As Christy and Siun explained the other day, and as Scarecrow explains today, the Republicans are using the worst sorts of lies to justify taking away your freedoms. Don't let them get away with it -- step up to the plate and swing for the fences. Here's what the ACLU's Liz Rose said in an e-mail yesterday:
We are down to the 11th hour on the FISA fix effort. The vote will be in the house tomorrow. We need your help on a last ditch effort to fix the House's flawed bill (the RESTORE Act). As it stands, the bill is unacceptable because it does not have individual warrants for Americans-- so if this passes as is, the government can collect your phone calls and emails without a real individual warrant.
The Democratic Majority can still change its own managers' amendment. Please, call House leadership and Members of the House Rules Committee tonight (or at the latest tomorrow morning) and ask them to put individual warrants for Amercans in the bill.
And, as always, please remind the offices that we do not want to let the bells off the hook -- we do not want telecom immunity.
The next step is to push the Senate....
Thanks,
Liz Rose
ACLU
And yes you can use this and yes you can quote me.
Here are your talking points for phone calls, courtesy of the ACLU:
1. Only pass a FISA modernization bill that has individualized warrants for people in the United States.
2. DO NOT to provide telecom companies with immunity for breaking the law.
3. Blanket or program “warrants” that allow the government to vacuum up the international telephone calls and emails of Americans aren’t really warrants at all, and they aren’t constitutional.
Do make some Senate calls on FISA today as well. You can find direct dial numbers for all Senators here, along with direct links to all of their web pages. The members of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, which is primarily responsible for this bill, are as follows:
*Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D-WV), Chairman — (202) 224-6472 FAX: (202) 224-7665
*Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) — (202) 224-3841 FAX: (202) 228-3954
*Sen. John Warner (R-VA) — (202) 224-2023 FAX: 202) 224-6295
*Sen. Ron Wyden (D-OR) — (202) 224-5244 FAX: N/A
*Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-NE) — (202) 224-4224 FAX: (202) 224-5213
*Sen. Evan Bayh (D-IN) — (202) 224-5623 FAX: (202) 228-1377
*Sen. Barbara Mikulski (D-MD) — (202) 224-4654 FAX: N/A
*Sen. Olympia Snowe (R-ME) — (202) 224-5344 FAX: (202) 224-1946
*Sen. Bill Nelson (D-FL) — (202) 224-5274 FAX: 202-228-2183
Sen. Richard Burr (R-NC) — (202) 224-3154 FAX: (202) 228-2981
Sen. Kitt Bond (R-MO), Vice-Chairman — (202) 224-5721 FAX: N/A
Sen. Saxby Chambliss (R-GA) — (202) 224-3521 FAX: 202-224-0103
Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-UT) — (202) 224-5251 FAX: (202) 224-6331
Sen. Russ Feingold (D-WI) — (202) 224-5323 FAX: (202) 224-2725
Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse (D-RI) — (202) 224-2921 FAX: 202-228-6362
The bolded Senators are the ones that need concentrated calls — the ones which are not highlighted are already on the right track or, unfortunately, likely hopeless on this issue. You can reach them toll free as well thanks to these numbers that katymine found:
1 (800) 828 - 0498
1 (800) 459 - 1887
1 (800) 614 - 2803
1 (866) 340 - 9281
1 (866) 338 - 1015
1 (877) 851 - 6437
Also, the Senate Judiciary Committee membership and contact information is as follows:
Arlen Specter - Pennsylvania - (202) 224-4254 Fax (202) 228-1229
Orrin G. Hatch - Utah - (202) 224-5251 Fax (202) 224-6331
Patrick J. Leahy (Chairman) - Vermont - (202) 224-4242 Fax (202) 224-3479
Charles E. Grassley - Iowa - (202) 224-3744 Fax (515) 288-5097
Edward M. Kennedy - Massachusetts - (202) 224-4543 Fax (202) 224-2417
Jon Kyl - Arizona - (202) 224-4521 Fax (202) 224-2207
Herbert Kohl - Wisconsin - (202) 224-5653 Fax (202) 224-9787
Jeff Sessions - Alabama - (202) 224-4124 Fax (202) 224-3149
Dianne Feinstein - California - (202) 224-3841 Fax (202) 228-3954
Lindsey Graham - South Carolina - (202) 224-5972 Fax (864) 250-4322
Russell D. Feingold - Wisconsin - (202) 224-5323 Fax (202) 224-2725
John Cornyn - Texas - (202) 224-2934 Fax (972) 239-2110
Charles E. Schumer - New York - (202) 224-6542 Fax (202) 228-3027
Sam Brownback - Kansas - (202) 224-6521 Fax (202) 228-1265
Richard J. Durbin - Illinois - (202) 224-2152 Fax (202) 228-0400
Tom Coburn - Oklahoma - (202) 224-5754 Fax (202) 224-6008
Benjamin Cardin — (202) 224-4524 Fax — 202-224-1651
Sheldon Whitehouse — (202) 224-2921 FAX — 202-228-6362
For a letter from the ACLU that explains, point by point, why the current House and Senate bills are bad, just click here for the PDF -- or follow me past the jump:
October 16, 2007
ACLU Opposes the RESTORE Act Because it Fails to Resolve
Constitutional Concerns Regarding the National Security Agency’s
Surveillance of Americans’ E-mails and Phone Calls
Dear Representative,
On behalf of the American Civil Liberties Union (“ACLU”),
America’s oldest and largest civil liberties union, its 53 affiliates and
hundreds of thousands of Members, we write to share our analysis of
H.R. 3773, the RESTORE Act. Because the RESTORE Act fails to resolve
numerous constitutional infirmities enacted in the Protect America Act, Pub.
L. 110-55 (2007), the ACLU opposes the RESTORE Act. The ACLU
further urges Members of the House of Representatives to insist that any
final legislation that is enacted to replace the Protect America Act bring
surveillance conducted under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of
1978 (“FISA”) in line with both the letter and the spirit of the Fourth
Amendment to the United States Constitution. In addition to its
constitutional infirmities, the RESTORE Act fails to adequately protect the
privacy of Americans’ communications.
