The ACLU recently commissioned a poll which shows a huge pendulum shift, maybe even a sea change. Not only do a majority of American voters favor the restoration of our civil liberties, but a majority of Republican voters do too. Certainly, this is not the first time public opinion has changed so dramatically, but it may be the first time that it’s occurred without our political and media elites acknowledging it. As Glenn Greenwald observes (emphasis added):
All of the solemn “debates” and hand-wringing and anti-torture laws that were passed have changed very little, because the administration knows that there is no political will ever to enforce any of that. They know that the political and media institutions intended to impose checks on their behavior will never take any meaningful stand against what they do, no matter how blatantly extreme or illegal.
(…)
Ignorance or incredulity can no longer explain our acquiescence. Accommodating and protecting the lawbreaking of high Bush officials is widely seen by our Beltway elite as a duty of bipartisanship, a hallmark of Seriousness.
(…)
[W]hen it comes to Bush’s extremism and lawbreaking, we’re not imposing consequences slowly. We’re not imposing consequences at all. Quite the contrary, we’re moving in the opposite direction — when we’re not affirmatively endorsing and providing protection for that conduct, we’re choosing not to know about it, or simply allowing it to fester. And the more that happens, the less that behavior becomes the exclusive province of the Bush administration and the more it becomes our country’s defining behavior.
In a comment about defeatism, Glenn reminds us of the good ol’ days when many of us (myself included) believed that the electoral system and media were so corrupted that Democrats would never win an election again. It makes for an interesting comparison: We’ve gone from frustration with the Democrats’ inability to win, to frustration with their unwillingness to oppose. (Not that they were willing to oppose back then, either.)
But as infuriating as it is that Democrats are tough on progressives and soft on Republicans, we’re better off than we were three years ago. The political environment is now so anti-Republican that the old arguments against primarying or withholding support don’t apply.
For one thing, the 2008 electorate will be very receptive to candidates who promise to fight to end the war and restore rule of law, and very hostile to “centrists” who didn’t. This should benefit progressives in both primary and general elections.
For another, the Democrats’ numerical advantages in congressional races (Republican retirements, sizable House majority, 9 fewer Senate seats to defend) mean that we can afford to let some Bush Dogs twist in the wind. As long as Democrats retain control of committees and subpoenas, the Lieberdems don’t buy us much over Republicans, so why waste money and energy we could use to elect progressives?
The biggest snag is that a progressive president looks unlikely right now, but the prospect of President Rudy is so horrific that we’ll have to support the Democratic nominee whoever they are. Better a lame prez than a crazy one.
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ELI!!!
LAURA!!!
Teh Eli…woot woot
ELI AND LAURA!!!!
MM!! CC!!! ELI AGAIN!!!!
i let downstairs know.
Hiya, CC! Hiya, MM!
Abner Louima
Amadou Diallo
Patrick Dorismond
Although these names may not be an anchor for Rudy in the South, they can and will be an anchor around his neck in the rest of the country. A couple of ghosts that will haunt Rudy and Judy all the way down.
dakine01 @ 7
Rudy’s approach to law enforcement is very similar to Dubya’s approach to foreign policy.
* does a snoopy dance for the restoration of our civil liberties *
tick-tock
tick-tock
the telltale poll
dakine01 @ 7
I’d love to see some posts about what happened get out in the toobz, wouldn’t you???? Thank you for always reminding me.
Eli @ 8
And very much an indicator of how Rudy would conduct his foreign policy as well.
kirk murphy @ 10
lol
dakine01 @ 12
If they’re not white, they’re fair game.
Eli @ 8
Having lived in NYC during Ghoulianitime, his potential for “worse” than Bush/Cheney is almost unbelievable, but true, although Cheney takes the cake…he is truly authoritarian, corrupt, and he is a cheater on his own family…scum…ask the firefighters.
Thanks for reeling me back in Eli. I’ve been a bit frustrated of late. I refuse to give up and give in.
Hi Laura, hope you’re doing well this evening.
Millineryman @ 16
The next year and a half probably *will* suck, however. Unless the Democrats start being more afraid of the people than the Republicans.
Eli @ 18
That’s why the pressure has to be keep up with some strategic challenges, money donations and calling the leaders out when needed.
Hi Eli. Not trying go all presidential with the thread but I cannot vote for HC no matter who the Goopers serve up.. This country and my party, the high colonic party, has to learn the DLC does not get any coddling from me.
For now, Kucinich! after the primary, Go Blue America!
The reason I don’t buy the swinging pendulem argument is that I don’t think that the American people ever consented to forfeiting our rights. A plurality of Americans asked for better security (in response to shrubco’s fearmongering.. on the back of pre-existing but real terrorist threat which shrubco exploited), and they were tricked into thinking that shrubomination would provide it for ‘em, and then tricked again when shrubco told them that the measures we were all screaming about really didn’t undermine that rights.. that this was just propaganda from left wing radicals. People went along with this line of argument, because they really didn’t know or understand what their rights were in the first place, and more importantly, they didn’t see the broader conspiracy for undermining those rights which shrubco perpetrated.
I think this is the danger — we’re where we are today because Congress and the American people were too easily duped, not because we were willing to trade away our constitutionally protected civil liberties as informed citizens. And we can all be duped again, by another smooth-talking demagogue cowboy with fascist predilections. If we don’t want this to happen again, we need to build the capacity of the American people to understand their role in protecting our unique liberties.. and that can only happen through civics education.
Millineryman @ 19
I’m guessing that some of the Dems facing primary challenges might be a little less wankerish. *Some* of them. Maybe.
Eli @ 18
Great post again, Eli.
I had watched the Rachel Maddow take-down of Pat Buchanan on C&L re SCHIP, wherein the sputtering PB says Prez Bush is a man of principle and better late than never, etc etc. and has to dig in his heels for what’s best for the country and like lots of crap like that.
All of which left me wondering, does public opinion count anymore? Am I that disenfranchised in my own country? I’ve never felt like that ever before. I mean that the admin. doesn’t listen to anybody, not even their own party. It just boggles.
Blub @ 21
I think that’s correct to some extent, but the net result is the same: A large majority of the American people are fed up with what the Republicans have been doing, and want it to stop.
Anyone who can credibly pledge to fix their mess will do well, anyone who doesn’t, or has already shown themselves to be a Bush enabler… will not.
Eli @ 18
Great post again, Eli.
I had watched the Rachel Maddow take-down of Pat Buchanan on C&L re SCHIP, wherein the sputtering PB says Prez Bush is a man of principle and better late than never, etc etc. and has to dig in his heels for what’s best for the country and like lots of crap like that.
