JANE!

Hello, Jane!

We can win this one.

Not sure I understood the last para? We can donate money to help people local to the area to put pressure on these five “Dems”?

Putting together faxes for them, at any rate ;-)

egregious @ 3

We can win this one.

We can sure try. It’s not one to give up on. You know the GOP is hammering their own not to switch and trying to flip those who did vote for S-CHIP.

Having these Democrats support the bill would put us a whole lot closer.

Ironic that two dem holdouts are from Edwards home state. What’s that all about?

PS: good morning all.

These “dogs” wearing Dem clothing, whether they are “Blue” or “Bush,” need to be reminded that when they are acting like dogs, it is not a positive thing.

What they most resemble is the beaten cur that is so afraid that at the first sign of any resistance from the right, they roll over and show their bellies in fear. Not a trait they should be bragging about by any stretch of the imagination.

peanutbutter @ 4

Not sure I understood the last para? We can donate money to help people local to the area to put pressure on these five “Dems”?

Putting together faxes for them, at any rate ;-)

They’re recorded calls. You can hear one here:

http://static.firedoglake.com/2007/10/marshall.wav

do-si-do @ 6

Ironic that two dem holdouts are from Edwards home state. What’s that all about?

PS: good morning all.

Oh, to answer my own question, maybe it’s Tobacco Tax?

While we believe that there should be a big tent within the Democratic party, there are some issues that are not negotiable, and making sure kids have health care is one of them.

if making sure that kids have health care is a non-negotiable issue – then why has the health care of immigrant children (even legal immigrant children) been apparently negotiated away?

do-si-do @ 9

do-si-do @ 6

Ironic that two dem holdouts are from Edwards home state. What’s that all about?

PS: good morning all.

Oh, to answer my own question, maybe it’s Tobacco Tax?

That was my cynical take. M O N E Y is at play here.

Absolutely. Also, if for no other reason, I want an override just to show up the MSM which is already saying it’s not gonna happen.

I’ve said this a zillion times and I’ll say it again – bullshit to compromise on this. The bill President Fucktard vetoed WAS the compromise. That’s why it got support from such a wide range of senators across party and ideological lines. There has been compromise on this already. Now, you’re either for it or against it.

Great job Jane and Blue America and everybody.

I even let my rep. hear from me-even though he’s not gonna change his no vote no how, no way – that this is gonna be an albatross around his neck (along with the fact that he’s a corrupt pr*ck.)

Billions and billions for war.
Got a sick kid?
Feck off.

Semi on-topic: Today the LA Times added it’s voice to the chorus of newspaper op-eds blasting Bush’s veto:

California opens Healthy Families to households that earn 2 1/2 times the federal poverty level, which comes to $51,625 a year for a family of four. The compromise Bush vetoed would have allowed three times the poverty level, or $61,950, and would have supplied $35 billion in new money over five years to cover rising costs and add more kids to the program. Bush claimed that wealthy families that can afford insurance without help would start applying for government assistance. He is offering less than one-seventh of what Congress asked.

That figure doesn’t cut it for California, where successful outreach has pulled thousands of new kids into the program and could target thousands more. At the level of funding Bush is willing to accept, those kids would be left without insurance — or in programs that increase the burden on taxpayers — nine months into next year. Every year after, coverage would lapse earlier and earlier. That would deepen California’s healthcare crisis even as Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger and Democrats attempt to cut a deal to expand coverage.

do-si-do @ 9

do-si-do @ 6

Ironic that two dem holdouts are from Edwards home state. What’s that all about?

PS: good morning all.

Oh, to answer my own question, maybe it’s Tobacco Tax?

Ethridge and McIntyre are #7 and #11 respectively for top Big Tobacco campaign donations. But Bart Gordon is ahead of them both, and he voted for S-CHIP.

http://opensecrets.org/industr…..#038;Mem=Y

do-si-do @ 9

do-si-do @ 6

Ironic that two dem holdouts are from Edwards home state. What’s that all about?

PS: good morning all.

Oh, to answer my own question, maybe it’s Tobacco Tax?

That’s supposed to be the excuse that Baron Hill is using.

Unfortunately, the Louisville Courier-Journal did a big story in the last week or so about how Kentucky and Indiana would be losing money in the overall scheme due to the large numbers of smokers.

Specious argument but one some folks are swallowing.

do-si-do — Tobacco lobby is putting HUGE pressure on their usual voting bloc. There have been pressure point sales leaflets and other information given out at convenience stores and other places where smokers buy their cigarettes urging them to call their legislators and tell them to vote “no” on SCHIP. It’s one of the many reasons why we’ve been urging pushback calls on this issue.

selise at 10 — I answered that one for you in the prior thread — don’t know if you saw it.

Here is a great video on unity. Those 5 dems should watch it.

The Battle of Kruger

Fax numbers:

Jim Marshall 202 225 3013

Baron Hill 202 226 6866

Gene Taylor 202 225 7074

Bob Etheridge 202 225 5662

Mike McIntyre 202 225 5773

To the faxes pups!

Jane:

What’s the story with Barron Hill?

I’ve read here that his office is saying that this will cost Indiana more than Indiana gets (did he make himself a Senator so he could represnet the whole state?) But that’s a new one. So far it’s been about illegals, $83,000 per families and 25 year old children. What’s the real deal with Hill?

On each of the earlier times Bush vetoed bills, he did so with great fanfare, invited in the cameras, and swaggered. On SCHIP, he did it behind closed doors and issued a press release.

Bush is scared he’s going to lose this battle. And he’s right.

Even better, if the Dems learn that it is possible to stand up to Bush on this, they might actually try it on other life and death issues — like the war in Iraq. That really scares BushCo Industries, Inc.

Jane Hamsher @ 15

do-si-do @ 9

Oh, to answer my own question, maybe it’s Tobacco Tax?

Ethridge and McIntyre are #7 and #11 respectively for top Big Tobacco campaign donations. But Bart Gordon is ahead of them both, and he voted for S-CHIP.

http://opensecrets.org/industr…..&Mem=Y

Ahhh! Very interesting–thanks for sharing that tidbit!

Bustednuckles @ 13

Billions and billions for war.
Got a sick kid?
Feck off.

I have suggested that Democrats should make use of the spit-take more often when dealing with this ridiculousness.

Also, was I the only one who thought today’s NYT article touting SCHIP as a good “wedge issue” was offensive?

I think of wedge issues as non-issues brought up to force uncomfortable votes. I think of SCHIP as good policy with broad bipartisan support (ergo, how can it be a wedge issue?) that some Republicans, bucking the sentiments of most of the country, don’t like.

There are wedge issues, and then there are issues – this is the latter.

Beerfart Liberal @ 21

Jane:

What’s the story with Barron Hill?

I’ve read here that his office is saying that this will cost Indiana more than Indiana gets (did he make himself a Senator so he could represnet the whole state?) But that’s a new one. So far it’s been about illegals, $83,000 per families and 25 year old children. What’s the real deal with Hill?

Howie on Hill:

http://downwithtyranny.blogspo…..nture.html

1,621 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..

Citizen Hamsher and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:

“The Democratic House leadership put the hammer down…”

Ah yes…and jest where did they leave that hammer? If the house leadership really swung the hammer at DINOs and Bushdogs they would be outta committee assignments and moved ta subcommittees countin’ M&M’s in big jars.

No, I think that the house leadership is completely in the bag for Mrs. Clinton’s beltway machine and hiddin’ behind not havin’ a veto-proof majority in order to satisfy Mrs. Clinton’s obligations to the insurance trusts and Big Pharma.

What’s the evidence that Pelosi still has ANY clout left in her caucus?

KEEP THE FAITH BUT VERIFY…YA GOTTA KNOW WHO THE ENEMY IS!!

BlueAm PAC donation: I’m in.

Again, FYI:

Even though the Senate has enough votes to override the veto, you might still call your senators to urge them to vote to override, especially those who voted against to begin with.

As for those fifteen Repugs…

Christy Hardin Smith @ 17

do-si-do — Tobacco lobby is putting HUGE pressure on their usual voting bloc. There have been pressure point sales leaflets and other information given out at convenience stores and other places where smokers buy their cigarettes urging them to call their legislators and tell them to vote “no” on SCHIP. It’s one of the many reasons why we’ve been urging pushback calls on this issue.

Thanks, Christy. I didn’t know this either.

It’s just relentless, isn’t it? Maybe some of those smokers would actually acknowledge their addiction, and think, hey, if I can do the kids some good and prevent them from doing what I did…
Call me a dreamer.

egregious @ 27

BlueAm PAC donation: I’m in.

