When Ken Burns’ latest docudrama on “The War” first hit the preview circuit, he was rightly blasted across the progressive blogworld for excluding Hispanic Americans from his depiction of the Great War. Some 500,000 Hispanics contributed to the war effort, including more than a dozen Medal of Honor recipients. As a result of the uproar, Burns added 28 minutes of new interviews and photographs to tell the stories of two Hispanics and one American Indian.
But his 13-hour PBS series has another serious gap that should be examined. And in doing so, it’s not to single out Burns, but to highlight how “The War” illustrates a recurring narrative in popular U.S. culture: one that omits issues of America’s working class as a class or portrays them in ways that feed on common stereotypes.
Harvey Kaye, a professor at the University of Wisconsin-Green Bay and author of a populist biography of Tom Paine, that most progressive of America’s founders, applauds Burns’ efforts to “tell the story not from the vantage point of the statesmen and generals, but from the perspective of those who did the actual fighting and of those on the home front who provided them with food and materiel and anxiously awaited their return.”
Yet Kaye notes that although the series explores the racism that dictated a segregated U.S. military, the incarceration of all Japanese Americans from the West Coast to internment camps in the country’s interior and the tragedy of the 400,000 U.S. war dead, Burns neglects the context that “encouraged and sustained young Americans in all their diversity to fight fascism and imperialism.”
Writing recently in The Guardian, Kaye points out:
Burns’s narrator appreciatively states that Roosevelt redirected the energy of the New Deal to the war effort, and Burns’s now-elderly storytellers recall how FDR’s voice inspired them. Yet we hear nothing about what the New Deal entailed and why it mattered. We also never hear FDR pronounce the “four freedoms” or call for a second bill of rights for all Americans.
We never hear about the hundreds of thousands of housewives who volunteered to police local businesses in support of wartime price controls. And we never hear about labor unions, whose membership during the Depression grew from three to nine million, and during the war to 15 million. Burns makes no reference to A. Philip Randolph’s AFL Pullman Porters and the March on Washington Movement that pushed FDR to integrate the war industries, or the CIO’s policy of biracial unionism.
And let’s face it—how many of us have ever even heard of FDR’s Second Bill of Rights? It would have included many items opposed by Republican party reactionaries because it would guarantee:
- A job with a living wage.
- Freedom from unfair competition and monopolies.
- Homeownership.
- Medical care.
- Education.
- Recreation.
In The Second Bill of Rights: FDR’s Unfinished Revolution and Why We Need It Now More Than Ever, University of Chicago law professor Cass Sunstein describes how Roosevelt laid out the reasons for his proposal in a January 1941 State of the Union address:
At the inception of the Constitution, the nation had grown “under certain unalienable rights—among them the right of free speech, free press, free worship, trial by jury, freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures.” But over time, these rights proved inadequate. Unlike the Constitution’s framers, “we have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence.” As Roosevelt saw it, “necessitous men are not free men,” not the least because those who are hungry and jobless “are the stuff out of which dictatorships are made.”
So much for recent revisionist scholarship portraying Roosevelt as an anti-populist.
Ignoring or sensationalizing the economic struggles of America’s men and women is not new. Think of “On the Waterfront,” a movie classic that in portraying the 1940’s struggle of East Coast dockworkers for better pay and treatment on the job, demonizes the union as much as the employer. (For a much different take, check out a new DVD that highlights the 1930’s West Coast union organizing effort by the dynamic labor leader Harry Bridges, founder of the International Longshore and Warehouse Union. The film captures a one-man play by actor/producer Ian Ruskin, whose efforts to champion Bridges, not surprisingly, have not made it to the big screen.)
In addition to bashing unions, another refrain common in pop lit and film is one that shows difficult working conditions, such as life as a hotel maid, but offers no examination of, let alone solution to, the structural causes behind low-wage exploitation. Instead, the poor working class girl (typically), gets “saved” by a wealthy knight in a shining business suit. “Maid in Manhattan,” anyone?
But with a shortage of rich (and don’t forget, handsome) guys to go around, and presuming many of working America’s low-income aren’t female, marrying into male wealth probably is not the policy platform we need to address income inequality.
With popular culture lacking even the most superficial treatment of the factors underlying economic injustice in this nation, we are left to believe our inability to provide for our families the way our parents did is solely our fault and that no one else is sharing in our struggle. Most especially, we are left without the vision of how change can happen when we do join together—in unions, community groups or online action. (Yes, there are the occasional gems like “Norma Rae,” but their number is far outweighed on the scale by the ”Maid in Manhattan” genre.)
For the Ken Burns’ war series, this lack of economic and political context results in protagonists whose motivations for sacrificing their lives remains unexplored. As Kaye writes:
We need to know about those things to better comprehend how, in the wake of a devastating and in critical ways persistent Depression, Americans—of every color and ethnicity—were both ready and eager to fight not only imperial Japan, the country that attacked them at Pearl Harbor, but, equally and all the more aggressively at the outset, Nazi Germany and fascist Italy. We need to know those things to better understand the commitment to and confidence about America that we hear so beautifully expressed by Burns’s own storytellers. And we need to know those things to grasp more fully why we look back to our parents’ and grandparents’ generation as we do.