All of which left me wondering, does public opinion count anymore? Am I that disenfranchised in my own country? I’ve never felt like that ever before. I mean that the admin. doesn’t listen to anybody, not even their own party. It just boggles.
do-si-do @ 23
If the Democrats won’t listen to us, why should Dubya?
the real thig with that penculum thing is that it never really existed
progressive values have ALWAYS been the prevelant opinion
what was differant between most Americans was who they believed
middle class Americans were convinced somehow that republicans would pass the law that middle class people needed, that our economy needed, that our national security needed, that our civil liberties needed
this was a marketing scam and nothing but a marketing scam, republicans will always pass laws that are counter productive to the middle class
yet the middle class that switched to the republican party were scammed into believing the reverse
the middle class is the party of the constitution, the party of government out of our personal lives, the party of strong foreign policy combined with respect, dignity, integrity, the party of fiscal responsibility
we are the party that ELIMINATES entitlement programs where they don’t belong, we ELIMINATE welfare for the wealthy, WE are the party of the rule of law, WE are the party OF THE PEOPLE FOR THE PEOPLE
the republicans have and will always be the party of the wealthy, for the wealthy
we are middle America, we are the force that created this country, we are the progressivews
WE ARE THE MAJORITY, WE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN THE MAJORITY
WE ARE DEMOCRATS
though there are some of us that have been hypnotized by corporate progaganda into believeing the republicans are the politicians they should be vcting for
we are middle america
ouch.
Nice post, Eli. It’s frustrating now, but all you need to do is look back at where were were months ago, a year ago, etc. — things are moving, too slow for an impatient me, but moving. We’re living important history, and I just want it to move along.
do-si-do @ 27
I might be a little bitter.
I hear that women really dig that.
Eli…
(whimpering) because it’s still…
…a democracy?
(ducking)
Scarecrow @ 28
I think we’re watching the Republicans *and* Lieberdems slit their own throats. I’m just hoping that we have the candidates in place to take advantage.
Good news from the Prog Dem Caucus:
– They’ve apparently told Steny to fuhgeddaboudit with the bizarre FISA cave-in bill he was pimping.
– Larry Johnson sez they may have finally succeeded in steering the rest of the Congress away from the insanity that is the neocon-PNAC wet-dream attack on Iran.
do-si-do @ 30
The people have the votes, but the money *delivers* the votes. If we can decouple money (or at least corporate money) from votes, the scenery will change dramatically.
Eli @ 32
It’s called ‘getting a critical mass in place’. We’ve got one now, thanks to the hard work of people who not too long ago were derided as failures (*cough*HowardDean*cough*).
Eli @ 22
In Alaska, in the primary race to unseat Don Young, very progressive Diane Benson is facing old-school pol Jake Metcalfe. Metcalfe, described two weeks ago as “The Dick Cheney of Alaska Democrats,” starved Benson’s campaign for funds last year, from his position as chairman of the AK Dem organization. He recently claimed that he couldn’t send more money to her campaign because Rahm Emanuel didn’t think it was a good idea. Benson ended up getting 42% of the vote – the closest anyone has come to Young in over 20 years – on 8% of the money spent by Young.
Metcalfe’s campaign went into circle-the-wagons mode today after a rightwing radio host in Anchorage bullied Metcalfe into firing a staffer who was protesting a local legislator caught up in the VECO corruption scandal.
Phoenix Woman @ 32
I’m really psyched about the FISA reversal, but what Congress does won’t really figure into Dubya’s calculations on Iran.
I sense a definite seachange shift. It is not about the war. It is about the rule of law, the Constitution. This is what will save America from the Homelandians. Without that core premise that our country is built upon, we are toast. I feel that Congress is realizing that we are on the razor’s edge. Finally. I have hope. The future of our country lies in people like Sheldon Whitehouse, and Russ Feingold, and Leahy. The future is now. There is only ever now. I want Bush, Cheney, Chertoff out of our government now, in disgrace, and held accountable if possible. Pipedream? Maybe not.
Phoenix Woman @ 32
You just made the connection I did today. That is why I have hope. I do. I will never give up.
Eli @ 24
I don’t disagree with you.. I’m just concerned that unless the American people know what to look for, then somebody else.. including people within our own party, will just use the same ole’ tactics all over again. We, as a country, have to understand that the reason shrub’s tactics didn’t work (for our collective benefit) was because of those tactics, not just because of shrub personally. This isn’t just about people who enable shrub, but about people who enable the ideology behind shrubco.
Blub @ 39
Shrub II can be headed off if the Democrats have the sense to call him out. But that’s not something they’ve been very good at.
But if the current situation gives us a window to Feingoldize the Democratic party, maybe there’s hope.
so if I’m reading correctly:
the people want one thing.
the ‘war/media/fake political differences’ complex’ wants something altogether different.
Our congress are nothing but a bunch of high class hookers, hanging out on the side of the road waiting to see who offers them the most for their tricks.
How does it go? Positive attracts positive, positive attracts negative, or negative attracts negative.
We are powerful. We are not alone. We are powerful, and don’t believe their lies. Don’t believe the lies you tell yourself either.
Phoenix Woman @ 35
I hope, sincerely hope, this is well-founded optimism and I will hope for it myself.
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 41
Yeah, that’s pretty much it. The people don’t want to vote for Republicans, and they don’t want to vote for Republicans pretending to be Democrats. I think 2008 will be a good year to be a progressive, unless the Republicans find a way to hypnotize everyone again.
my bet for 2009 at the moment is either a) coup d’etat (erm, “temporal suspension of the bill of rights and constitution”, that is) or b) president Hillary (who would continue the Cheney regime, only with more style and better grammar).
Eli @ 45
I’m pretty sure the spell is broken…broken good.
As the US pendulum swings one million Iraqi people are killed (and counting), 3700 Americans soldiers are killed (and counting) hundreds of thousands are injured , 4 million Iraqi’s become refugees, and Iraq has basically been destroyed.
Millions of hearts, minds and lives destroyed as our Pendulum swings.
Criminal
Spiritcatcher @ 47
and pantsuits!!! really great pantsuits!!!
I want my Supreme Court back so I’ll hold my nose if I have to and vote for whoever the Democratic candidate is.
Eli @ 46
Republicans in DLC or D clothing will be what we need to fight more than ever, imo.
Eli @ 30
heh.
yes. women dig the ‘bitter’ look but one must have the proper ‘accessories’ to complete the effect. :-)
kathleen @ 48
I hear you. I would prefer for the Democrats to just fucking *act* like Democrats. But it doesn’t look like that’s happening, so 2008 may be the best we can hope for.
Spiritcatcher @ 46
Hillary is not my favorite candidate, but I completely disagree that she would continue the Cheney regime. That is just not logical. Whoever becomes president, if it happens, will be saddled with a horrible mess. I was never, ever terrified during the Clinton presidency. There were things that were bad, there were things that were good, but you cannot compare the last 7 years to Clinton. You just can’t. JMHO Don’t drink that Koolaid either. She was right all along about the “right-wing conspiracy”…she nailed it. We are just beginning to see what she already knew.
Millineryman @ 50
That’s very high on my list of reasons. Bad as Hillary will probably be, I don’t think she’d actually nominate a wingnut to the SCOTUS.
Ed*ard Teller @ 36
So why does Metcalfe think he has the balls to stand up to Don Young when he can’t stand up to the Right Wing Noise machine?
Or does he not see the connection between caving on a staffer issue like this with the need to be strong in Congress?
Looks to me like he just handed Diane Benson an easy issue to compare and contrast.
I hear that women really dig that.
