In case you were wondering about the need for individual, particularized warrants for American citizens under FISA, wonder no more:
...Verizon also disclosed that the FBI, using administrative subpoenas, sought information identifying not just a person making a call, but all the people that customer called, as well as the people those people called. Verizon does not keep data on this "two-generation community of interest" for customers, but the request highlights the broad reach of the government's quest for data.
The disclosures, in a letter from Verizon to three Democrats on the House Energy and Commerce Committee investigating the carriers' participation in government surveillance programs, demonstrated the willingness of telecom companies to comply with government requests for data, even, at times, without traditional legal supporting documents. The committee members also got letters from AT&T and Qwest Communications International, but those letters did not provide details on customer data given to the government. None of the three carriers gave details on any classified government surveillance program.
From January 2005 to September 2007, Verizon provided data to federal authorities on an emergency basis 720 times, it said in the letter. The records included Internet protocol addresses as well as phone data. In that period, Verizon turned over information a total of 94,000 times to federal authorities armed with a subpoena or court order, the letter said. The information was used for a range of criminal investigations, including kidnapping and child-predator cases and counter-terrorism investigations.
Verizon and AT&T said it was not their role to second-guess the legitimacy of emergency government requests.... (emphasis mine)
Beyond the blatant attempt at fobbing this onto the government by playing the "we're just being patriotic and who are we to ask questions" game, playing Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon with people's phone records without any third-party court review of the requests is an open door for abuse.
Multiply that across every telecommunications company in the United States and the number of years that the Bush Administration has been end-running the FISA court altogether using Patriot Act provisions that were meant as emergency situation stop-gaps (and not as everyday occurrances). Add in the fact that, as ex-Qwest CEO Joseph Nacchio says, the Bush Administration was already pushing for these legal end-runs a full six months prior to 9/11/01...and you have a recipe for an Administration who could give a rat's ass about the rule of law, and which still didn't keep America safe from attack even with their end-run of FISA.
Look at the article snippet: there were 94,000 times that Verizon turned over information under a lawful subpoena and/or court order. Why the end-run of 720 times of emergency information grabs? Some of these might have been wholly legitimate emergency situations, but the overuse of these provisions across the board coupled with significant questions about security of the information gathered -- including the recent review saying that they were used in some situations for wholly inappropriate reasons without remotely adequate oversight and supervision -- ought to raise a whole host of red flags for potential abuse.
Do you trust George Bush and Dick Cheney not to misuse their authority or not overreach in their information grabs? Me neither.
For the record, I used to get phone records and other information for criminal prosecutions from these companies all the time. I used a warrant which came with judicial review of the particulars. You know why? Because that is what the law requires. With great power comes a great responsibility to ensure that this power is used wisely and carefully.
National security concerns are important -- but so is following the law and upholding the Constitution. We must respect both security and liberty. Please make some calls regarding FISA today -- and tell your Senators and Representatives to say no to retroactive immunity for telecoms -- because we aren't even close to knowing the full story on this mess yet. Don't forget that Cheney's Law will be broadcast this evening on Frontline. I hear it's going to be a doozy...
More from Jack at Balkinization (including a streaming BloggingheadsTV interview with Jack on FISA, the rule of law and national security concerns) and Glenn Greenwald at Salon.
(H/T to reader Ima Patriot Too for the heads up on this.)
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Christy!
I sleep so much better knowing Christy is on the J.O.B.
After I read the information she brings, however…
Very sobering and should make EVERYONE in this country sit up and take notice…
I had posted this link earlier but it is on topic here. Editorial from today’s Denver Post Stand up for civil liberties with the subhead of “It’s time for Democrats to stick up for the rule of the law and fight the president on the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.”
peanutbutter @ 3
The ditttoheads will spin it as a good thing, and not n issue over which “patriotic” Americans should be worried.
Wait until Clinton, Obama, or Edwards takes over - they’ll be calling for blood.
Maybe we can create some more toxic ads to put up in Congresscritters hometowns, so their country club buddies can see it. I really love how the SCHIP thing is going. Could we nail them on FISA as well? Got some pocket change to spare.
Watch the whole video to find out how the wiretapping and datamining works and who has access to this datamining.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aUzuzs2oC0
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/Israeli-Spy
ing-Part-3.htm
if “individual, particularized warrants” are important to you, TODAY is your last day to lobby in support of that position.
our democratic leadership in the House is preparing to vote away our fourth amendment rights TOMORROW by voting for H.R.3773 (the so called “restore act”)…. while H.R.3782 (a good alternative) remains stuck in committee.
I particularly appreciate your perspective as a former prosecutor who got necessary information within the law, by getting the required subpoenas, for your cases.
Don’t miss this article Christy linked as “including the recent review”
EFF warns House committee about the privacy risks of government databases
selise @ 8
Ughh. Selise who is most responsible for that do you think? Voting on shite, other is stuck?
Given that so many innocent people are swept up in this manic drive to determine who may be a “terrorist” it would seem that tens of thousands, if not millions, clearly have “standing”.
How is this so different from when a polluter releases toxins into the environment that covers an area. Not EVERYONE in that zone are effected, but one can call forward a “class action suit” in behalf of those that WERE! And obtaining those names would be quite simple, actually.
And I really don’t see the argument that any of this would “compromise” government methods and sources to terrorists. There is nothing particularly here that would allow terrorists to avoid detection through using some methodology.
We know that the phone companies released thousands of records. So we know the NSA’s “source”. And the methods the NSA used are hardly sophisticated.
mui @ 6
the problem with FISA is that we are being fucked over by our own leadership on this one.
see my comments from previous thread (here and here)
It sure appears that congressional oversight is back in style after six years of Republican oversight slumber. Let’s hope Senator Rockefeller and others on the Intelligence committee and Pelosi, Harman and those in the House responsible for oversight accept their full responsibility and do not in any way allow for any type of “retroactive immunity” for US or Israeli telecommunication companies.
