If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you
But make allowance for their doubting too,
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated, don’t give way to hating
– From Rudyard Kipling’s "If"
The saying runs that you don’t really know your virtues or flaws until you’ve been tested by a crisis. Since we had Paul Krugman on today, a man who was tested and rose to the test, I want to talk about some people who met the test of 9/11 succesfully. Some came through unscathed, others paid a price, but none lost their head.
Let’s start with Krugman. Krugman met the test before it even occured. When Bush was first introducted as a "compassionate conservative" I, and many others, were willing to give him a chance. Say what you will about Bush Sr., but he wasn’t a wingnut. The man who coined "third chromosone conservative" and "voodoo economics" may have pandered occasionally, but he wasn’t crazy and he ran a basically excellent foreign policy. His domestic policy could best be called "benign neglect" — he just wasn’t all that interested.
So many of us were willing to give Bush Jr a chance. That changed, for me, because I read Krugman’s columns regularly. And week after week during the campaign Krugman kept doing the arithmetic and saying, in essence, "Bush is promising to spend the surplus twice". The numbers didn’t add up, and Bush kept not fixing them. He was lying about something very basic and obvious.
And while the New York Times wouldn’t let Krugman call them "lies" or call Bush a "liar" the rising anger in Krugman at being continually lied to made the words almost superfluous. Bush was lying, Krugman knew it, and if you were reading Krugman you knew it too. And it was unambiguous lying, not shading of the truth. It was 2-4=1. Really!
Of course, despite Krugman pounding on the issue from the most read real estate in newspaper, other journalists mostly didn’t pick up on it. Truth was much less interesting than whether or not Al Gore was an alpha male and had invented the internet, and Bush was the sort of guy you wanted to have a drink with (if you like having drinks with the sort of guy who likes pulling the wings off insects, which I guess the media does) so they wanted to give "nice guy" Bush a pass. And they did.
When 9/11 came around, the media went from "mostly in the tank" to "completely in the tank". The few exceptions, like Krugman, definitely proved the rule. And for the better part of a year and a half or so, it seemed like the only two major columnists who were willing to state that the Emperor had no clothes, that Iraq hadn’t attacked the US, that 9/11 might have had something to do with US policy and so on, were Krugman and the late Molly Ivins. You’d open the newspaper and it would be jingoistic propaganda from the front page to the back, with a lone voice amongst the columnists crying out "it’s lies. They’re lying." And while Krugman came through that as popular as ever, he was subject to incessant attacks, including e-mailed threats. Indeed a cottage industry grew up which poured over every column trying to find flaws, however tiny, in his economic reasoning (and failing miserably, to the extent that one of my best friends stopped reading right wing blogs because they’d link to said crap and every time "I"d look into it, and they were wrong and Krugman was right.")
Arguably the person who came through most spectacularly after 9/11 was Russ Feingold. When the entire Senate stampeded and voted for the Patriot Act, in an eerie precursor of the Bush-enabling behaviour and spinelessness we’ve all become so familiar with over the years, Russ voted against. It’s hard to know what to attribute this to other than bravery and personal integrity, because Feingold isn’t in a particularly liberal district. Unlike Barbara Boxer or Diane Feinstein, whose seats were 100% safe, Feingold isn’t in a deep blue state. From a pure political calculus point of view, he was a lot more "vulnerable" than most of his Senate colleagues.
But he still did the right thing.
I know there’s a lot of love out there in the blogosphere for Feingold. He’s almost always on the right side of every issue; he calls it like it is and he doesn’t seem scared of squat. Even on the rare occasion where I disagree with him I remember that he was the only Senator, the only one, who didn’t lose his head after 9/11 and let the administration stampede him.
In a sense Feingold is a living rebuke to every other Democratic Senator. When they say "we had no choice" he is living proof that they had a choice. When they say "we couldn’t have known, we didn’t have time to read the entire bill" he is living proof that they could have known, and should have known.
But he’s also a reminder to the rest of us that "keeping your head while all about you are losing theirs" is as uncommon today as it was in Kipling’s time and of just how deficient most of America’s leadership is in basic guts and integrity. Sure, people who can keep their head about them are rare, but 1 out of 100 of America’s greatest legislative body? The indictment against these people, who should be, at the least tough shrewd operators, is scathing.
The last of the three I’d like to touch on (and there are certainly many more who deserve props, like Bill Maher) is the one that makes me saddest.
September 24th, 2001, just 13 days after 9/11, she wrote the following in the New Yorker:
"Where is the acknowledgment that this was not a ‘cowardly’ attack on ‘civilization’ or ‘liberty’ or ‘humanity’ or ‘the free world’ but an attack on the world’s self-proclaimed superpower, undertaken as a consequence of specific American alliances and actions? How many citizens are aware of the ongoing American bombing of Iraq? And if the word "cowardly" is to be used, it might be more aptly applied to those who kill from beyond the range of retaliation, high in the sky, than to those willing to die themselves in order to kill others. In the matter of courage (a morally neutral virtue): Whatever may be said of the perpetrators of Tuesday’s slaughter, they were not cowards.
The Guardian wrote of the episode:
Sontag says: "I hope I’m not getting timid in my older years. I thought I was writing centrist, obvious mainstream commonsense. I was just saying, let’s grieve together, let’s not be stupid together." The reaction was ferocious; she received hate mail, death threats and calls to be stripped of her citizenship. For a few days she was part of the story. The New Republic ran an article asking what did Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein and Susan Sontag have in common. The answer: they all wish the destruction of America.
Sontag says: "I still think mine was the right response. But I was quite astonished. It all goes very, very deep. The American way of looking at themselves is that the US is an exception and doesn’t have a destiny like other nations. Anytime anything happens in the States, people are indignant. Americans are always talking about losing their innocence, but then they always get it back again. They say ‘Before, we were innocent; before, we were naive, trusting, gullible. But now we realise that it can happen here and we too are vulnerable.’ My deepest fear is that this time it’s true. The country does feel different. The forces of conformism and mindless acquiescence to authority have certainly been strengthened."
Indeed, what Sontag said was nothing but common sense. It was a common sense which today, nearly 6 years after 9/11, you still really aren’t allowed to say in polite discourse (though we’ve come somewhere when even a maverick Presidential candidate like Ron Paul can state it on stage, albeit to boos).
At the end of this day, this hysteria, this persistent myth that "we are the good guys, and no one could ever have a good reason to hate our guts" is what worries me most about Americans. The day of 9/11, which I experienced in the office, I turned to the co-worker next to me and I said "I hope to hell they don’t overreact and attack the wrong people".
That, of course, is exactly what happened. And it happened for the reasons that Sontag put so eloquently — because Americans were "stupid together".
And then, having attacked the wrong people (along, at least. with the right people in Afghanistan) Americans proceeded to, forgive the phrase, get their ass royally handed to them by a bunch of rabble. It’s the most pathetic thing imaginable, the nation that spends half the world’s military budget, getting whipped by forces which don’t have a budget equal to the rounding error of one pork-laden swill of an appropriations bill.
