That said, I am going to quote PJ O’Rourke (gasp)- not THE PJ O’R, Libertarian Supremo – Yes, the same.

After WW2, Germany should have made reparations by giving the Jewish people Bavaria for their homeland and leaving Jerusalem as an International Holy City.The Bavarians would have had to accept it as wartime repayment and the Jewish people would have had fertile, industrialised land for their own.I (Jewish South African) like it.

It’s clear that Bishop Tutu didn’t (quite) compare Israelis to Hitler. So I wouldn’t say it qualifies as hate speech. However, the claim that Israel is on a par with the kinds of genocidal and racists he lists is slanderous enough for me to doubt his judgment in this matter.

This parsing of words isn’t at all helpful.

If he wasn’t “(quite)” saying it, then why do you say he was putting Israel “on a par”. Either he was or he wasn’t.

No, this parsing of words isn’t helpful at all.

More generally you are again being obtuse.

Lovely way to converse to kill a conversation.

Comparisons with Hitler, calling people Nazis, etc., isn’t necessarily hate speech. Calling Israel or Israelis Hitler, Nazis, etc., is.

Why doesn’t one standard of logic doesn’t fit all?

Because it is specifically aimed at and intended to wound Jews on account of their history.

Maybe it stands out more clearly to others that Israel is replaying their experience with the Nazis, except they have reversed roles.

Or, maybe they’ve always had these qualities of character, having been raised in the European environment where they were surrounded by less genteel barbarians.

Either way the suggestion the Israeli Jews are acting that way might, to the speaker, mean only that they see similarities in these highly notable groups. Why would it have to imply anything specific about the Jews and their ‘history’? Not everybody who makes note of the recent Jewish behavior even knows of the Jewish history.

The outraged sensitivity Israelis sometimes display strikes outsiders as strange and even dangerously unbalanced. If Jews can’t see it themselves it’s probably because they’ve isolated themselves so much that their group-think or world-view has become highly divergent from Western Civilization.

…

The right is horribly hypocritical about all sorts of things. But that doesn’t mean you should be disingenuous or deliberately obtuse about what would or would not be an anti-Semitic statement, as you are being here.

Nice…finish off with some slander to engender good will. Riiiight!

You are being passive aggressive — attack while claiming victimhood.

It certainly isn’t healthy.

Dad made some scrambled eggs with cheese one time. I ate ‘em but decidedly disliked ‘em so that set the pattern.
(snip)

Iudovic Lalanne in Curiosités Bibliographiques (1857), writes:

Sagittarius, savant allemand, publia, vers 1615, un traité d’une haute importance, à en juger par le titre : Quid fiat quod multi abhorreant ab esu casei ? Un savant hollandais, Martin Schoockius, trouvant que la matière n’était pas encore épuisée, publia, en 1665 : Tractatus
de aversione casei. Il est juste de dire que ce sujet était pour lui un sujet éminemment national. Car les Hollandais, ces marchands de fromages, comme les appelait la Fontaine, avaient un vif intérêt à connaître, afin de les combattre, les mauvaises raisons qui pouvaient empêcher les hommes de manger du fromage en général, et en particulier du fromage de Hollande.

BTW, I have written a sharp letter of protest to the president of St Thomas, and I recommend that you do the same…

Maybe I’m getting too abstract, but I am so interested these days in the group mind of FDL….

There’s such a fine line between free speech and free spew—I’m just mulling out loud here about how the group can be creative and open and diverse and passionate–but also–respectful of one another.

… and I am wondering how this fascinating lake might do that.

I think it arises from a strong foundation, from family values to quote someone.

Governance in the family is usually backed by love and if you carry that over to the common, then we should all do well. But, if someone is weak and embarrassed and pissed off (Dubya, for example), then they would probably want to protect themselves by controlling too much.

Governance should be a firm hand, not a slap or punch or grip on the neck. Governance can be a yellow line you don’t cross for your own safety, but shouldn’t be a concrete wall topped with barbed wire. Governance is NOT control, it’s the lines you don’t cross for everyone’s sake.

Bush & Co have crossed the line in some major ways. Lying about war is a very big no no. It’s abrogating to themselves Powers which should properly reside in the hands of the public. Instead of catching nukes they got rid of Valerie Plame and the network of nuke watchers she headed. That’s a big no no. Without consulting with anyone Bush & Co destroyed something others had put in place. They took power into their own hands inappropriately.

They want to control and steal (power, money, etc.) and not govern (which requires consultation with many people).