Woo hoo, egregious!

We’re placing a rather large number of calls. They will definitely hear about this.

I’ve been watching this debate from Canada.
This idea that insured families would drop their private insurance for SCHIP leaves the impression that the WHOLE FAMILY would be covered by SCHIP, which I don’t think is the case.

As one who grew up in the US and learned to look after myself healthwise cause I had no other option, and has now lived in Canada for the biggest part of my life, I want to say don’t listen to those who try to scare Americans about universal health care with the Canadian Nightmare (sic).

Though the Canadian Health System is under attack by neo-cons who would starve it of funds, to make private care look more attractive, and the realities of demographics – an aging population – a middle class Canadian has much better, more dependable and more affordable (premiums if enough income) than a middle class American. As Michael Moore pointed out in a pretend debate I saw on American TeeVee, the line (waiting time for services) is shorter in the US, because so many people aren’t even allowed to be IN the line.

BTW, are there any middle class Americans left, or has Bu$hCo eliminated them entirely already!

Peterr @ 22

On each of the earlier times Bush vetoed bills, he did so with great fanfare, invited in the cameras, and swaggered. On SCHIP, he did it behind closed doors and issued a press release.

Bush is scared he’s going to lose this battle. And he’s right.

Even better, if the Dems learn that it is possible to stand up to Bush on this, they might actually try it on other life and death issues — like the war in Iraq. That really scares BushCo Industries, Inc.

Maybe this will prove once and for all, that the Dems are the real “pro-life” IE life-affirming, party.

I think “cartoon villain” says it all (thanks again Jon Stewart)

do-si-do @ 32

Peterr @ 22

On each of the earlier times Bush vetoed bills, he did so with great fanfare, invited in the cameras, and swaggered. On SCHIP, he did it behind closed doors and issued a press release.

Bush is scared he’s going to lose this battle. And he’s right.

Even better, if the Dems learn that it is possible to stand up to Bush on this, they might actually try it on other life and death issues — like the war in Iraq. That really scares BushCo Industries, Inc.

Maybe this will prove once and for all, that the Dems are the real “pro-life” IE life-affirming, party.

I think “cartoon villain” says it all (thanks again Jon Stewart)

check out this Luckovich cartoon…

Why does George Bush hate sick children?

Christy Hardin Smith @ 18

selise at 10 — I answered that one for you in the prior thread — don’t know if you saw it.

thanks christy, i hadn’t seen it before i commented here… it answers my previous question but not my question at 10 here.

p.s. left you a reply of STRONG disagreement.

I’ll place a call myself, but I’m not a fan of robocalls. Has Blue America placed robocalls before? Do they work? I realize everyone in politics does it, but, personally, I tune them out.

Mutant Poodle @ 14

Semi on-topic: Today the LA Times added it’s voice to the chorus of newspaper op-eds blasting Bush’s veto:

California opens Healthy Families to households that earn 2 1/2 times the federal poverty level, which comes to $51,625 a year for a family of four. The compromise Bush vetoed would have allowed three times the poverty level, or $61,950, and would have supplied $35 billion in new money over five years to cover rising costs and add more kids to the program. Bush claimed that wealthy families that can afford insurance without help would start applying for government assistance. He is offering less than one-seventh of what Congress asked.

That figure doesn’t cut it for California, where successful outreach has pulled thousands of new kids into the program and could target thousands more. At the level of funding Bush is willing to accept, those kids would be left without insurance — or in programs that increase the burden on taxpayers — nine months into next year. Every year after, coverage would lapse earlier and earlier. That would deepen California’s healthcare crisis even as Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger and Democrats attempt to cut a deal to expand coverage.

It doesn’t cut it where I live, either (Fairfax, VA.) $61,950 is about the same as the estimate of the minimum for a family of four to live on here. Not to live well, the absolute minimum to afford food, housing, etc.

egregious @ 34

Why does George Bush hate sick children?

Cuz they don’t have money to bribe him with?

egregious @ 34

Why does George Bush hate sick children?

Because they aren’t fighting his war.

exile at 31 — That’s not quite right: this insurance only covers children — parents are NOT covered by it. It’s a stop-gap measure for poor families or ones on that borderline monetarily for whom private health coverage is too expensive. The coverage is solely for kids — hence the Children’s portion of the name.

Chris Van Hollen needs to make SCHIP a leadership vote: you’re either with the Democrats or with the terrorists. No DCCC money if you vote to uphold Bush’s evil veto.

Great ad — it’s terrific to see BlueAmerica in this fight.

selise — Left you a response.

SaltinWound @ 36

I’ll place a call myself, but I’m not a fan of robocalls. Has Blue America placed robocalls before? Do they work? I realize everyone in politics does it, but, personally, I tune them out.

I tune out the robocalls from famous people, but this one is quite compelling, as she sounds like the real person she is. (Although I admit to listening to an entire robocall from Paul Newman once….)

Inside the Beltway CW, as parroted on NPR this morning:

No chance of overturning the veto in the House.
Thus, all efforts to do so are signs of the Dems’ partisanship.
The truly principled people in all of this
are the deadenders Republican supporters of small government.

Just gag me.

do-si-do @ 9

do-si-do @ 6

Ironic that two dem holdouts are from Edwards home state. What’s that all about?

PS: good morning all.

Oh, to answer my own question, maybe it’s Tobacco Tax?

Probably, Etheridge is a big proponent of the Tobacco Quota Buy Out…which ironically is because tobacco sales are WAY DOWN!

Ironically Etheridge states on his web site that “This election of 2008 is of extreme importance to the future of the 2nd District, the State of North Carolina and the entire country. The fate and quality of our children’s education, access to more and better-paying jobs, affordable, quality health care for our families, and security in our hometowns all hang in the balance. The direction of our country for years to come will be decided next November.”

I guess that affordable, quality health care for our families, may hang in the balance in the election…but not in the 2nd District NC anymore. Mr. Etheridge has said “hang it”!

Teddy at 43 — I certainly would have listened to Paul Newman, too — love his husky voice. ;-)

One interesting side note — this program used to be called just CHIP. I believe it was Gingrich’s Republicans who changed the name to State Children’s Health Insurance Program — the money still came from the federal government, but they got to pretend it was a state program, since state government is of course less evil (i.e., more likely to be Republican) than the federal government.

And of course, like every social-welfare program that Republicans put their fingerprints on (think EITC, for example), once it actually shows signs of working, rather than making low-income people suffer for the moral failing of not being rich, they try to figure out how they can undermine it.

OfT: Liz Cheney and George Macaca to spin for Fred Thompson tomorrow nite at the Michigan MSNBC debate.

TeddySanFran @ 48

OfT: Liz Cheney and George Macaca to spin for Fred Thompson tomorrow nite at the Michigan MSNBC debate.

Oh, puke.

Jane and Christy,

Thanks for doing this. I hit the PAC jar when I kicked in for Andrew Rice that you sponsored on Saturday. Howie foreshadowed an upcoming fistfight, and you know me, I’m into that kinda stuff.

And thanks for having Andrew over, it is so important to beat Inhofe and replace him a counterweight to Coburn.

I hope lots of people kick in today, even if it’s only five or ten dollars. That stuff adds up pretty quick.

Thanks for the info on Hill, Jane.

Related to the prior thread, my senator had a bogus anti-SCHIP op-ed last Sunday. Wrote a LTE and called bulshit on him and got published. Really happy. First time I ever got one in. The only 2 LTEs on SCHIP have been pro.

again, NO COMPROMISE!!!

Oh I see. The robocalls to *people* in the districts to presumably motivate them in turn to pressure the local politicians…

OK. Sorry, I can be dense sometimes. I’m like, why robocall the politicians?

D’oh. Back to lurking :-P

Beerfart Liberal @ 51

Thanks for the info on Hill, Jane.

Related to the prior thread, my senator had a bogus anti-SCHIP op-ed last Sunday. Wrote a LTE and called bulshit on him and got published. Really happy. First time I ever got one in. The only 2 LTEs on SCHIP have been pro.

again, NO COMPROMISE!!!

link? I wanna see!

Helpless Dancer -

Apologies for the busted linky I left downstairs…….and thanks to twolf for the fixer. Left the computer for a bit and just now got back.

peanutbutter @ 52

Oh I see. The robocalls to *people* in the districts to presumably motivate them in turn to pressure the local politicians…

OK. Sorry, I can be dense sometimes. I’m like, why robocall the politicians?