And the reason the US is losing was summed up very well by Sontag as well — because Americans won’t give thier enemies their virtues. The 9/11 bombers were not cowards. Bin Laden, on every piece of evidence, is a brave man — far, far braver than the "leader of the free world" George Bush, who ran away from military service. Bin Laden, by contrast, led troops from the front line. Nor are they stupid and they are far more committed to winning than the US. The reason the US is losing; the reasons that Israel got whipped by Hezbollah, are simple – they want to win more than the US does, they have out-thought US strategists repeatedly, and they are willing to pay the price for victory.
Or, as Sontag said, more briefly, Those who kill from beyond the range of retaliation, high in the sky, than to those willing to die themselves in order to kill others. In the matter of courage (a morally neutral virtue): Whatever may be said of the perpetrators of Tuesday’s slaughter, they were not cowards.
Not cowards. Not stupid. More committed to do what it takes to win than Americans.
Sontag told a truth most Americans weren’t able to hear. But it’s such truths — the ones we can’t hear, because they tell us a truth abour ourselves we don’t want to know, that we most need to hear. And for that, I remember her. Didn’t think much of her fiction, but as my uncles used to say "more guts than a slaughterhouse." And to that morally neutral virtue, she added the ability to see and tell the truth. (As for example when she said "Communism is fascism with a human face", a statement which was very controversial when she made it.)
All three, however, Krugman; Feingold; and Sontag, passed their test. They didn’t give into group think. They didn’t let fear or grief cloud their minds. They said and did what needed to be said and done, and in return they were viciously attacked for it. They deserve to be honored for having the guts to stick to their guns and each of us, in turn, should think on whether we would follow in their steps — or in those of the vast majority who lost their heads while all around them everyone else lost theirs. For while it may be human to lose your head, in the end the cost for the human desire to wallow in grief and rally around with the tribe in self-serving group-think, has been the death of thousands of American soldiers, the maiming of many more, the death of probably a million Iraqis, and the gutting of the American constitution.
That’s an awfully high price to pay, but when you lose your head, you may cause others to literally lose theirs. Such self-indulgence can never, ever, be acceptable in those who occupy either the highest places of power or the most influential places in the media.
Feingold, Sontag and Krugman lived up to the responsibility their positions and prestige inherently demanded.
Related posts:
- Early Morning Swim: Lawrence O’Donnell and Eric Burns of Media Matters Discuss Fox News’ Agenda
- Paul Krugman on “This Week”: “The Argument Against the Public Option is Sheer Nonsense”
- On “This Week,” Paul Krugman Dispatches 3 Wingnut Talking Points on Auto Industry in 2 Minutes
- Feingold: No Public Option “A Very Strong Reason Not To Support” A Health Care Bill





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2
Ian!!!
can’t believe I got EPU’ed
Steve-AR @ 1
You are doing this On Purpose, aren’t you?
Well said!
And let’s hope the list is longer the next time the shit hits the fan.
FISA is the current test of courage:
Dodd, Feingold, Biden, ???
Speaking truth to power.
demi @ 4
No, just checked FDL after 15 miles on the bike and saw the spinning wheel of doom.
Steve-AR @ 7
A hard-refresh should relieve that issue.
That’s a great piece. It’s a shame those who most need to read it are too lazy or stupid to do so.
Krugman got EPU’d at 198 last thread!
LOL
i thought Dodd voted against the Patriot act???
A great essay, but you made one glaring mistake.
Attacking Afghanistan was as wrong as attacking Iraq.
We were not attacked by Afghanistan.
In fact, it has not been established WHO actually attacked us, who was behind the attack.
We were led to believe that OBL ordered the hit, but he is not considered wanted by the FBI for that “crime”. He may be wanted for others, but not 911.
We do not know who staged the events on 911.
We have attacked Afghanistan for the same reasons we did Iraq and will do Iran… their energy reserves and their strategic position.
What an excellent post. Thanks for reminding us that we do have clear thinkers in our midst and that they will speak out.
I don’t think it’s right to question Philip Zelikow’s version of 9/11 during the Global War on Terror.
yellowdogD @ 10
He should just come upstairs, since he’s being “featured”! :}
Let’s talk about those who failed the test,
and who should never be paid attention to again:
Andrew Sullivan.
David Brooks.
Virtually the entire Washington Post staff,
minus Walter Pincus, Dana Priest, Eugene Robinson and E.J. Dionne.
Our press is so polluted with disinformation it hardly differs from Pravda.
We have a propaganda organ for the right wing. (of course they need a few lefties to sound “balanced”)
Back when feminista didn’t hate my guts I actually won an award (well, everyone who wanted one got one, it wasn’t an exclusive affair) and I dedicated mine to Susan Sontag:
http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..nti-award/
Beautifully written, Ian. Thanks so much.
Stifle LS!!!!!
The Lurking Mod @ 8
Lurking Mod, I’m having serious WP issues, the error code keeps getting rejected…!!! 8-(
Jane Hamsher @ 18
You both deserve an award for courage and honesty!!
Well, I can disagree with Susan Sontag civilly. When you’re dealing with a man who thinks that he’s entitled to 72 virgins for what he’s done, when he’s done, cowardice and bravery are really not adequate terms to describe what’s going on. Calling bin Laden a coward was simply Bush and his cronies throwing so rhetorical poo at an opponent, and it was unfortunate that Sontag dignified that rhetorical poo with a response.
im wrong,he voted against renewal …sorry
Ian,
Thank you for these tributes. I thought the third was going to be Molly Ivins, but I don’t recall what she was writing after 9/11. But thank you for reminding us about Susan Sontag.
Bob in HI
Thanks Ian for reminding us that “Tell the truth, not the politic, polite, half fictions” should be our daily demand. Paying deference to the rightwing rhetoric has been the downfall of our so called leadership from the beginning.
Some of the 9/11 widows were also pretty clear-eyed about the causes and implications of that event and they were largely ignored and certainly not defended when reviled by the wingnuts.
ploeg @ 23
Lots of folks believe that they’re going to heaven. But push-come-to-shove, most of them still want to live. I think it’s splitting semantics awfully fine to say that men who are willing to die for their beliefs are cowards though I understand your point
Most Americans believe in Christ; believe they’re going to heaven, and still want desperately to live. 72 virgins is something westerners get real hooked on, but it’s just another way of saying “heaven”.
Ian Welsh @ 27
Bah, editing produced two comments. Weird.
Ian, lovely job. I’ve been saying much the same thing for six years, after having read Imperial Hubris and Against All Enemies. It is clear to anyone who chooses to put the time and effort into understanding a little of why things happened that the US “foreign” policy (in quotes because it appears to be driven largely by corporate desires rather than political needs) was and is the driving force behind much of the hatred directed at the United States today.
To paraphrase an old commercial, we got our enemies the old fashioned way. We earned them.
That said, only our elite are fully responsible, and their enabling tools, of course. Normal people who expected their government to abide by the Constitution and actually govern in a responsible manner, well, we bear some moral responsibility, I think, because we didn’t think we needed to check. We didn’t think we could understand. We didn’t think our voices mattered. Well, we did, we can, and they do.
People who start wars as a way of dealing with criminal acts are nuts in at least one way. 9/11 was a criminal act, more than an act of war, no matter how much Cheney and his puppet say it was war. It should have been handled like the 1993 bombing, or any of the airliner hijackings of the 60s and 70s. (I guess Bush was too far out of it to remember those.)
sadly yes @ 24
I remember that there was only one Senator who voted against the original act. I remember wondering at the time if everyone in Washington had gone mad or something. That it passed didn’t surprise me; that so few voted against it did.
