The new issue of Newsweek announces “A Decline in Bloodshed” in Iraq and asks:
The crucial question is, why? Administration spokesmen have publicly attributed the decline in violence to the success of the administration’s troop “surge” policies as well as military operations against Al Qaeda in Iraq. Other factors include improvements to Iraqi security forces and growing revulsion among Sunni tribal leaders over jihadi attacks on their communities. The decline in Iranian-backed violence is harder to explain—and despite the new data, some officers on the ground in Baghdad still aren’t buying it.
Perhaps Newsweek would like to take a few reporting tips from Hubris Sonic and Red Dan at The Group News Blog – they have analyzed the real data (go to their post for the charts):
No, what we are seeing here is a shell game. The violence is not dropping. Its ending. It’s ending wherever we withdraw from and spiking were we are digging in. It only appears to drop because violence in Al Anbar, Basra, Najaf, Karbala, Wasit, Dhiqar, etc, etc, has ended. This drop obscures the spike in Baghdad.
This information shows a trend up in the Baghdad region and shows that Iraq does not devolve into civil war when the US pulls out. Does not let al Qaeda take over in their absence. In fact the complete opposite, the local security forces quickly run to ground AQI and end them. It seems once the US forces leave the area the score settling and inter-tribal violence ends. Life seems cheap with tanks and machine guns on every corner. Remove those visual and physical reminders and people work out their differences with something other than a pistol and a power-drill. So when some tells you we have to stay, ask them why.
This is a very important analysis but I would add that the spike in Baghdad is not simply caused by “those visual and physical reminders” but by the actions of the “dug in” US forces – just look at what happened overnight in Sadr City:
Two toddlers have been killed by US air strikes which left another 13 people dead and at least 69 wounded in a Shi’ite stronghold of the Iraqi capital, Baghdad.
As doctors treated wounded men and boys, the bodies of the two young children, one in a nappy, lay on crumpled blankets in the morgue of Imam Ali hospital in Sadr City – the main stronghold in Baghdad for the Mehdi Army, a Shi’ite militia loyal to cleric Moqtada al-Sadr.
Clouds of black smoke rose from Sadr City as sirens wailed, heavy gunfire echoed and US attack helicopters circled overhead, according to television reports.
A visibly-upset man held up a photo of one of the dead children in a house where one of the toddlers lived and pointed to bloodstained mattresses and blood-splattered pillows.
Outside the house, a woman said: “We were waking in the morning and all of a sudden rockets landed in the house and the children were screaming.”
The US military claimed to be unaware of civilian casualties and said:
The statement by the US military said: “Coalition forces estimate that 49 criminals were killed in three separate engagements during this operation.”
The Iraqi government is very aware of these deaths – and is protesting the use of excessive force:
Iraqi government spokesman Ali al-Dabbaugh says Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki quickly called in the U.S. commander in Iraq, General David Petraeus.
He says during their meeting, the prime minister filed a formal protest against what is seen in Baghdad as a use of excessive force.
“You cannot kill the civilians in this way,” said Ali al-Dabbaugh. “I do understand there are a lot of people violating our law and then you have criminals. But do not use the power this way.”
And so we have a rather simple logic puzzle here: If the data shows that violence in Iraq goes down, in fact virtually ceases, when US troops leave an area – and spikes, as it is doing in Baghdad, when US troop presence surges – and if your goal is ending the violence – then QED: Leave.
——————————–
Take a moment to check the NYT Video OpEd today from the directors of Meeting Resistance – it’s important. I’ve sent the filmakers a note to see if they can visit with us sometime soon. Meanwhile, check the listing of screenings – this is a must see.
Photo: Ajeel Ali, second left, is comforted by friends after his brother, Ismael, 10, was killed in an overnight raid in the Shiite enclave of Sadr City in Baghdad, Iraq on Sunday, Oct. 21, 2007. (AP Photo/Adil al-Khazali)
Extra big h/t to Jane for the link to The Group News Blog!
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Siun! Belated Hippo Birdies!
Hi Siun! Thank you for this.
13 Iraqi civilians were killed in the Sadr city atrocity. War crimes, done in our name.
Very interesting…spotlight material for sure…
Dang, 49 killed in a raid in Sadr City this morn… Serious fuckery! 8-(
And let’s not forget that the people of Fallujah STILL have to walk everywhere, and that (per Juan Cole) a car ban has just been instituted in Mosul as well…..
