Glenn Greenwald has been doing a superb job of documenting how cries of “anti-semitism” are used by the right to silence liberal foreign policy critics, and how the regular use of Nazi and Hilter comparisons on the right (a nightly event on Fox news) is met with a deafening silence:
Innuendo and, increasingly, explicit claims of anti-semitism have become political weapons of the war-hungry Right in all sorts of foreign policy debates, most frequently now with regard to Iran. That is the real goal of constantly labelling liberal blogs and anti-war groups as Nazis, Hitler, Brownshirts, Gestapo troops, etc. Groups such as the ADL which claim to be devoted to opposing such tactics seem extremely reluctant — to put it generously — to condemn these tactics when used by those expressing unrelated political views that they seem to embrace (such as a hard-line against Iran). If they really believe in their ostensible principles, they ought to apply them equally.
This was the “comparison” that got Desmond Tutu banned from speaking at St. Thomas University in Saint Paul, Minnesota:
But you know, as well as I do that somehow the Israeli government is placed on a pedestal where to criticize them is immediately to be dubbed anti-Semitic. As if the Palestinians were not Semitic. (applause) I, I have not been even anti-white despite all the suffering that that crazy group inflicted on our people. NO! How could I be – if I wasn’t even anti those who did that to us – be anti-Jew? Because that is actually the term that ought to be used. Are you anti-Jewish? Not anti-Semitic. And then, you would have to say the same thing to the biblical prophets – because they were some of the most scathing critics of the Jewish leadership of their day. We don’t criticize Jewish people. We criticize, we will criticize, when they need to be criticized the government of Israel.
They said the same to us, I mean when we said to them: Can you explain to us how it comes about that you can collaborate with the Apartheid government on security matters, how you could prolong our oppression. And they would say you’re being anti-Semitic. I said: “tough luck. Really tough luck.” And when we raise similar questions about the treatment of Palestinians when we were visiting the Holy Land in the time that Cannon Ateek was speaking of, they put up, they painted graffiti just outside St, George Cathedral in Jerusalem: ‘Tutu is a black Nazi Pig.’ We come from there.
People are scared in this country to say wrong is wrong. (applause) Because the Jewish lobby is powerful – very powerful. Ha, Ha, Ha ha! So what? So what! This is God’s world! For goodness sake this is God’s world! The Apartheid government was very powerful, but we said to them: Watch it! If you flout the laws of this universe, you’re going to bite the dust! (applause) Hitler was powerful. Mussolini was powerful. Stalin was powerful. Idi Amin was powerful. Pinochet was powerful. The Apartheid government were powerful. Milosevic was powerful. But, this is God’s world. A lie, injustice, oppression, those will never prevail in the world of this God. That is what we told our people. And we used to say: those ones, they have already lost, they are, they are going to bite the dust one day. We may not be around. An unjust Israeli government, however, powerful will fall in the world of this kind of God. Because we don’t want for that to happen but those who are powerful have to remember the litmus test that God gives to the powerful – what is your treatment of the poor, the hungry? What is your treatment of the vulnerable, the voiceless? And on the basis of that, God passes God’s judgment.
Now compare that to what Ann Coulter said in 2003:
“In addition to having a number of family deaths among them, the Democrats’ other big idea — too nuanced for a bumper sticker — is that many of them have Jewish ancestry. There’s Joe Lieberman: Always Jewish. Wesley Clark: Found Out His Father Was Jewish in College. John Kerry: Jewish Since He Began Presidential Fund-Raising. Howard Dean: Married to a Jew. Al Sharpton: Circumcised. Even Hillary Clinton claimed to have unearthed some evidence that she was a Jew — along with the long lost evidence that she was a Yankees fan. And that, boys and girls, is how the Jews survived thousands of years of persecution: by being susceptible to pandering …”
Yet as Phoenix Woman notes, Coulter was allowed to speak at St. Thomas in 2005, where she seems to have offended just about everyone (part of a trend).
Where, exactly, was the outrage then?
Update: Phoenix Woman, from the comments:
If that’s true — and pardon me if I find that a touch difficult to believe — then he must have personally approved the definitely anti-Semitic Ann Coulter, eh?
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Jane!
Jane!
I am Jewish and the ADL (under its current leadership) does not speak for me.
From the penultimate link (just about everyone)in the post above:
Then why the f*ck was she invited to speak there then?
I always thought that Coulter was a parody act, like Steven Colbert.
But, Jane,
you say above,
Glenn Greenwald has been doing a superb job of documenting how cries of “anti-semitism” are used by the right to silence liberal foreign policy critics
then, how come people who Frequent The Lake have used this situation to call people here who don’t march foot for foot with every comment they have as being Anti-Semite?
Kind of a rhetorical question, but kind of calling some folks out query.
I don’t think I’m the only one who came away from (even just reading and not getting into the braw from) the other night feeling bruised and confused.
Which night, demi?
Well, Desmond Tutu was bereft of a black cocktail dress with which to weave his alluring wickedness, you see.
;>)
Loo Hoo. @ 7
Thursday evening, I believe. It was an over 4 hour broo ha ha.
Lots of stuff was said and the next morning, I wondered that if it had been a fist fight, the next morning alot of headaches would dull the remembrance of what was said. And, there’d be a lot of broken chairs and glass. But, I fear that some folks sometimes forget that this is the internet and not only open to All, that it is saved in the archives.
