After urging Congress to refrain from passing an Armenian genocide resolution because it might further provoke Turkey into invading Iraq and cutting off US supply lines, President Bush spent yesterday encouraging Congress to provoke China, while provoking Iran and Russia all on his own.
Our President made a big show of greeting the Dalai Lama and then attended a highly publicized ceremony in which His Holiness received the Congressional Gold Medal, one of the nation’s highest tributes for foreign dignitaries. Invited guests described the ceremony as a moving tribute to a man of peace.
Just prior to that, the President proclaimed that if anyone — probably meaning the Russians — wanted to avoid World War III, they should worry about Iran “having the knowledge necessary to make a nuclear weapon.” Like any diplomat, the President left it ambiguous whether Iran, the US, Russia or Israel would actually start WWIII once Iran acquired this knowledge.
The President’s wording is interesting. I thought America’s strategic concern was that Iran might actually acquire/develop nuclear weapons and the capacity to deliver them under conditions that suggested their likely use against its neighbors and/or our allies, including Israel. But I now see that my thinking was too subtle, especially in light of the President’s refusal yesterday to even discuss what he thinks the Israelis were bombing in Syria. Here’s what the President said at his press conference about WWIII (with video from C&L):
Q [Putin] said — well, at least the quote said that — and he also said, “He sees no evidence to suggest Iran wants to build a nuclear bomb.” Were you disappointed with that message? And does that indicate possibly that international pressure is not as great as you once thought against Iran abandoning its nuclear program?
THE PRESIDENT: I — as I said, I look forward to — if those are, in fact, his comments, I look forward to having him clarify those, because when I visited with him, he understands that it’s in the world’s interest to make sure that Iran does not have the capacity to make a nuclear weapon. And that’s why, on — in the first round at the U.N., he joined us, and second round, we joined together to send a message. I mean, if he wasn’t concerned about it, Bret, then why did we have such good progress at the United Nations in round one and round two?
And so I will visit with him about it. I have not yet been briefed yet by Condi or Bob Gates about, you know, their visit with Vladimir Putin.
Q But you definitively believe Iran wants to build a nuclear weapon?
THE PRESIDENT: I think so long — until they suspend and/or make it clear that they — that their statements aren’t real, yeah, I believe they want to have the capacity, the knowledge, in order to make a nuclear weapon. And I know it’s in the world’s interest to prevent them from doing so. I believe that the Iranian — if Iran had a nuclear weapon, it would be a dangerous threat to world peace.
But this — we got a leader in Iran who has announced that he wants to destroy Israel. So I’ve told people that if you’re interested in avoiding World War III, it seems like you ought to be interested in preventing them from have the knowledge necessary to make a nuclear weapon. I take the threat of Iran with a nuclear weapon very seriously. And we’ll continue to work with all nations about the seriousness of this threat. [my bold]
Apparently it is US policy not merely to prevent Iran from developing nuclear weapons, but also to prevent Iran from acquiring the “capacity, the knowledge” to develop nuclear weapons, irrespective of their actual intent to build or use a bomb.
Perhaps this is nothing new, and we shouldn’t rely too much on the precise wording George Bush uses when answering questions off the top of his head. Still, if we see this wording repeated, it may make it even more likely that Iran will cross (or has already crossed?) that ambiguous line in the sand that presumably justifies US military actions. I just wish Bush weren’t so careless with his words, because you never know what Dick Cheney might make of them.
Photo: Larry Downing/Reuters: President Bush’ press conference, Oct 17, 2007.
Related posts:
- John Kyl and Richard Perle: Nuclear Weapons Keep the World Safe, Except When People We Don’t Like Have Them
- Israel Gearing Up For Iran?
- Negotiation Works? Iran Nears Agreement on Nuclear Deal
- Second Iranian Nuclear Facility Discovered; Obama, Brown, Sarkozy Pledge Sanctions Unless IAEA is Allowed to Investigate
- World Economy Finding a Bottom Because the Keynesians are in China





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Zed!
Scarecrow, After he bombs Iran at least he can say he found the missing knowledge. Our President is a very sick man and it’s still a long ways until January 2009.
Iran should not be allowed to access wikipedia. – The First AWOL cokehead
Caw, caw! Good morning, Scarecrow.
I have an idea!
Let’s impeach Bush and Cheney so we don’t have to worry anymore what Cheney might make of George’s words!
Whitehouse to be on C-span at 8.30am edt this morning. Must see tv.
The giggling murderous hood ornament said, “he wants to destroy Israel,” with the same tone and look as when he said, “he tried to kill my dad.”
Evidently no one has ever explained to Bush that knowledge can be acquired by reading books. Good luck to him in preventing that. Perhaps he’ll take a page out of Alexandria’s history and bomb Iran’s libraries first.
To think this imbecile could make it to the president’s office. Serious mental problems going on in that mind. Cheney, too. You know these guys are druggies. The Dali Lama was laughable irony in this administration’s context. I’m actually surprised that Bush knew there WAS a Dali Lama… someone must have clued him in. I smell a stinky, phoney photo-op. Condi is the walking opposite of diplomacy. Every one outside the US thinks she’s incompetant and offensive. When, oh when, is the MSM going to report on these problems honestly? Where is the pie for Brett’s face?
Thanks Scarecrow!
Scarecrow – Bush’s words significantly lower the bar for an attack on Iran. As I wrote yesterday in my DKos diary, this is the third rational for going to war, with the first being an actual weapons program (no evidence, of course) and the second being supplying weapons to the Iraqi insurgency (which is predominantly Sunni in nature, while the Iranians are Shiia, so also a rational offered in the face of contradictory evidence).
Whether Bush attacks Iran is still up in the air. My bet is that he does, especially after considering the similarity between the Administration’s posturing and rhetoric prior to the Iraq invasion and what’s being proffered now on a daily basis.
Morning Scarecrow and firepups. Lots going on today.
“Still, if we see this wording repeated, it may make it even more likely that Iran will cross (or has already crossed?) that ambiguous line in the sand…”
Well, interesting. I’m sorta befuddled as well. I don’t know if it’s just another of Commander Guy’s many mush-mouth goof-ups….or if it portends a shift in policy.
His literal wording tends to remind me of “thought control” issues. “You are thinking about robbing a bank tomorrow, therefore we arrest you today!”
