Christy!

One of the best possible reasons to call!

Christy!

should I call before or after I take my oxycotin?

Probably after…. that way it will be less painful… ;)

I’ll make lotsa calls. I have time on my hands today…

shoot. i just got epu’ed… but it’s on topic now, so here’s a repeat:
……………..

just got this via email from Siun (it’s not even posted yet on the HJC website):

important markup hearing tomorrow:

Wednesday, October 10, 2007
10:15 am - House Judiciary
Markup of: H.R. ___, the “Responsible Electronic Surveillance That is Overseen, Reviewed, and Effective Act of 2007″

i’ve updated the weekly hearing list and plan to make an audio recording from the webcast (for posting as a podcast) especially if c-span does not cover it.

You can give the Congressional Progressive Caucus a shoutout on Facebook.

Thanks CHS…calling.

Article about the history of A*P*C. This is really.. really worth the read
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/gs.....leid=11727

selise @ 6

Oh, dear. The bill is going to be called the “RESTORE Act.” Isn’t that precious?

Color me underwhelmed.

burnspbesq @ 9

selise @ 6

On, dear. The bill is going to be called the “RESTORE Act.” Isn’t that precious?

Color me underwhelmed.

Meant to say “Oh, dear.” Not easy to type on an iPhone on a moving train.

selise @ 6

shoot. i just got epu’ed… but it’s on topic now, so here’s a repeat:
……………..

just got this via email from Siun (it’s not even posted yet on the HJC website):

important markup hearing tomorrow:

Wednesday, October 10, 2007
10:15 am - House Judiciary
Markup of: H.R. ___, the “Responsible Electronic Surveillance That is Overseen, Reviewed, and Effective Act of 2007″

i’ve updated the weekly hearing list and plan to make an audio recording from the webcast (for posting as a podcast) especially if c-span does not cover it.

sorry - wrong link. here’s the weekly hearing list.

Glenn Greenwald has an interesting article on the FISA-Fix’s Fix over at Salon: http://www.salon.com/opinion/g.....index.html

wigwam at 12 — yes, I linked that article above and quoted directly from it.

burnspbesq @ 9

Color me underwhelmed.

there are 2 issues here (as far as i can see). one is the reasonableness of the house bill. the other is what games might be played with the house rules.

last time the house preventage passage of the house bill by requiring 2/3 to pass, while smoothing passage for the evil senate bill by allowing a simple majority for passage.

i’m going to be watching the house rules very carefully.

Oh, and folks — do let me know how the calls are going in the comments. It’s incredibly useful information for all of us to know what sorts of responses people are getting. Thanks much!

selise @ 14

burnspbesq @ 9

Color me underwhelmed.

there are 2 issues here (as far as i can see). one is the reasonableness of the house bill. the other is what games might be played with the house rules.

last time the house preventage passage of the house bill by requiring 2/3 to pass, while smoothing passage for the evil senate bill by allowing a simple majority for passage.

i’m going to be watching the house rules very carefully.

One wonders whether Madame Speaker and some other Democrats have ever watched “The Wizard of Oz”. My guess is that they haven’t.

selise and Joe Klein — There are rumors of a planned GOP maneuver already floating. Am trying to chase that down for everyone today…

wigwam @ 12

Glenn Greenwald has an interesting article on the FISA-Fix’s Fix over at Salon: http://www.salon.com/opinion/g.....index.html
[link repaired by moderator]

“no retroactive immunity” That’s good

The Dems need to watch for the “two bites of the apple” approach that the adminstration is taking now. Like with sCHIP, where the Dems negotiated with the Rethugs in Congress, got what they thought was a workable compromise, and were then expected to engage in another round of negotiations with the White House.

This looks like a pretty good bill, but two rounds of negotiations with the Deciderer’s minions could really change that.

Christy Hardin Smith @ 17

selise and Joe Klein — There are rumors of a planned GOP maneuver already floating. Am trying to chase that down for everyone today…

Thanks. I called Casey’s office earlier. I planned on calling Pelosi’s and Hoyer’s office later
(Since my rep is a hopeless Rethug). I’ll also call Snarlin’ Arlen’s as well.