While the RESTORE Act is better than the Protect America Act, the
RESTORE Act falls below a standard justifying Member support in several
key areas as discussed in detail below. First, the RESTORE Act legitimizes
mass warrants that are not directed at specific individuals in violation of the
Fourth Amendment to the constitution. Second, the RESTORE Act
explicitly permits the issuance of warrants without requiring the government
to describe with particularity the facility that is to be searched, in violation of
the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution. Third, while the RESTORE Act
does provide some role for the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court
(“FISC”) to review surveillance by the National Security Agency (“NSA”),
the Act fails to provide sufficient legal standards for the FISC to judge the
appropriateness, suitability, legality and constitutionality of the procedures
the NSA will use to undertake that surveillance and how it will handle the
communications acquired. Fourth, the RESTORE Act fails to require
specific procedures to ensure that the privacy of innocent Americans’ emails
and phone calls is protected by not demanding the sequestration and/or
destruction of inadvertently acquired communications of U.S. persons.
Fifth, the RESTORE Act creates a potentially enormous loophole that could
be exploited to allow the government to gather virtually all communications
– including those of U.S. citizens – without obtaining any warrant
whatsoever.
1) The RESTORE Act Enacts Unconstitutional Bucket Warrants
The RESTORE Act is deeply flawed in that it legitimizes
unconstitutional mass “warrants”, first permitted by passage of the Protect
America Act on August 5, 2007, which are not really warrants at all because
they are not directed at a particular individual. Called baskets, buckets or
blankets, the new warrants created by the Protect America Act, and
maintained in modified form by the RESTORE Act are most commonly
known as “program” or “general” warrants that violating the Fourth
Amendment to the United States Constitution. The Fourth Amendment
protects against unreasonable searches and seizures. The Amendment states
that:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses,
papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and
seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but
upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and
particularly describing the place to be searched, and the
persons or things to be seized.
Thus, the Fourth Amendment requires that before the government may
obtain a warrant for a search it must identify with particularity the person or
persons who are the target of the search. By authorizing the government to
obtain bucket warrants in § 3, the RESTORE Act fails to require that the
warrants sought satisfy this requirement. Thus, the RESTORE Act arguably
would permit the NSA to wiretap substantial numbers of unknown persons.
The likely consequence of this is that U.S. persons, living, working or
traveling abroad, will have their communications wrongly swept up into the
dragnet of communications obtained under any non-individualized bucket
warrants. This raises the specter that the NSA will pass along those
conversations and that the information wrongly obtained could be misused
even though the communications do not contain any foreign intelligence
information.
2) The RESTORE Act Explicitly Authorizes Warrants Without
Particularized Descriptions of the Places to be Searched
The RESTORE Act is likely unconstitutional in that it is directly in
opposition to the plain language requirement of the Fourth Amendment to
the Constitution that any oath or affirmation accompanying a request for a
warrant “particularly describe[e] the place to be searched.” Section 3 of the
RESTORE Act proposes amendments to FISA § 105B(c) to permit warrant
applications in a section entitled “Specific Place Not Required.” That
proposed section states that “[a]n application under subsection (a) [of the
RESTORE Act] is not required to identify the specific facilities, places,
premises, or property at which the acquisition of foreign intelligence
information will be targeted.” RESTORE Act, § 3. This language is in
direct conflict with the Constitution.
The impact of this unconstitutional grant of authority is that the NSA
is permitted to listen to and gather communications without identifying the
target phone numbers, e-mails or locations that will be tapped. When such
broad authority is granted, mistakes will surely follow and the NSA will
undoubtedly obtain communications from phone numbers and e-mails that
have no relationship to international terrorism or foreign relations. The
result that follows will be that innocent U.S. persons’ communications will
be scooped up because the NSA has not been forced to precisely target its
vast surveillance capabilities. As a result, the NSA will gather extraordinary
numbers of communications that are wholly irrelevant to NSA’s mission and
that drown the intelligence community in useless information.
Congress should strike this provision from the Act.
3) The RESTORE Act Fails to Provide the FISC Legal Standards
to Judge the Secret Acquisition Procedures
The court review provided by the RESTORE Act does not create a
mechanism in the form of statutory guidance so that the FISC can stand as
an independent check against government abuse of surveillance authority.
While the RESTORE Act takes important steps to reinvigorate the FISC as a
check on future executive branch abuse of FISA, the RESTORE Act does
not provide the FISC judges with specific legal standards for the FISC to
judge the appropriateness, suitability, legality and constitutionality of the
procedures the NSA will use to acquire, collect, warehouse, review, and
disseminate communications intercepted. Section 3(c) of the RESTORE Act
simply requires that the Director of National Intelligence and the Attorney
General will develop procedures in secret, and then, submit those procedures
to the FISC as part of the basket warrant application. But this review is
virtually meaningless because the RESTORE Act does not set forth criteria
to allow the FISC judges to compare those procedures with in order to judge
there lawfulness. The result is that judges will likely defer to the
government lawyers who are petitioning in secret for this authority. Further,
no third party is allowed to present and challenge the suitability, legality or
constitutionality of the secret procedures, thus judges will not be given a full
exposition of the potential pitfalls of the approach taken by the government.
The problems raised by this lack of statutory legal standards are
predictable: the privacy of innocent U.S. persons’ communications will be
violated. Although warrant targets are required to be people the government
reasonably believes to be overseas, it is a certainty that the communications
of U.S. persons will be inadvertently swept up in the broad surveillance
regime. Thus, the legality and constitutionality of the minimization
procedures, i.e., the procedures governing what the NSA must do when it
encounters a U.S. person as one party to a communication – must be
carefully scrutinized by the FISC. But, the RESTORE Act does not give the
FISC a meaningful role in reviewing the procedures the government will use
when it encounters a U.S. persons’ communications. Without specific
statutory guidance the FISC judges are left to their own devices to review
minimization procedures. The result is that Congress cannot have
confidence that the minimization procedures – even if deemed “reasonable”
by the FISC – will properly protect privacy. Worse still, the minimization
procedures are not, and have never been, made public. No one, save a few
Intelligence Committee members, know how well minimization works or
how it is actually implemented. Something so fundamental as whether the
government can listen to our phone calls or read our emails should not be
left to be decided in secret by a handful of people.
