Sam the American Eagle, Rowlf, and a Muppet Show moment…sometimes you need a little giggle.
And now for an update on some legal bits and pieces:
– As Marcy points out at Next Hurrah, the Stanford Lawyer has an intriguing interview with Carol Lam that includes this telling, yet wholly incomplete and un-followed-up bit that begs for more discussion:
What these events did show me is that you can’t have a Department of Justice that’s a straight shot to the White House, and that was really the problem here.
The Math rears its ugly, fetid turdblossom again.
– Glenn has a fantastic look back at some history on retroactive immunity — and why it is a bad idea.
Just as now, the lawbreaking banks insisted that they must be protected from the devastating consequences of their lawbreaking — claims that Kennedy and Katzenbach easily destroyed. After all, the banks — like the telecoms now — were the ones who chose to break the law, knowing that it was illegal, because they perceived there to be great economic benefit in doing so. To then grant them amnesty would be to reward lawbreaking. Those arguments prevailed and the amnesty deal was derailed.
Common sense and commitment to rule of law. More of this, please.
– Fascinating article in today’s NYTimes Magazine on an officer and lawyer at Guantanamo who was disgusted with the Bush Administration’s disrespect for legal principles and refusal to fully provide discovery to defense counsel. And the repercussions involved in breaking the law, not just for those being held at Guantanamo, but for this officer who took it upon himself to act outside his orders. Lots of difficult questions on both sides of this are raised — questions we ought to have been asking a long time ago.
– Marty and company at Balkinization takes on “waterboarding as an ambiguous question…or not so much.” See here, here, here and here.
– Finally, the WaPo has a bit of exposure on political considerations being brought to bear on prosecutions at Guantanamo. You tell me, are officers at the Pentagon being politicized, too?
Politically motivated officials at the Pentagon have pushed for convictions of high-profile detainees ahead of the 2008 elections, the former lead prosecutor for terrorism trials at Guantanamo Bay said last night, adding that the pressure played a part in his decision to resign earlier this month.
Senior defense officials discussed in a September 2006 meeting the “strategic political value” of putting some prominent detainees on trial, said Air Force Col. Morris Davis. He said that he felt pressure to pursue cases that were deemed “sexy” over those that prosecutors believed were the most solid or were ready to go.
Davis said his resignation was also prompted by newly appointed senior officials seeking to use classified evidence in what would be closed sessions of court, and by almost all elements of the military commissions process being put under the Defense Department general counsel’s command, something he believes could present serious conflicts of interest.
“There was a big concern that the election of 2008 is coming up,” Davis said. “People wanted to get the cases going. There was a rush to get high-interest cases into court at the expense of openness.”…
Much more sunshine on this, please. Now. Mark Kleiman agrees.
UPDATE: Duncan finds an LATimes piece that I missed this morning. The stupid, it burns…quite literally.
Related posts:
- The Bazaar for Deals at Guantanamo
- Supreme Court Will Hear Uighur Case
- Innocence Ended: Uighurs Still Seek Fair Day in Court
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Max Blumenthal, Republican Gomorrah: Inside the Movement That Shattered the Party
- If You Believe Guantanamo Makes Us Safer, You Should Have Been Here Today





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Hello again. So soon something new!
Really soon! Christy you’re on fire this morning!
I am confused….. isn’t the book salon going to be in a few minutes?
ha…good morning, Christy.
katymine @ 3
looks like 5 pm ET, 2 pm PT, katymine. (Hope you’re feeling better today).
I’m sorry, this may be rude but I just have to bring this up from the last thread. Now I can read this thread.
Smgumby @ 68
link
From his lips to the ears of the gods.
“Politically motivated officials at the Pentagon have pushed for convictions of high-profile detainees ahead of the 2008 elections, the former lead prosecutor for terrorism trials at Guantanamo Bay said last night”
I saw this come up during the night. It scares the **** out of me because I am afraid it is going to be terribly effective.
GOP TALKING POINTS – 2008 Election Version
1) But there were no attacks since 9/11 so the oh-so successful “War on Terror” is working!
2) Terrorist are getting put away left and right and the libtards want to end it all. Stupid libs will probably want us to release them all into the USA!
OT..The Iraq tragedy only gets worse:
NYT
Steve-AR @ 7
Did you know the GOP talking points here at home are that Gregoire stole this election from Rossi. I still see “She Ain’t MY Governer” bumbper stickers once in a while.