The American people are hungry to witness our Reps enforce oversight and for ACCOUNTABILITY.
Ever notice how these thugs always have lawyers in tow and never do anything without getting their legal department to bless it?
But now why even call their high paid layers.. just tell uncle sam.. we’re patriots. We’re in!
mui @ 11
pelosi, conyers and reyes - these three control the process (i’m sure hoyers is not on our side either, but that’s to be expected).
I suspect if someone did some digging, you might find that these violations go back to Bush’s first few months in office…anyone remember the don’t call lists. Wonder what they did with that information?????
selise @ 13
What is wrong with Nancy Pelosi these days. I don’t understand her positions?
Shorter young Junya: “Ah shore wish ah could hear what everybody’s sayin’ ’bout me.”
selise @ 16
Steny Hoyers. Harummph. Of course not.
What time is the vote again. In the house?
I am going to say for the five hundredth time: this was perfectly screamingly predictable. How so? The entire illegitimacy of the Bush junta was and is rooted in total contempt for the law, it was born that way in Bush vs. Gore.
They empirically were shown that for them the law meant nothing. Of course they’d break it like they breathe, when you trash the democracy to steal an election the law means nothing.
Everyone just said oh well, Bush will be all right, I freaking screamed to the heavens this would happen, god damn it.
And speaking of do not call legislation, the protection is about to expire for around 50,000,000 people. Ooops.
Morning, Christy!
Morning, all!
FWIW, I’m told that both Pelosi and Conyers have been advocating against retroactive immunity and for more safeguards on warrants within the Dem caucus meetings. By several sources, actually.
What we get to hear about publicly and what is being discussed within the caucus are often very different things — because within the caucus there can be argument, and outside it there has to be a unified leadership front.
It is always worth considering any reporting on this and every other issue with a huge grain of salt. Consider the huge difference between what LHP reported from her firsthand watching of the Clinton speech yesterday — and how the narrative read in subsequent press reports, just as one example. Always question what you read — even here. Always.
egregious @ 23
what do you mean?
Christy- Excuse me for pointing out that I think Verizon is throwing up a smokescreen
While it’s true that Verizon may not “keep data on this “two-generation” community of interest” the same disclosure would suggest that they do keep the records, and provided them, of ANYONE that the NSA asked for.
It wouldn’t take Alexander Graham Bell to realize that the NSA would then take the names of those called by those on their first set of requests and submit THOSE to Verizon for THEIR phone records.
So who needs whatever this data set for a “two-generation community of interest is”. All the NSA needs to do is ask twice, and they would have gotten what they need…without warrants…from the spineless Telcoms.
mui @ 18
i don’t know, but she’s taken to actively lying to us (see FISA clip).
and yesterday, when i called her office to ask them to confirm or deny that conyers and reyes were holding up holt’s better FISA bill in committee at speaker pelosi’s request - they refused to respond. when i told that story to ACLU rep today, he said, “That doesn’t surprise me.”
Paradox @ 22 nails it.
Laws are malleable. Sure they are for law and order, but they choose the laws to honor and if there is not they make on and if there is one which prevents what they need to do, they change it, re interpret it, have it tossed out, or simply pretend it doesn’t exist. And then they scream LAW AND ORDER.
It (the laws and the constitution) means nothing to these people. They have the goal and the means ALWAYS are justified by the ends.
ALWAYS
Christy,
It has been interesting to watch where the WH is putting their PR this week. It has been on FISA. Of course, there have been shrill blogs regarding SCHIP against the Dems but the PR drive from the WH has been regarding FISA. The WH probably loves the effort being put towards SCHIP by the grassroots and hopes for less of a response on FISA.
I hope the netroots can get people rallied on both FISA and SCHIP. Splitting grassroots energy/resources is a tactic.
Together as legislation, they stand for “Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness..”
Elliott @ 26
Iirc the protection only lasts for 5 years.
ACLU petition NO retroactive immunity!
Jena 6 hearing on C-Span 3.
http://www.c-span.org/watch/cs_cspan3_wm.as
p?Cat=TV&Code=CS3
What a justice system where Ari Fleisher, Rove, Libby, Novak and others run free after outing an undercover agent whose job was focused on National Security, and whose outing may take the CIA 10 years to recover from.
Yet young black men are thrown in jail for beating up a white kid (obviously not acceptable) and Mycheal Bell is tried as an adult, held in prison for months, and the white kids who hung the nooses suffered no consequences.
District Attorney Reed Walters and President Bush have something in common they both like to stroke pens. District Attorney Walter Reed told those students “with a stroke of a pen, I can make your lives disappear” President Bush stroked his pen and over ruled the Federal Courts and set the convicted Libby free.
Why does any one wonder why there is such deep dis-respect for our justice system?
The full 13 page pdf of the Verizon response to the House Energy and Commerce Committee’s questions is up at the committee website.
One section I found laughable, after reading that line in the Post that said “Verizon and AT&T said it was not their role to second-guess the legitimacy of emergency government requests”, was this:
So, Verizon *does* apparently second-guess at least some requests for information. Just not the biggest and most outrageous requests.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 25
i think the best evidence is by what people actually do - not what they say.
can you tell me why holt’s bill is held up in committee, while the restore act is being hurried through? because that’s what’s actually happening, and it doesn’t jive with a leadership trying to get us more protections on warrants.
couldn’t holt’s bill even be discussed in committee?
Christy Hardin Smith @ 25
Thank you.
I’m with Christy.
