Hello everyone. Somewhat popular blogger tbogg here.

Today we welcome Bob Harris who blogs at….wait for it :bobharris.com , and is the author of Prisoner of Trebekistan: A Decade in Jeopardy! as well as todays featured book, Who Hates Whom.

Let’s see if Bob is fashionably late….

Hey Tom — hello… is this thing on? Thanks for having me!

Hi there, Tbogg. Welcome, Bob.

Hi you two!

Btw, I would like to say before we start that I am baffled and humbled to find my book on the Lake’s calendar sandwiched between no less than Paul Krugman and Valerie Plame. I am not worthy.

Hi, Tbogg, Hi Bob!

Are there any women’s groups organized to hate?

So…Bob

While everyone is getting settled into their chairs and cracking open a nice frosty Zima, would you like to give us the back story behind Who Hates Whom?

TBogg, that intro is brilliant. I’ve enjoyed reading Who Hates Whom, and “National Brotherhood Week” came to mind more than once while doing so.

(Here’s a YouTube of NBW)

TBogg and Bob Harris! What a combination. Are you guys going to alert us to put saran wrap over our keyboards and screens?

Not to my knowledge as I think you and I would define it, although there are certainly no shortage of fundamentalist groups of all stripes which would consider fighting for women’s equality a form of organized hatred of god, tradition, etc. So I would say no, with some certainty — but there are surely many millions of people with different belief systems who would say yes.

Dammit.

TeddySanFran @ 6

Hi, Tbogg, Hi Bob!

Are there any women’s groups organized to hate?

The People’s Front of Judea had women members.

Bob, can you talk some about the point you make early on in “Who Hates Whom” — that humans are essentially the same the world over, not just in good ways but in bad ones? What convinces you of that, and what are the implications for strategies to make the world a slightly nicer place?

Oh — I see I need to start quoting whomever I respond to. My bad.

Welcome tbogg! Welcome Bob!

For the record and without any details, who does hate whom? Or does everybody just hate everybody? (Except for the DFHs and pacifists who love everybody, honest)

Slightly OT, there was a DJ in the Boston area who used to play a song every so often to fit his mood. About the only words were, “F*ck Everybody.”

tbogg @ 7

So…Bob

While everyone is getting settled into their chairs and cracking open a nice frosty Zima, would you like to give us the back story behind Who Hates Whom?

Basically, it was an offhand comment made to a book editor in NY that took up a year of my life. I was pitching ideas after Prisoner of Trebekistan had come out, and nothing stuck, and literally at the end of the meeting, getting up to head for the elevator, I was resigned to spending some time traveling and thinking up an idea, when I made a comment sort of mourning the lack of any guidebook to the world’s hotspots, something I would find handy.

A year later, it has covers and pictures and stuff.

I loved the book. It’s one of those books you give to a friend who really likes that you blog but thinks you might as well be writing in Chinese because unless someone follows the details of a story they get lost when trying to jump in in the middle. It’s really entertaining and thus inviting, smart but not intimidating, and after you read it you feel like you learned a lot and didn’t have to suffer for it.

Should’ve grabbed more at the SteveAudio party. With Christmas coming and all.

Are there any women’s groups organized to hate?

Only the literary Ellen Jamesians.

Sorry, Bob. Go ahead…

Hello, Bob. I’ve been reading your blog since the ‘04 Semiapocalypse, bought Trebekistan for my best friend last Christmas and will probably follow suit with Who Hates Whom this year. Ever since Douglas Adams died, it’s basically been you and Joss Whedon whose writing has most consistently rekindled my faith in human decency. So you might say I’m a bit of a fan.

This is obviously a slightly depressing topic, so with your permission, I’d like to get an early question in with a (potentially) uplifting answer: have any of these conflicts actually ended since the book went to the publisher?

Jon @ 12

Bob, can you talk some about the point you make early on in “Who Hates Whom” — that humans are essentially the same the world over, not just in good ways but in bad ones? What convinces you of that, and what are the implications for strategies to make the world a slightly nicer place?

As I say in the book, after spending many months doing virtually nothing but immersing myself in wars all over the world, I really have come to the conclusion that the idealistic notion usually expressed as “We’re All One” or similar is really true, with a caveat. This One is generally incredibly kind and compassionate toward others perceived as similar and familiar, but capable of being a murderous jerk outside the circle.

I really assumed for some reason that wars would have obviously different characters and rationales — maybe economic conflicts play out differently than religious ones or so on. If so, I couldn’t see it. And the main trigger, over and over, seems to be an irrational sense of rightness — our religion, our culture, our language, our economic destiny, etc. I have come to believe that unjustified certainty is the most dangerous thing on this earth.

Humans? What’s not to love?

Mutual gratification is the basis of all relationships. If you don’t get what you want out of a relationship, it goes sour. What there is in the place of what you call a `loving relationship’ is hate. When everything fails, we play the last card in the pack, and that is `love’. But love is fascist in its nature, in its birth, in its expression and in its action. It cannot do us any good.

Jane Hamsher @ 16

I loved the book. It’s one of those books you give to a friend who really likes that you blog but thinks you might as well be writing in Chinese because unless someone follows the details of a story they get lost when trying to jump in in the middle. It’s really entertaining and thus inviting, smart but not intimidating, and after you read it you feel like you learned a lot and didn’t have to suffer for it.

Should’ve grabbed more at the SteveAudio party. With Christmas coming and all.

Oh, wow. Thank you very much. Success! Whee!

Jane Hamsher @ 16

I loved the book. It’s one of those books you give to a friend who really likes that you blog but thinks you might as well be writing in Chinese because unless someone follows the details of a story they get lost when trying to jump in in the middle. It’s really entertaining and thus inviting, smart but not intimidating, and after you read it you feel like you learned a lot and didn’t have to suffer for it.

For example, Bob wrote this in trying to explain the difficulties in Germany after the Berlin Wall came down:

“Unfortunately, the sudden assimilation of 17 million people — many poor, housed in crumbling cities, and culturally estranged — ain’t easy. (Imagine the U.S. suddenly declaring Mexico the 51st state; this overstates the case wildly, but it’s a fun start.) The once-booming West now had to carry the developing East.”

Writing like this is why I loved the book, too.

Jane Hamsher @ 16

I loved the book. It’s one of those books you give to a friend who really likes that you blog but thinks you might as well be writing in Chinese because unless someone follows the details of a story they get lost when trying to jump in in the middle. It’s really entertaining and thus inviting, smart but not intimidating, and after you read it you feel like you learned a lot and didn’t have to suffer for it.

Should’ve grabbed more at the SteveAudio party. With Christmas coming and all.

Sort of like Alice’s Restaurant, only in book form?

Reminds me of Monty Python’s Life of Brian.

Kaelri @ 18

Hello, Bob. I’ve been reading your blog since the ‘04 Semiapocalypse, bought Trebekistan for my best friend last Christmas and will probably follow suit with Who Hates Whom this year. Ever since Douglas Adams died, it’s basically been you and Joss Whedon whose writing has most consistently rekindled my faith in human decency. So you might say I’m a bit of a fan.

This is obviously a slightly depressing topic, so with your permission, I’d like to get an early question in with a (potentially) uplifting answer: have any of these conflicts actually ended since the book went to the publisher?

Wow. Thanks. The comparison to Joss is way appreciated. I’m a huge fan of his. I won’t get into how this happened here, but he was actually the fourth person in the world to read Trebekistan, and when he and my family liked it, I frankly never cared very much what any reviewer had to say thereafter. Joss good. Joss knows stuff. Me like Joss lots.

As to your question about any of the wars ending… hmm… nothing that was raging as of six months ago (when the book was basically finished) has particularly quieted, the short answer as far as I can tell is no. But a lot of things that looked likely to kablooie worse in the meantime haven’t. So, we’ll call it even.

Bob, did you leave out an acknowledgment somewhere?

The chapter “Bonus Stress: How to start a war in ten easy steps” sounds like it might have been written by Don Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, or David Addington as part of a briefing book for Bush.

I think a classic case of what the hell is wrong with people can be found in Bob’s recounting of the battle for the Siachen Glacier in Kashmir. This is an example of humanity at its most absurd.