COLBERT
MEET THE PRESS
NOW
As badly as I want to continue the discussion, my eyes are gravelly and I need to shut down for awhile. Thank you all for an informative and stimulating morning. Have a wonderful day.
Thanks specially to you Christy, and will be thinking about your query “How do we reach beyond the ‘net and the choir?”
xo
zen
Have a good nap, zen. So good to see you!
Steve-AR @ 9
For those who can, this is a link to the Red Cross, Red Crescent. They are one of the few organizations helping the displaced of Iraq. You can specify that your donation go to help Iraqis.
Christy,
Welcome back from your B-day! And, as usual, you’re right on!
Aloha,
Bob in HI
Hi Bob — good to be back, thanks. :)
Christy,
Where are my manners? I forgot to welcome you back to the lake and to wish you a Happy Birthday. You were missed.
Just popping in-dont know if this was posted already but it appears that Huckabee kicked Romneys butt in person but club for growth is calling the spin
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/….._vote.html
off topic/ heads up
it appears that stephen colbert was on Meet The Press this morning.
it now appears that the re-play of MTP will be shown on MSNBC at 5:00 PM Central Daylight Time.
(your time warp may vary)(will vary)
set your recording devices and or alarm clocks.
whatever.
titwillow
Welcome back, Christy!
welcome back to the Lake, Ms Christy.
happy birthday!
you were missed.
your great team help up great.
thanks as always.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 57
hackworth at 51 — A lot more Americans know than would have otherwise. Which was one of the big reasons that Jane and I tried to shine as much light as we could on all of this. Jane feels, and I wholeheartedly agree with her on this, that the asshats who manipulated things behind the scenes with Iran-Contra should have had the same sort of exposure. Because without it, they just keep popping up over and over in some sort of odious parade of perfidy. And without public exposure of this rot, the same would be true of the participants in Traitorgate.
But with public exposure comes the consistent tag of “involved in the outing of a CIA NOC” that gets to follow them through their public life from now on. It’s not full justice, but it’s definitely better than nothing.
? for you christy. why do you think bill clinton did not expose iran contra?
coyne at 22 — Absolutely no idea, other than a lot of the information may have been held close to pretect the asses of the people holding it. Poppy did, after all, used to be the head of the CIA…
Steve-AR @ 7
I so hope Abu gets indicted, convicted and jailed. Along with anyone and everyone who tried to steal elections, committed war crimes, performed torture, ordered torture, raided the US Treasury, betrayed our spies, illegally profited from war, stole part of that missing 8 billion dollars, was the beneficary of corrupt contracts, practiced rendition, ordered rendition, denied help to NOLA, orchestrated subverting the US Constitution, tapped our phones, profited from tapping our phones, prosecuted for political reasons……………
We’re going to need those detention centers after all.
Just a drive-by post to welcome back Christy (and a happy birthday). Does anyone else notice some nascent power with the progressive caucus lately? The activity around Dodd’s hold, such as Feingold and Biden backing him up and the House version of FISA being rewritten is a helpful sign, no?
Updated above with this, but Duncan spotted an LATimes piece that I missed that is well worth the read. Warning: utterly infuriating. The stupid, it burns…quite literally.
Laura Doty @ 5
I thought it was tomorrow?
solai @ 24
A significant problem is the DoJ IG has to refer the recommendation for indictment; good luck with that going anywhere.
We have a book salon today at 5 pm ET/2 pm PT and one tomorrow as well at a special time at 1:30 pm ET/10:30 am PT. All of the book salon listings are in the right-hand column immediately adjacent to the comments. And each one contains a date and time listing for everyone’s convenience.
Off to do lawn work. Hubby insists I help. Hrmph.
Smgumby @ 6
Then they better think again! I found the link I was looking for. It’s a very short but very interesting video called “Did you know?” I pretty much guarantee it’s chock full of some facts that you did not know, but really should be aware of. I think you all, especially parents and teachers and anyone else interested in our future as a country, will like it.
Ann in AZ @ 27
Duh…. that is what you get when you have been off of work for three weeks…. Ok…. going to get some chores done…
solai @ 24
Just joining and must do so on the fly, so if this has answered forive me.Which USA will bring the charges? And how does the return of the Court’s authority to name temporary USAs play into this?
WATERBOARDING. Am I completely out of my fucking mind, or is the only proper response to the next soft, fat, chickenhawk white boy (or girl) that says he/she “doesn’t know if waterboarding is torture,” to demand that he/she submit to it, with the proviso that if he can stand it for 10 minutes, then we will all agree that it is not torture? Even 5 minutes. What do you guys think? Is that fair and reasonable? Or am I just not serious enough?
