It seems more and more to me that progressives almost constitute a “party within a party,” one whose agendas are largely shared by the majority of the country but who find themselves in opposition to the Democratic establishment and entrenched incumbents who use a variety of excuses to resist voting in the public interest.
It has become apparent that one of the only ways to force change is to take the seats currently held by BushDogs. That’s why it’s heartening to hear that MoveOn is polling its members regarding heavily funding primary challenges.
I was on a panel last night with Gay Talese on Jane Jacobs and the Future of New York. Talese at one point said that opposition was alive and well in his generation, in the sixties, when people weren’t afraid to demonstrate and get arrested for what they believed in but that’s dead now, it doesn’t exist. I objected and said that opposition was very much alive online, where people are actively and aggressively organizing to oppose this administration and just because we weren’t getting arrested didn’t mean we weren’t passionate and committed. I said I spent all day trying to figure out ways to get the progressive votes to get us out of the war and enact responsible legislation on a variety of issues that just isn’t possible right now.
He said, “Name one hero. Just one.”
A woman in the audience raised her hand and said “Eli Pariser.”
Then everybody clapped.
MoveOn is an incredibly valuable asset on the progressive side and it’s no surprise that entrenched Democrats who see them as a threat took an opportunity to take a swipe at them. Yet everywhere I see Petraeus written about these days there is a note of skepticism, often from the same people who were quick to scoff at the “General Betrayus” ad as ill-advised.
The meme traveled, usually on the lips of angry Republicans, but it traveled and it resonated with a public who don’t like Bush and don’t like the war.
MoveOn stuck their necks out. And I believe it worked. People talk about it as if it was a “distraction.” From what? From ending the war? As if. I hope they continue to find meaningful ways to combat the horrible trajectory this country seems to be on by continuing to fight for progressive values.
Related posts:
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- The Calls Worked: Rahm Backs Off Triggers at House Democratic Caucus Meeting
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Jane!
Lordy!
Yes. More primaries. Who wants to challenge Rahm? C’mon.
hi jane!
I come here for free speech and rule of law groupies!
Run errands….Make dinner…put kids to sleep…quick drive by and see Rep. Tom Allen is still answering questions in the previous thread! Fantastic!
Jane’s on the radio right now. With Dodd.
http://www.airamerica.com/listen/
Jane up on Air America with Chris Dodd and Congressman Tim Ryan
All those bright shiny objects.
she sparkles
Hi Jane, many thanks for everything.
Elliott @ 9
but not in a bright-shiny-object kind of way!!
I’m usually not this early. What a strange day this is.
Are the Dems planning on challenging Mel Martinez for the senate seat in Florida?
Oh excuse me, Mr. Talese! In addition to the online demonstrations, there HAVE been plenty of real live demonstrations with riot police and horses and counter demonstrators. WTF is the media? You have to go outside once ina while GT. (rolling my eyes)
way to go Jane!
dakine01 @ 7
Yay Jane! Thanks so much for joining Senator Dodd on Air America tonight!
{{{Jane!}}} Wish I could hear the broadcast!
(still on the road, poaching on a friend’s dial-up computer)
Jane on Air America “When the punditocracy says something is true, you can be pretty much sure they’re wrong.” (In response to question from Chris Dodd on whether the D President nomination is a “foregone conclusion.”)
Senator Dodd sounds very good.
If anyone has a doubt about this administration, consider Chimpy coming out of his cocoon to shill for the subset of telecoms that figured the admin would cover their criminality.
The good part is that the complement of that subset is well motivated to keep this thing alive and will not let this desired modification go through.
This is most assuredly a struggle for what the Democratic Party stands for. I abhor the so called centrist-DLC Demos. What happens in the next 12 months will determine what it means to be a Democrat for many years to come.
Yeah! Rule of Law!!!
THIS JUST IN: I HAVE BEEN BANNED BY JOHN ARAVOSIS FROM POSTING AT AMERICABLOG !
Is this what those of us who depart from the Party Line as handed down by Barney Frank can expect in the future?
listening to jane and sen dodd on the radio…dodd is gaining strength
Eureka Springs @ 17
I’ve been moving closer and closer to him as the days have passed. He’s walking the walk.
Jane, demonstrations are occurring. Right now they’re driving Pelosi nuts at her house, as an example. And she has nothing but scorn for them and their cause.
I put a diary on dkos on this earlier…
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/10/10/143230/71
The problem is there is no counter-balancing force to the Clinton dominated DLC.
CTuttle @ 20
Hi CT! [knuckle bash]
there’ve been many demos but of course the mealy mouth stream media ignores them
dakine01 @ 23
He’s a great interviewer, he could have his own talk show, if he weren’t in the Senate standing up for our Constitution.
“It seems more and more to me that progressives almost constitute a “party within a party,” “
Bullseye, as per usual.
OT, there would be demonstrations in the streets if the “tough on terra” Rethugs had a draft. Blackwater is a direct result of the shortage of soldiers. Vichy Dems failure to hammer these grand canyon like contradictions are all too typical.
David Ehrenstein @ 21
Details?
David Ehrenstein @ 21
Jeepers Wally! I don’t understand. Tell us more.
Clinton and the DLC is hijacking the Democratic Party. They are attempting to lock us out.
I was in Europe during the whole bruhaha, and did not hear about it. Right when I got home, Congress was just passing the resolutions denouncing the ad. I was so pissed at Pelosi and Reid for even allowing resolution to come up for a vote, that I immediately joined MoveOn.
Now if I hear any shit about the “Democrats beholden to MoveOn.Org” I can claim to be a card-carrying, dues-paying member.
David, if it helps I’m on the fecal roster at the House of Orange…..
Boo Radley @ 29
OT, Sorry Firedogs, but I have to reiterate that Blackwater is a cult. It’s CEO is a member of the DeVos/Amway cult, and this quote from the NYT could be equally applied to Amway:
_Whether Blackwater’s secretive corporate culture, reputed to have encouraged a “cowboy-like mentality,” has led to its employees being more likely to violate or stretch the existing rules…
Back to regular scheduled program. Nice post, Jane.
methinks its time to form a progressive party and run our own candidates…. the dems are too entrenched in the dc beltway and the dlc has such a hold on them that they cant seem to function other than as repug like – its disgusting and i’m tired of it
dakine01 @ 23
Me too. Class act, very competent.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 32
Ding!
dov12348 @ 24
sweet!
dannyM @ 33
Really great fundraiser for MoveOn compliments of US Congress!
solai @ 30
He always bans. Didn’t he ban everyone who contradicted him during the Cynthia McKinney affair?
I read him like the telephone directory in my most recent FaBlog post.
