Yesterday evening, the Progressive Caucus had a closed-door meeting with the Democratic Leadership and the entire Democratic Caucus in the House — Speaker Pelosi, Steny Hoyer and Rahm Emanuel, among others. My understanding is that the Progressive Caucus met with Rep. Conyers — who heads the House Judiciary Committee at 6:30 pm ET, and then the whole caucus met with the leadership afterward around 7 pm ET.
The weird thing is that an AP article hit the wires (H/T to TPM for grabbing the wire piece) at 6 pm ET with quotes from Steny Hoyer regarding the possible need to cut a deal with the Bush WH on retroactive immunity for the telecom companies in order to get FISA legislation passed.
To be completely fair, the hedge on “we don’t have the documents from the Bush Administration yet” was still in there — that’s been their consistent wiggle room excuse on this. But to throw that issue out on the table BEFORE you even take your first pass on the legislative mark-up seems to undercut entirely what the process was intended to do — which ought to be to uphold the Constitution and the rule of law instead of kowtow to an untrustworthy Bush White House and their telecom cronies.
If my information on the timing of the Conyers and then leadership/Progressive/Dem Caucus meetings is correct, Steny had to have given those quotes to the AP WELL BEFORE the meetings ever took place. There is no other way the reporter could have met that wire timing.
I have contacted the AP reporter and Hoyer’s office to see if I can nail down a timeframe on this. In the meantime, though, when this popped up last night, I e-mailed contacts in Pelosi’s office to see what in the hell was going on — and am awaiting a response because it seems that Steny’s office hadn’t really been bragging about his AP interview before it hit the wires, and that the significant concerns over the effect on pending litigation as well as long-term precedent on this are far from agreed to among Democrats. When I do hear something back, I’ll be reporting it immediately, but I found it both infuriating and telling that Hoyer seemed to be freelancing — and I’m certainly going to be pushing a number of folks in Congress for some clarification today.
So, what gives? Guess we’ll see.
In the meantime, selise has put together the hearing schedule for today (scroll down to Wednesday) — and there are two mark-ups scheduled on the proposed FISA legislation — a 10:15 am ET hearing in the House Judiciary (which selise tells me is set to be webcast) and a 10:30 am ET hearing in the House Intel committee (not certain on broadcast on this at this time, but will let you know if I get specifics). I am going to try and follow these as best I can this morning, although if the past two days are any indication, I may be spending a significant portion of my time on and off the phone trying to pin down yet another round of rumors.
Additionally, President Bush will be making a public Rose Garden statement today at 11 am ET. Gosh, I expect some honesty and up front accountability about the rule of law. Not.
The bottom line? I have no clear picture of who is doing what to whom with this legislation — but one thing is abundantly clear: if we don’t keep the pressure up for the Constitutional and rule of law principles, including fundamental issues such as third party review of wiretapping power on an individualized basis when the person being surveilled is an American — something that every federal and state law enforcement officer has to do on a daily basis with every single warrant they obtain.
With a 72-hour emergency window for an immediate wiretap and delayed warrant filing, there is no excuse for these federal agents to not be able to do their jobs the exact same way…unless, of course, there is a whole lot more to the surveillance programs than we already know and the Bush Administration is desperately trying to prevent ANY oversight from anyone, including federal judges who have rarely — as in five times total, and then only temporarily – rejected a warrant application for national security wiretaps. Bundled, umbrella warrants which have only passing oversight in large batches on a periodic basis does not constitute proper scrutiny of warrants on Americans. It just does not pass the legal rigor smell test, not with a surveillance option this powerful and this likely to be abused.
“Trust us” is not exactly footing on which anyone should operate with the Bush Administration. They forfeited that good faith argument years ago. And I lump the telecoms who illegally participated in this program into the same “don’t trust you” category — the retroactive immunity malarky that Hoyer is peddling is a very bad idea for a whole host of reasons, not the least of which because we should not set a precedent of the US Congress rewarding bad faith actions of big money donors in an issue of Constitutional and rule of law importance such as this. Period.
Here’s a thought: why bother with the amendment of FISA if the White House, the GOP, the telecoms, and their donor surrogates in Congress are not operating in good faith, above-board negotiations? Let the current very bad bill expire and go back to the old FISA rules unless and until the people who are trying so hard to smarm something through start operating in an honest fashion? If it were me, they wouldn’t be getting a damn thing moving on this until they started owning up to backdoor maneuvers and fast.
You know the drill — let your elected representatives hear from you that a bad bill is not nearly good enough, and that the Constitution and the rule of law deserve more than a passing glance on this: (H/T to katymine for the numbers)
1 (800) 828 – 0498
1 (800) 459 – 1887
1 (800) 614 – 2803
1 (866) 340 – 9281
1 (866) 338 – 1015
1 (877) 851 – 6437
(Photo via AP.)
Related posts:





Spotlight








Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About Firedoglake
Advanced search

yo
More
Verizon, AT&T broadband policies allow for censorship of unfriendly opinions
Nick Juliano
Published: Wednesday October 10,
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/….._1010.html
Proposed FISA update would not give telecom companies legal protection
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/….._1009.html
thanks for all you do CHS and FDL team..you inspire!
NO RETROACTIVE IMMUNITY….NO
Why does Steny always have to be a snake in the grass? Whose side is he on anyway?
Kathleen @ 4
DITTO
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 5
Lieberman’s?
Who put the “Ho” in Hoyer?
OT- The House is having the prayer delivered by the Supreme Patriarch of the Armenian Church, prior to considering the resolution condemning the Armenian genocide. Turkey is threating retaliation if such a measure is passed. A quick up yours to them, perhaps?
As you call, can you please let us know how the calls are going? It’s really helpful to know the public stances — or lack thereof — from the various members on this. Thanks much, gang, for all the calls and activism. It is much appreciated.