One can understand Burns’s need to not alienate his sponsors. Yet one cannot help but wonder if his desire to avoid the politics of the present did not also severely shape his telling of the past, for, as much as he attends to America’s racial injustices, he drains America’s second world war generation of any real political commitments or aspirations.
Stereotypes and stick figures can’t change the world. And for corporate-driven pop culture, that’s the point.
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Zed?
Hot Diggity! My first and only.
yellowsnapdragon @ 2
You are fabulous, and, one of my favorite flowers.
You had people like my father’s parents, who moved west from OK in the early 40s, grandpa already 60, and worked in the aircraft plants. (y grandfather didn’t retire until he was 70 and his youngest kid was through college.) He ran a sheet-metal brake and granny did things (being small) like crawling inside wings. They’d been farming people before the war, and granny had been a county agent for a while, showing people things like how to raise more food and eat better.
Moving was harder on the kids, who were tormented, even by teachers, because they were ‘Okies’.
demi @ 3
Why, thank you, ma’am.
I understand the criticisms but pretty much any documentary is incomplete. Heck, how many people are gonna watch all 12 or 13 hours of the one as is? If you ask me, it just highlights the need for a progressive version of wingnut welfare(of course it would be more useful than wingnut welfare but it’s the best comparison).
Great post.
Labor is so reviled in this nation by the white color and above classes.
We are ruled by labor hating corporations who view labor as a line item on a balance sheet and not as human beings. Outsourcing is only a means to achieve a better bottom line.
Many leftists and union workers fought fascism in Spain and against Musolini and Hitler who were corporatist labor hating SOBs.
But that’s not far from the republican sensibility is it?
Let’s call a spade a spade here.
Republicans HATE the working men and women in this country and thing of them as less than human offshore. Remember the Marianas Islands?
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 6
I think you would be very surprised by how many did/will watch the entire documentary.
PJ,
my fellow LAish person.
My grandpa working at Hugh’s in Culver City after he brouht my daddy and gramma out from Indiana.
Lots of mid-west history here, I think.
Hi there Tula!
Thunion part of the story may have lacked, but FDR got plenty of credit for doing the right things. Ken Burns can’t do it all.
And demi:
You haven’t left for camping yet? Did you get my message in a previous thread?
Biodun @ 12
Leaving this afternoon after we pick up little mr. pottymouth (as They say) from school.
I’m cooking and packing and, um, well, just getting ready.
I saw your note, and as much as they say red goes with meat, and I hear that, I’m bringing the grigio ’cause it’s lighter and was ON SALE.
(ps. taking the son out of school tomorrow. we all need a break. :)
There is another lack-of-context problem with “The War” as well. A year or so ago, while observing the teaching of a HS History “WW2″ chapter, I became aware of a recurring problem with the teaching of the war: WW2 ed for US HS students tends to condense down to 4 things: Pearl Harbor, D-Day, Hiroshima, & the Holocaust. All important, no doubt-but so lacking as to be almost misleading. Barbarossa. Dunkirk. The Blitz. Stalingrad. North Africa. Leningrad. Market Garden. Anzio. Dresden. Berlin. All missing. I felt the same way about “The War”-being a huge fan of Burns’ other work, I was very disappointed, in spite of the incredible footage, to see a work of such limited scope.
Hi Demi.
What was that movie with the hotel maid who surfed? Blue Crush, I think. She was saved by a famous quarterback.
The implication of that movie was that one becomes a maid (or something) so that one is not pinned down by the responsibility of a “real job”, and can invest free time in one’s true profession. I doubt that most maids have the luxury of choice in jobs.
Thank you for this excellent post, Tula. One of the things I’ve always appreciated about the “Rosie the Riveter” documentary made a couple of decades ago was that it paid attention to gender, race, AND class issues.
And regarding FDR, I found it inspiring to visit his memorial in DC and read the quotations they chose to highlight. He was much more progressive than many folks understand.
Lest we also forget, early in his presidency, FDR was pushed to the left on some things dealing with labor thanks to “The Kingfish.”
Which was a good thing.
I watched all of it and found it to be a fine piece of storytelling on a signal event in oiur nation’s history.
But, then, I didn’t go into it expecting Burns to thoroughly set the stage with the social and political context of the time. That’s my job to take care of.
Still, Prof. Kaye’s criticism is perfectly valid and a call to action for someone to produce more art … but I don’t think it was intended to denigrate what Burns accomplished or demand that progressives boycott the War. I think On the Waterfront is one of the great American films ever, but I also understand the implications of Kazan’s literary choices.
Is it possible I’m becoming less rigid at my advanced age?
Flamethrower @ 11
ITA.
I didn’t watch expecting full exploration of social issues. I got eye witness accounts.
Perhaps someone will start developing another documentary to explore issues raised from thought provoking discussions of “The War”…
RonD @ 14
Hi RonD.
May I summit a (nother) personal note here?
My husband and I watched The War. We’ve both lost our fathers, his 2 years ago, mine 2 months ago) and we shared with each other what our pops told us about the war. Neither of them wanted to share the gore, the realities. It seems they both wanted to go with a editied, romantized version of the hell they endured.
I wonder if, since Burns and his co-producer, they while interviewing the vets they gained Some Of That.
And, what is going to be told of the war that we are engaged in now?
Megisi — jinx! ;)
For the life of me I don’t see anything romantic about war.