Apparently Miss Thing can’t cope.
(((((JANE))))
Bless your heart, girl. I always KNEW you are really a grass roots urban planner! Good on you for reviving Jane Jacobs!
do-si-do @ 26
Do-si-do, Dood!!! ;-)
Auto Mechanic today…! Jane and Chris are rocking now…!!!
why david – i’m shocked shocked that you’ve been banned from AB!! did you dare put forth an opposing opinion or what?
Jane–
this is as good a time as any to thank you. My immediate reaction when I heard about the Moveon ad was to suck in my breath and say, “Please please please let this not be what they actually did.”
But between you and Digby, within a few hours my thinking was turned around. I even felt energized enough to make a Sen. McConnell staffer’s head spin a few days later. And you’re exactly right–the long term effect of the ad has been worth every bit of negativity about it.
It reminds me of a quote from Josh Marshall about how Dems cowered before GOP attacks leading up to the ‘06 elections:
We’d do well to remember this, and you have been tireless in reminding us. So thanks.
Unfortunately I can’t listen in (pooh!).
Oh Get Tough–GOP is a cult too. They all need to get deprogrammed, now.
As a wise man around here likes to say:
ATTACK! AATTAACCKKKK! AAAATTTTAAACCCKKK!!!!!
MoveOn is the embodiment of this philosophy, as is FDL in many ways.
Beyond donating money, writing Congresspeople, contacting media, and so on, I think one of the most important things we all should be doing is getting people in our lives to stop consuming “news” produced by the Conglomerate Media. The extremely slanted bias inherent in their messaging is what makes our uphill battles so much steeper, and why we have to spend so much money and energy only to seem like there’s hardly any change.
Please do something everyday to get someone to check out places like FDL. If we can diminish the ratings of completely worthless shows like Meet the Russert and Softballs, and increase numbers at FDL and the like, all our other activities will be dramatically more effective.
{{{{{{{{jane & sen dodd}}}}}}}}
holding it down on air america ;-)
Heh! Dodd announcing the two tickets thingie for the Red sox game 6!
The Democrats clearly aren’t concerned with what their constituents want. Both parties are (and have been for some time) beholden to the very same deep-pocketed interests. No big donors, no election victories. No help from the corpomegamedia complex, no chance at “appearing” legitimate.
We are a Reichstag fire away from open military dictatorship. I am not encouraged by the utter failure of the Democrats to reign in this administration and end the warmaking/mongering/profiteering. They are of a piece and too much damage has been done.
Can we be redeemed as a nation?
dakine may have a date!
dakine01 @ 50
Jane, talking about her Date!!! ;-)
Jane,
I, too, believe there are many of us Progressives ready to fight to restore the Democracy so gravely damaged by the Bush Administration. Naomi Wolf was on the Colbert Show recently and near the end of Steven’s interview with her he suggested that he bring her back in a year to see if her predictions came true. What Naomi said scared me to death: “We may not have that much time.” She said it with such despair it brought tears to my eyes. What else can I do besides call Congressmen and Senators each day about one issue or another? What else can I do besides having “Support Our Troops, End The War” signs in my front yard? What else can I do besides writing a letter to my local newspaper? I don’t know what else I can do, yet much more needs done.
nonononoooooo sen dodd – the economy is BOOMING!!! yeah sure it isssssss
And Jane said she’d promised to be someone’s date and might be there as well!!!! {{{{{JANE!!!!!}}}}}
dakine01 @ 50
that just’s gonna make it harder for you to take Jane to the game! More people will enter.
Dodd was the first guy I gave money to this year. Quiet, not real flashy, but solid – rock solid for years. A man to trust. By no means is the “Clinton” nomination secure. Don’t the Repubs wish!
BTW and OT: here’s what our MSM isn’t covering:
http://nuralcubicle.blogspot.com/
David Ehrenstein @ 42
Umm, my mom had ERA medallions. So I remember.
Hey, dakine, Jane announced on air that she will be someone’s date (if he wins)!!!
Nancy needs to learn her some Bay Area activist psychology – she let ‘em know it was hurting (smart sympathy move) and then she
clutch my pearls
put on the “mean face” first!
Ding – Game over.
Nancy could have grabbed the liberation high ground “our neighbors are so burdened – I love the demonstrators’ rights, but this is hurting other people…” – followed by arranging for milk and cookies every night (organic – with soy as an option, natch).
And angelic carolers softly humming….
Instead, she let ‘em know it was bugging ‘em and she dissed ‘em.
Pffft! Amateur!
She’s gonna have protesters ’til Impeachment Day.
dov12348 @ 24
Hey yo!
If you pups haven’t lit a candle for peace in Tom Allen’s virtual rally you have 48 hours to do so.
if you already did this, check out the candle count now. kinda cool.
Light a Candle
Elliott @ 57
Well, I don’t hold my breath on these things anyway.
But it would be some serious fun to think about.
Jane is being auctioned by Chris Dodd?
We came in late to the Air America thing. We like Dodd.
I’d also like to add that I’m completely in favor of fielding candidates to challenge incumbent Democrats who are complicit in weakening our Constitutional protections. Lipinski Jr. (Chicago)is a particular one I have in mind.
do-si-do @ 62
I lit one, but I think I hit long Island. Story of my life.
Yeah, even the hippies were better in the good old days.
Anyway, General Betrayus is a dirty fucking liar. You don’t become immune to being a dirty fucking liar just because you wear a uniform.
Kathryn in MA @ 60
Or…She…!!! Whichever, FirePup that wins…!!! ;-)
Kathryn in MA @ 60
;})
David Ehrenstein @ 21
Badge of honor, dude.
Can’t wait for my own! Of course, I’d have to spend time over there to get banned — getting my comments deleted during the Cynthia McKinney flap was enough to put me off Aravosis. Now that he’s thrown transgenders off the bus, by wondering when “the T” got added to the LGB movement (hello, Mattachine, Daughter of Bilitis, Compton’s, Stonewall — have you heard of them, John??) I’m done with him.
But I might head back to Amblog to protest your being banned, just to get my badge!
kirk murphy @ 61
Meanwhile, if the protesters are smart, they’ll be the ones with the milk and cookies, bringing them to the neighbors. “Sorry to inconvenience you, but we’re just trying to get a couple words with our elected representative . . .”
David Ehrenstein @ 21
Forgive if you’ve already answered this, but what did you say to get banned? You’re the third pup I’ve read about this week who has been banned.
Attention All Americans,
Please affix your flag pin onto your lapels and make your way to the nearest Halliburton Relocation Facility.