I do agree with Scarecrow that this is something to watch very closely in upcoming weeks.
Ghostman
Sheldon Whitehouse up on Washington Journal right now.
Good morning, America — or what’s left of it. I see the Senate intel leaders — Rockefeller — have now agreed with Mike McConnell on a FISA gutting bill — it reportedly provides retroactive immunity to the telecoms, et al.
And today is the big vote to override Bush’s veto of SCHIP.
Lots going on.
actually i don’t think this is anything new, scarecrow, at least the idea that u.s. policy is that acquiring information about how to manufacture nuclear weapons is a no-no.
not saying that it’s good policy — it’s especially idiotic in the age of the internet — but i believe this is standing u.s. policy.
meanwhile, someone had raised a point that the house resolution on the Armenian genocide was a neat bit of passive-aggressive maneuvering on pelosi’s part. the reasoning: she can’t seem to stop bush from getting the funding he wants for continued iraq atrocities, she can’t even slow down this drumbeat toward bombing iran. but if she can tick off the turks, it’s one more thing to occupy the bush administration before they can move ahead into iran.
i’d like to think she’s this machiavellian. but i doubt it.
egregious @ 13
Egr – and what, pray tell, is Whitehouse saying there?
Second day of Mukasey hearing will be to give Senators opportunity to continue asking questions, tho Whitehouse says the confirmation is smooth sailing. But also time for a panel of experts who will come in and advise about the future of the DoJ. People from former administrations who care greatly about the DoJ and want to help make things right.
“My name is Sheldon Whitehouse and I represent the United States of America” when he first became US Attorney.
Now skepticism about the integrity of the department. Need independent fair hardworking place. What is broken and what needs to be restored.
egregious @ 13
He’s on for 30 minutes.
Call with questions/comments for Whitehouse
Support Democrats (202) 737-0002
Support Pres. Bush (202) 737-0001
Support Others (202) 628-0205
dmg @ 15
I think ticking off the Turks to make a point is reckless
as we complain about corporate medea, and as we were hoping a democratic congress would do somehting about
sadly, the reverse;
front page, the new york times
Ghostman @ 12
Since the Iraq invasion, US policy has been “Preventative War” – attacking to stop something that may happen. It is s subtle shift in wording from “Preemptive” – attacking to stop something that will happen.
ApacheTrout @ 10
Link? Did you have prior Bush quotes – espcially when he’s reading from speech text — wrt to the threshold?
Good morning, friends.
I know there are people who say that Bush is not as dense as he seems but I have a hard time with that. It has become normal for him to spit out these kinds of things, clearly not fully understanding how disastrous they are. Again, “Yeehaw” IS his foreign policy, and the little green army guys on the sand table in the war room are winning in his rosy view.
Great, Whitehouse seems satisfied, its over.
Have cspan wired in the background for my upcoming listening pleasure, although I wish I could read along here all day.
It’s surely been linked, but suggest folks look at Glenn’s last couple of FISA posts, including his interview with EFF, to get a great look at what has happened there. Damning and true. And disgusting, I remember at one time having a soft spot for Rockefeller over his CYA letter. As with too many other Senators, those feelings are gone.
link to Glenn’s posts, read back for interview.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/
Someone pointed out somewhere that Bush’s ‘knowledge to make nuclear weapons’ line was similar to words he used about pre-war Iraq, perhaps after skepticism was being voiced about the actual evidence for WMD.
This might be scarier than it seems, too. I was just reading a passage in Robert Fisk’s “The Great War for Civilization,” about the precise moment he KNEW we were going into Iraq.
It’s when Bush said, in front of the UN, that ‘we have no quarrel with the Iraqi people.’
Here’s the passage:
http://www.signs-of-the-times……27110-Here We Go Again
Ghostman @ 12
A few weeks ago I heard a story on the BBC Worldservice that DHS is funding work on face recognition software that can spot hostility. They intend to have it ready to install in our airports by 2010. Apparently, they think pre-crime enforcement as in the movie Minority Report is a good idea. So, if you’re at the airport looking sufficiently hostile, they’ll arrest you for being a potential terrorist. I’m guessing they don’t fly much. Hostility is hardly in short supply among the flying public.
i’d expect there was always (among the crazies) the desire to prevent iran from having the “knowledge” necessary to build a nuclear weapon. because, as hard as it is to bomb facilities, it is much harded bomb knowledge – basically it would require identifying and killing a few hundred or thousand people.
bush just slipped by saying what he had been thinking.
perris @ 20
perris
read Ian Welsh’s diary on
Media Conglomerates Seek To Get While the Getting’s Good
Scarecrow, and anyone else, what do you think about Hastert’s resignation. Does it matter?
Elliott @ 19
i’m fuzzy on the details, and of course could be wrong. but i think the idea was that any extended bombing campaign of iran would likely need clearance to fly through turkish airspace.
fourmorewars @ 24
and he said essentially the same thing yesterday! made me cringe
zennurse @ 28
Lotsa them retiring; they don’t seem to be having as much fun, even though they’re still able to block anything useful from happening. Why would anyone want the job?
Scarecrow @ 31
Adult Day Care..that’s what they’ve got now.
Scarecrow @ 31
I believe the Rs are releasing their balast, in both chambers. They are really on the ropes right now, so they’re looking to the future, post-2009, and getting their ducks in a row. I offer Ensign still trying to push Craig out the door as evidence. Hastert is just another R sinking what’s left of the ship. Plus, as Scarecrow said, they’re not having as much fun as they once had…meaning, oversight and bloggers are bitches.
what happened with FISA? i just read at WAPO that they agreed to grant the telecoms immunity!
kdh22 @ 33
Yep, and many fewer opportunities for nastiness and moneymaking as well. Just not the same playground anymore…
Why, Bush only wants to remain RELEVANT.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/10/18/51942/234
If I’m remembering correctly from Risen’s book, the CIA gave the Iranians plans for building a bomb.
One thing the R team can do, is justify air attacks on Iran based upon Iran’s “knowledge” of nuclear weapons.
“Knowledge” is a hard thing to quantify. The international inspectors can never prove/disprove it. Bush can justify his position based upon “secret intel” which cannot be released to the public.
Is there an Iranian “Curveball” lurking out there somewhere? As I stated above, I think Scarecrow is right to sound an alert over this. We should all watch closely on this one.