MayDaze @ 19

The Dems need to watch for the “two bites of the apple” approach that the adminstration is taking now. Like with sCHIP, where the Dems negotiated with the Rethugs in Congress, got what they thought was a workable compromise, and were then expected to engage in another round of negotiations with the White House.

This looks like a pretty good bill, but two rounds of negotiations with the Deciderer’s minions could really change that.

Maybe the Democrats should “prep the battlefield” by announcing a hearing on the WH’s burning of SITE’s al Quaeda sources.

MayDaze at 19 — It’s a much better start than the last one, I’ll certainly say that. And with some additional amendments, it can be even better. Which is why voicing support for constitutional and rule of law principles to every member of the House and Senate is so important on this.

Some things ought to be outside the realm of acceptable. For me, one of those is compromising away the Constitution and the law.

I really like these Constitution pins!!:

http://www.pinsforpatriots.com.....lated.html

even foreign-foreign calls, being routed through the U.S. via fiber optics, and a FISA court ruled this year that the language of FISA requires warrants for such calls. That was never the original intent of FISA….

what is so damn hard about getting a warrant that it shouldn’t always be required to go to FISA? The corollary is that it is tremendously easy to “happen” to mix in non-qualifying, i.e, everyday communications communications being that they are all intermixed in today’s digital communications. And who is providing the review of ALL intercepted communications to ensure that non-qualifying communications haven’t been captured?
.

LS at 23 — Those pins for patriots folks sent me one a while back, and I absolutely love mine. :)

LS @ 23

I really like these Constitution pins!!:

http://www.pinsforpatriots.com.....lated.html

a lapel pin with a point.

OT: Interesting post from Waldo Jaquith in Charlottesville, “How Mark Warner is handing Virginia Democrats the General Assembly.” It describes a lot of the dynamic of suicidal ideological purity in the VA Republican Party that is relevant on a national level as well.

Christy Hardin Smith @ 15

Oh, and folks — do let me know how the calls are going in the comments. It’s incredibly useful information for all of us to know what sorts of responses people are getting. Thanks much!

Christy, thanks for all you do–I don’t say this often enough.
As to the responses, I hardly ever get a straight answer. “I’m not aware of the Congressman’s (Senator’s) position on that bill.”

Critter: Keith Ellison (D-MN-05) Enthusiatic staffer: already had my name, address, etc on their data base; will gladly pass my comments to Congressman

Senator: Amy Klobuchar D-MN Somewhat perfunctory staffer: asked for my zip code; will pass my comments to Senator

Senator: Norm Coleman R-MN Extremely perfunctory staffer; did not ask for my zip code or address; will pass my comments to Senator

(I think House Reps keep closer tabs on their constituents than do Senators.)

Dropped a note to CA-48 on this. I don’t hold out any great hope he’ll vote for it, but it can’t hurt to badger his office…

Christy, I just got the chance to read all of today’s posts. You are on fire! I can imagine that writing that one about the Frost Family and Malkin has kind of colored your day.

If one were to try to explain to an outsider, say a historian from Mars, what had gone wrong these past seven years, today’s posts are it in a nutshell. Keep up the good fight gang!

This is a great article plus a little video about Fred Thompson…damning:

http://rawstory.com/news/2007/....._1009.html

Err…why did my comment disappear? It was an honest question! Have ya’ll (FDL) ever coordinated with other sites like DKos to get these call-in things going en masse across greater blogistan?

Why did that question go poof?

Absolutely no RESTORE:

The ”Responsible Electronic Surveillance That is Overseen, Reviewed and Effective Act of 2007” — or RESTORE Act — would clarify that no court orders are required for the government to conduct surveillance on communications outside the United States even when the surveillance is conducted on U.S. soil, provided the target of the eavesdropping is not known to be a U.S. person.

My email to Schumer and Clinton:

This concerns the updating of FISA, which is currently being considered both by the House and the Senate. At the moment, the House version is far preferable to the Senate version, and I urge you to switch your support to the stronger privacy and separation of powers guarantees that are in the House bill.