-Dept. of Homeland Insecurity
Every political party has many parties within it. In Europe- most countries have at least a dozen parties- here all those different views are squished under two roofs.. It’s normal that there will be tension between the various groups. We are seeing just how fragmented the goopers are- the moderates are dying but a few still around- the christian right is struggling to maintain a stangle hold on at least THEIR issues- the libertarians are pissed off at most everyone else- the “pragmatists are fighting the “ideologues”..
It’s all a normal part of the political process in this country..
Should watch “life of Brian” again- always enjoy watching how the like minded groups fragment at the drop of a hat- what was it- “the sandal” crowd and the “something else” crowd?
You got it, muni!
Why do these Fucking Morons imagine that gay employment rights can be passed in any form when eual rights for women went down to defeat less than a generation ago?
Something we find disturbing is that most Republicans, especially the idiot in the WH, along with not a few Democrats, tell us that the economy is roaring along. This is simply not true.
Peterr @ 72
That’s just the nicest idea!
I hope people pick up on it.
We are winning in Iraq, the economy is great and George W. Bush reads 60 books a year.
-GSD
Merci Teddy in SanFran!
HERE!
It’s been pretty clear that the powers that be of the MSM and in the halls of our capitol have been looking for ANY excuse to discredit and delegitimize the progressive blogosphere. The Betrayus flap is pure fu*kery and they see it as an opportunity to bury the pesky bloggers once and for all. They hate the internet, it’s too damn democratic for their authoritarian impulses.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 25
It just might have to be MoveOn.org … I am okay with that.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 32
“is” and “are”??
They completed that around 1992. The other night here I mentioned my experience as a campus campaign manager for Jerry Brown in the primaries back then. The Ron Brown-led DNC was actively trying to silence us and shut us down months before Iowa. We were all like WTF?!? What’s wrong with letting the Dem voters decide for themselves!?!! It became obvious we were fighting against a faction of the Dem Party that had been grooming their first “project” ever since he blew his horn on Johnny Carson in 1988.
It only got worse, and absolutely dire until thankfully the Netroots developed. We must end this same old song and dance once and for all. In other words…no Hillary!
GSD @ 79
60 books a year, my arse…!!! ;-)
If you are a progressive, how do you justify supporting the person with the most influence within the DLC as the candidate most suited to be the next president of the United States? And please… don’t throw ‘electability’ my way.
Bout the only thing a person can do to stop Hillary is to pick one of the other candidates with a chance and rally behind em with everything ya have..
David Ehrenstein @ 42
Thanks, David. TSF had an FDL column about this, a while back. Hope you read, or will read. It was a pretty amazing thread.
The idea of shutting out transgendered people is repellant.
rwcole @ 86
Edwards…!!!
We need what we’ve always needed — a second political party.
rwcole @ 75,
A very good point. I believe the almighty buck trumps all for most of today’s “politicians” though.
David–Yeah- how bout the greens?
CTuttle @ 84
I never believed for a minute that he sat around reading any of those 60 books. BUT I do think it’s actually possible he listens to books-on-tape while he peddles his bike.
Guess it’s about money and votes- but for politicians the two are interchangable.
David Ehrenstein @ 76
I guess Aravosis thinks he’s a moderate? Ridiculous I know. When a few years back HoJoe was considered “moderate.”
Oklahoma kiddo @ 85
Al From can kiss my hairy butt!! The DLC has led the Democratic Party over the cliff, and we need to take it back.
rwcole @ 91
They’ve been collared.
Teddy- I tried to find a link to that FDL post of yours for David to read, but couldn’t find it.
I’m sure you remember the discussion. Throwing out the Ts (bad on so many levels). Do you have a link please?
David Ehrenstein @ 89
that’s right to the point.
Bush undoubtedly reads MORE than he and Rove tried to convince the non-cognicenti of years ago- and much less than they are tryin to convince us of now….
EVERYTHING about Bush is politics.
I did read it, Valley Girl, and it was great.
The trans community is really juiced by all of this. They’ve found out who their friends really are.
I don’t understand transgenderism but I respect people — especially once I know that we share the same set of enemies
Patient Less Than Zero has been workign for years to destroy the gay rights movement — and he’s betting on this as his best shot.
As always, he’s wrong.
Bonkers @ 48:
Beyond donating money, writing Congresspeople, contacting media, and so on, I think one of the most important things we all should be doing is getting people in our lives to stop consuming “news” produced by the Conglomerate Media. The extremely slanted bias inherent in their messaging is what makes our uphill battles so much steeper, and why we have to spend so much money and energy only to seem like there’s hardly any change.
Please do something everyday to get someone to check out places like FDL. If we can diminish the ratings of completely worthless shows like Meet the Russert and Softballs, and increase numbers at FDL and the like, all our other activities will be dramatically more effective.
I agree with this completely. People are brainwashed by what they hear/see on the teevee. I recently managed to convince my husband to STOP watching CNN. It took a few months, but he is mush more informed without that blather. Even he says so!
After watching Nader and the greens struggle for years, I’m not much interested in helping to give birth to a new political party- and watch it get 3% of the vote.
He started out as a right-wing Republican so you might say he’s true to his roots.
Oops! “much more informed!”
(not mush more…) ;>)
I don’t think corporate America will have a hard time living with President Hillary Clinton. Do you?
David Ehrenstein @ 100
David, thanks. I’m glad you read the thread. I was just appalled and heartsick by the idea that Ts are lesser.
GSD @ 74
UNLESS YOU HAPPEN TO BE A REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE IN THE 10/09 DEBATE. ONLY NEED TO BE SCARDEY IF YOU ARE BARACK OBAMA.
Gay Talese says that…
what bullshit… how about the almost 2000 who got arrested for protesting at the 2004 RNC? and those weren’t in for a few hours and out again arrests – those where 24 – 48 hours (and more) spent in a filthy and dangerous warehouse. or the people who get arrested every year protesting usa involvement in latin american torture and oppression at school of the americas? scott did the protest a couple of years ago – and got 4 months in georgia state prison. or the people who get beaten and arrested at the global justice protests of the imf/wto/corporate trade deals?
ok, back to read the comments now… but that bit just royally pissed me off and i had to write something immediately..
David Ehrenstein @ 100
Well what I can’t stand, is those who “compromise” are considered “moderates” or “realistic” when really they are caving into the right wing and being cruel to those who are exlcuded, and often it all ends up shelved anyway. Like the ERA medallions. G*d I wish my mom gave those to me. What a collectors item.
dov12348 @ 24
I said there were plenty of demonstrations, they just weren’t getting media coverage. He said he didn’t like the internet, didn’t use it, didn’t even have an email. I said that’s probably why he didn’t know who Eli Pariser was. He got a bit cranky at that one.