Ghostman
The implied threat is that Bush himself will start WWIII. His logic is this:
1. Iran is working on A bombs (not proved)
2. Iran says it will destroy Israel with them (althought that is not what Iran has said)
3. We will retaliate with A bombs. (What Bush is saying).
Is this Bush’s version of Occams Razor? Anybody do statistics?
tryggth @ 37
even if that’s true… there is still, i expect, quite a bit of hands on knowledge required to take it from the theoretical to the practical.
notableabsence @ 34
Per Christy, Rockefeller, Chair of Senate Intelligence has agreed, so this gets clear of the Senate Intelligence Committee. The bill still needs to go to Judiciary, where Leahy, Durbin, Specter are still claiming they won’t buy a pig in a poke. We’ll see.
Ghostman @ 38
But it’s that Quest for Knowledge that Bush is concerned with.
itwasntme @ 39
here’s my translation:
1. we’re in charge
2. iran isn’t recognizing our authority to order the world’s events to our liking
3. iran appears to be persuing strategies to give it independence from our will with: a) nuclear technology that could be used as a deterence and b) alliance with russia
4. if we can’t have iran, no one can… even if that means ww3
Toby Wollin @ 35
I look at the “quality” of those who have left or will leave and think, “they can’t even be very useful for campaign support to replace themselves in GOP positions.”
I’d like to think that this supports a larger Dem majority so the Congress has an improved chance of actually getting done the work we are voting for, but I remain skeptical based on the situation and leadership at hand.
Thanks for your responses, I’ve been reading for an hour, against all rules, but will check in later today.
Blessings to you all.
zen
Scarecrow @ 41
i think there is also a thirty day limit for the sjc to act.
Hi, Scarecrow. I ran into one of our vaunted, big-name journo-pundits the other day and challenged him on his and his colleagues’ way-too-credulous performance vis-s-vis this Administration. He quickly said “Oh, yes, I agree, we were too credulous in the run-up to the Iraq war.” But when I told him the traditional media are doing it again with Iran, he protested loudly that they weren’t. They are willfully obtuse.
And OT in case it wasn’t mentioned here before. From this morning’s WaPo:
“Engaged: Patrick Fitzgerald, 46, to Chicago teacher Jennifer Letzkus, 34. We noticed the Very Special Prosecutor in the Scooter Libby case first, and People magazine put him in its “Sexiest Man Alive” issue. Now we’ve learned he’s proposed to Letzkus, described as a former investment banker turned Head Start teacher and marathon runner (hard to compete with that résumé, ladies). First marriage for Fitz, second for her. Plans call for a small, private wedding, probably in the spring.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..02622.html
zennurse @ 44
Nameste, Zennurse…
Elliott @ 5
This seems to be the place to post a link to this You Tube video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIO-tCPSfHA
Maybe Bush is hearing the “I” word being mentioned in the hallways and is ramping up the fear factor.
just to second comments already made above… best coverage of fisa telco immunity i’ve found is, once again, glenn, with two posts: today and yesterday.
Scarecrow, hopefully Durbin and Leahy mean what they say.
I realize that your insertion of Specter there was just to make a funny. Don’t think it’s not appreciated.
fourmorewars @ 50
it may all depend on specter – unless you think difi is more likely vote against telco immunity?
Once again, The Democrats provide us with yet another Lucy and football moment on FISA…. let’s see if they yank it out again on SCHIP. I, for one, am very tired of calling and faxing and emailing and petitioning the deaf. Can’t we do something else to get their attention… like perhaps stopping the money flow? How about NOT ONE MORE DOLLAR for any Democrat until pressure is applied by the loyal concerned Dems, upon the Dem leadership.
Sorry- just angry as hell this morning and am looking for more substantive action.
If it depends on Specter, we’re FUCKING LOST. How old news IS it, that Graham, Hagel, Specter, Lugar will NEVER walk the walk?
In 1812, Jefferson condemned both the French and British governments for trying to “draw to themselves the power, the wealth and the resources of other nations.” Three years later, he called Napoleon “the wretch…who has been the author of more misery and suffering to the world, than any being who ever lived before him. After destroying the liberties of his country, he has exhausted all its resources, physical and moral, to indulge his own maniac ambition, his own tyrannical and overbearing spirit.”
“If there is one principle more deeply rooted in the mind of every American, it is that we should have nothing to do with conquest.” Thomas Jefferson
“To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.” Thomas Paine
Where could Iran get knowledge of nuclear technology? (Don’t say Physics books!) Oh, I remember. It was Henry Kissinger, Gerald Ford, and General Electric who gave Iran nuclear knowledge and technology.
zennurse @ 28
Naw, Hastert didn’t resign, he just put on a skirt, heels, and lipstick. Prefers to be called Madame Speaker
p.s. on fisa – congressman holt made an excellent statement from the house floor yesterday on the now delayed “restore act.” he outlined the major problem with the legislation and he also called his own leadership on what they did to undermine his efforts.
very unusual for a house floor statement. and if anyone wants to give it a look, here’s the 2 min youtube (ripped from the c-span webcast, not tv, with advice from tw3k).
The elephant in the room on this issue has always been the fact that Israel does not need a thing from the US in order to obliterate Iran. Nor have they ever evinced any shyness about preemptive action. Most Iranians have to know this and are dancing around an unknown trigger factor.
The longer all of the belligerant talk continues, the more likely that a system of alliances (ala pre-WWI) well develop which could ultimately bring on a cataclysm.
this guy wants world war 3 so he can get his bourbon soaked ass raptured up to the answering machine in the sky-
“Hi. This is Jesus. I”m not at home now in my father’s house but leave a message for me and as soon as I’m down off the cross we can start bombing iran.”
Someone should have asked Bush if anyone from his family would serve in the military during a WWIII.
pma @ 58
Jefferson condemned the imperialism of all the leading countries of Europe: “The will of the allies? There is no more moderation, forbearance, or even honesty in theirs, than in that of Bonaparte. They have proved that their object, like his, is plunder.”
RockPaperScizzors @ 54
Here, Here.
selise @ 57
Thanks for the link, Selise
Elliott @ 27
thanx for the link elliot
selise @ 57
thanks! I’m glad to see that — in a way it’s heartening that he spoke up but so disheartening that he had to.
btw twas worth watching Whitehouse on WJ this morning.
