(”Home,” by Iggy Pop.)
This morning, Scarecrow wrote a powerful, passionate post on the swift-boating of Graeme Frost and his family:
The Republicans in Congress have argued that if a 12 year old expresses a view on a public issue, he and his family are “fair game,” allowing the meanest of their supporters to investigate his family, expose their personal finances, publish their addresses and phone numbers (thus implicitly inviting right wing morons to harass and intimidate these people).
. . . So exactly what it is about expressing such an opinion that turns this child or millions like him and their families into “fair game” for mean-spirited attacks, invasions of privacy, public exposure and threatening intimidation?
Ezra Klein eloquently expressed a similar sentiment on Tuesday:
This is the politics of hate. Screaming, sobbing, inchoate, hate. It would never, not in a million years, occur to me to drive to the home of a Republican small business owner to see if he “really” needed that tax cut. It would never, not in a million years, occur to me to call his family and demand their personal information. It would never occur to me to interrogate his neighbors. It would never occur to me to his smear his children.
Ironically, though, this shock is being expressed at the same time that progressives are applauding a separate effort to make someone pay a personal price for their public, political actions (or lack of them). It started with this passage in the Washington Post:
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi was in a determinedly good mood when she sat down to lunch with reporters yesterday. . . . But her spirits soured instantly when somebody asked about the anger of the Democratic “base” over her failure to end the war in Iraq.
“Look,” she said, the chicken breast on her plate untouched. “I had, for five months, people sitting outside my home, going into my garden in San Francisco, angering neighbors, hanging their clothes from trees, building all kinds of things — Buddhas? I don’t know what they were — couches, sofas, chairs, permanent living facilities on my front sidewalk.”
Unsmilingly, she continued: “If they were poor and they were sleeping on my sidewalk, they would be arrested for loitering, but because they have ‘Impeach Bush’ across their chest, it’s the First Amendment.“
Though opposed to the war herself, Pelosi has for months been a target of an antiwar movement that believes she hasn’t done enough.
Digby’s response: “They’re citizens. And you work for them. That inconvenient first amendment was put in the constitution so you wouldn’t forget that.” Just an hour and a half ago, Markos wholeheartedly concurred.
Now, I understand that the Speaker of the House is a far more public person than a 12-year-old who happens to appear in a radio address, and that a war that has cost many thousands of lives stirs deep passions more plausibly than a piece of domestic legislation. But isn’t there at least a bit of a contradiction here?
Let’s suppose, just for the sake of discussion, that there’s a legitimate line to be drawn between Michelle Malkin stalking the Frosts at home and Code Pink protesting in front of Chez Pelosi. Where, exactly, should we draw it?
Whose home is off limits? And whose is truly “fair game”?
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I coulda been first.
But silly me, I had to read it
SWOPA!
LOL, Lookie there oddball, #1.
WooHoo….
Are the tubes clogged?
The law does actually draw a distinction between a public and a private person. A private person has privacy rights that a public figure does not have.
That aside, I don’t think anyone is making the argument that what the right is doing to Frost is illegal. It’s just fucking immoral as hell.
The Nazis have a right to march through Skokie. That doesn’t make it the right thing to do.
They are amoral until it is time to tell us how to behave.
You could call me an angry, frustrated and disgruntled Democrat. And I won’t take offense. And I don’t like Nancy, Harry or Hillary.
We’re not saying she’s engaged in fraud.
She did get to her position as speaker honestly.
I don’t really care about her house, as long as it belongs to her (or her husband) and not some company she got a contract for.
And we know what we’re paying her.
(I wouldn’t take up residence in front of her house, even as a protest – it’s an insult to the neighbors – but picketing is okay.)
This has been a very politically sobering year for this Democrat. Pelosi, Reid and Hillary are trying to lock us out. Impeach Pelosi.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 7
Go see my comment #45, in the “Not Ready to Make Nice” thread earlier today…I think you might enjoy it. *g*
Sounds to me like the protesters are doing the right thing. Speaker Pelosi needs to stop needless war and put impeachment on the table,
accept Budda and a new couch in the spirit intended.And as for you Harry, I am not permitted to make reference to ‘tar and feathers’.
Jane’s right. Nancy’s a public figure. The Frosts are private citizens who were exercising their 1st Amendment right to petition the government and speak out.
Also, going to the Frosts home accomplishes nothing politcally. Going to Nancy Pelosi’s home may well impact her votes in the future.
Oh, and Nancy is not 12 years-old, nor is she suffering physical ailments due to a severe car accident
I was somewhat dismayed with the Pelosi quote. I know she has a tough row to hoe, and, as Fielding noted “Gratitude is the rarest of Emotions”. She has been a power player for a while, has possibly succumbed to the Stockholm Syndrome of much of the Official Democratic Party, and might just not realize those folks are part of her constituency.