It is imperative that any bill include:

1. No retroactive immunity for Administartion officials who violated FISA.

FISA has been on the books for many years, has been updated a number of times, and many Administartions have been able to work within its legal framework. If members of the current Administration decided to do otherwise, they should answer for their actions in open court.

2. No automatic immunity for telecom companies.

If a company can show that it was coerced into cooperating with illegal Administartion actions, then they should not be held liable. But, if they willingly went along with what they knew to
be wrong, or if they traded their acquiesence for, say, leniency in antitrust matters, then they should be held to account.

3. No bypassing the FISA Court.

The FISA Court has functioned well for years. The recent attempts to smear the Court by blaming it for delays that were in fact the result of Administration incompetance, are indicative of the complete contempt that George Bush and his associates have for the rule of law. All cases need to be examined by the FISA Court, not just signed off in a general sense after the fact.

In closing, I encourage you to look at the language that is being considered in the House on theses and other aspects of FISA, and incorporate it into the Senate version.

LS @ 23

I really like these Constitution pins!!:

http://www.pinsforpatriots.com.....lated.html

Send one to Obama!

Humor aside, I really like these, too…

Biodun @ 34

Absolutely no RESTORE:

The ”Responsible Electronic Surveillance That is Overseen, Reviewed and Effective Act of 2007” — or RESTORE Act — would clarify that no court orders are required for the government to conduct surveillance on communications outside the United States even when the surveillance is conducted on U.S. soil, provided the target of the eavesdropping is not known to be a U.S. person.

“is not known to be a U.S. person”…so if they never check to see if the person is a U.S. person or not, they don’t have to get a warrant. Besides, they just datamine everybody first and pick out the juicy ones. It is all so ridiculous. They are spying, and they are torturing. Impeach.

why do we need any bill at all?

why not let this one expire and go back to the old system?

and anyway, doesn’t as bill need 40 votes to pass?

LS @ 37

Biodun @ 34

Absolutely no RESTORE:

“is not known to be a U.S. person”…so if they never check to see if the person is a U.S. person or not, they don’t have to get a warrant. Besides, they just datamine everybody first and pick out the juicy ones. It is all so ridiculous. They are spying, and they are torturing. Impeach.

And anyone using the internet is only a person or two away from a non-national.

Comments that advocate criminal behavior, including defacing the property of public officials, will be taken off the thread.

Calls into Senator Sherrod Brown (D-oh) and Senator Voinovich (R-Oh) and to Congressman Charlie Brown (D-Oh).

All three staffers had the same response not sure what the Reps think about this bill.

Will send letters on how and why they will vote the way they do.

This is the new mantra the last several years. Amazing what the staffers do not know.

From Rooters

A man was escorted from a TWA plane this afternoon prior to take off for London when he was found to be wearing a pin with a design of the American flag. Then pin was considered a “dangerous weapon” by airport security. Once the man removed the pin he was allowed to continue with his travel plans. No further action was expected by Homeland Security. A spokesperson for HS said “The pin in question depicted a terrorist symbol and had been involved in the murder of millions of people worldwide”

Hey Christy: The point isn’t fer you ta go single handedly take ‘em down…the point is: stop usin’ “INCOMPETENT” as an ajective ta describe a very intelligent and focused power structure that threatens everything ya believe in.

Maybe we ken share a few laughs on the way to Guantanamo.

LS @ 37

Biodun @ 34

Absolutely no RESTORE:

“is not known to be a U.S. person”…so if they never check to see if the person is a U.S. person or not, they don’t have to get a warrant. Besides, they just datamine everybody first and pick out the juicy ones. It is all so ridiculous. They are spying, and they are torturing. Impeach.

Richard Nixon was impeached for far less than what Shrub is doing.

nomolos @ 42

From Rooters

A man was escorted from a TWA plane this afternoon prior to take off for London when he was found to be wearing a pin with a design of the American flag. Then pin was considered a “dangerous weapon” by airport security. Once the man removed the pin he was allowed to continue with his travel plans. No further action was expected by Homeland Security. A spokesperson for HS said “The pin in question depicted a terrorist symbol and had been involved in the murder of millions of people worldwide”

It spelled out “RNC” ??