Are you being funny? On a Friday night, I’m not understanding? Serious, sarcastic or what?
I would like to understand and not run the risk of misunderstanding.
demi @ 57
That would be sarcasm.
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 52
Huh?
LS @ 59
I was kinda wondering too. I’m hoping stubble and premature gray will be among them…
Eli @ 60
707 no comment
Eli, thanks for the clarification.
I’ll assume your comment wasn’t sarcastic as well.
It’s been a long week and I don’t know your tendacies well enough to assume where you were coming from.
It has gotten a little cranky here lately. But, still thanks for answering.
I feel better. :)
demi @ 62
Basically, I’m a very cranky smartass.
LS @ 55
I agree. I don’t think she is the perfect candidate either, but I would say she’d be a hella lot more like Clinton [who was not perfect] than Bush, and I can live with that. My concern would be how far she’d go at dismantling that apparatachik she inherits (assuming she wins) that Bill didn’t. I think the both of them *might* not go as far as they should in eliminating things they thought could be useful.
It’s really hard to say. Everyone’s screaming about all the candidates’ platforms, but in my experience, the platform/campaign promises do not always reflect how the person will actually behave as president. I present to you one very well known example: the current Bush.
Eli @ 64
I hear that women really dig that.
Ha, ha, ha, “That’s What I like about You! Classic!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXyRLDPo1BI
Riesz Fischer @ 65
At least one does, thankfully.
A documentary by Bill Moyers on the Iraqi refugee issue. Neglected by the MSM.
The people displaced by our pendulum swinging.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/jour…..atch3.html
Eli,
Ah!
Unfortunately, one of the drawbacks to non-verbal is that I miss the little nuances.
Nice to meet you.
I’ll remember this for the future.
I myself can get smartypantsy at times.
But, I’ve learned that when I’m speaking to people who don’t know me, I try to be, and not always successfully, more straightforward.
Doesn’t mean the other person get’s me.
dakine01 @ 57
Diane Benson may be getting an opportunity to ask those very questions in about 35 minutes. She’s practicing them right now.
BTW, when Diane Benson gets elected to Congress, she will be the first Native American woman to be a member of that body.
Eli @ 54
so F—ing sad so criminal. I am ashamed of my country.
peanutbutter @ 65
It’s gotten to a point where someone moderately competent and not completely corrupt would be a huge improvement.
LS @ 60
just joshin’ around…
demi @ 69
Pleased to meet you too.
kathleen @ 71
Right now it looks like my country’s heart is in the right place. I’m ashamed of my *government*.
Ed*ard Teller @ 71
I’m really cheering for her. If I were to donate to any candidate (which I can’t cause it’s illegal) it would be her.
kathleen @ 72
Don’t be ashamed. Fight back (I know how much you do BTW!!!) Fight on. The rest of the world knows what the problem is. The earth knows what the problem is.
Here’s a nice pitcher of unsweetened lemonade for y’all.
See, Eli? I’m not always a nice girl.
I hear how totally messed up everything is, but, I do get tired of having it rammed down my throat on every other fucking comment.
New information is appreciated, however, one note pissing contests get old.
Fern @ 76
I’m really cheering for her. If I were to donate to any candidate (which I can’t cause it’s illegal) it would be her.
This is the second time you’ve said that. Cheering her on and passing the word helps a lot. Thanks!
LS @ 55
I watched Fucker today (I know, I know) and he said whenever he sees Hillary he senses that she hates men.
OMG.. this is huge isn’t it?
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITI…..index.html
Do I understand this correctly, and that Waxman has now basically accused the State Department of committing a felony?
Riesz Fischer @ 80
And this is bad because…?
Riesz Fischer @ 80
He is an idjiot. He said he feels like he has to “cross his legs” every time she speaks. Think about it..that is so absurd. He reads the script they give him.
Blub @ 81
Hope.
Blub @ 81
It means nothing really.
Two words Harriet Meirs.
Blub @ 80
I like how the “contractor”’s (please just call them fucking mercs already) lawyer says he didn’t commit any crime. Which, sadly, may be technically true – but he still killed a man for absolutely no reason other than that he could.
Millineryman @ 85
In the long run perhaps you’re right, but if this is at least as big as the Myers/AUSA scandal, then we have our cocktober surprise don’t we?
Ed*ard Teller @ 79
I had assumed you hadn’t seen last time – it was at the end of a thread.
Someone earlier gave a short list of all the Dirty Deeds being covered by the MSM.
It’s Good News.
A step in the right direction.
Caught in the Crossfire.
Blub @ 87
I just want some accountabilty beyond a piece of a paper with words on it.
Eli @ 24
Pretty much, I agree with what you’re both saying. The only problem is that there are an awful lot of people currently in the governing bodies that would have to be included in the “already shown themselves to be a Bush enabler” group. Certainly Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, Steny Hoyer, Rahm Emanuel, Chuck Schumer, a lot of other pretty heavy hitters. What do you do with the Carl Levins and Diane Feinsteins?
What about the new Senators that don’t seem to be able to distinguish first amendment rights violations from something that should rightfully be censured by Congress, like a President that is regularly abusing his authority, stonewalling Congress (and otherwise showing contempt for Congress,) and withholding evidence of wrongdoing by the administration by claiming executive privilege protection in combination with selectively classifying information. Any of these things are impeachable offenses, yet the only reason that has a feel of reality to it is that nobody wants the kind of partisan witch hunt that we went through with the Clinton Administration, so it seems likely that they are overlooking all wrongdoing because they don’t want to be perceived as partisan. Rethugs have once again won. They worked hard to finally make the word partisan into a dirty word, just as they made the word liberal into something akin to cussing.
Of course, I do think that there is another reason that Dems are afraid of Impeachment…Nancy Pelosi doesn’t want it to appear that she somehow engineered her way into the WH by the back door. In other words, we would go after Bush/Cheney for Impeachment so as to gain the Presidency for our party because Nancy became Speaker. But again, partisanship.
I think some people are gradually coming out of their stupor, but it’s slow going. We need to continue to point out that there are now a lot of Republicans starting to come forward warning against allowing the government to usurp or civil liberties, which automatically makes us weaker and puts us on a road to tyranny. We need to point out that it is unprecedented that as many generals come out of the armed forces and criticize the current commander in chief soon after they leave. We need to repeat again and again Ike’s warning about the military/industrial complex. We need to wake up the country ASAP.
Ann in AZ @ 91
Bad senators are especially problematic, because it takes at least six years to get rid of them all.
I’d be quite happy to flush them all, including Pelosi.
Sheldon Whitehouse for President ASAP….emergency…emergency
LS @ 90
Well, it’s weird how conservatives hate uppity women if they’re liberal, but they have no problem with conservative women– take Maggie Thatcher for example.
Lately I’ve been reading that conservatism is not an ideology, it’s tribalism. They really don’t care about issues, like whether women should be in leadership roles, but only which tribe they belong to.
And I think that’s why Benito Giuliani may very well win the Puke nomination.
LS @ 93
And just think how fun it would be to refer to the Whitehouse White House.
Blub @ 81
At the very least, I would say that Andrew Noonen most likely will join the unemployed, at least. He even has his own wiki page.