Tross @ 13
I agree. Hey, Tross, where have you been? Was thinking about you yesterday.
It seems very clear to me. If you are an elected official, your privacy has been given up. We use all kinds of personal information to make decisions about whether to elect someone (e.g. if Sen. Craig was running again, knowing that he was arrested in a bathroom sex sting would certainly effect voters choice) so they have a lower standard. This is especially true when the perception is that they are not listening to the voters.
But for people that comment on politics, going to their home or business is over the line. It is the difference between 15 minutes of fame and living in the public lime light.
Public or private citizens need some sort of sanctuary unless they are living in buildings on public property such as the White House. I thought that camping out at Rove’s was wrong also.
Pelosi is a huge disappointment…I find her remarks patronizing…she, in my opinion, has not been responsible to the American people in the execution of her position, and she sounds very patronizing.
The only thing, I’m thinking might have been a smart move, is the Armenian genocide vote…Turkey has just withdrawn their ambassador, and the crucial use of bases in Turkey is in jeopardy…this could put a real dent in the ability to continue the Iraq occupation.
Oh my heart
bleedsstews for NancyMy heart steams for the Frost
LS @ 10
Just did. We are in trouble. Mr. Gore. Help us.
The thing lots of people don’t get is that you can’t let others determine how you behave. That the Repubs swiftboat doesn’t mean the Dems should do it. Unfortunately swiftboating is effective and one can get carried down the tube by one’s scruples.
The Nazis have a right to march through Skokie. and for them it is the right thing to do.Their problem is with their choosing to be Nazis, but it’s difficult to grapple with their special madness.
I don’t think the public vs private distinction addresses the question. The fact I am private, that is not widely known, doesn’t justify anyone picketing my house, but I guess if they want to, it is their right. I think, though she disappointed me a lot, it makes no sense to hassle Pelosi. It’s like name calling. It’s anyone’s right, but it isn’t argument.
Well, I’ve been kinda cheering for the folks who protest in front of Miss McConnell’s home in Louisville, so protestors in front of madame Speaker’s home should be acceptable, so long as the laws are followed and the protestors stay on public property.
I do have a lot of heartburn about folks protesting (or stalking in La Malkin’s actions) the family of private citizens such as the Frosts.
Apples and oranges.
If you are a politician, especially a high profile one you are fair game. You will be voting on issues that affect the public…who you work for because you chose to run for public office.
A 12 year old private citizen is obviously off limits. The only reason the wing-nuts went after him is that they are bullies and cowards. They perceive the child and his family as weak and so easy for them to attack.
8 hours and 45 minutes until the Nobel Peace Prize is announced.
Good gawd. Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, Joe Lieberman, Hillary Clinton, the DLC.
JPL @ 24
Someone over on Kos wrote that he has canceled a trip to China, and is going to appear at a Senator Boxer event this evening at 8PM.
And Harold Ford Jr. and Rahm Emanuel. Too.
Miss McConnell’s didn’t think the Frost family was off-limits.
link
People are dying and the Speaker hides from her constituents even through the entire Aug. recess. Those who work for stopping war always receive more criticism for incivility than those who start or maintain war.
LS @ 26
The award is announced tomorrow but the actual ceremony takes place at a later date.
Last year, my right winger Brother started going on about how bad the Democrats were and how if they won the House “Nancy Pelosi would be the Speaker!”. I asked him if he had any particular thing he disliked about the Congresswoman, and he couldn’t name a thing, it was just her name was a scare word on the winger radio he listens to. And , oh, she was from San Francisco. I said she was a moderately liberal (but quite pro-military and -business)congressperson.
I suspect she doesn’t look so scary to him now.
Which is a pity. It’s like Bill Clinton being the scary Liberal and Hillary being the scary Radical. It’s all the pr of the Right.
If the vote on Turkey was actually an antiwar measure, it was worthy of Sun Tzu.
OT..
Republican sources confirmed Thursday that Rep. Ralph Regula (R-Ohio) will announce his retirement imminently, perhaps as soon as Friday. A Regula spokesman would not confirm the retirement announcement, saying the 18-term Congressman has made no such public announcement.
link
Pelosi is part of the federal government. Last I looked, the Bill of Rights still said we had a right of petition to the government.
Also, last I looked, the Frosts were NOT part of the federal government.
Spot the difference.