When will someone FINALLY wake up and move “w” to the corner with a bowl of three-day old oatmeal? He and his lunatic fringe followers are going to drag this country into another war and there is very little, it seems, we can do about it!
If Cheeeney needed anymore justification…he’d make it up!
Okay, so last week Bush was attacking the Democrats for: Angering Turkey. (’Cuz y’know, they’re our allies in the War on Terra and all that, and bringing up their killing a million or so Armenians nine decades ago to avoid partitionng their land is bad form, y’know.)
This week, Bush goes and: Angers Turkey.
Oh, and now he’s angering China as well. And China holds our financial health by the throat.
Wow selise, that is a must see video about Holt and FISA. Thanks for bringing it to us.
Frank33 @ 55
Yep. And if we had any true print or television journalists left in the US, this would be splashed all over the place this morning.
Alas, silence.
Elliott @ 65
yeah. i’m always impressed with whitehouse – even when i don’t agree (which isn’t often).
p.s. now that i *think* i’ve figured out c-span’s new archive and i’ve got my rube goldberg setup wired, i should be able to easily and pretty quickly make youtube clips from most anything you’ve seen on c-span. it won’t be as good as having a high quality source, but i’m happy to take requests.
so, we gave Iran the nuclear technology knowledge? Isn’t that just like Rumsfeld giving Saddam the WMD?
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 59
How surprised will he be when he’s sent to hell.
Chimpy really just wants to create a peeance freeance Iran, that’s all.
egregious @ 68
you are most welcome! i didn’t want to be the only one who saw it…. better yet, dan from politics.tv may have a better clip to post this morning (he thinks he has the video source from yesterday morning).
Frank33 @ 55
Nobel Peace Prize winner, Henry Kissinger.
american weapons and explosives have been found in iraq.
Our government has been taken over by belligerent asswipes and weak-kneed chowderheads.
Restart the Apocalypse Clock at 5 to midnight.
-GSD
selise @ 70
Great! There’ve been a number of times I wish I could capture what I just heard watching CSPAN because it seemed so important and I wanted to share it here.
selise @ 74
Sounds like they burned him. Holt said he supported the current FISA bill because the leadership assured him it could be fixed on the floor, and now they won’t allow the fix. What can we do?
A*P*C has nothing whatsoever to do with the ‘end times president’ thinkun’ bout’ world war 3.
nah.
nuthin!
OldCoastie @ 71
DING DING DING! We have a winner!
By the way: Remember the UK court ruling RE: Gore’s film that the righties keep trumpeting? The original complaint that led to the ruling was made by — ta dah! — a filthy-rich and rabidly-anti-environment Scottish quarrying magnate, Stewart Dimmock!
egregious @ 79
Ironically, the Republicans wound up helping us out here: Eric Cantor attached a poison-pill amendment which caused the Dems to pull the bill and reset the vote for next week.
more OT – today at 2 pm, Maher Arar will be testifying (via video link) before a joint hearing of the House Foreign Affairs and House Judiciary Committees.
i hope it will be webcast somewhere… c-span3 may still be on the sjc hearing continuation!
Elliott @ 19
Bush is ticking them off for far less of a reason — and this is AFTER he got done chiding the Dems for (you guessed it!) ticking off Turkey.
WARNING: IMO Bush’s inflammatory rhetoric yesterday wrt Iran and WWIII is a diversionary tactic.
Phoenix Woman @ 82
Help me out. If no new FISA bill is passed, we go back to the original passed decades ago?
OT, interesting quote that the Hacktacular one chose from Valerie Plame’s book
“After reading a Washington Post editorial criticizing her husband, Plame writes that she ’suddenly understood what it must have felt like to live in the Soviet Union and have only the state propaganda entity, Pravda, as the source of news about the world.’ ”
Phoenix Woman @ 82
The Republicans only threatened to attach the poison pill to a motion to recommit, which hadn’t been introduced because they hadn’t reached that stage yet. Unable to impose discipline on its members to vote against the motion to recommit, the Dem leadership pulled the bill from the floor. All it takes is a “threat” — Republicans don’t have to actually do anything anymore to get their way.
This pre-emptive attack on Iran has been in the making for a very long time. http://www.newamericancentury.org/
Reuel Marc Gerecht, Cheney, James Woolsey Micheal Ledeen, John Bolton etc have been all over the MSM repeating their unsubstantiated claims about Iran and the majority of times those claims went unchallenged by the MSM. When John Bolton was on Neil Conan’s Talk of the Nation he repeated these unsubstantiated claims over and over and Neil Conan did not ask him once “where’s the evidence”?
Listen for yourself
http://www.npr.org/templates/s…..Id=9942906
Hell several years ago at the A*P*C conference organizers set up a Hollywood style replica of Iran’s “supposed” Nuclear weapons facility. Ariel Sharon and Richard Perle pushed hard at this conference for a pre-emptive strike on Iran. During the last four years on A*P*C’s website the “take action” section has persistently encouraged members to contact their Reps and push them to take military action on Iran.
If and when the A*P*C /Rosen/Franklin/ Weisman trial takes place the American people may realize that A*P*C officials were “allegedly” passing classified intelligence having to do with Iran onto Israeli officials.
Read the indictment
http://www.globalsecurity.org/…..ug2005.htm
At the same time the “cakewalk in Iraq” zealots have been pushing for a pre-emptive attack on Iran, the director of the Interantional Atomic Energy Agency has been telling us (when the MSM covers what El Bardei has to say) that Iran poses “no imminent threat” and that there is “no hard evidence” to back up these claims.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/sto…..636644.htm
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/t…..716061.ece
Call your Reps and let them know “NO NO NO PRE-EMPTIVE STRIKE ON IRAN”
“You’re probably aware that General Clark has been working tirelessly to persuade the administration to stop all the saber rattling and instead pursue all possible peaceful means to resolve the situation. At the same time, he has tried his best to make certain that the Iranian government understands that they too need to step back from the brink.”
SIGN THE PETITION CALL YOUR REPS…NO PRE-EMPTIVE STRIKE ON IRAN…TALK TALK TALK WITH IRAN
http://www.stopiranwar.com/
kdh22 @ 85
To divert us from what? A planned attack on the polar ice caps?