Let the current very bad bill expire and go back to the old FISA rules unless and until the people who are trying so hard to smarm something through start operating in an honest fashion?
Well, if the sticking point having to do with calls which are purely overseas, but somehow pass through U.S. lines, or fiber-optic lines, or whatever it was that the FISA court found to be a problem – is fixed, I’m in agreement.
Question – is there anyone who can speak honestly as to the amount of time it takes, in day-to-day practice, to prepare a FISA warrant? Abu(?) (McConnell?) claimed some ridiculous amount of time which made no sense to me. Aren’t most of these things just pre-prepared boiler-plate, with some spaces left open to fill in the blanks of a given factual situation?
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 5
His own…
“we should not set a precedent of the US Congress rewarding bad faith actions [with immunity] of big money donors in an issue of Constitutional and rule of law importance such as this. Period.”
Well put. That is exactly the point Redd. And that is probably exactly why the retroactive immunity will be granted.
the other really weird thing going on is that representative holt also submitted a fisa bill yesterday, the FISA Modernization Bill (in addition to the RESTORE ACT). both bills were referred to committee, but only the RESTORE ACT is being marked up today (by both committees) in rushed hearings.
i’m trying to track down the text of the holt bill (it’s not on thomas yet), but here’s what the ACLU has to say about it (via email this morning):
after the kabkui we witnessed the first time around in august, i don’t have a good feeling about the process that’s unfolding. of course it’s hard to tell what’s going on, when so much of it is behind closed doors… good thing christy has sources of her own. for my part, i’m just going to be watching the public proceedings very carefully.
Who in the hell are Hoyer, and Rahm Emmanuel trying to protect? Certainly not American citizens or US National Security.
This company has access to almost all phone companies in the US billing systems. They also do data mining
http://www.amdocs.com/Site/AmdocsCom.htm
this is one of the companies they are trying to protect
Trying to protect
http://www.cmvt.com/aboutCTI.asp?top=1&id=2
Watch this piece on these telecommunication companies
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aUzuzs2oC0
jayt at 11 — LHP has said that they can take anywhere from 14 hours to 48, depending on the complexity, the number of people involved and the circumstances. The biggest time sink is that the USAtty and/or FBI or other leadership position folks in the various agencies have to personally sign off on the warrants. And they are not always available 24 hours a day.
I used to do warrant work with cops and investigators when I worked in the prosecutor’s office, and our local judges and my boss were on call at all times — we always had someone available. The FISA judges work on 24-hour rotations, as in there is always a judge on call. There ought to be some way to work that for the USAs and the FBI and other agencies as well, so that should not be a hindrance on something this important.
Sure, Mr. Preznit here’s all the FISA you want, oh, and by the way we’ve added S-CHIP to the legislation and expanded it to $135 billion, just because it’s the right thing to do.
Thank you for your lovely signature.
Love,
The Democrats of America
“Choose your battles” is a prudent political axiom.
BUT, you have to at least choose.
The chatter is deafening – Why aren’t the Dems showing more spine…. Ms. Pelosi… Mr. Reid.. “Where is the fire in the belly… The Soundbite repeated and repeated until it becomes a mantra for your side? Where?
You can’t win shit with blandness and political expediency oozing from the corners of your closed mouth.
Thinking you can take the “safe zone” while people run from Republicans in droves has never worked in the history of politics.
These people need to be thrown out of their leadership posts if they can’t lead, but insist on following.
The classic definition of a leader – figure out where the people want to go, and get out in front of them – is dead on point.
Pelosi and Reid should either lead, follow – someone else – or get the hell out of the way.
Read Maureen Dowd on Mrs. Clinton’s “political expediency” strategy this morning. Go here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10…..amp;emc=th
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 5
The side of the snakes!
Christy -
Just got off the phone with McIntyre’s office in SE NC. Lady was very nice but claimed not to have heard of the SCHIP ad, after which I proceeded to “educate” her a little about what the family has been going thu’.
Finished up with a few choice comments wrt FISA.
He has four different numbers listed in his district plus the village number. Should I call all the others as well?
Calling John Poindexter?
TIA anyone?
1,622 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Hardin Smith and the Firepup Patriots:
I wonder if the best tactic for the Progressive Caucus in the House wouldn’t be ta work ta sunset the whole thing and let the current cases wind their way through the courts. The Democratic leadership could whine that those damned hippy, left-wingers obstructed the passage of a new bill but as long as they don’t cave in to the White House we get the original FISA law back in action and it will be impossible to get another started in this session. What’s the chance of Pelosi, Hoyer and Emmanuel usin’ this to save face and simultaneously do the right thing?
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION…THE BASTARDS ARE DANCIN’ AROUND THEIR OWN PETARD!
Morning all.
That’s quite a photo up there. They’re all looking kinda gloomy. Nancy in her vintage red…
Christy Hardin Smith says
October 10th, 2007 at 7:12 am
Thanks!
Warrantless “data mining”
http://www.newsfollowup.com/amdocs.htm
Go read 4.a
http://www.newsfollowup.com/id…..esbold.pdf
Christy Hardin Smith @ 16
Christy-
IMO The ‘unavailability’ of USAs and FBI agents has been a pointed tactic.
Well, you see, the US Attorneys are so busy chasing down all that Democratic voter fraud.
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 5
The I-lobby buried Murtha and got Hoyer elected..no question about it
HJC hearing has begun… conyers making an opening statement.
i’m making an audio recording and will post the mp3 as a podcast for firepups who want to give it a listen, but have to miss listening live.
And I suspect that Chimpy’s Rose Garden announcement will probably have to do with that SITE tape leak of the Osama bin Laden tape, the issue that Dana Perino fumbled trying to explain yesterday.