1,623 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Swopa and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
Since January of this year we have learned jest how corrupted the Democratic Party leadership is and nowhere is it more evident than in Pelosi’s condescendin’ chagrin at grass roots folks puttin’ the heat on the representatives they elected to represent them. This disarticulation of the Democratic Party leadership from it’s populist base happened in the last American war of empire when the leadership of the Democratic Party shot it’s own children in the streets of Chicago because they had the temerity to oppose a war those same kids were bein’ told by their party ta go die in.
I really thought that there was some degree of separation between Pelosi and the Stenny Hoyer-Rahm Emmanuel nexus but if we take a closer look, Pelosi is a real slick corporatist enabler. She’s an anti-choice Catholic, daughter of a Philadelphia machine politician who’s married ta a big time banker wheeler-dealer. Her attitude towards those who would deign to oppose her reflects her sense of noblesse obliege and her attitude about the relationship of common folks to power.
The most dangerous opponent in the people’s battle for American democracy is with the elected leadership of the Democratic Party, not with the incompetent nincompoops who run the Republicrat Party.
KEEP THE FAITH AND KEEP TELLIN’ IT LIKE IT IS!!
JPL @ 17
This is pretty much where I fall, too.
Although I daresay if Pelosi were a tad more accessible to the public, she might not have campers there.
(Really thought. Picket, then go home. I actually should think she’d be able to clear them off at night as long as they came back the next day. It’s not just her, it’s also the neighbors who did NOT sign up to be public figures nor live next to one, I’d imagine.)
We are “advocates”, they are “leaders”. Talk about an ego trip….therein lies the problem…I thought she was a “Representative” of “We the People of the United States of America”.
Is Pelosi being threatened or libeled/slandered by the people protesting at her house?
If so, the protesters have crossed the line and are acting like the flying monkeys.
If not, they’re being annoying, possibly trespassing, but it’s hardly in the same league as the anti-Frost smears.
Pelosi has “too much to lose”….Cindy Sheehan has “nothing more to lose”…go Cindy Sheehan.
I find Pelosi’s remarks about her irritation at finding Code Pink in front of her home in SF rather narcissistic. Again she has confirmed that she cares nothing about the people in the Dem party.
Is it “her” sidewalk?
And in the message boards of the WaPo article about the Condemnation of the Ottoman genocide against the Kurds, wingers are suggesting that it is a stab in the back against the troops.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..ents.html#
One ‘nationfather’ wrote:
Bugagagagaga!!!! Perfect!!! Brilliant!!! USA doing everithing to lose Turkey and Azerbaidjan allies. Great!!! Turkey controling Bosfor and Dardanelli – it is gates for Russia. 3/4 whole fligth to Iraq USA military making from Turkey territory. Turkey have access to Black sea. Turkey have access to Georgia that have many problems with Russia. Azerbaidjan – can create alternative Russian oil-pipelines. Azerbaidjan have Russian anti-missiles radar on their territory. These countries have access to Iran borders. I hate Lantos, except for today. Turkey wants to aggress against Kurdistan – most stable part of Iraq and strongest ally community of USA. Buagagagagagaga. Lantos, I was born in Russia. Today I LOVE YOU!!! It was impossible to see Gates today. It was similar that this is ready to cry after this resolution. Turkey already decideded to buy Russian C-400 to replays Patriots. Tank you America that resolution!!! I didnt wait such present from you!
Hi all.
Jane, what DOES make someone a “public” person?
It is beyond sad that they feel the need to go after these people, especially children.
What does that speak to you in the long view look?
It says to me that the rats are feeling cornered,
that it is perfectly acceptable to slander a twelve year old child.
Pretty desperate acts IMO.
Any self-respecting Progressive would not support Hillary Clinton for president.
“Hillary Clinton remains for the war in Iraq, for so-called “free trade” agreements and for the death penalty. She supported the notorious 2001 bankruptcy bill, “has never been for single-payer health insurance” and has worked hard to undermine a host of other progressive positions.”
“In the interests of truth-in-labeling, shouldn’t Hillary Clinton be described as anti-progressive?”
Despite a dip in foreclosures last month, it appears unlikely that the wave of bad loans that have forced record numbers from their homes will peak any time soon. And despite efforts by lenders, politicians and homeowners to stem the tide, borrowers trying to work out better loan terms and save their homes face a thicket of red tape.
Maybe we could ask TSF very nicely to go over and snap a few photos..) I hope the couch is pink.
Nancy is inconvenienced by demonstrators at her home. Iraqis are inconvenienced by the destruction of their country and the murders of a million of their own.
Screw Pelosi. She has no backbone or moral conviction. Her inconvenience is a small price to pay for her lack of fortitude.
there’s legal and illegal.
there public figures and private persons.
but that wasn’t the point i was making earlier.
there’s also a difference between peaceful protest and harrassment.
on the one hand – there’s going to a person’s place of work and bothering coworkers and bosses, or a person’s school, or making threats, telling lies to a national audience, or behaving in a threatening and scarey way outside a person’s home.
on the other hand – there’s peaceful protest and street theater.
i’d hate having protesters outside my house too. but if they were behaving like the code pink protesters, then in my book they’re not doing anything wrong.