Sorry, I’m a little grumpy today. Pay no attention to the scarecrow.
Phoenix Woman @ 84
I wouldn’t be uncomfortable with this if I thought these people knew what they were doing!
And PW your point on China is well taken, they do have us by the throat.
Elliott @ 78
just make a careful note of the time (for live broadcasts), and let me know.
egregious @ 79
i don’t really know. as scarecrow argued yesterday, it may be better to let the whole thing die… but if there’s going to be a bill, at least we can lobby for the one that holt wrote (with other members of the intelligence committee and in consultation with the aclu).
Phoenix Woman @ 82
yeah, unless we get a worse bill from the senate. i really don’t know what the house leadership is thinking… i wish they would be more open and honest with us.
But why would the repubs want to kill this FISA bill? I know it didn’t include Telecom immunity. But other than that, why would they want it dead?
solai @ 86
The August abomination that gutted FISA has a six months sunset; it expires in February. Right now, letting that expire and doing nothing more is my first choice, notwithstanding the confusion over foreign-to-foreign communications.
Elliott @ 90
Ace Sec’y of State Condi will surely handle all these international issues well, right?
Elliott @ 90
No, they have us by Bush’s codpiece.
selise @ 57
Yes, thanks, selise. I guess I’m going to have to control my kneejerk reaction to the name Rush.
solai @ 92
but according to raw story, the seante caved and telecoms WILL get imunity
Prairie Sunshine @ 95
thanks for making me laugh!
dakine01 @ 87
Priceless. That will be Fred Hiatt’s epithet.
From WaPo today:
The draft Senate bill has the support of the intelligence committee’s chairman, John D. Rockefeller IV (D-W.Va.), and Bush’s director of national intelligence, Mike McConnell. It will include full immunity for those companies that can demonstrate to a court that they acted pursuant to a legal directive in helping the government with surveillance in the United States.
Such a demonstration, which the bill says could be made in secret, would wipe out a series of pending lawsuits alleging violations of privacy rights by telecommunications companies that provided telephone records, summaries of e-mail traffic and other information to the government after Sept. 11, 2001, without receiving court warrants. Bush had repeatedly threatened to veto any legislation that lacked this provision.
WaPo
A question for Bush: With a 24% approval rating, have you spent all of that political capital you claimed to have?
china has a long mythology involving dragons.
they know having a dragon by the throat gripping nuclear bombs by the thousands in seized up talons isn’t a great position to be in-
I think the dems wanted to destroy our alliance with the turks so that it would make war with Iran less likely. I think they were trying to take a tool for the administration and make an attack more difficult and less intelligent. However, they were foiled again.
The Diane Rehm show today. I think Diane is the best thing going on NPR.
http://wamu.org/programs/dr/
10:00 Medical Care for Soldiers and Veterans
An update on the ongoing care and benefit challenges faced by wounded soldiers,veterans, and their families.
Guests
Anne Hull, reporter, “The Washington Post”
Dana Priest, intelligence correspondent for “The Washington Post” and author of “The Mission: Waging War and Keeping Peace with America’s Military”
Listen to this segment
* A More Perfect Constitution: 23 Proposals to Revitalize Our Constitution and Make America a Fairer Country
A More Perfect Constitution: 23 Proposals to Revitalize Our Constitution and Make America a Fairer Country
11:00 Larry Sabato: “A More Perfect Constitution” (Walker)
For more than 30 years, professor and political scientist Larry Sabato has been examining the workings of the U.S. Constitution – in the classroom, in the court room, on the campaign trail, and at the ballot box. He talks with Diane about why the Constitution is in need of updating and offers 23 specific proposals to end the political dysfunction in America today.
Guests
Larry Sabato, founder and director of the Center for Politics at the University of Virginia and author of some 20 books.
Another OT, From the Boston Globe Clear Channel doing some union busting in Boston.
Was there a problem with the NPR, PNAC, ABC, Indictment, or stop a war with Iran petition links? Not sure why that comment is taking so long?
Scarecrow @ 89
(((scarecrow)))
i’m sorry if you caught my grumpies – i had them yesterday.
Thanks for the info. My assumptions were correct, thus, I, too, am hoping no new FISA bill gets passed. Especially since the ACLU says that foreign-to-foreign intercepts are okay (even if channelled through US). But, I still don’t see why the repubs were so intent on killing it. Just so they could say that the dems were soft on terrorists? Hoping to have telecom immunity included?
Steve-AR @ 101
The keyword being legal directive. If they acted pursuant to an illegal directive, seems to me, but IANAL, their defense fails.
I wake up to hear Fitz is engaged ?
Congratulations and much happiness to him !
Scarecrow @ 90
What would I do with my mornings if I paid no attention to you Scarecrow? :)
In answer to your question: to divert us from SCHIP, FISA, Mukasey, etc. To divert us from anything and everything else, but him and his feigned craziness. We’re the anti-war people. In his mind, all he has to do is mention the word war and we freak out. (and he’s right, BTW) That’s his job as a lame duck, to provide cover for all of the entities that stood by him for the last eight years…that and to veto anything that comes close to giving in to the other side. JMHO.
And, the his veto is ultra-powerful, moreso than many other lame ducks because the Ds don’t have a veto-proof majority. Damn! That’s what ticks me off. He wouldn’t be as smug as he is if he didn’t have the #s that he has in both chambers.
Muzzy @ 111
Oh, Chris Matthews will be so disappointed.
Scarecrow @ 14
Per Glenn Greenwald: http://www.salon.com/opinion/g…..index.html
So we have the best government money can buy. And one of the key brokers is Hillary Clinton’s advisor, Jamie Gorelick.
Perhaps on a different planet where the ideas and knowledge of science and how to apply it to weaponry were based on only some having the ability to do advanced science,math and figure out the atomic process George Bush could in fact control science and how science brings weapons about.
Well…this may come as a big setback to the Americans but since 1945 it has been possible for several countries/populations to replicate what the Americans did during the early 1940’s.
It is pretty clear the Americans think they can/desire to preserve Israels current ME atomic weapons unilateral setup. But does this not promote more ME risks of all out warmongering rather than less?
If this American position should spiral into killing millions of others in Middle East someone like George W. Bush likely is the guy to go there and do it. He seems inclined to such reckless,LasVegas roulette gambits.
