Senator Clinton gave an unexpected interview to Keith Olbermann on MSNBC’s Countdown last night. She had at least a couple of messages she wanted to deliver, and KO obliged with the right questions. And by appearing on Countdown, it seems she wanted us to hear those messages.
KO first asked whether the Senate Democrats would stand up for the Constitution on the FISA bill. She said she hoped so, without explaining what that means, so it seems she wasn’t there to talk about that.
KO asked about her economic proposals. Clinton walked methodically through her list for helping the middle class deal with economic insecurity: (1) restore fiscal responsibility; (2) focus on job creation, perhaps by using global warming and alternative energy development as the stimuli; (3) provide mechanisms to encourage folks to save and invest for their retirement (as a supplement, not a replacement for Social Security); (4) provide assistance to make college more affordable; and (5) enact universal health coverage.
Americans feel they’re “standing over a trap door,” she said, so it’s important to reduce this insecurity while holding down costs of all these areas. Although part of her standard campaign pitch, listing these elements so carefully seemed a set up for what followed.
KO next asked about efforts to overturn the President’s SCHIP veto, and the question moved to the right wing attacks on 12-year-old Graeme and his family. I think this is part of what Clinton was waiting for. She claimed the Republican opposition didn’t want to solve the problem of uninsured children, and they particularly did not want Americans to begin hearing real stories of real Americans — not just those in poverty, because they’re covered by Medicaid, but “families who work, who can’t afford the high insurance premiums of individual policies.” (paraphrasing)
Clinton then praised bipartisan efforts to pass the SCHIP bill, complimenting Republicans who voted for SCHIP and against their own President and Republican leadership. The leadership, she noted, had tried to score partisan, political points at the expense of families like Graeme’s.
I think Clinton was sending a strong message to the Progressive community about how she would approach the electorate in the general election. The message on economic security is a clear winner for Democrats. The message to Republicans outside the 30 percenters is that their leadership and President had misled them about SCHIP — and everything else. The President’s loyalists abandoned America’s children and then misused children in a mean-spirited manner. But despite all the right wing propaganda, she — the supposedly hated liberal who had been pilloried by the right for years — had worked with reasonable Republicans on a bipartisan solution for providing health care to America’s children. And she could do it across the board. That’s one powerful message.
Moreover, Hillary took on the WH’s anti-SCHIP argument that SCHIP should be limited to the poorest children. No, this is part of a broader policy to provide financial security for the middle class. In other words, it’s okay for America to have government sponsored programs to help the middle class get affordable health care . . . or secure retirements or college for their kids, and so on. It’s okay to use government to protect the middle class from that “trap door” that undermines their financial security.
Putting Iraq aside (there were no questions on it), I think that economic message can win the election and sweep more (and better) Democrats into Congress, provided . . .
. . . provided Bush/Cheney don’t start a war with Iran. On this point, KO gave the Senator something else she wanted — another opportunity to explain her vote — to us — for the Kyl-Lieberman amendment encouraging the President to designate Iran’s Revolutionary Guard as a terrorist organization. She did not back down. Her standard response, perhaps more carefully crafted and expressed this time, is that it was a misunderstanding to claim she was authorizing war; instead, she voted to provide additional leverage, via possible sanctions, to encourage/strengthen negotiations with the Iranians.
Her answer might be more defensible if the President were Bill or Hillary Clinton, but not when the President is Cheney/Bush. Trusting these two to act responsibly is the same mistake she made on the Iraq vote, and explaining it more eloquently does not alter its fundamental risks as long as Bush/Cheney remain in office.
We got the messages. Here’s my own response: Good framing on SCHIP and economic security; good strategy in calling the non-30 percenters to responsible government. But the next time Democrats want to send a serious message to Iran, don’t allow Bush/Cheney to translate it for the Iranians. And one more thing: You’re focused on the wrong threat.
The Bush/Cheney regime’s lawlessness and fear-based authoritarianism present a far greater threat to American freedoms and values than the Revolutionary Guard could ever dream of becoming. That’s why you should have answered the FISA question and many others. It’s essential you let the country know you understand the greater danger and are just as concerned as we are.
Hillary also thinks Al Gore deserves the Nobel Peace Prize. Yep.
The interview transcript is now available at MSNBC, and Logan Murphy at C&L has the video clip.



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Hey
We saw that with Hillary and Olbermann last night.
Tre’
caw caw
CAW CAW!!!
I agree totally with your perspective on her Iran/Kyl-Lieberman vote. She has fallen into the exact same trap she has claimed she fell for with her AUMF vote on Iraq.
In both instances, she has claimed she is/was only voting for diplomatic actions, not for war.
Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.
Otherwise, I think she presented a rational and reasonable start on a domestic policy.
Yep.
HRC is a conservative operative.
I dont think dynasties are good for our country and I dont want a President that has purchased the office.
I don’t usually go in for this zed stuff but when I read the post I figured why not!
Hillary could do a good job if she were elected and if she’s the nominee I would support her but I don’t see the potential for the bold action needed to fully repudiate the bush* regime.
Of course a box of rocks could do a better job than bush*.
“Her answer might be more defensible if the President were Bill or Hillary Clinton, but not when the President is Cheney/Bush. Trusting these two to act responsibly is the same mistake she made on the Iraq vote, and explaining it more eloquently does not alter its fundamental risks as long as Bush/Cheney remain in office.”
Yep. And I believe Scarecrow wrote an entire article recently on her poor judgment in being willing to again “trust Bush”.
I’m not at all impressed by her interview. It’s more cotton candy. Full of fluff, but no substance. She might as well come out and “seriously” announce that she opposes slavery. Wow! What a fighter that Hillary is!!!
And, as for helping out the economy…..will she continue to play “female coy” and refuse to answer direct questions on whether she opposes NAFTA??? I imagine so.
Which is why ole Hillary is what she is: G&S Hillary. Gutless and Spineless. When G&S Hillary speaks; I simply hurl.
But, as usual, I do enjoy your articles Scarecrow!
Ghostman
I’ll stick with more and better democrats
She did not impress me…anyone remember Frank Rich’s column a few weeks ago…is Hillary the New Al Gore? Given every opportunity last night to be straightforward, honest, and bold, we got another “safe” candidate…if anything did anything to reinforce that she will the status quo…last night was it…she will lose to any Republican candidate
Ghostman – I’m not sure I but the notion of “gutless.” I think it has taken a tremendous amount of courage for her to hang in there, to put herself out in the public eye knowing that the right wing would viciously attack her every single day. And she knows it’s going to be even worse in the next year and as long as she’s in office. It would frighten off most. That’s a courage that needs to be acknowledged.
But it’s also taught her to be cautious, we might say overly so, and so it’s hard to get her to move when real courage demands it. We will have to help lead this candidate, to make what must be done safer.
One more Republican bites the dust:
From thinkprogress—
What a shame.
egregious @ 14
eg -
I seem to remember reading/hearing somewhere that several of those who had said they were pulling out were now putting themselves back in.
Did you happen to catch anything on that?
“I think it has taken a tremendous amount of courage for her to hang in there, to put herself out in the public eye knowing that the right wing would viciously attack her every single day”
Oh, I disagree, good Scarecrow. I think she’s had everything handed to her on a silver platter. She married smart and used her husband’s coat-tails for every achievement she’s ever laid claim to.
I don’t think our “help” will do any good. I think she is what she is. She’ll play the Progressives just like Bush plays the evangelicals. She’ll dole out some breadcrumbs to keep us happy. And then……slide a knife in our back at every opportunity.
So……good Scarecrow, on this, reasonable minds differ! But please keep writing. Your thoughts are always good for me to read.
Ghostman
That’s all the info I have Waccamaw. Will try to chase this down.
Hi Scarecrow, Medicaid (welfare)covers those in poverty (keeps them there too). Medicare is for people 65 and over.
[Mod: Fixed, and thank you]
Hillary trying to steal some thunder from Al Gore’s big moment today? Ya think? He’s no Hillary fan.
I’m doin’ a quick fly-by from the tall timber, so this, notepadded offline because of dinosaur slo-dialup may seem a bit off the Hillary topic, but definitely on-topic for Gore’s shining day:
Prairie’s Fantasie:
Flush with the force of winning the Nobel Peace Prize, Al Gore invites John Edwards and Barack Obama to the Tennessee ranch for a mini leadership summit.
Gentlemen, says Gore, I am prepared to announce my endorsement for 2008. John you embody one of the two characteristics all Americans will need most for the upcoming years: personal courage. Your life arc with Elizabeth is a powerful model for triumphing over life’s greatest adversities. And Barack, you embody the other characteristic the American people will need: hope. For better times and better ways of living together.
It’s a tough decision, guys, so I’ll ask you. Are you prepared to think outside the box? I think you are. It’s up to you if you’ll accept my endorsement:
Edwards/Obama 2008.
Scarecrow!
I was really puzzled by KO giving her all that air time. Is he conceding the nomination to her and just doing the best he can to make sure she is supported in the general election?
It will be a sad day if she gets the nomination but I’ll hold my nose and support her. The important thing in that case will be to get rid of as many bush/blue dogs as possible over the course of her term so that there is at least one slightly progressive branch of govt.
I hope Obama, Edwards, et. al., hammer her on the Iran vote. How can she get away with that?
She immediately tried to mitigate it by signing on to the Webb’s Iran bill and getting her picture snapped with Webb.
If I have to vote for her in the general, I’ll be ill.
hackworth @ 18
Yep. I’ll fix.
Scarecrow, would you say the interview was either coded or nuanced?
Anyone else also have the thought that this “unexpected” KO interview was due to some advance notice that Gore was going to win the Nobel? This win will certainly dominate the progressive blogs for a day or two, and she comes out looking proactive rather than defensively saying “congrats, but I’m the one running now” in some press release.
That all being said, I give her some props — when I squinted a little, I could imagine myself watching a President. Of course, now that the current chuckleheads have set the competency bar as low as they have, that’s perhaps not a stretch!
On HRC’s comment about saving to supplement Social Security: Fine advise, unless you have more month left at the end of the money! Ya think that might be why people feel like they are “over a trap door”?
Ghostman @ 16
I’m with scarecrow on this one. Hillary didn’t have to run for the Senate. She didn’t have to run for president. She chose to do both, and has had to do the work of a candidate to get elected to the Senate and make a credible run for the presidential nomination.
Did she have some advantages as a candidate? Sure. But she still has to go out every day and do the work, knowing that the Right Winng Wurlizer is geared up for her every day as well.
I don’t agree with her on some of her policy positions — especially with regard to Iraq and Iran! — but I don’t think she’s had everything handed to her.
Funny no questions were asked on Iraq. I read somewhere yesterday (don’t ask–I was all over) that the Gop candidates, during their debate the other night, never once said Bush’s name. Now since they are all for war & wiretap, why would they not use their master’s name?
NCBlueneck @ 25
Hear! Hear!
HRC has no concept of ‘middle class’. NONE. ZERO. ZIPPO.
Just a note:
Medicare covers Americans over 65 and those on Social Security disability. It’s a federal program. If you are poor you may also qualify for Medicaid to cover expenses Medicare does not cover, depending on your state regs.
Medicaid covers the poor, near-poor and maternity care for working poor. While states receive federal money for ‘caid each state administers its own Medicaid program.
Do you suppose HRC will keep all those signing statements to use as needed?
>>why would they not use their master’s name?
Remember the response to Number 6’s (”The Prisoner”) question, “Who is number 1?”
Peterr @ 26
she’s clearly ambitious, and she’s willing, even happy, to do all the work necessary to get where she wants to go, I think.
Oops, Hackwoth at 18. You type faster than I do. Sorry to repeat.
Elliott @ 23
Not sure what that means. I think KO is extremely attuned to what needs to be said at each political moment; he chose questions his audience wants asked, and her willingness to be interviewed by KO, knowing what he was likely to do, seemed a sign that she too wanted to address the concerns of those who routinely watch KO. I don’t think it was scripted; more like a shared understanding.
egregious @ 14
Yep, that’s REALLY too bad(sniff).
Hillary’s support of corporate interests over middle class interests is well known. I need to see her making some attempt to reduce corporate interests before I’ll believe she’ll make a difference to the middle class.
Universal health coverage is one of those things. That guarantees profits for insurance companies for denying claims.
According to the Strib, MN’s Ramstad’s being heavily pressured by Congressional MINORITY leadership to reconsider his retirement. I’d imagine others are as well. The argument, having to spend money in sure-win districts when they’re in dire straits on money and a million dollars [gee-now that’s real money…imagine when they consider the frickin’ trillion dollar bills they’ve givin us the last 7 years!] could make all the difference in holding seats.
Let’s get out the thumb-finger violins folks and have a pity party for the poor ol’ Repervs.
BWAAHAAAAAHHHAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAA.
I don’t think Gore will run; however, Gore’s winning the Nobel Peace Prize may well impact the Democatic nomination proces.
I think his endorsement of a candidate other that Hillary could change the race. This would seem to be particularly so if that candidate was Obama.
While I completely agree with the analysis of her commentary. While I have been deeply disappointed in her position on Kyle-Lieberman and on her initial voting for the Iraq war, I do think that sexism is part of what she is fighting with her more hawkish stance. I think Margaret Thatcher had the same problem at times. I think Obama has the same issue. How do you interact in a “white male priviledge” world that worships power and control by acting out your stereo types.