(p.s. i don’t use my real name for a reason – the little bit of hate mail i got for organizing buses to anti-iraq war protests was enough for me. i’d rather have protesters partying outside my house)
Eureka Springs @ 45
lol. Me too!!
I think going to a public figure’s home is going too far. Families and neighbors of the public figures have rights too. If someone was outside my house on the sidewalk protesting, it would upset me to no end.
Fair game should be picketing their offices, calling them at work and organizing groups is one thing. Sitting outside their house to me is an invasion of privacy that I would not condone or commit.
As far as the Frost’s go, they need to be left alone. Voicing a public opinion shouldn’t make you fair gamefor those who havea publicpulpitto tear you to pieces. However, it seems that it is much easier to tear down the defenseless than to defend the travesty of denying health care to children.
FWIW, everybody’s home is off-limits! Period!
Public figures do have “less” privacy rights, as Jane remarked, but I would say that privacy at home is universal, and mandatory.
There are far more “opportunities” to protest a public figure than a private person because of the very fact that these figures are “public”.
Protest Nancy at her office, protest her at her public speeches, protest her at any of her public venues, but leave her home alone.
A number of years ago ACT UP, an organization founded by gays to fight the aids horror, without any notice completely blocked the Golden Gate Bridge during a very busy time of day. The rage I heard from callers the next day on the radio was really something. One man missed the birth of his first child and a woman had to cancel surgery. It wasn’t long after that event that ACT UP dropped out of the news. I don’t know if they still exist or not. Did they have the right to block the bridge?
There is a world of difference between the SPeaker of the House and some 12 year old kid.
1) The Speaker ran for not one, but two simultaneous public offices: her Cong. seat and the Speakership. She is clearly a public figure nad has put herself out there.
2) As a federal official, if she believes there is even a whiff and danger to herself or her family (of even if the FBI decides on it’s own that there might be a dnager); a full blown, very epensive “Threat Assesment” investiagtion will be done. If any actual threat is confirmed, Speaker Pelosi and/or members of her family, as appropriate to the percieved threat, will be given a security detail. An armed security detail, all at government expense.
On the Other Hand
1)The Frost family are private citizens who exercised their free speech rights in a public forum on an intermittent basis (case law says 15 minutes of famr usually does not equal being apublic figure)
2) they are not entitled to either a threat assasment or a secuirty detail, no matter how much danger they are in.See, Cuffy v. Citry of New York.
All that having been said, the proper place to protest is in front of anyone of her offices, if only out of consideration for her neighbors, who are private citizens as well.
Twain @ 51
Completely different.
The people on the bridge did not facilitate the deaths of thousands.
A Short History of the Republican Party:
1863: “Four score and seven years ago…”
1973: “I am not a crook.”
2005: “Your friend looks like he’s in great shape.”
2007: “Sick 12 year olds are fair game.”
Why does the leadership of the Marines want to leave Iraq and go to Afghanistan?? There are about 25,000 Marines in Iraq. Gates is against it. Hmmmmmm…Afghanistan is on the other side of Iran. I dunno if that is it. Sorry for the OT, but it is unusual. It may be a good thing, it might not. Is it a rebellion somehow?
Mad Dogs @ 50
I agree, but that line of thinking comes from common sense, which seems to on the endangered list.
This came up in Anchorage late last week. One of the people named as having been bribed by ex-VECO President Bill Allen, state Representative John Cowdery, will not be attending the upcoming special session designed to correct the faults of the bribery-induced oil taxation law now in effect, because the governor asked him not to attend. A GOP guy who wants to replace Cowdery and some others organized a vigil outside Cowdery’s house. When a rightwing radio personality found out about it, the other rightwing guy was criticized, and the whole thing began taking on aspects of sub-Arctic farce by mid-afternoon.
The whole thing got dumped down the local memory hole over the weekend, as both GOP nuts write for the Anchorage Daily News and have other media presences in this
inc*stuousclosely-knit media environment.i don’t remember anyone complaining that cindy sheehan and friends had no right to be camping beside the road to bush’s home in crawford tx, on the off chance they could protest as president bush drove by.
1,623 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Firepup Freedom Fighters:
We are seein’ the same dynamic happenin’ between the Democratic Party leadership and it’s populist base as happened in 1968…namely, the party bosses and elected leadership have been so removed from their voting constituencies and become so dependant on their FUNDING constituencies that they can not follow the lead of the popular majority without losin’ favor with monied class. It’s all about followin’ the money, honey…I think the movie V For Vendetta is more prescient than I first thought.