And people here wonder why people in Congress can’t work together.
I’m not sorry you missed it.
darkblack @ 8
Ah so that’s the drill – it’s not IOKIYAR, but IOKIYWALBD (It’s OK if you wear a little black dress).
demi @ 9
No that was not a happy evening.
Hi there demi…*g*
Yep, but Fern, I still have the link you gave me for Karen Armstrong’s book. And, for that I am grateful.
Like they say, You gotta take the bad with the good.
I would however, remind people that his is a public forum and what you say is being recorded.
(reminding myself, too, of course.)
dakine01 @ 10
The power of this stratagem cannot be overestimated. Continents won and lost, great empires destabilized and lost to the dust of antiquity, literary works
remaindered, er, sold…;>)
Biodun @ 12
*g*ing back. Big Time.
Ok, I’ve been sleeping, who and what dared to call Tutu an anti- Semite?
What kind knuckle dragging, mouth breathing, cousin fucking idiot came up with that line of pure bullshit?
If slamming the Israeli administration is anti Jewish then fully half the population of that country is anti Jewish!!!
What a tub of tepid pus!
on a lighter note, don’t miss Larry Craig’s recipe for a potato/hot dog encounter:
Wash and dry potato. Rub with shortening or butter. With an apple corer or small knife, core out the potato center (end to end). Push hot dog through the center. Bake until potato is cooked through.
For Patterico to be openly offended by a fellow Con tells you just how offensive Ann Coulter is. And kudos to him for noting her bizarre reference to Monica Lewinsky’s being Jewish.
demi @ 6
I don’t endorse every comment made here. If I did it would be a pretty stale conversation.
demi @ 13
I was just thinking similarly – off in a little corner, there was a lovely conversation about Israel, history, and biblical scholarship. So go figure.
darkblack @ 14
And with your generous contribution of $5, we’ll give a free copy of Ann’s latest
diatribebook! Whichever one we have left.punaise @ 17
And to reiterate Kirk Murphy’s beaut of a pun: His own private’s Idaho. !!!
Dear Jane
You are a brave, brave woman. This business of getting called an anti-Semite (have you noticed some at GG have resorted to accusing Glenn and other commenters of Blood Libel and of wanting to incinerate Jews in their Synagogues whenever I/P comes up?)when you criticize the policies of a country and it’s enabling lobby has really got to stop.
I too find the need increasingly to say this. I am a Jew and neither the ADL nor AIPAC speak for me. Criticism of Israel is not ipso facto anti-Jewish. When the government of Israel acts in an unjust manner, such as occupying the West Bank, we must speak out. We must not be indifferent to Palestinian suffering. And Jews have to call out this strategy of the Right or before we know it to oppose war with Iran will be labelled anti-semitism.
allan_in_upstate @ 3
Jane,
Not putting it on you at all.
Not only a stale conversation, but a Moot Point.
Met your friend Howie in Montrose the other night. Really nice guy. See why you like him.
(hearts and hugs.)
The fur usually flies at FDL whenever there’s a discussion around the loose group of organizations and individuals that lobby on behalf of the Israeli government.
And even though I wasn’t at that thread Thursday night (I never visit the Lake at night–too many things going on with me), I can imagine how nasty it must have been.
Laura Doty @ 22
it’s pota-toe tappin’ good!
I think a lot has to do with the lack of a strong opposition party, that lacks a strong communication plan and strong voices.
The Democrats except for a very few don’t act like an opposition party. They cave, capitulate and allow this to happen.
And with your generous contribution of $5, we’ll give a free copy of Ann’s latest diatribe book! Whichever one we have left.
I’ll give you $5 not to.
I agree with Tutu, and have so for years.
The settlers are colonists, so call them that.
If they steal somebody’s land in the name of God, is it anti-semitic to say that that is wrong?
If the worst of the settler – colonists call Palestinians “sub-human dogs”, are they being like the Hitler they suffered under?
Fair is fair, let the hypocritical chips fall where they may.
demi @ 24
Howie rocks.
There’s a line between strong disagreements and causing personal pain. Do you who were there at the time (I read the thread later) have a sense of what it was that made this a bruising situation, rather than a heavy conversation?
Biodun @ 25
at least it wasn’t the same night we had to talk TRex off the virtual ledge because he’d run into his ex and new mate at the supermarket.
punaise @ 17
Seems to me the dog would be done long before the potato. But what a perfect favorite recipe!
Loo Hoo I think it was ET in Eli’s post last night that linked to photos of the recipe. Even funnier in the flesh, if I may use the expression.
Laura Doty @ 31
Intransigence. Sloppy argument. Name calling. Lack of self reflection. Enjoying conflict. Factual inaccuracy. Defensiveness. Blind adherence to religious tradition. Martyrdom complexes. White liberal guilt.
The usual.
Was it the TRex late night thread on Thursday? Now I’m curious, but I see there were 430 comments so I don’t want to start reading the wrong thread. Plus I don’t want to look at the ugliest woman in hte world if I don’t have to…
Fern @ 35
That sounds about right. I just watched that one in horror, having made a quite deliberate decision to not get in the middle of that train-wreck.