As I say in the book, after spending many months doing virtually nothing but immersing myself in wars all over the world, I really have come to the conclusion that the idealistic notion usually expressed as “We’re All One” or similar is really true, with a caveat. This One is generally incredibly kind and compassionate toward others perceived as similar and familiar, but capable of being a murderous jerk outside the circle.

Andre Malraux made a similar point in “Man’s Fate”, a superb novel.

Hi Mr. Harris. Your book addresses a fascinating subject. I’ll be sure to pick up a copy. Do you address the Hurricane Katrina Debacle and its fallout in your book? Thousands of urban blacks were displaced from NO, never to return. That fact and the GOP’s covert (and overt) stoking of the embers of (pre-existing) racism were apparently just the right combination needed to win the guber seat in LA.

Also are you related to John Harris? I liked his book – The End Of Faith.

neokneme @ 20

Humans? What’s not to love?

Mutual gratification is the basis of all relationships. If you don’t get what you want out of a relationship, it goes sour. What there is in the place of what you call a `loving relationship’ is hate. When everything fails, we play the last card in the pack, and that is `love’. But love is fascist in its nature, in its birth, in its expression and in its action. It cannot do us any good.

Wow. I couldn’t disagree more strongly. Not idealizing some romantic notion of love in any form (filial, erotic, general humanity, etc.), either. There’s simply a vested interest in doing good that seems pretty hard-wired in people. On the crudest biological basis, we get a little jolt of serotonin just from hugging others, and that even the least romantic understanding of Pavlovian response would lead to an understanding of how humans could tend to like to be good to each other, often in quantity.

And it also doesn’t take much to see that humans have formed groups in which to provide mutual care in pretty much any society you care to look at, anywhere, anywhen.

People generally like holding babies, even when not their own, and making them smile. Call it whatever you like, but it clearly helps us survive, and the word “love” isn’t far off from the emotional response triggered by the interaction.

“Fascist” wouldn’t be the first word that springs to mind.

So step into a world of death, destruction, tribal jealousies, corruption, violence, scorched earth policies, family disputes

Thought maybe we were discussing right wing blogs.

Greetings Bob and tbogg! Wonderful book.

Re groups hating each other, I was recently at a surgical conference dinner with a German, a Finn, a Russian, a Ukrainian, and a Soviet Georgian. Some interesting undercurrents there.

Seems like it might be to the benefit of certain powers to make current hostilities worse, in order to take advantage of the situation, sell arms to both sides, grab resources, etc. Sure hope we would never do that.

Peterr @ 26

Bob, did you leave out an acknowledgment somewhere?

The chapter “Bonus Stress: How to start a war in ten easy steps” sounds like it might have been written by Don Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, or David Addington as part of a briefing book for Bush.

I actually wrote that bit in a very foul mood. I had just spent about a solid week studying the civil wars in what’s now called the Dem. Rep. of Congo, and the way they interlocked with the conflicts in Uganda, Rwanda, and elsewhere. This is the bloodiest set of conflicts on the planet since WWII, by a wide, wide margin. To this day, more people are probably dying from the aftermath every day than from all the hot wars in the world combined. And this is all very recent, and yet it’s virtually absent from our news. So that particular night, there was some self-serving talking head on the TV talking about our fine commitment to human rights around the globe, and the anchorhead was nodding sagely. And what I was feeling right that minute came out as that chapter.

I particularly liked:

Tossing complex, violent agendas into giant bin called terrorism is both lazy and dangerous. Instead, let’s force ourselves to use specifics: “national rebels” or “drug-financed paramilitary death squads” or “sex-crazed vegetarian pacifists.” Speaking of which, not enough sex-crazed vegetarian pacifists are invading people. I checked.

No we’re just dhimmi who want to give away the farm and unconditionally surrender in the War Against Terrah. Not “real men” like Victor Davis Hanson, who wants to climb on the roof and “thin out the neighborhood” with a rifle and scope.

(sorry, TBogg allusion there)

I think it also worth noting that nobody ever went broke fostering hatred amongst a normally sane group of people against another group. Although historical examples abound, one need not look any further than a certain drug-addled radio personality.

For some ‘hatred’ is a career opportunity.

Bob Harris @ 30

neokneme @ 20

Humans? What’s not to love?

Wow. I couldn’t disagree more strongly. Not idealizing some romantic notion of love in any form (filial, erotic, general humanity, etc.), either. There’s simply a vested interest in doing good that seems pretty hard-wired in people. On the crudest biological basis, we get a little jolt of serotonin just from hugging others, and that even the least romantic understanding of Pavlovian response would lead to an understanding of how humans could tend to like to be good to each other, often in quantity.

And it also doesn’t take much to see that humans have formed groups in which to provide mutual care in pretty much any society you care to look at, anywhere, anywhen.

People generally like holding babies, even when not their own, and making them smile. Call it whatever you like, but it clearly helps us survive, and the word “love” isn’t far off from the emotional response triggered by the interaction.

“Fascist” wouldn’t be the first word that springs to mind.

Any time I hear how humans are wired to hate, I just think of our smile.

as I read this
Earth Wind & Fire shuffled up on my player
That’s the Way of the World

I’d like to hear more about the sex crazed vegetarian pacifists – they sound like even more fun than EarthFirst! and pagans.

Do they have a chapter in SF?

hackworth @ 29

Hi Mr. Harris. Your book addresses a fascinating subject. I’ll be sure to pick up a copy. Do you address the Hurricane Katrina Debacle and its fallout in your book? Thousands of urban blacks were displaced from NO, never to return. That fact and the GOP’s covert (and overt) stoking of the embers of (pre-existing) racism were apparently just the right combination needed to win the guber seat in LA.

Also are you related to John Harris? I liked his book – The End Of Faith.

No relation to John, I’m afraid. “Bob Harris” is such a common name that the Renault car company’s ad men actually chose it as the quintessential US-sounding name for an American bachelor character they created for a major ad campaign in Colombia a few years ago. (You can find the ads on YouTube — the guy looks like Joe Lieberman and I had a love child.) Suddenly my inbox has hundreds of letters from lovelorn Colombian women, many with photos, with no explanation until I found out what Renault did with my name. Interesting times. So I have learned to assume that no Harris is ever related. As a result, I started watching a lot of Colombian TV via satellite, which will be relevant shortly.

As to Katrina, the book doesn’t touch on that debacle, unfortunately; it’s about global conflicts, noodling out exactly which faction is which in places like Kashmir, Somalia, etc.

But when Katrina happened, I watched the way it was reported elsewhere in the Americas — and I gotta tell you, watching news anchors in Colombia, Venezuela, and Peru expressing their complete shock and disbelief at how incredibly unable/unwilling the US was to provide for its own citizens… humbling, horrifying, all that.

Bob Harris @ 30

neokneme @ 20

Humans? What’s not to love?

Wow. I couldn’t disagree more strongly. Not idealizing some romantic notion of love in any form (filial, erotic, general humanity, etc.), either. There’s simply a vested interest in doing good that seems pretty hard-wired in people. On the crudest biological basis, we get a little jolt of serotonin just from hugging others, and that even the least romantic understanding of Pavlovian response would lead to an understanding of how humans could tend to like to be good to each other, often in quantity.

And it also doesn’t take much to see that humans have formed groups in which to provide mutual care in pretty much any society you care to look at, anywhere, anywhen.

People generally like holding babies, even when not their own, and making them smile. Call it whatever you like, but it clearly helps us survive, and the word “love” isn’t far off from the emotional response triggered by the interaction.

“Fascist” wouldn’t be the first word that springs to mind.

Bob, you’ve nailed it. The evolutionary biology (I can understand) of our altruism is quite powerful: the humans who help others have a better chance of having their own gonads live long enough to make babies.

We’re hard-wired to help each other – and that’s why such extensive brain washing is required to turn civilians into soldiers.

Now that I’ve been modelling cooperation – any leads on the SF chapter of the SCVP society?

egregious @ 31

So step into a world of death, destruction, tribal jealousies, corruption, violence, scorched earth policies, family disputes

Thought maybe we were discussing right wing blogs.

Greetings Bob and tbogg! Wonderful book.

Re groups hating each other, I was recently at a surgical conference dinner with a German, a Finn, a Russian, a Ukrainian, and a Soviet Georgian. Some interesting undercurrents there.