D’oh. Back to lurking :-P

I thought the same thing for a moment. Guess we’re not quite awake yet.

1,621 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..

Citizen Hamsher and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:

kaCHING!!…OK, ya got another cash deposit ta Blue America from the dwindlin’ Norske treasury, now when do we get the beer and pretzels?

And heads up to you other Blue America investors, Tim Walz down in MN 1 in southern Minnesota is gunna need TONS a cash ‘cuz he’s goin’ up against a real krypto-Nazi who is already playin’ the immigration and racism cardz. This district is a bit different from the old 1st and 2nd districts but it holds jest enough of the old 2nd District with the old German beer makin’ towns and Aryan farmers to make this a dangerous race.

KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNTITION…THEY’RE NOT DONE WITH US YET!!

Jane Hamsher @ 53

Beerfart Liberal @ 51

Thanks for the info on Hill, Jane.

Related to the prior thread, my senator had a bogus anti-SCHIP op-ed last Sunday. Wrote a LTE and called bulshit on him and got published. Really happy. First time I ever got one in. The only 2 LTEs on SCHIP have been pro.

again, NO COMPROMISE!!!

link? I wanna see!

I think this is it:
http://www.orlandosentinel.com…..6627.story

I don’t work these link things too good.

Peterr @ 22

…if the Dems learn that it is possible to stand up to Bush on this, they might actually try it on other life and death issues — like the war in Iraq. That really scares BushCo Industries, Inc.

This is really a shit or get off the pot moment for Democrats. If they can’t win this fight — with such a large majority of Americans, including Republicans with them — then they really are completely worthless.

If, however, they win this one we can hope it will be a confidence builder and lead to more action in the future.

They need to realize their 11 percent approval rating isn’t because they don’t cave to Bush enough.

Sure that seems obvious enough to anyone not poisoned by the beltway Kool-Aid, but it truly seems to be a mystery to them. Maybe this will be just the antidote they need to get hip to reality.

Beerfart Liberal @ 57

Jane Hamsher @ 53

link? I wanna see!

I think this is it:
http://www.orlandosentinel.com…..6627.story

I don’t work these link things too good.

Wow. VERY impressive op-ed.

do-si-do @ 23

Jane Hamsher @ 15

Ethridge and McIntyre are #7 and #11 respectively for top Big Tobacco campaign donations. But Bart Gordon is ahead of them both, and he voted for S-CHIP.

http://opensecrets.org/industr…..&Mem=Y

Ahhh! Very interesting–thanks for sharing that tidbit!

How’s this for an approach. If these Senators REALLY believe that the bill is bad on its merits rather than due to the fact that their tobacco contributions are influencing their votes…then they should donate all their Tobacco Contributions to Child Health Organizations to establish that they are not being influenced on those grounds.

Then they can vote against S-CHIP with clear consciences ;-) and voters will not get the awful impression that they voted against this bill because they are on the take. And willing to sacrifice the health of kids for such a few thousand in campaign contributions.

Beerfart Liberal — Great LTE — kudos!

MP @ 33

Good one! I could also see one with Big Tobacco throwing a pack of cigs in their bags!

This is a repeat of a comment I made last night, but hope no one minds me posting a repeat now. I think a handy dandy summary of basic facts regarding SCHIP veto controversy can be found at link at bottom. Summary points immediately below.

—-
For anyone interested here is a rundown of SCHIP facts. From Brad DeLong’s blog. You can follow links to source on Mankiw’s blog.

Bush administration is lying about SCHIP. Heard Pelosi today in a news clip talk about it. Glad to see she had gathered the guts to call Bush administration on its bald face lies. The news report included pathetic response from Bush administration spokesman, and the reporter concluded (correctly) that spokesman could not really answer Peolosi’s charges. So, I hope the timid Democratic leadership learns that confronting Bush administration BS head on always has big rewards.

Basically two things are going on. Bush is trying to sell a program cut as a businesslike focus on efficient program targeting core population (but, it will end up being a big program cut). Second, Bush administration is portraying policies and guidelines it has followed and approved itself for years as a wild eyed radical spendthrift commie Democratic plot. This is convenient now that the SCHIP bill that mostly follows existing guidelines is being approved in a Democratic congress. Extracts from post and link below:

SCHIP facts from Jason Furman:
–The President supports a proposal that would reduce annual spending on SCHIP relative to inflation and reduce the number of covered children and pregnant women by 840,000 according to the Congressional Budget Office (CBO)…
–The Democrats and a substantial number of Senate Republicans support a proposal whose principal focus is covering low-income children who are currently eligible (3.2 million according to CBO) plus expanding coverage modestly to new children (600,000 according to CBO). In total 85 percent of the coverage expansion is for those who are already eligible but are not getting coverage either because the funding limits…
–Although the SCHIP legislation is typically described as “costing” $35 billion, much of this sum is needed simply to maintain the current enrollment and service levels. Democrats insisted that the entire $35 billion be paid for without increasing the deficit…
–States have always enjoyed flexibility on setting their own income eligibility levels under the SCHIP program. And since 2001, the Administration has actively encouraged states to apply for waivers to use SCHIP funds for adults. All but two of the waivers covering parents or adults without children were approved by this Administration…
–About three-quarters of people covered by SCHIP are in HMOs run by private insurance companies. Moreover, the new bill expands private insurance options for SCHIP beneficiaries…
http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/…..an-of.html

I just don’t get Hill and “we would put more in than we get back” from SCHIP Look, I’m from NJ, and we always sent more to DC than we got back. And who got more than they sent? Lotsa red states. Go figger.

Beerfart Liberal @ 57

Jane Hamsher @ 53

link? I wanna see!

I think this is it:
http://www.orlandosentinel.com…..6627.story

I don’t work these link things too good.

The link works fine. Outstanding letter, congratulations!

EvilDrPuma @ 39

egregious @ 34

Why does George Bush hate sick children?

Because they aren’t fighting his war.

My point exactly! We can get this bill passed if any kid who is on the SCHIP bill is also obligated to go to Iraq to fight/occupy cuz we all know it’ll still be there when they turn 18! /s

egregious @ 34

Why does George Bush hate sick children?

because he read that book on the Great Flu Epidemic of 1918…”Don’t cough in my direction, kid”.

Great letter, BfL

Is my R senator a schmuch or what?

Beefart, Great op-ed. SNAP!

Beerfart Liberal @ 69

Is my R senator a schmuch or what?

Yes. You gave him a good pimp-slapping, though.

schmuck.

really gotta start the using spell check

Speaking of Bush Dogs, I nominate Nancy “Impeachment is off the table” Pelosi.

Let’s help Cindy Sheehan challenge and replace Nancy Pelosi! Cindy Sheehan is the best of all the candidates running for Pelosi’s seat – even if she may not run as the Democratic nominee, she is the one dedicated to peace and to the Democratic platform.

Cindy Sheehan For Congress!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJJHl0dUx8I

http://www.cindyforcongress.org
http://www.democraticunderground.com

Bob in HI

egregious @ 20

Fax numbers:

Jim Marshall 202 225 3013

Baron Hill 202 226 6866

Gene Taylor 202 225 7074

Bob Etheridge 202 225 5662

Mike McIntyre 202 225 5773

To the faxes pups!

Thanks for the fax #s. I’m swamped w/work, but making time to fax ‘em’s a no-brainer. Ditto a donation going to Blue America PAC.

Beerfart Liberal @ 64

I just don’t get Hill and “we would put more in than we get back” from SCHIP Look, I’m from NJ, and we always sent more to DC than we got back. And who got more than they sent? Lotsa red states. Go figger.

It is a totally specious argument but it gives him a fig leaf of cover which is really all he’s looking for.

Beerfart Liberal @ 72

schmuck.

really gotta start the using spell check

Yeah, sorry I mispelt yore name!

TeddySanFran @ 48

OfT: Liz Cheney and George Macaca to spin for Fred Thompson tomorrow nite at the Michigan MSNBC debate.

Bringing out the evil flying monkeys, is he? Thompson’s first real debate coming up…he’ll need a lot of “spin”. Maybe tornado levels!

OT, sorry, but I don’t know where to post this and ask a few questions, and of all the liberal blogs I’ve found, this place seems to be the friendliest.

While reading some threads at various blogs (not this one, thankfully) last night I noticed something disturbing. There is a lot of hate at many of these blogs, and while much of it is very understandable, there seems to be little tolerance for any opinion that might differ even slightly from the accepted wisdom on some threads. I find this disturbing. Someone mentioned earlier in this thread about the democratic party being a very large tent. And I agree with that. We have many people in the democratic party with a myriad of opinions. But there are major things we can and should agree on.