Eli @ 96
I wish.
Ann in AZ @ 92
I just don’t see that. No matter what, one would be impeached before the other. If Bush was impeached first, then Cheney becomes Prez and selects a VP who then becomes Prez when Cheney is impeached. Or if Cheney’s impeached first, Bush picks out another VP who then becomes president when Bush is impeached, and s/he selects his VP.
Pelosi would only become President if both Bush and Cheney (as a hypothetical example) died at the same time — that line of succession is an emergency one when there is no President OR VP to succeed. As long as one or the other is still around, they get to appoint a VP and on it would go.
ccmask @ 96
Your law & order Republican party: Break the law, lose your job. No exceptions.
Well, okay, maybe just a few teensy exceptions…
Phoenix Woman @ 33
that is good news … makes me feel a lot happier than I did yesterday …
Eight more years of Clinton vs Rudy or dead Fred?
Geez- let me think about it-
i’m pretty sure i didn’t think the dems would never win again… iirc, i thought the cheating would make it harder, but not impossible. otherwise why would i have spent all that time on the out-of-state moveon phone banking?
pre-nov 2006 i was pissed at the dems for not opposing bush… but i did think they would start if we helped elect more of them.
ha! well, i learned my lesson.
so, in some ways things look worse to me now, because the dems have turned out to be more useless to us and accomodating to bush than i ever expected.
otoh, i think the american people are coming around… and that gives me more hope than anything.
I never thought that Spiro Agnew would resign, but he did. I never, ever, ever, ever thought Nixon would resign, but he did. Reality.
Why would Tucker cross his legs? What’s he protecting?
Eli at #93, what do you think the chances are that the ones that get flushed will all be replaced by better progressive Democrats and we wouldn’t lose any precious seats in the process? In either the House or the Senate?
Dead Fred—-The New Dead Ronnie!!
rwcole @ 105
Good friggin’ question!!! Ummmm…
Eli @ 75
But many in our country have their pedals to the metal as they drive to the movie theater at the mall. The majority could give a shit about the one million dead Iraqi’s and 4 million refugees. You know this is the brutal and frightening truth.
This numbness, the living in the bubble is why so many around the world fear us.
rwcole @ 105
Are you implying he’s not anatomically correct?
Eli @ 54
indeed …
House candidates are by far the best application of netroots force on the national level, presidential candidates, the least effective. Not only does our money go farthest, but the cycles are so much closer together, we can force change more rapidly. The down-side is that whenever we get really progressive people in there, all the powers that be seem to combine outside the House to fund a new opponent, and inside the house, to keep our people off important committees and assignments.
I just think we need to stay on top of the Waxman charge in re Blackwater… if State actually did commit a crime in re-executing that contract with the mercs, then we need hearings on that department and on Rice, at least as rigorous as the ones we did with justice.. and hopefully with more follow-through. It sounds to me that there is at least some possibility that this could end with Rice’s ouster
selise @ 102
I was pretty pessimistic, and the Democrats’ failure to act like an opposition party was another part of it. I didn’t think that the Republicans would overreach so badly that they couldn’t bury it all.
Blub @ 113
I agree. Blackwater et al need to be hammered down and disbanded before coming ashore over here.
Ann in AZ @ 105
Well, obviously I would prefer for us to be the ones doing the flushing, via primaries.
peanutbutter @ 99
Cheney gets impeached.
Bush, being congenitally incapable of actually doing something reasonable, submits a nominee for VP that stands no chance of being confirmed.
Bush is impeached while his VP nominee languishes.
lee5 @ 101
Phoenix…the article by Larry Johnson is good news. Will hold onto that “glimmer of hope”
Ed*ard Teller @ 111
We need to get progressives into a majority of the Democratic caucuses before we can fix the party leadership, right?
Dems aren’t going for impeachment because it’s not possible- an impeachment bill would never get through the house- and even if it did- it would die an ugly death in the senate…It’s not practical.
peanutbutter @ 115
Hammered…no shit!!! Gone. This country got rid of the Gestapo, well shoot, same difference. Not in my America. If they want a Homeland…go elsewhere…go..now…go..
Their thinking is deranged.
Eli @ 30
Oh hello, you bitter cranky smartass, I had to run out for a minute to scream. I’m back to tell you this girl digs decoupling, wait, I mean money, I mean votes.
Oh god, I think I need you to do the thinking for both of us tonight (channeling Ilsa from Casablanca).
selise @ 103
selise, this was what I was trying to say this morning; that our fate lies with the people, but also, that we need to share with as many of them as possible the kinds of things that people who meet here are aware of. Because we have been working at this for quite some time, I feel certain that we can also help other people find hope and a clear vision of what this nation could become, for the good, in future.
peanutbutter @ 99
Well then, that just gives you a third and possibly the best reason not to impeach, because then Cheney would be Pres.
John Dean did point out that both Bush/Cheney could be impeached at the same time, and I would think, unless you did both, it would be a futile exercise and probably unproductive in the end. All that would be accomplished would be sending the government into chaos.
The thing is, when the whole administration has been gamed and corrupted like this one has, it’s hard not to impeach the whole bunch of scalliwags and throw them all out. I think at this point, it’s what the country is striving for. Which brings us back to the whole point about a seachange or the pendulum swinging back.
LS @ 121
yep. We need to bury blackwater, and make sure they get no more contracts. But even more than that, I think there’s at least the hint here, in these latest developments, that the State Dept may be complicit in their crimes. If so, then this may be an opportunity to set into motion a chain of events that could lead to Condi’s sacking… leaving shrub and Lord Cheneymort all alone, in the dark
do-si-do @ 121
Decoupling? Is that, like, an anti-euphemism?
peanutbutter @ 115
I haven’t thought seriously about what you do w/ Blackwater and the other active evil doers …
throwing them all in jail is emotionally tempting.
you sure don’t want them coming home and keeping the same jobs, working for private security or law enforcement.
too bad there’s not a Cap’n Jack Sparrow among them…at least it would be a little easier on the eyes than Darth.
do-si-do @ 127
The real pirates are never as sexy as the make-believe ones.
Eli @ 119
That is one of the mottos at fdl, I believe.
rwcole @ 120
It won’t be impeachment. It will be resignations…one..by one…health reasons..one by one…sympathetic excuses…and pardons…one by one. If not, they will have a really big fight on their hands..
They are a relatively small group with extremist views, no longer supported.
History…they are soon to be history…a big, black spot on history.
Eli @ 122
You wrote it first, Eli, you tell me! Besides, I already told you you’re in charge of the thinking tonight…
maybe it’s an extra-euphemism, like the Prez has extra-constitutional powers.
rwcole @ 120
worth doing even if it fails.
Eli @ 129
Like the Dread Pirate Roberts . . . or is that Westley?
LS @ 131
yeah seems like that’ll be the game, coupled w/ one last desparate re-coup attempt …
OT: There’s an interesting post on dKos about Barbara Boxer’s sudden interest in meat safety. I pay attention, because I think our food supply is being dangerously consolidated and centralized. Where I live, most of the smaller meat processing plants have been regulated out of business in favor of the large corporate farms.