It looks like we’re back to the discredited realm of doing body counts, i.e., any dead body is obviously a hostile, therefore no civilian casualties, all dead are bad people. /s
Evening everyone – and thanks for all the great birthday greets!
The charts and analyses over at Hubris Sonic’s and Red Dan’s place are pretty compelling.
dakine01 @ 6
Especially since, if you’re bombing an occupied territory, you are breaking international law, which makes those dead children damned inconvenient….
Doesn’t matter. We’re winning.
Hubris Sonic is also the author of my favorite comment of all time:
http://sadlyno.com/archives/00…..ment-49373
Which won’t make sense to everyone but if you get it, it’s funny as shit.
Thanks, Siun, great post — and that op-ed at the NYT says it all: occupation is the source of all the trouble.
Until the United States gives up its impossible imperial mission, this nightmare (for the Iraqis) is not going to end. We are seeing old-style imperialism of the kind that mostly went out of style around 1914. The US is just a century late, though we did manage to keep up with the Europeans in the Phillipines.
Excellent Post, Siun! Here’s what I had read about it:
By Christian Berthelsen, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
12:44 PM PDT, October 21, 2007
BAGHDAD — U.S. forces engaged in a major gun battle with militants during an early morning raid in the Shiite district of Sadr City today and may have killed as many as 49 people. The Iraqi government said many of the victims were civilians, but the U.S. insisted only “criminals” were killed.
A bit OT, but related to the war: the number of killed soldiers has gone down, and there are many reasons for it war-strategy wise, but one of the main reasons is because the Bushies days are dwindling, too. The fundamental power afforded the unitary executive is conducting war. According to the Bushies, once war is declared, the executive has unfettered power over the rest of the government, and the governed. No war, less power. Plus, not mutually exclusive with Iraq, the Bushies need to bolster their propoganda to invade Iran.
I was so glad Jane pointed me to Hubris Sonic and Red Dan’s post and charts – they are so important.
There are also several more photos from the attack on Sadr City still on Yahoo News Photos (they cycle off as new ones are added so links do not last for long) and one haunted me too much to use for the post – but I do wish the Newsweek reporters would take a close look: Photo of a toddler killed in Sadr City.
Jane Hamsher @ 11
it is indeed!
Baghdad provincial council has drawn up a ‘strategic plan’ to reconstruct the war-torn Iraqi capital, a statement by the council said.
The statement said the plan was prepared by provincial experts and would need $13 billion to be implemented.
http://www.azzaman.com/english…..fname=news2007-10-20leon1.htm
Unidentified gunmen have silenced another top Iraqi scientist, the Ministry of Higher Education and Scientific Research has said.
Local newspapers now point the finger at the so-called security contractors or mercenaries who flocked to Iraq in the wake of the 2003 U.S. invasion.
http://www.azzaman.com/english…..fname=news2007-10-21kurd.htm
Siun, our continued presence only makes sense in BushWorld. Wish I could take a look at history books 50 years from now.
(Thanks, OKK)
Teddy – good to see you …
and thank you and your wondrous fiance for the birthday dinner … it was a perfect evening!
With that friends, I have to run … dinner with work colleagues … back later.
Siun @ 21
Aloha, Siun!
CTuttle @ 14
So now we’ve made it criminal to be an Iraqi?
neurophius @ 23
Iraqi babes-in-arms, too! 8-(
neurophius @ 23
Criminal mothers and babies?
Bush logic:
We waterboard. We do not torture. Therefore waterboarding is not torture.
We only kill criminals. We killed women and children. Therefore the women and children must have been criminals.
neurophius @ 23
Well, it’s certainly criminal to be a dead Iraqi, that’s for sure.
neurophius @ 26
That’s the logic. Its criminal. The writing was on the wall with this guy. The press assured us that he was a fun guy. He didn’t need to be smart b/c he would surround himself with smart people.
OT, I don’t think so
If truth were told. I’d like to hear what Rep. Pete Stark has to say tomorrow.
raven @ 29
How about one nuclear power plant? Can they have that? I guess not.