Fern @ 35
Once you are called anti-semitic, all rational conversation ceases because you cannot prove that you are not. I reserve the right to criticize any gov’t at any time – including and especially my own.
Loo Hoo. @ 36
I think there were a couple of threads like that.
By the way, Father Dease of UST is now saying that he wasn’t consulted when Bishop Tutu was invited to speak at UST, thus implying that he’s the guy who signs off on each and every guest speaker invited to St. Thomas.
If that’s true — and pardon me if I find that a touch difficult to believe — then he must have personally approved the definitely anti-Semitic Ann Coulter, eh?
Laura Doty @ 32
Perhaps we should get an legal opinion from John Yoo and David Addington on this.
LH: It was the one just prior to TRex. I remember Suzanne saying at the time she was glad he’d come on as the natives were getting restless. I read it just because people sounded bruised and relieved to leave the thread. Noticed that some folks didn’t follow up and wondered what was going on.
The US urged Isreal to be cautious when they bombed Syria on Sept. 6th.
allan_in_upstate @ 41
Strong disagreements are for pussies. Causing personal pain is what real Americans do.
Love,
John Yoo
David Addington
RIYADH – Saudi King Abdullah opened the annual summit of Gulf leaders on Saturday with a warning that the Arab world was like a powder keg waiting to explode, citing the situation in the Palestinian territories, Iraq and Lebanon.
http://www.middle-east-online……/?id=18688
OT: Lynne Cheney’s memoir of her childhood — and Dick’s — is being released this week. But she is still keeping busy:
Is the book or the Constitution “almost finished?” It’s a cleverly-placed modifier.
Phoenix Woman @ 40
Yup, that about sums it up. The weasel. I knew there was something wrong with that mush-mouthed letter, but couldn’t quite figure it out.
allan_in_upstate @ 42
Depends on who the pain and suffering is for. As we know they were against it before they were for it before they were against it.
Or something like that anyway.
TSF_46
Lynne’s book about the Constitution will be finished once they finish destroying the original one. This way the book for kids will be pure propoganda about the new one.
Oh, and while UST professor and (now former) Justice and Peace Studies Chair Cris Toffolo did manage to scramble around and find another venue for Bishop Tutu, it’s at Metropolitan State University — which is rather like losing your Harvard gig and having to go to the local ag school instead.
dakine01 @ 48
I’m opposed to water-blogging.
IRC, it started earlier. Some folks went on to Late Nite with TREX and didn’t take it with. But, people were like a dog on a bone and took that threat late into the night.
Suffice to say, what Fern said describes it very well.
Laura…in addition to what Fern said, I didn’t see much discussion at all, not about the issue. It was mainly personal and defensive. Which happens sometimes. Ah, humans.
Shorter Right: “Sure glad I’m not…
a)Jewish.
b)Black.
c)Irish.
d)White.
e)Muslim.
f)Brown.
g)Yellow.
h)Catholic.
i)Orange.
j)Protestant.
k)Green.
l)Blue.
m)Purple with Pink Polka Dots.
Do ya’ ever notice how long the Right’s list is gettin’ to be?
Shouldn’t be too long now before everybody is on their “don’t wanna be” list.
punaise @ 17
Thanks for re-posting this! I missed the Craig thread yesterday, and damn, that’s funny!
Mad Dogs @ 53
Hey – some of my favourite colours are on that list!
punaise @ 52
Yeah, it plays hell on the keyboard.
I strongly believe that how we conduct ourselves in the world–for good or ill–has a ripple effect beyond what we can ever know (or measure). Solving conflicts or at least learning how to live in peace–happens both at the micro as well as the macro level, and working through issues, even here in cyberspace helps push the ripples out.
Do you all have ideas about what might have helped bring the conversation back to a level where folks could engage in colloquy?
What’s for dinner, dakine?
Millineryman @ 49
I guess she won’t have to worry about “dumbing it down,” considering that her understanding of the Constitution is no better than a five-year-old’s.
Loo Hoo. @ 59
Not sure. Prol’ly a new york strip, some sauteed oan-yoans, corn on the cob, and cantalope chunks
punaise @ 52
It’s hard to avoid at the moment.
Laura Doty @ 57
It’s unlikely any time soon. Especially when people use trigger words (on both sides of the argument) and see it as their mission to set the other guys straight.
Laura Doty @ 57
Honestly, and I am pretty good people person most of the time, I don’t think anything short of shutting it down could have helped. Some people tried….but it was too heated. Some issues are beyond immediate resolution. Especially in a public forum.
Just my take on it.
dakine01 @ 60
I was just gonna ask what oan-yoans were – duh.
How is the right being inconsistent?
They’re hypocritical.
They’re racist.
They’re intolerant?
They’re pretty consistent from where I’m sitting.
Loo Hoo. @ 58
Hey, hon. I even offered up my favorite comfort food, mac ‘n cheese during the, er, um kerfuffle.