Ian Welsh @ 29
What browser and platform (PC or Mac) are you using, Ian?
PJ, you did get the get together invitation, right?
The product of the MSM is a public that is ignorant of their own history, the history of other nations and foreign cultures in general. Only about 25% of the population has a passport. Mark Twain said travel is the antidote to bigotry, prejudice and narrow mindedness. Is it any wonder that Americans are nationalistic xenophobes willing to support what the media and the ruling elites demand of them? Everyone in the world sees this but Americans themselves.
Ian Welsh @ 28
As an atheist, I’m afraid I must disagree, albeit civilly. :-)
I’ve spent my entire life surrounded by religious people of varying levels of sanity, every one of whom would be terrified of living in a world without their imaginary friend and super hero.
While I recognize that humans aren’t going to outgrow religion any time soon, I still feel no particular obligation to embrace it or to do anything other than speak my truth about it. I read a great deal of history and frankly, I’m sick of the excesses perpetrated in the name of one imaginary super hero or another. Lets let people accept the responsibility for their own actions without the imaginary endorsement of some figment of the lizard brain.
SanderO @ 12
I don’t know what you’re reading, but your skepticism about Bin Laden sounds forced. What evidence do you have for these assertions? The connection between Bin Laden and 9/11 is far more credible than anything that has been put forward about Iraq and 9/11. Afghanistan in 2001 was a failed state, and the Taliban ethos matched perfectly the rural peasant ethos of most of Afghanistan. I say this because as a grad student in anthropology back in the 70s, I read about Afghan rural culture. The evidence connecting 9/11 and Afghanistan was good enough that I have always supported our military intervention into Afghanistan, and so has most of the world. But I have always opposed the Iraqi adventure, which had nothing whatever to do with 9/11. So I’m with Ian on this.
Bob in HI
The Lurking Mod @ 33
PC, XP, Mozilla.
Lets let people accept the responsibility for their own actions without the imaginary endorsement of some figment of the lizard brain.
I don’t think that people embracing faith necessarily precludes other people taking responsibility for their thoughts and actions.
And, I’m certainly not prostelitzing here. It just seems to be faulty logic.
Surely we haven’t forgotten Mike Moore and the librarians. Mike’s book, “Stupid White Men” was due out in late September 2001 and the publisher withdrew it. For a while it looked as if they intended to burn the whole press run. The book was, of course, released in about January, and for all its flaws was one of the only bright spots in that bleak winter when the Cult of Bush was full ascendant. I saw him in Chicago; it felt courageous simply to go where he was speaking. And he went straight to work on Farenheit 9/11, whose opening weekend was another rare moment when I thought national sanity might be restored.
And the librarians — God bless them! — who were working on ways to subvert the Patriot Act before the ink was dry. Some went so far as to purge all borrowing records from their files rather than obey the Orwellian rules permitting John Ashcroft to peruse them in absolute, total secrecy.
Had the Medal of Freedom not been so debased by Bush, I’d recommend one for each of them.
On 9/11/01 at my office (a Gov. office) while watching the towers come down, I turned to my associates and said “this is a hell of a time to have this ass hole as our fucking President” I wasn’t popular for a long time, but I know the feeling of having the rest of the world catch up with you.
My wife said last night that the American people only want out of Iraq because they’re bored, not because they even begin to understand the enormity of what these neocons have wrought.
If tomorrow Bush comes on TV and says that new secret info proves Iran has a bomb and plans to use it, and that he is sending bombers right now to take them out, the nation and media will fall back in formation and go marching off again.
We few, we proud, will no longer have a home.
Amen.
Excellent as always, Ian. I really look forward to your posts.
Very thoughtful Ian, thank you.
Jane Hamsher @ 18
OT..Hate you guts? Why?
pablo @ 41
My grandmother died at the age of 93 two months after 9/11/01. On her deathbed she said the same thing that having George Bush and his crop running the country during this time would only be bad for our country. “The country will never be the same”, she said. She told me that she was glad to be leaving this world but she feared for all of us kids who will be left behind to live through it. Gawd, was she right!
bobschacht @ 36
To continue that thought, as I recall Afghanistan’s government, such as it was (and the whole “failed state” thing appears to me to be more of a rationale than anything else), did not attack the US. Allegedly, and I use that term deliberately as none of the evidence has been made public so far as I’m aware (where did that second stage investigation into 9/11 ever go?), a Saudi Arabian national with the aid of a LOT of Saudi nationals committed a terrorist act on US soil. Of course, those making the accusations are known liars, so I take it with a grain of salt. Not that the basic facts are wrong, but that they have deliberately left a great many very pertinent facts out of the discussion; lying by omission, if you will.
In essense, we had a very emotional reaction to the 9/11 event and as a country chose to attack another country as some sort of cathartic release. One of the earlier posters was quite correct. The 9/11 response should have been a law-enforcement action, not a military action.
By the way, I freely predict that the “coalition” that invaded Afghanistan will exit, stage Right, within five years with the Taliban firmly back in charge.
demi @ 38
I completely agree that it does not preclude taking responsibility. However, I don’t see it happening a lot. It seems to be the fundamental reaction of the Religious Right to blame anyone or anything other than themselves. This was my point.
Bluetoe @ 35
What truly amazed me was that a person of GWB’s station in life, who had every opportunity to travel, was so incurious that he would forgo that great opportunity.
R. Manhammer @ 36
As a Baha’i, I would point out that the rejection of each other’s prior faith, and, schism’s within each of them have been the principal source of much of the barbarity.. Acceptance of one another’s belief would certainly have alleviated 99% of the problem…!!! *g*
In the run-up to Iraq, I was totally amazed at the lemming mentality of most of the public and almost all of the press. Morality aside, from the standpoint of logic an pragmatism, GHW Bush and even Cheney had previously stated why any overthrow and occupation of Iraq would be sheer stupidity. Like we needed our own Gaza. I think the relationship between Bush 1 and his idiot son would have been a tragedy worthy of Shakespeare. Should I tell my country about my son? I think Brent Scowcroft tried.
yellowdogD @ 48,
I see him as a minor gang character who doesn’t want to leave his ‘hood, where he’s a biggish fish in a small pond and people are appropriately askeered of him.
Big bad world make Bushie afraid. Better avoid it.
yellowdogD @ 47
OMG! You are so right! If I were the obscenely rich scion of an obscenely rich family, I would travel everywhere. My passport would be in multiple volumes because of all the stamps! I’d sail around the world, cruise the Amazon, climb the Alps (they look so incredibly rugged from the air), walk through Africa and India, have an apartment in Paris, New York, and Rio. My list is endless, really. I can’t quite understand how someone would squander this kind of opportunity. Maybe Jesus told him to stay home; he seems to tell him everything else.
Ian Welsh @ 28
Atheists have their own faith. It’s the faith that allows them to get up in the morning, every morning, no matter what, and live life the way that they see best.