Looking for volunteers to liveblog the House Judiciary Committee hearing.
So are there two bills, one bad one better? Sounds like RESTORE is bad. I want to be clear. I called my rep yesterday.
The I-lobby buried Murtha and got Hoyer elected..no question about it
Except that members of the outofIraq caucus like Maxine Waters also supported him. He is a lifelong political hack and lots of people owe him favors.
And why is Bernie Sanders (I-VT) the only Senator in the Congressional Progressive Caucus? Pathetic.
Judiciary Committee FISA hearing on C-Span 2 now
Nadler up
Reposted from downstairs…my hope is that everyone will learn to see it for what it is and develop strategies for confronting it.
I wish this country would wrap their arms around the concept of power and control. This is a set of behaviors meant to keep someone in submission. These are the behaviors that batterers use against wives and children, these are the behaviors used in military and police training. These are the behaviors used in cults. Hitler used power and control. Bush uses power and control. Spying and fisa issues are abuses of power and control. The problem is that our congress does not know how to effectively fight it. First and foremost people need to understand what it is…and that it represents WEAKNESS not strength. The American people often will confuse the use of power and control with strength.
Our people need to recognize the behaviors of tyranny, and learn to reject messages that are wrapped in this code.
Here’s the list of behaviors associated with power and control.
Intimidation: loud, angry voices, cruel words, size and money intimidate.
Name calling and mind games: any name calling or behavior that is meant to put someone else in a down under position.
Isolation: Keeping those who have submitted from hearing other views and ideas, keeping people from information that would tell them that they are being abused or mistreated. (fox news, media control)
invalidation: Minimize, deny or blame where violence occurs. It was no big deal, it didn’t happen, or if it did happen it was your fault–you deserved.
treating people as objects: racism, sexism, using children.
King of the castle: It’s mine…so I can do what I want.
financial abuse: controlling assets in order to keep people stuck or immobile.
Coercion and threats: If you don’t do as I say, you will pay. Something bad will happen to you. (al-queda anyone??)
Power and control works. If you use it to fight back the fight always escalates. The people who abuse power and control will always escalate to a level that most people would not comfortably go. They are willing to hurt people, to go all the way to gain control.
The solution…uncover it, and refuse to be moved by it. It must stop working. America needs to understand this dynamic. Any collusion makes it bigger and more effective. You may fight back but only if you are certain you can win.
Don’t give in to it, call it what it is, shame and discredit anyone who is using it. I have the power wheel on my fridge. We work hard at my house to avoid those behaviors and my children now know and understand what it is.
bg @ 31
my impression from reading analysis – not the bills:
RESTORE ACT is much better than the evil senate bill. but, the RESTORE ACT is still flawed (because it allows “basket warrants”) and the holt bill is the best (it requires individual warrants).
we’ll know more when we’ve been able to read the bills. but, by then it may be all over in congress.
The National Commisssion on Terrorist Attacks upon the United States
The Senate Select Committee on Intelligence
http://www.newsfollowup.com/id…..esbold.pdf
If you want to read who was using AMDOCs and how. Read the whole report
or got to page 22 and start with “on April 4th” and read a bit about Amdocs
For whom does Steny “The Caveman” Hoyer work? Certainly not the American electorate. And certainly not rank-and-file democrats.
I seem to recall that it came down to a choice between Murtha and Hoyer, and Pelosi insisted on Hoyer. I wonder why?
And Rahm Emanuel is another piece of work. Last year as head of DCCC he actively sought out Republicans to run in the Democratic primaries against progressive candidates. He’s certainly not working for the U.S. electorate and/or the rank-and-file democrats either.
selise @ 28
Jerry Nadler up & I’ve got to drive in to work. Damn.
So glad you’re recording an audio for this- thanks, selise.
You do great work selise. You amaze me!
egregious @ 30
i can’t do more than the occassional comment this morning – hope others will jump in.
selise @ 37
Restore says (at least yesterday) “no retroactive immunity” this is critical for US National Security.
Bobby Scott of VA up
jayt @ 11
I can. I did a panel on this for other lawyers not too long ago. The actual preparation of the warrant application is no more exotic than any other warrant.
Assuming that your agents have already uncovered enough info to give you probable cause (THAT IS A BIG ASSUMPTION, though), you interview your agent, write up his affidavit, xerox any documents that you are using as exhibits to the affidavit and put the whole package together.
If I have all the info ready to hand, I can do it in one long day.
That’s not the problem. FISA warrants unlike other warrants are subject to MUCH MUCH more internal review, both within the FBI and within the US Attorney’s Office and Main Justice.
Further, these internal review procedures often have a particular person, (i.e. only Sam or Bob can sign off), rather than a class of persons (i.e. any deputy criminal division chief) who must review and sign off. So, if that person is travelling, or out sick, you have to wait for them to come back.
Don’t forget there’s superduper secret stuff in these affidavits so you just can’t fax a draft to a Kinko’s in the Bahama’s b/c the guy you need to sign off happens to be on vacation that week.
Some of the review and sign off can only happen seriatim, that is Bob can’t review it until it has already been approved by Sam. So, if a pre-request approval in the chain doesn’t happen, either because that person is unavailable or because that person has issues with the documents, everything grinds to a halt.
Finally, the FBI has an internal rule that if an agent is the affiant on a warrant application and the application is denied, that agent cannot be used as a witness at trial in future. This is kinda a career killer.
So, agents themselves are very cautious about being willing to sign an affidavit that they don’t believe is rock solid. I’ve had agents flat out refuse to sign a thin, but I believed legally sufficient affidavit at least once. It wasn’t for a FISA warrant, but I want you to understand the culture.
Civil liberties advocates like to make a big deal about how there is no reported instance of a FISA warrant ever being turned down as if that makes the FISA judges some kind of passive rubber stamps.