Question. Authority. Always.
mc @ 37
absolutely.
and i don’t like where my questions are leading me.
OT, Frosts, BREAKING: McConnell admits to initiating smear of Frosts and then trying to blame it on the bloggers.
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.c.....l_aide.php
Peterr @ 34
I really did laugh out loud when I read this:
“Verizon and AT&T said it was not their role to second-guess the legitimacy of emergency government requests”
But it isn’t funny. How can there even be any consideration of immunity for the telecoms? Their liability must be colossal.
CHS @ 25:
Self-doubt and self-interrogation are good things…
Didn’t Verizon get a multibillion dollar contract from the Executive Branch/Rove to rebuild the infratructure around the WTC right after 9/11?
Hmmm, no wonder.
cinnamonape @ 27
The second set of requests would, of course, be completely beyond the pale of the limits specifically established by the FISA law. It would consist of a request on a person that wasn’t identified as a terrorist or associate of a terrorist. AND DOMESTIC!
Of course Verizon and these other corrupt facilitators of domestic spying wouldn’t even blink at this…the government asks…they provide!
And what the hell are these “Administrative Subpoenas” and how the hell can these be used in lieu of a search warrant signed by a Magistrate?
I will just keep saying the following;
they are stealing, plain and simple, stealing from us
they are gathering intelectual property that will help them;
1) have informaiton to use against political oponents
2 )have personal information to hold over their oponent’s head
3) gather professional information as far as contacts, supply sources, customers
that is what’s going on here, there is NO other reason they don’t want courts to make sure they are NOT stealing, whiich means they ARE
now, if politicians would PUHLEEZE frame this discussion THOSE terms they would be FAR more succssful
Elliott @ 40
…and their gratitude for release from this colossal liability would be quite gracious. But unless some crooked Dems are negotiating with the Telecoms, most of that money would go to the GOP and GOP PACs, so why even think twice about this, Dems? GOP fundraising is going down. Denying retroactive immunity is a plus for personal freedom, and helps continue the drain on GOP coffers.
selise @ 38
Neither do I. But you’re a trooper.
Elliott @ 40
And the personal legal problems for any in-house counsel might similarly be colossal. I can’t imagine any of these companies going ahead with cooperation without having their top lawyer sign off. Can you say “disbarrment”? Maybe even “aiding and abetting a conspiracy”? Sure you can.
From White House press release on January 1, 2006:
So now we know Chimpy was lying to his teeth.
Good morning from L.A. Back from a business trip to Seattle & w/a bit of time on my hands this a.m. to do some faxing for FISA & S-CHIP. Much thanks for putting together that huge list of Congressional fax #s, CHS.
**donations to FDL & Blue America PAC heading your way about now**
Typical Ham Handed Approach…There doesn’t seem to be a real protocol for what they were doing.
That alone merits closer look at what these companies have been doing for OUR government.
selise — On the Holt bill, I wish I knew. I’ve been having the same problem getting a straight answer from anyone on it. Will let you know if I get anything concrete…
At the Jena 6 hearing Charles Ogletree from Harvard said that “there is a cancer in Jena”. He went onto say that when parents and school administrators refer to the hanging of nooses as a “practical joke” there is something deeply wrong.
The racial injustice that took is taking place in Jena that “cancer” has been malignant in our nation for a long long time.
We know that there are a lot more Mycheal Bells in our prison system out there. While the Ari Fleisher’s, Rove’s, and Libby’s who commit serious crimes against our whole nation run free.
anyone have any idea on how to lobby pelosi, conyers and reyes effectively - and get them to stop supporting basket warrants?
fomui @ 32
Thanks. Hope folks pass this one on
I’m curious about why businesses are not up in arms about this issue. Their communications are fair game too. I would think that a lot of behind the scenes e-mails, etc. could cause a lot of problems.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 51
thank you so much.
i don’t like that they won’t answer my questions… but i’m a nobody. if they won’t answer your questions, then we’re in even bigger trouble.
I find this quote to be quite apropo this morning:
“America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter, and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.”
~Abraham Lincoln
paradox @ 22:
Well-said. Yep: Bush v Gore in 2000 underscored so well that the rule of law was still-born in the Bush administration.
Companies like Verizon are so dependent on government regulation (and govt. contracts) in their business I think it’s a little naive to be shocked to learn when the govt. says “Jump” their response is “How high?”
The focus should remain primarily on the people who made the illegal requests of these companies.
It’s hard for me to grasp the level of criminal activity sanctioned by this administration, and equally as hard for me to understand Congress continuing to put up with it.
BlueStateRedHead @ 39
Me, OT again, but the T is one that has been of concern and can be used in your calls to the Bushdogs.
My line is:
While not a constituent, I am concerned that Congressperson X’s integrity not be besmirched by an association with a Party complicit in slandering a brain-injured boy, by the admission of its leader.
and while on the OT, here is the text of a letter to the public editor of the NYT just sent. It contains links for your use.
public@nytimes.com
Dear Sir,
RE: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10.....ref=slogin and your reporting that “an aide” to Sen. McConnell “expressed relief that his office had not issued a press release criticizing the Frosts.” ABC gave us reason to believe the contrary very soon.
http://blogs.abcnews.com/polit.....r-chi.html
The Times remained silent.
Today McConnell admits it.
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.c.....l_aide.php
Shame on you for lending your authority to this cruel operation. You owe your readers including this lifelong one and journalistic ethics something better, and you owe an apology to the family for giving credence to what amounts to a slander.
Speaking of eroding freedoms, Tom Anderson, another Corrupt Bastard ex-Alaska GOP Legislator is about to head to the slammer for five years:
“He took the money because he wanted the money,” Sedwick said. The judge said he doesn’t think Anderson, 40, will get in trouble again. “But I have a very considerable concern for sending a message to the community that we really can’t tolerate the kind of behavior in which he engaged,” the judge said.