No, the main thing about the whole “evil cowards who hate us for our freedom” bit is that it’s the exact same rhetoric that was used against the Soviets. And unfortunately, that’s how the whole GWOT has been, we’re approaching the GWOT as we would have approached a Soviet column advancing through the Fulda Gap. It took guts for Sontag to say what she said at the time, it was just unfortunate that she thought that point worth arguing.
CTuttle @ 48
Brilliant. Wish I’d thought of that. Yes, you are right.
ploeg @ 53
Heh, I guarded the Fulda gap before the wall fell… And, yes the Alps are as rugged as they appear from the air…!!! 8-)
I wouldn’t call Bush Sr.’s foreign policy “basically excellent,” or even good.
He was up to his eyeballs in the Iran-Contra scandal during the Reagan administration and gave Saddam Hussein the idea that he could attack Kuwait without consequences.
Those are two rather large strikes.
Yee-up. CTuttle Is our Brilliant Islander, mon.
(hi ct).
R. Manhammer @ 54
Danke Schon!!! *g*
demi @ 57
Aloha, Demi!!! *sigh* I lost my ‘f’…
Philly Boy @ 56
And then the laughable Panama invasion. Well, at least Bush the Elder could finish his wars.
ian, it’s a beutiful piece you wrote and i enjoyed every bit of it, but in the spirit of susan santag, I must dissagree with one of your paragraphs and point out the brutal truth beyond your pros;
this is incomplete ian
bush and the PNAC are facilitating the success of those that band against us, when the administration was informed that if he were to attack Iraq he would be facilitating our enemies, he was informed he would not only be abandoning the fight against terrorism, he would create a war call and a recruitment poster and the world would band against America in response
yet he went ahead anyway, yet he secretly diverted resources, man power, hardware funding, FROM the fight against terrorism, almost as if he were spending these resources ON THE TERRORISTS BEHALF
this becomes brutally clear, when the administration actually ordered our forces to stand down as they had bin laden cornered at the foot hills of tora bora
as he diverted the resources from where they needed to be if we were to have any success
as he squandered the worldwide good will…deliberately…and turned into the most vile hatred America has ever known
as he wastes our armed forces to the point of frightening sparsity
as he deliberately takes state resources, absolutely neccessary for national security and he deliberatley overextends those resources, our national guard
as he deliberately underfunds the services we need to provide our returning heroes
as he deliberately left the infrastructure of Iraq to be pillaged and ruined to the point where the second most oil rich nation on the planet has to wait in line for gasoline
and as their hospitols get only one or two hours of electicity a day
AND AS HE PROMOTES THE POLICIES OF TORTURE WHEN THE ONLY WAY WE CAN WIN IS TO WIN THEIR HEARTS AND MINDS
if this ian, were a novel, we would put that novel down as being too incredible
we are being led to failure in deliberation, it is part of the plan
it’s been said American can never be conquered by another country, we would be conquered from within, it would come rapped in a flag
I don’t know the exact quote or the attribution but this is what is happening here
it is NOT our lack of will that we looose
it IS the plan and it is unfolding and we are watching it unfold and we have been hypnotized and we actually do not recognze THAT is what’s happening
there are so many trees that we cannot see the forest
but it is a forest for sure, we are under seige, we have been taken over in a silent coup
Oh, Perris,
My dear, you do go on, but all of your words ring true.
I’m bumming now.
Hug?
ploeg @ 59
He handled the devolution of the Warsaw Pact and the USSR brilliantly. Credit where credit is due. Panama wasn’t anything that harmed the US in any way. Only real strike against him is the mishandling of Kuwait/Iraq, which was perhaps a big deal, but I’ve always wondered if that was a sucker play.
CTuttle @ 59
Here’s dakine01’s solution…
1) there is a box labeled “Meta” above on the right side about the level of comment 12 or 13.
2) go to your facebook profile page;
3) copy your profile page’s URL;
4) your Meta box …
(suzanne, does it say “Register” for LS, instead of Log In?)
uh, try either, maybe “Register”;
5) when they ask for your facebook address just use your profile URL.
6) then they check out your email by sending you a password.
7) with password then, Login at the Meta box.
8) i know i messed this up somewhere.
9) good luck.
10) ask questions
11) take care.
demi @ 62
always 4 u a hug demi
me thinks this quote, to which someone refreshed our memory a few chapters ago fits perfectly for ian’s post today;
“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace.
We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you.
May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”
– Samuel Adams, American Patriot and politician
R. Manhammer @ 36
“imaginary super hero?”
“figment of the lizard brain?”
Where I come from, that’s not civil discourse. Those are gratuitous insults. Why should I respect your views after you have so clearly disrespected mine?
Ian Welsh @ 63
I voted against him twice, but basically agree with your description. He knew voodoo economics when he saw it, had no radical foreign policy, and was a relief after Reagan in terms of the conservative effort to undo the New Deal. I Panama thing seemed very iffy in regard to international law and I despised the nasties he allowed to run his political campaign. But he explained full well why the invasion of Iraq would be moronic.
Perris
is that the XXX’s or the OOO’s, I can never remember.
I’m not bummed anymore.
And, here, you can have some of my roasted chicken.
I believe my own eyes and ears.
Ian Welsh @ 63
As far as GWI played out, the major FU was letting Saddam pound the crap out of the Basra Shi’a, while we collectively sat on our thumbs in Kuwait… I opposed it back then, while in uniform, fortunately, I was tasked to equip and train NG units headed there, and missed the fun…!!! 8-)
Let’s make the title of this “When It Mattered,” which was back in the fall of 2001, when about 10% of the country knew Bush was a scumbag and the wrong guy for the job. Yes, Ian, you “and a lot of other Americans” fell for Bush, and we’re happy you found Jesus, but why should we listen to you when you were so wrong when it mattered?
Good commentary. A few exceptions, however.
(1) Bill Maher has lost his place on the short list for this distinction by his repudiation of citizens who dare challenge the whitewashing job done by the 9/11 Commission. While I in no way support hecklers on his live show, he has demonstrated for the entire world how self-assured someone can be about an opinion on a subject that someone CLEARLY is ignorant about.
(2) Plenty of the people we have killed, left homeless or parentless, or wounded terribly in Afghanistan were the wrong people. I’m not saying that we shouldn’t have gone into Afghanistan after bin Laden. However, the comment that “…having attacked […] the right people in Afghanistan…” strikes me as leaving out that part of the story that doesn’t make the U.S. look so good. I have visions of dead and orphaned children along with homeless refugees in my head when I hear mention of “the right people.”
(3) Feingold is SOOO wrong on the electronic voting machine issue, that I am having a hard time with his being on this particular pedestal. But then, this is my little hissy fit, as I believe that clean, honest, accurate elections are the key to keeping thugs like Bush and Cheney out of the White House in the first place.
demi @ 69
i c4n h4z ch1ck3n?
newtonusr @ 64
The prob is the error code box has (lower?) case no.’s and keep rejecting me…!!!
Veritas78 @ 72
I still matters, daily.
Veritas78 @ 72
So presumptuous and so wrong.
1) Back in 2001, as I described under the Krugman section, I knew Bush was an incompetent liar.
2) I’m not American.
3) I was against the war from the beginning.