If the Americans were as active in removing Israels pile of atomic weapons as the Americans are active in holding Iran to this double standard hipocrisy over atomic weapons then perhaps the Americans would have some ethical,moral or political credibility with which to confront Iran. The hipocrisy here is truly astounding however.
The Americans are not excercising credible standards with this blatant,uneven policy of letting Israel do as it pleases and breaking several international conventions doing so but then leveling all this bellicose laced threatening at Iran.
Do the Americans really expect the Iranians to just “give up and give in” to American Middle East hegemony desires and policy goals?
Do the Americans really think Iran is going to knuckle under to this American premise of tilt and slant for Israel and blatant illegal invade and subjugation of other ME countries and peoples?
Iran surely must know that the Americans are intimidated by atomic weapons.(see Pakistan and North Korea)
So what does Iran need to stop American ME ideas of pushing Iran around or attacking Iran,killing lots of innocent Iranians so the Americans and the western energy interests they are fronting can exploit West Asia’s petroleum?
Americans are indeed delusional to think that 5% of the planets population(Americans) should be using around 25% of planets petroleum energy day in and day out. Just how many millions do the Americans plan to kill or make suffer or force into being refugees on/for this pathetic premise?
George Bush has surely demonstrated that he is reckless with American blood and treasure and has equally shown the worst of 19th and 20th century colonialism traits and stupidity.
George W. Bush has fully proved he is very reckless,heedless,ignorant and arrogant.
Will he start WW3?
Based on his record and his demonstrated lack of knowledge,wisdom or willingness to spare humans from being killed or getting killed due to his stupidity what would the answer be?
Forget about George,Dick and the GOPER warmongers though for a moment.
Where is Hillary Clinton?
Or where are the WashDC Democrats?
Why are Hillary and the WashDC DEMS allowed to get away with this “support us because we are not quite as bad as George,Dick and the GOPERs but we still want to do what those nuts want” line?
Where is “front runner” Hillary Clintons courage to do what is right?
To stand up to Israel and AIPAC?
To stop these American Militarism sourced and based “Petro Wars”?
Hillary clearly is compromised by those who she is taking money from and by going with this truly insane American ME position of backing Israel regardless of Israeli crazed and flawed behaviour such as—
> Letting Israel expunge Arab Palestine and the Arab Palestinians.
> Attacking others in ME on whim or ginned up warmongering.
> Not demanding/forcing Israel to abide with international atomic weaponry protocols.
Or Hillarys equally dubious takes on Americans being the “residing/presiding colonial power” in Iraq or bellicose notions towards Iran.
Who is fooling who here?
The stench of American hipocrisy overwhelms.
selise @ 107
Speaking of contagions, I was watching this story about how some 19,000 people have died from this drug-resistant bacteria sweeping through hospitals, and now locker rooms. there are probably dozens of other stories about how x, y, and z are killing people like flies — but we’re not focused on them.
We’re worried about what OBL might say if he got my phone number. He’d probably say, “Oops; sorry. Wrong number.”
What a spectacular set of misplaced priorities.
RockPaperScizzors @ 61
But, yeah. That Jefferson was a smart dude.
My sense is that as democracy slips a way bit by bit by the clueless dems and the selfish republicans the public is either losing hope or becoming more disenchanted with the entire system.
But I think it will take a few “shocks” to use Naomi Klien’s term to wake them up. The question for me is whether the right will seize the opportunities in the wake of the shock or if the progressives will organize and do something.
Fascism will not come as a right wing coup, but as a slow almost invisible tightening of the noose on democracy.
Progressives seem to represent voices that no one is listening to these days… except each other and certainly those with power don’t seem to accept progressive memes for our nation or the world.
It’s depressing.
lhp has the next civics lesson on government accountability. Please open your books to the next thread.
IRT telecom immunity, how is this being included in the Senate bill, given the Spector and Leahy statement the other day? Do we have NO power to keep these things out of bills?
Mod I sent in a comment with links about Iran about 20 minutes ago. Did you get it?
Scarecrow @ 116
amen, scarecrow.
Scarecrow,
Don’t worry about China. This histrionic chorus is practically mandatory from them. The Dalai Lama visits everywhere all the time and they know it. And the press about what the Dalai Lama said v. what Mainland said he said is dishonest. DL did not ask for secession. And yet they say he did. DL did not ask for independance. Pointededly. And Beijing lied press lied about that.
Honestly I expect this visit to do more good than not, because Chimpy seemed real tamed about China in that event, as did others and I expect DL had something to do with that.
selise @ 122
DITTO
Great first paragraph, Scarecrow!
With bush’s balls now squarely in the bench vise, the Turks have decided to have a crank on the handle, themselves. :o)
So; we get junior wielding the genocide whitewash brush to try to placate them, at the same time he’s telling Russia and China to fuck off and to stop dissing Operation Endless Shitmire.
What a statesman!
This is one more example of how desperate bush is. The Turks may be content with a bit of saber rattling of their own, and then sit back to see if the Kurds will actually yank on the PKK’s chain, bush can’t count on that.
In a moment of fiendish irony, Ankara has proposed that there be joint operations IN IRAQ between the U.S. military, the Iraqi government forces (Minus the Peshmerga? :o)), and their own forces, to roust the guerrillas away from the border.
THAT would be something to see, except, I don’t think it will happen. The Kurds still have a large say in this matter, and they’re betting that the last thing bush wants to see is Turkish troops killing Kurds in Iraq. If THAT plate comes crashing down, it might take the whole shittaree with it. It’s all hanging by a thread, anyway.
Instead, I expect that, figuratively speaking Condi will spend some MORE time under Recep Erdogan’s desk, and the rent for Incirlik will take a hefty increase, and the Turkish units will push their tank throttles back to “idle”, and we will have a new status quo, for a bit.
But there is this; if the Turks are doing this now, think of how tempting it will be to them to REALLY turn that vise handle in the heat of our election campaign.
Kathleen @ 121
i think the mods already released it – if it’s the one @89.
you just used too many links, it tripped the filters (i forget all the time and do that too).
Prairie Sunshine @ 110
A “legal directive” could be nothing more than a phone call from some deputy AG. No court order; no written opinion from the AG. Just a phone call saying “no problem.”