Back in Cleveland, I dated a Croatian girl once and introduced her to a Serbian friend over dinner.

I am obviously not very bright.

kirk murphy @ 38

Bob Harris @ 30

Wow. I couldn’t disagree more strongly. Not idealizing some romantic notion of love in any form (filial, erotic, general humanity, etc.), either. There’s simply a vested interest in doing good that seems pretty hard-wired in people. On the crudest biological basis, we get a little jolt of serotonin just from hugging others, and that even the least romantic understanding of Pavlovian response would lead to an understanding of how humans could tend to like to be good to each other, often in quantity.

And it also doesn’t take much to see that humans have formed groups in which to provide mutual care in pretty much any society you care to look at, anywhere, anywhen.

People generally like holding babies, even when not their own, and making them smile. Call it whatever you like, but it clearly helps us survive, and the word “love” isn’t far off from the emotional response triggered by the interaction.

“Fascist” wouldn’t be the first word that springs to mind.

Bob, you’ve nailed it. The evolutionary biology (I can understand) of our altruism is quite powerful: the humans who help others have a better chance of having their own gonads live long enough to make babies.

We’re hard-wired to help each other – and that’s why such extensive brain washing is required to turn civilians into soldiers.

Now that I’ve been modelling cooperation – any leads on the SF chapter of the SCVP society?

I thought that was San Francisco. My bad.

Bob Harris @ 30

“There’s simply a vested interest in doing good that seems pretty hard-wired in people.”

Thanks for the candid observation. Here’s a rebuttal…

The human being modeled after the perfect being has totally failed. The model has not touched anything there. Your value system is the one that is responsible for the human malady, the human tragedy, forcing everybody to fit into that model. So, what do we do? You cannot do anything by destroying the value system, because you replace one value system with another. Even those who rebelled against religion, like those in the Communist countries, have themselves created another kind of value system. So, revolution does not mean the end of anything. It is only a revaluation of our value system. So, that needs another revolution, and so on and so on. There is no way [out].

Survival is the focus, not altruism. What you’ve seen in your work must be the breakdown of both structures and barriers. Without either, the separation between people…individuals…is greatly reduced. The last barrier is the continuity of consciousness. Beyond that — there is no humanity left to keep us distinct from the world.

Of all the discussions in the book, I’m guessing that “Israel and Friends” was the most difficult to write. With everyone very touchy about word choices and whose grievance is older/bigger/deeper/etc., this had to have been a tough one.

Despite that, I think you managed to cover all the bases in ways that folks on each side would generally recognize their own point of view — and perhaps also learn a bit about how the other folks think.

(My favorite line in the chapter: “Incidentally, your ordinary Palestinian, the Yousef Sixpack who just wants a decent life, really does seem to have been totally screwed from pretty much all sides.”)

Bob Harris @ 19

Jon @ 12

Bob, can you talk some about the point you make early on in “Who Hates Whom” — that humans are essentially the same the world over, not just in good ways but in bad ones? What convinces you of that, and what are the implications for strategies to make the world a slightly nicer place?

As I say in the book, after spending many months doing virtually nothing but immersing myself in wars all over the world, I really have come to the conclusion that the idealistic notion usually expressed as “We’re All One” or similar is really true, with a caveat. This One is generally incredibly kind and compassionate toward others perceived as similar and familiar, but capable of being a murderous jerk outside the circle.

I really assumed for some reason that wars would have obviously different characters and rationales — maybe economic conflicts play out differently than religious ones or so on. If so, I couldn’t see it. And the main trigger, over and over, seems to be an irrational sense of rightness — our religion, our culture, our language, our economic destiny, etc. I have come to believe that unjustified certainty is the most dangerous thing on this earth.

Bob,

Isn’t ‘unjustified certainty’ about the same as (for North America) ‘American exceptionalism’, the idea that, well, you can certainly expand that better than I can. Did Americans’ conviction that we can do no wrong come up when you were writing the book? (Don’t have the book, so if it’s there, please excuse me.)

Jane Hamsher @ 33

I particularly liked:

Tossing complex, violent agendas into giant bin called terrorism is both lazy and dangerous. Instead, let’s force ourselves to use specifics: “national rebels” or “drug-financed paramilitary death squads” or “sex-crazed vegetarian pacifists.” Speaking of which, not nough sex-crazed vegetarian pacifists are invading people. I checked.

No we’re just “dhimmi” who want to give away the farm and unconditionally surrender in the War Against Terrah. Not “real men” like Victor Davis Hanson, who wants to climb on the roof and “thin out the neighborhood” with a rifle and a scope.

(sorry, TBogg allusion there)

Fourth pic down from Hillary.

Bob Harris @ 39

egregious @ 31

Thought maybe we were discussing right wing blogs.

Greetings Bob and tbogg! Wonderful book. [snip]

Back in Cleveland, I dated a Croatian girl once and introduced her to a Serbian friend over dinner.

I am obviously not very bright.

But you apparently have the capacity to learn from experience, which puts you far above most others.

tbogg @ 27

I think a classic case of what the hell is wrong with people can be found in Bob’s recounting of the battle for the Siachen Glacier in Kashmir. This is an example of humanity at its most absurd.

For those who aren’t familiar with this, the Siachen Glacier is about three miles up in the air and with virtually no strategic value. The only reason India and Pakistan never drew a line through it after previous wars was basically the assumption that no one on either side would be insane enough to try to fight over it.

You’ve already guessed this: now they’re fighting over it.

“Fighting” here, actually, means freezing, wasting hundreds of millions of dollars, and incurring casualties more through frostbite and altitude-related causes than armed conflict.

This is high on my list when people ask me what the most futile war on the planet might be.

btw, Pervez Musharraf was personally responsible for more than one raid on Siachen. Swell.

Bob Harris @ 39

egregious @ 31

Thought maybe we were discussing right wing blogs.

Greetings Bob and tbogg! Wonderful book.

Re groups hating each other, I was recently at a surgical conference dinner with a German, a Finn, a Russian, a Ukrainian, and a Soviet Georgian. Some interesting undercurrents there.

Back in Cleveland, I dated a Croatian girl once and introduced her to a Serbian friend over dinner.

I am obviously not very bright.

lmao!
I had a somewhat similar experience myself!

any thoughts on biophilia?

ifthethunderdontgetya @ 44

Jane Hamsher @ 33

I particularly liked:No we’re just “dhimmi” who want to give away the farm and unconditionally surrender in the War Against Terrah. Not “real men” like Victor Davis Hanson, who wants to climb on the roof and “thin out the neighborhood” with a rifle and a scope.

(sorry, TBogg allusion there)

Fourth pic down from Hillary.

That is funny.

Bob at 30

People generally like holding babies, even when not their own, and making them smile. Call it whatever you like, but it clearly helps us survive, and the word “love” isn’t far off from the emotional response triggered by the interaction.

In the early 90’s there was a meeting of heads of state, including kings and queens, from all over the world. Subject: the one thing everyone can agree on, making the world better for children.

For my own work in peacemaking I focus on medical care for young children in a way that brings current and former enemies together in common cause. In treating newborns with heart defects, there can be no enemy, only innocent children.

We are always especially happy when our Chechnyan patients live, the situation there is still dreadful.

Did Americans’ conviction that we can do no wrong come up when you were writing the book?

I know Bob will touch on this, but in a brief conversation I had with him, I was struck by how many proxy wars the United States has been behind, mostly because a foreign leader may have batted his eyes once in the Soviets direction…

Peterr @ 42

Of all the discussions in the book, I’m guessing that “Israel and Friends” was the most difficult to write. With everyone very touchy about word choices and whose grievance is older/bigger/deeper/etc., this had to have been a tough one.

Despite that, I think you managed to cover all the bases in ways that folks on each side would generally recognize their own point of view — and perhaps also learn a bit about how the other folks think.

(My favorite line in the chapter: “Incidentally, your ordinary Palestinian, the Yousef Sixpack who just wants a decent life, really does seem to have been totally screwed from pretty much all sides.”)

Thanks! And good call — yep, I saved Israel, Iraq, Afghanistan, and the other highest-flux areas for the end. The rationale for this was twofold: simple long-term low-level conflicts (Sri Lanka, say)would be less likely to change radically before publication, and working on those first might be instructive in understanding more complex conflicts with three or more sides all still blowing each other up.