I don’t want to make excuses for her, and she is not my first choice, but my gut doesn’t believe that she and Bill Clinton in the white house will be “hawkish”, nor do I believe that she will forfeit middle class comforts for corporate american gains.
I wish we would stop the infighting. The truth is that I would take any one of the leading democratic contenders. All of them are intelligent, well read, thoughtful, innovative and strong. I will vote my conscience, and I think it’s okay to do comparison’s but sometimes we are arguing about nuances instead of facts.
I like the way Bill Clinton handled Kosovo. I think that Bill was on it in regard to terrorism. I don’t agree with the republican analysis that Bill was “soft” but as a woman, Hillary has a double whammy to fight. She has to prove that she is not soft enough to be a “danger” which is what the right wing wants us to believe. And when it comes down to the last two contenders, sound bites that make her sound weak would end the battle for president.
I take her hawkish positions with a grain of salt.
It’d be nice if our system were different but the truth is that it’s fed by corporate and special interest money. Someday, hopefully this will change for the better.
For the life of me, I can’t understand why an otherwise intelligent person like HRC can’t see that giving Bush/Cheney even slightest opening for pre-emptive war with Iran is a bad idea. One need only look at the bills sponsors to figure out that this was clearly drafted for one purpose only.
She is unacceptable. Period. She REMAINS in favor of the war in Iraq (merely thinking it handled badly…NO, it was WRONG and ILLEGAL. PERIOD). Her idea of “universal healthcare” is to enact into law profits for insurance companies on the taxpayer dime. Her “universal healthcare” plan is to REQUIRE all Americans to BUY private health insurance so that ALL Americans can benefit from having treatments denied, drugs denied, and have doctors selected for them, all while insurance company CEOs and shareholders make freaking guaranteed taxpayer-funded profits up the ying-yang.
She is unacceptable.
She will not disavow a single “unitary” executive power. She will embrace Bush’s illegal and unconstitutional powers, fighting tooth and nail to not give up a single one of them.
She is vile and unacceptable.
NCBlueneck @ 25
Good point. This is the problem with all Republican policy. A tax cut or a medical savings account or a tax credit doesn’t do anyone any good if they have to spend all their money just to survive. A lot of people are in that boat with credit card debt to boot. There’s no money for a retirement account or a medical savings account until the credit card debt gets paid off. When will it be paid off? Never.
If Hillary or other candidates will institute work programs, especially those in the alternative energy sector, that’s what will help to fix our economy.
kdh22 @ 28
She has a hell of a lot more knowledge of the concept than Little Boots could ever have. My understanding is that her upbringing in Illinois was classic, post-war middle class. Which means to me that she would have an understanding of what CAN be. And Arkansas is not exactly a hot bed of rich kid privilege (outside of maybe some folks in Benton).
I am not comfortable with the DLC. Nor anyone connected to it.
Scarecrow @ 34
Sorry I wasn’t clear, but your answer explained to me what I wanted to know, thank you. :)
Tom @ 40
The answer comes to us via Occam’s Razor. She voted for that vile bill because she supports war with Iran just as much as she approved and still approves of the war with Iraq. What country is she NOT in favor of going to war with?
Sen. Clinton will need to be tough, there’s a new Cold War on and Condi and Gates were just seen publicly shitting their pants in the face of a stern and rebuking Vladimir Putin.
Well, we should be able to take Russia in a cakewalk anyhow…….Throw in an invasion of Turkey too…
-GSD
Katie Jensen @ 39
Great Comment and I agree with every word. I have noticed over these last few months that there has been sort of a building hate for Hillary. I am an Edwards supporter but I will vote for Hillary if she is the nominee with confidence. She is being treated as if she is the worst thing since Bush and it’s simply not true. We could cause ourselves some very real problems if we continue this message since they righties will use our words against us. Let’s not do that, please. We may regret it.
She did note, that this was a non-binding resolution and that she stood by her previous statement that Bush has no authorization to go to war with Iran without going to Congress.
I think it worth mentioning, that she stated very emphatically that, prior to assuming office, she would send capable statesmen around the world to explain that “cowboy diplomacy” was over and last six years have been an aberration of American foreign policy.
Tom @ 40
Her vote on Kyl-Lieberman was indefensibly stupid. If that’s an example of her foreign policy judgment, it is most unfortunate. Once again, she was trying to “look tough” on terrorism and did not see past the end of her nose.
Clinton is just a flawed individual — in many ways a really wicked one — but a skilled politician. What she is today is not what she will necessarily be tomorrow. We’re not yet her privileged constituency; when we force her to acknowledge us as such with our money and with allied legislators, things will change, but only then.
O/T, I know, but can someone give me the quick explanation of the basics of comment moderation here? The reason I ask is I wrote something yesterday — fairly inoffensive, I thought (and will repeat if that helps), and not out of line with general community sentiment on the topic, though my comment did include a five-letter acronym that begins with A and ends with C, and the I and A in the middle, on either side of the P, got replaced by asterisks — which struck me as interesting…
See, *that* comment didn’t get moderated…
Oh jeezus…seeing Clinton’s face and Gore’s on the previous post…will these names ever go away?!? My entire adult and voting life has been ruled by these same names…
These are prominent “Dem leaders” that for the last 20 years have led the Dem Party into the ditch. They’ve turned the Party into just another Money Party, bringing virtually no change to the status-quo, Conglomerate Rule in this country. Terry MacAuliffe, who single-handedly dismantled the Dem Party operations in many states (literally) is now running Hillary’s campaign!! Goddamn, I thought Howard Dean was able to kick his kind to the curb for good, but no….leave it to a Clinton to offer him perhaps even a more powerful position. He’s getting a job promotion for destroying the Democratic Party.
And Gore is doing 100 times more for the environment now than when he was an elected official. Please Al, stay where you are! You getting so much accomplished. The Earth needs you to keep doing what you’re doing.
We need new ideas and new blood in DeeCee. Now.
next topic, this one is dug in
Praedor Atrebates @ 41
She is vile and unacceptable. Let’s act on that recognition in the primaries. She’ll be relatively less vile and more acceptable, however, in November 2008.
brendan @ 51
so true.
Prairie Sunshine @ 37
That business about pressure from thug leadership was part of my semi-memory bank also.
Today’s poll figures will not be a Wake-Up to the DNC nor to the Congressional Democrats, so what the hell to do?
68% have as much distaste for the Democratic Congress as they do for Bush/Cheney.
A Democratic Presidency has an 13 point lead over a Republican, but when Hillary is the Democratic candidate the lead is cut to 3 points. That figure will get lower and lower until it disappears: Hillary Clinton is unelectable.
The tiny number of vote-switchers, and Democratic Party supporters, will turn out to vote in a landslide for a candidate whom they hear say he/she:
1. will immediately disengage from Iraq;
2. will institute immediately a universal healthcare system (single payer, probably, but possibly on the Dutch and German systems);
3. will actually engage in stopping the flood across the Mexican/US border.
That candidate will probably touch on the Fascist applications of the present Administration.
That candidate will probably touch on the presently misused word “lobbying” which really means “bribery”.
That candidate will probably touch on the fact that a small percentage of the US population has a great deal too much power and influence and will address reducing that power and influence.
The voters are probably subconsciously skittish about another damned dynastic presidency too.
We are probably going to be stuck with H Clinton as the Candidate. Both Giuliani and Romney will beat her!
As a female…I cannot forget that we have NEVER had a female president or Vice President and that we have NEVER had an african american president. I am an advocate for ending both sexism and racism in our country and I am just tired of the attacks on her. She is fighting a stereo type as is Obama. White priviledge holders need to recognize their part in this.
White folks have all benefitted from slavery and men have benefitted from sexism. Period.
People who say any of the top three are “unacceptable” just aren’t paying attention to facts. Instead they are being emotional and hateful. I would take any one of the top three. And on that note I wish the in fighting would stop. Every attack we make at any one of the top three could hurt our ability to defeat the republican regime later.
Democrats need to be more mature and smart about this. Don’t let racism or sexism talk for you. Pay attention to the facts. Hillary is no threat. She’s not going to attack Iran. The current thinking (though I disagree) is putting an election win first over punishing Bush. My worst fear for Hillary would be that she stands up against Bush on the military issues, that she looks soft, and that then Bush engineers or ignores warning or allows a terrorist attack or that we go to war with Iran. Anyone of these issues could seriously prevent a democrat who takes a less pro military stand in a very dangerous place.
I am not afraid of terrorism, in this regard. I am afraid of Bush/Cheney and how far they will go to prevent relinquishing their power. They are trying to avoid jail, not just make money.
Praedor Atrebates @ 46
Really? There is no evidence that Hillary Clinton is in favor of starting another war with anyone. Nor is it clear that, if she had been President, she would have invaded Iraq.
When I begin to feel sorry for all the work Senators seeking the presidency have to do I bring myself back to earth. I think about the pay. $165,000 per year for a three to four day work week. A month off in the summer. Not to mention Christmas and all the recesses. Oh… and the perks. Oh yes, our senators are underpaid and overworked alright. And I don’t want to forget the cocktail parties and lobbyists who finance our Congress person’s campaign. Very rough life.
maunga @ 59
I don’t think Giuliani or Romney can beat her. Huckabee could beat her, but the Rs are not smart enough to nominate him.
pma @ 49
Yes, I thought that was a very helpful statement.
Tom @ 40
Tom, she is bought-and-paid-for by te promoters of attacking Iran!!!
Twain @ 48
First, my absolute rejection of Hillary has nothing to do with her sex. I couldn’t care less whether the Prez candidate is male/female, black/white/red, whatever. Couldn’t give a shit. I DO care that she is corporate America’s representative and always has been. She IS Wal-mart and its labor practices. She IS health insurance companies and the HMOs that she has single-handedly gone out of her way to promote. She is unacceptable and if she is the Dem nominee I absolutely will NOT vote for her. That is non-negotiable and granite solid. I will not vote for Hillary. If it is between Hillary, Guiliani/Romney, and Nader then I WILL vote for Nader. In fact, the last name above can be filled by virtually ANYONE who is not a libertarian or religious wacko and that person will get my vote. The only other option is my abstention from the Presidential vote.
I will NOT vote for the lessor evil on this, particularly when the lessor evil is only so very slightly less evil. No more corporatocracy, no more NAFTA, CAFTA, SAFTA, no more belligerent foreign policy, no more SHIT.
So, I’ll throw out my original line again:
“In related news, Israel/[moderated to A*P*C] would prefer we not talk about the Armenian genocide because Turkey is, at the moment, being friendly with them, and apparently, denying genocide is *bad* when done about Jews and *fine* when done about Armenians. Maybe ‘Never again’ should have an asterisk.”
I’m not so naive I don’t realize that some people go searching for bad-sounding comments in the blogs of people they disagree with, but is the asterisks-to-hinder-quick-searches the way we prevent that? ;-)
I think Gore excitement crashed dKos
Oklahoma kiddo @ 62
The poor dears are so overworked they can’t even sleep with their wives. They are reduced to toe-tapping at airports on layovers……hence the term layover.
-GSD
What’s the general consensus here…regardless of who you support and why, do you feel Obama or Edwards would beat the Repube nominee? Are they flawed candidates that might lose in the general?
I dislike it intensely when some tells me they will or will not vote for this person or that individual on the basis of their gender.
lina @ 50
It wasn’t “stupid”. She’s the Senator from New York. Her base of power, and her chief constituency, through their money and influence, are — to use a euphemism — the “liberal hawk” establishment. The importance of that consituency has to be reduced in her calculations. She’s just a politician; there’s nothing permanent about her “convictions”; we have to make ours hers, and we won’t do it with our looks or prose style.
Praedor Atrebates @ 66
agree with your analysis of Hil. But unlike you, I will vote for the lesser of two evils, because it is not as bad as winding up with the greater of two evils.
i think i’ve got a couple of problems with her economic plan. hoping people who know more can set me straight.
1) restore fiscal responsibility – how much is she going to cut from the “defense” budget? has she show any inclination to make any cuts at all? how can we be fiscally responsible w/o attacking this problem?
2) the “save and invest for retirement” plan – this is a BIG problem for me. as i understand this, it is to take 20 – 25 billion dollars a year and put it into ira/401k type retirement accounts. this is just privatization by another name. it’s nuts. if her buget has an extra $25 billion a year floating around for retiree support – it should go into supporting social security and/or medicare. looks to me like a big fat pay off to her wall street donors who will make lots of fees when people “invest”
bonkers @ 70
The Republicans are completely demoralized. Only Hillary (and the reenergized Clinton-hating cottage industry) will bring these people back to the polls. Count on it. She’s not worth it.
brendan @ 51
That’s the truth. Sure feels good, though to listen to somebody that can think and speak in coherent sentences. Listening to Bush these past years makes people very uneasy.
Hi Scarecrow. Two other responses caught my ear.
She is quite proud of her vote on the MoveOn condemnation. She voted instead for the other bill, which condemned anyone who criticized the military etc.
But she was suspiciously unresponsive when asked about FISA matters: “We will have to sit down together and decide what is best for all concerned” (or something like that).