It started bad, the middle sucked and the end was a crime against humanity.
Why do people kill on command?
OhioTex @ 16
FDR Memorial here in DC is excellent. Very inspiriting. I wish we hadn’t gotten away from tall monument buidling, though. Nothing can beat the drama of standing the Jefferson Memorial on the Tidal Basin.
We in this family are proud to call ourselves FDR Democrats.
this post belongs downstairs but that thread is long old and this is new information from think progress
SanderO
I didn’t say there was anything romantic about war.
I said that two men both choose to not share with their children the horrors they experienced.
It say’s a lot.
And, I took it as a thumbs-up for non-violence.
In the first sentence you refer to Burns’s documentary as a “depiction of the Great War.” “The Great War” means only one thing — the FIRST World War. Wow, lost me on the first sentence.
The opposite of FDR is GWB. And HRC sure ain’t no FDR.
Perhaps “The War” should have been titled “The American’s War”…like dosido, I didn’t expect a full exploration of the social effects, though, upon reflection, some mention of them would have been nice, as long as we’re talking about the uniquely American experience. Worth watching, still, for the personal stories and incredible footage-but should be followed by two more, “The Home Front” for a discussion of the missing social issues, and “The Eastern Front”, for the missing military context.
An what’s coming for our children and their kids? Their own grapes of wrath.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 30
What’s Oklahoma looking like these days? Any resemblence to teh ’30s?
If any documentary maker made a film that was all things to all people, they would probably never finish their project. The focus of “The War” was narrowed to the four communities Waterbury, Mobile, Sacramento and LuVerne, Mn to try and give the film some context across much of the country an interesting four-cornered frame of North-South-Coastal/Urban-Midwest/Rural.
What Burns was trying (IMHO) to do was celebrate the fact that together we as a country were stronger together than the things that held us apart, and was trying to do it before the men and women who were part of that era pass forever.
In an interview he said he deliberately selected subjects to interview who had not told or been reticent to tell their stories, and that he was looking for experiences and context besides those of “The Longest Day” and “Band of Brothers” to make a contribution to the historical record of that time. In fact one of the most interesting interviews (for me) was the woman who quite literally grew up as a civilian internee in Manila. I have been to Corregidor, along the trail of the march on Bataan, and at Camp O’Donnell, I had no idea of what American/European (non-Axis) civilians went through in the P.I. during the war.
The political and economic context that led up to and through WWII are valid subjects, but I don’t know that criticizing Burns for not including that as part of the series is a completely valid critcism in light of his efforts to document an era before it’s gone forever.
The opposite of FDR is GWB. And HRC sure ain’t no FDR.
and
Their own grapes of wrath.
I thought you were a math teacher.
You sound more like an English teacher to me?
(I know….or, I guess, …talk to Lahoma!
(wish you two could go camping with us tonight….) :)
Tula, I don’t think we’ve gotten away from it-I think what you are seeing is A), we are more ambiguous about our perceived heroes, and B), we have gotten away from having leaders who inspire us.
Although there were those nuts who wanted to add Reagan to Mt. Rushmore.
Hmmmm. I wonder if Mt. Rushmore (or the Jefferson Memorial) even could be built today, or if they would be sunk by controversy?
RonD @ 14
Drive by;
If you want the real thing, buy this.
I watched this when it came out, and many times subsequently. I recently purchased it, and it’s still the best of it’s type, IMO, even if (or perhaps because) it was made in 1974.
same page memo:
RonD, I called Carter, when folks we’re talking about he’s being slimed…
(fuk them, who cares?)
I called him a Monument.
same page?
This is a great post. Thanks!
I think you’re right that we shouldn’t pick on Burns, no documentary can cover everything, but I think it’s good we can use his documentary as a jumping off point to address some of these important issues.
Too often, it seems to be forgotten that in WWII we were fighting fascism. We didn’t officially enter the war until Japan attacked us, but by then it was pretty clear which side we were on. And up until Pearl Harbor, I think we were more concerned with the rise of fascism in Europe. Part of that can be chalked up to Eurocentric racism, but I also think it had a lot to do with the dangers of fascism and anathema it is to American ideals (or at least it USED to be anathema).
And the labor movement is another important story. I happen to be in senior leadership in a company and just yesterday there was discussion about the policy of posting items on an employee bulletin board. It’s getting to the point that everybody’s posting stuff up there for church bazaars and selling used motorcycles, etc. and it’s getting out-of-hand. However when discussing the problem, the concern brought up by two different people was that a union might come in here and post information.
We’re a small, rural hospital. I haven’t heard even the slightest hint of a rumor of employees seeking to unionize, but a couple of people are so brainwashed that they are terrified of some scary union coming in here.
First of all, I think it’s highly unlikely, and second of all so what if a union is interested in coming here?
We pay good wages and offer good benefits. What do we have to be afraid of?
But that’s the culture we live in now. Instead of offering inspiration, the very idea of a union strikes irrational terror into the hearts of otherwise rational management.
Same page. A true profile in courage for today.
Cou-rage!
Actually, now that I’ve said it out loud, I think a “Home Front” documentary would be a very good idea. Have it cover the very social issues we’re talking about. I don’t know that I’m aware of that perspective ever having been covered, other than “Rosie the Riveter”.
good points.
similar to the way martin luther king’s anti-war stuff is totally ignored in any newscast about him.