Ann in AZ @ 27
Today @ 2 PM PDT:
Tomorrow @ 10:30 AM PDT:
yellowdog jim @ 19
Or you can watch it on your computer whenever you want once it’s up on the NBC Meet the Press website. I think it comes up by late afternoon on the day it shows.
solai @ 24
It’s nice to have hope, but Gonzo’s going to be pardoned. In fact, so many people will be pardoned that to poor little Preznit’s going to get writer’s cramp. I guess there’s some justice in that.
Your Sunday message from the big white chief:
Cheney: ‘We will not allow Iran’ to have nukes
Vice president warns U.S. is prepared to act if regime continues on course
The United States and other nations will not allow Iran to obtain a nuclear weapon, Vice President Dick Cheney said Sunday.
lahoma
OT, but Christy, did you hear that Fitz is getting married?
Since Bush says we do not torture…. then why is something like this is happening in Phoenix AZ?
Torture, beatings at west Phoenix drop house?
katymine @ 40
Even being caught in a lie does not deter the Decider from his next lie.
We are slipping into the quick sand.
lahoma
katymine @ 40
Sounds like a topic for the New Times to me! Katymine, do you have any further information on what’s going on with that. Sheriff Joe is a disgrace! I’m sure this is all his doing, along with some of his political allies. You know, I love the fact that he’s hard on animal abusers, but the rest of his crap is just that, crap and self-aggrandizement.
Steve-AR @ 28
refer to whom/what? DOJ, or directly to the USA, and if so, in what jurisdiction?
If DC, is it Taylor, and if it is, isn’t one of the Patriot Act USA whose time is up?
And on the topic of IG investigations, does anybody know where Pulhose is, beside of course “doing the work of the American people.”
Christy Hardin Smith @ 23
therein lies the rub. i believe if we could have bill answer that question, we would know the truth about whats going on now.
OT
raw story has something about
arrest at blackwater HQ.
but page unavailable keeps coming up.
has any one else tried to access this?
what’s it about?
Has anyone commented in the last 24 hours that Bush’s radio address was on Conservation of two fish species? Note: In the movie Dave, the President is replaced by a look alike, could this have happened to Bush?
Yesterday, Bush was holding a Screech Owl on his leather gloved hand and Cheney shot it and killed it. Just kidding about the last part. All of a sudden, Bush cares about Striped Bass and Red Drum fish. Something sounds fishy to me!
You go Lahoma!
Steve-AR @ 7
A little more on McKay’s recent comments re: DOJ in this posting I made @ TNH in the Stanford/Carol Lam interview thread:
“I was in Seattle last weekend on business & heard this from friends who attended the Tom Wales Foundation annual awards dinner on 10/13: Apparently McKay was the closing speaker & really “let the DOJ have it” for about 5 minutes. Write up from the emcee of the event here.”
Rule of law? How about asking congress, based upon evidence, if it’s okay to plunge the planet into world war.
Ann in AZ…. the questions I heard is WHY does the county sheriff have his own special prosecutor outside the county DA’s office? Andrew Thomas [repug dweeb] was really trying to clean this one up FAST.
The scary thing is what Old Joe was looking for……every user who hit the PHX New Times website from 2002 to today…..EVERY user…. even if you looked up a movie review or restaurant review
That is a really good question but anyone who has lived through the idiot Sheriff Joe reign of terror knows, he makes his own rules and the county pays for it later. Do you know that we have had a new risk manager every year for the last 5 years? He burns them up and they cannot stand how hard it is to keep the country not being flushed down the toilet of debt from legal actions. This one could of cooked the county for good
Let’s see if the Democrats take to task tomorrow what the proxy decider, the Dick, said about war with Iran today.
may @ 46
Yes, it’s about protesters being arrested for reenacting the Iraq incident and I believe they were defacing their sign. Here’s the link, maybe you can get to it better from here.
may @ 46
link
The view here is that the most important mutterance of the day is what Cheney uttered today.
katymine @ 51
Yes, I had read that (what I bolded.) I thought that the Fed opened the door, and the Sheriff swaggered right in! Amen is all I can add to your comment.
In the event of war with Iran, Blackwater will be used here at home to keep order.
And of course another war will help a great deal with air pollution.