This is very important because her advisor, Jamie Gorelick, who Glenn Greenwald indicates is the leading candidate for Attorney General under Hiliary, is leading the charge for retroactive immunity for the telcos.
Good morning all.
OT, but of interest. Father Dennis Dease of the University of St. Thomas yesterday announced:
My apologies if this is old news. It remains to be seen, I guess, what will happen to the chastened professor who exhibited the temerity to invite Tutu in the first place.
Twain @ 48
Hear hear. HRC’s not my first choice, but I think these two posts point out some important considerations. And would I take her over Bush or any other Republican minion? In a fucking heartbeat.
Scarecrow @ 61
Neither is there evidence that she is not intersted in attacking Iran, given this vote; it’s prudent to assume the worst. She is, however, unarguably in favor of creating the conditions that make it easier for Bush and Cheney to start that war, and I’ll betcha some of her money men are, too, if I’m to believe Wesley Clark.
Your second sentence is pointless speculation: if she had been President…. That fond thought is nothing in face of her actual vote for AUMF.
A very weak defense, Scarecrow.
She consistently does very well in all these interviews, coming across as clear, sober and good-humored. I’m no fan, but you have to acknowledge how deftly she answers questions and how on top of the issues she always is.
As for those folks who would vote for someone else if she gets the nomination, I’m curious whom you would vote for. Now, as a Nader voter in 2000, I have a little karma to get back, but not much, because my vote in NYC doesn’t count anyway. I cannot see anyone plausibly in the race or who would represent a useful protest vote.
brendan @ 72
I believe there’s nothing permanent about her convictions, but saying on Tuesday that your vote on AUMF in 2002 was not meant to give Bush/Cheney a blank check for war; then, saying Thursday that your vote on Kyl-Lieberman was not meant to give BushCheney a blank check for war, seems to be a little “shortsighted.” (if you don’t like the term stupid).
Chris @ 52
There are trigger words and phrases, includinng acronyms, that trip the moderation filter. Besides some of the usual suspects, this would include the very lobby you referenced, because of past flame wars regarding same. Discussion of it isn’t verboten, but the flaming part is, hence the mod filter ;-).
It does sometimes seem to be a weird filter — it will sometimes trip on an instance of an acronym within a perfectly OK word, which you’d think a filter could be reset to allow thru, but I don’t know what plugin (or even if it is a normal plugin) is being used here.
Most of the time the filtered comment gets passed thru with asterisks to get past the filters. If it seems to be hanging about you can usually ask the mods (just comment) to check the mod queue…
jayackroyd @ 81
I think even more than usual will just stay at home, thus letting in Romney/Giuliani.
Bilbo @ 78
I’d also like to see them issue an apology for having Coulter over previously in light of her comments…No?
I see candidates Edwards, Richardson, Dodd, and Kucinich answer hard questions on Middle East policy. I’d sure like to hear presidential candidate Clinton do the same.
Chris @ 67
Close.
FDL gets innundated with spam, including some vicious hateful stuff that ought never to see the light of day. There are some backstage filters that grab what looks to be spam, and then human moderators go through (as quickly as possible) to delete the mess and free up those comments — like yours — that get caught.
The acronymn you used is part of the filter, put there because of some particularly nasty, literally Nazi stuff that came through a while back.
The asterisks are not designed to prevent searches, but to let your comment — and the comments of those who quote your comment — get through the filters without help from the mods.
wigwam @ 77
She voted for the flag burning amendment!!
Geez Lou-eez.
If the election were held today, it would apparently be Hilary Clinton vs. Rudolph Guiliani. Based on what I’m seeing here, we would end up with Rudy for 4-8 years.
Oh well, I’ve lived with the results of the divided party trick more often than not. That’s what gave us Nixon over Humphrey, possibly Reagan over Carter, and Bush over Gore. I supposed many remain proud that the refused to vote for Humphrey when McCarthy lost, or Carter when Kennedy didn’t oust him, or Nader over Gore.
maunga @ 84
I should hope that fear and loathing of the latter would get people off their butts to vote. We really can’t take a continuation of Bush’s regime until the Republican party reforms itself.
Katie Jensen @ 60
i agree with most of what you wrote – but not this. i am not “in” the same group as presidential contenders. my admiration or contempt for them has nothing to do with in fighting.
imo, infighting is when you and i show contempt for eachother. and that i have every wish to avoid. :)
And keep in mind perhaps, that Senator Clinton derives much of her campaign money from the same interests as does Joe Lieberman.
lina @ 75
I’m not sure the conventional wisdom is correct on this. A recent poll showed that the “negatives” = people who strongly opposed a candidate — were actually lower for Hillary than for each of the Republican candidates. Second, her “negatives” have been falling; she seems able to turn people around if she presents herself instead of having Fox news define her. And in every debate, she’s done well and gained more support. Her lead over the others has widened as she’s gotten more exposure.
At some point, the Hillary haters need to acknowledge some basic facts which strongly suggest she could be a formidable candidate. You don’t have to support her or approve of what she proposes or believes, but arguing that she will be easily defeated does not appear to be consistent with the evidence so far.
“We represent management in all forms of state and federal litigation involving claims under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the Age Discrimination in Employment Act, the American with Disabilities Act, and the Family and Medical Leave Act. We practice before governmental agencies, including, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, the National Labor Relations Board, the Office of Federal Contract Compliance Programs, the Mine and Safety Health Administration, the Occupational Safety and Health Administration and other Department of Labor agencies. We also advise clients on union avoidance, organizing campaigns and union representation elections.”
http://www.roselawfirm.com/practice/management.asp
Old news, you say? Here’s how the tiger doesn’t change her stripes:
“It is deeply troubling, but, perhaps, very revealing, when a Democratic candidate for the Presidency of the United States seeks the support of one of the most important industrial labor unions in the nation but refuses to answer questions from the rank and file union members.
That’s what happened today when U.S. Senator Hillary Clinton addressed the United Steelworkers conference in Cleveland. Not only did she not participate in the question-and-answer portion of the program to which all of the Presidential candidates had agreed, but she also completely ignored one of the major issues that has forced millions of union workers and others into unemployment: the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA).”
http://www.democrats.org/page/community/tag/NAFTA
Still workin’ for the man!
How she is considered progressive speaks to the power of wishful thinking.
“Real change starts with being honest — the system in Washington is rigged and our government is broken. It’s rigged by greedy corporate powers to protect corporate profits. It’s rigged by the very wealthy to ensure they become even wealthier. At the end of the day, it’s rigged by all those who benefit from the established order of things. For them, more of the same means more money and more power. They’ll do anything they can to keep things just the way they are — not for the country, but for themselves. [The system is] controlled by big corporations, the lobbyists they hire to protect their bottom line and the politicians who curry their favor and carry their water. And it’s perpetuated by a media that too often fawns over the establishment, but fails to seriously cover the challenges we face or the solutions being proposed. This is the game of American politics and in this game, the interests of regular Americans don’t stand a chance.”
http://seven.pairlist.net/pipe…..00080.html
(Bolding mine)
Now that’s progressive! It’s just what we have been saying in the progressive blogosphere for five years! And we’ve got a viable candidate saying it!
Maybe I’m too simple-minded, or not ‘realisitic’ enough, but for me, this is a no-brainer choice.
“We cannot replace a group of corporate Republicans with a group of corporate Democrats, just swapping the Washington insiders of one party for the Washington
insiders of the other.”
John Edwards ‘08
pma @ 89
Dems have a history of pouting and shooting themselves in the foot – if we do it this time, we are endangering our country, our way of life, and perhaps the entire world.
Lesson of history:
in 1968, McCarthy [Edwards] and Kennedy [Obama] split the progressive voters and Humphrey [Hillary] got the nomination.
And lost to Nixon.
Let’s not make THAT mistake again!
Edwards Obama 2008–the people’s ticket
Demand better. Be better.
Scarecrow,
That’s what I’m saying!! She does what has to be done to get elected. After elected, the real Hillary will emerge and take us out of this mess that Bush created. With this KO interview , she is already responding to our concerns.
Phyllis
My position is that we should have a female or a black, Hispanic or otherwise for president.
I don’t support a candidate because of their race or gender, but their positions and actions.
Hillary is not bad, but she has done some things which don’t sit well with me. She’s miles ahead of any republican running.
I wish she had not voted for the AMUF and when the coast was clear, she had said had she know now she would have not cast the same vote. She gets to sound tough, sound deceived, and sound humble and smart. But she failed to do that.
She’s a bit too cozy with corporations for my taste and this does forebode well for how this country will be run in a Hill presidency. We really need to decouple the US government from these big corporations.
She’s not my first choice, but getting good choices in THIS system might be asking too much. If she’s the nominee, I’ll hold vote for her. And then we need to really lobby hard for some serious changes in governance of this nation.
wigwam @ 77
excellent commentary. thank you.
selise @ 91
Excellent. How can it be in-fighting when the Clintons and their ilk are not Democrats? Zell Miller calls himself a Democrat. Do the Democrats here think he is?
selise @ 74
ding, ding, ding – we have a winner. Her health-care plan is a boost for her insurance donors and the 401K plan is a boost for the wall street boys. Her positions on Iraq and Iran are a boost for the Military Industrial Complex. Only thing missing is a deference to Big Oil which by default she helps with her ME positions.
I dislike the term “Hillary haters”. That assumes facts which are not necessarily in evidence.
Bilbo @ 78
PhoenixWoman covered it in an article yesterday afternoon, and asked the same final question about the fate of the professor who invited Tutu in the first place.
University presidents are often overly confident people who are very good at backing off when the faculty confronts them. What stuns me is how bad their initial instincts ofen are, e.g., Drake and UC Irvine dehiring Chemerinsky or Lawrence Summers at Harvard publicly hypothesizing for no apparent reason that perhaps women just are smart enough for science. What the hell do these people expect when they do things like that.
Chris @ 67
Since we all know what you mean, does it really hurt?
brendan @ 80
I’m not expressing a defense, weak or otherwise. I’m questioning the unqualified statement that she would make war on other countries, as though we know that for a fact, even though there is no evidence.
Your argument – “neither is there evidence she would not” — logically means that if she can’t prove she would not attack Cambodia, we should assume she would.
lina @ 82
I neglected to add, in her defense, that she co-sponsored the Webb bill, which was a bolt out of the blue for me (it had remained unsponsored since March). So, she’s not “unarguably” against the conditions that make it easier to attack Iran, as I said above, only “arguably” so. She is, for me, as inscrutable and opaque as she was before. Which is, for me, better than a nut case that I can read like a book, like the Giuliani-Podhoretz entity.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 102
Several in this thread have called her “evil” and “vile” – that’s not exactly friendly talk. I think some are looking for the “perfect” politician, president and resident saint. Ain’t gonna happen.
jayackroyd @ 81
i think she is a talented and intelligent political campaigner. have been very impressed with that.
selise @ 74
She wont cut defense spending one iota. In fact, isn’t she one of those clowns that thinks we need a BIGGER army? Why?! The ONLY reason to make it bigger than it is (still a Cold War army, navy, air force) is to get into MORE wars (for oil, for the hell of it, for corporate profits).
There is a simple way to fix the budget mess and cover required social obligations: cut defense spending (kill the ABM shit), cut big ass naval vessels and subs. Quit spending as if we are still facing the Soviet Union. We are ONLY facing raggedy bands of poor people in camps in small-state-sized countries in the ME. Sheesh! How much military do you need to deal with raggedy bands of AK-47-bearing poor folk?!
Defense spending must be cut. It is time for that much-delayed peace dividend we were promised so long ago. I expected that dividend to come through when I was RIFed (Reduction In Force) back in 1992. It vanished before it came through! Had to find some new scary enemy to justify MORE defense spending.
It is far cheaper to wage a non-belligerent and non-arrogant, non-overbearing foreign policy that earns respect and cooperation than to wage one that induces conflict and war.
Hillary wont cut defense. Oh no, must be a liberal hawk (and she IS) to show that she ain’t no “weak woman” or “pansy liberal”. She will barely correct the tax absurdities that Bush has wrought. The rich will continue to get MUCH richer under Hillary, maybe only ever-so-slightly slower while everyone else gets scraps (and are forced to pay for private insurance).
She would have no problem with more bullshit “foreign policy” like the starvation policy that Bill inflicted on Iraq and adamantly refused to undo when it was clear that Saddam wasn’t hurt one iota by it but the “little people” were. Expect something like that shit from her for Iran and Syria.
She is simply unacceptable and merely more of the same old same old. Can’t we PLEASE move into the 21st century and NOT drag the worst of the 20th into the future?
To me, the issue really is this: Given the situation we have in this country and in the world right now and into the immediate future (given what Bush/Cheney-ism has given us for the past 7 years), what does the country need in the way of leadership and administration?
Who is going to fight for the Contstitution? Who is going to fight the Rethug Right?
Who is going to help us all to feel safe and secure in our homes again? To feel that our phone calls and emails are not being monitored – that we can travel and read what we want and wear stupid tee shirts that say goofy stuff and no one is going to pull us out of line? Who is going to make sure that this country doesn’t continue the slide into Fascism?
It’s not a case of:
Not what I would like? This person is not “pure” enough.