We are doin’ the right thing, now all we gotta do is start showin’ up at a few more Democratic politicians’ doorsteps and take a few more hikes down the streets outside the convention halls of power but most of all, we must put the heat on the DEMOCRATS…the Republicans are irrelevant.
KEEP THE FAITH WHAT KEN THEY DO TA US THAT THEY HAVEN’T ALREADY??!!
marymccurnin @ 53
”
No, of course not, but I was asking about demonstrations. Frankly, I have never decided if ACT UP was doing the right thing or not. We are talking about people being “in your face” and affecting others. I do know the difference, thank you.
Mad Dogs @ 50
that’s a little difficult when she:
1) spends no time at her district office
2) refuses to meet with constituents
3) does not conduct town hall meetings
4) keeps her schedule under wraps so even her constituents have trouble finding out when she may be appearing in public.
Maybe I am too frustrated or angry agree that Nancy’s house is off limits. If she lived next door to me I would take the demonstrators lemonade.
Dead people
Damaged people
A country destroyed
Treasury looted
and they want to do it again.
We should be in front of all of their homes including that big white one in DC.
http://thinkprogress.org/
my #57 just got freed – on topic…
Twain @ 15
Mostly lurking lately. But I’m never far from The Lake.
Hope all’s good in your neck of the woods.
TexBetsy @ 42
An Elected Official is a primary legal distinction… Aloha, Ya’ll!!!
Pelosi, Reid, Rahm, Ford, Clinton, Lieberman, the DLC. Neat and tidy. The fix is in folks.
allan_in_upstate @ 54
Is that a reference to the guy Cheney Shot?
A question I’d like to hear Matt Lauer ask Sen. Craig: Have you ever met or communicated with Mike Jones, the gay escort in Denver who had a relationship of some sort with the Rev. Ted Haggard?
A question I’d like to hear Matt Lauer ask Sen. Craig’s wife: Is your husband bi-sexual or merely gay?
Tross @ 64
Glad you’re here. San Mateo County doing fine – wishing for rain.
hey swopa, are you around or am i just arguing with the ether? you’re too much fun to disagree with… i was hoping for a few rounds *g*
Bustednuckles @ 56
I’m not totally unsympathetic to this view, but I know public people (Zell Miller is one, I’m now ashamed to say) and their ‘homes’ are often in fact part of the family business, used as much for meeting as living. Maybe someone in San Francisco (any Pelosi constituents there?) could tell us if lots of, say, fundraising is going on in the Pelosi manse.
Perhaps taking pictures of the protectors, then post them on the net with any information that can be discerned; names address phone #’s, etc as well as requests for additional information. Then other citizens can express their disgust with them!!! It also makes a handy tool in case something happens; i.e. a list of ready suspects.
selise @ 60
Ahhhh…that’s where just a wee bit of ingenuity comes into play.
Ms. Pelosi kinda has to hang out in at least one specifice place; namely Washington DC, and more specifically the US Congress buildings.
Seems to me that Code Pink wrt Ms. Pelosi could be more “media-effective” if they planned some attention-getting stuff for display in the Capitol.
Ain’t too many of the National Media hanging about Ms. Pelosi’s home, but Washington DC, oh yeah!
Twain @ 70
70% chance of rain tomorrow, slight chance of rain tonight, maybe rain in the middle of next week.
The difference, Swopa, is that if Nancy can’t, won’t or doesn’t want to take the heat, she can get out of the kitchen. The difference is that heat is her political life’s blood. And the difference is that she has been making some very iffy moves as Speaker, bringing things to a vote that maybe should be kicked down the road. It is her own ineffectiveness that is being protested. They are protesting her own personal actions, not just policy differences. If she were to grow enough a spine to play hardball and make some of the other side’s tactics backfire on them or lay down some successful strategy, they would be bringing her flowers and showering her with good will at her home. So, I haven’t much sympathy for poor innocent Nancy.
Don’t forget the good Kentucky citizens who demonstrated outside Mitch McConnells home this Summer.
FighttheFuture @ 73
sorry, protesters!! not “protectors”. Should of just called them “pricks”.
New post upstairs
Sandman @ 68
No – one of Mark Foley’s “overly friendly” text messages.
Mad Dogs @ 74
there’s lots of code pink actions going on in dc too.
do you think her constituents are all supposed to spring for cross coutry plane tickets, hotel rooms, etc in order to protest their very own representative?
it’s not just that speaker pelosi lives in SF – it’s where her constituents also live.
disclaimer – i do think that some of the protesters are not her constituents, but have joined the protest because of her role as speaker.