Mukasey is another political pretender.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 55
It’s called softening up the opposition, if I’m not mistaken.
btw, OKK, how many BlackWater troops do you think it would take to subdue a nation of 300 million?
newtonusr @ 60
Depends on what resources and weapons they have. I’m thinking.
Speaking of links, I just realized I forgot to put the link into my number 31. Here’s how my part of the comment should have appeared:
Was just an an event in Yellow Springs Ohio with Governor Ted Strickland. Yellow Springs is very close to Wright Patterson Air Force Base and Air National Guard, lots of activity in the air today. We could barely hear what Ohio Governor Strickland had to say the jets were so loud.
Asked lots of folks on the bike path that runs along along an area called the Glen in Yellow Springs and most people thought there was double the amount of activity as usual?
Kathleen @ 63
Bully pulpit.
The Iranians are not going to back down. And they have Russia to back them up.
Our attitude in this house is that a lot of folks just don’t think a world war is possible.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 65
If you saw Maher this weekend, you saw Bill chat with Garry Kasparov. Very interesting.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 57
This is my worst nightmare! We really need to keep them out. They should bring back the national guard and send Blackwater over there. The meaning of “a well regulated militia ” as “being necessary to the security of a free State” was never meant to include the likes of mercenaries like Blackwater. They would be nothing more than glorified bounty hunters.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 61
They have weapons right now that can flatten an entire crowd, supposedly in a non-lethal way, using some kind of electro-magnetic pulse. It’s been around for years, and, if I’m not mistaken, is currently deployed in Iraq. That is what we are up against. Besides that, how many are actually willing to take to the streets with their hunting rifles to go up against mercenaries armed with automatic weaponry and full body armor? How many of us can be sure of making a head shot while under fire? And, how would you organize a large group to try, when all communications are being tapped? No, it’s much more likely we will all wind up being “good Germans,” and the real firebrands will be killed or disappeared. We waited too long, folks. Hope y’all were having fun the last 30 years, now shut up and go back to playing your video games.
thanks Ann in AZ and Oklahoma kiddo.
no joy though.
my skills and connections are slow-as-a-wet-week.
still,worth a try.
If they let Blackwater come into this country as a protective force, I predict it won’t be long before there is a paramilitary junta in charge of the country in a paramilitary coup. Then we may have a Prince at the head of our government after all, but it will be an Erik Prince.
I ask again – how many mercs do you think it would take to subdue a nation of 300 million?
may @ 70
You’re welcome, May, but it was Teddy San Fran that provided the other link.
By the way, folks, Jane has a new thread going upstairs.
newtonusr @ 72
I respectfully refer you to my response to your query at Comment #69. That is the reality. What is your solution?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 55
How much softer can the “supposed” opposition get?
toby martin @ 74
One more time…
How many mercs do you think it would take to subdue a nation of 300 million?
Not weapons, not airships, not bullets.
Ann in AZ @ 68
yeah right let the Iraqi people have the worst of the worse.
First of all, 30% of the nation would be on the side of the mercenaries. Second, the questiion is not how many have to be subdued. Rather, it is how many would actually stand up and fight in a given spot, because those are the only ones the mercenaries would have to be concerned about. Now, the answer to your question becomes, not more than they have available.
Additionally, remember that the police and the National Guard will also be lned up with the mercenaries, as will any military that get deployed domestically under Bush’s current authority. You do the math. We waited too long, plain and simple.
toby – there are 150,00 plus American forces in Iraq, and perhaps that many or more mercs. Fighting in a foreign land under outrageous environmental conditions, under ridiculous leadership, under very few restraints, fighting with maybe 25 million folks who don’t speak their language and who are brown.
And there is not here.
If our Middle East adventure has taught us anything, it is that weapons do not mean squat. It’s numbers.
toby martin @ 69
communications tapped or not,the extent of the shared knowlege is beyond any control.where discrete areas of knowlege were strictly local,
and the spread slow-slow.now,the dissemination of information is explosive,shifting on almost instantaneous cyber winds.yes,drivel, junk and mind glue abound,there is nothing new about that.we have shifted into a place where small groups and individuals make as much difference to the political landscape as the monster demonstrations of our recent past.as the repressive types find ways to negate the push for individual autonomy,the ways they discover become obsolete.where they are regimented,we are fluid.we cannot look to the past for concrete method.
the tragedy in Burma epitomises this.
before the communication revolution
the events in Burma and blackwaters’ activities would have flown under the radar(so to speak).
as an aside.