No, to the contrary, it is a mark of the last remaining vestiges of professionalism and respect for the rule of law being forced by middle managers at FBI and DOJ.
You know, the career people.
A very dear friend of mine is one of the (only this guy can sign off) people and I have seen how much he will drop everything, cancel the second honeymoon with the wife and work round the clock for 2-3 weeks at a time, it takes just for his one signature.
OK, I’ll admit, he is a stickler for the Constitution (one of the many reasons I am so fond of him), but other people in that chain of approvals are just as tough as he is. By the time it actually gets to a FISA judge, the application is as rock solid as fallible humans can make it. And the FISA judges know this.
You would be shocked at how many FISA warrant applications die aborning. Smacked down at the first or second level of review. Oh and having your application shot down internally, while not as bad as a warrant application turn down, is definitely not good for anybody’s advancement prospects. So the AUSA’s tend to be self conscious about bringing good applications.
Over 90% of all FISA warrants are issued to just two FBI field offices: DC and NYC. And NYC has more than DC. The process in NY is very strict. Thank Dog for “career” employees and middle managers, they are our last safeguards.
So, yes it takes weeks, even months, at least once more than a year to get a FISA warrant signed, but not because of anything that you could possibly need to change about the FISA law. Because of the need to carefully vet the intell that forms the basis for a finding of probable cause.
There is no change to the FISA law that will change this timeline, except to the extent you try to take away accountabilty–which would be a bad thing.
FISA wasn’t broke, it didn’t need fixing. It needed minor updating to reflect changes in telecommunications technology, such as the roving wiretap; and the “FISA wall” needed to come down—but that was really a misinterpretation of law by Jamie Gorelick, it was a bad memo.
The telcos have a lot to do with telephony and internets™ traffic, eh?
Steny is a Washington hack. You pays your money and you takes your choice.
selise at 37 — That’s my understanding on it as well, FWIW.
Oh man, the DeeCee-ocrats must hate that now we can watch their every move. All the old tricks don’t work as well as they used to!
I want to keep driving on how important it is to properly frame the discussion wnenever we talk to our representatives
ESPECIALLY republican representatives, if we use terms like “unconstitutional”, and “violates my privacy” they’ll almost ignore you
if you use terms like;
“stealing my intelectual property”
“spying on my wife and kids, I don’t want ANYONE given the right to look up the dress of my wife or daughter, I INSIST there are judges to make sure deviants aren’t getting into office so they cam look check out my kids and look up my wifes dress”
see that?
it’s VERY important to put that kind of face on fisa, VERY important, and we CANNOT allow them to make believe warrants are too dificult to get, they can begin their search WELL BEFORE the warrant is even applied for
we can perhaps extend that grace period, I wouldn’t mind something like that, but they MUST get approval for EACH AND EVERY person they spy
they ARE stealing, they ARE taking information that has NOTHING to do with national security, if it DID have something to do with our security they would have NO problem getting approval, but they don’t want ANYONE making sure tehy are not stealing
and THAT is how we need to frame this discussion, ESPECIALLY when we are talking to people that defend this administration as if it has some kind of bussiness doing these things without anyone to check up on them
Kathleen @ 43
yes, that is one of the reasons that the RESTORE ACT is supposed to be much better than the senate bill.
but all is in flux – the purpose of a markup hearing is to change and make additions to the text of bills.
hopefully we’ll be ok, because the dems on this committee are ok – not like in the senate where leahy has to contend with difi.
selise @ 14
I gotta tell you, I’m with the ACLU on this and I think Jack Goldsmith is wrong on this. Even if passed into law by Congress (Which Goldsmith advocated), I believe that basket warrants are inherently unconstitutional in that they cannot possibly be founded in the kind of specific probable cause which the Constitution requires.
selise @ 37
RESTORE Act text is up at TPM. I linked to it in a comment on last night’s Late Late Nite.
Basket warrant is the only major problem I saw in a quick post-midnight read. Of course, that’s a bit like saying “Yeah, you have a tumor the size of a baseball on your pancreas, but otherwise you’re perfectly healthy.”
Christy Hardin Smith @ 16
To Clarify, That up to 48 hours is to draw up the papers, not to get them approved.
LHP at 45 — I would love it if I could use parts of that in a post today. Would you mind?
I realize the constitution is out of fashion these days, but I remember there being a no ex post facto clause in there. Why wouldn’t retroactive immunity violate that?
Burns’ TPM link
Looks like a PDF.
thanks lhp!
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 5
I should think that the answer to those questions are self evident. He IS a snake in the grass and he is on Bush’s side (and the side of Telcos…or ANY corporation, for that matter).
kdh22 @ 25
Actually, the unavailability of the FBI agent doing the affidavit can sometimes be a major problem. That agent may be in Afghanistan or Pakistan and you need his signature on a document that can only be transmitted in a secure way. In the old days that meant in the diplomatic pouch (things may be more electronic now, I never asked), so if you didn’t have it just right and changes had to made to the draft, it would be easy to lose a week or more, especially if the agent was travelling into the capital city from some remote location.
Biodun @ 33
What Senator besides Feingold(and Sanders) could truly be considered progressive?
I don’t see why having someone on call 24/7 is a hurdle in the blackberry / beeper / cell phone age.
If this is so damn important find judges who are prepared to accept their responsibility 24/7.
We are seeing the rise of fascism and the demise of democracy.
Rep Sheila Jackson Lee up
nadler up to propose an amendment – conyers has the it “considered as read” (damn). nadler is describing the changes, but i’m having trouble following the details without the text in front of me. will have to review it after the hearing.
SanderO at 61 — Are you kidding me? As if terrorism investigation details can just be e-mailed over the Blackberry network or a random internet connection and stay secure? Think about that for a moment, would you?