OT on the Frosts, if anyone knows them, here is the Maryland harassment law and a no. to call.

for those still appalled, there’s a discussion going on on Kos right now.

ttp://www.ncvc.org/src/main.aspx?dbID=DB_Maryland678

Harassment

Md. Criminal Law Code Ann. § 3-803. Harassment. Amended 2002.

(a) Prohibited. — A person may not follow another in or about a public place or maliciously engage in a course of conduct that alarms or seriously annoys the other :

(1) with the intent to harass, alarm, or annoy the other ;

(2) after receiving a reasonable warning or request to stop by or on behalf of the other; and

(3) without a legal purpose .

(b) Exception. — This section does not apply to a peaceable activity intended to express a political view or provide information to others .

(c) Penalty. — A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction is subject to imprisonment not exceeding 90 days or a fine not exceeding $ 500 or both .

For Victim Assistance, please call 1-800-FYI-CALL, M-F 8:30 AM - 8:30 PM EST, or e-mail us .

This project is supported by a grant awarded by the Office on Violence Against Women, Office of Justice Programs, US Department of Justice. Points of view in this document are those of the authors and do not necessarily represent the official position or policies of the US Department of Justice.

The Office of Justice Programs, Violence Against Women Office, takes no responsibility for, and exercises no control over the organizations, views, accuracy, copyright or trademark compliance, or legality of the material contained on this server. Thank you for visiting our site.

When will this bill be debated and voted on? Or isn’t that known yet.

Biodun, what is with Klobachar and her office anyway? I have called many times and always get the ’somewhat perfunctory’ answer “I will pass your comments along”. Or “she is still analyzing…”. she is a smart lady. I used to work with her when I workekd in Mpls. at a lawfirm.

She appears to have been drinking the D.C. koolaid and has been advised by the ‘know-it-alls’ that she should not ruffle any feathers at first. She is a disappointment, albeit still a dem. sigh…

Red state update…watch this video
http://www.salon.com/ent/video.....ateupdate/

That bill would compel the administration

That’s the funniest thing I’ve read in a looooooong time.

JR

I am functioning on a rather low level today and posted on an old thread. So I will repeat myself as follows:

Please do not send the Frost family donations. This would count as income and could potentially make them ineligible for the very program that they have bravely supported. This is a means based program, and I am not sure of the exact income or property limits in Maryland,but this could tip the kids out of the coverage. A homestead, two vehicles (one to transport handicapped children and one for the parents work) are usually excluded. This is what these nuts do not understand. These types of guidelines have been around since at least 1974 when the Social Security Adm took over adult and handicapped children needs programs because the states had really crappy rules, and created the Supplemental Security Income program. Their ignorance is appalling and they do not know what they are talking about as usual.

NorskeFlamethrower @ 43

Hey Christy: The point isn’t fer you ta go single handedly take ‘em down…the point is: stop usin’ “INCOMPETENT” as an ajective ta describe a very intelligent and focused power structure that threatens everything ya believe in.

Maybe we ken share a few laughs on the way to Guantanamo.

Bushco privatizes agencies and does not regulate or oversee them. The agencies then have mishaps that are sometimes revealed in the media. It looks like incompetence. Though there is incompetence on one level, the act of privatization is very often intended by design to crash the system. The end result always ends up hurting the public.

Bushco is wrecking our public systems intentionally.

Israel’s rising right wing
http://www.salon.com/news/feat.....amak_bibi/

In March, while in town for the annual A*P*C conference in Washington, Netanyahu met privately with Vice President Dick Cheney at the White House, where they reportedly discussed stepping up pressure on Iran, with an eye toward military options.

More wisdom from Christy Hardin Smith, in the new thread:

Speaking Of People With A Tendency To Cave

GrandmaJ @ 48

Biodun, what is with Klobachar and her office anyway? I have called many times and always get the ’somewhat perfunctory’ answer “I will pass your comments along”. Or “she is still analyzing…”. she is a smart lady. I used to work with her when I workekd in Mpls. at a lawfirm.