Food usually helps. :)
A FWIW rant, a little off topic, St. Thomas is a Roman Catholic University, under the control of the Vatican. It’s fine if a Roman Catholic wants a divorce. If they want to remarry, however, under current RC canon law, they are banned from the sacraments. As Rudi Giuliani knows, the only exception to this is a very expensive annulment. Those seeking an annulment have to admit they were just plain nuts and lied about their ability to provide “consent.” In a theological sense, this gets the institutional RC church off the hook for it’s part in “blessing” the union. It also effectively makes the off spring born out of wedlock. This has been a terrific fund-raising tool for the Catholic Church. Fund raising has been desperately needed, because if a RC priest has sex with someone underage, the Bishops and Cardinals suddenly remember the Xtian teachings about FORGIVENESS and MERCY. “Father had a drinking problem,” or he was seduced by the underage victim. Meanwhile Father’s ability to preside over the sacraments goes unquestioned, unless for some reason, the story goes public. Insurance companies won’t insure dioceses any more, because the institutional Church routinely moved these serial predators from parish to parish.
As far as Civil Rights is concerned, the Vatican was officially neutral during the US Civil War. That’s why you find the Irish fighting and dying for both sides. Roman Catholic slave owners, (New Orleans for example) were an especially important funding source.
Moving ahead seventy-years, Pius XII, pope from 1939 – 1958 did everything he could to prevent Churchill and FDR from obtaining evidence of the concentration camps and later the Holocaust. Papist apologists harp on his silence over the murder of a million Roman Catholic Poles as evidence that his silence over the murder of six-million semitic peoples, proved he was not anti-semitic.
Today, against reason, the scriptures and the Xtian tradition, the pope continues to reserve ministerial responsibilities to only one gender. Pope will canonize both genders as “saints,” but that gender cannot be trusted with ANY institutional authority. Again contrary to the scriptures and the tradition, the pope demands mandatory celibacy. And Roman Catholics wonder why there is a priest shortage. Sub human and science contradicting papal teaching about reproductive rights have been well covered at FDL.
End rant.
This is interesting Folks: The Dems may have been outfoxed on the war issue. When they had a chance to cut funding and save face with voters they did not do it.
US troops could start Iraq pull out by Easter: Iraqi official.
WASHINGTON – Iraqi forces are making good progress which could allow US troops to begin a partial withdrawal from Iraq earlier than planned, Iraqi National Security Advisor Muwaffaq al-Rubaie said Friday.
“Our Iraqi forces are gaining capabilities very fast. By the end of the year, these forces will be in place and we’ll probably go back to 15 foreign troop brigades by Easter,” Rubaie told a press conference.
“We believe, with the capability growth of our security forces and if the security situation continues to get better, then my prediction is that we will go to the pre-surge level of foreign troops (by) Easter.
http://www.channelnewsasia.com…..70/1/.html
John W @ 66
I stand corrected.
demi @ 67
My problem there is I don’t care to much for cheese so mac ‘n cheese doesn’t do much for me. But I did see the attempt and food does have its charms…
demi @ 63
I was thinking shutting it down for a bit would not have been such a bad idea. Or temporarily shutting out some individuals. Course then you get into the whole free speech/censorship meta-argument. Plus, then the trolls succeed (and I do believe there is a certain amount of trollishness going on)
dakine01 @ 70
How about chocolate and a big glass of red wine? :)
Looks like there’s a scandal brewing at Oral Roberts University. (TPM)
The university, which reported nearly $76 million in revenue as recently as 2005, is reeling, despite denials from the Roberts family, which insists the lawsuit filed by three former professors at the school is “about intimidation, blackmail and extortion.”
There’s no shortage of serious accusations, but clearly that “underage males” angle stands out. Apparently, Mrs. Roberts, a member of ORU’s board of regents, “frequently had cell-phone bills of more than $800 per month, with hundreds of text messages sent between 1 a.m. to 3 a.m. to ‘underage males who had been provided phones at university expense.’”
Alecia @ 46
FWIW, imvho, Democrats are letting Bush off the hook, by letting him talk about IRAQ. The occupation of IRAQ has destabilized the entire region. Democrats failure to emphasize this is incredibly stupid.
Dakine,
No kinna cheese? I used Queso Fresco, a skim milk soft one.
Next time, I’ll offer up something that agrees with you. But, you’re a mellow dude and I don’t recall your being offense (or defensive) a’tall.
Maybe I’m getting too abstract, but I am so interested these days in the group mind of FDL….I will go back and re-read the thread, but I’m wondering…reflecting on what it was like in the moment, do you think that things could have gone a different way if others of us had confronted the process as it started to spiral down?
There’s such a fine line between free speech and free spew—I’m just mulling out loud here about how the group can be creative and open and diverse and passionate–but also–respectful of one another.
Yes, it’s human to err….but it’s also human to learn and to teach and to help each other stretch….and I am wondering how this fascinating lake might do that.
Fern @ 72
Hey! Let’s really piss everyone off and talk about baseball.
Damn Yankees better win on Sunday. I have tickets for game 4 on Monday night (if there is one) and I’ll be pretty fuckin’ hacked if they get swept.
Glenn Greenwald is doing remarkable work in documenting the brave comments of O’Reilly as he characterizes himself as a Jew at the hands of brutal forces.
O’Reilly a Jew.
Bill O’Reilly a Jew.
I’m just trying to wrap my mind around this.
He compares his suffering and treatment to the near extermination of families near and dear to me.
He compares my participation in DKOS as my being part of the KKK or brownshirts. That I am somehow participating in threatening and terrorizing poor Bill for his noble beliefs.
Glenn, do you suppose that this is so ridiculous that maybe we just haven’t found a way to take this sh*t seriously? I think that’s the way I’ve handled it.