Praedor Atrebates @ 58
It leads me to wonder. Has anyone ever asked Hoyer, or any of the Bush Dogs, why they are Democrats? Take the 5 holdouts on S-Chip. Why are they holding out for? Do they think this will win them votes back home? I don’t get it.
http://www.icdc.com/~paulwolf/…..rtIIcd.htm
The propensity for abuse of these “laws” is staggering. The notion that information obtained under FISA amended or not, will not be used against Americans runs contrary to reality and common sense. Even if communication tech has advanced, human nature has not!!! “Church final report link “
Christy Hardin Smith @ 54
I don’t mind at all, just fix the typos.
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 65
Many are Democrats only because only a Democrat could easily get elected in the district/state they represent.
burnspbesq @ 52
the RESTORE ACT text is posted at the HJC website too – i’ve got a link to it (and the not yet functional thomas link) on the weekly congressional hearings list.
just haven’t found text of holt’s bill yet. don’t want to go looking now, since i’m trying to listen to the hearing (with one ear at least). will look more after the hearing (and i have a call into holt’s office – the text maybe in my email already).
looseheadprop @ 45
LHP
Thank you!!!! Will you call Steny for us? :)
Christy, for what it’s worth, I’m not in favor of suing the telecomms. I think we can make their lives just as miserable and come out ahead of the game if we extract concessions from them on net neutrality, free municipal wireless, ala carte pricing of entertainment and news packaging and the severely limiting their participation in auctioning off of the analog spectrum that’s coming up next year. Throw in a “if we find out you’ve spied on us again, we’ll take you to the cleaners for all current and past infractions” statement and be done with it.
Let’s just put FISA back where it was before the Bushies started to tinker with it and force the telecomms to innovate. They are still going to shriek like banshees and we’ll be much better off in the end.
looseheadprop @ 51
How is a basket warrant meaningfully different from a writ of assistance? Wasn’t the use of writs of assistance part of the causus belli for the Revolution? Did Goldsmith sleep through every American History class he ever took, going all the way back to high school?
loosheadprop @ 51
Even if SCOTUS agrees 9-0 that basket warrants are unconstitutional, who will ever have standing to challenge them? Isn’t this part of their catch-22?
Christy,
You don’t need to detail any details. All you have to do is tell the Judge that he needs to sign a FISA warrant ASAP and to report to work.
Forbearance means – patience under insult – aka ‘taking it.’
We have to practice Forbearance if we are going to ‘call out’ Bush’s Oppression of US.
When Move-on ‘calls out’ Bush’s Betrayal of Trust – We Know It Hurts Them – because they yelp, then attack.
That’s when We practice Forbearance – their furious invective will soon subside. And that’s when We leap to the keyboards and run the ‘all-too-true’ Label Gun across their foreheads, again, tagging them with another Truth About Themselves They Don’t Want to See.
The long term effect is to ‘chip away’ with reason from the monolithic, but irrational block of the Strict Daddies Narrative/Ideology.
Marathon not a Sprint, like we frequently say…eventually BushCo will implode from its own corruption.
OT..This could get interesting.
AP
katherine Graham Cracker @ 32
I second this message. In fact, my comment was going to be maybe you could start with Maxine Waters who was on TV talking up Steny before the vote. There is no excuse for what this Congress is willing to give up to this lawless administration.
Nadler: Everyone wants to protect us from terrorists so let’s cut out the crap and restore checks and balances.
Go Jerry!
SanderO @ 61
OK, I don’t usually jump down a commentor’s throat, but this is a slander.
FISA judges certaily DO accept 24/7 reposnibilty. They have gotten up in ht emiddle of the night and driven or fly to US Attorney’’s Office, FBI field offices and safe houses to hear hear warrant applications. I know of a specific incident where a judge had the AUS’s and Agents in his living room in the wee small hours of th morning and conducted the hearing right there, in his Pj’s.
it’s kind of a big cocktail party story, because the judge’s wife started to come downstairs to offer to make coffee and the jude got all upset that she might have inadvertantly heard something for which she did not posses a security clearance.
FISA jduges are very accessable and travel whereever they need to go at the drop of hat to get things done in a timely fashion.
For the hundreth time. The problem is not that the law is too restrictive, the probelm is not htat the judges are inaccesible. There are two delay causing factors, one bad, one gfood:
The bad factor–crappy intel
the good factor__the unwillingness of career people to sign off on something that is not well supported by genuine probale cause
Ann in AZ @ 77
So how did someone like Waters get suckered in by slime like Hoyer?
Sander — Even saying you are working on a warrant can disclose source and method and intel infiltration information in some circumstances. There are very good reasons that you never, ever talk about this sort of thing in open channels. What Valerie and her co-horts went through is a big example of why — but having known undercover folks in my day not in intel but just in run-of-the-mill drug and/or other types of conspiracy cases where deep cover was required, the gyrations that you have to go through to keep identity secret are enormous. Because the threats to safety and the results of disclosure are so much worse.
nadler is giving them hell!
everyone wants to protect americans. so cut out the rhetoric.
the question isn’t whether we want to protect the people, the question is how will we protect the people in ways that are consistent with america’s founding tradition.
Steve-AR @ 76
It would be helpful if the US had a qualified Sec’y of State for things like this.
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 60
So why is Feingold not in there?
Badwater @ 83
Yes, that would be nice.
MUST.STOP.DREAMING.AT.WORK.
Roll call on Nadler amendment:
Yea 23
Nay 14
burnspbesq @ 72
I think Jack Goldsmith is a very smart man. Very smart. I think he is a very knowledgeable lawyer. I jsut disagree with him about some fundamentals. I don’t think the Constitution is as elestic as some would try to make it (i full dislcosure, I don’t believe in that elasticity heading in the liberal direction either and have long scoffed at the SCOTUS created idea of penumbral rights).