Like many here, i draw the distinction between a private citizen speaking out and a public official who is making his/her constituents (aka his/her EMPLOYERS) rip their hair out. the former is intimidation and retaliation, the latter direct action to pressure a reclacitrant power.
Recent demonstrations have taken place in PA at Arlen Specter’s Place and in kentucky at Mitch McConnell’s place.
And also to that end, I think camping out at Bill O’Reilly’s place or spreading Malkin’s home address is something that should only be done in a “sauce for the goose” spirit: in other words, if that person does it first, then they’re fair game. Otherwise, they have the same expectation of privacy as anyone else. I believe that both malkin and O’Reilly have in individual cases exposed themselves to this sort of retaliation.
Although legal, I cannot bring myself to believe that protesting, picketing, “camping out”, etc. in front of anybody’s home (private residence) is ever an ethically acceptable thing to do. Policitians have offices and many other means of contact. Use these tools to “petition the government for a redress of grievances”. At least in this sense I think Pelosi’s got a legitimate point.
I’d sure hate it if I found my house picketed every time I said something somebody else disagreed with. My home is the only place I have for a last retreat to peace and quiet.
No matter how “public” a figure you are, in America you still have the right to privacy, in theory at least.
What Malkin et. al. have been doing lately to the Frost family is by no means “civil discourse”; it is the basest of tactics, and despicable. But parking your butt and protesting on the sidewalk in front of Nancy Pelosi’s home, be you her progressive constituent or not, isn’t more than a degree or two of separation away from Malkin, in my eyes.
I don’t think anyone is really trying to destroy Nancy Pelosi either. Nor are they trying to send death threats or intimidate her into shutting up or else.
The protestors in front of Pelosi’s house aren’t inciting hatred,they want this woman to listen to the people she works for. It IS different,by magnitudes.
selise @ 81
Because she is the speaker we are all constituents.
As an aside from the main question in this thread: I noticed that Speaker Pelosi didn’t answer the question she was asked. Maybe her stonewalling attitude has contributed to people choosing to camp outside of her home in order to get her attention.
She needs to more squarely address not only “the base” and her constituents, she needs to more squarely better address the majority of the people of this nation who call themselves Democrats who happen to be in disagreement with what has resulted, or not, from her “leadership”. Maybe then she wouldn’t find herself getting all pissed off having to answer easy questions while she is enjoying a swell lunch.
marymccurnin @ 85
yes.
I don’t recall anybody’s eyebrows raised when Cindy Sheehan pitched a tent down the (private) road from George W’s ranch in TX. Nobody blinks at protests as close as the public can get to the WH; that’s almost a tradition. So, where would you draw the line?
You draw the line where people are getting killed, where IDP’s are flooding from there homes, where Refugee’s are pouring over the border, where arms and legs are in the bazaar, where citizens can disappear, where torture is the right of a single person and anyone he designates, where billions of dollars flow to the rich from the poor and middle class.
Its not even a close call. And with Pelosi running and hiding. Her quotes show her true colors.
Twain @ 70
Looks like rain soon here in Berkeley.
Tross @ 90
I love norcal when it finally rains. I have a kitten who grew up during the drought in the early nineties. When it finally rained she went to the front door to go out. Hissed and then tried the back door. Really made her mad. Now she is 18 and doesn’t care what it is doing inside or out.
But I do think she would protest at Pelosi’s.
The planet is burning, the two wars are on and the next one is coming, the debt is 9 trillion, childrens health care is being vetoed, people making 1 billion a year are paying 15% tax, election fraud is happening, the Supreme Court is stacked and actually voted in a President (states rights justices no less) and Fed judges have been getting appointed like Abu for years, the bridges are falling, prisions are filled with rape and drugs, the President is a liar…
and someone dared stand on her sidewalk?
Aaaargh @ 33
“Congress shall make no law … abridging … the right of the people … to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
selise @ 61
And when you don’t have to opportunity to petition your Rep. at official Federal offices as a concerned patriotic citizen you have to petition in person if given no other choice by your Representative
I’m not saying all the blame rests on her shoulders (looking at Steny Hoyer) as far as what she said about impeachment or the funding of the occupation but she accepted the Constitutional post of Speaker of the House, and as such she has responsibilities, and if she doesn’t feel up to the task, well …
But isn’t there at least a bit of a contradiction here?
No.