I’m not sure I understand the criticism. Every episode started with a statement saying (and I’m paraphrasing poorly here) there were tons of stories and they can’t be all told.
This was the same criticism I remember hearing about “Jazz”. Not EVERY story was told. Well, that’s impossible. But yet, to just criticize like that sells everything else in the documentary short. Personally, what you’re discussing here would make a great documentary, but it wasn’t what this documentary is about.
And, because of “The War” and its success, a documentary like that would be much easier to be made.
I understand the thought and appreciate the discussion, but I just think this kind of falls under the “it’s much easier to criticize than create” arena. And right now I’m still appreciating and relishing the fact that “The War” gave me a two-week break before realizing how crappy all the new network television shows are.
Is this a duet?
A documentary focused on the at home social implications affected who the good ole usa became as a result of the war?
RonD @ 29
While history lessons are good, this documentary serves to glamorize war. The visceral emotions that it triggers are destructive overall to the promotion of peace and liberal ideals.
As intellectuals can glean nuggets of truth and learn from it, the majority of others simply key into the propagandistic warmongering patriotic underlying theme. Dog Whistle style.
What man can kill another man’s son and call himself a father?
Mr. Burns hasn’t done us any favors.
What kills me is how far advanced FDR was…and we haven’t moved forward on his legacy. We’d be on par with Canada and Europe in these matters if we had…
RonD @ 34
My child and I learn on a class trip to DC that FDR didn’t want a memorial at all, and if there was one it shouldn’t be larger than his desk. There is an earlier monument to him somewhere in DC (near the FBI building?) that looks like a marble block literally the size of his desk.
The new monument is beautiful, incorporating his love of water, his famous quotes, and even his wheelchair which was never shown in public. The monument committee successfully overrode the size issue and the disability issue to show the greatness of the man.
There’s your little docent bit for today!
Speaking of documentaries, I’d like to see a good documentary on the Great Depression (as Thom Hartmann says, the Republican Great Depression).
It would be nice once-and-for-all to debunk the myth that WWII ended the depression and FDR’s New Deal had nothing to do with it — or as one author even claims helped prolong it.
Could you imagine what would have happened if we had someone like George W. Bush in office during the time of Pearl Harbor? We’d probably have invaded Mexico in response, but just imagine what kind of Marshall Plan would have been developed if Bush would have been in charge of re-building Europe after the war?
Europe would probably look a lot like sub-Saharan Africa right now.
If Bobby Kennedy had lived to be President, we would have no problem with the SCHIP.
Just think, one rich kid goes down to the deep South, sees poverty for maybe the first time, and is completely moved by it and tries to make life better in whatever way he can.
Another rich kid goes down to New Orleans and says “heckuva job!”
Great post. Going Way OT here:
Chris Dodd is going to raffle off a ticket to go see the Red Sox-Indians game Saturday (he has 2, it seems) for campaign cash. Here’s the article:
http://deadspin.com/sports/chr…..309669.php
Donate $20.04, and you’re in the raffle, it seems.
Of course, this could be on topic if you consider watching the Sox to be “pursuit” of “happiness”.
Oops – that’s Game 6 – Saturday a week….
Hackworth:
I was actually impressed that, unlike previous documentaries, this one actually did touch on the effect of suddenly being taught to kill has on people. I found it moving to see the veterans still being moved by it today, including one who basically admitted how his hatred of Japanese followed him for years.
As a pacifist myself, I was troubled by some of the footage. But, for the first time to me, WWII was more than just black and white footage of “an innocent time” full of attractive soldiers in dress uniform with women with snoots while “Sing, Sing, Sing” and “Begin the Beguine” played in the background.
Okay, I admit it. I really dig Ken Burns. He takes things I think I have knowledge of and expands them.
SufiLizard @ 47
Dubya has modelled himself somewhat after Woodrow Wilson. Not intentionally, of course. Dubya doesn’t know the particular characteristics or achievements of any president – beyond his knowledge that Abraham Lincoln had a beard.
I hope you’re right about Dubya’s knowledge of the Presidents. Let’s just hope he never learns about John Adams and the Alien & Sedition act.
Hackworth, I guess I disagree. I think christy posted earlier on the preview shown to vets who wondered if the series was pro-troops or anti-war (as though it couldn’t be both).
I have a family member who survived both World Wars and if he hadn’t, I wouldn’t be alive. He saw the elephant. Life or death stories are always compelling and don’t necessarily glamorize the experience. I think Burns’ narrator commented that a lot of guys thought they were signing up for adventure and quickly discovered it was hell.
I think we agree War is Hell as trite as that sounds. And war should be a last resort of defense, not a power grabbing tool for any country. The tragedy in my mind is that our current administration believes War is just Dandy, as long as someone else is dying.
kdh22 @ 31
Not much. Everything stays green here in the summer. We have more man made lakes now than any other state. We practice minimum till, and rarely do you see a dust storm. Of course we still have lots of cowboys, cowgirls and Indians. And tornados sometimes. ;0)
Kurt @ 51
2 topics he’s touched which I think have not been examined enough in general are: (a) the internment of Japanese Americans; and (b) the racial separation/racism, not just in the Armed Services, but on the home front.