I think there are some very bright lines in the Constitution and you just cannot cross them, no matter how good the reason.
realworld @ 73
Telecoms would. Remember, Qwest at least, seems to have a functioning general counsel’s office. The rest of them, really do need to reconsider what kind of lawyers they have working for them
by A.B. Stoddard
The Hill
April 25, 2007
Just 36 hours after ending a dozen years of GOP control in Congress last November, Reps. Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) and Steny Hoyer (D-Md.) sat with President Bush and Vice President Cheney in the Oval Office for photographs that would be transmitted worldwide.
The favorite camera angle was the shot over Cheney’s head, capturing Pelosi between Hoyer and Bush. All three smiled uncomfortably and spoke the language of cooperation. But all three knew that Pelosi had tried to leave Hoyer out of the high-powered lunch.
According to knowledgeable sources, when Bush called Pelosi at home to invite her to lunch she noted that, since there was a race for majority leader and Hoyer might no longer serve in the leadership in the next Congress, Bush may not want to include him. Bush ignored Pelosi’s suggestion and invited Hoyer anyway.
http://democraticleader.house……aseID=1941
this is from an article about Hoyer written by shrill gooper shill AB SToddard
all you need to know about Steny
FISA mark-up is being covered on C-Span2. FYI.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 90
thank you and good morning!
Bush does an Oil Deal with Hunt Oil and the Kurdish semi-autonomous Regional Government (not through the Federal Government in Baghdad)…
…Turkey starts shelling the Kurds.
Everything Bush Touches Turns to Shit!
radiofreewill @ 75
I like your optimism but I don’t share it.
This fucking administration will never give
in unless we impeach the rat bastards…
They are irrational and crazy!
Good News? In our dystopian country, who knows.
Reuters
Some others who supported Hoyer
they need to call in their chips
Eight senior Democrats circulated a letter yesterday backing Hoyer.
“Nancy and Steny have been a terrific team, helping our caucus achieve great unity,” wrote Reps. Barney Frank (D-Mass.), John Dingell (D-Mich.), John Lewis (D-Ga.), Henry Waxman (D-Calif.), Lucille Roybal-Allard (D-Calif.), Ellen Tauscher (D-Calif.), James Oberstar (D-Minn.) and Ike Skelton (D-Mo.). “Steny has worked nonstop for House Democrats.”
It’s long past time to worry about suing telecoms.
Let’s face it.
As long as conglomerates control the electronic media in America–the medium of choice for political dialogue in the marketplace of ideas in the twenty-first century–then the common people of the United States are effectively EXCLUDED from democratic participation in our political process by financial and monopoly barriers to entry.
Corporate media control is undemocratic.
Period.
There is no longer any “compromise” solution possible.
All electronic media must come under immediate and complete PUBLIC CONTROL in the United States so that democracy can be restored.
Then we’ll talk about “compromise.”
But let’s put first things first.
We demand absolute public media ownership.
looseheadprop @ 88
Didn’t Quest just refuse the request or do I remember this incorrectly? If we have to rely on the telco’s to protect our rights well…
It would seem the only other individual with standing would be someone who was in the basket. However, no one would ever know if they were in the basket and so based on the recent views of SCOTUS on standing, no one could challenge the warrant.
IANAL. Am I missing something?
crap – phone call interruptions….
did some gooper just put forward an amendment which “amends” the mark-up just passed by totally saying the opposite, including retroactive immunity?
jayt at 98 — Yes.
If the Dems are going to offer retroactive immunity to the telecoms, the least we ought to get in exchange would be something BIG. Like net neutrality legislation.
I’m not averse to horse-trading, but ISTM that Steny Hoyer and his clique want to just give away the horse, without getting more than maybe a horseshoe in return.
realworld @ 97
My recollection is that Qwest upon the advice of counsel refused whatever unholy thing the Admin was asking the telecoms to do.
It occurs to me that the telecoms might have standing to challenge an unconstitutional statue IF they had liability exposure, because that might fufill the “actual case in controversy” requirement.
Read all of this. Understand that they are not only trying to protect US owned telecommunication systems illegal wiretapping, but illegal “datamining” by Israeli based communications systems.
Read this whole report
http://www.newsfollowup.com/id…..esbold.pdf
go read Section 4 The Israeli DEA Groups
A. Backgrounds in Intelligence Electronic Intercept and communications Unit
B. Connections to Israeli wiretapping and telecommunication systems
c. Israeli surveillance of U.S. Government offices, laboratories, and residences and other strategic areas
D. Spying on the United States
1. THE DEA FEARED ITS COMMUNICATIONS SYSTEMS HAD BEEN COMPROMISED
Go read SECTION 6 and Section 10
If you want to understand just who they are trying to protect and who is listening to American citizens…(not just US telecommunication systems but telecommunications companies in Israel)
Nice Systems
Amdocs
Comverse Insofys
It occurs to me that the telecoms might have standing to challenge an unconstitutional statue IF they had liability exposure, because that might fufill the “actual case in controversy” requirement.
Bingo!!
looseheadprop @ 101
and then they prosecuted the head of the for insider trading
1. Dan Lundgren is an Iss-hole.
2. Guess it’s now on the Congressional Record that the Telecom’s have indeed been spying on us. Thanks, Dan.
low-tech cyclist @ 100
I like that. A firm guarantee that net neutrality will never be threatened. Ever.
LHP @ 101
Again, IANAL but wouldn’t they lose all liability if they were presented with a warrant, even if, were it challenged in court, it might turn out to have been invalid?
It’s pretty clear that there are no secure public communications. There is a fig leaf and kabuki like FISA court which seems like our 4th amendment rights are secure.
They’re not.
When they want you, or something you said. They get it and they don’t need or care about the law.
That’s abundantly clear.