Now that we (dem’s) seem to be winning the war of ideas in this country, I’m noting some of the same hubris that the republicans showed (and are still showing) when they took power in the 90’s. This is disturbing to me. No matter how much we gain we cannot become a party of exclusivity. We need to maintain the inclusivity that has always been the Democratic party. I’m reminded of something Will Rogers (I think it was him) once said, “I don’t belong to an organized political party. I’m a Democrat.”

Again, I’m not criticizing anyone here. As I’ve said, this is one of the friendliest progressive sites I’ve found, and I appreciate that. I’m spouting off here because I think most folks here will, at the very least, listen to my comments and consider them.

Sorry for going on a bit, and again, sorry for being so far OT. I didn’t know where else to go. And my depression really got the best of me last night. Thanks for listening.

1,621 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..

Citizen Peterr and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:

“…if Dems learn to stand up to Bush on this, they might even try it on other life and death issues..”

And that, brother Peterr, is why they won’t get the votes in the house to override. Mrs. Clinton’s pimps in the Democratic leadership are sweatin’ bullets on this…if this gets away from the Clintonistas they know that the next defense reauthorization may jest shoot her whole campaign outta the water and then there goes Bush III and the final consolidation of friendly fascism.

By the way, has anybody seen Mrs. Pelosi lately…did Stenny and Rahm send her out ta inspect latrine hygiene at Fort Polk?

KEEP THE FAITH AND MAYBE WE KEN BEAT ‘EM THIS TIME!!

cinnamonape @ 77

TeddySanFran @ 48

OfT: Liz Cheney and George Macaca to spin for Fred Thompson tomorrow nite at the Michigan MSNBC debate.

Bringing out the evil flying monkeys, is he? Thompson’s first real debate coming up…he’ll need a lot of “spin”. Maybe tornado levels!

I’m thinking more of the accretion disk around a black hole.

When the dust clears on this, is there any way we can get a tally on this fundraiser to lobby for sick children? Or would it be impossible to break out?

Oilfieldguy @ 70

Beefart, Great op-ed. SNAP!

ditto! Congrats…

Congressman Hill,

Until recently I lived in the district you represent and I still get fundraising e-mails from your campaign. I think it’s important for Democrats to increase their majorities in congress and hold on to the seats won in 2006.

I heard you speak at the Indiana Democratic Convention with hope for a change to the disastrous course which has been charted under Bush.

However, you will NOT receive a dime from me if you persist in your disgraceful opposition to SCHIP.

I was shocked and embarrassed to learn that you voted against providing health care to children.

I pray that your conscience leads you to support an override to Bush’s veto. My current representative in Congress, Joe Donnelly, voted for the compromise bill. Please consider voting to override the veto — I think it will go a long way towards improving Congress’ 11 percent approval rating.

Liz Cheney ain’t so bad. Rumor has it that she actually enjoys it when little children nibble at her Gingerbread house.

Oilfieldguy @ 84

Liz Cheney ain’t so bad. Rumor has it that she actually enjoys it when little children nibble at her Gingerbread house.

Eeewwww!

Christy Hardin Smith @ 42

selise — Left you a response.

thanks christy, left you one too.

bottom line, i guess the answer is we do believe that immigrant children’s, even legal immigrant children’s health care is negotiable.

sad.

ADM @ 78

OT, sorry, but I don’t know where to post this and ask a few questions, and of all the liberal blogs I’ve found, this place seems to be the friendliest.

While reading some threads at various blogs (not this one, thankfully) last night I noticed something disturbing. There is a lot of hate at many of these blogs, and while much of it is very understandable, there seems to be little tolerance for any opinion that might differ even slightly from the accepted wisdom on some threads. I find this disturbing. Someone mentioned earlier in this thread about the democratic party being a very large tent. And I agree with that. We have many people in the democratic party with a myriad of opinions. But there are major things we can and should agree on.

Now that we (dem’s) seem to be winning the war of ideas in this country, I’m noting some of the same hubris that the republicans showed (and are still showing) when they took power in the 90’s. This is disturbing to me. No matter how much we gain we cannot become a party of exclusivity. We need to maintain the inclusivity that has always been the Democratic party. I’m reminded of something Will Rogers (I think it was him) once said, “I don’t belong to an organized political party. I’m a Democrat.”

Again, I’m not criticizing anyone here. As I’ve said, this is one of the friendliest progressive sites I’ve found, and I appreciate that. I’m spouting off here because I think most folks here will, at the very least, listen to my comments and consider them.

Sorry for going on a bit, and again, sorry for being so far OT. I didn’t know where else to go. And my depression really got the best of me last night. Thanks for listening.

Sadly, you get that in any crowd, but try to focus on the rational, insightful and tolerant progressives. There are more of us than there are of them.

And don’t rule out the possibility that some of the posts you see on liberal blogs could just as easily be agent provocateurs. The reich-wing knows no limits to the depths to which they’ll stoop to forward their dastardly agenda.

I hate to lower the caliber of conversation, but another one’s out of the closet and into the holding cell:

http://www.crooksandliars.com/…../#comments

selise @ 86

Christy Hardin Smith @ 42

selise — Left you a response.

thanks christy, left you one too.

bottom line, i guess the answer is we do believe that immigrant children’s, even legal immigrant children’s health care is negotiable.

sad.

You guys are doing damage to my knees, I’m having to go up and down the stairs to keep up with this :-)

selise at 86 — As I said, based on the make-up of this particular Congress and the votes therein, unfortunately, that’s where it shakes out. Which is why more and better Democrats going forward is so important.

It’s a marathon not a sprint…repeat after me…

kdh22 @ 88

I hate to lower the caliber of conversation, but another one’s out of the closet and into the holding cell:

http://www.crooksandliars.com/…../#comments

What is it with these Repugs? They’re really giving the gay movement a bad name…

Richmond @ 89

You guys are doing damage to my knees, I’m having to go up and down the stairs to keep up with this :-)

thank you so much. really needed the laugh… been feeling very bummed about the invisibility of immigrant kids in all this. actually been sitting here crying. but laughter really is the best medicine and you’re the doctor.

think i will now go try to write an LTE about the evils of ignoring immigrant children.

SufiLizard @ 87

Yes, I was aware of the possibility they were trolls, and I even commented there that it seemed the trolls had hijacked the thread. It just seemed so pervasive. And nobody else on the thread was commenting on the direction the dialogue was going. It’s just that at some point I get tired of reading “Bush sucks!” over and over again. Yes, he does suck, and has certainly done a lot of damage to this country, and needs to be tried for crimes against humanity. I just wanted to express my concern and remind folks (although most here do not need reminding) that if we want to get him tried for war crimes, we have to work together, no matter what our views are on various social topics.

Again, thanks for listening.

selise @ 86

bottom line, i guess the answer is we do believe that immigrant children’s, even legal immigrant children’s health care is negotiable.

sad.

Sorry to jump into this debate…

I don’t think you’ll find many here who disagree with you. I think, however, what we’re seeing with this SCHIP bill is a choice between a seriously flawed (and arguably racist) version of health care for children or NO healthcare for children at all.

We’ll be lucky to override Bush’s veto on the flawed SCHIP bill — it will take everything we’ve got to get the override.

If we put forth a much more comprehensive, (and moral) bill it probably wouldn’t have even made it to the president’s desk to be vetoed.

The bottom line, as I see it, is that if we can win this battle it will embolden the left and lead to better things.

Sadly, to get the change that most of us here would ultimately like to see, we have to do a LOT more work on the ground to radically change public opinion.

Getting people to do the right correct thing is not always an easy sell. But it won’t be any easier next year so we might as well get to work.

In the meantime, we ought to support as many baby steps in the right direction as we can. Without losing sight of the ultimate goal.

Beerfart Liberal @ 21

Jane:

What’s the story with Barron Hill?

I’ve read here that his office is saying that this will cost Indiana more than Indiana gets (did he make himself a Senator so he could represnet the whole state?) But that’s a new one. So far it’s been about illegals, $83,000 per families and 25 year old children. What’s the real deal with Hill?

Baron Hill also represents tobacco farmers – southern Indiana, with Kentucky, is part of another huge swath of tobacco growers. Altria (aka Philip Morris) is a major donor to Baron Hill’s campaigns.

kdh22 @ 88

I hate to lower the caliber of conversation, but another one’s out of the closet and into the holding cell:

http://www.crooksandliars.com/…../#comments

I saw that too. It is amazing is it not? At least they’re getting caught.