To hear some first-hand accounts of these sorts of things is all to the good, I think.
do-si-do @ 48
Of course I would have been thrilled for Bobby to be president, but actually there was no guarantee that he would have won even the Democratic nomination in 1968. Eugene McCarthy had the anti-Vietnam War momentum.
Sorry to disagree, but I thought it was brilliant and very clear evidence that there is no good outcome to war.
Burns did what he set out to do. We can criticize because he didn’t set out to do what we would have liked, but it’s not fair to say his product is flawed.
A sidenote about WW2 — a couple of years ago we had an exchange student from Uzbekistan. As a junior in a USA high school, she was required to take American history. She was absolutely flabbergasted to learn that Amercians think they won that war. She honestly didn’t even know that Americans had participated in that war. Her history books were printed in the former Soviet Union, and what she was taught was that the Russians had prevailed against Hitler. The USA was apparently not even part of the sotry.
We said, “but, Pearl Harbor. D-Day. 600,000 dead Americans . . .”
She just laughed.
A while back one of the networks did a show called something like “The Greatest American”. In terms of the number of Americans affected in a positive way no one comes within miles of FDR. The fact that FDR did not win that by a huge margin highlights demonstrates how effective the capitalist class has been in minimizing his accomplishments. He really scared the crap out of them.
Burns has always been a boring filmmaker who doesn’t like to take chances. And remember to ‘follow the money’: The corporation (GM) that pays for Burn’s show wouldn’t like stories about unions now, would it?
There is no progressive media in the US.
do-si-do @ 54
A huge cultural challenge faced by liberals is that half of all Americans feel that way too. The zeitgeist is changing primarily because too many of our own kids are dying and its taking too long to win.
Tula Connell @ 23
Be right with you on that … as soon as another Jefferson shows up. We could use one right about now, and if someone were to show up who could pull us back from the brink over which we are presently falling, I’d send some tax dollars to stack some marble in the capital.
OT, but I did not want to miss this out. Qwest refused to go along with the NSA on wireless wiretaps and – was targeted and retaliated against.
http://www.rockymountainnews.c…..66,00.html
I hate to mention the name, but there’s a certain Right-wing blogger who I was hoping was watching the night they did the internment section because it really made her “theories” look ridiculous… but then, she and her theories didn’t need Ken Burns to make her/them look ridiculous.
But that’s the thing… “The War” really did shed light on a lot of things and helped bring a sense of reality to a war that has largely been turned into a myth of American perfection and power. That shouldn’t be tossed aside just because everything wasn’t covered. And the show was very true to the thesis it stated it was covering.
So let’s find a documentarian to cover all these other areas. Since “The War” did well, now is the time that things like that can be covered.
hitchhiker @ 58
And with reason. The Soviet Union’s war was an order of magnitude larger than the U.S. European conflict. May not have been run quite as well, by and large, but for sheer scale … we were VERY lucky that we did not have to engage the forces that were busy in the East.
The Soviets did suffer something like 40X as many casualties as we did, along with suffering, and ultimately repelling, the largest land invasion in history. Both views are propagandistic, but ours, sadly, more so, IMO.
hitchhiker @ 58
Thanks for that. It’s always good to see things from another perspective. Americans (myself included) have a very self-centered view of the world (and particularly history).
kdh22 @ 8
I hope so. I watched a few hours of it, but baseball got in the way of some of it last week.
hackworth @ 44
Did you even watch the documentary? I seriously doubt anyone who watched it could walk away feeling that the death of the man at Anzio from Waterbury was a “glamorous” outcome of the war.
This is a fact-and, IIRC, the impetus for the launching of D-Day. Stalin had been pressing for a Western Front since 1941, and had finally threatened to make peace with Hitler and let the Western Allies deal with him if they didn’t open a Western front.
Hence…D-Day.
behindthefall @ 62
I think I know who that could be, but he doesn’t want to run(and no, I don’t mean Gore).
For those who remember Ken Burns’ The Civil War, his most recent documentary does come across as incomplete and unfocused. Many of his narrators had compelling stories but they didn’t seem to feed into any larger historic vision. It all gave me the impression of “stuff happened and then we won.” I found it interesting but unsatisfying.
Jo Fish @ 69
It doesn’t glamourize war at all. It shows how ugly it is. They’ve shown a lot of death and destruction(which admittedly, might turn some of the right and think tankers on).
Biodun @ 57
Thanks for the correction Biodun. I didn’t wordsmith enough to get the right qualifiers in the RFK/prez comment….
SufiLizard @ 67
It sounds like perhaps both textbooks were distorted?
Was she allowed to study evolution?
;)
Sorry to be OT but has anyone else read the House Judiciary committees questioning of Jill Simpson in the Alabama Governor Siegelman case. It is blowing me away, and I am very cynical. The worst is the judge, one Mark Fuller who is also a defense contractor. He left the CEO and millions of dollars in DOD contracts off his disclosure forms. He closed the corporation down in Alabama, and reincorporated in Colorado. The things he did to the Siegelman defense is out of Stalinist show trial. None of the press has anything except this so called judge will not answer questions. The only humorous thing is he has corporate mail for the defense contracts sent to the federal courthouse in Montgomery! Not only is he a criminal, he is an idiot.
BeBe @ 76
I believe The next Hurrah has something on it. Wild.