Sedwick said he knew the case was heartbreaking for Anderson’s large crowd of supporters. Most defendants who come before him have no one, the judge said.
Among those who showed up for Anderson: his wife, state Sen. Lesil McGuire, and his father, also Tom Anderson, former director of Alaska State Troopers.
“I have no idea how Mr. Anderson’s apple fell so far from the tree, but it did,” Sedwick said.
BlueStateRedHead @ 60
good one!
holleahock @ 55
I think it might be this:
Of course, we know how that ends:
selise @ 53
Putting up ads in their respective country clubs?
Ed*ard Teller @ 61
Dear E**T.
Congratulations! A good word and thanks you for keeping us informed and caring about it.
Kathleen @ 7
According to the Fox News report, sophisticated spys and bad guys can detect the wiretaps and change up their systems. What is inferred is that the rest of us chickens are being wire tapped without our knowledge or consent.
Privacy rights have been thrown out the window. What about the stock market? What stops sophisticated wiretappers from monitoring data to manipulate stock prices. What about politics? Couldn’t operatives spy on each other’s campaigns? It seems very easy for abuses to occur.
At Jena 6 hearing.
Rep Berman just asked “why the people in Jena think that there is nothing wrong in Jena”
Professor Charles Ogletree said that the young black men are not saints and did something seriously wrong, but the punishment was not proportionate to the crime. He also brought up how the white students were let off.
U.S. attorney David Washington just said “hanging the three nooses was a HATE CRIME”
ET, is it too late to invest in the prison construction business in Alaska? The specs for the construction of the Senator Ted Stevens Memorial Correction Facility keep getting bigger.
Thanks Elliot for the encouragement.
And to continue my obsession, Christy wants an MD lawyer to opine on whether there is cause for a harassment or slander case. Where are you Tiredfed when we need you.
ET,
Popcorn sales up in your neck of the woods. Blue Alaska!
btw, all — just FYI — am going to be taking a break the rest of the week. Mr. ReddHedd is whisking me away for my birthday. But I’ll be trying to keep up with news while I’m gone. Do be kind to the mods, the wonderful folks posting, and each other in my absence, would you? :)
Selise - if you’re still around, I left something for you at the end of late late nite.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 71
Have a Happy Birthday!
and hey, have fun too!
Christy Hardin Smith @ 71
Just worry about keeping up with Mr.ReddHedd, and leave keeping up with the news to us, OK?
Jena 6 hearing
How many students hung the nooses? “2″. One student drove the other two there.
After being asked by a Rep. how things in Jena could settle down and not spiral out of control.
Brian Moran from Naacp said “there is a cry for peace and harmony in Jena, but not a cry for justice”
Peterr @ 68
There is no Federal Pen in Alaska, and probably never will be. Anderson has asked to be sent to the medium security prison in Sheriden, OR. No guarantees from the judge, though. They may need to build a GOP wing somewhere in the lower 48, though.
The special legislative session to re-work the oil tariff laws passed so corruptly two years ago, begins today in Juneau.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 71
I promise. Have fun, you need to get away and enjoy.
While we’re on the subject…
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/27669
Happy Birthday Christy!
And don’t worry, we promise we’ll behave. Have a great trip, you deserve all the best.
twolf1 @ 72
got it, thanks!
Christy Hardin Smith @ 71
Yes but will still question… especially myself.
Happy Birthday Christy! This is my favorite Happy Birthday song by Stevie Wonder for Martin Luther King. You Christy (and many of the other FDLers) are walking in Martins enormous footsteps.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97V8DcbDOOs
Listening to Stevie will lift your soul!
christy - have a great birthday and a great trip. you’ve earned it a thousand times over!
Mods — A comment of mine has not appeared. (I ought to have kept a copy. Drat.) This has happened a few times lately. Anything I should be doing differently?
Christy Hardin Smith @ 71
Happy Birthday CHS,
My 53rd is next week and Mrs. J and the three kids and dog go to restored CCC cabins(1930’s) on the Backbone of Iowa(its first state park) and burn fires, play games, and hike the wonderful fall scenery.
Peace to you and yours.
JLC
Al Sharpton up at Jena 6 hearing. “Jena’s all over the country”
he is ripping it up.
http://www.c-span.org/watch/cs.....p;Code=CS3
mpc @ 17
from Wired:
by Saint Clinton of CALEA.
This is simply outrageious. If there was ever a case for impeachment and this is not it, I’d love to know what it is. For anyone considering voting for Rudi “the Plunger” Giuliani, a victiom of 9/11 Turettes Syndrome, expect more of this if you help put him in office.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 71
Happy Birthday, Christy! Hope Mr. ReddHedd takes you someplace nice. Maybe you should stay offline for a few days…*g*
“To all places that one must go to observe aspirations of the moment”
–Arthur Rimbaud
Al Sharpton many want us to “shut up and accept that a two tier justice system exists”
sporkovat at 86 — This goes way, way back to the Reagan/Bush years and the weirdness of Total Information Awareness. Remember that golden oldie? Cheney resurrected it as a pet project. It’s the program that keeps on springing back to life as a defense black hole…
Peterr @ 34
mui @ 32
Thanks, mui. I signed.
Peterr @ 74 & CHS,
I know Mr. ReddHedd, and I suspect the big concern will be Mr. ReddHedd keeping up with CHS!! :-)
Oh. Happy Birthday(Blast from the 80s), Christy, I mean it.