Limbaugh, in discussing Pelosi FoxNews appearance, suggests HRC and Pelosi have castrated Congress.

Beerfart Liberal @ 57

Jane Hamsher @ 53

link? I wanna see!

I think this is it:
http://www.orlandosentinel.com…..6627.story

I don’t work these link things too good.

Bravo!

Marie Roget @ 74

egregious @ 20

Fax numbers:

Jim Marshall 202 225 3013

Baron Hill 202 226 6866

Gene Taylor 202 225 7074

Bob Etheridge 202 225 5662

Mike McIntyre 202 225 5773

To the faxes pups!

Thanks for the fax #s. I’m swamped w/work, but making time to fax ‘em’s a no-brainer. Ditto a donation going to Blue America PAC.

As a very lazy person, I can do more if people make things really easy for me. So I figure that might work for others. Glad you are joining the fax patrol.

Christy Hardin Smith @ 90

selise at 86 — As I said, based on the make-up of this particular Congress and the votes therein, unfortunately, that’s where it shakes out. Which is why more and better Democrats going forward is so important.

It’s a marathon not a sprint…repeat after me…

do you really think that it won’t be more difficult to get coverage for immigrant children if they have to get it on their own (and not as a package with citizen children)? isn’t it more likely that by cutting them out now, they will be locked out?

that’s not a marathon… that’s leaving some kids behind.

you agree that leaving the immigrant kids out is rooted in bigotry. would you be supporting an s-chip bill that only covered white kids if that was the only bill that could get passed?

maybe we’re just going to have to disagree on this one. i don’t see how this is different from ENDA. we’re leaving behind our weakest and most vunerable.

p.s. commenting here out of respect for Richmond’s knees. 8g*

Thanks for sharing the names. I’d contact my member of congress, but living in DC, I have no voting rights and only a non-voting MC. It would be nice to win one victory against an administration that is less popular than the plague.

From the Kansas City.com editorial:

Facts didn’t matter enough to President Bush as he stood resolute and vetoed a bipartisan bill to increase funding for the Children’s Health Insurance Program. But facts should matter to members of Congress who have the power to override his veto. Consider these:

•The chronically underfunded 10-year-old SCHIP has made remarkable inroads. It has reduced by a third the uninsurance rate of low-income children whose families don’t qualify for Medicaid but can’t afford private insurance.

•President Bush contends the bill would take “a program meant to help poor children and turning it into one that covers children in households with incomes of up to $83,000 a year.” Not so, says the nonpartisan Urban Institute. The bill does allow coverage of children in some middle-income families — just as present law does. But 70 percent of children would still be from families with incomes less than $40,000, the institute said. Most of the rest would be from families with incomes less than $62,000.

President Bush’s veto should not stand. Lawmakers who voted “no” should reconsider and help override it. If they use the facts as a guide, they will.

I have a feeling Chimpy ain’t gonna win this one. He may have bitten off more than he can chew.

SufiLizard @ 94

Sorry to jump into this debate…

please! it’s an issue debate, not a personal debate…

and since i’m apparently on my own here… i guess the best thing for me to do is to get out of the way of good people trying to do something they think is a good thing.

catch you on a later thread.

Etheridge is not a member of the Blue Dogs. He is a New Democrat.

The other four are Blue Dog members.

Here’s another take from the NYTimes via AP:

Bush’s veto of the SCHIP expansion and other veto threats ring hollow because of Bush’s past support for expensive programs like the Medicare prescription drug benefit and his failure to wield his veto pen, said Bruce Bartlett, an economist who was an adviser to Ronald Reagan and a Treasury official during the elder George Bush’s presidency.

”Because he was so lax earlier in his term, he has no choice but to overcompensate,” said Bartlett. ”At the White House, they understand belatedly that they have destroyed the Republican party’s reputation for fiscal responsibility. And they are trying to play catch-up.”

The Republican party has seldom been so fragmented, as a rift expands between traditional economic conservatives and increasingly influential social conservatives.

(snip)

On the SCHIP bill veto, the division in the party is underscored by the fact that among the bill’s most ardent supporters are conservative Republican Sens. Charles Grassley of Iowa and Orrin Hatch of Utah and Georgia’s Republican Gov. Sonny Perdue.

Grassley has called Bush’s veto of the children’s health care bill ”irresponsible” and says he agrees with criticism of runaway spending during the six years when Bush was president and Republicans controlled Congress.

egregious @ 34

Why does George Bush hate sick children?

brown and poor children, more like
children without trust funds
children whose daddys aren’t fundies and RNC contributors

otherwise, I’m sure he likes children as much as anybody does… “My Pet Goat” being a case in point

shoepuker43 @ 97

Limbaugh, in discussing Pelosi FoxNews appearance, suggests HRC and Pelosi have castrated Congress.

Don’t know about HRC, but he has a point about Pelosi. I think she needs to review (and change) her game plan for the 110th Congress.

Bob in HI

selise @ 103

SufiLizard @ 94

Sorry to jump into this debate…

please! it’s an issue debate, not a personal debate…

and since i’m apparently on my own here… i guess the best thing for me to do is to get out of the way of good people trying to do something they think is a good thing.

catch you on a later thread.

Selise, You are not alone.. I wholeheartedly agree with your point of view.

selise at 100 — Did you miss the part below where I said that the hope is to loop them into the next round of legislation on this? That hopefully we’ll have more Democratic votes on the next go around to add them in?

Jeebus, I wasn’t saying poor children of legal immigrants ought to be left out. Far from it — they ought to be included and deserve decent health care. But what I want and what I can get with the Congress we have are two different things. A wish list is not a veto override and, in this case, we are trying to get what we can out of this vote because that is what we have to work with. I can’t just wave my blog wand and make things perfect, it doesn’t work that way. And to cast this as “you don’t want to help immigrant children” is both wrong and insulting, because I do. Your ire is better directed at the folks who weren’t voting for it all along — several of whom are included in the list above. You think the five DINOs listed were on board for immigrant children’s rights? Nope. You think that the GOP was? No way. There is a 14 vote margin in the House for the Dems. Five of those votes are the people above — and more than that besides that have already been pressured as aceded to flipping to get us close enough to override this veto.

The perfect can, in fact, be the enemy of the good here. And the 10 million plus kids who are already getting health care ought not be cut off entirely just to get to the perfect, much as I wish it wouldn’t even be a fight for people to do the right thing in the first place.

The push back has already begun–today:

Beginning Monday, a coalition of liberal and labor groups will start a $1 million advertising effort, with a national advertisement to run on cable channels and local advertisements aimed at specific lawmakers. The national commercial shows a series of children beginning with a baby girl and states, “George Bush just vetoed Abby.” It says Mr. Bush puts excessive war spending over health care at home.

Selise,

This is not some theoretical. This is the baby left on our doorstep. We either work to pass THIS bill now, or it goes down in flames.

I say let’s work to help several million children. Everything is not going to happen overnight for us.

is there an open italics tag, or do I just really need glasses?

Shorter selise:

“children of legal immigrants ought to be covered.”

Shorter Christy:

“Agreed. But that doesn’t seem possible at this point of the game, but may be possible in the next round.”

ADM @ 78

While reading some threads at various blogs (not this one, thankfully) last night I noticed something disturbing. There is a lot of hate at many of these blogs, and while much of it is very understandable, there seems to be little tolerance for any opinion that might differ even slightly from the accepted wisdom on some threads. I find this disturbing. Someone mentioned earlier in this thread about the democratic party being a very large tent. And I agree with that. We have many people in the democratic party with a myriad of opinions. But there are major things we can and should agree on.

And what are these? And what are not the major things that would not be acceptable?

Now that we (dem’s) seem to be winning the war of ideas in this country, I’m noting some of the same hubris that the republicans showed (and are still showing) when they took power in the 90’s. This is disturbing to me. No matter how much we gain we cannot become a party of exclusivity. We need to maintain the inclusivity that has always been the Democratic party. I’m reminded of something Will Rogers (I think it was him) once said, “I don’t belong to an organized political party. I’m a Democrat.”

I think that this website isn’t exclusively a “Democratic Party” site…it’s not owned or run by anyone other than Jane. It’s a “progressive” site. And it will tend to be critical of those in the Democratic Party that violate the principles of progressivism. Despite this I’ve heard positive comments about Ron Paul and others in the Republican Party when they stood up on certain issues.

The Progressives are not “in power”…if they were the military would be withdrawing from Iraq, habeas corpus would be again a part of our Constitution, and our country wouldn’t torture and run concentration camps like Gitmo.