FISA, as amended, is largely silent as to statutory requirements
providing guidance or limitations for those minimization procedures. The
few provisions in FISA discussing minimization do not require that U.S.
persons’ information be destroyed – except in the narrow circumstance of
wiretapping an embassy, which absolutely does not apply to this program.
In the end, the RESTORE Act provides only a limited role for the
FISC. Essentially, the only role for the court is to negotiate secret rules that
do not even require that American information be destroyed, or ultimately
prevent American information from being used or disseminated.
Compounding the problem, the RESTORE Act does not provide explicit
authority for the FISC to modify the orders or the minimization procedures if
it finds a problem during the quarterly review mandated by the RESTORE
Act.
4) The RESTORE Act Fails to Require the Sequestration or
Destruction of Inadvertently Acquired U.S. Persons’
Communications
The RESTORE Act fails to mandate that when the communications
of U.S. persons are inadvertently intercepted that the NSA minimize in a
meaningful way that communication, either by requiring the NSA to
sequester or destroy that conversation. It is a certainty that the expanded
surveillance regime enacted in the Protect America Act and reduced in
scope, but left intact by the RESTORE Act, will lead to substantially more
“inadvertent intercepts” or “inadvertent overhears” by the NSA of U.S.
persons’ communications. Thus, the ACLU believes that Congress must
insist on a more robust regime forcing the NSA to properly protect the
privacy and constitutional rights of U.S. persons’ communications that are
wrongly gathered. The RESTORE Act does not respond meaningfully to
this eventuality. Instead, as with the Protect America Act, the NSA is
allowed to benefit from the windfall effect by keeping and reviewing any
U.S. communicants’ conversations it “accidentally” acquires while
“targeting” people reasonably believed to be overseas who may discuss
foreign intelligence information.
At a certain point, Congress must ask:
Given the huge quantum of U.S. persons’ communications that will
undoubtedly be obtained under this new scheme, is not the real target of the
Protect America Act and bucket warrants in fact the communications of U.S.
persons that the NSA could not have acquired prior to the passage of the
Protect America Act? If so, the RESTORE Act fails to resolve this
mistargeting of U.S. persons’ communications by eliminating the ability of
the NSA to use such windfall intercepts with impunity. Congress should
demand real minimization procedures for U.S. communications.
5) The RESTORE Act Creates a Potential Loophole that
Obviates the Protections Created by the Entire Act
Finally, the very first section of the RESTORE Act, creates a
potentially enormous loophole that could be exploited by an aggressive NSA
to obviate even the modest privacy protections that would be achieved
through passage of the RESTORE Act. The loophole in proposed § 105A(a)
relates to the proposed authority to allow the President to conduct
surveillance for gathering foreign intelligence that relates to the conduct of
foreign affairs, as defined in FISA § 101(e)(2)(B). The RESTORE Act
would potentially authorize interceptions of communications likely to yield
“foreign affairs” information without requiring the government to obtain a
warrant so long as the target is reasonably believed to be a non-US person
outside the United States, regardless of whether that person communicates
with U.S. persons in the United States. Proposed § 105A(b) regulates
electronic surveillance programs for foreign intelligence purposes defined
under FISA §§101(e)(1) and 101(e)(2)(A), but would not regulate
surveillance conducted to acquire foreign affairs communications as defined
in § 101(e)(2)(B). Indeed the applications under proposed § 105B would
require the Attorney General to certify that the basket surveillance requests
to the court were for §§ 101(e)(1) or 101(e)(2), thus, even should the
Attorney General wish to obtain a warrant for 101(e)(2)(B) surveillance he
would have no authority to do so.
Consequently, if proposed § 105A of the RESTORE Act were
enacted this means as long as the President says he is conducting
surveillance for purposes under 101(e)(2)(B) none of the bills other
protections kick in, and he can intercept all the communications of US
persons with no oversight from Congress or the FISC.
Summary and Conclusion: The RESTORE Act Perpetuates Several
Constitutional and Legal Infirmities First Created by the Protect
America Act
The RESTORE Act falls below standards meriting its support.
The Fourth Amendment has several requirements before a search or
seizure is constitutional -- that a judge is involved, that there is probable
cause, that the search or seizure is reasonable, and most important for this
discussion – the things searched or seized have to be stated with
particularity. The particularity requirement was written into the Fourth
Amendment due to past abuses by King George III, whereby the government
would issue blank warrants that allowed government officials wide
discretion to rifle through personal belongings or search people, without
particularized suspicion, to look for anything illegal. No description was
actually given of the illegal behavior that was being investigated, because
the government was on a fishing expedition. This abuse of power was no
less than one of the injustices that led to the American Revolution. Statutes
and even individual searches and seizures have since been held
unconstitutional in the past because they violate the particularity
requirement.
The Protect America Act and the RESTORE Act allow the
government to issue these broad program warrants that state neither the
targets of the search, nor the facilities that will be accessed. They do not
describe what is going to be seized, and eventually used, by the government.