Ooo….Obama blocks Spavokowsky (sp):
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo...../91544/024
Has it occurred to anyone else that this giant dragnet that the Bushies have put out might have something to do with the Democrat’s lack of spine in bucking them. How many “oppo-research” goodies turned up in all these phone calls and how many hints have been dropped to Dem/wavering Repub lawmakers about how they should not get too out front or things might start showing up in the hometown newspaper?
J Edgar did it all the time without having any computers at all. It is just too easy now…
behindthefall @ 83
behindthefall - We haven’t seen any of your comments get caught in moderation. It is possible that there is some technical glitch occurring but I don’t know what to tell you specifically. At this point I would suggest to first clear your browser’s cache and also be sure your comment has posted before you refresh the thread again. What browser and operating system are you using?
OK, we’ll try this again.
94,000 subpoenas! I would not have thought there were that many subpoenas in the country. Certainly not that many involving telephone records. Certainly not that many involving telephone records and investigations into, what did they say, “kidnapping and child-predator cases and counter-terrorism investigations”.
Are we supposed to believe that judges review and sign that many subpoenas?
Is this indicative of the workload that the FISA court would be asked to process if the mal-Administration actually used it?
If so, how would one board of judges, who have other things to do, presumably, physically go through so many requests?
Is the magnitude of the workload the reason that the Admin doesn’t want to use the FISA court?
pogo at 92 — Isn’t that the truth? *g*
Christy Hardin Smith @ 71
It won’t be the same but o.k. Will you be back for Sunday talking head?
“Public officials, not private businessmen, must ultimately be responsible for whether the legal judgments underlying authorized surveillance activities turn out to be right or wrong — legally or politically,” wrote Wayne Watts, AT&T’s senior executive vice president and general counsel.
Uhhh, Counselor, shouldn’t the Telecommunications Act be the law that you have memorized and adhere to, considering you are general counsel to a telecommunications
monopolycompany?And, let’s not forget about the huge telecommunications lobby. Surely you know of this monster, being the general counsel and all.
I think that just about puts the onus on the monopoly, both legally and politically.
Jus’ sayin’
Corpogovernment…………….
The day the “Constitution” was crucified!!
LS @ 94
Well if he gets on Chuck Schumer’s sh*t list, he can always come to the good progressive side of the party.
Er . . . can’t he?
Jena 6.
Rep. Mel Watt “lots of discussion about reconciliation, but not a lot of talk about justice” “Two justice standards being applied” all over this country.
They know that if they start digging into this issue. Hundreds of thousands of people who are in our prison systems are there based on the unfair application of the law.
If you are black and beat up white kid your ass is in jail maybe for life. If you out a CIA undercover agent whose job is focused on National Security you run free using the air waves to start another unnecessary war. Hello ARi Fleisher
OT–
There’s hope yet for Edwards.
Walter Shapiro in Salon today lists 10 factors that could permanently postpone the Hillary-for-president balloon drop:
OT but wanted to share, just rec’d a letter back from Virginia Foxx (R-NC)in reply to my email asking her to reconsider her SCHIP vote, she responded by calling the bill a “Democrat bill” - man I’m really pissed.
kdh22 @ 100
great. look forward to seeing you in court, counselor.
mui @ 64
Actually, that isn’t too far from the truth. We need to reach inside the comfort zones of our Democratic leaders and politely inform their social peers of their failings.
One way to do so would be for us to put on our suits (and ties for men), then print out appropriate FDL posts on specific issues and politely distribute them outside of big money fundraisers for targeted Democratic leaders. I must stress that being well dressed for this sort of thing is an absolute must.
In other words, we need to think creatively about how to speak the right language and adhere to the right cultural codes to reach inside the social safe zones of our leadership and politely educate the big money donors and other social peers about the issues that Pelosi, Reid, Feinstein are failing to properly address.
This strategy will get the full attention of our Democratic representatives really quickly - more quickly than any single phone call, fax, or letter to the editor (although those are all critical too).
To repeat: if we can teach (i) wealthy political donors and (ii) other social peers of politicians about specific problems with the Democratic leadership on particular issues, then we will pop the protective social bubble surrounding our leadership and magnify our impact significantly. One way to do so is to hand out materials at fundraisers. There are many others.
This could be game changing. Something we should start thinking about.
Atrios just linked to this mediamatters report of Limbaugh threatening journalists:
http://mediamatters.org/items/.....f=h_latest
If they can’t dig up dirt and journalists and their kids through public sources they can always make use of surveillance data.
Every politician/government official should be required to have a yearly psychological evalution. I’m tired of this administration’s undiagnosed schizophrenia, personality disorder, cognitive dissonance, sociopaths, schizoaffective etc.. (hey a new game match the illness with the government official). And their tactics of controlling the masses with fear and paranoia, aka the boogeyman. Eisenhower said it well:
If you want total security, go to prison. There you’re fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking… is freedom.”
behindthefall @ 97
According to the US Census Bureau, there are 3141 counties in the US. If you divide that into the 94,000 subpoenas, it comes to just over 9 per county per month. That doesn’t seem terribly out of line to me. Of course some counties will have none, but others will have many more. Sure, 94K a big number, but it’s a big country, too.
aye @ 107
how do you find out where the big money fund raisers are going to be?
Biodun @ 88
Just don’t go where Rimbaud went.
The Lurking Mod @ 96
The re-post showed up — longish lag and spinning Wheel of Doom — but it’s there. I’m on MS XP and Opera.
On the wire:Turkish forces fire 250 artillery shells into northern Iraq
Duhuk - Voices of Iraq
Tuesday , 16 /10 /2007 Time 5:55:36
Duhuk, Oct 14, (VOI)- Kurdistan borders forces said on Sunday Turkish troops fired over 250 artillery shells into areas inside Iraqi northern territories, inflicting material losses.