Not what I would like to hear?
What we need?
Do we need the “terrible swift sword” or a surgeon? Do we need the bipartisan diplomat or Shaka Zulu to lead the rest to beat on their shields?
This country is already in very deep shit. Arguing about philosophical purity and where someone gets contributions from is, IMHO, idiotic when there is every chance that some of us may end up with a knock on our doors at 2 a.m.
I think the serious discussion needs to be who is a) the most effective “tool” to get what we need done who is at our disposal who b) we can get elected.
Period.
I don’t hate her. I’m perfectly happy for her to remain in the Senate.
She is simply not the best choice for the general election 2008. She will get my Republican neighbors to the polls again. I want them to stay home like they did in 2006.
Twain @ 107
Wait a sec. Voting for the Iraq war wasn’t “evil”, or “vile” (a palindrome!)? Call a spade a spade. It doesn’t preclude voting for her, as I can attest.
Thanks, peanutbutter — I sort of suspected as much, though I wasn’t sure at first (when it was awaiting moderation) whether it was the acronym, or one of the other words (”Israel” or “genocide” or “Armenia” or “Never again”; I could see any of those as being triggers, but I may be over-estimating technological-linguistic sophistication on the part of the filter for that last one).
And I’ll resist the urge to use “Voldemort” as a synonym, for “the lobby that shall not be named” (TLTSNBN?) — since that’d probably be *even* less flattering (sometimes, I have a real way with words)…
And it’s strange (as Glenn Greenwald, also, has been pointing out) how conservatives can say all kinds of stuff (really, “perfecting”?) without getting called on it, but liberals can barely say, “Isn’t that a bit odd?” without setting off tripwires for an outrage machine that at least in theory and in the interest of alleged philosophical consistency/integrity, isn’t *supposed* to be a simple partisan bludgeon.
What Selise said @74.
I’d like to see the pres step back from the raging militarism of this country. We don’t need to be the world’s super power. Why?
We need to have a pres set an agenda so that the needs of the people are met and without privatization scenarios.
We need single payer health care and let the insurance company stick to auto and liability policies. Health should not be a risk benefit calculation.
My new bumper sticker
Don’t Lose It With Hillary
diogenes -
Glad I happened to catch you today! Was already gone yesterday when you left the note re. location.
If you happen to be in the mid-part of the district again and have any free time, leave word. I’m usually in the water or lurking 5-9-ish a.m. our time.
Praedor Atrebates @ 109
We DO NOT know what will happen or what she will do. We do not know what any of them will do. She withstood the worst possible slander and hate when Bill was president – in my book, that makes her one tough woman and I’ll take that.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 92
You are OK Kiddo…… keep it up, I have to go out!
Scarecrow @ 105
i think there is a point to be made, based on her previous actions (votes and otherwise), that have given us reason to worry that she would not be the best person to keep us out of war. not saying this is a fact – just a worry.
jayackroyd @ 81
You do realise, do you not, that you are not REQUIRED to cast a vote in the Presidential? You can simply skip that part of the ballot. I will if necessary. If there is no acceptable 3rd party alternative for me to throw a vote at, then I wont vote at all in the Presidential part of the ballot.
brendan @ 112
THAT IS NOT A PALINDROME!!!111
Twain @ 95
I agree with you completely. Any of the Democratic candidates provides some hope of restoration of a sane U.S. role in the world and hope for opportunity for American citizens. Virtually all of the Republican Candidates would result in a continuation of the decline in our country and way of life.
To demonize any of the Democratic candidates, can ultimately be disasterous.
Praedor Atrebates @ 109
———————-
Yes, and more YES!
Every single election cycle it’s the same…lesser of two evils, so better vote for whoever calls themselves a Democrat.
C’mon! We have the power to change this, but it’s only going to happen if we demand it! “Holding your nose” and voting for people that aren’t completely odious is not demanding change.
Just because Those Who Know Better and the media have been saying for the last 4 fours that a Hillary nomination is inevitable doesn’t make it so.
It’s an anogram
Able was I ere I saw Elba
I have voted the straight Democratic ticket for 39 years. I voted for Bill Clinton four times. Twice in the primaries and twice in the generals. Will I vote for Hillary in the primaries? As things stand now, not a chance. And not incidentally, I am not a “Hillary hater”. I just think there are other Democrats I trust far more than Senator Clinton to lead this country. I am weary of triangulating, evading questions, and branding questions which she does not want to, and will not answer, as “hypotheticals”. Oh and I am really tired of the DLC, Harold Ford Jr., Rahm Emanuel and Joe Lieberman and his friends.
Toby Wollin @ 110
This is wrong. Your attaching too much importance to the individual and not enough to the interests behind that individual. Complaining about where her funding comes from is essential, and by no means are those complaints and ultimately voting for her mutually exclusive. It’s a very useful dialogue — I didn’t know, for example, about her position on telcom immunity (ht wigwam), for example. To repeat myself, it’s up to us to identify her constituencies, so that we can replace them with ourselves. Part of this is knowing enough so that we can, for example, ask in a public forum: Why do you take telcom hush money? Or, Why do you give Cheney a blank check? Her positions and loyalties have to be exposed before they can be altered.
Her Iranian position is a non-starter, and for me a deal-breaker. And NO questions on Iraq? I am disappointed in Olberman. Clinton’s FISA response is consistent for her. She is tops among democratic candidates in terms of contributions from BIG TELECOM, and I believe in the Top 5 recipients overall.
Would she be better than any republican running? Of course.
Is she the best choice for Democrats? Not by a long shot.
SanderO @ 124
:)
Is Hillary competent to govern? Absolutely – she can out-manage and and out-organize the twerp in the White House with both hands tied behind her back. In fact, she is the best organizer in either field.
Should we have a lady president? We are way past due.
Why, then, do I stand against her?
Simple. Her policies, and actions that support them. Given her corporate ties, and activities on their behalf, she is part of the problem.
She is somewhat better than any in the Republican field and only against that backdrop (the general election) will I vote for her.
Ask yourself this: if she were Senator John Smith from NY, with exactly the same track record and policies as Hillary, would we pay him any ragged-assed mind?
Probably not.
tw3k @ 121
Thanks (I’m blushing). Anagram.
lina @ 88
She voted for a flag burning bill, not an amendment. As folks have pointed out, she is a consumate politician and she could vote for a bill knowing that it would be ruled unconstitutional.
AnAgram and disastrous, guys!
Toby Wollin @ 110
maunga @ 118
Ding! Ding! Ding! That fact speaks with all the volume one needs to judge what Hillary REALLY stands for.
brendan @ 130
I just felt like shouting, nothing personal ;)
Peterr@87 — thanks; that’s a very good reason, and I’m glad it’s set up that way.
TJ@104 — nope, doesn’t hurt at all. I was just curious whether it was a word-search thing, or if there was an element of human comment-by-comment moderation (a forbidden sarcasm filter, perhaps; as if anyone has *that* much free time). Also, I was kind of hoping it’d show up promptly and get recognized for its snarky brilliance ;-)
[Mod: If we had a sarcasm filter, would we tell you?]
was kinda hoping that someone would explain to me how clinton’s retirement saving plan was not just a privatization program in disguise. (see my comment at 74)
haven’t seen one. did i miss it?
or does everyone here agree?
pma @ 89
I lived through much the same situations. I also saw all the pundits declaring how Rudy would beat Hillary in the NY Senate race for six months. Until Hillary showed that she was a damned good candidate and capable of mopping the floor with Rudy. His cancer gave him the excuse to duck out of the fight and run. Do NOT underestimate Hillary OR overestimate Rudy.
selise:
Obama is also one who has proposed increasing the size of the army. I don’t know if that necessarily means increasing the defense budget, but I assume it does.
This just goes to show what our job here is. Have these empty suits (and pants suits) every heard the proposal that we should reduce the size of the military? Has anyone heard the phrase “peace dividend” in the press in the past fifteen years? No to both. It’s up to us to introduce sanity to public discourse.
I agree, Selise.
Folks can already start a 401k, if they have the loot to spare (fewer and fewer, these days).
For the gov’t to sponsor one is the first step to backing into privatization.
brendan @ 138
Which we cannot do if the Repugs are in charge. We must do it from the inside.
dakine01 @ 131
she should have voted NO!
selise @ 74
1) The commitment to Iraq will pretty clearly be less under a Clinton administration than under the current administration. It will clearly be much more than I would like.
What is really needed is a broad commitment, not just from the president, but from the Congress to forego the pork and substantially cut defense spending. There is clearly no reason to remain on a war footing, but Clinton simply will not campaign on broad cuts. On this one, you have to decide to focus on changing the Senate, and somehow undercutting the narrative that America is surrounded by dangerous enemies. Neither of those are short term enterprises.
2) This is a very smart political ploy. It completely undercuts republican messages about “an ownership society” and their commitment to the middle class. I think she should not have backed off of her baby bonds proposal. Cheap at the price and actually good policy.
As for really helping with entitlements, the real issue is fixing the health care system. That’s not a medicare issue. That’s an issue that stems from the entire health care system. Fixing it will reduce US health care costs substantially.
kdh22 @ 7
I agree 1000%. She used the platform many progressives would watch to espouse things we want to hear knowing there would be no hostile questions (that was probably part of the deal) to answer in order to tell us she’s just interested in the middle class.
She will eviscerate social security as a favor to the financial community to which she is beholden, she will work to push nuclear power as a favor to Entergy, the FDA will continue to be at the beck and call of the industries it should regulate, like Tyson and ConAgra, and people will fall for it because it will be good ole Hil doing it to them.
There will be NO effort at reforming the bankruptcy laws to make them more realisitic for middle class Americans, the credit card companies will continue to practice usury in this country, people will see their dreams of their childen having it better than them shattered, and HRC will proudly take her place in history while America continues down the path to dynastic succession.
I will never vote for HRC.
selise @ 136
The main difference, such as it is, is that HER privatization plan is in addition to Social Security (which she will do little to properly fund). Her universal healthcare plan, likewise, is more privatization at the expense of Medicare. In BOTH cases, she mandates profits for corporate CEOs and mandates “maximized shareholder value” for Wallstreet criminal companies and criminal health insurance companies.
Call Hillary’s plans “Privatization Plus!”
Peterr @ 87
Sounds to me like FDL is the victim of a false flag operation meant to censor A*P*C out of all comments.
Praedor Atrebates @ 119
Sure, but casting a blank ballot in a race means that you make no statement at all. Your protest doesn’t register.
Peanutbutter, Twain, Katie:
Hear Hear
Personally, I worry that Hillary is not outraged enough about the use and gross abuse of power and of our laws, the maladministration of the executive branch of government, and the coercive and dishonest methods of attaining and maintaining power perpetrated by the current WH occupants. I am worried that she will take all the power that Bush ends up handing her, including the readiness to write signing statements and stack the decks of the WH offices, and use and abuse the powers of the Presidency just as Bush did, to the detriment of both houses of Congress and the Judiciary.
Twain @ 140
One of the useful facts highlighted by the surprisingly villified PBS series on WWII is that, at the beginning of hostilities, our uniformed forces were smaller than Belgium’s.
Of course, that’s back when we thought that “the oceans protected us”. Hey, wait a minute…
I think KO was of course going to ask about the Iran vote, he is no dummy and has talked about it in detail.
Clinton wanted to get some messages out as all Pols do and I think you have a great analysis here, but she must have known at least the following items would come up:
1. SCHIP and the kid (100%)
2. Iran vote (95%, unless KO was a limp fish)
3. Gore (75%, since the award was that night)
I think she responded well to all the questions but the Iran one (which is actually a disagreement) – on that I caught the Pelosi condesention argument (us simple minded folk just don’t understand).
On the economic questions I think in truth she is spinning a bit, based on the record I am sure there will be an improvement but I think she is more in the camp of talk big and deliver small. Well I guess at least some talk and some delivery is better than what we have – but could the bar be any lower?
You are quite right that she took the questions to dove-tail into an overall larger theme.
Hillary also thinks Al Gore deserves the Nobel Peace Prize. Yep.
selise @ 136
“privatization” is typically used to move contributions from Social Security to “private investment accounts.” Democrats opposed this because it is a way of undermining social security — which is an intergenerational social contract that one generation will support the last in its retirement. It was another attack on the broader social contract.
Hillary’s plan does not divert SS dollars/payments to private acounts. She takes additional federal revenues and uses them to supplement individual savings plans, for specified purposes — mostly retirement, but with exceptions for college, buying your first house, or emergencies. A savings plan is consistent with a lot of economists who are concerned about the lack of savings in America. The savings accounts make sense if they earn reasonable return/interest — hence the funds get invested, like contributions to a 401 retirement plan. The federal matching for contributions up to $1000 are designed to encourage individual savings by those less likely to save.
jayackroyd @ 145
Do any states offer ballots with “none of the above” on them? THAT would be nice nationwide so that it is CLEAR when people are protesting against candidates selected by pundits. A large percentage for “none of the above” would be clear and unequivocal.