What is it they say about the word “assume”?
goodgirlroxie @ 73
All wars are horrible, it’s one of the reasons we need to be very careful, and set the bar very high, for war. Afghanistan was, actually, not handled very well, but that’s a whole seperate argument.
Sorry,getting used to a laptop, and I posted in the wrong blog.
Doesn’t work like a pc now does it?
tw3k @ 75
And because there aren’t enough of you self-appointed Kewl Kidz to get a damn thing done in this country. You need the assistance of those you so smugly put down. Remember that.
“Group think”? We’re going through that right now. Everyday. But I’m not going to give in to the group think which hammers us everyday with the ‘fact’ that Hillary Clinton is shoo-in.
burnspbesq @ 66
I’m not looking for a fight, but where I come from, pointing out that the Emperor has no clothes is not an insult to the Emperor.
There has been a good bit of research done on the brain structures that mediate the “religious experience.” You can read about it on the net. Go to Google, type “brain religion” and get eleven million hits. Read.
As for the “superhero” part, again, it’s not an insult, simply a non-religious description of various gods. At one point in human history, Thor was a very serious god, according to the people who believed in him. Today, he has his own comic book. But then, so does Battle Pope (no, I’m not making this up).
At the most basic, it boils down to the fact that religious people believe in stuff that simply is not true. The definition of faith that I learned in church is the belief in things for which you have no evidence. Some call it faith, I call it delusion.
Some delusions are fun. Some, apparently, are critical to our development and maintenance as human beings. For example, depression is usually accompanied by a lack of delusion about our importance to other people. The condition is vastly more reality-based than the usual cloud we operate within, and yet it’s associated with a brain malfunction.
tw3k:
Of course, sweetie. Dark or White?
(I haven’t made any sides, yet…maybe I’ll get to that and maybe I won’t! Ha)
burnspbesq @ 80
say again! rephrase, I don’t understand.
“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace.
We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you.
May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”
– Samuel Adams, American Patriot and politician
Thanks for that.
demi @ 83
>’ . ‘
The impression here is that Rep. Pete Stark is the latest to “pass the test”.
R. Manhammer @ 82
Einstein once said that that which science could not speak on, it should remain silent on. He was talking about whether God existed or not. The fact of the matter is that while it is possible to prove certain myths wrong, it is not possible to prove there is no creator. You can say “it’s not necessary to have a creator”, you cannot prove one does not exist. (And that’s only one definition of a god anyway.)
I would rather this thread not go into the whole atheism debate, but I will note (and I am not religious, but am an agnostic) that the certainty of certain brands of atheists is as much a matter of faith as that of the religious people they like to mock and feel superior to (and yes, calling people delusional is insulting).
tw3k @ 86
lol, the angel brackets totally killed that one.
either or, thx! I’ll steams the sweet peas :D
ploeg @ 60
Yeah, he’s pretty efficient when he has to hush up his middlemen.
CTuttle @ 70
I was at Ft Knox at the time, getting checked out on M1s. I missed the fun because, as my branch officer put it, “Lieutenant, if I don’t get to go, you surely don’t get to go.” :-)
There were a number of very strange things going on under Bush the Enfeebled, not least of all was the Panamanian invasion (utterly illegal, IMO). Moreover, when April Glaspe greenlighted the invasion by Iraq, I find it impossible to believe she did it without instructions. My guess is that Bush, the former CIA Director, was cleaning up old CIA business by taking down those who were refusing to cooperate anymore. After all, both Noreiga and Hussein were supported by the CIA at the beginning of their respective careers.
FWIW, the Iraqis were pissed at the Kuwaitis for slant-drilling into the Iraqi oil fields. The Kuwaitis gave them the finger and continued to pump Iraqi oil. Funny how seldom this is mentioned.
Burnsie,
I think it’s a matter of semantics and language.
I believe that when people are speaking different languages, there is no communication.
Or, it’s thwarted.
I really look forward to meeting you in a couple of weeks.
We’ll share the fishes and loaves, eh?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 87
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zh_sxilhyV0 !
R. Manhammer @ 81
Not looking for a fight? Coulda fooled me, but that’s OK, you won’t get one here. What you will get is a gentle reminder that “incapable of proof given the limitations of our current science” and “not true” are NOT synonymous. And I suspect you know that perfectly well.
What drives me crazy about atheists is the condescension.
Ian,
Thank you.
Nice save.
:) & XXX
tw3k @ 83
I was addressing the person to whom you were responding, suggesting (perhaps too indirectly) that condescension toward potential allies isn’t a winning strategy when you need to build a coalition in order to get things done.
demi @ 95
I’ll second that.
my quick 2 cents on relgion and god
first
the two are mutually exclusive, there can be religions without god, there can be god without religion, there can be neither, there can be both
second
the belief in god gives us imortality, since we know we will die we want to believe we will not
Ian Welsh @ 87
Einstein also said that there was no room in physics for an interventionist god. Personally, I take no position on whether there was a “creator” because I think the answer, if there is one, is unknowable. However, I do take issue with the current set of jesus myths.
Ian Welsh @ 87
My apologies if you felt insulted. Such is not my intention. However, it is clinically correct. Like you, I’m not interested in this devolving into a theist/atheist discussion, so this will be my last post on the subject.
OT – dayum! being Oral Roberts son certainly has its perks.
(warning: pdf)
I suspect Roberts junior is going to spend some time in the hooskow for tax evasion.
perris @ 98
There is only one truth.
Ian, Thanks for the post. The Maher comments proved to me how the MSM can make an issue of a non-story like they are doing to Pete Stark.
LS @ 101
And, I, of course, don’t have the slightest idea what it is, and never will…
burnspbesq @ 93
LOL! Count your blessings. At least I’ve not told you that you are going to hell because of your beliefs. :-)
I get that one pretty regularly.
Peace.
LS @ 99
why is that?
if we believe in god, he could easily create many truths, he is all powerfull
I think that those that believe “there can only be one truth” underestimate
nor do I
anyway, that’s a long discussion and I am off for bed
burnspbesq @ 95
That is a worthy point.
I am not in favor of religion and I try to tone down my views in light of the diversity of beliefs here and I am offended at the terms atheist, gentile and other christian references I read. So it goes.
If one had looked carefully at the track record of George W. Bush from his college days through his “military service” (’Nam dodger), through his business dealings and his tenure as Governor of Texas, that should have been enough to not vote for this man for president the first time. Let alone the second time.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 105
It only matters how he’s perceived.
It’s the stuff in the chicken that’s making you sleepy.
Pleasant dreams.
perris @ 105
What I mean is that there is only “one” truth…what is, is, whether there be a million bigillion components…whatever is, “is”.
demi @ 106
will dream of teh x’s and o’s demi
see all early manana
Olbermann “passes the test” every day.
JPL @ 108
“Group think” perhaps?
Ian Welsh @ 63
What sucker play?
Whatever is, is’s…that works too. :>
LS @ 100
I’ve no idea if this was posted tongue in cheek, but I find it very interesting that the Western religions and the Western intellectual tradition are inherently mono-truth, and the Eastern religions (and possibly their intellectual traditions as well, but I honestly don’t know) are multi-truth.