Swopa is making the same mistake so many posters are making concerning the right’s attack on the Frosts vis-a-vis the protesters outside Pelosi’s home. The issue is not that people went to the Frost’s home, and that was bad; so it should be considered bad that people went to Pelosi’s home. The issue is what did the people do when they went to each home respectively. There is no comparison between the actions of the people who went to the home of the Frosts and those who went to the home of Pelosi. There is a difference between peacefully protesting and harrassing someone. The people who went to the Frosts home were not peacefully protesting; they have been threatening, intimidating, and invading the Frosts privacy. The same cannot be said of the protesters outside Pelosi’s home.
Late to the party again!
I know we’re in EPU- territory, but Swopa has chosen a great topic.
Pelosi is a representative. That means that part of her job responsibility is to listen to her constituents. If she issues a fiat like “impeachment is off the table,” and when people ask about impeachment, she covers up her ears and says “La la la la la I CAN’T HEAR YOU!” then she invites escalation.
This is completely different from Graeme Frost. Listening to the public and representing them is not in his job description.
I am reminded of an important historical parallel. Back in the late 1970s, when Joe Califano was Secretary of HEW under President Carter, people with disabilities were clamoring for their civil rights, and they were being ignored. So a bunch of wheel-chair users and others camped out on Califano’s front lawn and demanded to be heard. After ignoring them for a while, HE LISTENED. The result was passage of the landmark “Section 504″ legislation that was the precursor of the Americans with Disabilities Act. People who had demonstrated on Califano’s lawn wound up in positions of influence where they could do some good. For example, one of those was Judith Heumann, who subsequently became Assistant Secretary of the Office of Special Education and Rehabilitation Services at the US Department of Education from 1993 to 2001 under Clinton.
Maybe if Speaker Pelosi would listen, people would stop trying to get her attention. However, her adamant refusal to listen just fuels the fire.
Bob in HI
Both parties use people.
Not so very long ago, DailyKos invaded a woman’s life, distributed her personal information to apparently anyone who was interested in joining in the hunt, had scads of fun and entertainment at her expense, and essentially stalked her. People, who didn’t identify themselves to her, contacted real life people in her real life.
No one at Daily Kos took any action to stop it or to inform her of what was happening. When she discovered it and complained, Markos, in his infinite humanity, banned HER from the site, and readers treated her to mocking, ridicule and pure unadulterated hatred.
So any claim to a moral high horse is dead, in my view.
Politics from right to left uses people for their own advancement. And no one stops it.
Even here, many posters use mockery and ad hominem attacks routinely.
Wherever there is a deliberate digression from civil discourse, there is abuse of real life people.
applawz @ 97
is this really true? do you have the links to back it up?
how does that reflect on people here who weren’t involved. if you have a specific complaint about someone here – please make it.
the lack of civil discourse = abuse? not in my book. not by a long shot.
Gee, I’ll go with this: if all you’ve done wrong is had a major medical catastrophe in your family, your house should be left the fuck alone.
Unfortunately, if you are unlucky enough to have a job loss around the time of your medical disaster, or have to buy individual insurance with a “pre-existing condition”, or just unlucky enough to have to pay 20% on a major medical issue, you lose your fucking house. And the only people staking it out will be collection agencies.
This is the real insanity of all this. If you can’t buy health insurance to prevent losing your house, the insurance market is fucking broken. And the GOP wants it that way.
As for applawz: links or it didn’t happen, you crackpot. To claim that the bloggers of the left are equal to the bloggers of the right when it comes to personal attacks is simply a bald-faced lie, as this current issue amply demonstrates. Are you really Lance Dutson? Are you completely unable to distinguish between calling someone a name online and staking out their house? (obviously you are that stupid)
While Republican politicians, conservative commentators and the right-wing blogosphere continued their jihad against the private school scholarship of 12 year old S-CHIP beneficiary Graeme Frost, the Supreme Court Wednesday quietly handed the son of multimillionaire former Viacom CEO Tom Freston private school tuition courtesy of New York taxpayers.
For the details, see:
“Supreme Irony: Frost Attacks Continue as Ex-Viacom Chief Wins Tuition Case.”
from the memoryhole:
applawz is right but isn’t telling the whole story. a lady did post a diary that seemed suicidal and dkos readers tracked her down. however, there were people who thought that was a bad idea and multiple diaries on the subject.
the lady was freaked out about people from the internet tracking her down as far as I can remember.
blah @ 101
did kos ban her?
It’s very wrong to harass Pelosi in her home. Her office, fair enough. Her home, horrible.
And Daily Kos is often full of shit. It’s not what O’Reilly says but it’s full of shit, all the same.
I’m late to this thread but I hope Malkin gets thrown in jail for stalking and threatening someone’s well being (whatever the offical legal charges are called).
I think this is called trespassing at the very least. I want the book thrown at her and at McConnell.
Code Pink should camp out at Pelosi’s office…and if I say that, then the fine citizens over at McConnell’s home town can do the same.