They managed to kill three toddlers in Sadr city today. Here are two of them.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 30
Stark is a man who speaks with the courage of his convictions and he tells the truth. More of this please.
raven,
OT but if you get a chance, pick up the latest Sports Illustrated (issue dated 10/22 with Tom Brady on the cover). Jack McCallum has a very poignant story about his best friend who was killed in Vietnam with parallels to a young man who was killed in Iraq and HIS best friend. A tough read but I think you’ll appreciate it.
Elliott @ 17
I don’t blog much, and the only blog site I come to is the Lake. So when I am directed to read other blogs, particularly supposedly “republican ” blogs, I am amazed at the overt mysoginism displayed (spelling was never my strong suit). It goes to my theory (shared with my friends/family): Men of the progressive slant are very comfortable with their “manliness”, never had a problem in the ladies department, and respect the lovely women in their life, and in general. That’s why the Dems have the Kennedys, the Kerrys, the Clintons, and others. They got laid, they had fun, and they were the bane of the modern republicans existence. Rove/Delay/Rush/Hannity? Mean-spirited, pissed off at the world, and it would not be a stretch to assume they never had any luck with the ladies in high school or college, if they even went to college. It goes back to that. Jane is hot, and all of those righty dorks at that blog can only DREAM that Jane would give them the time of day, so the Rovian/Delay/Rush tactics. I don’t hate those guys, I just feel sorry for them.
raven @ 29
Do they just run his speeches through Word’s find/replace function, replacing Iran for Iraq?
dakine01 @ 36
Thanks, will do. My wife and I are still slogging our way through “The War”.
When the Great Surge Forward fails to do the trick,
we can expect more “stab in the back” cr*p like this
gem from Cal Thomas.
The Dems had better be prepared to deal with stuff like this;
they seem to be under the impression that We Are All in This Together.
Erdla @ 33
Horrible beyond words. Hearts and minds.
I watched a few minutes of Cheneys latest speech on cspan this afternoon.
Two showers later and I still cannot scrub the darkness off. The man has got be stopped now.
hackworth @ 35
I can appreciate Scarecrow’s point last night that it distracts from the message but I’m glad Stark said it and I look forward to others expressing themselves who are suffering from what George Will refers to as “the derangement of Bush Hatred.”
It’s really weird. For several years George W. Bush has through his actions, been killing children in Iraq. He is the prime suspect in multiple murders. Yet, he wanders free, even from impeachment. That’s the nub of it.
Happy belated B-Day, Siun – and great post.
What Teddy said.
.
Re: “Meeting Resistance” Film
Amy Goodman of Democracy NOW! interviewed the filmmakers last week. Here’s the link: http://preview.tinyurl.com/32qdod
***
There is also an intelligent pair of video segments at Real News regarding Blackwater in Iraq and the British evacuating Basra and leaving that city in the hands of the enemies of democracy, yet another irony in our strategery in Iraq: http://www.therealnews.com/web…..episode=65
Perhaps Left Blogistan needs a “For His Amusement” day in support of Congressman Stark, when we all post about the things, like this raid, that amuse our President.
dakine01 @ 34
Here’s a link to the article. Thanks. I could write a third about Andy Stein. He was a great gymnast who went to Oklahoma on a scholarship and then bailed out and joined the corps. We were not best friends, just really good friends. His yellow VW was called “the Virile Volks”. I was down south in Vietnam when he got killed on Operation Meade River. I dedicated my dissertation to him about 10 years ago. The whole deal is fucked.
hackworth @ 33
There are three kinds of people in this world. Those who make things happen, those who watch things happen and those who ask, “what happened?”
For those who inadvertently missed Rep. Pete Stark’s comments about the spineless Republican sniveling whores who support The Imperial Pretender’s bloody amusements in Iraq, this is the link to his House well comments.
As to what Stark will say tomorrow, I hope it is more of the same. We need to start to stomp on the toes of these Republican bully boys with their endless schemes to destroy America. We need to make these feral Federal pigs squeal. And what this nation certainly does not need is a plutocrat bimbo from San Francisco carrying water for the fascist junta that has stolen our White House.
It’s time to take our country back!
Ray Duray @ 48
The above comment would be more effective if you deleted the “bimbo” remark.
TeddySanFran @ 48
(((((TeddySF)))))
TeddySanFran @ 46
I like that idea!
No reporting on what Petraeus said in response?
It’s a case of a rump gov’t vs. a toady general, neither very effective in the present situation in Iraq, both dependents of the Washington Junta.