“The Turkish artillery fired, last night, over 250 artillery shells into villages within districts of al-Imadiyah and Zakho, Iraq’s Kurdistan region, setting large farms ablaze,” a source from Kurdistan borders forces told the independent news agency Voices of Iraq (VOI).
http://66.111.34.180/look/engl.....rSection=1
Where’s the outrage from this administration and calling Turkey a terrorist state and turkish military, a terrorist regime? Imagine if this was Iran.
“Do you trust George Bush and Dick Cheney not to misuse their authority or not overreach in their information grabs?”
No way………….
When asked what an appropriate punishment would have been for the Jena 6 Richard Cohen of the Southern Poverty Law Center stated that “a simple battery charge would have been sufficient”
The experts keep coming back to the disproportionate punishment for the black youth who beat up the white young man, and that it was the school who dealt with the white students who hung the nooses. The experts have determined that hanging the nooses would be determined to be a “hate crime” under those circumstances.
brendan @ 112:
707!
I’ve got a little experience with the political fundraisers. You’re going to have a tough time finding out where the high end ones are.
Kathleen @ 116
Doesn’t hate crime trump battery? Exactly why the correct charges were NOT brought on either the blacks or the whites.
selise @ 111
There are many ways. You can visit candidate websites. Or you can give a minimal donation to the candidate and give them your contact info. Or you can sign up to be on their emailing list.
And I should have been clearer in my original post that it is far far far better to attend a fundraiser than to stand outside. Why not pay the minimum donation necessary (if you can afford it) and then go inside and just be yourself and start mingling and casually (even nonchalantly) and politely handing out materials? Then the donors may say to themselves, “here’s another person of my social sphere, cares about this issue, maybe it is important, maybe I should talk with Pelosi (or whatever candidate) about it?” That is why it is critical that you wear your nicest appropriate clothes and look fantastic when you go to these things. It. matters.
Follow this approach and I predict your issue will get some attention from the candidate extremely quickly!
Tell us what we don’t know. Salon’s lame take on Frontline’s “Cheney’s Law” tonight:
My bold.
Jena 6
Rep. Bobby Scott asks about an investigation of a prosecutor who has “allegedly” prosecuted in a racially discriminatory way.
Oh yeah..it is amazing District Attorney Reed Walter has not removed himself. He may step down if he has listened to what is being discussed at this hearing. Disbarment
selise @ 111
That means being on a million mailing lists.
Co-Incidence Theory in effect:
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/....._1016.html
Jonathon Turley CAN NOT say that Bush/Cheney “welcomed” 9/11 to implement a plan they started working on as soon as they took office.
The reason Turley CAN NOT say this is because he’d never get invited back on MSNBC.
Dick Cheney scheduled 5 U. S. military anti-terror training drills on 9/11 — in a high risk environment! — and effectively ran interference for the hijackers.
Co-incidence or conspiracy?
Gross criminal incompetence or outright treason?
kdh22 @ 119
Because District Attorney Reed Walter has an accumulative record of prosecuting in a racially discriminatory way. Why he is hanging on I don’t know. The spotlight is on him and he is going to go down.
Better to leave now to spend more time with his family.
aye @ 120
i have not found any of these actions to be helpful in finding out when & where the big money events are. probably because i have never donated big money.
my limited experience is that people like pelosi are actively trying to hide from people like me. but if you have better luck, please post the info here… i bet there will be several people willing to play dress up.
selise @ 111
Wave a couple of large checks in the air, with the space next to “Pay to the order of” left blank. Don’t worry about finding them - they’ll find you.
“The First Baby Boomer Collects Social Security”Kathleen Casey-Kirschling was born New Year’s Day 1946, at one second past midnight, making her the first baby of a new generation.
….”It’s a great feeling to know that after all these years of working and seeing that taken out of your check that actually you’re getting it back,” she said.
Trouble is, 80 million others are right behind her. Casey-Kirschling is the raindrop that’s about to become a tidal wave.
http://www.abcnews.go.com/WN/L.....amp;page=1
Where are all those Gore haters who laughed about the “lock box,” and voted for the robber baron instead? Where will they be when they file for Social Security and find out their drinking buddy ran with the money to play war in Iraq and left IOU’s?
behindthefall @ 113
There are some known interaction problems between Opera and Wordpress - which is most likely what you are experiencing. Our tech gurus are aware of this issue, but be advised that the Opera browser doesn’t seem to play well with WordPress…and until there is a software upgrade, you might consider switching browsers.
mui @ 123
Then use a separate email account specifically for this purpose. If getting on too many email lists is the biggest problem, that is just fine with me because it is a problem that is easily addressed.
Biodun @ 121
West Wing? Darth doesn’t do West Wing. He prefers subterranean bunkers, wormholes and gutters, if we were to fictionalize.
New post upstairs
http://www.firedoglake.com/200.....s/#respond
selise @ 126
Maybe this is something that FDL can help address. Among the thousands of readers here each day are, I’m sure, a number of large money contributors. Perhaps we can start encouraging people to start posting about (and keeping lists of) specific fundraisers. Just a thought.
$89. per barrel of Oil. It is not even cold yet.
Fresh thread ready for the reading for anyone who wants one…
Well we now know that the Executives from these corporations are absolute liars. They denied giving over any records of domestic phone calls back in May 2006. In fact, they denied being approached by the Federal government AT ALL!
http://telephonyonline.com/reg.....ts_051706/
May 17, 2006 8:13 AM Verizon late Tuesday said reports that it handed over domestic telephone calling records to the National Security Agency are “simply false.”.. the telecom giant said reports that it was approached by the security agency and agreed to provide calling data regarding customers’ domestic phone calls are not true.