She appears to have been drinking the D.C. koolaid and has been advised by the ‘know-it-alls’ that she should not ruffle any feathers at first. She is a disappointment, albeit still a dem. sigh…

I have been absolutely disappointed with Klobuchar. I campaigned for her a little bit. I knew her when she was Hennepin County District Attorney, when I thought she was defintely a progressive. She campaigned as a progressive. She was even in ActBlue on Blue America. She voted for FISA. Then she voted to condemn the MoveOn.org ad. She should know better than to attack the First Amendment of the US Constitution. Her father is a journalist! for God’s sake. He’s the well-respected Joe Klobuchar. In DC, she’s been playing it safe, it seems.

That bill would compel the administration

That’s the funniest thing I’ve read in a long time.

This is the just released Homeland Security “Plan”:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/info.....index.html

called: my rep, my senators, pelosi and reid.

asked for a good bill this time, and from my rep and pelois i asked that they not play games with the rules this time in order to assure passage of the senate bill while blocking the house bill.

I emailed Rahm Emanuel, for what its worth. He is my congresscritter … so he’s who I contact. I don’t do phone calls, which are difficult at work anyway — but emails I can send out.

Thanks so much to everyone making the calls — I really appreciate all the hard work from everyone on this and every other issue we’ve been trying to do work on the last few months. You guys rock!

May I add another action that will help to let the government know we have a voice and want to be heard? The action costs nothing and makes a statement that we want an end to the war in Iraq.

ARMS AGAINST WAR asks only that you wear a plain white, home-made (free/instantly available) armband to show agreement with the statement “I want an end to the war in Iraq”.

This is a global action with no political/religious/geographical association - just a campaign seeking to unite those who oppose this war - into one visible mass.

It does no harm, it may do good and there is no good reason not too :)

2000 years ago, a Roman Senator suggested that all slaves wear white armbands to better identify them.
“No,” said a wiser Senator.
“If they see how many of them there are, they may revolt.”

Namaste,
Tina Louise
http://www.armsagainstwar.info

Here’s my letter to the editor.

To the Editor:

The RESTORE Act of 2007 will be introduced by the Chairmen of the House Judiciary and Intelligence committees as a response to the awful but thankfully temporary FISA legislation (The Protect America Act)that was railroaded through Congress before the August break on what Congresswoman Jane Harmon, chairwoman of the House Homeland Security Subcommittee on Terrorism Risk Assessment, subsequently described as bogus intelligence from the Bush administration about an imminent threat of an attack upon the Capitol.

Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi has promised to fix the FISA legilation and RESTORE, which stands for Responsible Surveillance That is Overseen, Reviewed and Effective, goes a long way toward restoring the confidence that security needs can be balanced against privacy rights. The bill provides the Intelligence Community with effective tools to conduct surveillance of foreign targets outside the United States while at the same time reaffirming constitutionally mandated checks and balances.

A front page article in the New York Times by Eric Lichtblau and Carl Hulse suggests that Democrats remain nervous that they will be called soft on terrorism if they insist on strict curbs on intelligence gathering and that they may cave to pressure from the administration on the bill.

The democrats should realize by now that they will not loose elections, or the respect of the American people, if they stand up for what is right.

I sent a fax to my NJ Congressman and Senators… here’s what I wrote (I’m at work and can’t make the phone call right now)

Taking away our civil liberties is a form of Domestic Terrorism.
As your constituent, I am urging you to vote YES to the RESTORE Act.
You will NOT be considered SOFT on terrorism by voting for the following:

* Restores court oversight of intelligence by requiring that electronic surveillance programs be approved by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) Court.
* Mandates that FISA warrants be obtained when the administration wants to undertake surveillance of persons in the US.
* No retroactive immunity for telecommunications companies that cooperated with the administration’s warrantless surveillance.
* Does not require individual warrants when targets are reasonably believed to be abroad.
* Ensures FISA is the exclusive means of electronic surveillance and that no modifications can be made without express legal authorization.

PLEASE HELP restore the Rule of Law.
You help fight terrorism by making us a stronger nation who respects our Constitution than by taking our liberties away.
Thank you for your time and consideration. Please vote to restore, not to destroy.

It’s not much, but it’s the least I can do.