One wonders who is lobbying Boxer.
selise @ 132
I kinda lean in that direction as well – that the Democrats need to loudly declare their opposition to the Republican criminal enterprise. And the Republicans get to loudly declare their continuing support for it.
Blub @ 125
Slam Fuckin’ Dunk!!!!
Ed*ard Teller @ 36
ET, has Diane been here for a chat? If not [yet], have you contacted Howie about bringing her?
I’m sure there are many who’d like to support her.
lee5 @ 127
In colonial Latin American tradition, the rulers typically turned on the mercs and slaughtered ‘em, using other mercs (Brazil for example). In imperial China mercs usually got pardoned at the end of hostilities and given land, on condition that they agreed to be distributed so as to prevent their concentration in one area. In post-reform Hapsburg tradition, they were generally barred from settling in the lands in which they were employed, although there was a curious way around this restriction for merc officers who married locals.
selise @ 133
Yup.. defund the war/occupation with full funding for redeployment and conduct impeachment hearings between vetos.
Peterr @ 133
Well, we know where the Rodents Of Unusual Size are…
lee5 @ 135
They are a bunch of chickinsh*ts. Every one. Did you catch Cheenee standing behind someone within the camera’s view at the Clarence Thompson book unveiling. They are scared. They are B.S. I’m tired of it.
do-si-do @ 131
It’s just that I never thought of decoupling as the fun part…
Blub @ 140
slaughtering, not so good. dispersed w/ employment better …
Eli @ 142
I don’t believe they exist.
Get in their faces.
OT but such a pretty picture
Is there any Constitutional roadblock to pursuing a double impeachment? I am not aware of any, and we cannot expect the ‘founding fathers’ to have thought of everything. Should we not impeach both Bush and Cheney, then we will not have really solved anything.
Example must be made. If the law is to serve, in its application as deterrent, then this is the most timely use of the notion imaginable.
LS @ 143
nope — didn’t see that. they do seem real scared. i’m mindful of the admonition to always leave a trapped animal a way out …
At this point the only ways there’ll be an actual impeachment is if shrub/Cheneymort a) get caught having somebody killed, b) get caught tapping Reid/Pelosi/Hillary’s phones and/or c) attempt to suspend or disband congress. I assume that they’re smart enough not to attempt a, b or c.
David W. Bartoo @ 123
i think most people here are already doing that kind of work in real life (vs online)… or do you have something specific in mind that i don’t know about?
also, i don’t come here because i’m informed, i come here to be informed – through the back and forth, the disagreements, the wide variety of specialized knowledge…
Eli- well, I hope you have learned that if you need to discuss your personal relationships with women, you will take a deep breath before you “act out” at FDL. ;)
Kathryn in MA @ 148
Recorded by the Hubble’s Advanced Camera for Surveys, the image spans about 17 light-years.
lovely image. but i dont understand the process. how does one photograph an image spanning 17 light years?
peanutbutter @ 65
[snip]
It’s really hard to say. Everyone’s screaming about all the candidates’ platforms, but in my experience, the platform/campaign promises do not always reflect how the person will actually behave as president. I present to you one very well known example: the current Bush.
Right, but you can tell a lot by looking at their past performance (and that holds for W). Paul Krugman has some very good analysis of this, in which he also lays into the MSM for treating elections as a horse race (run by clothes horses) instead of carefully examining who the candidates are and what they’ve done.
Blub @ 150
A maybe. Not so sure about B or C.
Eureka Springs @ 141
i like the way you think.
All these stories coming out of airport security guards bullying and terrorizing travelers, police out of control, Blackwater mercs coming to US cities…supposed to frighten us. Instead it’s making Americans wake up, start with indignation, working up to anger. Then we’ll have some action. I think Cheney figured wrong about us.
perris @ 27
Great rant, but:
How come we’re SOOOO fucked?
*G*
lee5 @ 150
I hear you. I will point out the Goldsmith hearing. They are obsessed…they are scared that the legal ramifications will set them up for war crimes. Goldsmith said it. They are worried. There are legal ramifications to their actions. Kharma is a biatch!
David W. Bartoo @ 149
No constitutional roadblock, but a damned high political one. Even the most openminded Republicans will have a hard time handing power over to a President Nancy Pelosi.
More politically palatable would be to (a) impeach Cheney, (b) confirm a new “elder statesman” VP from the GOP, and (c) impeach Bush. This would let the GOP keep power for the balance of the term, while removing Bush/Cheney from office.
It may not be ideal, but it’s a whole lot more realistic.
rwcole @ 120
Well, this ought to surprise you, but I agree. The problem is I also find the alternative repugnant and morally lacking. That is to say, to do nothing by way of punishment for the growing volume of high crimes and misdemeanors that this administration is committing, what kind of message are you sending? What kind of precedents are you setting. That’s why I so strongly believed that Dems should have backed Feinsteins efforts to censure, and that’s why I am still disgusted that Dems don’t seem to have a spine, just like everybody has been saying.
Eli @ 144
Very ticklish subject, like withdrawing from Iraq. Call your doctor if the fun lasts longer than four years…like too much chocolate cake.
PeterK @ 155
I didn’t say that at #55.
Phoenix Woman @ 33
Here it is, guys!! IMHO, this is totally connected with
Sounds to me like the Dem leadership is finally getting the message…
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 154
It spans a very wide area because the objects in the image are so far away. If you take a picture of something on Earth that’s far away, like the other side of a valley, it will span a distance of many miles.
do-si-do @ 162
Too much chocolate cake? Now you’re just talking crazy.
OMG –
Speaking of pendula….
The Lake’s October 27 Book Salon?
Author Mark Penn -
yep, Hillary’s close adviser…head of Big Tobacco’s (and Big Oil’s – and Big K Street’s) BFF, Burston-Marsteller…..
the people BigOil hired to kill Bill’s carbon tax.
Eli @ 167
Too much chocolate cake? Now you’re just talking crazy.
I hear guys dig that…
PeterK @ 164
There was also that recent WaPo poll which spelled out that Americans are pissed off at Congress for *not* stopping the war.
Selise, Do you have a link to the Goldsmith hearings, por favor? I want to listen to them this weekend while away.
Mauimom @ 139
Working on it, my dear. Essentially, Diane Benson got noticed last year too late to become BlueAmerica, as much as some of us here pushed for her to be included.
This year, she’s running in the primary against a solid Dem, a former chair of the party, so until it becomes obvious that she is the real progressive in the mix, we’re on hold. Soon after October 15, when quarterly campaign info becomes available, I do believe Howie and Jane and the other BlueAmerica people will clearly see that Diane Benson is a marked contrast to the rest of the field here, and that she’s a credible candidate.
oopsies on the underlining on 168!
I guess it was my crazy talk that did it.
GTG guys! xo, dosido
Clearly, selise I have failed to communicate with you. Yes we come here to learn and most of us bring something with us. If you had checked the thread from this morning you might have found that I truly appreciate what you do in informing us, better than anyone I have encountered about actions (or non-actions) in the Congress which are great moment and import. If I have offended you then I apologize, most sincerely. But I feel you are being entirtely too dismissive of my thoughts and, to be honest with you, I do not understand why this is so. If we disagree at times and that is to be expected, I see no reason for ill-will. But, I too, work at many things to hopefully improve things in the world and have done so for at least as long as you have.