Maybe I don’t realize that Bill O’Reilly has found a way to inject Jews into his RATINGS? Do we actually have to start watching and documenting this maniac?
Has he no grace? No manners? Must we be forced to talk about the millions of murders AND Bill O’Reilly in the same breath?
This is making me sick.
Loo Hoo. @ 73
I know that I’m terrible and that I will feel awful tomorrow (or sometime) but I truly am enjoying this little bit of news.
demi @ 67
I was there reading that ugly thread. I thought your offer was perfect. Some commenters I have come to pretty much quit reading.
Jane Hamsher @ 76
Baseball!!! as Fern runs screaming from the room.
Alecia @ 69
Look at it this way. Had the Dems not spoken out and had all of the country not put pressure on these clowns, there would never be any talk of withdrawal – ever, ever, ever. So, in my opinion, public opinion wins, and that includes the Dems. There is no out-foxing going on here by the warpubs, there is only the result of public pressure. It is really all about We the People, no matter what your party and no matter what your religion. As long as it is positive, I’ll take it. JMHO
What’s funny is if you read the comments over at Glenn’s post, the thread has definitely been sidetracked into the whole “anti-semite” smear because of his criticism of ADL’s hypocrisy.
(I was writing my mull while some of you were posting your comments that seem to answer it, so pardon me that my question seems to follow your answer!!(
Fern @ 81
Works every time.
;)
(you can come back now, Fern, it’s over…)
Fern,
Well, that was the main issue wasn’t it? Free Speech and Censorship?
I mean, that was the Original Issue that brought up the Other Issue?
What a mess. We have trouble talking about kindness and morality without the uglies coming up.
Remember when Quincy Jones had all the Big Voices in Music come to record We Are The World?
I heard that he put a sign outside saying Leave Your Egos At The Door.
A good qualifier.
demi @ 76
Just have never liked cheeses of any sort. Not lactose intolerant or anything, just never liked ‘em.
Dad made some scrambled eggs with cheese one time. I ate ‘em but decidedly disliked ‘em so that set the pattern.
However I do eat cheese dishes when at someone’s home and it is served to me. Don’t want the folks bringing me nightmares.
Twain @ 80
Having your house redecorated at University expense eleven times in fourteen years struck me as well: hot carpenters coming and going.
Jane Hamsher @ 78
Twas a hell of game last nite, wasn’t it? Bugs and all.
Jane Hamsher @ 84
*tiptoeing and shoulder-checking*
Arch Bishop Tutu is a wise man…
“…those who are powerful have to remember the litmus test that God gives to the powerful – what is your treatment of the poor, the hungry? What is your treatment of the vulnerable, the voiceless? And on the basis of that, God passes God’s judgment.”
Aloha, Ya’ll!!!
Boo Radley says
October 6th, 2007 at 2:29 pm
Hey it’s not all bad. Psychologists, for example, make a fortune from recovering Catholics.
Jane Hamsher @ 78
They’re refundable, aren’t they…??? ;-)
Leave Your Egos At the Door
LYEATD—not a bad phrase for trigger moments.
Now that I think about it, some baseball color-commentary could have worked the other night.
Foul!
Home Run!
(Swat!)
Three up, Three down.
(Swat! – fuckin’ bugs)
Tag…you’re it!
Here’s what I think I think *g*…the facts are:
We are all human beings.
We are all part of the matrix of the universe.
We are a product of this very earth we exist on (if we do, indeed, exist – that is another story)…
We have a nature that is peculiar to humans, but has something in common with all other life forms (kind of like a blog thread).
We suffer from endless ego entrapment.
We have instincts and intuition that lead us to seek out community and family.
We don’t want death or pain in any form.
We feel compassionate for any life form that suffers.
Then….there are the mutants…what can I say.
Twain @ 73
Uhm!… CHOColate!
Princess Sparkle Pony has a funny sign from our Baghdad embassy.
Laura Doty @ 93
Theorectically speaking.
(but in the heat of the moment, won’t most scream I Am Not Yelling! and This Is Not About My Ego!?
(sorry)
Laura Doty @ 77
Excellent questions that I struggle with frequently these these days. Thanks for raising them.
demi @ 95
throw in a Texas League blooper, a dying quail and a can of corn, and you’re on to something…
TeddySanFran @ 99
Spew!!!!
TeddySanFran @ 89
Hmm. Why do I suspect that Mrs. Roberts looks like Katherine Harris ?
Jane’s upstairs, and I got the zed :P and I don’t know how to make the “link”.
I think it is delightful how this group nourishes each other just with the thought of food. And the parenthetic hugs and the solacing music links. I am so crazy about this place and its denizens, you have no idea. My husband gets this special grin on his face when I wander in to tell him the latest about someone’s joke or success or setback….these people we’ve never met, whose legal names we often don’t know…to be repetitious, I just think this kind of connection we’re all doing is something that is going to help heal the world. We are like the hyper net folks (connectors’ connectors) a la six degrees of separation. Very special, what is happening…..