But honestly? Dread played a part in the schedule. The amount of time spent trying to choose language that would be everyone without minimizing the degree of horror they’ve inflicted (and had inflicted on them), do so in a way that tells a coherent story, and then even find the odd absurdity to highlight… probably the hardest writing I’ve ever tried.

If it works at all, I’m relieved more than anything, truth be told.

egregious @ 49

Bob at 30

People generally like holding babies, even when not their own, and making them smile. Call it whatever you like, but it clearly helps us survive, and the word “love” isn’t far off from the emotional response triggered by the interaction.

In the early 90’s there was a meeting of heads of state, including kings and queens, from all over the world. Subject: the one thing everyone can agree on, making the world better for children.

For my own work in peacemaking I focus on medical care for young children in a way that brings current and former enemies together in common cause. In treating newborns with heart defects, there can be no enemy, only innocent children.

We are always especially happy when our Chechnyan patients lived, the situation there is still dreadful.

Republicans hate babies ergo… SCHIP veto.

Bob at 46

You’ve already guessed this: now they’re fighting over it.

“Fighting” here, actually, means freezing, wasting hundreds of millions of dollars, and incurring casualties more through frostbite and altitude-related causes than armed conflict.

A preview, sad to say, of the upcoming wars over resources and power over shipping lanes in the thawing Arctic and Antarctic. Countries are already making their chess moves.

behindthefall @ 43

Bob Harris @ 19

As I say in the book, after spending many months doing virtually nothing but immersing myself in wars all over the world, I really have come to the conclusion that the idealistic notion usually expressed as “We’re All One” or similar is really true, with a caveat. This One is generally incredibly kind and compassionate toward others perceived as similar and familiar, but capable of being a murderous jerk outside the circle.

I really assumed for some reason that wars would have obviously different characters and rationales — maybe economic conflicts play out differently than religious ones or so on. If so, I couldn’t see it. And the main trigger, over and over, seems to be an irrational sense of rightness — our religion, our culture, our language, our economic destiny, etc. I have come to believe that unjustified certainty is the most dangerous thing on this earth.

Bob,

Isn’t ‘unjustified certainty’ about the same as (for North America) ‘American exceptionalism’, the idea that, well, you can certainly expand that better than I can. Did Americans’ conviction that we can do no wrong come up when you were writing the book? (Don’t have the book, so if it’s there, please excuse me.)

Absolutely, although I didn’t hammer the point, since I thought it fairly self-evident.

It also comes up over and over in US history, too — like how the incredibly rapid Mexican-American war of the 1840s seems to have convinced a whole US generation of leaders, North and South, that military solutions really were a viable way to get what you want, if god’s on your side and all. The US Civil War followed shortly. Speaks for itself.

egregious @ 49

For my own work in peacemaking I focus on medical care for young children in a way that brings current and former enemies together in common cause. In treating newborns with heart defects, there can be no enemy, only innocent children.

Pity Graeme Frost didn’t have that experience. But even if it turns out that keeping innocent children alive isn’t a moral absolute, I’ll still keep hope that this affair has been the exception, and not a potential rule.

Jane Hamsher @ 48

ifthethunderdontgetya @ 44

Fourth pic down from Hillary.

That is funny.

Don’t know what I loved more:

hippy girl complete with unshaven legs, carrying the can of gasoline (really poor tradecraft, btw – no gloves)….

…or the owl flying along carrying dynamite.

Silly me – all these years of seeing devastated forests, and I’ve been mistaking “clearcuts” for the spotted owls’ demolition practice.

No wonder they’re going extinct.

tbogg @ 50

Did Americans’ conviction that we can do no wrong come up when you were writing the book?

I know Bob will touch on this, but in a brief conversation I had with him, I was struck by how many proxy wars the United States has been behind, mostly because a foreign leader may have batted his eyes once in the Soviets direction…

That’s how we got our good friend, the Shah of Iran. And didn’t that turn out so well for everybody? (And by everybody, I mean Halliburton and the rest of Dick Cheney’s secret energy task force.)

tbogg @ 50

Did Americans’ conviction that we can do no wrong come up when you were writing the book?

I know Bob will touch on this, but in a brief conversation I had with him, I was struck by how many proxy wars the United States has been behind, mostly because a foreign leader may have batted his eyes once in the Soviets direction…

Mmmm. Remarked to my better half the other day that I wondered if the U.S. had ever fought any war that its leader at the time did not actually *want* to fight. (That was after the links (which I do not have on hand right now) about plans to ‘justify’ an invasion of Cuba by, e.g., releasng a report that an American airliner with vacationing college students had been shot down by Cuba; there were other scenarios, too.) (And, yes, I include FDR in there.)

Bob, since it doesn’t seem that Americans hate other groups all that much as a rule, what are the steps that lead from ‘unjustified certainty’ to ‘war’? Any patterns that popped out to you?

tbogg @ 50

Did Americans’ conviction that we can do no wrong come up when you were writing the book?

I know Bob will touch on this, but in a brief conversation I had with him, I was struck by how many proxy wars the United States has been behind, mostly because a foreign leader may have batted his eyes once in the Soviets direction…

The list of despots backed by the US in the Cold War is positively mortal to one’s belief in the inherent nobility of our government. It’s literally too long to go into here, and I didn’t even come close to a full list even in the book (since it’s focused on modern wars). But for one example: Suharto in Indonesia rose to power atop the bodies of over half a million people, in what the CIA itself termed “one of the worst mass murders of the 20th century.” But he was anti-communist, and the US supported him unflinchingly.

Half a million people here and there, pretty soon it starts to add up.

btw, the proper response to realizing that the US is not uniformly exceptional as a positive force is not to start assuming that the US is exceptional as a negative force. Power is what it is. It does what it does. I’m pretty convinced that any superpower with so little check on its actions might have behaved similarly.

It’s your “Yousef Sixpack” and his family that resonate with me. Whenever I think of Iraq, I imagine all the people who are just trying to have a life of some sort, being attacked by all sides.

I wonder if there is just some portion of the human race that is willing to throw off the bonds of our common humanity. And I wonder how big a part testosterone poisoning plays in all this.

behindthefall @ 59

tbogg @ 50

Did Americans’ conviction that we can do no wrong come up when you were writing the book?

I know Bob will touch on this, but in a brief conversation I had with him, I was struck by how many proxy wars the United States has been behind, mostly because a foreign leader may have batted his eyes once in the Soviets direction…

Mmmm. Remarked to my better half the other day that I wondered if the U.S. had ever fought any war that it’s leader did not actually *want* to fight. (That was after the links (which I do not have on hand right now) about plans to ‘justify’ an invasion of Cuba by, e.g., releasng a report that an American airliner with vacationing college students had been shot down by Cuba; there were other scenarios, too.) (And, yes, I include FDR in there.)

Bob, since it doesn’t seem that Americans hate other groups all that much as a rule, what are the steps that lead from ‘unjustified certainty’ to ‘war’? Any patterns that popped out to you?

Actually, there’s a whole chapter in the book, referenced above, called “How to Start a War in Ten Easy Steps.” It’s too long to quote here, but it’s my precise answer.

Bob Harris @ 59

btw, the proper response to realizing that the US is not uniformely exceptional as a positive force is not to start assuming that the US is exceptional as a negative force. Power is what it is. It does what it does. I’m pretty convinced that any superpower with so little check on its actions might have behaved similarly.

Bob,

Hope you don’t mind my saying this — I’m surprised to find myself saying it to anyone these days — but I believe that you are an enlightened man.

Bob Harris @ 59

tbogg @ 50

Did Americans’ conviction that we can do no wrong come up when you were writing the book?

I know Bob will touch on this, but in a brief conversation I had with him, I was struck by how many proxy wars the United States has been behind, mostly because a foreign leader may have batted his eyes once in the Soviets direction…

The list of despots backed by the US in the Cold War is positively mortal to one’s belief in the inherent nobility of our government. It’s literally too long to go into here, and I didn’t even come close to a full list even in the book (since it’s focused on modern wars). But for one example: Suharto in Indonesia rose to power atop the bodies of over half a million people, in what the CIA itself termed “one of the worst mass murders of the 20th century.” But he was anti-communist, and the US supported him unflinchingly.