They are virtually a blank check that require only that the surveillance be
directed at people abroad, which may very well be unconstitutional. The
RESTORE Act does not require individualized court orders for anything
collected under the new surveillance program. The program can collect any
communication as long as one leg of it is overseas, leaving open the distinct
possibility – and probability – that the other leg is here in the U.S. and is an
American. If Americans are swept in the new mass collection in this new
general, program warrant, there is no requirement that a court actually
review whether those communications are seized in compliance with the
Fourth Amendment. The RESTORE Act, as currently written, allows the
Attorney General to negotiate secret guidelines with the secret FISA court
about how to use US information, and whether to go back to the court for an
individualized warrant to access US communications. There is no
requirement in the RESTORE Act that individualized warrants be issued
before the government collects communications to which an American is a
party. If a US phone call or email is picked up in these general warrants --
not based on any suspicion of wrongdoing, or even based on a link to
terrorism -- they can be saved and used by the government without any court
review.
Attempts to find a procedure that gives the government flexibility
while respecting the constitutional requirement of particularity have been
rejected. It is perfectly reasonable to allow program warrants to collect calls
and emails among foreigners but Americans deserve, and the constitution
requires, that their communications be treated differently when swept up in
the new dragnet. The government should be forced to go back to court to get
a particularized warrant that meets Fourth Amendment standards before it
can access American communications that have been swept up in these new
blanket or general warrants. Just because the program is directed at people
overseas, it doesn't mean that the Fourth Amendment rights of Americans
who have contact with them have been respected. There has not been a
surveillance program since FISA was created that allows massive,
untargeted collection of communications that will knowingly pick up US
communications on US soil without any suspicion of wrongdoing. This
creates novel and fundamental Fourth Amendment problems that Congress
should seek to avoid instead of sanctioning.
For these reasons, the ACLU opposes the RESTORE Act, H.R. 3773.
Sincerely,
Caroline Fredrickson
Director, Washington Legislative Office
Timothy Sparapani
Senior Legislative Counsel
For further information, please contact Senior Legislative Counsel
Timothy Sparapani at (202) 715-0839 or tsparapani@dcaclu.org, or
Lobbying Consultant Michelle Richardson at (202) 715-0825 or
mrichardson@dcaclu.org.
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1?
2?
Hello, Phoenix Woman!
hi!
NE1 know Rahm’s position on this deal?
EPU’d from last thread, but needs to be repeated:
Biodun @ 163
grammar nitpicking -
I think you’re missing ‘vote’ or something in there.
I’m wondering if Arlen is going to fold on his stand against immunity this time, like he’s folded every other time he’s spoken against something Darth wants.
Oh my! I try to keep my faxes to one page!
We have a lame turkey prez. Except for the possibility of more war, we are in limbo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KY0IXwsCxZI
Arthur Silbur is back, with more uncomfortable truths!
http://powerofnarrative.blogspot.com/
good luck driving the mules to the water, imploring them to drink.
perhaps afterwards, they will give us all a pony!
and even if they don’t, they will still get supported in even numbered years, for they are the Least Worst, forever and ever, amen.
If anyone is “emboldened” it is the neocons. They are so baldfaced about their lies that it proves the adage that it’s easier to get away with a whopper than a white lie.
I think dems go along cuz they think it makes them look good. But it doesn’t. It makes them look stupid.
Join the ACLU..the blue card will look good in your wallet. $20 for a good cause and another voice of protest.
thanks PW.
the rule for H.R.3773, the “restore act”, is being voted on in the House now.
representative holt made an excellent statement (even though he was given only 1.5 minutes) - i hope someone will post a youtube.
Hey, everyone!
Sorry for the long post, but I know that some folks have trouble with PDFs and so I decided to copy out the text of the ACLU letter on fixing (or deep-sixing) the RESTORE Act.
Repub talking points:
Dems want to make it necessary for foreign targets to have a warrant issued before they can be spied.
Dems interference with FISA caused the death of kidnapped soldiers in Iraq.
Dems are gonna get us all killed.
just want to say the Ds are only possibly slightly better. i just watched the house floor debate on the rule for the restore act and had to listen to speaker pelosi flat out lie too.
i am sick at heart.
Steve-AR @ 12
I’m a “Defender of Liberty” member… I have $25.00 automatic donation setup for years.
This also allows me to attend special ACLU events such as meeting John Dean and others.
selise @ 16
That’s why I reposted all those phone numbers from Christy’s post earlier this week: Call them now!
LS @ 15
dem talking points: we have a great bill. it protects everyone’s rights. all the organizations who care about civil liberties agree.
lies to the left of me, lies to the right. and here we are…
Selise - My cspan screen says this is a procedural vote, are you sure this is the final Restore vote?
If it is… I have a sinking feeling.
Phoenix Woman @ 18
and that’s why i said “thank you” *g*
i already called this morning. hope everyone else does too.
The formatting seems to be off in this post.
ACLU petition for Nancy Pelosi as well: No immunity
selise @ 13
Ooh details.
I am very displeased with my party. The Democratic party.
selise @ 18
Stuck in the middle with you.
selise @ 21
Called several, faxed many more (thanx again for those convenient fax #s).
Have to drive in to work now, but may I recommend Glenn Greenwald’s live blogging of the AG confirmation hearing:
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/index.html
Read you all later.
What does that “No” vote just now, mean?
Eureka Springs @ 20
it’s on the rule H. Res. 746 which governs how the fisa “restore act” will be considered (probably later today).
Right or wrong, the perception ‘out there’ is that there is not much sunshine shining between the two primary political parties.
Thank you Phoenix Woman for all that you do and thanks for the reminders once again. Have called a bunch but will call more.
The amazing thing to me is how in the hell can our Reps vote on a program that they can not even get the documents to. How in the hell can they vote on something that they do not fully well forget fully how about remotely understand.
Anything having to do with the Bush administration (Cheney’s Law on Frontline was so informative) is terribly suspect.
If folks did not see “Cheney’s Law” on Frontline, I am sure you can watch it at the PBS site. Well Worth the time.
Hello Mr. Dean how do you suggest we start pushing for IMPEACHMENT proceedings focused on David Addington the “Most wanted” on your impeachment list? This zealot is an expert at breaking the law. I bet his toilet paper at home has the constitution written on it.
Selise, hard to see what’s going on there’s a split screen with house procedural vote and then Chimpy presser on the right.