Thank you Jane, I was going to post the following first thing in the morning, it isn’t too off topic here
If I do comment again, I will use this new identity at that time. Thank you for your kindness and consideration. All the best …
Well, the Yankees are toast…
We need to fight hard against this kind of nonsense. Here is my letter to Father Dease of St. Thomas:
It has come to my attention that the University of St. Thomas recently rescinded an invitation to Archbishop Desmond Tutu because of an allegedly anti-Semitic statement that he made several years ago in a speech on “occupation and oppression.” I have read the speech in question. This speech could be viewed as anti-Semitic from the point of view of a partisan of the government of Israel, but that would require conflation of the Jewish people with the government of Israel. That the administration of a Catholic university named for St. Thomas would go along with such nonsense is astonishing—especially since you had no objection, until after the fact, to an invitation to Ann Coulter to speak at St. Thomas. As a “liberal” Christian, and therefore one of those people that Ms. Coulter would be happy to see eliminated from this earth if she could wrap her mind around the existence of a liberal Christian, I find this double standard exhibited by a major American Catholic university to be quite disturbing. But not at all surprising, unfortunately.
Laura Doty @ 32
history. baggage. context. we come to the conversation with sensitive buttons that are easily pushed.
we don’t even agree on what is reality. and yet there has been and is still so much suffering and injustice (jewish and palestinian) tied up in our varying understandings – how can we not care?
my take, anyway.
New Thread Linky…
http://www.firedoglake.com/200…../#comments
T-bear
I hope you will continue to comment here. You offer a lot.
Can someone give me the link to the thread in question?
Fern @ 11
I think I must have missed most of it. The mods must have been running in circles trying to figure out whether to intervene or censor.
But we MUST have conversations on those subjects here, with the flaming kept somewhat under control, so we can learn how to talk to each other about difficult issues.
As a puny example, I had a small exchange with BigMitch about something or other, and on the next thread I told him, without reviving any of the arguments, that I hope he had not taken offense. He kindly proclaimed that he didn’t mind a good argument at all– at which point I referred him back to the end of the previous thread where I had left a final (for that thread) reply. He went downstairs, read it, and came back to say he didn’t find anything offensive there, and we had a bit more dialog. The result for me was that my respect for BigMitch increased, and we understood each other better.
The Lake is and should be a place where we do more than just agree with each other about everything. My two suggested rules are these:
* No ad hominem attacks
* Limit the rhetorical excess. If you need rhetorical excess to make your point, you’ve got a weak point and need to pay attention to that. (I am sometimes guilty of this, myself)
Bob in HI
Laura Doty @ 111
I’ll be reading your comment again. Thanks.
The mods of course cannot stop rhetorical excesses…that would inhibit free speech. But WE can make process comments about the REs and the a h attacks, and the ego that slipped in the door. If enough of us were willing to hold to that, I’m imagining we could alter the flow.
bobschacht @ 113
One problem is that people come and go and react to a post without any context. I was agreeing with BigMitch and, on the next thread, I cracked a joke and got jumped on. I want to be as cool as possible here but I’m not going to be bullied.
The thread much discussed today.
Bishop Tutu:
He’s right. This is a rhetorical trick used by the malefactors who push for the segregation and removal of the Palestinian Semitic peoples from their homes; which is not to say that Israeli Jews (Mizrachim [the Semetic Jewish race], Sephardic, Ashkenazi’s, Ethiopian and anyone else who converted) shouldn’t have a homeland, but it should exist alongside their true brothers – the Palestinians – at the very least at the 1967 borders which is a huge compromise in itself for the Palestinians when considering what the map looked like with the UN Partition Plan 181 of 1947.
Who exactly is a Semite?
Laura Doty @ 115
I also question the notion of “free speech”. I’ve had offline exchanges with other lakers and I feel as if this is Jane and Christy’s living room and that they get so say what goes.
Raven,
I remember that.
You don’t have to accept being bullied and I thought you handled yourself just fine.
I was hoping that people would have learned from how you responded and learned from that.
Ooops.
demi @ 120
I could have been a tad less aggressive.
raven @ 119
?? Too free or not free enough??
R-
Aren’t you sweet?
I hope people don’t mind that I brought the subject up. I don’t remember seeing it being discussed before, since then, but I don’t read every thread.
I’m encouraged by the comments here about who we are as a community and the extent to which folks contemplate and want to make things better.
Laura Doty @ 122
I guess my point is that they have the final say in my mind. It’s pretty subjective, people say all kinds of stuff but there a certain things they don’t cotton to. That’s fine by me.
Boston1775 @ 112
This was the one: linky
Demi_ I just dropped you a line to tell you how glad I am that you brought this up. Thursday sounded like something that pushed the bus took close to the edge. It would be a shame if we can’t learn something about ourselves collectively, through such a moment.
Laura Doty @ 126
So this is where all of you are hiding ! *g*
There have been more than a few of these dust- ups at FDL … eventually things return to normal …
Laura Doty @ 126
The problem is, in my mind, is that people are simply dug in on their position. I have been confused by the whole thing most of my life and really see the “cycle of violence” in the ME as microcosm of the human race. The arguments for and against Israel remind me of the endless blathering by “radicals” on campuses in the 60’s. Everyone is so smart and have these “facts” that prove they are right.
Tutu’s Black,
Colter’s white
You know, I went back and re-read the thread in question – to find that a lot of people made rational, thoughtful comments. Not as bad as I remembered – with maybe two or three notable exceptions.
Hi guys. What did I miss?
Oh, there was a lot of self congratulatory talk about free speech, but I am in the doghouse for one comment I made when nobody was around!