David Ehrenstein @ 103
A Log Cabin Repug…???
I guess there’s somethin about people marchin around yer house day and night shoutin and wavin signs sayin what a fuck head you are- that tends to turn some people off.
GSD @ 79
During the repub debate last night Freddie said that we’re not owning up to the fact that we’re borrowing from our children and those not yet born. There was a moment of truth….but then things got back to normal. His statement was ignored and mitt and crew all agreed that the economy is booming.
But, he did say that…I heard him.
No offense New York. But I’d like to keep Hillary in NY. Not because she’s too liberal. But because she is not nearly progressive enough.
rwcole @ 102
But think budding yeast
The only way we’re gonna get MORE and BETTER Democrats is through the primary process. We can’t expect the next Democratic president to appoint Rahm & Steny & the other BushDogs to ambassadorships. Primaries are a healthy party’s way to test ideas, ensure representation, and challenge entrenched incumbents in safe districts.
More primaries!
Jane Hamsher @ 110
Keep’em Honest, Jane!!! ;-)
CTuttle @ 111
Staff attorney to Senator Ted Stevens, actually, and for five years.
Jane Hamsher @ 110
Maybe he should ask his cousin to show him how it works. :})
edit: Dog I’m being an id10t today. That’s Gay Talese you were on with. Dunno why Gore Vidal was in my brain.
The Pet Goat is on tape?
-GSD
TeddySanFran @ 118
Gotta wipe up the coffee on my keyboard. Back in a minute . . .
rwcole @ 112
Um, that made me laugh out loud.
selise @ 108
what bullshit… how about the almost 2000 who got arrested for protesting at the 2004 RNC? and those weren’t in for a few hours and out again arrests – those where 24 – 48 hours (and more) spent in a filthy and dangerous warehouse. or the people who get arrested every year protesting usa involvement in latin american torture and oppression at school of the americas? scott did the protest a couple of years ago – and got 4 months in georgia state prison. or the people who get beaten and arrested at the global justice protests of the imf/wto/corporate trade deals?
ok, back to read the comments now… but that bit just royally pissed me off and i had to write something immediately..
Dude’s a wimpy concern troll if you ask me. I was born in ‘65 so I am sure the last time I got arrested with over 30 thousand anti war protesters it was not Viet Nam hippies I was jailed with. (Though everyone was welcome)
Hi Jane- How’s it goin?
ok, I found the link to Teddy’s post.
http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..-up-later/
It really was an amazing discussion, and I urge any of you who care to go and read.
Valley Girl @ 97
here ya go
I take issue with Gay Talese. This child of the 60s – now aged – may not be in the streets, but I’m sending money to MoveOn and cheering them forward. I expect there are others like me doing so, too. We may be gray-heads Mr. Talese, but we ain’t dead yet.
TeddySanFran @ 118
Doesn’t Teddy need all the attorneys he can get a hold of about now…?!!!
GSD @ 120
707!!!
One thing that has me scratching my head is the virtual disappearance of Howard Dean. His voice was the one I trusted most on the political landscape and he’s on the back of a milk carton. Why haven’t we heard more from the courageous Dr. Dean? Have the Dems muzzled him? He gave me real hope.
Jane Hamsher @ 122
Any photos anywhere?
Primary season is a good time for the head of a political party to go on a long vacation. He/she can’t say shit without pissin someone off.
Jane Hamsher @ 110
These dinosaurs who say nothing’s happening (and, by the way, they hate the internet) are the least informed among us. Why would anyone give a person of this caliber a public forum?
What’s most enraging about Aravosis is the way he claims to support transgenders yet doesn’t have clue about male-to-female surgical procedures. He actually thinks he p*nis is cut off, rather than reconfigured.
dwwenz @ 101
That’s fantastic! That’s the only way we’re going to make this thing we got going sustainable over the long-term.
Seems to me (no close study to back this up) that the netroots exploded onto the scene over a five year period. Within a year or two of existence, places like FDL here shot up to 40, 50, 60 thousand hits per day. Outside of the Skater Libby trial, I haven’t seen anywhere near the growth of the first two years. I’ve noticed this across the whole Liberal blogosphere for the most part.
Each one of us has to get more and more people coming here. I really want to see a headline someday like, “Chris Matthews Out. New Hamsher In.” We can do this if we try hard enough!
Oh and, obviously, I wasn’t too senile to learn to manage the internet. You might try to learn it now Mr. Talese, before your brain becomes so ossified that you can’t.
To the man from Tennessee. Your country beckons.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PX5t9VJweQ
lahoma
mk @ 127
That’s right and at the risk of sounding like a squeaky wheel, and since Selise is here I bring up our WWII Vets who phonebanked and tapped on doors during the Lamont campaign with more vigour than some of us “kids.”
Solai, I am sure Freddie said it by accident then promptly forgot what he said.
Talk about a wet fart….Freddie is flop.
-GSD
Jay @ 130
I would think he’s working on his 50 state strategy, which is a great thing to take back our country at all levels and provide a mechanism for progessives to rise through the party.
David Ehrenstein @ 21
I hate to sound like a broken record, but this is what I’ve been talking about for some time now. It disturbs me when we on the left fight each other like this. We really need to work together. And I agree with all David says. It’s a shame when AmBlog feels they have to ban him. I guess I just don’t like the confrontation, the ill feelings.
I don’t think I have to say this here, but I feel compelled to do so. Please don’t attack me, please don’t start accusing me of being something I’m not. We need to work together on so many things in order to improve this world we all live in. Maybe the phrase “respectfully disagree” is no longer with us. Maybe the shouting matches we’re witness to daily on the MSM has pulled our discourse into the gutter. I’d like to think that’s not so. I’d like to think we can “respectfully disagree” on some things and still work together for a better world.
Again, this is still the best place for a good discussion on these things, because that’s the one thing I find at the lake that I don’t find at other blogs. A healthy respect for all the differences of opinion that are out there.
Jane,
I was at last night’s Jane Jacobs forum – you were great! I wish it had been longer.
I think the difference between now and the ’60s is that now, people are afraid. In the ’60s, if you demonstrated and went to jail, it was for disorderly conduct. Now, people are so afraid, because we know the government is able to track us, listen to our telephone conversations, read our email, and, well, there’s that whole secret prisons thing. We live now in a culture of fear, and, sorry to say, but the press isn’t doing its job as the skeptic watchdog it is supposed to be.
I quoted you from last night’s forum in my blog today. Again, thanks for being there, sharing your thoughts, and for sticking your neck out.