Here at the “lake” the moderators simply remind people to use their library voices, be civil, use one nickname and keep the lines painted so we know where it’s safe to go. Only in extreme cases do they have to use ‘force’.

Thanks Jane for giving us this place to chat.

It’s clear that Bishop Tutu didn’t (quite) compare Israelis to Hitler. So I wouldn’t say it qualifies as hate speech. However, the claim that Israel is on a par with the kinds of genocidal and racists he lists is slanderous enough for me to doubt his judgment in this matter….Comparisons with Hitler, calling people Nazis, etc., isn’t necessarily hate speech. Calling Israel or Israelis Hitler, Nazis, etc., is. Because it is specifically aimed at and intended to wound Jews on account of their history.

Or it could be an effort to reach into their own history and get them to REFLECT on the similarities of the ACTS. Tutu has consistently pointed out that he abhors specific ACTS by the Israeli GOVERNMENT.

That includes the collective punishments used by Israel against the Palestinians, in general, or families of suspected terrorists, in particular.

Or the sealing off of entire communities, blocking resources and travel inside or out.

That includes the creation of apartheid-like “Bantustans” (and BigMitch should look at the rationales the apartheid government made about creating these entities…which included “security”, the right to determine their own borders, and the need to exclude others from citizenry in the state to preserve their “vision”). These rationales are also made by other despotic regimes.

When Carter or Tutu (who should know something about how the South Africa system operated) point out the similarities of these acts to apartheid they are vilified as well…it’s not only drawing parallels to how the early days when the Nazis began to persecute the Jews (and others they opposed. Any parallel to any regime will draw out these “how dare you!” attacks.

Dear St Thomas Webmaster:

First of all it is both ironic as well as pathetic that your board of directors and president hides behind a webmaster instead of allowing themselves to be reached by email. It is no mistake your bosses and all the executives and even your president have told you to not put their email addresses on the St Thomas website. As an IT person myself I know I am writing to the one person who has little power but is expected to be diplomat, technical genius, and business executive, even though you do not get paid for it nor do you get any credit ~ just all the blame. I apologize for writing to you, but your bosses insist on hiding behind you instead of allowing themselves to be directly contacted. You deserve a raise! Please pass this email on to your bosses and tell them you are just the messenger and for once not to blame you for their own fearful behavior that is very unbecoming to people who are supposed to be leaders, not hide in their offices and let a webmaster take their email.

Open Letter to St Thomas Executives and President:

I am writing because I am shocked that you are not allowing an Desmond Tutu, an Archbishop, a Nobel prize winner, a man revered by millions of Catholics and non-Catholics alike, to speak at your school, yet you seem to think it is more than fine to hire Ann Coulter to speak who is a hate-filled war monger and someone who makes many sensible people shudder in disgust at her racist, elitist and hate filled comments. What hardships has this woman ever endured compared to what Desmond Tutu endured ~ less pay from you than from the laughable Fox “news” network and any corporate welfare queen where she prostitutes herself? Do you actually believe that Archbishop Tutu is LESS qualified, a man who endured apartheid, who has traveled the world over to speak out against any injustice imposed upon people who have no power and who are victims of corporate, elitist and racist deeds, should not speak at your university because he had the audacity to speak for the Palestinian people, many who WERE Christian until they fled their homeland and others who have endured years of poverty and discrimination in their own land???

Really I have to ask you to look in your corporate welfare blinded hearts and ask, “Who would Jesus choose?”

VERY sincerely,

Catherine Sullivan
Address and phone included.

I wish these people in the third category would stop and think once in a while about what they are doing; not just about how cruel it all is, but how odd and counter-productive. I mean… what ever happened to winning friends and influencing people? How does silencing, slandering, demoting, or firing anybody who wants to have an intelligent conversation about this subject represent an effective long term strategy?

is your comment directed to me or someone else?

More generally you are again being obtuse. Comparisons with Hitler, calling people Nazis, etc., isn’t necessarily hate speech. Calling Israel or Israelis Hitler, Nazis, etc., is. Because it is specifically aimed at and intended to wound Jews on account of their history.

Tutu’s point about the possible meanings of anti-Semitism are a standard bit of nonsense by the way. The fact that Jews, Arabs, and others are all Semites is beside the point. The term is an English term and it’s meaning in English is related to Jews, not Semites generally.

And while Coulter is a loathsome person and has said horrifically racist things, her ridiculous quote above, again, doesn’t fall into the same category.

The right is horribly hypocritical about all sorts of things. But that doesn’t mean you should be disingenuous or deliberately obtuse about what would or would not be an anti-Semitic statement, as you are being here.