LS @ 15
Our response: Why are Repubs lying? Why do they want to take away your freedoms?
Our response: That’s another Republican lie and here’s the debunking.
Our response: All Republicans have is lies. The real question is: Why do they want to take away your freedoms?
Keep putting the words “Republican” and “lie” in close proximity. Yeah, I know, the New York Times won’t quote you if you call Republicans liars (even though they and the rest of Big Media have loved calling the Clintons liars for nearly two decades now), but someone in the press will pick it up if you keep doing it.
mui @ 24
i will try to make a little transcript…. give me a few, my typing is not great.
I do not consider today’s Democratic party, as exemplified by the DLC, Rahm Emanuel, Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi and Hillary Clinton as being progressive.
BREAKING: Stepping up to the plate, but for SCHIP, new numbers to use.
New poll numbers show 70% support for SCHIP, including 54% Republicans. Front page on DKos, or the numbers from Kaiser itself are linked below.
Some reps only accept email from constituents. So please constituents of the Bushdogs Marshall Eldrige and Taylor, email these numbers to them.
http://www.npr.org/news/graphi.....harts.html
mui @ 32
vote looks close so far. i expect it will pass (hope i’m wrong), then there will probably be the vote on the bill later today (maybe after a long break for dali-lama activities?)… so there’s still time to get your calls in.
All you Dems and progressives, you have nowhere to run but to Hillary. So there.
selise @ 34
don’t know what happened, but my audio recording is fucked up. :(
so sorry!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 35
Where is Henry Wallace when we need him? I believe John Edwards to be the Dem most reflective of Progressive values.
We will probably loose this one and a lot more over the next year. Take names and have long memories. These votes seem to attract trolls to FDL..”The Dems and Thugs are the same” yea right; “I wont give another penny to the Democrat Party”, that was one of my favorites.
If I feel discouraged, I watch a couple of segments of the PBS “Eyes on the Prize” or think about Rep. John Lewis’s autobiography. An ongoing one hundred plus year fight against the system; those lesions tell me to “suck it up” and keep pushing.and
Helpless Dancer @ 26
yep. *g*
p.s. the rule has passed.
Christy if you are checking in Happy Happy Birthday. And while I know you are a strong willed woman and will do what you want.. get some real time away from here.
Again Happy Birthday gal, you are a shining gem!
It’s Christy’s birthday?
Motion passed. 90 minutes of debate on bill. Selise?
If Gore gets drafted or somehow lands in the race, it could make waves in the Senate.
Think about all the money, sweat and tears the others have put into their campaigns!
http://current.com/items/85233.....nia_ballot
I was listening to Bush’s presser:
He was trying to be relevant.
He came across as a bully
Why does Congress put up this buffoon?
I’ll take your comments off air…
So the Restore Act will need only a simple majority to pass? Is this another case of Pelosi putting the fix in and then allowing those Democrats who want to to vote against it knowing it will pass?
I want to see John Edwards and Hillary Clinton, ‘one-on-one’.
Steve-AR @ 41
i’m willing to keep fighting so long as we don’t make excuses for dems who fuck up and we do our best to provide oversight.
Here’s the PBS link to Frontline’s Cheney’s Law program from last night. I missed it then. Ack.
Oh Turks have voted on their on own authorization for military action on Iraq, with Hillary clause (does not mean there will be action, it just authorizes action.).
selise @ 41
I was rather afraid of dating myself.
mui @ 45
looks like it… here’s the rule, H. RES. 746.
Got thru to my Sen. Feinstein’s office. They said she hasn’t decided/conveyed to them yet what her vote will be; registered my dismay about the noxious provisions and they promised to pass that along.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 38
wrong. there’s lots of places to eat besides Burger King and McDonalds.
Hugh @ 48
yeah, looks that way. especially with the holt bill still stuck in committee. but nothing is for sure until it’s actually happened.
Well, I called my congressperson and his staffer didn’t even seem to know what FISA was. So sad. They legislate against the constitution in such an off handed way. They really don’t even notice what they are doing.
I explained my opposition and e-mailed a lot of people to call too, but I suspect it will mean nothing.
What is even sadder is that this is the ONLY national blog that has put this issue front and center today and asked us to make calls. I don’t comment often here but I wanted thank you for that.
TexBetsy @ 43
Friday.
ACLU donation page
I’m a “Guardian of Liberty with a monthly donation
Feels good that my money has been fighting the good fight.
It’s Hillary. You’ll take it, and like it.
I have a question.
If immunity is included in the final FISA bill, will that make it easier to get info from the Telcos in order go after members in the Administration who actually ordered the illegal spying activities in the first place…prior to 9/11??
It seems to me that as long as they have no immunity, they are unlikely to ever dare to come forward with the incriminating information. Immunity granted to the Telcos does not grant immunity to the Administration.
Just trying to prepare myself for the worst by looking at it from another angle.
OT:
Did anyone happen to see the PBS program on Henry Wallace last night? Maybe it only aired here locally since he is from my area. Check out this quote from 1944:
” If we define an American fascist as one who in case of conflict puts money and power ahead of human beings, then there are undoubtedly several million fascists in the United States. There are probably several hundred thousand if we narrow the definition to include only those who in their search for money and power are ruthless and deceitful. … They are patriotic in time of war because it is to their interest to be so, but in time of peace they follow power and the dollar wherever they may lead.”
I would say this describes the modern day republican to a tee.
Steve-AR @ 41
The late Steve Gilliard, writing from his perspective as a black blogger, always reminded people that we’ve been in worse fixes. Especially if you had a black skin — the Constitution and Habeas Corpus didn’t exist for you until about four decades ago if you had a black skin. And in fact, HC was suspended officially and in toto by Lincoln during the Civil War, then reinstated once the war ended.
maryb2004 @ 58 -
miss your comments mary.
everyone was so appropriately angry after PAA in august. i don’t know what happened between then and now.