USA Today last week reported that AT&T, BellSouth and Verizon all provided massive amounts of data regarding domestic phone calls, including originating and terminating numbers and the length of calls, to the NSA for the purposes of data mining to detect calling patterns that could identify terrorist activity.
…AT&T would say nothing beyond its previous statement that it acted strictly within the law and would not comment further on national security matters.
“From the time of the 9/11 attacks until just four months ago, Verizon had three major businesses – its wireline phone business, its wireless company and its directory publishing business,” the Verizon statement read. “It also had its own Internet Service Provider and long-distance businesses. Contrary to the media reports, Verizon was not asked by NSA to provide, nor did Verizon provide, customer phone records from any of these businesses, or any call data from those records. None of these companies – wireless or wireline – provided customer records or call data.”
Verizon said it doesn’t not routinely keep records of local phone calls because most of its customers don’t pay for local measured service so there is no reason to collect such data. Reports that it is tracking that information and providing it to the NSA are false, the company said.
Now, in their Congressional testimony they admit these earlier statements were ALL LIES! So how can these people be trusted at all?
And they then attempted to BURY the story by lying to the media!
Two industry sources said Tuesday that the telephone companies told USA Today that its story was untrue prior to publication of that report last week. Both sources spoke on condition of anonymity.
Why are we giving them immunity from prosecution? These people are absolute bottom-feeders!
January 22, 2001
Dear Verizon:
I was wondering what you know about this
Rush Lindbaugh fellow. Also about
some people at the Wopo, NYTimes
and a bunch of others. Names to be
submitted later.
Thanks;
TurdB
To be clear…
The Administration resorted to illegal wiretaps on American Citizens (including their own “Able Danger” intelligence apparatus) BEFORE 9/11 for one reason, and for one reason only.
To ENABLE 9/11 to occur.
It was the Administration who ran interference and shut down our eyes and ears prior to 9/11. They did so at the same time as 180 Israel “Art Students” (Mossad Agents) were in the United States spying on high value US targets.
DOES IT GET ANY MORE OBVIOUS FOLKS?
They haven’t been tracking the activities of the “terrorists.”
They ARE the terrorists!
http://larouchepub.com/other/2....._updt.html
I know the FDLer’s do an enormous amount of work, I know this.
But I have made another effort here at FDL (which I did here at FDL days before the march in Jena, I was actually hammered because I brought up that FDL had been negligent on this critical topic) to talk about the hearing that is taking place right now as I type on the Jena 6 issue. The next post is about the Frost family and the SCHIP program but the focus on the Frost family has been huge.
I wonder how many mostly “white” progressive blogs are focused (even a tiny bit) on the Jena 6 hearing today?
This is the Sergeant Schultz defense.
BTW 720 requests over the time period mentioned would be 5 emergency requests a week. Who knew there were so many emergencies in the country?
Report from Iowa,
Tom Latham(r-Iowa) will vote to overide the preisidents veto according to Jacob Parker, Senior Legislative Aide to Latham.
I got a call back in spite of being in Braley’s district. Yea!
Thanks for getting us off our computers and on to the phone, CHS.
aye @ 133
it’s a great thought, and i don’t mean to be sounding so defeatist. i just really don’t know how to find out where they’re going to be. we made a big effort this summer and had a hard time of it. i called offices, checked websites… the best (only) sources i found were local newspaper reports - but they were usually after the fact.
that’s why i was kinda pushing on you… trying to find out if it’s really worked for you in practice… because if it has - i want to know your secrets!
Peterr @ 127
i’ll have to leave that to someone with large checks to wave. *g*
Jena 6 hearing
all of the panel agrees that the hanging of the nooses would qualify as a “hate crime”
behindthefall @ 97
These are “Administrative Subpoenas” (not FISA Warrants). They used this technique to avoid going to the FISA Court where most of their requests would have been denied for the very reasons that they were requesting purely domestic records. That’s because they first would issue a subpoena for all the records of calls of someone they had identified as a “terrorist associate” (Level 1-who might be abroad)…to US residents. THEN they would issue a a second set of subpoenas to obtain all the phone records of people whose names were on those originally obtained records (Level 2). So they were definitely interested in who these Level 2 people had called…even though the Level 2 people were only “associates” of “associates of terrorists”.
So for every one of those 94,000 subpoenas there may be hundreds of names of domestic callars…who made calls to other domestic recipients.
Verizon and these other companies may have no idea if the FBI and NSA requested the records of further individuals in a widening network. imagine if they found the name of a Democratic Congressman or Hollywood celebrity on their second- or third-level list of names.
And it might go a long ways to explain why so many people are on those “No Fly” lists.
Kathleen,
I think anytime a person insists that Jane and Christy write about their favored topics, there will be some pushback. jmho
kathleen — FYI, I’m not watching the hearings because I have been on and off the phone all morning trying to track down whip counts on both SCHIP and FISA. Which makes watching a hearing and reporting on it next to impossible. And, since I’m the person who does morning posts, it would pretty much fall to me to report on the bazillion things going on at once today, which clearly is less than adequate for your priority list.
I’ve been trying to push calls during the day on SCHIP and FISA because that is when staffers are in their offices — pushing calls in the evening doesn’t work for obvious reasons.
You are doing a good job of discussing the hearing in the comments. And we’ve been covering the Jena issue in cooperation with Color of Change, so I’m not certain where you are going with that other than you’d rather I cover the issue you want to talk about this morning than the ones I’m trying to talk about, yes?
Peterr @ 110
These are NOT search warrants…they are Administrative Subpoenas and are not reviewed by the courts prior to being issued.
And for each of these “subpoenas” they obtain a list of names that may number in the hundreds. Thy FBI/NSA must be interested in these people (predominantly domestic) and their connections to those “domestic recipients” originally called by the “foreign associates of terrorists”. Otherwise why ask for that record at all???