There was not so much anti-religion talk today, which is good because we are here to all praise Desmond Tutu, a man of God.
There was general acceptance of Tutu’s assertion
Nowhere was this contextualized: Father Dennis says that no Jewish organization asked him not to invite Tutu.
There was a conspicuous lack of any appreciation for the fact that when Tutu or anyone else says what he said above, they in effect silence and dismiss anyone who would have the temerity to defend Israel.
There was no discussion of Tutu’s dismissive attitude towards the Holocaust, which is a sort of “let by-gones be bygones” way of ingoring Israel’s raison d’etre. It’s probably a good thing, because as Gordon M told us the other night, “Israel overplayed that hand a long time ago.”
And there was no warning that if you called someone for uttering anti-Semitic smears — even in jest — you would be effectively barred from the debate.
All of this is good, because it keeps people from having to question their beliefs.
And the Yankees were idle today.
BigMitch @ 131
but, bigmitch, i think this is just wrong.
i haven’t see defenders of israel silenced… what i see is attempts (many of them successful) to silence critics of israel (talks cancelled, tenure denied, etc).
what defenders of israel have been silenced? seriously, are there any? if defenders of israel are actually being silenced, please give me some good evidence and i will happily retract my this comment. but the way it looks to me is that someone was successful in getting bishop tutu’s talk cancelled – in other words, it was bishop tutu who was (partially) silenced. it was not that he silenced someone else.
It’s clear that Bishop Tutu didn’t (quite) compare Israelis to Hitler. So I wouldn’t say it qualifies as hate speech. However, the claim that Israel is on a par with the kinds of genocidal and racists he lists is slanderous enough for me to doubt his judgment in this matter.
More generally you are again being obtuse. Comparisons with Hitler, calling people Nazis, etc., isn’t necessarily hate speech. Calling Israel or Israelis Hitler, Nazis, etc., is. Because it is specifically aimed at and intended to wound Jews on account of their history.
Tutu’s point about the possible meanings of anti-Semitism are a standard bit of nonsense by the way. The fact that Jews, Arabs, and others are all Semites is beside the point. The term is an English term and it’s meaning in English is related to Jews, not Semites generally.
And while Coulter is a loathsome person and has said horrifically racist things, her ridiculous quote above, again, doesn’t fall into the same category.
The right is horribly hypocritical about all sorts of things. But that doesn’t mean you should be disingenuous or deliberately obtuse about what would or would not be an anti-Semitic statement, as you are being here.
larry birnbaum @ 133 –
is your comment directed to me or someone else?
Larry, the Nazi era wasn’t only about the Jews. When people use the term Nazi they are often referring to the Nazis’ fascist, repressive, and, um, invasive tendencies. So do please chill out.
There is nothing hateful about what Desmond Tutu said. It should be enough to point out what happened to Jimmy Carter for people to ‘get it’. We are living in a kind of stalinist, totalitarian environment that virulently represses political criticism of ——. And the stakes get very high when those voicing the criticism are otherwise recognized as heroes, human rights leaders, martyrs, and long time fighters of the good fight (for obvious reasons). I don’t know what to say except that you can either 1) understand this and get on with your life quietly, 2) speak out about it and risk being banished from respectable society, or 3) join in and clobber anybody who opens their mouth with this nasty epithet (either explicitly or through innuendo).
I wish these people in the third category would stop and think once in a while about what they are doing; not just about how cruel it all is, but how odd and counter-productive. I mean… what ever happened to winning friends and influencing people? How does silencing, slandering, demoting, or firing anybody who wants to have an intelligent conversation about this subject represent an effective long term strategy?
Email sent to St Thomas after looking all over their website and not finding any email addresses for their board of directors nor their president:
Dear St Thomas Webmaster:
First of all it is both ironic as well as pathetic that your board of directors and president hides behind a webmaster instead of allowing themselves to be reached by email. It is no mistake your bosses and all the executives and even your president have told you to not put their email addresses on the St Thomas website. As an IT person myself I know I am writing to the one person who has little power but is expected to be diplomat, technical genius, and business executive, even though you do not get paid for it nor do you get any credit ~ just all the blame. I apologize for writing to you, but your bosses insist on hiding behind you instead of allowing themselves to be directly contacted. You deserve a raise! Please pass this email on to your bosses and tell them you are just the messenger and for once not to blame you for their own fearful behavior that is very unbecoming to people who are supposed to be leaders, not hide in their offices and let a webmaster take their email.
Open Letter to St Thomas Executives and President:
I am writing because I am shocked that you are not allowing an Desmond Tutu, an Archbishop, a Nobel prize winner, a man revered by millions of Catholics and non-Catholics alike, to speak at your school, yet you seem to think it is more than fine to hire Ann Coulter to speak who is a hate-filled war monger and someone who makes many sensible people shudder in disgust at her racist, elitist and hate filled comments. What hardships has this woman ever endured compared to what Desmond Tutu endured ~ less pay from you than from the laughable Fox “news” network and any corporate welfare queen where she prostitutes herself? Do you actually believe that Archbishop Tutu is LESS qualified, a man who endured apartheid, who has traveled the world over to speak out against any injustice imposed upon people who have no power and who are victims of corporate, elitist and racist deeds, should not speak at your university because he had the audacity to speak for the Palestinian people, many who WERE Christian until they fled their homeland and others who have endured years of poverty and discrimination in their own land???