Peterr @ 72
yes, peterr!
I hope Code Pink in SF see your wise suggestion…
Jay @ 130
Yeah — where *is* he? I get infrequent e-mails from him.
Jay @ 130
I think he took to heart the fact that as DNC chair, he had to be concerned with the total party which he has been in the fifty state strategy. But getting down into the weeds in some of the deep red states and trying to make them purple is not a glamor exercise that the punditocracy will pay attention to
Teddy- SNAP!!! ;)
rwcole @ 112
Code Pink has been trying to get a meeting with their Congresswoman since she became Speaker, to no avail. They are mostly grandmothers themselves, and none of them have called her a fuck head.
Unless you’ve seen the demonstrators and their demonstration outside her home, you really shouldn’t characterize it. They are aggrieved citizens without access to their lawful representative.
And they are very well behaved, although passionate.
Jay @ 130
Talking about the missing, I keep wondering where Murray Waas is. They did that hit piece on him a few months back and I haven’t noticed anything written by him since. Has anyone else seen his writings?
Each one of us has to get more and more people coming here. I really want to see a headline someday like, “Chris Matthews Out. New Hamsher In.” We can do this if we try hard enough!
Amen, bonkers!
Jane Hamsher @ 110
excellent! if he doesn’t use the internet or listen to democracy now!, that probably explains why he thinks there aren’t any protests.
GSD @ 120
Is it read by Bush?
Millineryman @ 138
that’s what I’m thinking,
and that he sees no value to being in the limelight where (to mix-up some metaphors) he’s a lightning rod for controversy.
Elliott @ 39
Bravo to you for posting this. Folks can check out an alternate version of the same report at Nancy’s SF home newspaper: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/…..;hw=Pelosi candid talk&sn=001&sc=1000
She really is despicable, with nothing but contempt for the antiwar party base, and nothing but sympathy for her comrade in arms Commander Codpiece.
Progressive Blogosphere: why do you support any Dinos except the half-dozen who have not been neutered (Pete Stark, Barb. Lee, Feingold, Kucinich, a few others) or “wellstoned”?
A hero I can think of today is Cindy Sheehan. As I live about 35 miles from Pelosi’s district Cindy’s likely to get my support ($ and shoe leather) this summer. Pelosi and the rest of the “surrendercrats” can go to Hell!
Teddy
Not even trampling the flower beds? What the hell kinda demonstration is THAT?
ADM @ 140
Well said, ADM! Mahalo Nui Loa!!!
Uh, JANE HAMSHER!!
Hello?!
rwcole @ 86
And I am afraid it is not Dodd – who I think would make the best president of the lot.
So Pelosi is a pro-war military industrialist in the same camp as Bush? Wow- learn somethin every day!
rwcole @ 153
True Flower Power…??? 8-)
Fern
I like Dodd too- but no- probably not Dodd.
Eureka Springs @ 123
Bless you both. I expect Talese belives what he says – but so do my cognitively impaired elder patients who think their voices really are talking about them.
Hope you got the poor man a nice cup of warm milk before you left, Jane.
TRex @ 155
Yes!
Eureka Springs @ 123
when did 30,000 get arrested?!!?
TeddySanFran @ 146
I must be getting bleary-eyed. Isn’t MM (with her 101st Fighting Keyboarders) in strike position toward Code Pink. I’d rather get their backs than not.
Knowing Dean is still out there fighting for the truth and against the fascists will make me sleep better tonight. If he’s “in the weeds”, down South or changing the hue in the “heartland”, all the better.
selise @ 149
Mr. Talese is on our side isn’t he? I read Thy Neigbor’s Wife about 25 years ago. It seems that a guy who could write that book would be a liberal. I enjoyed that book.
Jane Hamsher @ 110
Heh. Maybe his computer is too old. Has to use a pedal or something to get it going.
Anyway, yeah, I hope before too long they grow to the 1968-size demonstrations. I’m getting REALLY impatient. New facial tics and everything.
When I read his comment, I thought “If you see a gap, arse yourself to get up and organize something instead of leaving it to others. Action Man’s a much better look than has-been writer sneering from a mediocre height…”
selise @ 162
Selise, I’m sure ES mispoke. ;)
Shorter Gay Talese: “Spput…sputter…wheeeze…huh?…Right on! Who’s bogarting that doobie?…spput…sputter…zzzzz”
Rip Van Winkle visits every generation…and usually sleeps right through it.
davidinmanhattan @ 141
You ask some good questions at your place.
hackworth @ 166
There are people who will say the same thing for 25 years. That’s just a possibility.
solai @ 131
here
and here
We cannot occupy Iraq indefinitely: We need an exit plan. (Feb 2005)
Voted YES on redeploying US troops out of Iraq starting in 90 days. (May 2007)
Voted NO on declaring Iraq part of War on Terror with no exit date. (Jun 2006)
Voted NO on approving removal of Saddam & valiant service of US troops. (Mar 2004)
Voted NO on authorizing military force in Iraq. (Oct 2002)
Voted NO on disallowing the invasion of Kosovo. (May 1999)
Condemns anti-Muslim bigotry in name of anti-terrorism. (Oct 2001)
Wage war on Terrorism, not on fellow Americans. (Sep 2001)
mui @ 137
yep, Marshall is my hero!
Oops- that’s Pelosi’s voting record on Clusterfuck’s war.
selise @ 163
San Francisco the first night of the War in Iraq some seventeen plus years ago.
rwcole @ 175
those votes are okay. her “leadership” is not.
TeddySanFran @ 173
Freaking fabulous. I love them.
Valley
What do you think she should do?
selise @ 175
And who knows there may be a Marshall in TSFs Code Pink pictures, although I wasn’t looking.
TeddySanFran @ 133
Hey, ignorant people have rights. too.
as a matter of fact they’re (most) all ‘right…
rwcole @ 153
From what I’ve seen, the US marshals and Secret Service guard the petunias quite carefully.
Hannibal Lector would say “love the pink pantsuit.”
kirk murphy @ 160
ha! and iirc, our own dear kirk was one of those arrested at the RNC.
Teddy
Aren’t those the PIGS– yer sposed ta SPIT at the PIGS!
Jay @ 130
This one really gets me. Dean has indeed disappeared, apparently out of party loyalty and in deference to the presidential candidates.
So what happens? Those (now self-proclaimed) Democratic “leaders” in Congress who won’t confront an outlaw Executive Branch for love or money, have gotten together behind closed doors to take out Dean’s DNC presidential primary rules. The guy doing his utmost for the nation (Dean) is treated like scum, the guy destroying the nation (Bush) is treated like royalty by the establishment Democrats in Congress.