I don’t really see much cause for “hubris” when I belong to a party that consistently is blocked procedurally by Republicans or have a Blue-Dog branch which evacuates from the party and supports Bush on most major issues. What is there to “crow” about?

The party leadership also seems to fear disciplining members that break away on votes, like this S-CHIP or the measure to require that troops receive adequate rest and equipment while in Iraq and have tours of restricted lengths that won’t damage their mental stability.

Progressives are gonna have to win a lot more seats in Congress before there can be any “hubris”…all we can do is applaud small victories, oftentimes in the Courts. Or revelations in the media.

Hubris is “overbearing pride evidenced by a superior manner toward inferiors”. Given that the Republicans are still in control in most institutions in this country and revel in their ability to filibuster without consequence it seems almost impossible to think that anyone could accuse them of hubris. Just who is “inferior” in the Democrat Party or the progressive movement?

I will admit that sometimes people in the party argue about facts and policies…but no one can really pull the “I’m the Decider” role in such debates. Of course a moderator may decide that someone is making a personal attack, and ask that individual to tone down their comments to avoid such. Some folks want to, as one contributor put it, “call a spade a f*cking shovel” (sic), though. That, of course, can lead to personal attacks rather than a debate about issues.

egregious @ 112

Selise,

This is not some theoretical. This is the baby left on our doorstep. We either work to pass THIS bill now, or it goes down in flames.

I say let’s work to help several million children. Everything is not going to happen overnight for us.

I don’t suppose any bill is perfect and pleases everyone but if I am starving and someone offers me a PBJ sandwich, I am not going to turn it down and say I would rather have steak. JMO

Christy Hardin Smith @ 109

selise at 100 — Did you miss the part below where I said that the hope is to loop them into the next round of legislation on this? That hopefully we’ll have more Democratic votes on the next go around to add them in?

Jeebus, I wasn’t saying poor children of legal immigrants ought to be left out. Far from it — they ought to be included and deserve decent health care. But what I want and what I can get with the Congress we have are two different things. A wish list is not a veto override and, in this case, we are trying to get what we can out of this vote because that is what we have to work with. I can’t just wave my blog wand and make things perfect, it doesn’t work that way. And to cast this as “you don’t want to help immigrant children” is both wrong and insulting, because I do. Your ire is better directed at the folks who weren’t voting for it all along — several of whom are included in the list above. You think the five DINOs listed were on board for immigrant children’s rights? Nope. You think that the GOP was? No way. There is a 14 vote margin in the House for the Dems. Five of those votes are the people above — and more than that besides that have already been pressured as aceded to flipping to get us close enough to override this veto.

The perfect can, in fact, be the enemy of the good here. And the 10 million plus kids who are already getting health care ought not be cut off entirely just to get to the perfect, much as I wish it wouldn’t even be a fight for people to do the right thing in the first place.

Well said, Christy! Politics is often like making sausage. The problem is trying to get consensus on what “the right thing” is– especially when there might be multiple “right things” that are at odds with each other.

Aloha,
Bob in HI

Biodun @ 110

The push back has already begun–today:

Beginning Monday, a coalition of liberal and labor groups will start a $1 million advertising effort, with a national advertisement to run on cable channels and local advertisements aimed at specific lawmakers. The national commercial shows a series of children beginning with a baby girl and states, “George Bush just vetoed Abby.” It says Mr. Bush puts excessive war spending over health care at home.

Any push back is great and needed because Bush is gonna push hard on this one. Has he had a veto overturned yet? I can’t remember.

Christy Hardin Smith @ 109

And to cast this as “you don’t want to help immigrant children” is both wrong and insulting, because I do.

christy – where did that come from? did i actually ever do that? i don’t think so. i disagree with you on how best to help immigrant children – not on whether you want to help them.

Jane, Howie, et. al,
You caught me on a working day, so I’m in for a pinch.

Biodun @ 113

Shorter selise:

“children of legal immigrants ought to be covered.”

Shorter Christy:

“Agreed. But that doesn’t seem possible at this point of the game, but may be possible in the next round.”

right. and i think it will be less likely next round – not more. i think leaving immigrant children out now means they stay out. would love to think differently, but no one has given me reason to.

kdh22 @ 118

Biodun @ 110

The push back has already begun–today:

Any push back is great and needed because Bush is gonna push hard on this one. Has he had a veto overturned yet? I can’t remember.

I don’t think Chimpy has had a veto overridden yet. But then he hasn’t had that many vetoes.

Selise, this bill is called a “Camel” which is a horse by committee. It is also a stepping stone, building on a good program, where in the future, folks can say, gee, how about the rest of us?

Bush and his reactionaries do not want that Camel’s head in the tent. He will like it and decide to go “all in.”

selise @ 120

Biodun @ 113

Shorter selise:

“children of legal immigrants ought to be covered.”

Shorter Christy:

“Agreed. But that doesn’t seem possible at this point of the game, but may be possible in the next round.”

right. and i think it will be less likely next round – not more. i think leaving immigrant children out now means they stay out. would love to think differently, but no one has given me reason to.

And it seems like including them now means a lot more children will not get covered.

“But then he hasn’t had that many vetoes.”

That’s right, Bio, the compliant 109th and toothless 110th have limited his number of vetos.

I doubt his ego could take an override. He’ll do whatever it takes to prevent one from happening. JMO

Shorter everyone but selise:

“if there’s insistence that children of legal immigrants be included in this bill, the whole bill goes down, and millions of children will not be covered.”

Shorter selise:

“if children of legal immigrants are not covered now, they may never be covered.”

But we can not be positive that they will never be covered.

Maybe if we can get somebody to leave a copy of My Sick Goat on the oval office desk, W will change his mind.

Biodun @ 121

kdh22 @ 118

Any push back is great and needed because Bush is gonna push hard on this one. Has he had a veto overturned yet? I can’t remember.

I don’t think Chimpy has had a veto overridden yet. But then he hasn’t had that many vetoes.

IIRC, 3 vetoes, no overrrides.

selise @ 92

Richmond @ 89

You guys are doing damage to my knees, I’m having to go up and down the stairs to keep up with this :-)

thank you so much. really needed the laugh… been feeling very bummed about the invisibility of immigrant kids in all this. actually been sitting here crying. but laughter really is the best medicine and you’re the doctor.

think i will now go try to write an LTE about the evils of ignoring immigrant children.

Include something about how contagious disease knows nada about ones legal status…and that unhealthy immigrant kids are just as likely to spread illnesses to other kids as a non-immigrant kid that doesn’t receive adequate heathcare. And epidemiologists have pointed out that the pool of carriers doesn’t have to be that large to start an epidemic of a resistant strain of bacteria/viruses.

If these diseases keep being brought up from a mutating “pool” found in an untreated population eventually a mutant strain will emerge that will be resistant to antivirals/antibiotics. That effectively minimizes the efforts made at the other levels.

Christy Hardin Smith @ 40

exile at 31 — That’s not quite right: this insurance only covers children — parents are NOT covered by it. It’s a stop-gap measure for poor families or ones on that borderline monetarily for whom private health coverage is too expensive. The coverage is solely for kids — hence the Children’s portion of the name.

Christy, if you read my comment correctly, that is what I said. However, Bu$h and his supporters try to imply that families would drop the FAMILY coverage to take advantage of the GOVERNMENT program (failing to explain why the adults suddenly don’t want coverage) – a typical ReThug/Rovian tactic, not only lie directly but lie by implication.

JF @ 123

selise @ 120

right. and i think it will be less likely next round – not more. i think leaving immigrant children out now means they stay out. would love to think differently, but no one has given me reason to.

And it seems like including them now means a lot more children will not get covered.

Agreed. With the rightard racists in congress right now, it would be a “poisoned pill.”

kdh22 @ 125:

Agreed. If Chimpy loses on this one, it will definitively begin the slow and protracted death of his presidency–till January 2009. These things are symbolic, and can be devastating. No doubt about that. Every smart Repug knows this: that if he goes down on this one, he’s taking several other Repugs down with him–the ones who voted against the bill, and the ones who will vote to sustain his veto.

kdh22 @ 124

“But then he hasn’t had that many vetoes.”

That’s right, Bio, the compliant 109th and toothless 110th have limited his number of vetos.

I doubt his ego could take an override. He’ll do whatever it takes to prevent one from happening. JMO

I think it’s the Republican filibustering (although never called such) that is mostly responsible in the current session. The Rs don’t talk about “up or down” votes anymore.