Half a million people here and there, pretty soon it starts to add up.

btw, the proper response to realizing that the US is not uniformely exceptional as a positive force is not to start assuming that the US is exceptional as a negative force. Power is what it is. It does what it does. I’m pretty convinced that any superpower with so little check on its actions might have behaved similarly.

On Nov 18th, Naomi Klein, author of “The Shock Doctrine,” will no doubt have much, much more to say on this one in her FDL Book Salon visit.

“Fascists embraced nationalism and mysticism, advancing ideals of strength and power as means of legitimacy. These ideas are in direct “opposition” to the liberal ideals of humanism and rationalism characteristic of the Age of Enlightenment.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism .

“It behooves every man who values liberty of conscience for himself, to resist invasions of it in the case of others: or their case may, by change of circumstances, become his own.”
Thomas Jefferson

America’s Constitution set up a “Liberal Representative Democracy,” born out of the “Period of Enlightenment” Fascism thrives, when people take for granted their circumstances. Inaction is the general rule, until “people” are adversely effected, then it is to late. This is a constant warning from America’s founders. Fascism is a social cancer our Constitution was designed to flush out and isolate like a anti-virus program. Unfortunately the only thing flushed of late by our leaders is “Reason,” and the anti-virus program needs to be re-booted!!!

behindthefall @ 62

Bob Harris @ 59

btw, the proper response to realizing that the US is not uniformely exceptional as a positive force is not to start assuming that the US is exceptional as a negative force. Power is what it is. It does what it does. I’m pretty convinced that any superpower with so little check on its actions might have behaved similarly.

Bob,

Hope you don’t mind my saying this — I’m surprised to find myself saying it to anyone these days — but I believe that you are an enlightened man.

That’s very kind, but I think sanity is fragile enough that believing this about oneself for even a moment would be dangerous.

Next thing, I’d probably have a cult and an armed compound and a headquarters on a boat that operates outside territorial limits with semi-hypnotized disciples of questionable age wearing little butt tattoos and go-go boots tending to my every whim. And really, who wants that?

Great to have you here at The Lake Bob!

Do you have an opinion or two on how much (if at all) our genes drive us to pick sides/enemies/ideas that in the final analysis defy logic and reasoning?

Bob Harris @ 65

behindthefall @ 62

Bob,

Hope you don’t mind my saying this — I’m surprised to find myself saying it to anyone these days — but I believe that you are an enlightened man.

That’s very kind, but I think sanity is fragile enough that believing this about oneself for even a moment would be dangerous.

Next thing, I’d probably have a cult and an armed compound and a headquarters on a boat that operates outside territorial limits with semi-hypnotized disciples of questionable age wearing little butt tattoos and go-go boots tending to my every whim. And really, who wants that?

Sex-crazed vegetarian pacifists?

Speaking of people with different views on the exercise of American military power, is anyone else here going to the McGovern Conference in a couple of weeks?

Bob Harris @ 65

behindthefall @ 62

Bob,

Hope you don’t mind my saying this — I’m surprised to find myself saying it to anyone these days — but I believe that you are an enlightened man.

That’s very kind, but I think sanity is fragile enough that believing this about oneself for even a moment would be dangerous.

Next thing, I’d probably have a cult and an armed compound and a headquarters on a boat that operates outside territorial limits with semi-hypnotized disciples of questionable age wearing little butt tattoos and go-go boots tending to my every whim. And really, who wants that?

See? You can’t dodge it. It’s always there.

Bob,

Given your answer @ 59, and considering you a sage observer of the human scene (noting also, your endorsement of ‘idealistic’ earlier and convinced, myself, that the ‘idealistic’ is not ‘pie in the sky,’ but vital to our collective survival), do you think we humans shall find the wisdom to ‘wage unrelenting peace’ in an effort to save our collective ‘tale’?

Next thing, I’d probably have a cult and an armed compound and a headquarters on a boat that operates outside territorial limits with semi-hypnotized disciples of questionable age wearing little butt tattoos and go-go boots tending to my every whim.

I did that for awhile. It got boring so I took up paintball.

Mad Dogs @ 66

Great to have you here at The Lake Bob!

Do you have an opinion or two on how much (if at all) our genes drive us to pick sides/enemies/ideas that in the final analysis defy logic and reasoning?

I’m not qualified in any of the relevant fields, obviously, so take this as the mutterings of some drunk if you like. But I think we’re far, far less removed from other primates than we flatter ourselves to think. It wasn’t long ago that humans were said to be different because no other species used tools. Then scientists found lots of species that use tools. Then we were different because no other species has speech. Now they’re figuring out that extemely complex communication systems are more common than we ever realized. More and more, it seems the trend says that thinking we’re all that different is simply a measure of our own ignorance about the rest of the animal kingdom.

So, yes, oversimplifying beyond description: defend the herd, take more soil, justify with primitive god totem. Repeat.

Put another way: our closest relative on this planet is the Bonobo Chimpanzee of Equatorial Africa. Bonobos, unfortunately, are becoming extinct.

Why are Bonobos becoming extinct, you ask?

Because we humans are eating them.

We have a lot of work to do.

Sorry about the multiple posting, that was weird.

Bob Harris @ 72

Why are Bonobos becoming extinct, you ask?

Because we humans are eating them.

We have a lot of work to do.

Let them eat Bonobos bonbons…

Bob, it’s a pleasure having you with us today.

Just a heads up to all that a couple comments got tripped up by the filters and folks may want to refresh their browsers, not just refresh comments.

Thanks.

As always, I am probably so far left behind (yeah, I certainly would be!) that the conversation has long since mutated. But what the hey.
I have several interlocking ideas about the burgeoning lunacy of human societies, and they all arise from our evolutionary primate roots. With the exception of orangutans (and that is certainly open to question), primates exist in fairly tight social units. (So do other distant relatives, but that’s another issue.)Anthropologists call similar human aggregations “tribes.”
My hero, Edward O. Wilson, names tribalism as the root of much of the woe we wreak upon others of our species, and by extension, the planet. I subscribe to that, especially given the intense pressure of population growth we cannot avoid. We know in our DNA that more of us is more competition for resources. So, weighing the options, we side with tribes just like us against tribes less like us. I think the combination of rampant growth in numbers and increasing communication capacity around the globe, which makes us all too aware of all the others of us everywhere, drives much of the intra-specific nastiness we see.
I am not filled with hope that significant numbers of us will have a peace and environmental sanity epiphany. Could happen, tho.
And Kirk, I’d be happy to start a Florida West Coast chapter of SCVPs. But that wouldn’t do you much good. Pity.

Bob Harris @ 59

btw, the proper response to realizing that the US is not uniformly exceptional as a positive force is not to start assuming that the US is exceptional as a negative force. Power is what it is. It does what it does. I’m pretty convinced that any superpower with so little check on its actions might have behaved similarly.

That said, we cannot ignore the fact that every time the U.S. has deployed troops or supported dictators, it came down to the decisions of individuals. No matter how many different ways can weigh the influence of, say, neoconservatism and postmodernism and authoritarianism on President Bush’s foreign policy, it is ultimately secondary to the fact that he gave the order to invade Iraq – a conscious choice.

I acknowledge that many of the people in the inner circles of our government have been raised and educated under certain paradigms that make any alternative impossible for them to seriously consider. I also think there’s some truth to the theory that anyone who sincerely believed in those alternatives couldn’t have won an election against a candidate who followed the conventional wisdom – which might explain the predictable fates of Adlai Stevenson, Dennis Kucinich, et al.

But it is also our experience that when a regime follows its own dogma with sufficient dedication and blind faith, it doesn’t take much internal dissent to stick a wrench between the gears.

I know I’m not really saying anything substantive here, but when any discussion enters the realm of macroscopic patterns, I think it’s genuinely critical keep the influence of the individual in the back of our minds.

As a young person, how can I/we (my generation) allieviate some of the suffering in the world?

Bob,
Sitting back and enjoying the conversation.
Welcome to the Lake.

With all your travel, research, writing, etc., were you ever approached by any “government” to present their view exclusively?

Love the maps and art work.

Bob, welcome.

Want to talk a bit about trends and fashions (and copycat-ism) in armed rebellion? Who are the big models of emulation around the world, aside from the obvious one currently at large somewhere on the Afghan-Pakistan border?