What about non-citizens living inside the U.S.?

A focus on “US Citizens” only leaves the millions of legal immigrants in the US without protection, even though our Bill of Rights talks about “persons” not “citizens” as having the rights within it.

Here in California, non-citizens that I know are everyone from children to college students to co-workers to family members of citizens.

My doctor isn’t a citizen- should she receive no constitutional protections unless she’s talking to me on the phone?

With all due respect, Christy, FireDogLake is once again resembling Marshal Petain and the Vichy regime. We got into this mess because of compromises such as that which you are suggesting. To quote Mel Brooks’s Hitler (The Producers), “A little piece of Poland, a little piece of France…” This is NOT the way to deal with these people who are holding our country (and all of the other nations of the world) hostage.

The FISA court, a secret star chamber, is, in itself, unConstitutional. I, an authentic liberal, isn’t alone in that belief - It’s shared by many legal and Constitutional scholars on both ends of the ideological spectrum.

Any legislation that cedes authority to FISA court (as this legislation would do), legitimizes it. The longer that it exists without its Constitutionality being challenged, the harder it becomes to get rid of it. Unfortunately, we’re coming up to FISA’s 30th birthday, and its creation was a bad response to criminal activities by the same group of people in power in our government today.

There really is no reason, none, to have a clandestine judicial institution operating in the shadows, out of the view and oversight of anybody, unless it is to hijack the American government and use it for the express wishes of an elite few (the Corporate class).

We need to address the root causes that are creating people who commit the kinds of crimes that the FISA Court was created to deal with. Once sunlight shines on what the FISA Court (and the Bush administration) keep secret, the American people can see how their money and military have been misused around the world: To make very few filthy rich and powerful, and millions of others sick, dead and enslaved.

There should be no compromising, which is what this bill is. The Patriot Act needs to be overturned, the FISA Court needs to be shut down, Congress needs to find the Bush administration in inherent contempt, and Democrats need to rediscover America by sticking to the instruments for democracy and individual rights that the founders left for us.

Maeven — What part of the post asking to call legislators and ask them to stand up for Constitutional rights and the rule of law did you misunderstand to be a call for surrender? Jeebus, reading comprehension rather than ranting is inherently useful.

I said rule of law — not caving. Vast difference.

Maeven @ 65

With all due respect, Christy, FireDogLake is once again resembling Marshal Petain and the Vichy regime. We got into this mess because of compromises such as that which you are suggesting. To quote Mel Brooks’s Hitler (The Producers), “A little piece of Poland, a little piece of France…” This is NOT the way to deal with these people who are holding our country (and all of the other nations of the world) hostage.

The FISA court, a secret star chamber, is, in itself, unConstitutional. I, an authentic liberal, isn’t alone in that belief - It’s shared by many legal and Constitutional scholars on both ends of the ideological spectrum.

Any legislation that cedes authority to FISA court (as this legislation would do), legitimizes it. The longer that it exists without its Constitutionality being challenged, the harder it becomes to get rid of it. Unfortunately, we’re coming up to FISA’s 30th birthday, and its creation was a bad response to criminal activities by the same group of people in power in our government today.

There really is no reason, none, to have a clandestine judicial institution operating in the shadows, out of the view and oversight of anybody, unless it is to hijack the American government and use it for the express wishes of an elite few (the Corporate class).

We need to address the root causes that are creating people who commit the kinds of crimes that the FISA Court was created to deal with. Once sunlight shines on what the FISA Court (and the Bush administration) keep secret, the American people can see how their money and military have been misused around the world: To make very few filthy rich and powerful, and millions of others sick, dead and enslaved.

There should be no compromising, which is what this bill is. The Patriot Act needs to be overturned, the FISA Court needs to be shut down, Congress needs to find the Bush administration in inherent contempt, and Democrats need to rediscover America by sticking to the instruments for democracy and individual rights that the founders left for us.

All due respect, Maeven, it’s time to come home to the world that the rest of us live in.

Those are wonderful aspirations you’ve expressed in your comment. Not a single one of them has a snowball’s chance in hell of being realized any time soon.