Another multi-tasking OT..Is this a re-post?
(snip)
I thought Burns muddled this documentary by slanting it to appeal to modern sensibilities. How Burns could deliberately ignore the values of a Shelby Foote leaves the story floating in space.
Burns missed the basic economic story. The country was broke when WWII arrived. WWII was fought with tax monies and E-bonds, not printing presses. Frank Sinatra was taxed at 95 cents on the dollar. Americans all pulled together to win the war. Mandarins manipulating wars for profits came later.
I was taught it at school when I was 15. Then again, I did go to school in the UK, where no-one was under the impression that the New Deal was a commie plot.
(My criticisms of the Burns series are at TNH. Like Hugh, I found it unfocused and unsatisfying: a pity, given Burns’ privileged access to human source material.)
One thing is certain. If all these Republican and Democratic armchair war mongers are allowed to persist, the next world war won’t look anything like the last two.
do-si-do @ 75
Following down the path of OT:
World’s oldest wall painting unearthed in Syria
new thread
I think the critique of the Burns piece is right on. I didn’t watch the whole documentary. So what? I felt. Something is missing here is what continued to run through my mind.
It invites comparisons. Other than telling the story from a few points of view, interviewing elderly participants etc, there is less here than “Victory at Sea”. The footage shown in that documentary, which was 26 one half hour segments, which, yes, I watched more than once eclipses the stogy, jerky presentation in the burns piece. Even if it had a certain prideful propaganda quality.
I went out and rented one of the DVDs from Victory at Sea. Damn good images. The contribution of Edward Steichen is so evident in Victory, and so lacking in Burns piece.
what jayt said.
Not only labor, but socialism, is slimed in all these newspeak retellings of “history.”
As David McGowan points out in Understanding the F-Word, WWII is actually the story of the capitalists’ war on socialism.
The Soviet Union lost more than 20 million people–not to mention wounded. The Chinese had the next highest casulty total at 12 million.
Why did we go to war against Japan in 1941 but wait until 1944 to invade Europe? Some say we waited until the Nazi defeat at the hands of the Soviets became inevitable.
In other words, we fought the against the axis with one hand behind our back in the hopes that the Nazis would overthrow the Stalin and the Japanese would weaken Mao.
“Death to the yellow hordes by the ‘invisible hand.’”
There was a documentary on pbs on The Borinqueneers during the Korean War. It made me really sad. And got me thinking of the status of Puerto Rico as well. Right after they showed Honorable Son. It was a hard hitter. Just add the treatment of black soldiers in the Jim Crow era, and I am [edit: more than really] really ashamed of this country.
Ah and don’t forget the GI Bill. Major impact on higher education and upward mobility for troops.
SufiLizard @ 37
Ding!
Memo to Lee Scott: Treat your employees with respect and dignity, pay them fairly and evaluate them fairly, and don’t discriminate illegally, and you have nothing to fear from organized labor.
mui @ 87
It’s lucky we have censorship in this country or that shame and sadness might be shared by such a broad swath of the population that the pharmaceutical companies would get rich selling anti-depressants.
But fortunately most people don’t have to think about it.
Hugh @ 72
An example Hugh,
Many in Luverne were upset that the documentary failed to mention their home canning factory that would have accented the victory garden as well as depression suvivor theme. Not done.
Too much oral history precludes anaytical history. As for me, give me Zinn anyday.
BTW, Luverne is my hometown.
I didn’t expect much discussion of the New Deal and the Depression. As a history buff, I would have enjoyed it, but Burns already had a difficult job covering the actual war in a limited number of hours.
Professor Kaye puts too much responsibility on Burns’s shoulders. He didn’t set out to make a documentary about FDR’s entire administration. Anyone who is ignorant of the New Deal and the Depression has him/herself to blame. There are countless books available, and many good documentaries. Over the years on PBS and the History Channel, I’ve watched very informative documentaries about the Roaring Twenties, the Stock Market Crash, the Depression, the Dust Bowl, Huey Long, New Deal programs, the Home Front, Women War workers, African American troops in WWI and WWII, Patton, WWI, and the disasterous results of the severe WWI reparations that Germany was forced to pay. Those just cover the first half of the 20th Century. People who expect Ken Burns to be the be-all-and-end-all are bound to be disappointed.
Hackworth, if you found the war scenes to be romanticized, I have to wonder about you. I found them nauseating.
Good Grief how long did you expect the documentry to be a year? He told short stories about people from four towns in America. I was actually surprised that he managed to find a survivor of the Indianapolis from one of those towns. Burns got the discussion going. If we want to learn more we should get off our TV asses and continue the quest for more knowledge. That is what keeps the discussion going.
Moon @ 93
It’s not quite so easy. Burns had first dibs on this, because he’s Ken frickin’ Burns. He had privileged access to people at the end of their lives, talking about WW2 for the first time. With that kind of special access comes special responsibility: you also have to appreciate that the DVD sets are likely to be ‘The War’ in schools for a long time.
What I’d like, as I said at TNH, is for Burns to make all of his interviews and discovered material available for future documentary makers.
Ignoring or sensationalizing the economic struggles of America’s men and women is not new.