We need to find judges and prosecutors who will bring these criminals to justice. And definitely not hide behind some bogus national security state secrets claim.
We need daylight more than we need so called state secrets.
Here’s how the kabuki will play out IMHOP
1. Regardless of the Holt or markup bill passing the House
2.The Senate will pass a toothless bill that Greenwald et al fear, and
3. The joint conference will end up giving the Administration all they want including retroactive immunity. If they can’t pass it through both houses, some aid to Specter will insert all the administration wants and the president will sign with an attached signing statement and,
4. we will still not be privy to the flimsy legal reasoning nor what’s been done under color of law.
Sorry for the rant, but somehow i have seen this before.
I think we progressives are all that stand between fascism and getting back the country whose values I hold self evident.
Bay State Librul at 93
I think you are right on – We do need to Impeach – it’s just that We can’t do it ourselves.
We need the Goopers to jump off their Bus before We can Impeach BushCo.
Then it’s no big deal to let them drive off the cliff towards the Hague as private citizens on the way to their Just Due.
Our Truth-telling Couch – at present an object of derision by them – will look mighty good compared to the open vistas of Free Flight bound for a hard stop called Reality.
We can help them by pointing out where their Ideology begins to resemble more Fantasy than Fact – from our couches. More defections equals less damage to all of US.
A Gooper Implosion can be a Dangerous, but Entertaining show – patience and humor can go every bit as far as their Bus can fly…
Read this report you will find that they are not just trying to protect US telecommunication companies they are trying to give “retroactive immunity” to Israeli based communication systems
The National Commisssion on Terrorist Attacks upon the United States
The Senate Select Committee on Intelligence
http://www.newsfollowup.com/id…..esbold.pdf
Democracy is not the kind of process the powers that be understand. It’s damn inconvenient.
A right is not something that someone can give you, but some will take it away.
The Thugs are great at multi-tasking; here is another one.
U.S. Seeks Rules to Allow Increase in Guest Workers
(snip)
The National Council of Agricultural Employers has written to the administration to urge changes like speeding up the H-2A application process, easing housing requirements for guest workers, reducing the required wage for these workers and increasing the types of work they are allowed to do — poultry processing might be included, for instance. Grower groups have also urged the administration to ease requirements that they run newspaper advertisements to determine whether American workers want the jobs.
(snip)
NYT
“Ease housing requirements and reduce wages”
Them Mexcans been livi’n high and gett’n overpaid. Jeebus!
I have sent the following letter to bith my Illinois Senators in hopes that they will try and stop the cave in.
Dear Senator Obama:
I have been reading quite a bit on how the Democrat’s will cave in on the FISA bill. I sincerely hope you will not be among them. The very premise of the Patriot Act assumes that government should be trusted. This is totally irresponsible. Government should never be fully trusted. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. There has to be legimate oversight.
Many of the basic principles of our country are scrapped in this bill. Every generation feels that “their” situation is unique and the rules shouldn’t apply to them. But the Constitution has survived intact for over two hundred years because we have adhered to our basic principles. These values are what define us as a country and what the rest of the world sees as our strength. We should not be so willing to throw all of this away.
The other aspect of these situation that troubles me is the possibility of amnesity for the corporations that may have violated the law. This has been used continuously by this administration. If they truly believe that they were within the law when they implimented these programs, then they shouldn’t be worried about their ability to prove they’re right in a court of law. By demanding that they get retroactive immunity, it shows that they are concerned about the legality of their actions from the start.
I would urge you to discuss this with the other members of Congress and please stand up for our American values.
Jane’s new post is upstairs.
Yankee Fans Hate Rudy
And btw the substitute bad amendment failed.
why do we need ANY bill? why not let the old one expire and go back to the old FISA system that was constitutional?
remember it takes 60 votes to get anything passed? Well, can we find forty one Democrats to filibuster this sucker?
realworld @ 107
There are lines of cases, including the military ones about not follwing an illegal order, that say if something is obvously deficient on it’s face, you cannot rely on it.
That was apparetnly the Qwest position. It could work. I’m not saying it’s a slam dunk, just that it’s a viable theory.
The Israeli right wants to be free to pursue it’s religious manifest destiny.
The US wants to pursue it’s oil addiction and thirst for power in the world.
There is some mutuality here and so Israel is exerting undo influence on our ship of state.
No Nation State Lobby shops
No for profit corporate lobby shops
Term limits for ALL elected and appointed officials
Public finance for all elected office
Break up the telcom monopolies
Reinstate a Fairness Doctrine
Prove the Terrorism threat, don’t just asset it.
Who are the AG rain makers. Name them. ALL of them. Publish their names and pictures. Let’s see who the enemy is.
realworld @ 107
That argument has been made..If the tele-coms loose in court, it will be the Fed. Gov’t that will have to pay.
It has been speculated that the tele-coms are afraid that court cases will expose the illegal monitoring and spying that they have been doing for years as part of “business and marketing”. The exposure of those illegal practices would ruin them.
SanderO @ 118
Oil, Israel, and America: The Root Cause of the Crisis
By Scott Ritter
10/09/07
http://www.informationclearing…..e18529.htm
liberal elite @ 96
Here is a question that needs to be asked. “Is it acceptable for a foreign nation (Israel) to conduct electronic surveillance on US citizens? Is it acceptable for Israeli based commications systems to use access to almost all US phone companies systems to wiretap and data mine US
citizens communications?”
Read this report please
http://www.newsfollowup.com/id…..esbold.pdf
Somehow, my actual comment in #121 got eliminated instead of published. What I said was something like:
You’re kidding, right? I say this because to me, “public control” means “government control,” which is something I certainly do not want here!
The government is the people. It is our government and it to serve the people’s interest and protect their rights.
Alice @ 116
They, meaning the Rs and some of the Ds, want absolute immunity for the telecoms. That’s why this is being brought forth in the first place.