Fly-by visit by one-eyed zennurse, but looking forward to your book , Bob, and thanks for your visit here at FDL.

“Next thing, I’d probably have a cult and an armed compound and a headquarters on a boat that operates outside territorial limits with semi-hypnotized disciples of questionable age wearing little butt tattoos and go-go boots tending to my every whim. And really, who wants that?”

Obviously, you fit right in.

Bob Harris @ 72

…More and more, it seems the trend says that thinking we’re all that different is simply a measure of our own ignorance about the rest of the animal kingdom.

So, yes, oversimplifying beyond description: defend the herd, take more soil, justify with primitive god totem. Repeat…

My life experience seems to drive me to the conclusion that much of the activity of people’s daily lives consists of a smattering of sentience every now and then, but that most human activity is driven by more primal impulses and stimulus/responses.

Sort of like a very thin layer of exquisite frosting on cake made from a boggy swamp.

David W. Bartoo @ 70

Bob,

Given your answer @ 59, and considering you a sage observer of the human scene (noting also, your endorsement of ‘idealistic’ earlier and convinced, myself, that the ‘idealistic’ is not ‘pie in the sky,’ but vital to our collective survival), do you think we humans shall find the wisdom to ‘wage unrelenting peace’ in an effort to save our collective ‘tale’?

I think it’s possible. The conclusion of Who Hates Whom includes something I realized last year in talking with my nephew, who is 17.

It seems obvious that as soon as humans start communicating, it gets harder and harder to see the world as Us and Them. For peace to happen, we all have to start seeing the world as merely different varieties of Us. And for all our (justified) complaints and fears about corporate media and spin control and the like, this is still actually happening at lightning speed right this minute. And it’s probably only going to continue to snowball.

When I was my nephew’s age (I just turned 44 this week), it was impossible — utterly and completely — to know with any detail even the most basic events in distant parts of the world without extensive time investment — libraries, newspaper archives, etc. And it was also impossible to imagine in any detail a world in which this would be possible.

Now, for my nephew — and for people his age, all over the entire world — it’s impossible not to imagine.

And one thing I also noticed in writing the book: change seems to take about a generation. Societies don’t change individually nearly as much as they do from generation to generation. The world changes, a generation passes on, and the next one lives and functions in the new one.

I’m not sure I can even imagine how my nephew’s generation — the beginning of the first truly globalized generation in human history — will see the world.

But I like to try. That’s where I see hope.

Hypatia @ 76

As always, I am probably so far left behind (yeah, I certainly would be!) that the conversation has long since mutated. But what the hey.
I have several interlocking ideas about the burgeoning lunacy of human societies, and they all arise from our evolutionary primate roots. With the exception of orangutans (and that is certainly open to question), primates exist in fairly tight social units. (So do other distant relatives, but that’s another issue.)Anthropologists call similar human aggregations “tribes.”
My hero, Edward O. Wilson, names tribalism as the root of much of the woe we wreak upon others of our species, and by extension, the planet. I subscribe to that, especially given the intense pressure of population growth we cannot avoid. We know in our DNA that more of us is more competition for resources. So, weighing the options, we side with tribes just like us against tribes less like us. I think the combination of rampant growth in numbers and increasing communication capacity around the globe, which makes us all too aware of all the others of us everywhere, drives much of the intra-specific nastiness we see.
I am not filled with hope that significant numbers of us will have a peace and environmental sanity epiphany. Could happen, tho.
And Kirk, I’d be happy to start a Florida West Coast chapter of SCVPs. But that wouldn’t do you much good. Pity.

Fwiw, I think E. O. Wilson’s books are extremely valuable. Highly recommended.

I love the way the Lake has already transmogrified and adopted my tossed off “sex-crazed vegetarian pacificists” into SCVPs, with imagined regional chapters ready to roll! I love this.

Bob Harris @ 85

Hypatia @ 76

And Kirk, I’d be happy to start a Florida West Coast chapter of SCVPs. But that wouldn’t do you much good. Pity.

Fwiw, I think E. O. Wilson’s books are extremely valuable. Highly recommended.

I love the way the Lake has already transmogrified and adopted my tossed off “sex-crazed vegetarian pacificists” into SCVPs, with imagined regional chapters ready to roll! I love this.

The Lake is also fairly diversified, and I’m sure will adopt Sex Crazed Vegetarian Pacifists, even if they aren’t quite TOTALLY vegetarian. I’ll start the Columbus, OH chapter.

;)

Bev Wright @ 79

Bob,
Sitting back and enjoying the conversation.
Welcome to the Lake.

With all your travel, research, writing, etc., were you ever approached by any “government” to present their view exclusively?

Love the maps and art work.

Thanks!

Nope, I’ve never been asked to do any such thing. I should clarify, however, in case the NSA is secretly reading this: I can be bought, but I’m really, really expensive.

Plus, you’ll have to come up with better bullshit for me to repeat, because almost nobody is buying what you’re coming up with these days. I mean, please.

And I would prefer to be paid in a mixture of pounds, euro, and Canadian dollars, thank you. No currency you still have to power to screw up much further.

Bob Harris @ 83

Hypatia @ 76

As always, I am probably so far left behind (yeah, I certainly would be!) that the conversation has long since mutated. But what the hey.
I have several interlocking ideas about the burgeoning lunacy of human societies, and they all arise from our evolutionary primate roots. With the exception of orangutans (and that is certainly open to question), primates exist in fairly tight social units. (So do other distant relatives, but that’s another issue.)Anthropologists call similar human aggregations “tribes.”
My hero, Edward O. Wilson, names tribalism as the root of much of the woe we wreak upon others of our species, and by extension, the planet. I subscribe to that, especially given the intense pressure of population growth we cannot avoid. We know in our DNA that more of us is more competition for resources. So, weighing the options, we side with tribes just like us against tribes less like us. I think the combination of rampant growth in numbers and increasing communication capacity around the globe, which makes us all too aware of all the others of us everywhere, drives much of the intra-specific nastiness we see.
I am not filled with hope that significant numbers of us will have a peace and environmental sanity epiphany. Could happen, tho.
And Kirk, I’d be happy to start a Florida West Coast chapter of SCVPs. But that wouldn’t do you much good. Pity.

Fwiw, I think E. O. Wilson’s books are extremely valuable. Highly recommended.

I love the way the Lake has already transmogrified and adopted my tossed off “sex-crazed vegetarian pacificists” into SCVPs, with imagined regional chapters ready to roll! I love this.

excerpts from David Orr:

(on biophilia):
“E O Wilson suggests a deeper sort of attachment that goes beyond the particularities of habitat. We are, he argues, a biological species who will find little ultimate meaning apart from the remainder of life. We are bound to living things by what Wilson describes as an innate urge to affiliate which begins in early childhood and cascades into cultural and social patterns.

“If natural diversity is the wellspring of human intelligence, then the systematic destruction inherent in contemporary technology and economics is a war against the very sources of mind . . . It is impossible to unravel natural diversity without undermining human intelligence as well.”

One has to fight to be an optimist nowadays…

What does it mean — the difference between an optimist and a pessimist? It is just a very clever way of putting things — that an optimist does not give up and he still, somehow, has faith that he can maintain his own way of life and his own way of thinking.

Yeah but does Krugman know what a SCVP is. Now that separates the day traders from the dilettantes.

Getting here late, but hey, Tom, and hey Bob. Great book, loved it!

Bob @ 82

The best possible answer! A true pleasure ‘meeting’ you. Thank you, for speaking with us, sharing with us and for not being overly impressed with yourself. May I say, however, that I find you most impressive indeed. It is our ‘humanity’ expressed in the being of people like yourself which will allow us the chance to pass the world along to those who come after us. Our role is simply to see that there is a world to pass along. That will, no doubt, keep us busy for the rest of our lives.

…in case the NSA is secretly reading this…

Secretly? Bob, you’ve been under the writing hood for too long…

sex-crazed vegetarian pacificists, hu?, where!?!?!

Hey, Bob, Bob Harris, SAfrica won the Rugby World Cup !!! Nyah, nyah, nyah !!!! (Gloat)

Met any good pudu lately?