Oilfieldguy @ 130

JF @ 123

And it seems like including them now means a lot more children will not get covered.

Agreed. With the rightard racists in congress right now, it would be a “poisoned pill.”

i’m not even convinced this is true… but let’s put that aside for a minute..

would you support a bill that only covered white kids if that was the only bill the bigots in congress would vote for?

1,621 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..

Citizens selise, Hardin Smith and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:

Please don’t do this, we must be able to identify when we have reached the political moments in the policy debates and this is a “political” moment. The override of the veto creates the space for implementation of policy. If the veto of the “compromise” bill is not overridden, then immigrant children have no chance to be extended coverage in the future. In addition, this is the issue that can break the stranglehold of minority government, an override victory isolates those Republicans who defect and the only place they can find cover is in siding with the majority on popular positions such as timetables for withdrawal of troops and new military appropriations.

This is the time to be playin’ political hardball and countin’ heads and writin’ e-mails and such. And it is a time to force the Democratic leadership out into the open. We need to know who on the Democratic side are quietly underminin’ the override efforts. It is my belief that if Mrs. Clinton and those who own her politics wanted this override, there would be more’n enough votes in a heartbeat.

KEEP THE FAITH AND FOLLOW THE MONEY!!

The Republican strategy is to prevent any and all success of Democrats, thereby labeling them as “ineffective.” Most of the obstructionism takes place in the Senate via Miss McConnell and the filibusters 60 vote hurdle. The media is aiding and abetting this by using the term “Democrats failed” instead of the term “Republicans obstructed.”

If anything slips through, Dubya waits with his veto pen, which then raises the bar even higher by seven votes.

sigh

OK, I give up. The human race does not deserve to be saved. Humans have done nothing but destroy. Don’t bother replying, I will not be returning here either. I shall not be returning anywhere. There’s no point.

Maybe sombebody already made the point, but the House leadership should be making the dirty five Dems know that they need to stick with the Party on this or undergo negative consequences immediately. I called Don Young’s office and told them he needs to swing a couple of choice GOP votes toward S-CHIP. Young, Stevens and Murkowski all voted in favor of expanded fundiong. They feel enormous pressure on this, but Young needs to swing some votes. From here, it looks like they just cynically voted “yeah,” knowing all along the House votes weren’t there.

No word on further indictments as the Veco GJ winds down…

FWIW, according to this diary,

http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…..105939/723

the family who dared stand up to support SCHIP and go against the Preznit, is getting freeped.

I don’t vouch for accuracy of the linked diary, but if true, it’s certainly within their normal MO.

I think that the 5 year delay for children of legal immigrants is intended to prevent the US healthcare system for assuming liability of illnesses acquired abroad.. but that makes no sense, because it takes at least 5 years for immigrants to get naturalized in the first place, right?

shoepuker43 @ 97

Limbaugh, in discussing Pelosi FoxNews appearance, suggests HRC and Pelosi have castrated Congress.

Does that mean that Larry Craig should have been using the Ladies Room?

I guess ol’ Rushie is pining for the days when Mark Foley, Newt Gingrich, David Vitter, etc. knew what to do with their penises!

This is not at all like a white kids only bill. Congress can legitimately pass measures for the benefit of U.S. citizens.

If we wish to say that citizenship should be extended freely to anyone in the world, so that everybody is treated the same here, I would enjoy debating that ANOTHER TIME.

Let’s pass *this bill* now. Strike while this iron is hot.

not just for children. for all of us.
make it for all of us or we are doomed to become the third world

Biodun @ 110

The push back has already begun–today:

Beginning Monday, a coalition of liberal and labor groups will start a $1 million advertising effort, with a national advertisement to run on cable channels and local advertisements aimed at specific lawmakers. The national commercial shows a series of children beginning with a baby girl and states, “George Bush just vetoed Abby.” It says Mr. Bush puts excessive war spending over health care at home.

IMHO, this approach is perfect!

Tie two issues in which the overwhelming majority of Americans support “our” view together and put some money behind it.

I’d like to see a lot more of this kind of thing in the coming months leading up to ‘08.

OT — I had an acquaintance of mine, who is a staunch Democrat, stop by my office today to say hi (he was meeting with some of my co-workers later) and completely unprompted he said, “I hope thy don’t nominate Clinton. I always vote a straight Democratic ticket, but I won’t vote for her.”

I wish whoever it is that keeps supporting her in the polls would take notice of the fierce opposition to her – not just from Republicans.

ADM @ 136

sigh

OK, I give up. The human race does not deserve to be saved. Humans have done nothing but destroy. Don’t bother replying, I will not be returning here either. I shall not be returning anywhere. There’s no point.

GBCW

selise @ 134:

would you support a bill that only covered white kids if that was the only bill the bigots in congress would vote for?

Hypothetical question. And the answer is NO. Hypothetical because minority kids of citizens, black and brown, are covered by this bill.

NorskeFlamethrower @ 135

1,621 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..

Citizens selise, Hardin Smith and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:

Please don’t do this, we must be able to identify when we have reached the political moments in the policy debates and this is a “political” moment. The override of the veto creates the space for implementation of policy. If the veto of the “compromise” bill is not overridden, then immigrant children have no chance to be extended coverage in the future. In addition, this is the issue that can break the stranglehold of minority government, an override victory isolates those Republicans who defect and the only place they can find cover is in siding with the majority on popular positions such as timetables for withdrawal of troops and new military appropriations.

This is the time to be playin’ political hardball and countin’ heads and writin’ e-mails and such. And it is a time to force the Democratic leadership out into the open. We need to know who on the Democratic side are quietly underminin’ the override efforts. It is my belief that if Mrs. Clinton and those who own her politics wanted this override, there would be more’n enough votes in a heartbeat.

KEEP THE FAITH AND FOLLOW THE MONEY!!

Norske,
You’re sounding just like the Rethugs. But but but but CLINTON!

You realize that not every thing wrong in this world and even in DC or the 110th Congress can be blamed on the Clintons don’t you?

i really meant to leave the thread to those of you who think this is a good idea. hope you’re right and i’m wrong.

got sucked in by christy saying i was accusing her of not caring about immigrant children. hope it is clear – that is not the case with christy or anyone here.

can’t we disagree about the best (morally and pragmatically) policies?

and if we’re gonna negotiate away immigrant children’s access to health care, let’s not claim that our position is that children’s access to health care is non-negotiable – as though the immigrant children don’t exist.

later friends.

peace.

Selise,

I tried to stay out of it, but I can’t. You are worrying about something that may never happen (children of immigrants not ever having equal benefits). Your worry does nothing but harm you and, by association, millions of others.

And from the Bible (paraphrased): Worry doesn’t add a minute to the day.

1,621 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..

Citizen ADM:

“OK, I give up. The human race does not deserve to be saved…I will not be returning here either.”

If you honestly feel that way, then I can understand you frustration with this blogsite…I feel for ya as a human being and don’t let the door hitcha..

KEEP THE FAITH IT ALL THEY HAVEN’T STOLEN YET!!

(((((ADM)))))

Talk to us please? Several of us have experienced depression including me. What’s going on?

Beerfart Liberal @ 57

http://www.orlandosentinel.com…..6627.story

Excellent!
Superb!

thank you, Beerfart Liberal.
well done.

While Martinez trots out the standard bugaboo of “socialized medicine,” it should be noted that the SCHIP bill he voted against was supported by Republican senators such as Orrin Hatch, Ted Stevens, Christopher Bond, Lamar Alexander and others. None of these can seriously be considered a proponent of “socialized medicine.”

nice.

selise @ 120

Biodun @ 113

Shorter selise:

“children of legal immigrants ought to be covered.”

Shorter Christy:

“Agreed. But that doesn’t seem possible at this point of the game, but may be possible in the next round.”

right. and i think it will be less likely next round – not more. i think leaving immigrant children out now means they stay out. would love to think differently, but no one has given me reason to.

How could that be? If the immigrant children provision was left in the chance of overriding the veto was likely zero. It’s very close as it is.

Next time ’round there will definitely be more Democrats in Congress, and perhaps a Democratic President that would not veto such a minor increase in the coverage levels. At that point you will need only a majority to pass through the extension…NOT a super “veto-proof majority”.

There are imminently rational public health reasons to cover ALL children in the US…the problem is that enough “irrationals” exist in Congress (and the Presidency) to block such reasonable legislation. All they need is 33% of EITHER the House or Senate to shut the program down with a veto.