We all know that the RESTORE Act is not good enough, just as the SCHIP re-authorization bill is not good enough and the non-inclusive ENDA is not good enough. But what is attainable is better than the status quo, and we refuse to let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

If you can’t live with that, then kindly step out of the way. There’s work to be done.

Christy Hardin Smith @ 66

Maeven — What part of the post asking to call legislators and ask them to stand up for Constitutional rights and the rule of law did you misunderstand to be a call for surrender? Jeebus, reading comprehension rather than ranting is inherently useful.

I said rule of law — not caving. Vast difference.

Are these your words?:

” No bypassing the FISA court where jurisdiction is appropriate for US citizen surveillance.”

When you write those words along with, “ask them [members of Congress] to stand up for Constitutional rights and the rule of law”, am I mistaken in my understanding that you think that the FISA court is Constitutional?

Kathryn from California @ 64

What about non-citizens living inside the U.S.?

A focus on “US Citizens” only leaves the millions of legal immigrants in the US without protection, even though our Bill of Rights talks about “persons” not “citizens” as having the rights within it.

Here in California, non-citizens that I know are everyone from children to college students to co-workers to family members of citizens.

My doctor isn’t a citizen- should she receive no constitutional protections unless she’s talking to me on the phone?

To deny rights to alien residents or legal alien visitors is ridiculously bad as it would isolate us from the world. It’s a Pat Buchanan dream come true.

When Eleanor Roosevelt wrote about the Declaration of Human Rights for the United Nations she didn’t add any exceptions for individuals away from their home country.

burnspbesq @ 67

Maeven @ 65

With all due respect, Christy, FireDogLake is once again resembling Marshal Petain and the Vichy regime. We got into this mess because of compromises such as that which you are suggesting. To quote Mel Brooks’s Hitler (The Producers), “A little piece of Poland, a little piece of France…” This is NOT the way to deal with these people who are holding our country (and all of the other nations of the world) hostage.

The FISA court, a secret star chamber, is, in itself, unConstitutional. I, an authentic liberal, isn’t alone in that belief - It’s shared by many legal and Constitutional scholars on both ends of the ideological spectrum.

Any legislation that cedes authority to FISA court (as this legislation would do), legitimizes it. The longer that it exists without its Constitutionality being challenged, the harder it becomes to get rid of it. Unfortunately, we’re coming up to FISA’s 30th birthday, and its creation was a bad response to criminal activities by the same group of people in power in our government today.

There really is no reason, none, to have a clandestine judicial institution operating in the shadows, out of the view and oversight of anybody, unless it is to hijack the American government and use it for the express wishes of an elite few (the Corporate class).

We need to address the root causes that are creating people who commit the kinds of crimes that the FISA Court was created to deal with. Once sunlight shines on what the FISA Court (and the Bush administration) keep secret, the American people can see how their money and military have been misused around the world: To make very few filthy rich and powerful, and millions of others sick, dead and enslaved.

There should be no compromising, which is what this bill is. The Patriot Act needs to be overturned, the FISA Court needs to be shut down, Congress needs to find the Bush administration in inherent contempt, and Democrats need to rediscover America by sticking to the instruments for democracy and individual rights that the founders left for us.

All due respect, Maeven, it’s time to come home to the world that the rest of us live in.

Those are wonderful aspirations you’ve expressed in your comment. Not a single one of them has a snowball’s chance in hell of being realized any time soon.

We all know that the RESTORE Act is not good enough, just as the SCHIP re-authorization bill is not good enough and the non-inclusive ENDA is not good enough. But what is attainable is better than the status quo, and we refuse to let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

If you can’t live with that, then kindly step out of the way. There’s work to be done.

Not by you, burnspeq. I’m not Sistah Soldjah, and you’re not Bill or Hillary Clinton.

We, real democrats, have been living with the results of what you DINOs (DLC, DSCC, DCCC, Clintonian-triangulators) could live with, what you have thought was attainable ever since Ronald Reagan said “Liberal, liberal, liberal” (Republican-speak for “BOO!”). You didn’t know what to say back to Republicans then and you don’t know what to say now.