Really I have to ask you to look in your corporate welfare blinded hearts and ask, “Who would Jesus choose?”
VERY sincerely,
Catherine Sullivan
Address and phone included.
larry birnbaum @ 133
Or it could be an effort to reach into their own history and get them to REFLECT on the similarities of the ACTS. Tutu has consistently pointed out that he abhors specific ACTS by the Israeli GOVERNMENT.
That includes the collective punishments used by Israel against the Palestinians, in general, or families of suspected terrorists, in particular.
Or the sealing off of entire communities, blocking resources and travel inside or out.
That includes the creation of apartheid-like “Bantustans” (and BigMitch should look at the rationales the apartheid government made about creating these entities…which included “security”, the right to determine their own borders, and the need to exclude others from citizenry in the state to preserve their “vision”). These rationales are also made by other despotic regimes.
When Carter or Tutu (who should know something about how the South Africa system operated) point out the similarities of these acts to apartheid they are vilified as well…it’s not only drawing parallels to how the early days when the Nazis began to persecute the Jews (and others they opposed. Any parallel to any regime will draw out these “how dare you!” attacks.
Laura Doty @ 77
I think it arises from a strong foundation, from family values to quote someone.
Governance in the family is usually backed by love and if you carry that over to the common, then we should all do well. But, if someone is weak and embarrassed and pissed off (Dubya, for example), then they would probably want to protect themselves by controlling too much.
Governance should be a firm hand, not a slap or punch or grip on the neck. Governance can be a yellow line you don’t cross for your own safety, but shouldn’t be a concrete wall topped with barbed wire. Governance is NOT control, it’s the lines you don’t cross for everyone’s sake.
Bush & Co have crossed the line in some major ways. Lying about war is a very big no no. It’s abrogating to themselves Powers which should properly reside in the hands of the public. Instead of catching nukes they got rid of Valerie Plame and the network of nuke watchers she headed. That’s a big no no. Without consulting with anyone Bush & Co destroyed something others had put in place. They took power into their own hands inappropriately.
They want to control and steal (power, money, etc.) and not govern (which requires consultation with many people).
Here at the “lake” the moderators simply remind people to use their library voices, be civil, use one nickname and keep the lines painted so we know where it’s safe to go. Only in extreme cases do they have to use ‘force’.
Thanks Jane for giving us this place to chat.
Dakine01 (at 88) writes,
just have never liked cheeses of any sort. Not lactose intolerant or anything, just never liked ‘em.
Dad made some scrambled eggs with cheese one time. I ate ‘em but decidedly disliked ‘em so that set the pattern.
(snip)
Iudovic Lalanne in Curiosités Bibliographiques (1857), writes:
Sagittarius, savant allemand, publia, vers 1615, un traité d’une haute importance, à en juger par le titre : Quid fiat quod multi abhorreant ab esu casei ? Un savant hollandais, Martin Schoockius, trouvant que la matière n’était pas encore épuisée, publia, en 1665 : Tractatus
de aversione casei. Il est juste de dire que ce sujet était pour lui un sujet éminemment national. Car les Hollandais, ces marchands de fromages, comme les appelait la Fontaine, avaient un vif intérêt à connaître, afin de les combattre, les mauvaises raisons qui pouvaient empêcher les hommes de manger du fromage en général, et en particulier du fromage de Hollande.
BTW, I have written a sharp letter of protest to the president of St Thomas, and I recommend that you do the same…
larry birnbaum @ 133
This parsing of words isn’t at all helpful.
If he wasn’t “(quite)” saying it, then why do you say he was putting Israel “on a par”. Either he was or he wasn’t.
No, this parsing of words isn’t helpful at all.
Lovely way to converse to kill a conversation.
Why doesn’t one standard of logic doesn’t fit all?
Maybe it stands out more clearly to others that Israel is replaying their experience with the Nazis, except they have reversed roles.
Or, maybe they’ve always had these qualities of character, having been raised in the European environment where they were surrounded by less genteel barbarians.
Either way the suggestion the Israeli Jews are acting that way might, to the speaker, mean only that they see similarities in these highly notable groups. Why would it have to imply anything specific about the Jews and their ‘history’? Not everybody who makes note of the recent Jewish behavior even knows of the Jewish history.
The outraged sensitivity Israelis sometimes display strikes outsiders as strange and even dangerously unbalanced. If Jews can’t see it themselves it’s probably because they’ve isolated themselves so much that their group-think or world-view has become highly divergent from Western Civilization.
Nice…finish off with some slander to engender good will. Riiiight!
You are being passive aggressive — attack while claiming victimhood.
It certainly isn’t healthy.
I gotta be here because The Arch (that’s on his Tshirt)is one of my alltime heroes)but I’m not enjoying this trend to nastiness one little bit.
That said, I am going to quote PJ O’Rourke (gasp)- not THE PJ O’R, Libertarian Supremo – Yes, the same.
After WW2, Germany should have made reparations by giving the Jewish people Bavaria for their homeland and leaving Jerusalem as an International Holy City.The Bavarians would have had to accept it as wartime repayment and the Jewish people would have had fertile, industrialised land for their own.I (Jewish South African) like it.