Hmmm. I just wonder why conservatives hate both of the Clintons so much, when I’m learning here that they are the most effective conservatives in history.
deandra @ 150
The statement seemed gracious; it was in the context of a Q from Olbermann about whether if Gore wins the Nobel, it might encourage Gore to run. What did she think of that? She praised Gore for his work, said he deserved the Prize, and ducked the political question.
jayackroyd @ 142
just to focus on this bit….
reminds me too much of the following:
1) nafta is a very smart poltical ploy. It completely undercuts the republican message.
2) welfare reform is a very smart poltical ploy. It completely undercuts the republican message.
i’m not ok with retirement privatization being a very smart poltical ploy. somethings are just too important to give away for political advantage.
and since i’m already concerned about her (and the other candidates actually) being far to much in bed with the corporations… i’m looking for evidence that it is not the case here. and just not seeing it.
Here’s what worries me: The Clintons actually think we are looking for another Thatcher.
That people that intelligent could be so far behind in their thinking is frightening. Considering the delicate state of the world,
another Thatcher is the last thing we need.
Praedor Atrebates @ 144
I haven’t read these plans yet, though rumor is that a very well worked out comparison document is coming out soon. But Krugman says, in a column and in an interview at TPM that all these plans (Edwards, Obama, Clinton) include the option to opt out of private insurance and use a government plan. I do agree with him that even getting that past the insurance/HMO lobby is going to be very difficult, so I can see why those provisions are part of these plans.
In the end, I agree with atrios–send everybody a health care eligibility card and raise taxes. In the LR, (more like the very medium term), takehome pay will rise, because the tax total will be less than the premium plus copay plus other out of pocket plus taxes total.
Frankly, this is not materially different from the original Clinton commission plan, which kept private insurers in the loop as an option, but filled the system with so much bureaucracy and nonsense that the other alternative, a state-based single payer plan, was clearly a better option. And that one I did read.
Scarecrow @ 13
I disagree as any candidate that has a chance will get attacked by the right every day. They do it because they want the power.
I suppose some of the low poll number candidates want a little power, and money and increase in their speaking fee.
selise @ 155
Like the 4th amendment? Not for this congress…
I sense that if the dems sweep into control some more aggressive redirects of our government will come forth. They don’t want to run on these now, for some dumb reason.
We need to lobby them intensely after they are sworn in and make sure the right legislation is passed.
It’s all politics.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 102
Me too!!! Hillary Questioners perhaps.
lina @ 88
My biggest concern about Hillary involve her ties to Haim Saban and his institute and the presence of his people among her foreign policy advisors.
Saban is an Israeli multimillionair who has raised somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 million dollars for Hillary and who is quoted as saying, “I’m a one-issue guy, and my issue is Isreal.” He has also set up a center, the Saban Center for Mideast Policy at the Brookings Institution. Its director is Martin Indyk, Bill Clinton’s mideast advisor. It’s research director is Kenneth Pollack, author of The Threatening Storm: The Case for Invading Iraq, (Random House, 2002, ISBN 0-375-50928-3). (Per the Wikipedia, “A U.S. government indictment alleges that Pollack provided information to former American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) employees Steve Rosen and Keith Weissman during the AIPAC espionage scandal.”) And among its affiliate members is Michael O’Hanlon, who together with Pollack made a trip to Iraq and published an infamous NYT op-ed, “A war we just might win,” upon their return.
Both Indyk and O’Hanlon are listed among her advisors. IIRC, Glenn Greenwald suggested that O’Hanlon might be in line for a cabinet post.
Praedor Atrebates @ 152
Yes, I agree that is a great idea. I actually spent some time in the late eighties agitating for a NOTA line. There is no way that any legislature will pass such a thing.
There is no such line on US ballots today.
For those of you looking for videos of Gore’s speeches, here are a few:
CONGRESSIONAL TESTIMONY – GLOBAL WARMING – 3.23.07
Highlight – “Our Grandchildren Are Counting On Us” http://www.politicstv.com/blog/?p=1941
Full Testimony http://www.politicstv.com/blog/?p=1937
THE ASSAULT ON REASON – BOOK TOUR SPEECH – 6/07
Highlights http://www.politicstv.com/blog/?p=2796
Full Speech http://www.politicstv.com/blog/?p=2798
The Assault on the Environment http://www.politicstv.com/blog/?p=2795
SPEECH ON BUSH DOMESTIC SPYING – 1/06
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6bMDaX14PQ
If you support Senator Clinton for president, then it seems to follow that you support what the DLC does. Since it is hardly a secret that Clinton is one of the DLC Team Leaders. Can someone point out what it is exactly that the DLC does to promote traditional Democratic ideals? Keep in mind that DLC supported the Busk attack on Iraq.
Yeah, from Scarecrow’s post above (I don’t pay extra for MSNBC on Dish) I gathered two things about HRC, that I basically already knew.
First: She’s a shrewd politician and she understands the advantage of this “Swiftboating a 12-year-old” issue for Democrats – sadly she seems to be the only one to be taking advantage of this one.
Second: Though she’ll be an improvement over Bush if she (God help us all) becomes president, she won’t do anything to change the dangerous corpratist course this country has been on for a good 30-40 years.
She may be the “compassionate conservative” that Republicans keep claiming to be, but she’s still staunchly in the neo-liberal economic camp. And what’s more troubling, she seems unconcerned about stopping a potential U.S. attack on Iran — which would be yet another war crime the U.S. government would be guilty of.
Twain @ 48
Great Comment and I agree with every word. I have noticed over these last few months that there has been sort of a building hate for Hillary. I am an Edwards supporter but I will vote for Hillary if she is the nominee with confidence. She is being treated as if she is the worst thing since Bush and it’s simply not true. We could cause ourselves some very real problems if we continue this message since they righties will use our words against us. Let’s not do that, please. We may regret it.
Agreed. I’m in the same boat. I’m an Edwards man, but would non-reluctantly vote for HRC in the event she is the nominee. We have to work with the money-based political system we have, not the people-based system we’d like to have. That’s work for the long haul. Every progressive campaign helps, win or lose.
kdh22 @ 162
I don’t “hate” Hillary. I merely despise everything she stands for and supports.
PLovering @ 145
I doubt it — from the way Christy described it, these were True Believers. As for censoring, we’ve had plenty of comments on A*P*C, I/P, and others related to that very volatile region. I have no doubt that they will continue, asterisks or no asterisks.
Prairie Sunshine @ 19
This is an interesting thing you say here. Of course not likely since everyone wants to win the big prize. But in a large moderatly open field (HRC is not garunteed a win yet) like we have – what would happen if the number 2 & 3 decided that one would be VP and drop into a support for the other and announce a P – VP ticket in the Primary.
Not likely at all, but an interesting thing to think about as at least an exercise. Funny idea, has anything like this ever happened?
Scarecrow @ 163
But his speeches that might surprise you the most are those on civil liberties and executive over-reach. He’s given two to the constitutional society that just rocked the house down. For those who haven’t followed Gore, I suggest the speech he gave on MLK day, regarding FISA and such. This ain’t the old Al Gore, folks!
Praedor Atrebates @ 169
Praedor,
It must be wonderful to be so sure in all your beliefs. No nuances, no questioning anything at all, just nothing but the purity that you are the sole arbiter of what is right and wrong.
Thank you for blessing us with your wisdom and guidance.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 165
They believe that the Federal Government has a role in promoting the general welfare. They understand that democracy is a political system and capitalism is an economic system. They understand that it is sometimes in the national interest for government to regulate private enterprise in order to promote the national welfare.
Knut Wicksell @ 166
Someone once said that politics is the art of the possible. We need to get a Democrat elected before we can do anything. Pressure does not work on Republicans but Democrats usually listen to the people. We all have our fingers crossed in this one and we must do what is possible for our country.
Scarecrow @ 152
ok, you just convinced me that it is privatization by disguise…. funding “private investment accounts” while underfunding SS/medicare is, imo, a sneaky way to eventually undermine social security. if we had a generous, financially solvent retirement system – i would not be making this argument.
but so long as that is not the case – and it can’t be unless and until our broken health care system is fixed and out budgetary priorities (including “defense” spending) are put in order – i am very opposed to clinton’s “retirement plan”
in this one area – we’d be better off with a republican in office because then we could count on the democrats in congress and much of the activist base to fight against privitization…. but if the bill clinton years are any indication of what the future holds, we can expect a democratic president to be able to accomplished what a republican president never could.
Speaking of Stooliani.
Why is Rudy Giuliani such a bad judge of character?
Bernard Kerik’s legal nightmare is about to get worse, with federal prosecutors expected to file charges against the former police commissioner that will likely include allegations of bribery, tax fraud and obstruction of justice, the Daily News has learned.
Rudy Giuliani, friend to criminals.
-GSD
That was generous of you, Scarecrow. I guess it depends on your definition of, “strong.”
The message to the Progressive community I got is that she needs our votes but she’s not willing to stand up and fight for the people and the Constitution.
The S-CHIP thing is a no-brainer. Duh. Even the Republicans in the Senate know how to vote on that. I disagree that la duchesa wants to bolster the middle class with government programs, especially ones that might cut into the bottom line of her beloved benefactors in the insurance, media, pharmaceutical and weapons/contracting industries.
Don’t be fooled. Her time has passed.
Her ineptitudes on foreign policy should be obvious by now, but if the Iran resolution didn’t tell you what you should have learned from the 2002 AUMF, just watch how she handles Turkey, Burma, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.
Thank you, for the detailed accounting of the important exchanges here, though. She’s obviously trying to reach out to “the base” through the KO conduit.
pma @ 173
They also “believe in” NAFTA, CAFTA, the WTO, the “third way” and outsourcing.
My rule of thumb: If someone says that they cannot ever ever vote for someone like HRC because she wants a war with Iran, plans to continue Bush executive powers, is sold out to corporate interests, they are either a Naderite fool, or more likely, a GOP troll. Given the sad state of the GOP in 2008, their only hope for a victory is a split in the Democratic party. They are thinking 1968, when the most active, committed antiwar activists sat out the election, giving the White House to Richard Nixon.
Strongly held views about politicians are the norm, here. And if you express them, expect to be challenged by those with equally strong views. However, please show respect for each other in your comments.
Peterr @ 170
Unmoderated discussions of Israel and related matters invariably turn into unproductive food fights. The FDL moderators have been excellent at preventing that while at the same time allowing legitimate discussion. Some times it gets to be a very fine distinction.
The filter on words like AIPAC are an assist to the moderators. They aren’t infallable, however. (As you can readily see above.)
Scarecrow @ 180
With you there, Scarecrow.
Praedor Atrebates @ 41
In the middle between she is acceptable and this. It all depends on how the country goes over the next year I think. I don’t know if I can support her. But at the same time if a Republican wins I think I have to move out based on 4 – 8 more years of sicko SC and Fed judges. Then how good is it going to be to get HRC Corporate klepto judes on top of what Bush has tied around our necks?
Tom @ 180
I think this discussion would be greatly facilitated if participants would refrain from prejudicial namecalling–i.e., “Naderite fool” or “GOP troll.”
liberal elite @ 177
Yes — I thought the main point was the apparent effort to reach out, particularly at a time when we’re seeing stories of how upset at the “base” Demo leaders are.
I will support the Democratic nominee for president.
selise @ 176
IMO if HRC becomes president, we will have elected someone who resembles a Republican more than a Democrat on numerous domestic and foreign policy issues.
EPU’d from zennurse:
So much for Nice Polite Republican spin
selise @ 155
First, let me add to scarecrow’s comment that this is independent of SS policy. It is not retirement plan privatization. The idea is not dissimilar to IRAs which has done no harm, and contains a politically palatable to redress some of the regressive direction the tax code has taken. Not as much as the hedge fund tax loophole, I agree. But, again, that’s a problem with the senate not with clinton.
I happen to believe that welfare reform was good policy, and would ask you for evidence that replacing a myriad of means tested, state administered systems with a tax credit program has been unsuccessful.
On NAFTA, there I also would disagree with you, although I’d say you have a stronger case to make.
On the politics of it, one of the most potent weapons that the republicans use is to simply lie about their programs, what the contain and what they intend to do. It’s very difficult to refute short, blatant lies. When Gore or Kerry tried to do so, they got made of for being pointy-headed pussies. It is much more effective to offer a plan that makes the republican claims clearly false. that’s not easy with no child left behind or the healthy forests initiative. But Clinton shows it is easy here.
Now regarding this:
somethings are just too important to give away for political advantage.
So what things would those be? There are principles,like the rule of law and the sanctity of the constitution where I agree with you. I don’t think there is middle ground or compromise on whether Iraq is occupied or not.
But the very nature of income transfer programs is that they can be tweaked, adjusted, fixed and messed with so that you can actually get bills through the legislature. Taking an absolutist stance on issues where compromise is both possible and essential is simply not participating effectively in the process.
One of the reasons Clinton is my fourth or fifth preference is that I think she is much more naturally a legislator than an executive. I think this kind of stuff she likes to do will undercut her ability to lead. But you do need to recognize that if you are going to ask for details, as you should, you will find that there are compromises necessary.
Christy’s upstairs…
brendan @ 126
Hi Brendan: Agreed. See #167.
You folks are having too much fun here, and we can’t have that. Christy has a new thread.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 186
I will support OK.
jayackroyd @ 190
I’ve appreciated your commentary the most. Reasoned and articulate. Did not sway my opinion but informative.
jackaroyd @ 158
Agree.