Except it wasn’t ignored. There was considerable mention of the economic struggles of America’s men and women. Not exactly the context Harvey Kaye might have emphasized, but I watched the whole thing, and it was most certainly there, such as interviews with people who had been unemployed for a long time who were easily able to get jobs in the defense industry after the war started. There was also coverage of rations and victory gardens.
I’d like to point out that Burns left out a lot of other stuff, like the flag raising on Iwo Jima, Navajo Code Talkers, and I don’t believe the submarine war in the North Atlantic was mentioned, either. Huge big chunks of history were left out, because with only 14 hours there isn’t enough time to tell everything. It was a very big, complicated war.
THIS WAS NOT A COMPREHENSIVE HISTORY, nor was it meant to be. It was more of an impressionistic history. I’ve edited a lot of history books in my day, and I assure you no two historians will present the same era in the same way with exactly the same set of facts. And if this is true of academic histories, it is doubly so for popular histories that are the creative work expressing the vision of the author, or in this case the documentary maker.
And may I say that I appreciate the gut-level honesty of much of the battle coverage, which didn’t shy away from discussing atrocities committed by Americans and the suffering of the wounded.
And, may I also say, the kind of narrow-minded, my-way-or-the-highway criticisms I see in this post and many of the comments give liberalism a bad name. Particularly those of you who obviously didn’t watch the series but badmouthed it anyway ought to be ashamed of yourselves.
OT, but since some of you were interested in what my Uzbek student had been taught and seen, here’s a brief list:
You can get AIDS from toothbrushes and combs. She was horrified that my daughters share combs.
If you drop a fork on the floor, it will be contaminted with very dangerous germs.
The Soviets were not trying to take over the world. They were simply “gathering” (her word, accompanied with an eloquent gesture) into their fold the smaller, poorer countries that couldn’t fend for themselves against the west.
All medicine is suspect; she refused to take anything for colds, headaches, menstrual cramps, etc.
Plus, a couple of other things that astonished her–
She was stunned to learn that we have the right to refuse to testify against ourselves. Completely floored. Never heard of such a thing.
She told me that before she left, she was warned not to say anything negative about her country, on pain of being sent home.
She described many incidents of corruption in every area of her life, including professors who expect to be paid for grades, medical workers who take graft for procedures, and bureaucrats who charge citizens for routine paperwork.
An interesting year.
Burns does documentry films, films about what happened during the context of his subject. I watched all of “War” and all of “Civil War.” In both films I think Burns purposely stays away from politics because it is speculative and always open to debate. Burns purpose was to show the horrors of war and the effects it has on soldiers and families and the countries involved in war. That is undisputable.
The only heavy political theme throughout both films is the fact that governments involved in these wars never tell the truth to the public about what is actually happening over the course of a war. The regime will always tell its people things are going much better than they really are. Does this ring any bells? This was Burns real message his critics seem to miss. That and war is so horrific that it should never be raged unless there is absolutely no other solution. Just because Burns makes a film on a certain subject does’nt mean it is the last film ever on such subject. This attitude that Burns should include every last person and every last event is giving him way too much credit as a filmaker. He is not necessarily the end all of documentry filmaking.
“It’s not quite so easy. Burns had first dibs on this, because he’s Ken frickin’ Burns.”
Actually, THAT’s a little too easy. He’s Ken frickin’ Burns because he’s done good work. I appreciated that Burns simply allowed some of the veterans just to tell their stories – the veterans were so silent and stoic about their service, and their stories needed to be heard. There was certainly a lot missing from a full understanding of the war – there is so much to the war and to the the time: WWI’s affect on Germany, the Bolshevik revolution the history of European socialism, the Spanish Civil War, the RAF, the …. There are so many things. But there’s really no one documentary that can include everything unless it is just a laundry list. If I agree with any of the above comments, its the one where the commenter complained that the work was unfocused. I agree with that, but it’s a wonderful resource and with context built around the narratives of the veterans. When the definitive WWII documentary comes out, let me know what it is (and, yes, I saw the World at War, made in the ’70’s, and it is excellent, but it lacks the American veterans’ narratives, which is what the point of this documentary was.
I was surprised that Ken Burns did not work more with his colleague from his Baseball series, Doris Kearns Goodwin, whose book on the home front in World War II, No Ordinary Time, addressed many of the issues Tula notes – the social changes brought by women in the work force, the compromises to the New Deal that Roosevelt had to make to cause Big Business to convert production to the war effort, the GI Bill, the progressive programs like workplace fairness and things like daycare (!) for working mothers and the increases in productivity that resulted, that there was even at one point a social tendency towards policies such as full employment, and the Four Freedoms and the 2nd Bill of Rights, to the point where Harry Truman could talk about national health care – it would be good for the public to be reminded that these policies are not only not new, but that they worked and were effective, even during time of war ( or perhaps especially during time of war).
Why did we go to war against Japan in 1941 but wait until 1944 to invade Europe? Some say we waited until the Nazi defeat at the hands of the Soviets became inevitable.
FYI, U.S. troops landed in Italy in 1943.
The reason the Pacific War took off sooner is that we were already a military presence in the Pacific before the war, and we were attacked in the Pacific. (Even then, it took more than six months after Pearl Harbor before the U.S. began to push back the Japanese, at Midway.) We did not already have armies in place in Europe, however.