Florida’s Senator Bill Nelson is enthusiastically helping the FL Democratic Party to sue the DNC for enforcing its own party-passed rules and even (Clinton-supporter) Debbie Wasserman-Schultz is on board for the ride, after FL knowingly violated those rules and received the required censure in return. [The FL Democratic Party has been scheming about this for more than a year with the FL Republican Party - but Nancy Pelosi wants to pretend it’s all the fault of the Republicans, in a familiar refrain.]
Meanwhile, Senator Carl Levin – who failed to get Michigan the early primary date he wanted for it, by participating in the Terry McAuliffe-established DNC committee that designed next year’s primary dates, decided just to go ahead and do it anyway. So he got Michigan’s party and state government to move its primary date up, also in contravention of the rules of the national Democratic Party, and of the committee that it established to set those rules on which he served. All’s fair in war and politics?
And Pelosi just blew off the controversy in Florida as a non-issue, which will be resolved by the eventual presidential nominee.
These people are basically sabotaging their own political party, apparently in part out of spite for Howard Dean and all those “little people” he deigns to listen to. They seem to think that the only Democratic Party that matters is the one they control through the DCCC and the DSCC and their individual PACs – a message regularly conveyed by them to Dean whenever he does cross paths with them (cue Rahm Emanuel last year, cue James Carville, etc. — Pelosi’s helpful “enforcers,” who allow her to keep her ladylike, ‘prayerful’ hands clean).
dwwenz @ 144
Well, seems like he’s been working on that 50 State Strategy thing. Interview available here (I haven’t had a chance to listen to the interview myself yet, so I don’t know what he discusses.)
TeddySanFran @ 183
Petunias are a pretty hardy flower. They can take it.
Good night. Lahoma wants to play a quick game of chess before calling it a day. Believe me… it’ll be quick. I will, as usual, lose.
Valley Girl @ 177
rwcole has been quite correct in his prediction that the democrats would be on cruise control till the end of shrub’s term.
It is and they are disappointing.
dwwenz @ 149
Tell your hubby we’re happy to have him around, and we’d love to hear from if he feels the need to chime in.
hackworth @ 166
Yes he is. His politics are actually really good. He was very indignant about this administration and journalists like Judy Miller who have just completely fucked up. He’s just a bit of a luddite, which is fine, but doesn’t trust online culture at all. Which leaves a few holes in his knowledge of modern liberal opposition, but that’s okay. It was pretty cool to meet him, even if he couldn’t stand me.
Pelosi’s voted on the right side more often than not. That and a $1.65 will get you a cop of coffee. They need to crank up the truth and openly “hate” this war (as we all do) and the crimes of the administration if they want to lead and move the people out of this nightmare.
Pelosi and Reid have tried, but they’ve accomplished very little. It’s time to force change by any and all means at their disposal.
Eureka Springs @ 176
wow!
solai @ 147
Good question. We need everyone we’ve got.
G’night OK-Lahoma.
-GSD
mui @ 163
Malkkkin and Melanoma MoreGain are after CodePink for trying to shut down the Armed Forces Recruiting Center in Berkeley. According to their calendar, CodePink had an action there today, but I’ve not seen anything on the local news about it yet. This is the event spocko mentioned last night, rightly worried that eventually the flying monkeys will actually kill someone.
Jay @ 130
I would think the reason is very simple. He is now head of the Party, and not a candidate. So he has to remain neutral as far as any particular Dem goes, and not (overtly, anyway) make policy for the Party, except re operational issues. Actually, it makes sense, if you believe in the Dem Party as an organization (he would be more like a manager than a director).
rw, this is the Bay Area.
Public protest is an elaborate ritual with many social norms. We’re nice here (we say) so the first side to blow their cool in the protest loses and has to go home.
Also lots of the SF “protest detail” have been/will be doing this for years. SF’ers who frequently protest in “permitted demos” get to know ‘em by sight – and they us.
Spitting on them would be like spitting on Madge the waitress in the local diner.
Simply not done.
(Besides being very not nice, spitting on law enforcement may be a felony in some contexts).
selise @ 195
Don’t pull up your fainting couch to soon.. The SF Chamber of Commerce took out a full page NYT ad apologizing on behalf of the city for our behavior.
Jane Hamsher @ 192
Thanks, Jane. You are awesome!
rwcole @ 157
Some perspective is in order. Yes, the dems are not moving as quickly as we want them to, but we need to be careful…we don’t want to give ammunition to the right.
Jane Hamsher @ 192
Didja ask him what kinda name is Gay for a dude?
rwcole @ 179
Don’t know about what she “should” do. Because she already charted her course by taking impeachment off the table, and thus, she folded. I don’t play poker, but I don’t think there’s much coming back after you’ve folded your hand. I don’t play p*ker, but if I did, I would certainly have not said out right “I plan to fold” on this one. She should have just kept her mouth shut on that one. I see no gain in her having shown the other side her hand.
Edited * and released by MOD
Loo Hoo. @ 203
Careful, yes, but timid, no. Look at Jane’s great description of the effects of MoveOn, for ex.
Eureka Springs @ 200
my “wow” was for you! good job!
TeddySanFran @ 204
I figured I’d leave that for you, Teddy.
kirk murphy @ 199
Gathering of Weasles is outside these norms — that seemed to worry spocko a great deal.
Hillary to Republicans: Lay off Grame Frost
Kirk
I was at the University in 68. In our sheltered State University in the Northwest- we had to watch the pros at Berkley to see how it was done- which is where spitting at “The Pigs” (while yellin “PIG” was being practiced…Somehow it didn’t come off the same when practiced on our local constabulary of middle aged guys who just wanted to leave and eat donuts.
pow wow,
Thank you for that very detailed information. I recall the supposed leaders of the D party, in the wake of Dean’s ascendancy to the party chair position, openly throwing Dean under the bus. Biden, Clinton, even Edwards took shots at him on several successive issues, and it crystallized just who cold be trusted in my mind.
Let’s face it, Howard Dean delivers too much truth when he speaks and the “leadership” of the party will not have it.
I want Dean back out in the open.
kirk murphy @ 199
Maybe that’s why Critical Mass is the one protest event that gets people worked up. The folks in cars who blow their cool WANT to go home, but can’t, and neither can the bicyclists whose tires get bent in bike-on-vehicle confrontations.