My son has a Medicaid card. It’s very easy when we go to the doctor or the hospital. No nurse has to spend hours calling to get prior authorization, to see if he’s covered for this or that med/procedure/surgery/stay/etc.
I’ve personally seen an ER nurse on the phone for 2 hours (when I worked ER)trying to get authorization for a psych patient to be admitted.
Tom @ 180
Nice try. I’m a LIBERAL and proud of that. I WAS a Democrat from the first day I could vote in 1980 until this year. I QUIT the Democrat Party after no longer being able to justify to myself their repeat failures to do what the people wanted and what was clearly in the best interests of the country and Constitution. They voted for Roberts and Alito. They voted for the war in Iraq and continue to do with with supplementals. They voted for the MCA and gutting Habeas. They voted for the bankruptcy bill. They voted for war with Iran. They voted for that horrendous FISA “expansion” bill and now, in the Senate, have put forth a bill to make it permanent WITH the addition of immunity for Telcos (Yeah yeah, the Houe bill is different…but SO WHAT?! There is a Conference Committee needed to pound out the differences! Guess what is lost in that Butt Pounding?). It just goes on and on and on.
The Dem party is merely the other side of the same coin with the GOP on the other. No difference on anything of core importance.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 186
Right on the money there, okk. Bottom line for me too, though I’d prefer Gore or Edwards. If we don’t elect a Dem, the rest is moot.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 179
But, I believe that the issues have gone beyond that right now. Were in our seventh year of the undermining of every improvement in the general welfare since the turn of the 20th centuries. The batch of Republicans in power want to take this country back to somewhere prior to the Progressive Movement, Fair Deal and New Deal. We may not be able to restore the country we had, but IMO, if we undermine whoever the Democrats nominate, we are hurting the chances of ever restoring the country or having any real say in its governance.
ccmask @ 27
CC, I like your phrase “war & wiretap” – makes for a good snark slogan for Rudy.
Hillary out right has called nafta a mistake. Period. She said it must be changed.
I wish people would listen to facts. I am not a Hillary supporter but for god’s sake…stop the hyperbole.
“It will be a sad day if she gets the nomination but I’ll hold my nose and support her.”
And she (and the other candidates) knows this – the sheep will follow. Until that changes, we are powerless.
More and better progressives in Congress and (for me at least) if she or Obama are the nominee, I’ll sit out the presidential vote. I vowed in 2004 with Kerry, it would be the last time I would donate my vote.
I’ll vote Kucinich at our caucus (not that it will matter by that time) and hope other candidates get sufficient support so we end up with an open convention. That’s our best chance for a progressive impact.
jayackroyd @ 190 –
thanks for the long reply, which i won’t quote here (as this comment will be posted nearby).
you said clinton’s retirement plan was smart politics – not smart policy. that was why i responded the way i did.
each of us will have different ideas about what is ok to give away for political advantage. if the policies she’s proposed are the ones she really thinks are best for the little people, that’s one thing and we can argue about policy and i’d be happy to consider compromise.
but compromise is a different beast than designing policy for political advantage – which again, is what i thought you were saying with your comment, “This is a very smart political ploy. It completely undercuts republican messages…”
my concern is, again, that a smart democratic president is capable of getting legislation passed that we would never accept from a republican president. i think nafta and welfare reform were two examples of that.
whether or not you think they are good policy or – do you think democrats would have supported them in the same way if they had been proposed by a republican president?
Selise — Hillary has not said she would underfund SS. So the second half of your premise is supposition.
tw3k @ 195
what tw3k said.
“Putting Iraq aside (there were no questions on it)”
Was THE most important thing that was said. Or, in the case of the interview, itself, that was NOT said.
It pure-assed spoke VOLUMES.
Here’s what it said:
It said:
In a campaign and election in which Iraq is THE most important issue, with every prospect that, at the least, the situation there will not have improved, and may well be worse by November of 2008, Hillary Clinton is frantic to NOT be asked about the fact that she doesn’t think that the invasion was a mistake, nor, to be asked about all the rest of her support for bush’s policies.
It said:
In order to get her on, and let her talk about these safe issues, Olberman was willing to agree to this, and to play media whore, with a vengeance.
He could have asked her:
“Senator Clinton, since you won’t say that the invasion, and your vote to authorize it, in 2002, was a mistake, do you BELIEVE that it was NOT a mistake, and if not, what would it take for you to view the invasion as a mistake?
He could have asked her:
“SPECIFICALLY; can you please tell us how your policies on Iraq differ from those of george bush?”
He could have asked her:
“How can you blame the Iraqi Government for failing to deal with the violence in Iraq, when the mayhem which is a direct result of bush’s invasion (and your unapologetic support of it) is so bad that if they left the green zone to meet somewhere else, they would probably be converted into Alpo within 72 hours?”
He could have asked her:
“You have very close ties with A*PAC, whose views on Iran are well known. If you’re elected president, how much will that relationship have to do with any decision you make with regard to attacking Iran?”
He could have asked her:
“In an election year in which Iraq is going to play a pivotal role, and on which issue, the republicans are highly vulnerable, how do you expect to make political capital out of criticizing them for what they’ve created there, when you refuse to state or acknowledge that it was a mistake to invade?”
After Olberman’s wonderful, angry, rants, about bush and the war, for him to let Clinton use his program for one more MSM puff-piece opportunity, is worse than despicable.
It was nauseating.
For shame, Keith.
~~~ModNote: Edited for content to clear filters.~~~
Scarecrow @ 204
but, that’s not what i wrote…. it was “underfunding SS/medicare.”
as an asided, imo, SS is underfunded now (delayed retirement, limited benefits). i’d like to see it improved before adding 25 billion a year to a privatized retirement plan.
selise @ 205
I don’t disagree with the need for adequate funding for both SS and Medicare. I just don’t think you can assume that Hillary would deliberatly underfund either, and then claim, “it’s okay, because we have these new 401k investments.” That’s the questionable supposition. JayAckroyd notes that we’ve had government sponsored investment plans like IRAs, without necessarily affecting the SS funding issue.
“Ghostman says: Oh, I disagree***. I think she’s had everything handed to her on a silver platter. She married smart and used her husband’s coat-tails for every achievement she’s ever laid claim to. ***
She’ll dole out some breadcrumbs to keep us happy. And then……slide a knife in our back at every opportunity.”
Ghostman, this is sad. Mrs. Clinton came from a middle-class background to excel at Yale Law School. From her teenage years attending a socially responsible church she has establshed her genuine interest in improving the lives of Americans. Her health-care initiative was flawed in its execution, but the idea was sound and who knows how many thousands of lives would have been saved had her initiave passed. She has shown tremendous courage under fire, as the target of vituperation which rivals that received by Eleanor Roosevelt. She overcame huge odds to win a Senate seat in New York. Though sheer persistence, will and, yes, charm she took conservative upstate New York by storm, and won by doing very respectably there. By all accounts, left and right, she has been a superb Senator and is well-liked in that body. So let’s forget this unsupported drivel about her not earning what she has achieved.
On a broader policy note, let’s all agree that any one of the Democratic candidates would be a thousand times better than Bush and Cheney. Let’s agree that we will devote our energies and rhetorical skills to pushing the candidate we think would be best out of the democratic group. Most importantly, let’s agree that it is atavistic to try to tear other Democratic candidates down. This process will probably be over in a few short months, and when that happens many will regret their attacks as they used against the Democratic candidate by her enemies.
Katie Jensen @ 60
Agree wholeheartedly. Primaries are the time to push your choice for nominee, not to fall into the trap of Repugs and others with a hate-on for any candidate, including Hillary. She would be justified for thinking “with (Democratic) friends like these (whose wont is to villify her), who needs (Republican) enemies”.
HRC, Obama, Edwards (I like his damn haircut), Dodd, Richardson, Biden, Kuchinik, et al – anyone of this list is preferable to you know who.
Promote your candidate; cool down the rhetoric of hate on Hillary or any other Dem. I say this respectfully.
CJ @ 202
You understand, do you not, that “more and better” in Congress does NOT mean Democrats. You can get more and better candidates into Congress even if they are 3rd party people. Independents, Greens, etc. The benefit to this is that the more NON-Dems or NON-GOPers in Congress, the more the parties have to come to compromises with 3rd party members to obtain a coalition. I would like to see more Greens and Independents in the House and Senate so that Dems have to actually lose their DLC roots in order to get 3rd party members to agree to caucus with them.
Douglas @ 208
She is a lie. What were her FIRST political instincts when coming of age? Two words: Goldwater Girl.
THAT speaks volumes and applies to her instincts today. She is still a Goldwater Girl.
The chances of getting third party people in is nil. No third party has won a congressional seat in years or held onto for long. Let alone have enough of them to be even a minor swing factor.
Scarecrow @ 207
i make the assumption because, while she has proposed the investment retirement plan, she has (to my knowledge) no plan to address the issue of adequate, let alone enhanced, funding for SS/medicare.
granted, my assumption may very well be wrong…. but i’m unlikely to give it up without some evidence to the contrary. yes, i’m working with limited evidence to attempt to predict the future… i acknowledge all the problems with doing that. i just don’t think the solution is to throw out what little evidence i do have, and say “i don’t know”.
p.s. i do not see previous implimentation of IRAs as being as dangerous as clinton’s plan to spend 25 billion a year on additional privatized investment plan. at some point i’d like to see the expansion of privitized retirement limited while we work on improving / expanding the insurance aspects of SS/medicare.
here’s an example of what i mean – how many months could access to medicare be increased by lowing the age of elegibility with 25 billion a year?
Praedor Atrebates @ 212
Except she wasn’t “of age” in 1964, when she was a “Goldwater Girl.” She turned 17 before that election at a time when the minimum voting age in EVERY state but two (Georgia and Kentucky had 18 voting age) was 21. When I was 17 I wanted to be a career army officer. I changed my views after starting college, as did she.
Or are you one of the infinitesimal number of folks who are actually able to identify at 17 what your political and life goals will be and carry through with them?
Carol @ 212
bernie sanders.
selise @ 216
Selise,
Bernie would be the exception proving the rule. He was the avowed soc*al*st mayor of the largest city in Vermont before running for Congress as an independent. Vermont is one of the few states where this could actually occur.
Here’s the progression since 1992:
Clinton gets corporate friendly legislation passed that takes care of his money people, then he basically wipes out welfare for people who really need it, thereby out-Reaganing Reagan.
Dubya comes in and the democrats collude with his regime to “reform” bankruptcy so that many American workers in the former middle class will have no choice but to take shitty jobs without benefits because bankruptcy is no longer a viable option.
At the same time, democrats play into the GOP line that Social Security and Medicare are in serious trouble and will not be there for people who are currently paying into the system, thereby using the fear factor to undercut the integrity of the system itself.
There will be a democratic president in 2008 because the powers behind the throne, as it were, are chomping at the bit and they want ALL “entitlement” programs that don’t benefit them (and they don’t need any) to be killed off and privatized so that working people can give more of their hard-earned money to people who don’t produce a fucking thing except misery and wars throughout the world.
The slow, drip, drip, drip, erosion of more than one hundred years of social programs earned by the blood of people like Albert Parsons and the other Haymarket martyrs and all who followed them in the IWW, early UMW, and USW workers, the Teamsters in Minnesota in the 1930’s, and the deaths of JFK, Malcolm X, Martin, and Bobby.
We’ve been sold out and will continue to be so if we give someone like HRC a chance to do it.
dakine01 @ 216
as new england becomes bluer… i think third party challenges are more possible… because in some areas the “third party” could actually become the number 2 party (the republicans having been so throughly disgraced – at least that is my hope). this has also been happening a bit in some other areas – the challenge to the democratic mayor of SF came from the green party.
it all depends on where in the country we live.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. She’s the wrong choice for progressives. She’s been bought. The bones she’s throwing us is just what “the doctor(her handlers) ordered”. She’s a fraud. Judge her by her actions not what she says.
Here is a thought, elect independents and put and end to the twins “elephant butt” and “jack ass”.
selise @ 203
On the policy question, I prefer the baby bonds, especially if they can be set with iron clad rules to not be available until age 18 for education, and for nothing else until 21. It’s a cheap way to give a kid a starting point in the education or the workplace. Before they came due, we’d have to do something about financing college educations, so that the money doesn’t go straight into the college endowment funds, but there’s time to figure that out. But I especially like the idea of a nest egg for kids who don’t go on to college.
But anything that encourages savings and transfers income downward is a good thing.
On republican bills being passed by democrats, I think you’re being prejudiced by recent history. First, Bush would not have proposed NAFTA or the Clinton welfare reform. We know that because he proposed CAFTA and the dismantling of the SS system. I know you think that was bad legislation, but the welfare system was broken, with AFDC recipients facing the highest marginal tax rate in the country and food stamp recipients humiliated. The EITC is much cheaper to administer, has a much lower marginal tax rate on earnings and doesn’t require humiliating trips to justify your poverty to government workers. Likewise, the foodstamp electronic debit card system makes the program much more successful, and better administered.
On NAFTA, the evidence is more mixed, and requires more discussion than I can go into here. But it was not the straight up corporate subsidization program that was CAFTA.