Myself, I tend to be a multi-truth sort of guy. I find it to be nearly impossible to understand ALL of any particular situation, even those in which I’m a primary participant. It’s interesting that our individual “truths” tend to vary a great deal depending on our individual values. I’m not enough of a philosopher to understand why that might be.
LS
I say that a lot. It is what it is.
(and, btw, when your first referenced One Truth, a few comments ago, I automatically thought, Yeah, we’re tenacious, foul-mouthed DFH.)
Damn straight truth.
I hate to be OT but I know Tuttle is happy..me too
Jane Hamsher @ 18
I’m guessing you have Annie’s book “A Photographer’s Life 1990-2005″ lying around the house somewhere.
Tina @ 113
Sucker play as in Bush wanted a war, so he wanted Saddam to invade Kuwait to give him an excuse.
Excellent essay. I agree with your three proponents of reality (and that there are more unnamed) and was especially struck by this longer quote from Susan Sontag, from the 24 September 2001 issue of The New Yorker that you cite. It remains accurate and prophetic, but more people now see it as so:
The likes of Pelosi and Reid, Rockefeller, Hoyer and Emanuel seem intent that we remain stupid together.
JPL @ 117
Me three.
Ian Welsh @ 119
That’s how I read it.
Of course, I’m a known cynic. :-)
LS @ 107
but maybe not, maybe there are quite a few of these truths, each oposing each other, as in an alternate universe where one plus one actually does equal 4, where there is a base of 7 instead of a bsse of ten
a long time ago, when I first found out about “black holes”, I speculated that we were a white whole inside of a black whole, we were expanding (the big bang) and we would eventually contract (black whole turns into white whole and visa versa)
we are expanding now, when we contract physics will indeed turn around, then when we expand again, there might even be new physics with a completeley alien set of “truths” and these “thruts” will ever change with every expansion and contraction
and now it seems that theory has made it’s way to be a fair speculation
anyway, long ago I should have clised my eyes for the night
g’night firedogs
R. Manhammer @ 91
I would concur with that! I was a Noncom, Commo Chief for my Unit…!!!
Tina @ 114
And Ronald Reagan, Prez Bush’s hero sure made short work of that threat to world peace, Grenada.
Ian,
Nice post. I remember the day that Mary McGrory got on the war drum bandwagon. I felt betrayed. Scott Simon on NPR too. It seemed as if the whole thinking world had gone mad.
Ian, So you mean by Sucker Play that Saddam thought we would stay out of that invasion. Was that because some unnamed senior official actually told him that?
And what of the many Democrats who helped in the group think to attack Iraq?
CTuttle @ 123
I started out enlisted, too. Got to Staff Sergeant in the Infantry, then went to the Dark Side. :-)
R. Manhammer @ 116
It is not about religion, but religion is encompassed in it. It is about reality, or what we “experience”. Our minds love to tell us stories to make us feel save or special..if we heavily attach to a particular “story”, we risk the “holier than thou” thing, or “spiritual materialism”….all of that…all that we think about who we are is based on stories we tell ourselves and that other people tell us. Stories may or may not be true, but, ultimately, whatever the truth is, it is, even if it is composed of billions and billions of “stories”…that is part of the truth.
JPL @ 126
The ambassador seems to have given him that impression. Though some say it was a misunderstanding. And, honestly, it could just have been a screwup.
R. Manhammer @ 114
I think it also has a lot to do with the asian mindset which is very, very heavy on ‘the good of the group’ over the ‘good of the individual’ . So the predisposition for multiple truths is there. Something i still need to explore in depth but that’s the bare bones of my idea of it.
It is amazing to me what has been done by this country without solid proof. Notwithstanding the 9/11 Commission, what happened that day has never been proved. It is guilt by staggering innuendo.
The NEXT day, we KNEW who the perpetrators were, how?, from the manifest of passengers? We could read a list of passengers names and we could know who killed the pilots and crashed the planes? There were no living witnesses. A few phone calls from the planes, but no positive IDs.
Ah, somebody took a pilot course. Must’ve been him.
All those Arabs laughing on TV. And we know that they were laughing at the events of 9/11 how? Because we were told that is what they were doing?
And those videotapes of bin Laden talking in Arabic about 9/11. Remember him laughing? And we know that the translation was accurate, how? Because we were told it was accurate?
KSM was captured and we were told he was the mastermind behind 9/11. Oh yeah? When did we hear him speak? When did we see the evidence of that? But, gosh, we were TOLD he was the mastermind of 9/11. Must be true.
When you look back and think about all that we have done on the absolute flimsiest of evidence, it’s appalling and embarrassing and it is the opposite of patriotic. It also explains why the administration behaves as it does. It has to cover up its heinous acts done on the flimsiest of evidence at all costs and it is getting ever more desperate.
Can you say Gitmo? Military tribunals? Decimation of Habeas Corpus? Retroactive immunity? Extreme efforts to prevent evidence from seeing the light of day?
In a related situation, they send Jose Padilla to the brig in the district of the 4th Circuit Court, the country’s most conservative. Not an accident. He’s convicted because of fingerprints on a piece of paper — fingerprints don’t come with dates. When were those fingerprints placed on the paper? They drove him out of his mind and could have easily had him touch that paper anytime and he wouldn’t have even been aware of it. Ta da, evidence to convict, unfortunately not beyond a reasonable doubt, for someone with half a brain.
OMG, I must hate America and I must want the terrorists to win! Oh, I am so naughty!
Great, great stuff Ian. And I went back and read “If” for the first time since I don’t know when. That ain’t bad either.
And we are ‘group thinking’ our way to Iran.
Ian Welsh @ 129
We seem to have lots of those with the Bush’s.
Maggie @ 134
Go watch Loosechange2 and 9/11 mysteries…interesting questions there.
Thank you for this post Ian. A lot to think about.
The concept of the “Failed state” is the most important advance in international politics of the last 7 years (I give the Bush administration no credit for this). Afghanistan certainly was a failed state in 2001. But they willingly harbored Osama Bin Laden, the Taliban, Mullah Mohammed Omar, and others, and did nothing to try to control them.
But Afghanistan is where their training camps were. Osama wasn’t there on vacation.
So, what is it that was left out? Ethereal vaguaries do not make a solid argument.
You’re forgetting that the U.S. attempted to get Afghanistan’s government to hand over Bin Laden and Omar for trial, and refused. In other words, we started out attempting a law-enforcement action, but we were thwarted by the Afghan government.
Unfortunately, you may be right about that.
Bob in HI
Beerfart Liberal @ 134
There’s another great one from Helen Keller “I am only one, but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but still I can do something; and because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.”
Ian Welsh @ 130
From April Glaspie’s Wikipedia page:
Later the transcript has Glaspie saying: “We have no opinion on your Arab-Arab conflicts, such as your dispute with Kuwait. Secretary Baker has directed me to emphasize the instruction, first given to Iraq in the 1960s, that the Kuwait issue is not associated with America.”
It looks pretty clear to me that Glaspie had her instructions and played her part as desired. Bush got his casus belli.
Hate to admit it but I’m one of those poeple who jumped on the war bandwagon and I thought it was great, right through them pulling down that statue of Saddam. I was on board. Yippee. Weren’t those embedded reporters GREAT!!! And that poor little girl that got separated from her convoy and got rescued… I bought it all. Then shortly after – and I remember the exact time and where I was but I won’t bore you with the details – I finally, finally realized — these guys don’t know what the fuck they’re doing. And when they finally caught Saddam somebody came in the office with the paper with the huge headline all happy and I just didn’t give a shit.
