I’d love to see an economic assessment of how petro-based fertilizers (vs organic methods) change productivity in commodity crops.

However, the question I pose regarding food without added chemicals is intended to call attention to the fact we pay more for foods without pesticides, herbicides, hormones, and antibiotics.

Thanks for raising the question and for this opportunity for clarification.

PS – Organic farmers assert that organic cultivation methods offer productivity equal to (or surpassing that) of Industrial Ag; as I’m not a farmer, I’m too ignorant to know what crops and cultivation methods have been compared in this manner.

Why do we have of go out of our way – and pay extra – for fresh food without added chemicals?

I haven’t heard anybody address this yet (and I should say that I am not a farmer or an agricultural expert), but this is not entirely the fault of the beltway and TFB.

In talking to coffee farmers in Central America who grow coffee organically, they say that their yields can be 5x smaller if they grow organically as compared to if they use conventional (i.e., petro fertilizer) methods. So in order for these farmers to make a living, they are forced to charge more per unit weight to make up for what they lose by harvesting a smaller volume.

One can obviously lay some blame on the powers that be for the fact that petro-based fertilizers are so cheap. Perhaps as the price of oil goes up, the financial equation will no longer benefit those who continue to use massive amounts of fertilizer.

SanderO @ 88

I can’t speak for people who choose to be ignorant. My experience with vegans is that were well informed about the ethics, environmental factors and economics and biology of food.

My experience with them is that they are pathetically ill-informed about the animals that suffer and die to produce the food that falsely describe as “cruelty-free.” How many vertebrate animals die per pound of organic rice, for example? A vegan simply doesn’t care.

I don’t presume to know the exact cause of BSE. I am not a scientist, but have read reports of this as a cause.

I am a scientist (Kirk isn’t). BSE is caused by a single protein changing its conformation. It can be transmitted in many different ways.

Vegetables from industrial farms are filled with chemical insecticides, fertilizers and so forth.

Vegetables from organic farms are filled with organic insecticides, organic fertilizers, and so forth. Animals die either way.

I’m not sure that you would want to be eating lots of these contaminants either.

That all depends on what the contaminants are. I’m not a big fan of false dichotomies, and as a biologist, I know that natural selection produces far more potent toxins than humans can.

Vegans don’t eat wild game. They don’t consume or use any animal products.

I know, that’s my point. They will choose foods whose production cruelly kills many animals per pound (organic rice) over a food (elk) whose harvesting involved a single, humane death for hundreds of pounds of food.

IOW, they don’t really care about the animals. They follow brain-dead rules, not any ethical principle.

You need to explain how animals die during the growing and production of rice, dude. I dont get this, so explain please.

I would say there is an explosion in white tailed deer that should be harvested, for the good of the population. But Elk? That is a pretty sensitive population that has very specific habitat needs, rapidly diminishing here in the west. I sometimes buy farmed elk and buffalo, grass fed and humanely treated, I know the farms where they come from.

Organic produce may have some contaminants, they are ubiquitious in our world, but they have been proven to have better vitamin and mineral content. To say nothing about the fact that organic produce tastes better.

But instead of doing something constructive with this appeal Kirk and Ronnie are more interested in their own fundraising. This is their pattern and style

Uhh – George – where are your data regarding my “own fundraising”?

Assertions are one thing – data are another.

George – if you suggest a penny comes to me from the research and writing I do for the Lake – please document your assertion.

Heck – please let Jane know. If the Lake is sending out paychecks for occasional contributors, someone left me off the payroll!

Save for review copies of books (three), I donate resources here – hundreds of hours of research and writing.

I’ve seen Ronnie Cummings speak once (I think) at a Californians for Pesticide Reform event. IIRC , he and I publicly disagreed in a Q and A about use of civil disobedience to stop GMO crops.

Seems like a nice enough fellow – I’ve never seen him sice – never had so much as a stamped envelope from OCA, much less a payment. I’ve no evidence the OCA even knows I exist.

Where is your proof to the contrary, George?

Your documentaion of the link you assert is – what?

We’re curious, George.

So – Organic George – having made your assertions, you now have a chance to document them.

Of course, if you can’t document these assertions – how can we believe any of your other assertions?

So George – where’s your proof? Where’s your evidence?

Congratulations on getting a slot to post here. I like the subject, as it’s uppermost in my mind when I shop weekends for (expensive) produce at our local markets.

One thing I’ve noticed in supermarkets is the price of FDA Organic going down, and this would seem to bear out optimists’ faith in the market. Can you comment on the reliability of the FDA Certified Organic label and what attempts have been made to dilute it?

This is yet another OCA outreach for righteous indignation that will allow them to say they represent more consumers, you the reader. They will use the additional “”one click internet feel gooders” to raise money, so they can raise more money.

I have know Ronnie Cummins for many years, since the Organic Trade Association first funded him to help fight the first proposed organic rule. I am also a frequent commenter on the OCA boards, where I take them to task on a regular basis.

Kirk could have told you about all the hard work that the organic community has done to wrench funds from the corporations to support organic farming research, help farmers transition from chemical to organic farming and find additional funding for the National Organic Program so they can fulfill their mission to promote and protect organics in the US.

But instead of doing something constructive with this appeal Kirk and Ronnie are more interested in their own fundraising. This is their pattern and style

Why Firedoglake contributes to allow this shell game group space on this site is beyond me

The New Colonialism: Patents

And, we are the colonized, just as much as those over the big waters.

our government appears more interested in punitive action. Our government is actively involved in trying to kill us. Which seems against their needs for contributions

and for those of you that still eat animals, realize you are the real guinea pigs. They feed the animals the “experimental” food additives. Not only is the flesh poisoned, but so is your whole planet.

use the scales of justice, weigh things against one another and make choices that the teevee didn’t make for you

I can’t speak for people who choose to be ignorant. My experience with vegans is that were well informed about the ethics, environmental factors and economics and biology of food.

My experience with them is that they are pathetically ill-informed about the animals that suffer and die to produce the food that falsely describe as “cruelty-free.” How many vertebrate animals die per pound of organic rice, for example? A vegan simply doesn’t care.

I don’t presume to know the exact cause of BSE. I am not a scientist, but have read reports of this as a cause.

I am a scientist (Kirk isn’t). BSE is caused by a single protein changing its conformation. It can be transmitted in many different ways.

Vegetables from industrial farms are filled with chemical insecticides, fertilizers and so forth.

Vegetables from organic farms are filled with organic insecticides, organic fertilizers, and so forth. Animals die either way.

I’m not sure that you would want to be eating lots of these contaminants either.

That all depends on what the contaminants are. I’m not a big fan of false dichotomies, and as a biologist, I know that natural selection produces far more potent toxins than humans can.

Vegans don’t eat wild game. They don’t consume or use any animal products.

I know, that’s my point. They will choose foods whose production cruelly kills many animals per pound (organic rice) over a food (elk) whose harvesting involved a single, humane death for hundreds of pounds of food.

IOW, they don’t really care about the animals. They follow brain-dead rules, not any ethical principle.

They taste the best then, and have a higher vitamin content. Besides, there is something very comforting about a nice delicata or acorn squash in the fall with some beautifull broccoli.

And the late spring asparagus season is always relished.

But I live in a multi climate state, Arizona, so I cherish picking a fresh tangerine off my dads tree in January.

Somehow waiting makes it that much better, too.