Phoenix Woman @ 64
That sounds like Obama’s message of hope and change. He points that out in his stump speeches.
the fisa debate has started in on the house floor.
conyers up.
selise @ 49
With a few exceptions, Chris Carney for example, any Dem is better than any thug. Prioritize goals: 1) President 2) More Dems in Congress 3) Better Dems. Without 1 & 2; 3 is pissing in the wind. It will probably at least the ‘12 election cycle for #3 to begin to have a real effect. The club to beat these fuckers with is money and organization. Just think how far we have come since the Lamont primary and it’s still very early in the game. I am very pissed off, but I know who the enemy is and it isn’t the Dem Party.
maryb2004 @ 58
Wow. Thanks, Mary!
It’s so sad: Bush’s numbers are now at 24%. That’s Nixon territory. Yeah, Congress’ # are worse, but that’s because of the GOPers and those Dems that enable them. But the Beltway media sings its siren song and clouds men’s minds like Lamont Cranston.
Conyers on the restore act now. This act does not have individual warrents, but flexibility? Heh has he gone off the rails? Or am I confused.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 61
And (to paraphrase an old New Yorker cartoon), I say it’s spinach and I say the hell with it.
selise @ 67
then what was i watching an hour ago?
sporkovat @ 56
Hillary is not there yet. I monitor my middle class Wright Patterson Air Force family.(out of 11 children in my mothers Catholic family seven of the 11 work and worked at Wright Pat). I listen closely to their opinions and insights to get a pulse for middle America. Most of them ( just went to a family reunion many many cousins at GM etc.) are now Edwards people.
Out of the candidates this is who I am most interested in seeing move into the number 1 position after Iowa.
Although my Archie Bunker (once upon a time Teamster) stepfather is all about Hillary. If Hillary can rope a man like this (he really likes how smart she is) something is up.
LS @ 66
Exactly. We can’t bring back to like the million-plus Iraqis that Bush’s invasion has killed, but bad laws can be undone and good laws reinstated.
Conyers: no retroactive immunity for telcoms?
It’s a done deal folks. Congress is handing over the entire country to the worst administration in the history of the country. It’s sad but take heart, now the phone companies can bill you for listening in and recording your phone conversations and email. What a deal!!! In case you can’t recognize it, the charge will be listed under WWT for Warentless Wire Taps. Cheers!
All lines busy at DiFi’s office - I’ll take that as a good sign, and call back…
Steve-AR @ 68
my priorties are a bit different than yours. my number 1 is “better dems” and i think this will help with 1 & 2. imo, much of the leadership of the dem party has proven to be my enemy.
I just called Snowe’s office.
But (sort of OT) I also saw this in today’s paper. I’m really concerned about how benevolently most Mainers regard Susan Collins. We will need major help here. According to today’s poll if the senate election was held today, Collins would be easily re-elected.
http://bangornews.com/news/t/n.....zoneid=500
Lamar Smith talking about how the restore act will help Osama bin Laden.
Gee Lamar, Maybe we shoulda gotten him by now and that would not be a problem.
Oh and Lamar says that we should thank the telcos, not punish them.
selise @ 16
Missed that this morning. Sorry to hear that you are “sick at heart”. It is certainly understandable. Know (because we know) that you are trying to do your best as a very concerned citizen and activist. Selise I am sincerely appreciative for all that you do to keep us up on the hearings.
Watching Republicans is like swatting flies to be able to see through to the pile that is this bill.
Blunt - in the throws of a full-on breakdown:
“If Osama calls and orders a pizza, we should know.”
Let me get this straight. Hillary Clinton is the best we Democrats can produce?
mui @ 70
conyers is off the rails.
TexBetsy @ 72
that was the debate on the fisa rule (how the bill would be considered), now is the debate on the fisa bill.
mui @ 75
the restore act only has prospective immunity.
selise @ 77
I am going with John Dean’s analysis, if we don’t retake the Presidency in ‘08 it’s game-over; and it will be a long time in the dark.
newtonusr @ 83
Does he like mushrooms or onions? Pretty sure that pepperoni is out.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 84
No, but Gore won’t run.
selise @ 85
Thanks Selise, you are so helpful in seeing through all this smoke and mirrors.
Steve-AR @ 86
i thought the same thing about 2004. and while i don’t want to minimize the danger of a rudy presidency - the game isn’t over so long as we breath and have not conceeded.
Garbo @ 55
According to another commenter, they said that yesterday, as well. hmph!
mui @ 89 -
thanks, mui. i’m trying, but am no expert. pow wow’s detailed analysis in the comments have really helped.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 83
No..but the best we can produce are too far ahead of the electorate..Hillary learned that lesson in 1980 when Bill and she got ahead of the electorate and he lost re-election for Gov. Good ideas and intent don’t mean shit if you can be elected.
All over MSM news…Gore not running per a speech he gave in Oslo.
Actually, he said what he always says, I have no “plans” to run.
He’s still in.
selise @ 92
Why are all these Dems lining up to protect this bill. It’s insane.
Glenn Greenwald has a clear crisp assessment of this morning’s Mukasey hearings. Mukasey buys into or fudges on most of the most extreme aspects of Bush’s extra-Constitutional power grabs. This is another confirmation process a la John Roberts where smooth manners trump radical tendencies. Leahy will no doubt be surprised and shocked somewhere down the road that he was misled by Mukasey. Is there anything more criminal than a Republican or more worthless than a Democrat? This seems to be the great question of our times.
Bush screws women and everyone else with this new appointment. Another Religious wack job to get a high level cabinet post:
http://www.crooksandliars.com/.....ng-office/
Who are the big brains in the Democratic party today? Pelosi, Reid, Harold Ford Jr., Rahm, and Hillary? Oh and perhaps Joe Lieberman too?
LS @ 94
preventive strike - i suspect there are some people who want to make sure he doesn’t run.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 83
With all due respect, do you ever actually do any calling and try to change the system and the various candidates? Or have you just given up and decided it’s easier to hang out and make wise cracks about the ones you don’t like all day?
mui @ 95
it’s conyer’s and reye’s bill.