I’m sure the highly offensive published statement coming out the Pentagon about the latest slaughter in Sadr City was contrived by some toady in the VP office. Someone should find out exactly who. More light needs to be shined on the actual culprits in this unfolding catastrophe.
I think, at least as far as Iraq is concerned, that George W. Bush is a perverted son of a bitch.
There are two “deciders”. The Prez and the Speaker (something is not on the table).
Erdla @ 32
Dear God,
Please stop this. I have kids and can’t imagine the pain of a parent losing a child. These Holy Innocents are your children.
As we’ve gotten older we have seen things and experienced things like death and divorce, malignant and miscarriage, IEDs and KIAs.
We have some objections — or at least some questions that make us wonder about your goodness and greatness. This senseless killing is done in our country’s name and is a result of policies by people who profess their faith in you.
Someone that you care about is dead today and their family is permanently damaged; heartbroken. It seems to me that grace is absent. I ask you today to restore belief in your grace and stop this madness…at least for the children.
It’s in Your Good Name that I ask.
Amen.
If someone is responsible for killing hundreds of children, can we then refer to that person as ‘perverted’?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 54
But if she wanted to, she could in deed and in fact IMPEACH the crooks.
How many kids are tonight crying in the crevices and corners of the streets of Iraq with no mothers and fathers?
At last 60 Minutes on the west coast! Valerie Plame is beautifully photogenic – first time in memory mrbrat is watching this show with me. Who doesn’t love Ambassador & Mrs. Plane-Wilson.
newspaperbrat @ 59
Doesn’t this story rate an entire 60 minutes? Is it too much to ask Katie Couric to bring America current on Traitorgate?
newspaperbrat @ 59
Plame, sweetie…!!! ;-)
newspaperbrat @ 59
Scooter Libby, Karl Rove and Dick Cheney.
You don’t have to imagine it this woman collapsed outside the morgue in Sadr city while she was waiting to collect her son’s body.
Perhaps in fairness we should perhaps observe that the president is sending our kids (American soldiers) not just Iraqi children to their deaths.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 64
The president is sending our kids to kill Iraqi kids. Some American kids have died in the process, but not nearly the number of Iraqi kids who’ve been killed and orphaned.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 53
you are quite right about that, O.K. . .
but today, i found myself wondering, aloud,
in fact, just which of these two guys is the
ACTUAL president — and which is the VICE
president?
doesn’t the vice president do all the trivial
stuff [not that spotted owls and fishing on
that espn show is trivial, or anything!],
while the president makes foreign policy
speeches and junk?!
i sure thought so — until today.
i guess they got the order of names
mixed-up on the ticket [backwards] in 2000.
and again, in 2004. . .
yeh. that explains it.
[cheney spent the day itching to blast iran,
in a very vitriolic, entirely fact-
light, speech.]
Hi pups -
Hurricane force winds are blasting across So Cal.
For the first time in my life, so many fires are breaking out so quickly that even LA’s fleet of newscopters can’t cover them all.
Oh – the bad news?
The winds are just getting started.
I always find myself listening to Phil Ochs or Bob Dylan – Soundtrack To Billy The Kid at some point during Sunday evenings with Siunshine.
Surprised to see Anderson Cooper on CBS – hope they make him an offer he can’t refuse.
Kirk –
I’m in Orange County and it’s really bad here. The smell of smoke is very heavy. It was really windy when we went out earlier. I am NOT looking forward to school tomorrow…the winds always make the students crazy and they’ll probably have to stay inside all day, which never helps. It will be asthma all around and prayers that the air conditioner on my little portable hangs in.
Good luck, Lea.
This is from the LA Times website (comments) – hope the fire is far from you.
With temps in the 90’s, the smoke pollution alone will kill this week.
Good luck to you and your students.
Lea – do you know where the Santiago Canyon fire is? we don’t have smoke yet, but Irvine Lake is about 12 miles from my house. the 241 is closed, as is Santiago Canyon Rd.
By the way despite killing all those people they didn’t manage to get the person they said they were after:
AFP: US forces kill 49 in Baghdad Shiite stronghold
kirk murphy @ 71
Evenin’ all !