Moreover, there was a time when Republicans proposed reasonable legislation, most spectacularly the Clean Air and Clean Water acts. Bush I raised taxes when he had to, as did Reagan.
So, yes, I think the time will come again when a republican president proposes legislation that democrats will vote for. Twelve years away, at minimum, IMO.
Finally, things that are proposed on the campaign trail seldom get enacted. It doesn’t bother me when candidates propose simple programs that illustrate the differences between themselves and their republican opponents. Such simple programs will not be enacted. The idea is to make a clear differentiation between the popular democratic policies and the unpopular republican policies.
This, of course, brings us to a point of extreme agreement–Iraq. The failure of Obama and Edwards to stake a clear position on ending the occupation is much more disappointing to me than anything Clinton has said.
“Hillary is no threat.”
Katie, she’s a terrible threat.
She cannot be elected. The GOP would LOVE to have her to run against.
Look; if Iraq even stays at the same level of chaos and violence; that is, 50-60 of our troops dying each month, and a thousand or so Iraqis, dying in the sectarian attacks, with that $2.5 billion a week going down the drain, Iraq will be the single most important issue in the campaign.
Not Social Security.
Not Equal Pay for women.
Not health insurance, or the lack of it.
Iraq.
And it SHOULD be the most important issue. It’s ruining us. And it’s entirely possible, even likely, that the worst is yet to come.
With bush and the GOP’s responsibility for creating it, out of koolaid and bullshit, it is also THE stick with which to beat them.
The numbers that are swinging our way in the polls; the voters whom are ceasing their support of bush and his policies, are not moving because of SS, or women’s rights, or any of the domestic issues. Those matter, but the reason the republicans are looking at the possibility of a democratic tsunami, is because of the miserable debacle they’ve created in Iraq.
And Hillary Clinton simply cannot go after bush and the GOP on this issue. She can’t lift a finger to pick up the stick to beat them with, in her speeches in the general election. If she does, all they have to do is point to the fact that she, herself, doesn’t think it was a mistake to invade Iraq, but instead, she has supported most of the steps bush took to get us into the war, and is supporting the steps to keep us there.
She publicly supported the surge.
She prattled those words, a couple of months ago, when she blamed the Iraqi government for their “failure”. This wasn’t just wrong, it was an obscenity. For her to chime in with the bushCo campaign as they floated this bullshit, to try to cover their asses, was pornographic.
Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have died in the invasion which she voted to authorize, and for which, she has never openly and unequivocally apologized. Instead, she tapdances around the issue, like the republican-lite she is.
I understand your desire to see a woman in the white house. I share it. I used to be a BIG fan of hers.
No more. She’s as unprincipled as the republicans, in my opinion.
But, we can’t afford sentimentality at this point. This one is for all the marbles, for a long time to come.
WADR, you mistake the disgust some of us have about her stance on what may be the most immoral war this country has even been in, for just being anti-woman. (which, itself, is a sexist shot.)
I have a daughter and three granddaughters. I am pro-choice…I consider myself to be a feminist, and have always supported equal rights legislation for women.
But Clinton is a political train-wreck waiting to happen.
If the democrats nominate Edwards, or Obama, or Richardson, they will instantly reduce the republican nominee for president to the status of a sacrificial goat. There are tens of thousands of republicans who will stay home, rather than vote, when they know they’re going to get swamped.
Conversely, if we are stupid enough to nominate Clinton, then ANY candidate they run will have instant credibility. And those same front-running GOP voters will get out of their death beds to vote to deny her the white house.
You think WE are bashing her? If she gets elected, you aint seen nuthin’. Because of how she’s voted, and what’s she said, and is STILL saying, Iraq will be off the table as a red-hot issue. The GOP will eat her alive on the rest of it. And they are licking their chops in anticipation.
She will be pigeonholed as the same old “librul” as which they’ve always depicted her, only this time, she even sold out on Iraq, to try to get votes. That won’t make her attractive to her; NOTHING could do that; they’ll just hammer her with that, too.
Hillary Clinton is the one democrat who can keep the white house in republican hands, but she can do more than that; she can certainly return the Senate to them, and quite possibly, the House, too.
This election, neither John Edwards nor Barak Obama, can do those things.
Dammit, I meant, of course, “Pro-Choice”.
Arrrrghhh….
Tanbark, refresh and see if that’s better.
Mod, thanks. It’s my fault. I get a little punchy on the long ones. :o)
BUT! This debate on the potential nominees is incredibly important, and there’s lots that needs to be said. :o)
Tanbark @ 225
Hear, hear!! Well said!!!
Tanbark @ 222
Well said. All of it. May I increase it with a “what you said squared”?
Frankly, my feelings on this is if the Dems continue to blow EVERYTHING they way they have been since 2006, then I feel they deserve to lose both houses of Congress AND the Presidency. Period.
I fully recognize that even 4 more years of GOP disaster is just that, a friggin’ disaster, I also take some solace in the fact that if they DO win again, then this country may well be doomed. From the crumbled ashes of the GOP/Dem Amerikan “Empire” we can rebuild scraps of a proper and just nation. I am only half joking here. I fully believe that yet more GOP rule could well crash this nation just as surely as ALL empires fade/crash with time. In that case, it would be better for it to crash because then the rest of the world can move on without us fucking everything up with our wars and corporatism.
If the Dems go with Hillary (and immunity for Telecoms, etc) then they DO deserve to lose and I will accept their abject failure as fair price paid. They apparently CANNOT learn any lessons, always twisting actual lessons into some form of “Well, if only we found a way to be MORE Republican!” Nope. That ain’t the lesson and handling EVERYTHING as if that IS the lesson means they DESERVE to lose control of everything in government.
The GOP is a disaster but they cannot be a disaster for much longer. The environment, the economy, the people, and other countries wont tolerate it much longer and the country will collapse into nonexistence…and deservedly so.
Do you know that there is a secessionist movement growing in both the South AND the Northeast? Two polar opposites on the motives of secession (one crudely backwards, the other strongly liberal…guess which goes where) but they are getting together to talk strategy. They want to get the failed GOP AND Democrat government out of their hair. While I am not supportive of this (yet) I am sympathetic. As it now sits, the way the Dems are headed AND the way the GOP continues, they are BOTH assuring that collapse and scattering to the winds of what once was the USA comes in our lifetimes.
Hahahaha… that’s awesome. Thanks for throwing that in there; that made my morning.
As far as I can tell, Mrs. Clinton is so far out ahead of the field, this early on, because she was crowned Dauphin of the Democratic Party by the powers that be, and thereby pushed all over our Legacy Media, for the “safe game” the powers that be want to play.
Other candidates are more suitable to the needs of the times, but “Status Quo” and “Dynasty” rule our politics.
dakine01 @ 215
when i was 17 i inhaled.
old gold @ 38
hope not – Obama is twit when it comes to foreign affairs and would be another monumental disaster for the world at large.
Praedor Atrebates @ 197
Hmm, methinks we have an elephant in a donkey suit. A real Democrat knows that their political organization is the Democratic Party.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 187
Even HRC??
If anyone’s still here, don’t forget Hillary grew up a Republican and changed after being Pres of the Wellesley College Republican Society….
For those too idle to read back to the low numbers above, H Clinton does NOT have the numbers among all voters…..
I copy from 60 something:
Today’s poll figures will not be a Wake-Up to the DNC nor to the Congressional Democrats, so what the hell to do?
68% have as much distaste for the Democratic Congress as they do for Bush/Cheney.
A Democratic Presidency has an 13 point lead over a Republican, but when Hillary is the Democratic candidate the lead is cut to 3 points. That figure will get lower and lower until it disappears: Hillary Clinton is unelectable.
The tiny number of vote-switchers, and Democratic Party supporters, will turn out to vote in a landslide for a candidate whom they hear say he/she:
1. will immediately disengage from Iraq;
2. will institute immediately a universal healthcare system (single payer, probably, but possibly on the Dutch and German systems);
3. will actually engage in stopping the flood across the Mexican/US border.
That candidate will probably touch on the Fascist applications of the present Administration.
That candidate will probably touch on the presently misused word “lobbying” which really means “bribery”.
That candidate will probably touch on the fact that a small percentage of the US population has a great deal too much power and influence and will address reducing that power and influence.
The voters are probably subconsciously skittish about another damned dynastic presidency too.
We are probably going to be stuck with H Clinton as the Candidate. Both Giuliani and Romney will beat her!
james @ 218
The emphasized statement above is not true — Social Security will not cease to exist for those currently working.
What is going to happen is that at some time in the next 30 years (the date varies depending on who you is speaking about it) Social Security will have to pay out more in benefits than it is taking in.
There is a simple fix for this — raise the cap on wages subject to the OASDI tax, which is currently $97,000 per year.
Having worked for Social Security for the first 3 years I was a Federal employee, I get a little tired of hearing scare tactic statements regarding the program’s potential demise…
The only way that will happen is if the government stops collecting the OASDI taxes. Now, do you really think that’s likely?
Scarecrow @ 34
Eyes-roll… wondering if you are typing this with a straight-face — ? Or you think we, and the KO watchers know so little of HRC that we would accept her platitudes and waste of air-time. My question, ‘who’ invited her on? Don’t worry I don’t expect you to answer.
That’s a pretty cheap shot. But it’s good that you get it out so everyone knows where you stand exactly.
Thanks, Scarecrow, for providing that critical and fair analysis of Clinton’s interview. I understand why she voted the way she did on Lieberman-Kyl. For what it’s worth, Cheney has always maintained that he does not feel that it is necessary to get Congressional approval to go to war. It is easy for us (and them) to use this resolution as an excuse. But not passing it would hardly stop them. The resolution was little more than a non-binding “opinion”. That’s not a hall pass to nuke Iran nor should it be interpreted to mean that force is the only option in dealing with Iran.
I don’t remember her excluding any countries from her scrutiny. I think we can trust that she is much more tuned in to the world than the current occupant and certainly more than her opponents would have us believe. But you can’t cover everything in a 10 minute interview. Kudos to Keith for a good interview.
pma @ 154
The Republicans have found that venomspewing is the way to get the Clintons to do whatever the Republicans want them to.
CheckingIn @ 238
You seem to be making some interesting assumptions about what I think. The post doesn’t say that what Hillary said would/should be acceptable to those likely to watch KO. I make no assumptions about whether anyone here would accept/reject “her platitudes” etc. And my guess is that anyone who regularly shows up at FDL and watches KO is extremely well informed of her positions. As for my facial expression, it’s never particularly revealing.
scarecrow @ 240
Interesting… that’s the name of the game — isn’t it? Which is why it would have helped if you expanded on your benign comment. I think we all grasped the fact that she wanted her mugshot on TV, but to say that she “wanted to address concerns” is pushing it — big time! Here anyways…
Political Poker player eh…
Clinton shakes her head side to side a.k.a. shakes her head “no” as she speaks, even for positive things she is saying. She should lose that.
.
pluege @ 242
She looked a little flagged to me yesterday. Not as crisp as usual. But I still thought she did well.
And I hate to give any woman fashion advice (because they are adults and they can handle this themselves) but if I were Hillary, I would stay away from black near the face. It makes her look washed out and fatigued. A warm color in a coral hue looks good on just about everyone. Keep a spare blouse in the campaign bus.
I’m sorry, Scarecrow, but what basic facts suggest that she would be a formidable candidate?
I say again; the reason the democrats are in a position to make some huge political gains two Novembers from now, is a four-letter-word:
Iraq.
And I would respectfully ask you to tell us how you think a politician who doesn’t even think it was a mistake to invade Iraq, is going to be a “formidable candidate”.
Scarecrow @ 13
SC I disagree across the board, but moreso on her ‘bravery’ . . . she’s ambitious, she’s out to gain back a legacy stained by a blue dress which is likely more important to her than the needs of the masses are, and she’s a total lackey and tool of the militarized, politicized war machine.
She ain’t brave, she’s a ad woman for big biz. Nothing more.
You can’t SPIN this candidate to me, to make it work. She’s a shill for the elite 1%.
Health care coverage is worthless without access to the care.
We need HEALTH CARE guarenteed for every person, not phreakin coverage . . .
Break the pharma.
Break the back of corporate healthcare.
Break the back of the war machine.
Strengthen the backs of the working men and women. Invest in our people, infrastructure and our future.
The rest of the world can take care of itself, and our nuke supply will keep them from attacking us here, instead of overthere.
Scarecrow @ 181
Did you ever get punched in the nose on a playgorund? Did you ever PUNCH a bully in the nose, on a playground?
THAT’S respect. Fighting for your beliefs.
This respect thing you and others in here bandy about is for the lordly rulers who write the history they want written, in a grand fashion.
Like those who claim criticism of Shilary is gender based. Huh. Crock.
The phreakin reality’s of our lives are writ in our daily struggles, our daily challenges, and how we stand up for ourselves.
You don’t GIVE respect, you don’t ENFORCE respect, you bloody noses and you EARN respect. Especially when you are under siege.
It’s MUCH easier to accord respect in times of peace, but we are SO not in a time of peace, at home or in the world.
So I’ll disagree with your call for PC respect as a blanket condition. If you don’t pheakin mind, that is . . ;-)
Twain @ 48
Then, why does she continue the hawkish statements and votes?