Steve-AR @ 86
Yes, I think he’s got the priority down, there.
Ergh. Randy Forbes. Televangelist style.
To give you an idea of what the ‘basket warrant’ provision is designed to allow, here’s an excerpt from the House Judiciary Committee report on the RESTORE Act:
[Footnote #27 reads: See e.g., Leslie Cauley, NSA Has Massive Database of Americans’ Phone Calls, USA TODAY, May 11, 2006 (telephone companies cooperating with NSA pattern analysis without FISA warrants); and Eric Lichtblau, F.B.I. Data Mining Reached Beyond Initial Targets, N.Y. TIMES, September 9, 2007 (FBI sought ‘‘community of interest data’’ through National Security Letters).]
http://www.rules.house.gov/110.....iciary.pdf
This “programmatic” warrant provision is most definitely not confined to surveillance of communications generated abroad (an entirely separate provision in RESTORE cures the “foreign to foreign on a U.S. wire” issue). Flowery words from the Democratic leadership to the contrary, the excellent ACLU analysis posted above by Phoenix Woman puts the lie to the claims that the RESTORE Act complies with the Fourth Amendment. Apparently playing the PR game is far more important than our Constitution, on a “bipartisan” basis, in today’s corrupt Congress.
I am so damn weary of the ‘electibility’ (or non-electible, if you will) premise.
selise @ 101
And they can’t admit they’re wrong?
Shorter Randy Forbes: 9/11 happened because Clinton “cut and ran”
Oklahoma kiddo @ 98
I wish Russ Feingold had a more prominent leadership role, and were more influential. Only because, you know, he’s been right on both the issues and the tactics.
pow wow @ 104
Merci! More reinforcement needed in seeing through the house of glass and mirrors.
dakine01 @ 100
Yes I do. If it’s any of your business. “With all due respect”.
do-si-do @ 91
I think they do this on purpose - I think they either tell their people to tell callers that they don’t know…or they refuse to tell staff at that level their positions. I also think that they all take the position that Nancy Pelosi does, that we are only worth their derision.
Hugh @ 96
no.
thanks for playing this round of atrio’s simple answer to simple questions.
Well Hello Dali Well hello Dali It would be so nice to see you back where you belong.
Dali Lama will be on C-span in a half an hour.
If you have never been in the presence of the Dali Lama if you are near Bloomington Indianna
http://www.dalailama.com/page.60.htm
Teaching in Bloomington, Indiana, USA from October 24 to 26: His Holiness will give three-day teachings on Atisha’s Lamp for the Path to Enlightenment (jangchup lamdron). Contact: Arjia Rinpoche, Tibetan Culutral Center, 3655 Snoddy Road, Bloomington, Indiana. Tel: (812) 331-0014/336-6807. Website: www.tibetancc.com
This will be my third time over to Bloomington to be in his presence and receive his teachings. I have had the opportunity to be in his presence 7 times over the last 30 years and he is truly amazing.
Growing up in Catholic schools the first time I had ever really heard (in any depth) about Buddhism was in a Comparative Religion class when I was 14. Bells went off when I began to study some of the teachings and core beliefs of Buddhism. I have always been moved when I hear the Dali Lama say it really does not matter what Religion or belief system that you live by, just as long as you are trying to be a compassionate person…that is all that matters.
Here is one of his prayers
http://www.dalailama.com/page.21.htm
Oklahoma kiddo @ 109
I was just curious as all you ever seem to do is whine about how bad things are but never seem to offer any potential solutions. Other than pining for Gore to run.
whew! pow wow’s here and on the job. thank you pow wow!
I know so much more now than I did 5 minutes ago. All things become clear.
sporkovat @ 10
I am a devoted reader of Silbur’s. He is gloomy but, in my judgement, about 98.96% correct ( /- 0.034%). He offers a challenge and a request. He challenged bloggers to place adds intended to stop the madness with regards to Iran, to call out politicians on the lies they keep spewing to the public about how very dangerous and evil Iran is. No one takes up the challenge.
Now Silbur wishes to attempt to do so on his own, seeking help from anyone (monetary and otherwise) who actually gives a shit. We place adds for SCHIP, but nothing to stop a seemingly inevitable run into an expanded war with Iran. Every step taken by the Democraps and Rethuglicans in Congress is a step closer to attacking Iran with their full blessing.
YES, call and fax and email in favor of warrants, against illegal spying, and for habeas corpus, but also work to shut their mouths with regards to Iran. Not a single politico on either side speaks truth about the NON-threat that is Iran. They ALL blow Iran up into a monstrous boogieman worse and more powerful than Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, and the Soviet Union combined and on steroids. IT IS NONSENSE!
Do your calls on FISA. I have and do, but also do something more. End the war and occupation of Iraq and PREVENT more war with the inoffensive people of Iran, a country that has NEVER attacked another country for something like 300 years.
selise @ 85
What is prospective immunity?
Uh Oh Jane Harmen.
dakine01 @ 114
I could be rude. But what’s the point. I’ll just ignore the situation.
Good ideas and intent don’t mean shit if you can be elected.
I agree, but I think you meant can’t be elected.
Of course, we have more progressive Dems, but not enough people will back Dennis. And, it’s not just that bad hair cut and Sears suits.
His ideas are too progressive for our nation. But, that doesn’t mean he shouldn’t run. He is laying the ground work for later. The public’s heads and hearts have to catch up.
TexBetsy @ 72
Oh crikey. Harmen it’s like sandpaper.
Kathleen @ 117
for future acts. hopefully pow wow will jump in here with a correct statement.
Praedor Atrebates @ 122
They’re taking a recess for Dali Lama (IMHO a truly great being.) rumor has it he has the big C.
dakine01 @ 114
Gore at least stands for something. Hillary? Depends. What time is it?
selise @ 123
Is this correct? I read that as they are giving them permission to break the law in the future.
mui @ 123
The Dali Lama gold medal ceremony live on CSpan1 - a nice antidote to Jane Harman dear mui. Whoops, the President too.