Kirk and all our friends in California, please take care, those fires are a lot hotter and move a lot faster than you might think.
kirk murphy @ 67
Kirk did you read the LA Times today, the caption reads …
Kashan is a city in Esfahān province in Iran. Which in light of Cheney’s banging the wardrums again today may mean someone’s warning us considering that the Iranian nuclear technology center is in Esfahān province
I’m sure it’s all a coincidence, and it might be a tortured metaphor, but knowing the Bushies, somebody somewhere might be sending us a sign
Erdla @ 73
But but I thought reports said everyone killed was a criminal..
Goddess bless you Erdla and DU!
OldCoastie @ 72
I read earlier that it’s off of the toll road by Santiago Canyon and that they’re evacuating homes in Anaheim Hills. We’ve got a lot of smoke here in Costa Mesa, but that’s the way the winds are blowing.
Juan Cole (today’s blog http://www.juancole.com) has a different point of view on withdrawing US troops:
IMO this is not a good reason to stay, but it should be thought about.
Hi Old Coastie -
:(
This is also from the LAT comments..but over an hour and 15 min ago.
I hope you and your community don’t live downwind of that fire. This will be an awful night for anyone who does.
Valerie and Joe,
Thank You.
.
Duh! I should’ve clicked, of course you did ;-)
Lea (no uh) @ 77
kirk murphy @ 67
I see the flames in Ramona from my home.
thanks, Kirk – that is a pretty big area… Lea, here is the OC Register report…
’bout 10 miles from the house there… winds seem to be blowing it down towards El Toro Marine Air Station at this moment… if the winds shift to blowing from the north, I’m fucked. At least if it blows down on the old base, it won’t be hard to fight (if its not in the canyons). A little less fuel down that way.
Lea (no uh) @ 70
Lea! Haven’t seen you for a long while. How’s your class this year?
Are these winds Santa Ana (east) or off the ocean?
Lea and Old Coastie,
Hope you can join us for the meet-up on Nov. 3rd at noon.
Placentia Ave.
Costa Mesa
no worries, john – thanks for educating us about Iran – which I fervently hope will not suffer firestorms (and worse) from our weapons.
Eureka Springs @ 86
Santa Anas always blow from the east or the north east – very VERY dry, violent winds…
OldCoastie @ 84
Thanks…here’s another one. Stay safe…do you have somewhere to go if it shifts toward you?
new thread upstairs
Cole consistently ignores that the majority of attacks are on the invading American forces, he consistently ignores the fact that Sadr’s fighters fought alongside the Sunni fighters in both Ramadi and Fallujah. I have a certain amount of difficulty believing that he makes that argument in good faith.
newdealfarmgrrrlll @ 91
‘n i got the zed :D
ES, they are Santa Ana winds – the strongest im living memory.
Old Coastie, this is from the ABC-7 site: the fire jumped the toll road.
(good map on the site)
Lea (no uh) @ 90
yup… I’m easy – grab the dogs and the ‘puter – the house is going to have to fend for itself… my big problem is OldMother – 88 years old and not exactly calm in emergencies… she’s about a half mile from me and hopefully she won’t want to sort photos at the very last second.
;-)
Thanks, OC. I didn’t realize they could have a northern slant. I was watching a 49ers game at Candlestick, brushing ashes off of me every couple of minutes.. when Berkeley and Oakland burned in the 90’s..
Think I will call my friends in Costa Mesa now.
ES, they are Santa Ana winds – the strongest in living memory.
Old Coastie, this is from the ABC-7 site: the fire jumped the toll road.
(Great map on the OC site – thanks for the link)
Hi mods – if you could disappear my 94, that would be great – it was not ready for prime time.
thanks, Kirk… I can’t quite remember where the Bee Canyon Rd. is… pshhew! 241 is a wide-ass toll road! usually it is a pretty good firebreak!
Lea – KCAL 9 has continuing fire live fire coverage.
TeddySanFran @ 60
You so funny, TeddySanFran. We The People do not get to ask Katie Couric anything. She gets to dictate reality to us as her bosses see fit. I thought it was a marvelously deceitful thing that Couric did early on in the interview, when she said that Ms. Plame’s book was published by “Simon and Schuster, owned by CBS”. Yet another half-truth from the greatest dead weight among evening news anchors. Actually, when it comes to submerging the truth, the image fits Katie like this non-John Danforth.
It turns out that Simon & Schuster is actually owned as a sub-subsidiary by the aptly titled “National Amusements”.