Regards
Suez in SA

tw3k @ 93

sex-crazed vegetarian pacificists, hu?, where!?!?!

A carrot for the answer.

sex-crazed vegetarian pacificists, hu?, where!?!?!

Too late… the abstinent cannibalistic warbloggers beat you here.

You snooze…. etc etc

pseudonymous in nc @ 80

Bob, welcome.

Want to talk a bit about trends and fashions (and copycat-ism) in armed rebellion? Who are the big models of emulation around the world, aside from the obvious one currently at large somewhere on the Afghan-Pakistan border?

This is a bit afield of Who Hates Whom, but I’m struck by the reflexive adoption of Che Guevara as some sort of symbol of freedom. You see his face everywhere these days — he’s an international brand as much as Coca-Cola.

And that’s just bizarre to my eye. I mean, I liked The Motorcycle Diaries, too, and Batista sucked, but our noble doctor also had a hand in hundreds of extrajudicial killings.

Sorry, not wearing his face on a T-shirt, no thanks.

When I despair, I listen to late Beethoven or Shostakovich, or think about Jane Goodall and Nelson Mandela and Vaclav Havel, and yes, Al Gore. Then I think, we are not hopeless.

Mad Dogs @ 95

tw3k @ 93

sex-crazed vegetarian pacificists, hu?, where!?!?!

A carrot for the answer.

A carrot! Why, I outta, give’ya the stick! *g

Hypatia @ 97

When I despair, I listen to late Beethoven or Shostakovich, or think about Jane Goodall and Nelson Mandela and Vaclav Havel, and yes, Al Gore. Then I think, we are not hopeless.

:)

Interview: The Two Apes within Us

So if humans evolved from apes, which ones are our closest relatives?
Dutch primate researcher Frans de Waal spoke with SPIEGEL about
bloodthirsty chimpanzees, sex-crazed bonobos, the origin of the family
and the nature of human beings.

Bonobos in go-go boots? SCVP’s indeed!

Off topic, and I missed the conversation, but got home in time to hear more threats going from our Chiefs getting more angry and threatening about Iran…now what are the steps to interruptus this plan? What is that phrase about insanity doing the same thing over & over. I think we are there.

Suezboo @ 94

Hey, Bob, Bob Harris, SAfrica won the Rugby World Cup !!! Nyah, nyah, nyah !!!! (Gloat)

Met any good pudu lately?

Regards
Suez in SA

AAAAAAAGGGGGHH! They haven’t shown the game here and I was taping it right this very minute! I’ve got the semis backed up, too. I’ve been carefully avoiding rugby headlines for days, and just hoping nobody would tell me…

AAAAAAAAAGGGGGHHH!

I know you didn’t mean to spoil it for me. Thanks for knowing how much I like rugby. You must be a frequent reader, and I’m glad for it. And congrats to the Boks! Not sure why the “nyah” — I thought SA and NZ were the class sides, and wrote so on my blog.

Just glad the poms can’t gloat about two in a row. They’d make Wilkinson PM if he’d won with another dropkick.

Please don’t tell me the score, OK? At least I’ll have that suspense.

Thanks!

tbogg @ 96

sex-crazed vegetarian pacificists, hu?, where!?!?!

Too late… the abstinent cannibalistic warbloggers beat you here.

You snooze…. etc etc

I was in absentia .

You see his face everywhere these days

Well, you know the international Che-industrial complex did get cranked up to commemorate the 40th anniversary of his death this year. It’s a heck of a public relations campaign.

“Hundreds of extrajudicial killings”. It almost seems as quaint as the Geneva Conventions to even mention anything in only three figures.

Oh, I’m really sorry, Bob. I thought you would have been watching live like all good fans.My bad and I apologise.No more spoilers.

I seemed to remember that you were a big Aussie supporter, hence the gloating.

OK, now I feel like a right twit.Sigh.

Suezboo @ 94

Hey, Bob, Bob Harris, SAfrica won the Rugby World Cup !!! Nyah, nyah, nyah !!!! (Gloat)

Met any good pudu lately?

Regards
Suez in SA

And a ps on this to non-rugby fans: South Africa’s victory in the 1995 Rugby World Cup was a beautiful, beautiful thing. Rugby was more of a ruling-class game, but South Africa hosted — its first major international event post-apartheid, and Mandela, bless his soul, wore the team’s jersey as a symbol of national unity. Gorgeous thing. So is the anthem SA sings before each game — combining three distinct melodies and languages into one beautiful song.

South African rugby rocks. I’m an Australia fan generally, but I give it up here.

Firedoglake thanks you for being here and sharing your humor and new book with all of us at the Lake.

If you haven’t had the opportunity to enjoy Bob’s book yet, click on the link above.

Bob, thank you again for being here.

SCVP’s R-us…

De Waal: Exactly. And because of such traits, we cannot use the
chimpanzee alone to explain why we are the way we are. For example, we
can learn nothing from chimpanzees about our ability to make peace
with other groups or nations. For that it’s worth taking a closer look
at the bonobo…

SPIEGEL: …which is just as closely related to us as the chimpanzee.

De Waal: Yes. In fact, with its relatively small head and its
frequently upright way of walking, it even bears a closer resemblance
to us. Most importantly, however, the bonobos are remarkably peaceful
in their interactions with one another.

SPIEGEL: What makes them such pacifists?

De Waal: Wild bonobos live in a habitat that is more bountiful. Unlike
chimpanzees, they have more than enough to eat, so that female bonobos
can travel in groups. They form coalitions, help each other and defend
themselves to avoid being dominated by the males.

SPIEGEL: A matriarchy?

De Waal: Yes, but not one in which individual females are dominant.
Instead, the entire group is dominant, with the older female bonobos
generally in charge within that group.

Suezboo @ 106

Oh, I’m really sorry, Bob. I thought you would have been watching live like all good fans.My bad and I apologise.No more spoilers.

I seemed to remember that you were a big Aussie supporter, hence the gloating.

OK, now I feel like a right twit.Sigh.

No worries! Seriously. Congrats, and I’m flattered you knew I was interested. The US just doesn’t get rugby on TV, period, except for long-delayed telecasts on the Irish Setanta channel via satellite. You couldn’t have known. I’ll still enjoy see how it all worked out! We’re cool.

And Bryan Habana is god. :)

Two hours already! Wow.

That was wonderful good fun. My thanks to Bev, Jane, Tom, Pachacutec, and everyone at the Lake for making this happen! My real pleasure.

If you enjoyed this, I hope you’ll pop in at my own blog now and again and say hey.

Thanks!

Bob Harris @ 111

Two hours already! Wow.

That was wonderful good fun. My thanks to Bev, Jane, Tom, Pachacutec, and everyone at the Lake for making this happen! My real pleasure.

If you enjoyed this, I hope you’ll pop in at my own blog now and again and say hey.

Thanks!

Thank you, and I’ll stop by.

Yes, thanks Bob. And thank you to everyone else who stopped in today.

And just to plug another book chat coming up (11/4), make sure you pick up a copy of Susan Faludi’s The Terror Dream. I’m about halfway through it and it’s one of the most fascinating books I’ve read this year.

So now I’m out of here. If I can only find my pants…

Thank you for this, Bob. I’m sincerely delighted to have had a bit of a dialogue with you.

May the Nuzzling be with you always.

Bob Harris @ 111

Two hours already! Wow.

That was wonderful good fun. My thanks to Bev, Jane, Tom, Pachacutec, and everyone at the Lake for making this happen! My real pleasure.

If you enjoyed this, I hope you’ll pop in at my own blog now and again and say hey.

Thanks!

Thanks Bob, we really enjoyed having you here. Congratulations on the book. It’s great and I highly recommend it.

tw3k @ 93

sex-crazed vegetarian pacificists, hu?, where!?!?!

late to the thread, i think we’re in the organizing local chapters stage. (waves hand wildly) Upper Midwest over here!

Bob, i’m going to have to buy your book. I liked your comments about your nephew. I see this with my youngest daughter (20 yr old college student). When i was in high school, i was passionately for civil rights and integration altho it seemed like such an idealist vision. Now my youngest, the Pop Princess, moves in the midst of a mob of friends, African-American, Hmong, Cambodian, WASP, a regular little United Nations. And they see nothing unusual about this. I love ‘em all, miss the days when my house was filled with idealistic teens.