Kansas Sen. Sam Brownback on Friday will end his bid for the Republican presidential nomination, the AP reports.
mui @ 122
I wasn’t clear; I have no problem with the public ceremony for the Dalai Lama. Long overdue.
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 103
“I have three treasures which I hold and keep. The first is mercy. For from mercy comes courage. The second is frugality. From which comes generosity to others. The third is humility. For from it comes leadership.”
KCC: “Strange treasures. How shall I keep them?”
Poe: “Keep them in your deeds, Grasshopper”.–KF*
BTW, I wish someone would ask the democratic candidates what THEY think of all this.
I’ve been watching politics a long time, and I’ve never seen a campaign in which so many “moderators” know which questions not to ask.
The man to read on Iran. Flynt Leverett (middle east analyst who left the Bush administration due to their policies having to do with Iran and Iraq).
http://www.cfr.org/publication/10326/
http://www.brookings.edu/opini…..erett.aspx
http://www.newamerica.net/pres…..n_and_iraq
If anything sitting for hours with the Dalai Lama the Chimpnit, probably thought he would come up with something anti-China, perhaps instead he got real-schooled, since IMHO DL is an old hand at keeping factions ready to duel each other to the death, at peace. (The tibetans are not as easy as as they appear in PR.)
Kathleen @ 132
The Council on Foreign Relations is the enemy. They helped start and maintain the Occupation/Genocide of Iraq. They also support and promote “globalism” which is essentially cheap products produced by slave labor. At the same time, Labor Unions are busted and US jobs are lost.
Scarecrow, I have no problem with the ceremony, either, but we both know that it was for two reasons:
It was a slap in the face to China.
And, it was bush demonstrating his “humanitarian” side, as his war in which upwards of a million people have died shows not the slightest sign of abating.
His schmoozing with the Dalai Lama had jackshit to do with any REAL concern for Tibet.
If bush could sell the Tibetans to China for deportation to work their rice fields, in exchange for them to put some real pressure on Iran to make nice with him, he’d do it in a heartbeat.
But, it’s too late for that, and as has been well-noted on here, the Chinese, too, know where the bench vise handle is. :o)
Frank33 @ 134
Hmmmmm. I keep getting mixed up. So:
— Globalism is good because it promotes corporate profits.
— Internationalism is bad because it promotes peace.
Right?
Tanbark @ 135
Definitely meant to be a slap in the face of China. But I doubt it had the lasting resounding effect that Chimpnit anticipated. A demonstration of completely sophomoric politics IMHO.
The DellNewsPage has a headline today:
“Bush Warns Turks on Iraq”
What kind of warning is he giving them…?
“If you guys keep squeezing the bush family jewels, I’ll pull us out of Incirlik airbase, the base from which much of the air-support for Iraq comes,and from which most of the re-supplying for our troops in the north of Iraq takes place.”
I bet they just shit their pants.
Seems I recall something about how the White House put Iraqi schematics for building a nuclear bomb written in Arabic right on the Internet for translation. Certainly these plans may have been old school….given that they were turned over by Iraq during the inspections after Gulf War I. Burt certainly wouldn’t that qualify as “having the knowledge” of knowing how to make a nuke..supplied of course by the White House, at the behest of the moonbat extremists in the Republiacan Party.
As I remember it was Senator Hoekstra and Roberts that insisted that these Iraqi documents be placed on the Internet so that “experts in Arabic” could translate them. I would suspect that many Iranians can read Arabic…after all it’s the language of the Koran!
So here we have Bush saying Iran can’t have exactly what they held out right under their noses! Certainly Iran would have been interested in perusing these documents since it would contain a lot of the Saddams regimes intelligence on IRAN…including informants, information about Iranian military capabilities, etc. Iran would have wanted to use counter-intelligence methods to deal with these.
But the White House itself gave them these schematic designs for nukes!
“A demonstration of completely sophomoric politics.”
Mui, it certainly was that. :o)
But then, when has this little SCOTUS-appointed cipher shown us anything else?
Frank33 @ 134
Banks are the enemy. Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1816:“I sincerely believe … that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies, and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity under the name of funding is but swindling futurity on a large scale.”
“A power has risen up in the government greater than the people themselves, consisting of many and various powerful interest, combined in one mass; and held together by the cohesive power of the vast surplus in banks.” John C. Calhoun,
Speech 5/27/1836
Tanbark @ 140
You call him a cipher?
Scarecrow @ 14
Which means that Eric Coulter’s (erm, Cantor’s) amendment scuttling the House FISA bill until next week is a GOOD thing — because now we have another week to melt their phones and fax lines.
And today is the big vote to override Bush’s veto of SCHIP.
Lots going on.
America (I didn’t vote for bush but I am a citizen) is getting what it deserves.
Everyone voted for this guy and now those same people don’t say anything because they don’t want to lose the HOUSE and POOL combo with the two car Garages.
That’s all it is. Enuff people haven’t suffered yet. Only then will they take it to the street.
Turkish video. Somehow it speaks for itself.
Phoenix Woman @ 143
We know how to have fun.
egregious @ 146
You mean we got a stay of execution?
There are US high school and college students with enough knowledge to make nuclear weapons. Some of them may have most of the tools needed, if not the materials. Has anyone told Shrub?
solai @ 93
Because they want to use it to paint the Dems as Soft On Terra, of course. (The real reason: Bags and bags of telco money, more of which — aside from Rockefeller and a few other Dems — flows to the GOP side of the aisle.)
Scarecrow @ 14
We should be hammering Senator Rockerfeller’s office, demanding “no retroactive immunity”
http://rockefeller.senate.gov/services/email.cf
Washington, D.C.
531 Hart Senate Office Building
20510
(202) 224-6472
What is truly stunning is that the press appears unaware or uninterested in the fact that bush’s statement is a direct repudiation of the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, which grants every signatory the RIGHT to enrich uranium. To deny Iran the right to enrich uranium for peaceful purposes is an abrogation of the NPT, but it is the clear import of bush’s words. Stunning.
OpynMynd @ 144
Actually, people are suffering — but the media that they’re most likely to see/hear (namely, drive-time radio and the evening TV news, with whatever trash graces their ISPs’ web portals) is either telling them that everything’s just fine and that we’re in a Bush Boom, or that if they are suffering it’s because of those durn tax-and-spend liberal Democrats.