Praedor Atrebates @ 122
c-span1.
the house is not at recess until 2 pm EDT, when i think they will continue debate on the fisa bill.
Helen @ 127
Well goddamnit! I want perspective immunity then myself. If it is good enough for a nonexistent entity like a corporation then it is most assuredly good enough for an actual living, breathing, voting human being. I want immunity for FUTURE acts I might take at odds with the law!
dakine01 @ 114
I have heard OKK make many suggestions. It is understandable that people feel overwhelmed and sarcastic. I just believe that one does not want to get stuck there for your own personal well being. I appreciate what both of you offer here at FDL. And once in a while people have their snarky days.
Now I heard Dalai Lama is the true thing. I wish some of his magic could rub off on Pelosi. Snare chimpy with the magic too.
Oops. I meant I want perspective immunity, not prospective immunity. I will also take blanket retroactive immunity.
Right, selise @ 124 - Meaning from here on out, if this becomes law. [Helen @ 127 - it gives immunity to the corporations even if somehow in future the RESTORE Act were to be found unConstitutional and/or illegal by the Judicial Branch - something much less likely to happen if retroactive immunity is also granted.]
Praedor @ 122 - They just adjourned subject to the call of the chair until about 2 p.m. (C-SPAN 1). They are part way through the 90 minutes of debate on RESTORE, and will resume that debate, and presumably proceed to a vote, when they reconvene.
Hugh @ 126
Although Senator Clinton is not my first choice, I think you do underestimate her. She has shown a long term commitment to trying to help children and others. She is a politician for good or ill.
Al Gore is also a politician. If/when he decided to enter the race, I would wager that he’d make some calculated political decisions, just as he did in Y2K. That is a reality of life as politicians.
pow wow @ 134
Well a small mercy on us who don’t want to listen to Jane Harman.
Thanks pow wow
demi @ 121
Correct..and Dennis is probably to the right of my politics..but if he got the nomination, it would be a pyrrhic victory and we will end up in a nice “civil emergency camp”..waving to you across the barbed wire.
mui @ 132
Chimpy looks awfully dazed and confused beside his Holiness….and quite hung over.
Praedor Atrebates @ 130
You have made a common but fundamental error. In the view of our political leadership (of both parties), corporations do exist. It is you who don’t.
newspaperbrat @ 139
His holiness has magic that works in strange ways. I’d like to see if DiFi starts to look a little queasy as well.
OK Diane enough about you. We want to hear from the Dali
http://www.c-span.org/watch/cs.....t=TV&C
ode=CS3
newspaperbrat @ 139
It’s true. Dali Lama is aware fo the closeness between sacred and profane. So he’s not uncomfortable, I should think.
dakine01 @ 135
Not really. Just not overly impressed. She represents old time politics, a DINO among DINOs. She supported both the AUMF against Iraq and the war for years before her deeply equivocal rejection of them. It says a lot about her character and her potential leadership that she never apologized for her decisions but tried to blame Bush instead. If Bush fooled her on the AUMF why did she support the war until earlier this year? Triangulation is I believe another character issue. Sure it is just a function of politics but in most politicians some core values and red lines show through but not with Hillary. That is the difference between her and Gore. We have a feel for where Gore draws those lines but with Hillary we have none.
Hugh @ 140
is *Pastor* John Hagee waving his magic manna wand demanding health care for children?
oh I thought not.
Monday, as y’all know Pete Hoekstra (R-Mich.), former chairman and ranking member of the Intelligence Committee, cited the delay in surveillance when three American soldiers kidnapped in Iraq in May.
Former FBI whistle blower Mike German, who worked on cases of domestic terrorism before joining the ACLU Washington Legislative Office as Policy Counsel on National Security, Immigration and Privacy in 2006, contradicted Hoekstra in an article by the conservative Cybercast News Service:
“It is shameful of the administration to put families of soldiers in a political argument. There is no loophole to be closed….FISA has never restricted the military or NSA (National Security Agency) from conducting surveillance from foreign soil. They know if they are sitting in Iraq they don’t have to come back to FISA.”
German noted that the military waited three days after the kidnapping before seeking approval from the NSA, the Department of Justice (DoJ), and former Attorney General Gonzales and filing for a warrant.
“This is not about the law. It took them five hours to convince DoJ to even apply for the warrant.”
Interestingly, the rightwingnut blogosphere ignored this part of the story and assailed the ACLU for enabling terrorism. Why am I not surprised?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 49
Hillary couldn’t handle that. She needs Osama, er Obama to her left pushing Edwards away, so she won’t have to answer any questions or say anything at all.
Al @ 79
How is Allen using his money? Does he call her a Conservative Bush Republican who wants to attack Iran with nuclear bombs?
He should also cite her votes that give away the Constitution. I don’t know them, but since she’s a Conservative Bush Republican she’s probably subverted the Constitution multiple times. Just look up her voting record and cite it.
newtonusr @ 83
If Osama bin Laden is calling anyone we should be asking George W. Bush why ObL is still alive and free!
Hugh @ 144
All of the lines Hillary draws look like triangles and they lead nowhere. That’s why her speeches and policy positions are empty sop for the uninformed.
After coming back from the Dalai Lama, the Republicans used the threat of a motion to recommit to stall the RESTORE Act and
Dems ajourned halfway through the alloted discussion.
The language to be added would say that the Act cannot in any way prevent intelligence agencies from tracking Osama bin Laden, Al Qaeda or conversations between other foreign terrorist entities.
Returning the legislation for committee review would take about nine days.
The Repubs who to make it hard for any member to vote against.
Steny Hoyer says they will work through it, whatever that means.
See: http://www.npr.org/templates/s.....d=15377328 plus the stories at Voice of America and FOX. (No, I’m not linking to them.)