Thanks very much to all involved!~

tbogg @ 113

Yes, thanks Bob. And thank you to everyone else who stopped in today.

And just to plug another book chat coming up (11/4), make sure you pick up a copy of Susan Faludi’s The Terror Dream. I’m about halfway through it and it’s one of the most fascinating books I’ve read this year.

So now I’m out of here. If I can only find my pants…

Check on the patio next to the hot tup. They’re under the shrubbery.

Jane has an AGAGAG thread upstairs.

Abu fought the law, let’s hope the law wins.

Kaelri @ 77

Bob Harris @ 59

btw, the proper response to realizing that the US is not uniformly exceptional as a positive force is not to start assuming that the US is exceptional as a negative force. Power is what it is. It does what it does. I’m pretty convinced that any superpower with so little check on its actions might have behaved similarly.

That said, we cannot ignore the fact that every time the U.S. has deployed troops or supported dictators, it came down to the decisions of individuals. No matter how many different ways can weigh the influence of, say, neoconservatism and postmodernism and authoritarianism on President Bush’s foreign policy, it is ultimately secondary to the fact that he gave the order to invade Iraq – a conscious choice.

I acknowledge that many of the people in the inner circles of our government have been raised and educated under certain paradigms that make any alternative impossible for them to seriously consider. I also think there’s some truth to the theory that anyone who sincerely believed in those alternatives couldn’t have won an election against a candidate who followed the conventional wisdom – which might explain the predictable fates of Adlai Stevenson, Dennis Kucinich, et al.

But it is also our experience that when a regime follows its own dogma with sufficient dedication and blind faith, it doesn’t take much internal dissent to stick a wrench between the gears.

I know I’m not really saying anything substantive here, but when any discussion enters the realm of macroscopic patterns, I think it’s genuinely critical keep the influence of the individual in the back of our minds.

The influence of the individual—makes me think of John Dean, testifying to the truth during Watergate, despite his certain view that no one would believe him, and that as a consequence he was facing prison for sure, because he felt that the truth was important. Dear God I pray there will be people who feel this way now.

Truth is beautiful

Bob Harris @ 97

pseudonymous in nc @ 80

Bob, welcome.

Want to talk a bit about trends and fashions (and copycat-ism) in armed rebellion? Who are the big models of emulation around the world, aside from the obvious one currently at large somewhere on the Afghan-Pakistan border?

This is a bit afield of Who Hates Whom, but I’m struck by the reflexive adoption of Che Guevara as some sort of symbol of freedom. You see his face everywhere these days — he’s an international brand as much as Coca-Cola.

And that’s just bizarre to my eye. I mean, I liked The Motorcycle Diaries, too, and Batista sucked, but our noble doctor also had a hand in hundreds of extrajudicial killings.

Sorry, not wearing his face on a T-shirt, no thanks.

Always disturbed me that the essence of manhood was how many people one can kill. As a woman I implore you, can we not improve on this model? Guys?

SPIEGEL: Make love, not war. Bonobos are famous for their uninhibited
sex. How important is it for their social order?

De Waal: Very important. Bonobos have sex about seven times more
frequently than chimpanzees. But their encounters are also shorter,
lasting 14 seconds on average. For them, sex is like shaking hands,
and they do in all kinds of positions. These Kama Sutra primates
stimulate each other orally and with their hands, and they even have
sex hanging upside down. Most importantly, however, they engage in all
kinds of combinations, homosexual or heterosexual. They do avoid sex
between mothers and sons, however. Unlike chimpanzees, they also have
sex when bonobo females aren’t even in heat. I would say that
three-quarters of their sexual activity isn’t for reproductive
purposes.

SPIEGEL: For what, then?

De Waal: For pleasure and relaxation. And for repairing damaged
relationships. When bonobos climb a fruit tree, the first thing that
happens is that the females have plenty of sex. Their so-called GG
rubbing, or rubbing their genitalia together, is the cement holding
together their social order. Finally, the males use sex to try to get
food from the females.

That’s my kinda social order!

The SCVP is nothing but a bunch of rank hypocrites! Ever since Charles Whaley and his fucking leather shoes muscled their way into the Central Planning Committee, it’s been one spineless compromise after another with the corporate whores we were formed to oppose.

Un-fucking-believably, Whaley’s SCVP has been playing footsie with the National Dairy Council, the Incredible Edible Egg, and their anti-transgendered minions in the traitorous SLGB (no T) so-called “community.” This is not the SCVP I knew and loved. Accordingly, several of the ousted SCVP-CPC members and myself have formed the VPCS specifically to counter the crass MSM-approved SCVP.

Please consider signing up for our mailing list at home.rr.com/~roudebush/vpcs/index.html, or go to Yahoo Groups and search for VPSC to join our forum.

FUCK those SCVP bastards! It makes me soooooo mad. I hate them.

Vegan Pacifists for Crazy Sex @ 123

The SCVP is nothing but a bunch of rank hypocrites! Ever since Charles Whaley and his fucking leather shoes muscled their way into the Central Planning Committee, it’s been one spineless compromise after another with the corporate whores we were formed to oppose.

Un-fucking-believably, Whaley’s SCVP has been playing footsie with the National Dairy Council, the Incredible Edible Egg, and their anti-transgendered minions in the traitorous SLGB (no T) so-called “community.” This is not the SCVP I knew and loved. Accordingly, several of the ousted SCVP-CPC members and myself have formed the VPCS specifically to counter the crass MSM-approved SCVP.

Please consider signing up for our mailing list at home.rr.com/~roudebush/vpcs/index.html, or go to Yahoo Groups and search for VPSC to join our forum.

FUCK those SCVP bastards! It makes me soooooo mad. I hate them.

707!!1

neokneme @ 74

Bob Harris @ 72

Why are Bonobos becoming extinct, you ask?

Because we humans are eating them.

We have a lot of work to do.

Let them eat Bonobos bonbons…

What will Bono say?

MarkH @ 125

neokneme @ 74

Let them eat Bonobos bonbons…

What will Bono say?

I actually wondered that myself! “~}

Bob Harris @ 72

Mad Dogs @ 66

Great to have you here at The Lake Bob!

Do you have an opinion or two on how much (if at all) our genes drive us to pick sides/enemies/ideas that in the final analysis defy logic and reasoning?

I’m not qualified in any of the relevant fields, obviously, so take this as the mutterings of some drunk if you like. But I think we’re far, far less removed from other primates than we flatter ourselves to think. It wasn’t long ago that humans were said to be different because no other species used tools. Then scientists found lots of species that use tools. Then we were different because no other species has speech. Now they’re figuring out that extemely complex communication systems are more common than we ever realized. More and more, it seems the trend says that thinking we’re all that different is simply a measure of our own ignorance about the rest of the animal kingdom.

So, yes, oversimplifying beyond description: defend the herd, take more soil, justify with primitive god totem. Repeat.

Put another way: our closest relative on this planet is the Bonobo Chimpanzee of Equatorial Africa. Bonobos, unfortunately, are becoming extinct.

Why are Bonobos becoming extinct, you ask?

Because we humans are eating them.

We have a lot of work to do.

But we are equally related to the Common Chimp (Pan troglodytes), whose males are notorious for forming paramilitary bands and fighting protracted border wars with rival male groups.

These aren’t really distant relatives, BTW. The groups fighting are the equivalent of second cousins and usually were once in the other group, fissioning off to establish their own territory.

Likewise some of the most vicious wars are committed between groups that are actually “genetic siblings”. The Tutsi and Hutu were ethnicities largely fabricated by the Belgians splitting up the population into “those that have 2 cows (Tutsi)” and “those that have one or no cows (Hutu)”. The Bosnians were simply Serbs that were converted to Islam. And then there are the Palesinians and Jews…both of whom share something called the Cohen Modal Haplotype on their Y-Chromosomes. This genetic marker is rare in other Middle Eastern groups (unless they have some evidence of being Jews converted to Islam or Christianity).

We frequently kill those that are genetically most like us…when those groups diverge from whatever we cose to label as “ourselves”. It seems that these folks are sometimes viewed as even greater threats than those that are distinctive physically. Nothing makes people so insecure as the loss of their identity, and when others within the group “convert” it portends internal cultural extinction.