I’m sure there’s a joke in here somewhere, I’ll keep diving for it…
And voila, up rises another example of the wonderously incestuous relationships among our elites.
hackworth @ 28
…
The writing was on the wall with this guy [ Bush ]. The press assured us that he was a fun guy. He didn’t need to be smart b/c he would surround himself with smart people.
Damn Liberal press.
A bit of a caveat; bush is frantically buying off the Sunni tribes in Anbar, and supplying the once-and-future insurgents there with small arms and cash, as incentives to go after Al Queada.
That explains the reduction in violence there. The rest of the towns, there have been very few, or none, american troops in them. That explains the “reduction” in our casualties there.
Our troops are concentrated in and around Baghdad. That’s where practically the entire surge went. And it has worked, to some degree. But the problem is, as Juan Cole’s piece up-thread pointed out, when the lid comes off in the most heavily mixed Sunni-Shiite areas in Iraq, it’s highly likely that the shit will hit the fan.
I think we’re deluding ourselves if we think otherwise.
BUT, this is NOT a reason to stay.
The people in what used to be Iraq are going to have to decide for themselves if it’s more satisfying to have a full-on civil war, or if they want to make some huge compromises to avoid that…and they won’t make that decision while the U.S. military is occupying their country and playing one faction off against the other one, to try to buy time for the people who created this to get out of town and dump it on the democrats.
Because THAT is what is going on.
Here is what I hope will be remembered as the high point of Hillary Clinton’s campaign, as she becomes an electoral footnote.
Speaking in Davenport, Iowa on January 29th of this year, she said of bush:
“We expect him to extricate our country from this before he leaves office.”
And:
“It would be the height of irresponsiblity to pass the war along to the next commander-in-chief.”
Now, she’s talking about “inheriting” it.
That acceptance, evidently and sadly shared by Edwards and Obama, is very bad news for anyone who wants to see our part in this end.
At some point, they are all going to have talk about the specifics of any plan they have to get us out, and they are going to have to talk about what might follow.
Anything else, and they’re just bullshitting us with more bullshit.
Excuse me.
Something to watch for:
The first candidate, particularly among the “big three” who begins describing, loudly and repeatedly, what is happening in Iraq as nothing more than george bush and the republicans trying to string it out long enough to get out from under it and dump idt on the next administration.
When we see that, it just MIGHT mean that we have found our candidate.
The rub is, it probably, but not certainly, needs to be one of the current front-runners. And of course, it needs to be someone who thinks that invading Iraq was, flatly, a mistake.
Thank you Siun! Just catching up here after 4 hours away from the Lake.
Hippo birdies and welcome back!
As to your nice summary, do you suppose Hillary and Barack have gotten the memo yet? Gov. Richardson apparently got the memo at least 6 months ago, and yet people have been scoffing at him for the whole time, saying it can’t be done.
Obviously, Hillary and Barack have been drinking the Washington kool-aid for too long, because Bush has convinced them that something really terrible will happen if the president now or later pulls the plug. And they apparently believe him.
What passes for leadership in the Democratic Party also seems to believe him, too, because they are all Deathly Afraid of stopping the blank checks they are sending to Bush to keep troops in Iraq. I mean, are they all zombies?
Memo to DLC Democrats: Wake up!!!
Bob in HI
TeddySanFran @ 60
What, and deny our rightwing bretheren the talking point that the whole story is just “Valerie hyping her book?”
On the Sadr City story, this morning NPR ran a report that was a rare case of them almost openly calling out the military briefers who put out the “49 criminals” story. (Boy is that close to Ali Baba and the 40 Thieves, a popular metaphor for bullshitting in that part of the world.)
The reporter took great care to express quote marks around the word “criminals” every single time he used it, and also gave the details from Iraqi witnesses on who (children, old ladies, and other folk at home or about their business) and how many (fewer than 40 or 49, actually) were killed and wounded. There is no way to have heard his report and not treated the official story with skepticism.
Unfortunately, since the report was not a feature but just part of the hourly summary, I haven’t been able to find it on the NPR site.
How would you improve the welfare of the planet and human race?
“A hungry world will also hunger for scapegoats. A thirsty world will thirst for revenge. A world in crisis will be a world of anger and violence and terrorism.”