So, in answer to your question, a 41 senator filibuster doesn’t appear to be in the offing.
SanderO @ 118
Oil, Israel, and America: The Root Cause of the Crisis
By Scott Ritter
10/09/07
http://www.informationclearing…..e18529.htm
Great Post on point!!!
I agree, if they can’t get a better FISA bill passed now, then just let this one expire. No bill is better than a bad bill.
the HJC is taking a break for lunch… will retun at 1:30 to continue with markup hearing
When does the Intelligence Committee markup go forward? Does anyone know if that’s going to be televised? What should our talking points be for targeted members?
liberal elite @ 129
the intelligence committee markup hearing was scheduled for 10:30 am. i don’t know if there’s anywhere we can watch – indeed i may be a closed hearing (i just don’t know – it’s not even listed on the committee website yet).
Elliott @ 104
I’m sorry, but if you are postulating a link between those two events I have to call cow-manure, unless you’ve got some real, reliable evidence. That’s pure tinfoil-hat stuff.
Post hoc, ergo propter hoc is nearly always a fallacy.
selise @ 130
Rep. Anna Eshoo, Intelligence Subcomittee Chair, is being interviewed now on C-Span 2, so I doubt they are in session at the moment.
edit—Unless this was taped earlier. Never mind.
Wow, CHS, this post reflects all the incredible pavement pounding and shoe leather spent on chasing these stories down. Murrow would be proud!
Thanks for being a most intrepid attention payer and reporter. Kudos.
One important point on this. Wouldn’t the law go back to the original FISA law when the time runs down (Dec 2007) on the temporary measure. If Bush vetos this…or the Senate and House cannot reach agreement things simply go back to where they were before August. Of course that will rescind any of the bulldada claims that domestic phone companies can receive immunity for violating Federal law, or that warrants aren’t needed for domestic espionage, etc.
If Bush really wants to deal with this loophole of foreign terrorists calling domestic supporters…and the need not to follow FISA Court rules which even allow a post-hoc warrant upon justification….then he can pass the law which is the one backed by the Progressives. But since he really wants to indemnify ILLEGAL ACTS of domestic espionage and large scale collection and manipulation of vast amounts of Domestic electronic communication he wants MORE. And that MORE is also an open door to obtaining PHYSICAL (non electronic) evidence through warrantless searches as well.
metalguitar @ 55
Because in ex post facto one cannot increase sanctions that were legal at the time of action. But one CAN reduce penalties and that prior convictions on the higher penalties are subsequently reduced.
Thus if one increased penalties for marijuana possession it ONLY applies to convictions after the law is enacted…but if one reduces the penalty, say from a felony to a misdemeanor…all those serving time get out of jail.
Puesto @ 18
It’s very unlikely that the so-called Protect America Act will be allowed to expire in February without some sort of extension or replacement being passed, and unfortunately, if it becomes a mad dash to pass *something* at that time, it could work out badly for those of us committed to defending liberty. However, that is absolutely no excuse to pass a bad bill.
This fight is just getting started and Repubs in the House will stop at nothing and will use every procedural tool they can to extend the executive authority granted in the PAA and to give telecom companies retroactive immunity (at the top of the White House’s wish list). The fight in the Senate could be even more brutal since it seems Democrats there may be willing to give more away, and if someone like Feinstein (who happens to sit on both the Judiciary and Intel Committees) turns out to be friendly to telecom immunity, we could be sunk.
The most important thing is that any bill that makes it to final consideration not bear any resemblance to the PAA, which was a travesty and needs to be repealed. The question, once again, is will Congress sacrifice our constitutional rights on the altar of ‘compromise.’
People For the American Way has a petition urging Congress to show some spine and not compromise our fundamental rights in this fight. You can sign it at:
http://www.pfaw.org/go/Spine
wigwam @ 39
It wasn’t Pelosi’s decision – it came down to caucus votes == Hoyer sealed the deal == mostly with the kind of money he had to play with from his Leadership PAC == then you have to ask where did he get the money!
Noting that Hoyer is also heavily involved in the DLC and A*P*C* — His Friendship/Leadership PAC $$$ handed out during the 2006 election was significant!
http://www.opensecrets.org/pac…..cycle=2006
slightly off topic — but I got this note in my Verizon bill today ? Anyone know which side of the aisle this came from?
here’s the link to the webpage with the mp3 audio files of today’s hearing. part 1 is the morning session, part 2 is the afternoon.
i’m sure c-span will be putting their streaming videos up in their archive soon, but if you’d rather have audio, or can’t wait…
Hi Firepups! Hoyer’s a Dino Dirtbag, but don’t blame all the capitulation on him.
I recommend a link to Nancy (Neville) Pelosi’s hometown paper today: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/…..;hw=Pelosi candid talk&sn=001&sc=1000
In her “candid talk” w/ reporters she defends her fake, defanged “opposition” to Bush and lack of any progress on ending the war, refusal to impeach, and her own unpopularity in her home district. She also attacked 2 NYT reporters for highlighting her complete capitulation on the criminal wiretapping.
Wake up people! The Demo’s are a corporate party as much as the ReThugs, but they don’t spew hate & intolerance in the same way, admittedly. “Fascism w/ a Human Face” is still fascism (corporate rule). The torture, illegal wiretapping, corruption, lies and wholesale destruction of our economy continue because they benefit the political elite that practice them.
We’re headed for 3rd world status. The ReThugs are well on the road to being the next Whig party. The Dinos are not far behind them.
Jo Fish @ 17
Wicked funny and yet somehow enticing. I like it.
low-tech cyclist @ 100
Sounds great. I also want telcoms to testify to EVERYTHING Bush & Co have been asking them to do, so we’ll have a more full picture of how to go after Bush & Cheney.