Thanks for resurrecting “If” and Kipling’s picture. England’s poet of imperialism tempered his enthusiasm for it after the seering experience of the First World War.
The professional army Kipling knew from his time in India – where many of its men and non-coms spent years learning their trade – was annihilated by the end of December 1914. There were forty-six and a half months of war more to go.
This administration seems intent that we not learn any lessons, that we remain as ignorant and uninformed as our president. But what it wants and what we choose are two different things.
Kirk’s up with a new post…!!!
http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..s/#respond
aliasofwestgate @ 131
Sounds pretty plausible to me. I like it. I’d often wondered why the Eastern traditions were multi- and the Western traditions tended to mono-truth. Neatly done.
Now if only we had some idea of why the Eastern tradition is group-first and the Western tradition is individual-first….
CTuttle @ 145
I keep getting a 404…
Maggie @ 133
Vote Republican!
Hmmm…the spinning wheel was just here, but it was a 404 error…try again?R. Manhammer @ 146
Interesting question, but it really doesn’t matter, because no living person is right. It is impossible to know, other than to realize your own awareness, be ye east or west.
LoudounLib @ 147
Wow, I got the Zed!!! Now, poof!!! 8-(
Beerfart Liberal @ 134
paste it, won’t load :/
R. Manhammer @ 143
It’s in the roots of their culture, R. That’s all i can say. Something that whenever i get around to actually exploring in depth? I’d love to do. Finding that time AND doing that exploration in such a nasty environment as here isn’t ideal though. I’ve always been heavily curious and curiousity and intellect are frowned on here in the US culture for nigh on 30 years. Pretty much as long, or longer than i’ve been alive! I really want to go to asia on a visit to experience it firsthand.
Folks – We’re working on the new thread. Will advise.
Should be up now.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 113
Group think mentality of the common populace with a double-digit IQ, sub-standard edumacation, and belief that even their drinking bud
Joe BlowDubya can run the government. Their belief system consists of Ed McMahon knocking on their door with the Publisher’s House Prize, $$$millions are a lottery ticket away, Dubya gives a sh*t about them and their kids and that he’ll show up at their door with Jesus. Hell, they don’t want no stinkin liberal triple digit IQ prezinet who knows the names of other leaders in the world. Dubya never lets his drinking buds down or feeling as dumb as a mule. Dubya’s deliberate in his grammatical error ridden syntax. Dubya took their life savings and sold them Swampland in Jesusland. That’ll be one bad-ass hangover when they wakeup.R. Manhammer @ 130
Heh, they keep pushing me for OCS too, I told I would be passed over for Cpt. if I did!!! I didn’t cotton to their kiss-ass ways, and, I saw it firsthand from Co. level to DTOC level operations…!!! 8-)
gg humour
Beerfart Liberal @ 143
I would call that your Shock & Awe moment
earlofhuntingdon @ 144
But…but…don’t you remember? Terrorism is a new thing! This is a new war! Nothing like this has ever happened before! All previous knowledge is obsolete and irrelevant!
(NOT!)
Bob in HI
PS Kipling is one of my favorite writers, although he does wander off into the gorse bushes from time to time.
aliasofwestgate @ 152
It is only “plausible” if it fits into your “story”…Reality just is.
Anyone think Al Pacino could play Rep. Pete Stark? Here’s a preview in “A Scent Of A Woman”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dH4p9BQ3V9o
bobschacht @ 138
The whole concept of “failed state” is rather new. I dug into it a little bit, and I’m finding it very interesting. While I think it has a great deal of promise in an internationalist context with a United Nations that isn’t powerless, I don’t think it does much for us at this point as there are no agreed upon international institutions to take appropriate actions, whatever they may be. Certainly there were none in 2002, I don’t think much has changed.
While almost certainly true, I don’t know that it’s an adequate rationale for invasion. A strict interpretation of the law would have to say that the invasion was illegal. There was no UN sanction for the invasion, and the US is a signatory of the UN charter, duly ratified, in fact.
If I knew what had been left out, I’m sure I could make a much better argument. However, we don’t know what has been left out and we won’t know unless and until a huge number of investigations are completed and the results made public.
Quite right, but I still have to wonder if a military invasion where we know for certain that hundreds, if not thousands, of innocent people will be killed and maimed is the correct response for a problem with a law enforcement effort.
I see it as a moral problem. How are we any different from the misguided souls who hijacked those airplanes and flew them into the WTC? Did we not kill hundreds of people who had absolutely nothing to do with either bin Laden or the government of Afghanistan?
I’m a military veteran, and these questions still bother me.
Exactly. I just want to experience to see how it fits into my theory and simply to just SEE more of the world. I’m quite sure some Anthropologists have actually studied this in depth at some point or another. *grins* Since i lack the time to track down those volumes at the moment i’ve only got my own half arsed theories. I know they’re that much. But another reason for me to explore the world too.
Ian Welsh @ 63
He handled the break up of the USSR poorly. He acted too slowly.
He could have prevented Saddam from invading Kuwait in the first place.
He ignored Yugoslavia. An aircraft carrier parked in the Adriatic instead of coming home in a rush after Gulf War I, could have prevented the all out civil war and tragedy.
He was as detached as his son is, and I always gave him low marks.
tw3k @ 148
Alas, that will NEVER happen!
Thank you for the comments and the review. I loved reading about Molly, Krugman, etc. Thank you for a fine article that reminds us we better stay alert and get moving…in a sense. Yes, scary times. But the truth said helps.
Im not sure where we get with the God/religion talk. I work with alot of people who make a great distinction about religion/spirituality. It is not a distinction I am very impressed with, but I am very impressed by the life of faith I witness in many people. Even the example of Mother Teresa, hard as her struggle was, is a shining example of one seeking to live her faith, and did. Faith in action has served many people and many goals.
Good night
CTuttle @ 155
Exactly. I found out that I would have been much happier and far more successful as a senior NCO than as a junior officer. Nevertheless, I had to try it. Yes, I’m one of those who *has* to try things. :-)
aliasofwestgate @ 162
I think that is really great! Think about this while you are planning your “trip”….you are always with your “self” no matter where you go…so when you go….”who’s” there with “you”??
*G*
You said
My reaction that day was: “I hope they don’t use this as an excuse to impose martial law.”
It’s small consolation that we were both right.
In the summer of 2000, I tried to get otherwise bright and engaged people to see what Bush really was, and was derided for overreacting.
Constant Reader @ 168
It is amazing what our intuition tells us…even when in shock…and awe.
bobschacht @ 158
I enjoy the barack room camaraderie of Kipling’s poems especially, but his sexism and triumphalism is past its sell-by date. Keeping with the Kipling and WWI references, I think Gavrilo Princip and his Serbian compatriots understood that they were on a suicide mission when they killed Archduke Franz Ferdinand. But “no one” could have dreamt that suicide fighters could start a war.