12 year olds are off limits. I shared the story today with two teenagers who could not believe their ears. They were shocked.
Dr Zen @ 103
since when does protesting = harassment?
Furious @ 100
Hold on. That story is not what it seems. The Viacom guy donated all the money reimbursed back to a public school. He did it in order to pave the way for other families in need who don’t have the resources to fight the legal battles that can sometimes arise when trying to get a fair and appropriate education for your disabled child. Viacom Guy knows he can well afford the tuition, that’s not why he’s being fighting the legal battle for ten years.
blah @ 101
So, in other words, no, applawz is not right and is completely full of shit. According to applawz, Kos published contact details online for the purpose of harrassing a woman for her political views, and banned her when she complained, and according to your story (though not your conclusion) this is bullshit.
In fact, according to your (still linkless) version, a number of Kos readers attempted to intervene in what they believed to be a potential suicide, and there was a vigorous debate about the ethics of this.
But thanks for the false equivalence. You must be a “journalist”.
No… wait… the Frost family was despondent over being used by the Democrats and Malkin was only peeking in their windows to try to prevent a suicide? Yeah, that must be it.
Fuck off, concern troll.
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.”
I am guessing, since our beloved speaker is third in line to head the government, that this might apply to her.
Now I suppose that we might feel sorry that, in an age of hurricane-fenced corrals for “free speech” Madam Speaker does not rate her own private Secret Service thugs to keep away the riff-raff, but that’s life in the (self-imposed) minority.
Jesus H. Fucking Christ, I hope someone already said this: she’s not just an elected politician, she’s the Speaker of the House! Who the hell does she thinks she works for? Dammit, she’s just as lame as Hoyer, Schumer and Emmanuel. That asshole crack about the First mendment is as unforgivable as it is unforgettable. Annoying the neighbors? Jesus fucking wept. Who are these people?
Everyone’s home is off limits, except maybe the White House since they work there too and it is a seat of government and it is not like anyone can get close anyway. I am really uncomfortable with taking politics to the point that there is no refuge from it.
I am well aware that the other side sees almost no limits at all. I even feel like the Democratic party has an obligation to procide that Baltimore family with 24×7 armed protection if they want it (now that their address is out on the Right blogs) and Rush has stirred the loony bin.
But none of that means that we should not draw a line at defensive measures and stay away from even fairly modest intrusiveness.
I haven’t read all the comments and I apologize if this has already been covered, but my time is limited at the moment.
It seems to me that if Pelosi will not meet with the people she represents, will not give them her schedule so they can know where she will be so they can protest somewhere other than her home, than this is what she gets. If she doesn’t like it, she can get a different job. Or at least do the job she was hired to do. And that is represent the people. How can she do that if she won’t even talk to the people?
So I have no problem with these protesters. Tell Nancy to schedule a meeting with them somewhere and then actually show up and I would be willing to bet they would then move away from her home. If she would than actually act on their suggestions from the meeting.
Sheesh Nancy. Just do your damn job.
Everyone’s home is off limits. I strongly believe in a zone of privacy with regard to children and homes. This is the morally right position for us to take.
It is equally egregious to interfere with the privacy of the family of the sick children in Baltimore and the family of the Speaker. Whether the protesters outside the house are from the left or the right I condemn them.
Let there be some small shred of personal existence as we move into the era of Big Brother, Total Information Awareness, all datamining all the time. Preserve the small space around our loved ones and our homes, that’s all I’m asking.
egregious @ 112
jeeze egr. if you want to convince me i’m wrong, could you give me more of an argument other than to condemn me and imply i’m immoral?
p.s. or at least address my arguments?
selise @ 58
The difference is probably that Bush’s spread is large enough to get lost in, whereas Pelosi lives in town. Bush could avoid Camp Cindy by helicoptering in or taking ATVs or Hummers overland. Pelosi doesn’t have that option.
Then again, both are public figures.
I can see both sides of this angle.
By the way, here’s the rest of the Pelosi quote:
Phoenix Woman @ 115
fair enough… your’re right, there was a difference in distance (which is a big difference – outa sight, outa mind).
still, when i look at the pictures of the code pink protesters outside speaker pelosi’s house, they aren’t in her yard (or even near a neighbor’s house). it looks (to me) like a protest – not harassment.
if speaker pelosi had a small child, (or someone who couldn’t understand and would feel threatened or scared) then i’d think differently.
i think that being a public figure matters a very little bit. what really matters to me is that she (and bush) are:
1) elected representatives
2) adults
3) it’s a peaceful protest and not harrassment.
i do think it’s possilby a bit different for a private citizen, and lot different for a child and/or there is harrasment.