Hmmmm . . . imagine Nancy’s reaction if Critical Mass showed up on her doorstep on a Friday evening.
pow wow @ 187
Nut, meet shell. That’s it right there. I first started thinking this in the 1990s as Clinton was giving Big Biz everything they wanted. Always. The other part of the game is to rally behind enough “liberal” causes, and vote for them in order to get the support of various groups and “centrist” voters. Remember how J. Low Lieberfucktwit was pointing to his 90% “liberal rating” when Lamont first took him on. J. Low eventually dropped that when it was clear the true Liberals wanted Lamont, but that’s one of their favorite tricks.
It was obivous through the 90s, and now it incredibly obviously, that the majority of our “Dem leaders,” names that have been around for years now, are PURPOSELY trying to undermine our Party from within. Does anyone doubt this anymore?
back to moveon…
when moveon put out that push-poll and then lobbied against the progressive dems in congress – i quit moveon, and made a complaint.
but when moveon did the betrayus ad and the poll on supporting primary challenges – i joined right up again.
So would I, but when Aravosis closes the whole show down there’s nothing to do.
Jane is right. There is a struggle going on for the soul of the Democratic party.
Normally what happens in presidential cycles is that a two-term president (as Clinton was) is deemed “successful” and, since s/he cannot get elected to another term, their brand becomes the Party formula for success. So, after two terms of Bill, the DLC (which Bill had taken over) became the party brand.
Except that under their leadership, we somehow lost the presidency in 2000, and again in 2004. They want us to think that those losses were “stolen,” because that justifies the meme that the DLC is the right way to go, if only we can keep those Dam* Republicans from stealing the next election. But if you argue that Gore and Kerry were dragged down each time by bad advice from the DLC, you realize that the DLC brand is a losing brand.
The Progressive brand was the dominant winner in 2006, but the DLC has been busy ever since trying to keep the public from realizing that. In 2006, Howard Dean became chair of the DNC, pushed the 50 state strategy that the DLC opposed, and won big (except the DLC tried to steal the credit.)
Let there be no doubt. There is a contest for the soul of the Democratic Party.
Bob in HI
Sympathy for Devil.
Pravda has better headlines than US papers.
-GSD
rwcole @ 209
hmm – I’m seeing some busy ER’s…. ;)
and Teddy – was spocko concerned the Fistula of Weasels would bug Code Pink?
Jeebus, that would make the Marshalls twitchy – not to mention Nancy’s neighbors….
GSD @ 217
Where’s the outrage?!
RBG @ 171
Thanks so much!
The Democratic Party has to be rebuilt from the ground up. Moveon and other groups can help with supporting progressives in the primaries. Unions can help with getting muscle on the street. It’s time to give the right wing nuts something to really fear. Beating these aholes to the curb should get the message across.
Peterr @ 213
Cynical Mess in Pacific Whites !
Eureka Springs @ 201
Sceeereeew the SF Chamber of Commerce.
bonkers @ 192
Thanks! I’ll let him know.
:)
I can name a Progressive Hero: Jane Hamsher.
Fred X. Quinby @ 226
I will certainly second that!
selise @ 215
Can you elaborate on this “push-poll” deal? Don’t what you’re talking about…
bonkers @212,
You are so right. All the rest is smoke and mirrors. Ughhh…
PeterK @ 205
I know. I’ve been a member of MoveOn for years, and am mighty proud of the Betrayus ad. Just don’t want us to give ammunition, as peace activists, we need to keep the peace, brothers and sisters! But you’re right, cave-NO.
kirk murphy @ 219
Spocko was concerned about the Berkeley Recruiting Center action today — Fistula was organizing to “protect the defaced Center” building from another taping of pink hearts on the windows and laying of pink flowers on the doormat.
King of Dinosaurs…upstairs.
(Again, I think I should get residuals. This post is one of the later on the theme of the self-marginalization by “progressives,” but it’s mercifully short – if you want me to find the longer ones I can. And not surprisingly, it’s still on topic and yes, omniscient)*
_________________________________________
* There really are comments earlier than this one that set for the idea of self marginalization by “progressives” in greater detail, and I have a big enough ego to go google them if even you don’t want me to. And Loo Hoo, don’t hate me b/c I’m omniscient, just go read my post on “method
actingblogging,” which I also take credit for inventing (but of course I do).bonkers @ 226
here’s a summary with links. but that’s all water under the bridge… i’m very happy with what moveon is doing now.
kirk murphy @ 219
I doubt in front of Nancy’s house. The flying monkeys arent that stupid? Michelle does know how to whip her thugs into a frenzy. I hope nothing happens to any Code Pink. Scary.
Of course, Eli Pariser is a hero. An insurgent hero for us insurgents.
But Jane — look at the picture. The insurgents are the ones attacting Minas Turith. You’re castin’ us all as, um, Orcs.
We is not Orcs.
Jane, thanks for reminding us that the party is still worth caring about. Its so true.
Lynne Cheney coming up on The Daily Show.
Late Nite’s up.
hey epu! great to “see” you… it’s been a long time.
The editing function is obviously not working well for me. Such is my burden, alas.
I could be making more appearances. I do still read most everything still.
I’m still surprised method blogging never caught on. No accounting for taste.
selise @ 234
Cool, thanks. Noticed Tom Mattzie came back and answered your question…somewhat. I really respect how well MoveOn interacts with their membership. A model for us all, along with FDL!
bonkers @ 246
well, he responded to my question – he didn’t really answer it.
but, sometimes allies have disagreements… and that’s ok (if you look earlier in that thread, you’ll see that i said all kinds of nice things (and i meant them too). saved the negative question for the end, so as not to risk derailing the conversation.
Evil Parallel Universe @ 244
At least you’re living up to your name and showing up after a new thread has begun upstairs.
I’m also living up to my omniscience.
two items:
1) the progressives ‘party within a party’ is the Lamont-lieberman battle writ large. the liebermans consisting of ALL of the current dem [cough] leadership, bushdogs, and asundry other “Villagers” have to go and be replaced with true progressives that believe in re-instituting American value.
2) General Betrayus is pulling the trigger on the Iran invasion – he’s the new Powell. the bush regime with no credibility needs a new “untouchable” to sell their invasion. Betrayus is their chosen sacrificial idiot overwhelmed by the spotlight just as Powell was. It is paramount that Betrayus be exposed for the regime stooge that he is before he completes his Powell-at-the-UN moment for the invasion of Iran.
.
at a party i saw Jane Jacobs listening through her ‘ear horn.’ low tech deluxe
also had the pleasure of eating her home made cookies -
let us however never forget the inspiration that steny hoyer provides for a number of sleeve and cuff designers nation-wide.
Evil Parallel Universe @ 249
Except you can’t make the edit function work.
What does my omniscience have to do with the edit function not working? (and I’ll spot you that is rhetorical). Silly mortals.
bobschacht @ 217
I agree completely. And, it will take a lot of money to breach that fortress.