And the English and French experience with “terrorists” in Algeria, England, Ireland, Kenya, Malaysia, Viet Nam? Naw, our enemies are new, one of a kind, the graphic novel mega-enemies of civilization justifying that we vivisect our Constitution. Susan Sontag was right: the rhetoric from our political leadership is just crowd control. Whatever they’re doing and however well they’re doing it, they don’t want us to know. Time we found out, eh, Sen. Rockefeller and Ms. Pelosi?
R. Manhammer @ 82
I’m not much into religion in any formal sense, but I have seen my eternal self. So even though ‘religion’ combines history and tradition in a spiritual context it is a substitute for the awakening of Humankind’s higher abilities.
@ bobschacht
Molly Ivins appears to have been in Europe during September 2001. The first column that I can find post August 28, 2001, is one she penned on October 2, 2001. She was in favor of finding bin Laden and bringing him to account. By October 11, she was questioning our military action in Afghanistan. A link by which you can navigate forwards and backwards through her 2001 columns is: http://tinyurl.com/2crbvu
Wittgenstein, not Einstein, said:
What can be said at all can be said clearly, and what we cannot talk about we must pass over in silence.
and
Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.
Popper’s rejoinder:
But it is only here that speaking becomes worthwhile.
burnspbesq @ 94
We agnostics get it from both sides. Faithless chickenshits unwilling to follow our beliefs to their potentially illogical conclusion without substantiating evidence.
Ian,
Couldn’t say it better if I tried…
You GO!!!
Oops. That was Popper quoting Franz Urbach.
Good post, except for the truly bizarre statement of “basically excellent foreign policy.” Other commenters have briefly mentioned the Panama invasion, although they didn’t mention how Bush coddled Noriega until he flipped to the Sandinistas, or the hundreds of civilian deaths in Panama City’s El Chorillo neighborhood. Even more immoral was Bush’s continuation of Reagan’s Cold War evildoing in Nicaragua, El Salvador, Guatemala and Angola, which caused many thousands of innocent deaths.
For those who believe OBL is linked to 911… please cite the evidence linking him. You won’t find.
And he is not been accused by the FBI for that crime YET.
Attacking a nation without provocation is the doctrine of pre emption and I personally oppose it. It is clearly unlawful.
AQ remains largely a threat created by the US government.. or the magnitude of that threat. We don’t how many AQ there are. All we know is that they “chatter”.
We have never captured, and tried in a court of law anyone for 9.11… now 6 years on. Not a single person has been brought to trial and nor even charged.
911 was a traumatic event… one of the shock Naomi Klien writes about and there is certainly doubt about who was behind it and who benefited from 911.
Cui bono?
Mr. Gore did not loose his head after 9/11 either. He called Bush out for what he was doing, and of was mocked for it.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOL…..index.html
Thank You Philly Boy (sorry if I misspelled there) at 56,
Once Ian got into the meat of it, a generally strong and palatable article, but that throw-away line at the beginning about Bush Sr.’s foreign policy being “excellent” (again, I’m not going back to look for the quote) needs to be severely reprimanded and sent back to its room with no video games.
He remains the only American President since Eisenhower to put any pressure at all on the Israelis, but all he got out of them was to attend, and not totally sabotage, the Kissingerian negotiating process that ensued with Madrid, etc., validating his promise to the Arabs potentates to address the Palestinian greivances in exchange for their cooperation in Gulf War I. And of course in the end, he and Clinton then let the Israelis dominate the process just as American Imperialism had done since the 1950’s.
And having lots of neighboring Arab soldiers in the coalition did make the PR battle of selling the thing in the Arab and Muslim world, didn’t it?
But enough of what GHWB did right, it was all done “right” in the service of AMERICAN IMPERIALISM – a conscious and unconscious set of policies, and attitudes, that are literally destroying the world at this time.
Check my other writings on this matter, mostly on TPM and Washington Note, on TPM I use the name featherfamily.
I am looking for advice on setting up a website the advance the organizing process to end American Imperialism described there. We’ve got to make it happen.
“Say what you will about Bush Sr., but he wasn’t a wingnut.”
Ian, we part ways completely at this point, as you are obviously not well grounded in reality anymore . . .
Yer killin me.
Daddy was CIA, Daddy was Iran/Contra.
Daddy was so much evil wingnut (as was Prescott Daddy) . .
I shouldn’t have to google for linky’s to basic history to prove my point on something as fundamental as this, so I won’t . . and you should KNOW it exists and then you should be ashamed of having made that comment.
Yer killin me.
Ian, read the rest of the post, good stuff . . but that one line, hoss, geez . . what were you THINKING!!!
Excellent diary. They were and are great Americans. The notable thing about all of them (except Susan Sontag, who is dead) is that they come back again and again and do it. It makes me realize that the important thing is persistence.
I question whether 41’s foreign policy was “excellent”. Unbelievable diplomatic blundering lead to the first Gulf War, which, after he had his friends jam 43 down our throats, lead to the present debacle.
Outstanding post. Thanks.
larue @ 181
CIA isn’t wingnut. Evil, perhaps, but a very different brand of evil.
Failed states have existed for a long time and were called something else (lost the monopoly of violence/writ of the state is not followed). I do not think that Afghanistan, which had a pretty decent monopoly of violence over most of its area counted.
MikeR @ 173
I stand correct, my thanks.
Oh, dear. 2000 campaign… and what to think of Bush Jr… Maybe if you come from a state where the leading Dem Senator was killed in a bizaar, inconclusive plane crash, and an ex-wrestler gets elected governor proving to be a disaster and depleting the surplus, perhaps then you would have seen the Shrub for what he was. First, not much negative about him ever hit the light of day even though he had plenty of Texans mad at him. His apathetic views on all things of major importance but not the hot button issues… The focussed attention he went out of his way to emphasize in order to smear others yet couldn’t make a coherent paragrph about his own policy. Many of us were not fooled. To some of us, it was obvious he had a serious mental or alcohol-related deficit/disorder. But many looked at the superficial performance and equated the Shrub to a type of Johnny Carson/John Wayne (which is the image he went for calculatedly). And those people – thank heavens- now work hard to spread the trut about the Shrub. I’ll try not to judge the well-meaning ignorant of 2000. But I have trouble not being angry about it.
Just a quick comment on the atheism/religion aspect of this thread. First, full disclosure, I am an atheist. Now, the idea that atheism requires as much faith as religion is just silly. My approach, and I think the approach of many (not all, of course) atheists is that I am not out to disprove god. I can simply see no reason to even consider this concept of god. So I do not consider it. And that’s all there is to it. I try not to attack those who wish to consider this concept of god, but sometimes I fail at being a good human being and do just that. So I try to stay off the subject and/or keep my opinions to myself.
Just my 2cents. And probably EPU’d anyway.
“I want to talk about some people who met the test of 9/11 succesfully.”
Until this fake story about 9/11 is corrected, NOBODY met the test of 9/11 successfully.
I know. I am a nut. Or whatever name you want to call me, even though neither of us have ever seen a clear video of a plane hitting the pentagon. How many cameras does that building have? I know, I know, I am a nut. Rock on y’all. Enjoy your freedom.
With respect and kindness.
Thank you, Ian. Important reading…stimuli for contemplation.
ADM @ 190
I did see him for what he was — after Krugman had made me see through the spin — which was before the election.