This person’s answer the question I posed can be found
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…../183131/33
The same person supports an immediate end to the US intervention in Iraq. Read
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..68860.html
Let me say first that we need to leave Iraq completely and we need to pay reparations for all the horror we have inflicted. So what will happen in Iraq when the Americans leave? Who in Iraq needs to be brought into the equation? How is this announced? Do we just pack our bags and go? I think we should begin to verbalize how we envision this in order to make this happen in the best way for all concerned.
What if your goal is to maximize the profits for munitions manufacturers and mercenary contractors?
Harry Lime @ 108
Maybe I could be persuaded to go into a different line of work? Or perhaps the munitions manufacturers and mercenary contractors could be persuaded to go into a different line of work?
MLS @ #107: You be’s right. In the debate on leaving, for we progressives, because of our frustration and anger at what bush has created, there is this tendency to ignore what might happen when we’re gone, and it’s reflected in that (to me, erroneous) assumption that THEN, “kumbayah” will kick in.
It may, or it may not, but several things ARE practically certain:
Fact: Iran is going to come out of this with much enhanced power in the region and the world, and regarding this, I think that one of our candidates could make political hay of the fact that this was a dead lock from the moment that first tank crossed the Kuwait border. It was inherent in what george bush did, and now, he and his little coterie want to drag us into a mid-east war (if we’re lucky) in which to enfold and “hide” the original monumental fuckup.
Fact: The Saudis are way-pissed at the idea of a Shiite petro-combine between Iran and whichever Shiites gain control of those fields in and around Basra Province, with their 80% of Iraq’s proven reserves. They want no competitors for the King-of-the-petroleum-hill crown;, and the next president, no matter whom it is, is going to face policies, that is, hands on the oil-tap, from the House of Saud that will be decidely less user-friendly to americans. In fact, if a democrat gets elected, you can pretty much count on the Saudis doing a “Jimmy Carter” on he or she.
Fact: The situation with the Kurds has no solution. It too, will be the “gift” that keeps on giving, as a result of bush’s savage idiocy in wrecking the status quo there. The Kurds don’t care a fig about “greater Iraq”, and when our troops leave that will become VERY apparent. Of course, Talabani’s offer of “good basing opportunities” is perpetual, given the situation with the Turks, and either bush, or the next president, is almost certain to take him up on it.
Fact: Assuming, or even hoping for, the Sunni and Shia in the midlands around Baghdad to put their AK-47’s back in their respective closets, is whistling past the graveyard. Period. Exclamation point.
As I see it, these are generally the most compelling factors of the denouement that’s coming from what these retardo Machaivellis have created. There are others, some of them, unforeseeable.
I understand that candidates, and parties, don’t get elected by telling voters “we’re screwed, whatever we do. Bush can’t “fix” this, and neither can we.”
For what it’s worth, we have to keep pointing out that it was bush and the GOP who shit the bed; they don’t know how to UNSHIT it… and neither do we, but that doesn’t make it our fault.
All that’s possible is for us to end the occupation; try to keep any neighboring countries from invading to grab the oil, and hope that the Iraqi’s will decide that a full-on civil war will be to the detriment of all concerned.
We have to deal with the bushturds retreating to their last foxhole, which is “it’s going to get worse if we drawdown.”
But when they throw that out as the reason for sustaining the shitmire, there HAS to be an immediate Beethoven’s Ninth, chorus of:
“And whose fucking fault is THAT, that we’re stuck with this miserable Hobson’s choice???”
That’s one of the things that pisses me off so much. When Cheyney, etc., start warning sonorously about the need to “do” Iran, the fucking MSM bobble-heads haven’t got the courage to say:
“Yeah, right. You’re the assholes who brewed up the first batch of koolaid and bullshit, and now you’re trying to funnelfeed more of it to us. Your track-record sucks. Fuck you.”
Same as ever; gonna be one hell of a year.
Jane Hamsher @ 8
Dammit, Jane, you’re smarter than this. I don’t read Siun’s stuff regularly enough to know if she is, but dammit, you are.
Their charts are of U.S. troop fatalities. All their charts show is that when U.S. troops pull out of an area, U.S. troop fatalities there drop to zero. Red Dan clarifies that in the comments, but it was hard to interpret the charts any other way.
IOW, their charts have no connection with their conclusion. They prove nothing that isn’t trivial.
Chalk this one up under “too good to be true,” anyway. It would be extremely great news if it were true, but that’s exactly the sort of thing that should send one’s bullshit sniffer into overdrive.