Bob Shrum, ’nuff said?
Rahm “wrong” wrote about “The Thumpin’” as if he had much to do with it. We know the truth and if we keep working at it we can dominate the House even more (the Speakership isn’t enough).
I think we need “More and better Democrats” and we can work on likely winners to get Progressives in where it’s cheapest and we can primary DLC Dems when that’s got a chance and we can look to specific reps who have been funded in large part by Hoyer’s or Emanuel’s (or other DLC) PACs as a way of undermining their ability to get elected to senior leadership positions.
As we build our numbers in the House we can outvote the DLCers on anything and at minimum limit the damage done by triangulators working with Republicans in the Senate or WH.
House control gives spending control and authorization for war and impeachment control. It’s fundamental power. So, we need good House leaders we Progressives can expect will uphold those minimum things our Republic requires.
Taking on the Senate will/would take a lot more money since those critters are only up for election once every six years and they can accumulate a lot of cash in 6 years.
For the upcoming election I hope to avoid having a Republican (including Hillary) elected president and I’d like to see more Progressives go into the House. Those are doable.
Ideally Obama supporters will realize it isn’t going to happen for him and they will drift over to Edwards. That might give him enough support to take the race.
Jay @ 51
I’m rather late reading this, so may be EPU’d, but . .
I think the Dems are taking advantage of voters, thinking “the Repubs are SO horrible, no one would EVER vote for them, so we can move as far to the right as we want. Our voters won’t desert us for the Repub crap.”
I think a third party effort at this point would hand another election to the Republicans, but I think a good start towards changing the situation [and taking back the party] is NOT funding the Bush Dogs who are now “incumbents” thanks to our $$$, and challenging as many of them as feasible.
However, I think we should marshal our resources towards eliminating the REALLY horrible Senators like Cornyn as well.
David Ehrenstein@21; I don’t know what you posted over there, but unless you really went off your nut, with personal threats, and copious “motherfuckers”, etc., you should have had your say, and good on you for doing it.
Some of us are mixing it up over at The Group News Blog, over the issue of one of the staff members telling posters there to stop talking about the fact that we think Hillary Clinton simply can’t be elected.
(He’s caught some flack, from some of the regulars, as well as some support, and has since said that he wasn’t trying to shut off debate, but you won’t get that from his opening-thread post.:o) )
But he’s a good guy, and I think, just brainfarted there, which we all do, from time to time.
My point is, that we should all be prepared for some intramural friction. Push is coming to shove, where the events in Iraq will become totally unspinnable as anything but the humongous fuckup that it is.
When that happens, the zit will be popped, and what comes out, won’t be pretty.
And the “unity” that the Clintonistas are calling for, three months before the FIRST primary, for Christ’s sake, is going to, temporarily at least, take a diving header into an empty swimming pool.
I’m sorry, but I think that’s appropriate.
Especially, when the people currently starting to shreik it, are doing it on behalf of a candidate who doesn’t think, or at least, won’t state, that invading Iraq was a mistake!
That kind of “unity”, is what got us INTO this misery.
And for any progressive blog worthy of the name, to try to stifle honest, reasonable dissent, is nothing but bushism on their part.
As the candidate-eating reality chickens start flapping their way home, we need to keep in mind that a good, truth-based, debate; even one that isn’t “unified”, is part and parcel of what we’re doing, as we try to pull the country back from the brink of the corporate 4th Reich that bush and his war supporters (and I DEFINITELY include Hillary Clinton among them) have dragged us to.
Put on your hard hats, people…we’ve got a president to elect; it’s just that it needs to be a president who is clear on whether or not supporting the clusterfuck was, and is, a mistake.
The question about the moveon.org ad should not be whether or not it was a distraction but whether it was effective. I submit it failed to do what was necessary: persuade additional Congresspeople to support withdrawal of troops. What would have been an effective ad is one which listed questions the Senators and House members should have asked Petraeus. This could have included?
(1) What percentage of attacks are done by Al Qaeda in Iraq?
(2) Which militia groups are aligned with political parties in the Iraqi parliament?
(3) How many Americans have been killed by the Sunni Anbar sheiks we now are in bed with?
(4) Did anyone warn the President that if he met (and had a photo taken with) the Sunni sheik who was subsequently assasinated and if so, what was his response?
(5) What is the plan if the Sunni sheiks stab us in the back and use weapons we’ve given them against us?
(6) If the Iraqi parliament does not reconcile on key issues like oil distribution law what will the strategy be?
(7) What is the long-term strategy be beyond the next 6 months?
To many on the left, the desire to withdraw trumps the need for these considerations. I have been against the war since before it started. I believe the left must engage our opponents on these types of questions to expose the inananity of leaving our troops in a civil war with no end in sight. Merely to call the other side names and speak only of the need to withdraw without cogently exposing the flaws of the right-wing approach is not constructive. Moveon.org can be a very effective group because it is broad-based and grass roots. Unfortunately, the Petraeus ad provokes a response which limits, not enhances, its effectiveness in attaining its worthy objectives.
Moveon is one of the most effective Liberal groups in support of the Democratic party and yet they are treated like villians. The repigs and their smear machine have be successful in mainly one place “Inside the Beltway”. The rest of the Country understands and aggrees with them!
I objected and said that opposition was very much alive online, where people are actively and aggressively organizing to oppose this administration and just because we weren’t getting arrested didn’t mean we weren’t passionate and committed.
I dunno know, Jane. Is this really “opposition”? (The fact that you have to defend this begs the very question…) What has really been accomplished other than abdication of personal responsibility? WE DIDN’T STOP THEM. We kept buying houses, driving our cars, and hoping our personal comfort zones weren’t violated as we congratulated ourselves on how passionate and committed we were. And we’re still running around like chickens with our heads cut off, trying to find someone else (i.e. the proper kind of Democrats) to stop them FOR us.
I remain of the weird and no doubt unpopular opinion that all of this alleged activisim is a monumental metaphysical/logical trap into which the blogosphere has fallen. By working within the corrupt political system, the power of digital networking has been hijacked for the ultimate benefit of the very establishment one wishes to change. The real revolutionaries, it seems to me, are those willing to do the kind of inner exploration that results in individual behavorial change.
I totally believe that the opportunity presented by the current state of impasse and broken institutions lies in precisely that area, and it doesn’t take a movement to get there.
davidinmanhattan @ 221
You should’ve introduced yourself, would’ve been nice to meet you.
Jane Hamsher @ 261
Jane,
Yes, I wanted to, but it was a bit too crowded and they wanted us to leave quickly! Any chance you’re back in NYC soon?