In addition, the kids of immigrants should be covered since their parents are paying the same taxes that will pay for this supplement. In fact, immigrants are (sadly) disproportionately more likely to pay tobacco taxes.

1,621 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..

Citizen Dakine01:

“You realize that not everything in this world or even in DC or the 110th Congress can be blamed on the Clintons don’t you?”

Oh puLEEZE…I DO know that everythin’ wrong in DC and the 110th Congress CAN be blamed on those who own the Clintons and their politics.

KEEP THE FAITH AND FOLLOW THE MONEY, NOT ALL FASCISTS CALL THEMSELVES REPUBLICANS!!

Phoenix Woman has a new thread:

In Case You Needed Another Example To Show Why Privatization Sucks

ADM @ 78

[snip] …
Sorry for going on a bit, and again, sorry for being so far OT. I didn’t know where else to go. And my depression really got the best of me last night. Thanks for listening.

fellow depression sufferer here:
this place has been instrumental in my recovery.
as a comrade-in-arms in the struggle with depression, keep in touch!

and keep talking.

selise @ 133

would you support a bill that only covered white kids if that was the only bill the bigots in congress would vote for?

But this bill doesn’t ONLY COVER White kids. The kids it covers are indeed Non-Immigrant Poor and Lower Middle Class Kids…and those are gonna be a group that includes Blacks, Hispanics, South Asians, Native Americans, Asians as well as poor and lower Middle Class white kids.

Why sacrifice the health of THESE kids for two years while insisting that a “perfect” bill be passed? And why would that be a “perfect bill” – when it wouldn’t cover Adults (for those seeking Universal Health Care).

And I would find it incredible to think that any “progressive” wouldn’t support this bill…it’s failure would be a MASSIVE DEFEAT for the Democrats and a MASSIVE VICTORY for Bush and the “racists”. Selise, just who oppose this Bill right now, I ask. These people are NOT your allies, are they? Think about it!

ADM @ 136

sigh

OK, I give up. The human race does not deserve to be saved. Humans have done nothing but destroy. Don’t bother replying, I will not be returning here either. I shall not be returning anywhere. There’s no point.

Jeesh! From being all “we all have to get along and be inclusive” you’ve gone to “The human race doesn’t deserved to be saved”!

And just who ARE YOU to save mankind? Have I somehow snubbed the Messiah? If so, I really DO apologize.

Or maybe you are just that pathetic robot from “Hitchhiker’s Guide To The Universe”?

egregious @ 150

(((((ADM)))))

Talk to us please? Several of us have experienced depression including me. What’s going on?

egregious,
There’s a lot going on. Depression is not like paranoia, which depends on whether or not people really are out to “get” you (or whatever). Depression can be situational– or not. Theresa O’Nell (not O’Neil!) wrote an interesting study, Disciplined Hearts, about an American Indian community in the Great Plains, and in that community depression was the norm, rather than abnormal. Their attitude in such circumstances was remarkable: in their opinion, one became a real mensch (sorry to mix metaphors, but O’Nell does) until one learns how to deal with depression! Maybe this is parallel to Viktor Frankl’s foundational experience in a concentration camp.

In other words, the world can be a depressing place to live– but we can’t let that rule our lives! Maybe the serenity prayer helps, too.

Bob in HI

Blub @ 139

I think that the 5 year delay for children of legal immigrants is intended to prevent the US healthcare system for assuming liability of illnesses acquired abroad.. but that makes no sense, because it takes at least 5 years for immigrants to get naturalized in the first place, right?

On Public Health grounds this simply is utterly irrational. Kids like this are precisely the ones that need to be covered….because those diseases “acquired abroad” are the ones that need to be diagnosed and treated early before these kids start interacting with other kids and adults.

That’s a recipe for an epidemic! And it’s why this “exception” needs to be dealt with as soon as a new, more rational President, and a larger, more rational majority in Congress comes in, in 2008!

Cinnamonape, I can only conclude you have never experienced depression first hand. Pretty hurtful reply to a fellow fdl commenter.

cinnamonape @ 156

selise @ 133

would you support a bill that only covered white kids if that was the only bill the bigots in congress would vote for?

The part above should have been attributed to selise…Memo To Self “Preview is Your Friend”!

****************

But this bill doesn’t ONLY COVER White kids. The kids it covers are indeed Non-Immigrant Poor and Lower Middle Class Kids…and those are gonna be a group that includes Blacks, Hispanics, South Asians, Native Americans, Asians as well as poor and lower Middle Class white kids.

Why sacrifice the health of THESE kids for two years while insisting that a “perfect” bill be passed? And why would that be a “perfect bill” – when it wouldn’t cover Adults (for those seeking Universal Health Care).

And I would find it incredible to think that any “progressive” wouldn’t support this bill…it’s failure would be a MASSIVE DEFEAT for the Democrats and a MASSIVE VICTORY for Bush and the “racists”. Selise, just who oppose this Bill right now, I ask. These people are NOT your allies, are they? Think about it!

egregious @ 160

Cinnamonape, I can only conclude you have never experienced depression first hand. Pretty hurtful reply to a fellow fdl commenter.

I was thrown by the persons dramatic shift of tone…from saying how they read this blog and how great it was – if only it were more “inclusive”…and a bit less “Bush-bashing”…then, boom, cutting off all dialogue and saying humanity doesn’t deserved to be saved.

Was that because of the spirited debate on the provisions of the S-CHIP bill? Or because I asked the commentor about what they meant by “hubris” and “inclusiveness”?

It seems that this isn’t characteristic of the depression that runs in my family.Usually there is some engagement that provides a hint of such depression (anger, frustration) before they shut down.Perhaps that is because I clue in to the pattern a bit better with intimates. But if the person does have depression I certainly apologize…I especially apologize about my response to the persons statement about people not deserving to be saved.

I guess I found it “full of hubris and reacted poorly…like I would to a Fundamentalist Baptist preacher who tells me that the world deserves to burn in hell. I don’t respond well to people who express misanthropic views, admittedly. I get “snarky” and sarcastic. Of course, these folks are likely mentally ill, as well.

I must remind myself I should be a bit more sympathetic to people who express hateful positions and undertake hurtful acts. They might have a mental illness.

aside from the obvious positives overriding the veto, imagine the shot chimpy’s ego will take?

Cinnamonape—

I was thrown by the persons dramatic shift of tone

In addition to depression I have mania and mood swings. A dramatic shift of tone could reflect emotional ups and downs that for some of us occur with alarming frequency. I have struggled for years to dampen these oscillations in my own life and have profound respect for people who haven’t yet found the right combination of things to handle their moods.

It’s easy to hit the submit button here in haste, done it many a time myself, and I thank you for coming back and expressing your compassion for our fellow commenter.

egregious @ 34

Why does George Bush hate sick children?

Because he’s envious that they’re smarter than him.

BrianK @ 95

Beerfart Liberal @ 21

What’s the story with Barron Hill?
…

Baron Hill also represents tobacco farmers – southern Indiana, with Kentucky, is part of another huge swath of tobacco growers. Altria (aka Philip Morris) is a major donor to Baron Hill’s campaigns.

Another great example of corporate power overriding human needs.

This kind of power imbalance is literally killing people. How could ANY person take money from corporations and do their bidding, knowing little kids would be hurt by it?

NorskeFlamethrower @ 153

“You realize that not everything in this world or even in DC or the 110th Congress can be blamed on the Clintons don’t you?”

Oh puLEEZE…I DO know that everythin’ wrong in DC and the 110th Congress CAN be blamed on those who own the Clintons and their politics.

KEEP THE FAITH AND FOLLOW THE MONEY, NOT ALL FASCISTS CALL THEMSELVES REPUBLICANS!!

Care to name any names or even industries?

cinnamonape @ 159

Blub @ 139

I think that the 5 year delay for children of legal immigrants is intended to prevent the US healthcare system for assuming liability of illnesses acquired abroad.. but that makes no sense, because it takes at least 5 years for immigrants to get naturalized in the first place, right?

On Public Health grounds this simply is utterly irrational. Kids like this are precisely the ones that need to be covered….because those diseases “acquired abroad” are the ones that need to be diagnosed and treated early before these kids start interacting with other kids and adults.

That’s a recipe for an epidemic! And it’s why this “exception” needs to be dealt with as soon as a new, more rational President, and a larger, more rational majority in Congress comes in, in 2008!

Fantastic argument for child health care for anyone in America!

Care for children or they might spread disease to Republicans!

Pres. Bush doesn’t want SCHIP…apparently doesn’t care if Republicans all die from disease spread by children!