The DINOs didn’t know how to defend liberalism then because they were opportunistic professional politicians, not true champions of the people. The result of that failure has been a dramatic slide into fascism. If this was Nazi Germany, we’d be having this conversation on the train to Auschwitz.

It’s long past the time for real democrats, liberals, the true base of the Democratic party, to realize that a thorough housecleaning has to happen at “home” before it can happen in Congress and the White House. Since moderate Republicans haven’t been successful in wresting control of the Republican party away from the Christian fundamentalists, the DLC (et al) have been making the Democratic party over into a place where moderate Republicans will feel comfortable. That means driving us liberals out into third parties where our power would be diluted. This has been the plan for a long time.

Moderate Republicans have been trying to reclaim the Republican party for several election cycles. With Dobson’s threat last week, this just may be that pivotal election for them. The race by both parties is on for the center, and with this latest disappointment by Reid and Pelosi on the Democratic side (just one more in a long list of failures and broken promises), they may just succeed in driving the Democratic base out first. If the DLC (et al) succeeds, don’t expect a party of centrist Democrats and moderate Republicans to restore any individual rights or privacy. Nor will they end the threat of terrorist attacks. They will just perfect what Bush and Cheney have begun: Fascist authoritarian government. However, privatization and the wholesale sell-off of America’s resources will resume at breakneck speed. And perpetual war is guaranteed. Expect ‘All fear, an attack at any time’.

I was just about to hit ’send’ when I looked up and saw CNN’s chiron cross the bottom of the television screen: Al Qaeda issues new threat warning.” It’s deja vu all over again. It’s a repeat of the threats circulated in August to pressure Congress into supporting the “Protect America Act”. Of what Jane Harman admitted a couple of weeks ago were hyped exaggerations, fear-mongering by an administration that appears to not be above false-flag operations in order to install an authoritarian dictatorship.

No, burnspeq, it’s time for you and other DINOs to move out of the way since you can’t defend, explain or fight for democratic policies and platforms, and leave the restoration of Americans’ rights and advancement of democratic principles and legislation to those of us who actually live them.

While burnspeq may see her position of Democrat-Republican compromise as reasonable and “more realistic”, the fact is that all of the compromising has been done by liberals. To the detriment and loss for us all of Constitutional rights and protections. Centrists have conceded Democrats’ positions to the point of complete capitulation. Along the way, centrist Democrats have aided and abetted Republicans in the demonization of liberals.

Despite how liberals are characterized by Fox News and Talk Radio broadcasters, we are not radical in any sense of the word. Neither are we far-out, or far-left for that matter. Those who are radical and far-left have long been marginalized and absent from influencing politics, for at least three decades. On the other hand, the far-right and the right (Conservatives), while comprising a fraction of the American population overall and representing less than one-third of American voters, exert an iron-grip on American policy. And they haven’t compromised an inch in the nearly thirty years since they came to power.

What began as the loosening of regulations thirty years ago (that was supposed to lead to increased business growth and profit which would benefit all classes of Americans) has led to the elimination of most regulations, worsening standards (that is hurting our safety, health and well-being), and the selling off of our shared collective resources (water, lumber, oil, minerals, etc.) to private corporations.

The center line in American politics is so far to the right now (much farther to the right than is actually the center of where the American people are) because liberals are excluded entirely from the process. We are regularly dismissed by both our elected representatives and the mainstream media, denounced as “socialists,” “commies,” “radical anarchists” who are “just one protest away from being sent to camps as traitors.”

If centrist Democrats merge with moderate Republicans to form the dominant political influence in U.S. politics, what changes can we expect to see?

As the only people that centrist Democrats have stood up to and said no to are those to their left, we should expect more of the same: Corporate protections, rights and interests superceding the rights of the citizen. But at a faster pace. Even with Christian fundamentalists’ influence diminished, their ideological positions will continue to gain momentum because they satisfy the Corporatists’ interests, too, albeit for different reasons.

We’re approaching another crossroads, what could be the tipping point. Will centrist Democrats take a step back, recognize how vital it is that they listen to their better angels, and not trade away Constitutional rights and protections because they’re afraid of looking like obstructionists?