Kathryn in MA @ 148
Kathryn – did you see the animation of this image?
(half way down the page)
Riesz Fischer @ 166
Much closer to home . . .
NASA has a great little website to see when the International Space Station and/or Space Shuttle will be passing over your location. Plug in your city (or one nearby), and they’ll tell you when to go outside and where to look.
Tonight, we had a rare double appearance. Mrs Peterr, LittlePeterr, and I went outside and saw the ISS on two different orbits, about an hour and a half apart.
Wow.
Riesz Fischer @ 166
oh okay thank you.
I was thinking it photographed 17 light years happening ————but it refers to 17 light years i.e. speed of light = ’space mileage’……..
LS @ 164
Sorry, LS, I hadn’t done the “[snip]” correctly. It’s fixed now.
perhaps moveon needs to come right out and say that it will throw its money and donor base against any Dem who opposes withdrawal or supports escalation to war with Iran… that no dem who supports continued funding for Iraq or caves on war with Iran can win an endorsement for re-election.
Blub @ 177
Hey, I can’t see any reason why not. Not like they owe the wankers squat now.
demi @ 89
Let’s give ‘em Hugh’s list. Give ‘em a break.
LS @ 160
couldn’t happen to nicer folks :-)
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 154
aaaah……..
hmmmmmmmm…….
??????
dakine01 @ 117
And then the clock runs out with the elections.
It is an interesting scenario. I very much doubt we will get to see it happen, or what the ramifications (would the Senate/House ram through a more acceptable candidate, for example?
Ah, the lure of academic questions ;-)
Eli @ 169
Let’s hope they start paying attention to that too. More complicated to fix than civil liberties, but certainly possible. The wind has started to blow our way, and I sense a full gale coming on…
do-si-do @ 169
that’s pretty funny …
Light Year
Eureka Springs @ 170
I’m not Selise, but C-Span has been playing it. It is awesome. Whitehouse…sigh…wins the day at the very end…he is something else. Why…waaaaaa..can’t he be the one? Now? Waaaaaaaaaaa…..I want Whitehouse in the Whitehouse…isn’t it obvious????? Whitehouse? Hellllooooo??? Can we draft him?
PeterK @ 177
While they’re at it they should impeach Thomas and Scalia.
smapdi @ 175
So very amazing. Thank you very much for the site.
Blub @ 178
Donna Brazile is on the board of MoveOn.. But I like the idea..)
Much closer to home . . .
NASA has a great little website to see when the International Space Station and/or Space Shuttle will be passing over your location. Plug in your city (or one nearby), and they’ll tell you when to go outside and where to look.
Tonight, we had a rare double appearance. Mrs Peterr, LittlePeterr, and I went outside and saw the ISS on two different orbits, about an hour and a half apart.
Wow.
How cool!
Kathryn – did you see the animation of this image?
(half way down the page)
that has gone right into ‘favourites’
smapdi @ 175
that’s pretty cool! thanks.
PeterK @ 185
maybe, but I still think they need a BIG push.. one of the big pro-Dem groups needs to basically start dictating the rules of party conduct, so to speak, and, as Eli pointed out in #180, Moveon, for one, really doesn’t have anything to lose by setting out what those rules are. Unless this happens, expect more capitulations, failures of party discipline and general lameness. We Dems need a really harsh disciplinarian.. somebody willing to start holding back funds and endorsements from people who step off the progressive reservation.
Eureka Springs @ 170
here’s the 10/2 SJC hearing with goldsmith.
and here’s the list of audio files i’ve posted so far.
enjoy!
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 192
It’s a sign!
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 154
What that means is that the distance from one side of what you see to the other is so large that it takes light 17 years to get across. The picture itself is taken with light that is heading toward us, so the rays from either side converge to the Hubble camera which can thus capture them at the same instant. That help?
Peterr @ 161
I am merely concerned that impeachment will be
considered ‘undoable’ by any means and that would leave us even more vulnerable and at even greater risk in future. I am totally for a ‘realistic’ solution so long as it is actually pursued.
PeterK @ 197
That is it! The 17 year anniversary gift!!! See!!
What that means is that the distance from one side of what you see to the other is so large that it takes light 17 years to get across. The picture itself is taken with light that is heading toward us, so the rays from either side converge to the Hubble camera which can thus capture them at the same instant. That help?
yes thanks.
LS @ 197
oy. don’t know if i can take too many more signs!
Blub @ 194
I agree, the public opinion gives leverage, but somebody has to guide the process, that’s for sure…
David W. Bartoo @ 197
Didn’t hurt the Republicans.
smapdi @ 186
grazie!
“Didn’t hurt the goopers”
Well it led to Al Gore winning the presidency.
selise @ 195
Thank you so much!
selise @ 152
Thank you Selise for all you do,it is greatly appreciated. I really mean this.
David Bartoo I agree I appreciate the viewpoints that are shared here at FDL.
Thank you PeterK and Riesz Fischer – awesome stuff.
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 201
Dang, That distance is what I feel I’ve traveled since I wed my better half, 17 years ago, tomorrow…!!! *g*
LOL:
start off guffawing vociferously at Larry ‘heteroheterohetero’ Craig and end up immersed in light years!!!
rwcole @ 204
Should a lightweight like Dubya even come *close*?
Plus the case for impeaching Bush/Cheney is a lot less obviously trivial than the case against Clinton was.
Oh might Modz–something wrong with my 202?? It has a big black box in front of it…
CTuttle @ 209
congratulations!
we are stardust
we are golden
we are million year old carbon
and we’ve got to get ourselves
back to the garden…….
CTuttle @ 210
*raising a glass*
To anniversaries!
*ding*
PeterK @ 213
Mac or PC and which browser are you using?
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 214
The 17 kinda grabbed my attention…!!! *g*
Blub @ 194
(I’m trying this again). Yes I agree. Public opinion gives leverage, but it has to be channeled into action to make a difference. So don’t stop pushing!!
Naomi Wolf has some amazing things to say today. Here are just a few of her recommendations.
“Everyone, it has been an honor to be part of this discussion and this community. I plan to remain part of it. I have to go pick up my kids now but I do feel heartened; now is the time to act, to speak up, to confront; it does not get safer unless we do so. Please all of you take on what the founderssaw as the patriots’ task — not to wait for others to act and lead but to do so ourselves. I do see movement when millions of Americans drive awareness and action at once — even now — and I know from history that no desport on earth can stand up against millions mobilized in defense of freedom. Let’s roll.”
http://www.firedoglake.com/200…../#comments
That blog is worth the read. Thank you Jane for bringing her to FDL
I agree that a lot of Republicans are upset at Bush for his attacks on civil liberties, but I think you’re wrong that people would switch over to the Democrats for that reason. I don’t see Hillary Clinton out there talking about the need to restore civil liberties. In fact, she voted for a lot of the bills that have taken them away. Given a choice between Rudy and Hillary, I think people who lean a little to the conservative side would go with Rudy without hesitation. There’s just no reason to vote for Hillary, and a long list of reasons not to. Any other Democrat would do better.