In 1942 U.S. troops landed in North Africa and had their asses handed to them by General Rommel; we were not ready for a land war then. There was no big conspiracy. We didn’t invade Normandy sooner because we weren’t ready.
demi @ 20
My personal note:
My father fought in the war as well. He was a tail gunner in a Flying Fortress and was shot down over France. He spent the rest of his war time with the French resistence fighters who found/captured him after he was rescued by a French farmer. They forced him to execute a Nazi soldier to prove he was on their side. It was kill or be killed. This is the full extent of what my father ever told me about his war experience. He passed away last November. After watching “War.” now I know why veterans don’t want to talk about it much. I remember being small and watching my Uncle Bil have psychotic rages (PTS syndrome) and describing war scenes and talking to his buddies that were dying on the battlefield “that day.” My Aunt would just yell at him and say, “Bill, the war is over, the war is over.” This was in the 1960’s.
I’ve sent numerous care packages to soldiers fighting in Iraq and e-mail penpal with them back and forth. I have never been able to get any of them to tell me of their war experiences. So now I just don’t ask anymore, I know why they are hesitant to speak.
marshen, My father was also a pilot during the invasion, and in France after the invasion (not shot down, thankfully). I really think that, although our fathers didn’t talk much about their experiences, there is something about their attitudes that we inherited.
Diane @ 102
Absolutely, I agree. Thanks for your comment.
I thought that Ken Burns did a wonderful job, and the best that he could in 14 hours. Some things did have to be left out, but one thing he never mentioned sort of hurt me. There was not one single mention – NOT ONE!! – of the almost half a million women in the military during WWII. I was one of them, a Navy Hospital Corpsman, who served three full years and I thought something could have been said about the women who replaced men in almost every rating except actual combat ratings.
It would be amusing to watch a fixed length documentary on a major topic from a period within the past 100 years scripted and executed by Professor Kaye. I suspect that he might learn something of the difficulties of including every political, economic, social, religious, and governmental point of view in complete detail while trying to convey anything coherent to his viewers. Or perhaps not.
The only answer is that Ken Burns should be driven from the screen until he recants. In the meantime, NPR should broadcast continuous reruns of “300″ for the viewing pleasure of Professor Kaye and his friends.
Why did we go to war against Japan in 1941 but wait until 1944 to invade Europe? Some say we waited until the Nazi defeat at the hands of the Soviets became inevitable.
To expand on Maha’s comments . . .
War, like politics, is the art of the possible. To the extent that Americans paid attention to international affairs, Japan was been the primary security concern of Americans from 1918 right up until the fall of France in 1940. European problems, as far as we were concerned, were supposed to solved by Europeans.
The growing threat of militarism around the world allowed Roosevelt to get past the isolationists and get a modern military under construction in the late 1930s. However the bills passed were for the design and construction of modern ships, for use mainly in the Pacific, and modern aircraft to defend our coastlines from enemy fleets–the Japanese were the only enemy with a real fleet. Most importantly, these were all machines, and all were to be delivered in the future. Roosevelt was able, at that time, to bypass the issues of manning all those ships and planes and creating a large army, which would have required a draft. The draft only came about in the fall of 1940, after Hitler had conquered all of western Europe. It was barely sustained the next year, in spite of the growing tension with Japan and the possibility of Hitler defeating the British and the Soviets.
When Europeans complain about American not intervening in the war earlier, or when conspiracy theorists claim that Roosevelt somehow invited/caused the Pearl Harbor debacle, they ignore this important point: not only did Americans not want a war, we had an obsolete navy and no army capable of fighting and winning one.
In the Pacific, our pre-war Navy proved just good enough to hold the Japanese and start a counter-attack in late 1942. Because the original re-armament plans emphasized building machines, a lot of new ships came into action in 1943 to carry the war effort against Japan (they were not needed in the Atlantic). More importantly, since the Pacific war was fought island to island, we did not need a large army to fight it!
While army generals did advocate a cross-channel invasion in 1942 in 1943, Roosevelt agreed with the British that invading western Europe would end in utter disaster until we built an army and air force big enough and experienced enough to defeat what army and air force the Germans could mass against it. From 1941 to 1944 the Germans fielded an army of 300 divisions. In 1941 we had no divisions modern enough to fight them.
In 1942, we were able to muster about 10 trained divisions and sent some of them into North Africa to knock Vichy France out of the war and remove the German threat to the Middle-east. In 1943, we had about 20 divisions to commit in Europe and used them in a limited campaign to take Italy out of the war, forcing the Germans to shift entire armies from the Russian front to cover their southern flank. By 1944, we had spent two years grinding down the German air force–with those planes first ordered back in the late 1930s–and sent an American army of 50 divisions across the English Channel along with some 30 divisions of our European allies. This army and air force proved barely enough to defeat the Germans in France and hold the line on the German border against a major counterattack (the Battle of the Bulge) late in the year.
It wasn’t until 1945, four years into the war, that the United States had an army large enough to sweep across central Europe and help the Soviets overrun the Third Reich. Not a question of willingness, just simply military math. You have to have enough bodies to cover the ground.
Of course, this is also a topic that doesn’t turn up much in documentaries. If it did, not as many Americans would have been gulled into thinking we could overrun and rebuild Iraq with an army of five or so divisions. Simple military math, expressed by many generals who were ignored by many reporters and politicians.