So multiply your 94,000 by an estimated 100. That would be 9,400,000 That’s how many individuals had their names/phone calls scrutinized by the intelligence apparatus.
And your small number inflates to 900 individuals/county/month who had some sort of personal information provided without a warrant!
imo, much of the mulit tasking happens because different people have different interests/priorities/knowledge and we bring that to the comments.
christy can’t do it all (although, i admit, she does sorta resemble a superhero *g*)
Christy Hardin Smith @ 147
Christy as I have said I know the FDL team does a great deal. But you know as well as I this is not just “my priority list” and there is no need to get snotty when I have a very solid point. This is not my issue, this hearing is taking place now, not tomorrow. You also know that FDL and other progressive blogs have been (I believe appropriately) questioned about the lack of focus on this issue (and yes Jane did respond to this after FDL was targeted) but it was basically ignored at FDL in the run up to the march in Jena.
egregious @ 146
This is not my favorite topic, but one that I am well aware needs more focus. This hearing is taking place right now not tomorrow, not next week, now.
selise @ 150
Hey I tried (again)
Christy Hardin Smith @ 147
I, too, appreciate your comments/updates on Jena 6 hearing, Kathleen.
Having been at the Lake for a while now, it is obvious that many, if not most, of us are passionate about and moved to act on many different liberal issues. However, a person can only give so much in any given day.
I look to the variety of posters and commenters here at the Lake to provide me with the necessary info (and opinion) on the issues that are important to me, but that I can’t be involved in daily.
I appreciate the diversity of the Lake and the passion written everyday.
Thanks all.
kdh22 @ 153
I appreciate the diversity of the Lake and the passion written everyday.
Thanks all.
*
Eff’n A! And, as always, bless you Christy.
Telcoms have been in bed with the government just about from the beginning of telcoms. I don’t understand retroactive immunity. Does this mean telcoms will have immunity from the time the bill passes? Unfortunate because the only hope of redress is for someone who knows he or she has been caught up in some sort of illegal sweep to sue the pants off the guilty. Most of us, if surveiled, won’t know it and would have no way to find out. We cannot expect the government (whether Dem or Repub I fear) to protect individual rights.
If you remember in 1984 Big Brother was watching. Many didn’t object on the theory that if you are not doing anything wrong you don’t mind surveilance. Lots of Americans feel the same way about our need for this defense in the war on terror. Too bad.
kathleen — Am sorry if you thought my response was snotty. But this from you:
I wonder how many mostly “white” progressive blogs are focused (even a tiny bit) on the Jena 6 hearing today?
that just the same as called us racist. Considering that we had someone set up on the spot to do reporting for us the day of the Jena6 march (who failed to come through with a dispatch until the next day, which was not Jane’s fault, and something that she has explained repeatedly), it’s an unfair aspersion. Perhaps you didn’t mean it to come out that way — but it did.
We have worked long and hard to develop relationships with bloggers of all colors and genders and sexual preferences precisely because their voices are not often given enough space to be heard. But we cannot do everything all the time for every issue that everyone wants to discuss. We are a blog not a wire service — asking us to cover an issue is one thing, but accusing us of not covering something under racial motivations is way, way off base. And I needed to say that because, frankly, Jane has worked her ass off to build a lot of bridges because they need to be built and its the right thing to do for all of us — not because it earns her some sort of brownie points. And, frankly, I’m quite simply exhausted — this has been a very long month already, I desperately need a break, and the last thing I needed this morning was to be accused of being a racist while I’m on and off the phone with any number of people on the Hill trying to get a whipcount on SCHIP and FISA and information about the Holt bill and about a billion other things.
Clearly I just need a break, and with that, I’m going to start packing for one.
How to get Senator Jay Rockefeller’s office to hang up on you
Just call (202) 224-6472 and ask the simple, courteous question:
Be courteous, now!
As well as to congressional offices (mostly R’s, to voice constructive criticism), recent calls in the second degree include those who were college roommates of such potential terrorists as former Homeland Security chief Tom Ridge, a former mayor of DC, and a president of Dreamworks, just to name a few. I don’t know anybody important myself. When Bush genealogy was in the news a few years ago, we were afraid my wife could be related to him through the CT Walker family. Apparently not so, thank God.
Kathleen @ 14
Hehehe. HAAAAHAAAHAAA! Oh boy, that was hilarious. Rockerfeller is the LEAD GUY who put the immunity shit into the Senate Bill! You think HE is going to do “oversight” and do the right thing? He has ALREADY done the unconstitutional, anti-American, anti-liberty, freedom-hating thing and pushed for immunity without even a slight hesitation!
Smells like there is a BIG EFFING story of telecomm complicity republican ass-lickery in violating customers right to privacy. anyone seen TPM lately?
.
Kathleen @ 33
And Tom Delay isn’t in prison yet!
Ed @ 95
It is a question we’ve considered.
Of course, with all the scandals among Republicans it appears the primary route to power for the Bushies (and perhaps going back to Reagan’s time) has been either blackmail or payoffs. Gingrich put a lot of money into campaigns and that made him Speaker. Now all the money is drying up and Repubs are evacuating Congress.
We’ll never know the full extent to which ‘the power’ has been used. But, it certainly puts the word “Privacy” into everyone’s mind and should cause us all to reconsider any and all government programs which involve data collection.
Diane @ 105
She might not like a ‘Democrat bill’, but you’re certainly being polite by writing a ’shit for brains’ Congresswoman, so that evens things up.
lambert strether @ 157
Too funny. Politicians don’t tend to get that kind of humor and it scares them (the poor things).
However, if this were Saturday Night Live…