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 154
With a really really slow lens speed.
It’s a mighty auspicious eve, FISA was delayed, and, the Evil Empire is in a two game deficit…!!! Which one is the better news…???
DrenchedOtter @ 218
This is the fatal flaw with the Democratic strategy, and why I think progressives will do better than establishment Democrats.
But if we can’t elect a Democratic president next year, we’re even more screwed than we are now – especially if it’s an authoritarian like Rudy.
RBG @ 216
What happened to Big Mitch…???
Pach is upstairs…and I am a moron about how to link to it.
David W. Bartoo @ 173
you haven’t offended me – not at all. i was just trying to figure out what you were frustrated about (here – from your and laura’s conversation this morning):
i didn’t understand what it is you want us/me to do… perhaps it is obvious to all but me (i don’t mind admitting to be a bit dense sometimes). but our/my unwillingness to have the discussion was a problem for you, so this morning i was trying to be open to that… without knowing exactly what it is that you want to be done or discussed. i’m sorry if my pushing for more info / to understand was done poorly and just made you feel worse.
again.. so sorry to have made things worse… will back off now…
Eli @ 223
Rove’s comment about “Fatal Flaw” freaked me out.
PeterK @ 213
In Firefox, you may see those boxes aligned with YouTube videos from above. Try increasing or decreasing typeface size and they will shift up or down. Or switch to Safari.
RBG @ 216
FIrefox on a Mac
Eli @ [can’t recall]:
Example #1: Lieberfool
Ed*ard Teller @ 172:
I learned about her in 2006 from my friend-from-college who lives in Fairbanks. We “exchanged donations:” I gave to Diane and he gave to Andrew Duck (MD-6).
David W. Bartoo @ 174 –
p.s.
i expect you’ve done it far longer than i have. i only started in 2001… so i have a lot of amends to make for the years of not paying much attention.
Some more of Naomi Wolf’s suggestions today at FDL
Ok. Other successful democracy movements:
Called for mass nationwide strikes that brought the country to a halt.
Had citizens by the millions confront representatives to impeach (or the equivalent) and prosecute. It is not enough to remove people planning a coup, they must be kept behind bars.
Had citizens contact members of the judiciary to alert them to the danger — very important.
Had citizens acting as reporters to distribute samizdat — but bloggers must shift from focussing on opinion to focussing on education and mobilization
Educated populations — our message is that the worst terror threat isn’t as scary as life in America without the rule of law to protect us
IT IS VERY DANGEROUS IN A CLOSING SOCIETY FOR PEOPLE TO DRAW INWARD. there is a short window for action that can be successful but it has to be in the next six months and it has to be MASS — I mean in the millions
so it has to be across the political spectrum.
Eli @ 223
Fatal indeed … I think we’ll look back on September ‘07 as the time the Democrats peaked and the Republicans started to come back. My guess is the Republicans will win easily in ‘08, simply because the Democrats refuse to engage in the issues and insist on running on superficialities like “being a woman” and “bringing back Bill” and such.
I actually don’t fear a Giuliani presidency, even though I don’t like the idea. Granted he’s a wild man, but I think he’s less of a loose cannon than Clinton. Thanks for replying back.
DrenchedOtter @ 233
If we’re still in Iraq, which I believe we will be, then I don’t think the Republicans are going to do real well next year. But the Democrats are squandering a huge landslide slamdunk opportunity.
Phoenix Woman @ 33
On face value Mr. Johnson’s read about his BRIEFINGS to our politicians is hopeful.
Unfortunately, it’s filled with more determinist bullshit wherin USA has ‘interests’ we need to accept and protect.
What mockery of liberalism.
What mockery of the public’s mindset he abuses.
Our fucking ‘interests’ are what GOT our sad asses in this shitmire.
Until Big Biz and The War Machine are put into their place, and control is returned to the masses and their dutifully elected representatives, the Larry Johnson’s of our world will only help to perpetuate foreign policy adventurism which in turn profits Big Biz and The War Machine.
Progressivism my ass.
Larry Johnson can brief my . . . (fill in blank).
Harumph.
The Hague, The Hague, The Hague! Everybody to The Hague! Now!
Phoenix Woman @ 35
PW, and thanks Eli for a spot on thread, PW, yer on it. But we really need to push the mass for all it’s worth.
We give an inch, we lose miles of our lives.
We really need to be brutal and hold people accountable for how we got here, while we rebuild our Constitution, and rebuild the belief amongst our elected officials that IT is the guiding light, NOT THEM!!!!
LS @ 38
Ahhhh I LOVE the smell of HOPE! It goes well with my cheap merlot . . .
*G*
Eli @ 234
I would agree if the Democrats wanted to get out of Iraq. But 80% of Senate Democrats voted for the “surge”. I think it’s pretty clear that about the same number are going to vote every penny Bush wants for continuing the war when it comes up for a vote in a few weeks. That’s why I think we’ll see last month as the high point for the Democrats — when Democrats came back from the recess and couldn’t even muster a majority of the party to vote against the war, I think anyone who follows politics concluded the Democrats are just pretending to want to stop the war. The recent debate just put a period to it. Without Iraq as an issue, what is going to convince a swing voter to vote Democrat instead of Republican?
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 42
Stupendously brilliant and simple!!!
We gots us ourselves a MAJOR Divide!
That in and of itself, would foreshadow difficult times ahead, I fear . . . the struggle to fill that divide, or broach it, will NOT be a peaceful one most likely.
But then, it’s ALL on the edge right now.
We live in interesting times, and they get more and more interesting as this admin winds its way to its end, and the masses twist and turn and fall sway to forces not in their control.
I’m gonna be THRILLED to make it thru the primary’s and the General Erection and still have grocery stores open!!
*G*
DrenchedOtter @ 239
I don’t agree. The momentum (finally, finally!) is our way. One possible scenario: civil liberties (FISA, Guantanamo, etc) first. Then, with gathering strength, a real change in war policy, led by progressives. This could happen quite fast (months) IMO. Once the pieces are in place, things go together quickly.
larue @ 237
Wouldn’t it be great if Howard Dean actually got credit for (a) being right and (b) being one of the legitimate leaders of the party? Oops, that would conflict with “whoever collects the most payoffs from special interest groups has to be the winner”. Damn, I feel the cynical genie paying a visit … thanks Eli for a good discussion!
PeterK @ 241
I hope you’re right, but I think what you’re talking about only would have an effect within the Democratic Party, and the party apparatus is right now focused on suppressing discussion and trying to crown an early victor in order to save money for the general election. I think that’s a colossal mistake, because it will result in probably the weakest of the presidential candidates being nominated, without having fielded any opposition. She will then be creamed by the Republican attack machine. The right approach, I believe, would be for the Democrats to have a full and open discussion now about just the issues you raise, then go into the general election from a position of strength. I don’t think they’ll do it, though.
Millineryman @ 51
Huh, the dem’s are SO not bringing back any Supreme Court progressives want.