Aung San Suu Kyi is a recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize.
Those who belittle this prize because A.Gore also won,are belittling what is happening in Burma?
what,really is the difference between blackwater and the military in Burma?
newtonusr @ 80
You know, my most fervent wish is that you would be correct on this point, please believe me. But it’s not just numbers, it’s also motivation. This is an activist site, and I come here continually and try to get people to express some willingness to up the ante in the ongoing political battles. Guess what? With a handful of exceptions, and I bless them for being there, the vast majority even on this activist site would rather be genteel and gentle than ferocious. I’ve made a pest of myself urging people here to read the Declaration of Independence, and have received no supporting comments. Now project that into the population at large. and consider that organizing any movement would be well nigh impossible with the survellance capacities and environment we are now in. Further consider that the Democrats can be relied upon to come out against any violent action whatsoever. If you have a good solution to all that, I’m listening. But be careful how you express it, OK, because I am on your side.
may @ 81
Anybody who wanted the knowledge has had it for years. Have you seen any drastic action being taken anywhere? The most that can be hoped for is isolated angry shooters, a nuisance but not an impediment to the fascist machine. Sure, we now know about Blackwater, but do you think you will see them disappear as a result? Quite the contrary, I’d bet.
toby – When students and freedom activists marched in China, recall how difficult (at first at least) it was for Chinese troops to fire on their own?
I simply refuse to believe that there is the will to do that here, and that would require hundreds of thousands of foreign mercs. This may be a lack of imagination on my part, I will admit.
In a society where we may need to pull our chestnuts out of the fire to save ourselves, this is that point. There is a tradition of freedom here. And we’re not talking about bending over for examinations in airport security – we’re talking about the streets.
newtonusr @ 84
Brother, I love you for your idealism, it is an idealism I have shared my entire life. The America I love, the America I have always been proud to be part of, believed in “Don’t tread on me,” and “Give me liberty or give me death,” and the inspiration of the Declaration of Indeependence, which is as applicable today as it was in 1776, since we find ourselves equally governed without any true representation. But the last raucus demonstartion I remember was Kent State, where they did in fact fire on unarmed demonstrators. And, frankly, I don’t see much freedom in China since 1989, God knows what’s being done to keep those people down off-camera. If the past six years of vanishing freedom have not aroused anybody to action, it’s hard for me to be optimistic. In New Orleans, a couple hundred Blackwater guys were enough to prevent any uprising, even with all the justification those people had. With a volunteer army, I am not at all sure that the sympathy of the military would be with the citiznry, and I am quite certain that the sympathy of the police and the mercenaries would not be. I love a good fight, but not a hopeless one.
so – I ask again, just because we have defined our terms and set our idealism in perspective, my original question (with a modification) I posed to OKK:
How many soldiers and cops and mercs do you think it would take to subdue a nation of 300 million?
Also, please note the lack of particpation or support for this line of dialogue right here, on an “activist” site.
newtonusr @ 86
I think the answer is that they will have enough, along with the ability to get there the firstest with the mostest. A half-million? A million? Remember, they only have to defeat the fighters, not the women, not the children, not the pacifists, not those who are heavily invested in the system as it is.
toby martin @ 88
OK.
Smgumby @ 6
teacherken at DKos talked about this in a diary I read early this a.m.
“I am angry. I despair. I am outraged. I am exhausted. I teach about a government that perhaps no longer exists, one that had three co-equal branches, that had checks and balances, in which the power of the executive was limited, in which governmental functions were done by governmental employees subject to Congressional oversight, in which those who acted militarily on behalf of the United States were subject to the regulations of the UCMJ.”
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/10/20/61245/974
Waterboarding not torture?
Here’s a plan. Take the kids or wife of Mucus-ey and place them on a waterboard and submit them to it (since they claim it’s not actually harmful)…not stopping until the the good judge breaks down and says “okay, it’s torture”. Or alternatively, until the Judge says…”Do it to me instead”.
Or perhaps we could have the reverse situation occur…the Judge himself has to get on the board and undergoes the process until he says “Do it to Julia!” [apologies to 1984].
If Judge Mucus-ey doesn’t have enough information about waterboarding to make a judgement someone should give it to him!
newtonusr @ 86
30 million. 1 troop foe every 40 that you are trying to control
7.5 million. i screwed up calculation
It’s not Iraq or Vietnam, where everyone was against us. Here, a large portion of the population would be against the revolutionaries. Adjust your math.