There are a lot of subtle differences in statements and votes which would have large impacts when one is president.
Plus, we feel pretty confident a Dem is going to win the presidency, so fighting it out tooth and nail in the primary is the BIG fight.
My sentiment was towards helping people, but if you ask a Constitutional scholar you will find he completely violated the law. And, the Bushies used that in part to support their argument for going to war in Iraq. No Kosovo, no Bush argument for Iraq.
On top of that there was a lot of discussion with the public and they hated the idea of ‘going to war’ in Kosovo. But, Bill went anyway. He wanted to be a “war president”.
It’s hard to know since so much of that fight is in the shadows and we weren’t informed about a lot of it.
But, going back to the 1980s the people ‘in the know’ knew about
bin Laden. It wasn’t entirely unfamiliar until the ’90s.
In a semi-famous congressional committee hearing Al Gore asked Ollie North who the most dangerous man in the world was and North said bin Laden. That was in the ’80s. Gore asked, who bin Laden was.
I tend to disagree. If you’re running to be president, then run to be president. If you’re running to not be accused of being ’soft’, then you’re just posturing. Which would you prefer from a candidate? Someone who is honest and sincere or someone who is so weak they can’t be honest and sincere and just posture?
But, if we don’t fight it out now, then we get stuck with Hillary by default of ‘being too nice and soft and squishy’. What happens then if she loses? What would that make us? Idiots?
selise @ 74
I agree and more.
Her ’solution’ to the mortgage crisis was to offer a $1 billion bail out to the lenders, but nothing for the home owners.
Her approach to every problem is the more conservative one and is usually aimed at helping businesses before individuals.
I think it might stem from the fact that her father was a small business owner AND a Republican. She’s probably heard the small-government fiscal conservatism argument her whole life.
Right now we have a lot of imbalance in the wealth of this nation and the way it’s distributed. I think we need structural changes which will slow or begin to fix that problem. I don’t see Hillary going up against any of the entrenched capitalistic forces which like things the way they are. Oddly, just tonight, I heard on Bill Moyer’s show a discussion about the markets and this imbalance. Even the Rich are coming to realize that an unregulated financial industry is a danger to us all. Would Hillary go up against the Capitalists? I doubt it. She likes their money too well.
Has she said recently that she pledged not to change the health care system until her SECOND term? I think money from the health care industry might slow our progress and how many people will die or suffer because of it?
John Edwards has said he would increase the minimum wage even further than Congress has already mandated. Would Hillary?
Her desire to balance the budget again seems sincere and would be nice. But, how can we ever get the big structural changes to start rebalancing our economy by letting EVERYONE share in the nation’s profitability if all we’re going to do is pay off debts the Republicans can always rack up again the next time they get the presidency? We need MORE while there’s a chance, else we’ll just be in debt every time a Republican takes office. They’re using it as a tool to limit what Democrats want in the way of social spending or other economic reforms.
Hillary isn’t the devil and I never said she was. She’s much better than Bush & Co. But, she’s also not the solution to our current problems.
No one on here has put up any logical basis for Clinton winning the general election. She is despised by a large segment of our voting population, and disliked by more of them.
IF she wins the nomination, we will have a candidate running in the election who doesn’t believe that invading Iraq was a mistake.
Do any of her supporters (that 10% :o) ) on here think that 13 months from now she, or any other candidate, can be elected, who doesn’t believe, and isn’t SAYING, that Iraq was a mistake?
That means she can’t capitalize on the issue which is driving americans away from the republicans and toward the democrats. If she tries, the REPUBLICANS will make her eat that authorizing vote, along with all the other statements which are identical or close to what the bushheads have been saying.
One more time: can someone list the points on which she disagrees with bush, regarding Iraq?
She supported the surge, until, shortly after bush implemented it, there were polls showing how a clear majority of americans opposed it, at which point she found her inner antiwar self.
Not having the “infighting” means that we roll over and play dead for Hillary, instead of debating about her positions, as well as those of the other candidates. That is not what we need. We need an honest, open, no-holds-barred discussion of all the issues, but especially, the most important one, Iraq…and that’s the one which, as we saw with Olberman’s interview, she doesn’t want to talk about.
Phyllis Culbert @ 97
It all depends upon what you mean by “take us out of this mess”. If you only mean ‘out of Iraq’, then she very well might do that the same way Obama or Edwards would. But, she has also said we need to be prepared for ‘the next war’. Just how belligerent does she need to make her political rhetoric toward Iran? Is it productive or destructive? Is it honest and sincere or just weak posturing?
As for other aspects of what Bush has done: the divisiveness of politics will remain as the Republicans feel they can’t win elections by competing head-up on issues with democrats — they’ll make it divisive if they have to pretend to be Attila the Hun to stir up anti-Dem hatred among their electorate; the use of deficit spending will return as soon as a Republican Congress or president returns — it’s their way of holding government down in the bathtub, so liberals can’t do anything with it; the over-use of the military will return with Repubs as that’s their tool to waste money. What’s Hillary’s solution? Pay off the debt? What does that do in the long run? Republicans can always spend more in the future!
What we need are large structural changes which Republicans can’t wipe away in just 4 years of wasteful spending.
We need an increase in the minimum wage. Will Hillary do that?
We need help for homeowners and their crazy mortgages. All Hillary offered was for lenders.
We need improved infrastructure (bridges, roads, etc.) and I think Hillary will go for that because businesses will benefit. Other Dems would do that too.
We need to fix New Orleans. I haven’t heard Hillary on it, but I know Edwards wants to do it.
We need health care reform. Hillary said, wait til the second term. Edwards said within the first month he’d have a bill in Congress.
We need retirement systems reform to protect people from bankrupt companies. It’s hard to say which support that, but I can’t see Hillary doing anything like that since it would pinch businesses.
We need fair trade international deals. Would Hillary really change NAFTA, CAFTA or other deals to hinder businesses? I feel certain the more lefty Dems (like Edwards, Dodd or Kucinich) would seek to protect workers and improve international worker safety and environmental safety laws within the international trade deals.
In all these areas Edwards continually talks about people while Hillary talks about business interests. I’ll vote for Edwards.
Twain @ 107
I don’t think Hillary is evil or vile. I think she’s a lovely person. She’s smart, well experienced and has put up with a lot of crap from Republicans.
However, that doesn’t qualify her to be president.
I’m looking for someone to solve a lot of very big problems and all her solutions tend to be beneficial to business interests and not individuals. Well, businesses have been benefiting big time for quite a while now and it’s the individuals whose incomes haven’t really risen (in real terms) since about 1980 who are hurting. Her solutions don’t interest me.
I’m voting for John Edwards.
Scarecrow @ 152
How can you say that using ‘additional federal revenues’ for her savings plan is not stealing monies from Social Security? Social Security monies are taken all the time for general revenue spending. They’re given treasury notes in return. Shouldn’t any ‘additional federal revenues’ be refunded to Social Security to make it whole (a la Al Gore’s lock box)?
Sure, Republican economists who want to destroy Social Security by pushing people toward individual savings account (like Bush proposed). They want to put that money (which rightfully belongs in Social Security) into mutual funds to pump up the stock market. Don’t expect it to stay there though. The old pump & dump trick will wring it right out and it’ll fall right into the pockets of Wall Street operators.
Hillary is ever so willing to help the Rich and their business interests.
But, if you take that much money and put it into the stock market we have to ask several big questions: will it be invested in America’s corporate infrastructure to build industry or will it just be a big balloon which gets punctured like the dot.com balloon burst in early 2000? Who will steal that money?
You can’t just throw money at the Market. It has to be related to business investment.
A big part of our economy today is how to encourage wealth formation for families as well as the ultra-Rich and corporations. If you can’t sequester that wealth the retail industry will just raise their prices and soak it up. It won’t remain separate from your pocket money. Also, if you can’t protect it from pump & dump schemes in the Stock & Bond Markets, then it just gets stolen by market operators.
If we want people to have wealth we can build with the government (health care reform, infrastructure, minimum wage, help unions, better international trade deals, etc.) and we can try to find ways to let people build personal wealth that doesn’t get stolen (as happened with homes and crazy mortgages).
John Edwards always puts individuals first, so I trust his world view more than Hillary’s.
Tom @ 180
Then you would be wrong. I never supported Nader. I supported Jerry Brown and Ross Perot, never voted for Clinton and still don’t like DLC Dems who support corporations before individuals.
BTW, are you saying you support Hillary BECAUSE she might want to go to war with Iran? Bizarre.
I believe in a civil discussion, so calling Hillary opponents GOP trolls is just gauche.
Okay then, so we can count on your vote for John Edwards!
United Democrats for Edwards!
“She does what has to be done to get elected”
Agreed; and that includes sucking up to the republicans to the point that she won’t condemn the decision to invade Iraq, and won’t apologize for her support of that decision.
And for anyone thinks her handcuffing herself on going after bush and the GOP on Iraq in the general election is doing “what has to be done to get elected”, then I’d like to sell them a political candidate, cheap.
She cannot be elected, and for the severalnth time, no one on here has talked about any voting demographics which indicate anything to the contrary.
Her natural constituency, the progressive wing of the party, does not see her as a desirable candidate. Check OUR 2300 votes (which was and excellent Idea to ask for, Jane) and then give some thought to what republicans and independents and conservative democrats will do.
It is a dead lock: if she wins the democratic nomination, the republican turnout will be MUCH larger than if Edwards or Obama is our nominee. And the GOP’rs, as well as the independents, will be snorting fire, to try to keep her out of the white house.
Douglas @ 209
That’s debatable.
Do you support her vote for the flag burning bill or her vote for the Iraq war or her vote for the Kyl-Lieberman amendment?
Absolutely!
If we don’t fight it out now we might be shocked by the loss of our candidate in the general election campaign.
Whichever candidate can win this knock-down drag-out primary should breeze through the general election.
But, worst would be to let Hillary win by default of being the most well-known person. That’s certainly no way to pick a president.
Are you saying it’s unfair to disclose a candidate’s statements, votes and policy positions and to compare them to other candidates or other optional possibilities?
What has been unfair about our criticisms of Hillary? Isn’t she up to a good fight? Is she too weak to take it?
John Edwards for president — Strong Leadership for America
jayackroyd @ 221
I heard Obama speak on C-SPAN yesterday and his position on Iraq sounded almost verbatim the same as Edwards. They both want all combat troops out, to be kept in Kuwait or somewhere else nearby, except for those needed to defend the embassy.
What’s not clear about that?
Tanbark @ 244
THAT is a powerful argument.
Could she even answer the question, “Are we safer for having overthrown Saddam Hussein?”
Iraq has been an unmitigated disaster and Hillary doesn’t seem to recognize that. So, how is she qualified to be president?
This is good to finally see this discussion taking place on here. Great thread, Thank you SC.
I watched the KO piece and I liked his little snicker at the end when she obviously dodged his Gore question. She’s very masterful at that.
Every time I hear her speak about her “new” programs, I’m always am astounded that they are the very same programs bush proposes. The.very.same.thing. “American Retirement Accounts”….. we have that; Social Security. Just do it better, will ya. Even the SCHIP “new program”…. we have that; Medicaid. Just modify that to include the children SCHIP would cover. We have the money to do that.
What she wants is more of how we got our Health Scare Industry, which she is almost directly to blame for. Insurance companies should be insurance companies not running our lives, not driving everyone to the doctor and keeping them in a cycle of doctor’s visits for whatever designer illness will drive the stock up of the big pharma’s. I’m sick to death of this scam. Why is everyone so sick? She’s driven the Insurance aspect, and will drive it even bigger than it is.
OKay, do better at administering Social Security, Medicare, and expand Medicaid and stop trying privatize all these essential SERVICES. We already pay for them. Now, they argue these programs are out of money to scare us into thinking we need a NEW program, which will also be mismanaged and robbed to fund …. killing people for oil and arms deals.
Which is of course at the heart of everything: Iraq. Hillary Clinton was for the war then, she is now, and she will be. No matter how she spins her voting record, she is for the war. Period. She’s a calculating, ruthless, shrewd, manipulative pro-war candidate on the same course as bush and the neocons. There’s no mistake on that.
Although I agree that universal health care, etc. are needed for security, one of the best ways of insuring economic security, stengthening our communities and eliminating our vast income disparity is to replace “free” trade with FAIR trade.
Our nation only has need to import commodities that we cannot grow or extract. Any other class of import is unnecessary and only weakens the nation.
Rebuilding the manufacturing base is the only way to assure a strong nation on all fronts.
Without doing this fundamental strengthening of our communities we will fade into a second rate power.
If labor and environmental standards are meaningless in trade agreements then there is a six letter word that will guarantee compliance: TARIFF.
I’ve yet to hear Ms. Clinton or, for that matter, Barack Obama address this issue. I really haven’t heard anyone address this issue.
They all talk about job training.
Just what the hell is that? What do you train a 55 year old worker to do when his/her job has been outsourced or the plant that employed him closes up and rebuilds in China?
I’ve been contributing as much as I can to the Edwards campaign on the off chance that an Edwards administration could possibly be convinced to take a realistic approach to our decimated manufacturing base. But I haven’t really heard much from The Edwards campaign on this critical issue.