We’re seeing a switch of donations from GOP to Dems this year, as SOME businessfolk are starting to fight their decades-old pro-Republican programming and realize that the GOP’s policies are eating into their profit margins (for instance: the GOP opposition to single-payer health care is seriously hurting American carmakers, to name one big US industry). How long that lasts is anyone’s guess — my fear is that come 2008, the programming will kick in again and they’ll resume donating to Republicans. But what if they don’t?
Kathleen @ 150
Sounds like a plan!
kdh22 @ 33
Domenici getting out because of senility…but with Heather Wilson offering up her House seat in order to try to fill his shoes. Interesting side-light to that is that another Republican Representative is giving up his seat to run against HER!
So they now have three vacant seats instead of one! Seems Pugs are turning on one another and leaving themselves vulnerable at all turns. Sort of makes you wonder just what is going on in that party! Doesn’t seem like the RNCC has any sort of viable strategy even to hold seats in Republican districts.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/cq/200…..dqBrz4R9AF
itwasntme @ 39
Agree with this, except the “retaliation” part, but Bush asserted that if Iran even GETS THE KNOWLEDGE to make a nuclear weapon it would trigger WWIII !!!! That is hardly retaliation. It’s EXTREME PRE-EMPTION.
And a World War is not merely a conflict between two nations. In fact it isn’t a conflict between a large “coalition” and a single nation.
A WORLD WAR is one that involves many antagogists on both sides…that expands beyond a single theater of operations across the globe.
I’d like to know who, precisely, Bush thinks will line up on the side of Iran against the U.S.? Doesn’t he realize that a pre-emptive nuclear strike against Iran for such shabby rationales would be roundly condemned by the Global Community. I don’t think that the U.S would be flush with allies in such a conflict.
Some hypocritical Congressmen, “As we take this principled moral stand in defiance of the Chinese government, we must similarly be willing to speak out on the Armenian genocide,” said a statement issued by the six chief sponsors of the House resolution. “If we as a nation are to be a moral leader around the world, we must have the courage to recognize genocide whenever and wherever it occurs.”
OK, why don’t these moral leader clowns vote a resolution condemning the American invasion, occupation, and colonization of the Philippines in 1900?
An estimated one million people may have died as a result of American intervention. That is more than a tenth of the population at the time. That is more pertinent to America than the Armenian question.
Then also in the NY Times article there are “Jewish lawmakers” who are worried about the effect this could have on the security of Israel! They should be worried about the security of the U.S., not the security of Israel. They represent Americans, not Israelis. Where does their allegiance lie?
Any senator or representative that votes for retroactive immunity should be hounded from office at the end of their term.
No exceptions.
thomas c @ 151
such a good point
After reading a recent article about ‘dogwhistle politics’ and the Chimpster using code-words in some of his speeches; I’d think that WW3 crack is a threat aimed at Putin for his recent upping of support to Iran.
WW3 indeed… Who needs the Four Horsemen when you got Chimpy on a Segway?
Sachem @ 157
Hound them now, before the vote. NO RETROACTIVE IMMUNITY! Senator Rockefeller has not even completed Phase II of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence.(supposed to investigate Douglas Feith the Office of Special plans, the WHIG (White House Iraq group) and a few other groups involved with creating and dessiminating false pre-war intelligence.
I guess what John Dean said the other day here at FDL when he graced us with his knowledge and wisdom . Dean said that Senator Rockefeller is not very different from Republican Senator Pat Roberts who did everything that he could to delay, divert and water down the investigation of Pre-war intelligence. That was disspointing news
Come on Senator Rockefeller do your job!
Phoenix Woman @ 152
Great topic on your blog! I point that kinda garbage out all the time. Nice to see the screenshots as proof.
Deep in EPU territory now, but…
As far as knowledge of how to build a weapon goes, sorry Mr. Bush, but that train left the station in the mid-1960’s.
The hard part of building a weapon is not knowing how to build it. The hard part is actually building it.
Elliott @ 5
Crikey! I think he’s got it.
tryggth @ 37
We created al Qaeda. We trained al Qaeda. We pissed ‘em off by trying to force the oil & gas pipeline deal on ‘em in Afghanistan.
We installed Saddam Hussein. He tortured and killed Iraqis. That pissed ‘em off. We helped Kuwait and perhaps Saudi Arabia steal his oil. That pissed ‘em off. We kicked him out of Kuwait. We invaded (this time) and are still there after killing Saddam and a lot of other Iraqis. Then, to keep it going we had to arm them. Can’t have continual war without two sides. How would the war profits look if you only had one side fighting?
We installed the Shah in Iran. We pissed ‘em off. The Shah was brutal and added to it. Then, Bush & Co (the elder) helped Iran keep the hostages to get rid of Carter. We began to ‘assist’ them. Of course we had to give them the bomb plans. How else were they to build a bomb? And, of course they have to have a bomb if we’re to get to play the bongos on their heads while war profiteering.
You just can’t have a war without two sides. That’s crucial to understand. And without war there’s no war profits. Simple.
Unfortunately, his lack of even a little bit of knowledge won’t prevent him and the nitwits who love him from their self-appointed task of sparking WWIII to provide them the Armageddon they need to reach their rapture rubbish.
If these aren’t the worst people on the face of the earth, they’re in the class picture.
Steve-AR @ 101
“legal directive” — What would that include?
“summaries of e-mail” — Why only the summaries?
“after Sept. 11, 2001″ — Why not before?
What is the deal for pre-9/11 spying?
I wish these nitwits could at least agree on which WW they’re about to start for other people to die in. Newt was on WW4 or WW5 3-4 years ago for Christ Sake. These schmucks can’t even manage to agree on which lie they’re gonna stick with.
MarkH @
“after Sept. 11, 2001″ — Why not before?
What is the deal for pre-9/11 spying?
A Presidential Medal of Freedom.
bernarda @ 156
American Jews contribute a LOT of money to political campaigns. That’s a big part of what the fight is over.
It isn’t all about oil prices.
He’s flipping crazy!!! Somebody impeach the idiot before he does anything else to harm America.
He will already be remembered as the WORST President ever, even without starting WWIII.
Maybe this has already been said, but…
Bush meets with Dalai Lama, irritates China
US seeks tough sanctions on Iran; China votes no becuase they are irritated.
Bush declares ‘diplomacy has failed’ and attacks Iran.