Might as well breathe fully!!!
If we get Habeus back and protect Roe v Wade, and that Brown v Board of Ed, I’ll be phreaking DELIGHTED!
But I fear, they are under fire, and almost lost . . . and I don’t trust the dem’s to restore them, by ANY means.
Certainly NOT Shilary.
selise @ 226
selise, my frustration was only that I do spend a great deal of time speaking with many people, face to face, and I think that the need for a more coherent progressive vision, that is shared and discussed broadly, would be helpful. It seemed to me that Laura had touched upon some important and useful aspects of that and other facets of the ‘collective’ awareness which surrounds the kinds of discussions which happen here quite often. Sometimes, an OT idea seems to catch hold of the collective imagination and blossoms into a coalescing form of possibility and purpose. I am intrigued when such things happen and wondered what Laura had perceived. Naomi Wolf’s’list’ of what she believes necessary to broader enlightenment, which she shared today, seemed to encompass actions which might well have resonance here. I am concerned that the outrages which afflict us all, time after time, not only simply raise blood pressures but also often lower the threshold of patience
and serenity necessary to useful communication.
I guess that I felt that that was happening between us, speaking really only for myself, as I felt I was slipping into talking at you rather than with you. As I value your grasp of complexity and also of subtlety, I didn’t
relish losing the perspective which I strive for and that perspective of rare sensibility which I ascribe to you.
I realize that an important function of FDL is to allow people to react and release their frustration with the truly disheartening realities we all face in our concerns for and love for people, and, in fact for all of life, as well as those principles and purposes we feel our nation should embrace and practice.
FDL allows us an opportunity to realize that we do not suffer alone, or struggle alone in confronting what sometimes is nothing less than daunting, mind-numbing despair.
It is because I value the community which is to be found here that I visit whenever time allows. I am certain that is true for everyone. It is the openness, the tolerance and the excellence of FDL which makes it a beacon, if you will, in a very dark and frightening time. selise, you are one of the brightest of souls here shining, and when, some time ago it appeared to me that you were considering leaving, I was appalled.
Sorry to have gone on at such length, but It is simply that honesty is a commodity which is valued highly here, I believe, and openness as well. There is not much that may not be discussed here, including confusion and despair. I also hope that larger progressive strategies and tactics might also have hearing and discussion here. That is the gist of what I have sought to put on the table. I appreciate your patience with me, selise and I look forward with anticipation to future opportunities to learn from you and with you.
David W. Bartoo @ 245
If I might interject here, I completely agree. Thank you, David and Selise.
RBG @ 246
Is it too late to concur with ya’ll…!!! *g*
LS @ 55
Not sure what YOU’VE been drinking, but she IS the right wing conspiracy!!!
She is ONE of them! And so is Bill.
We were just fooled real good back then. What Bill did to open the gateways legislative wise, for what we are suffering from THIS admin, is well chronicled.
They are Southerners. Old School Southerners, too. They BELIEVE it’s America’s destiny to rule. And they want to be the rulers. As much as the Bushies do.
Fool Aid, no matter the sugar content, is still deadly to swill. Don’t be fooled again!!!! *G*
Blub @ 81
For a moment, my heart soared.
And then I realized the DOJ and the AG’s Office are still fully comprimized.
Bright shiny distractions from the REAL issues at hand.
How do the masses get their republic back? How do we enable a growing middle class with jobs here at home beyond minimum wages?
Ann in AZ @ 92
I can’t believe a career pol like Mz. Nancy ever HAS those concerns, Ann. Yer projecting some kind of values on a type of our species (politician) that has proven time and time again, they don’t HAVE those values!!!
But what if Hilary and Nancy struck a deal? And struck the deal with ShrubCo, too?
No impeachment.
Nancy gets the nod for VP.
Women Sweep!!!!
And the two of them will be as bad as any ShrubCo as they set about the process to pay the Bushes their oil rights and perpetuate the Big Bro, Big Biz, and War Machine.
I’m LONG past my thenfound fem joy when Geraldine Ferraro was running. I met my wife that summer, and she married me cuz of my support for Ferraro. I was with NPR part time in San Mateo. I KNEW what was going on, I was informed.
Now my wife and I concur, Shilary and Nancy and Diane Feinstein and even Babs Boxer and Shirley Matsui and many others who continue to ride the NOW wave have LONG sold out their soul sisters, and the rest of the nation too.
Don’t be decieved, and don’t fall for the gender trap. They don’t have YOUR best interest at heart. And they have PROVEN it, with their votes, and their representation.
Don’t be fooled! The gender of a politician means NOTHING, other than a means to decieve.
Eli @ 93
WAHFUCKINGHOOO ELI!!!
*G*
LS @ 55
She has already said we must be prepared for “the next war”. What exactly do you think she was talking about if not Iran?
Bill was a decent Liberal Republican / Conservative Southern Dem. He was alright for the times. We had peace, not too many problems clearly in sight and he paid off some debts. Simple, decent.
But, he also put in NAFTA without protections for environment and workers. He also kicked poor people off welfare. He took our military into Kosovo illegally and against the public’s will. It wasn’t all milk and honey.
“We” Kemosabe? I think most of us here at the lake (wherever we were at the time) saw it when they savaged Bill Clinton in the ’90s and most clearly in Nov. 2000 when Bush & Co. stole their way into power.
It’s been pretty blatant stuff for some time now. Hillary just saw it up close and personal.
But, if she isn’t part of it, then why has she indicated she’ll continue their position in Iraq and via Iran? She has also never said she’ll withdraw completely from Iraq, though she does ask her crowds if THEY are ready to get out.
Hillary was a WalMart board member, has an anti-union advisor in Mark Penn, wrote legislation preventing flag burning (anti freedom of speech), voted for the AUMF for Iraq (which I actually forgive if she trusted the Bush admin intell.), voted for the Kyl-Lieberman amendment to declare part of the Iranian military a terrorist organization and said she wouldn’t actually implement health care reform until her second term.
What’s not to like, eh?
I think her “American Dream” program is for JUST HER and not the rest of us.
MarkH @ 252
Mark H, you wouldn’t happen to be a bluegrass/newgrass lovin sohn from Sonoma, CA would ya? *G*
Blub @ 81
Wow. Shocking. But, it’s not like they’ve ever done *that* before.
Now, about Cheney…
larue @ 253
‘fraid not. I’m from WV.
rwcole @ 120
An impeachment bill only requires a majority in the House and is not subject to any sort of super-majority blocking.
And it does require a two-thirds vote of those present to pass in the Senate…a steep grade…but one that was even likely in the Senate when Nixon was President and re-elected by a vastly larger majority (and Democrats also only held a bare majority of Senate seats then as well).
The actual impeachment trial and the upcoming elections would make it very difficult for Republicans to deny the “truth”.
Personally I believe that one should do what is called for in the Constitution REGARDLESS of whether the Republican Senators vote infavor. It is UPHOLDING the CONSTITUTION. It is an issue of PERSONAL ethics. If a President or other member of the Executive violates the Constitution they should be impeached.
And I also believe that even if the POLITICS are such that an impeachment isn’t possible in 2007-8 that one should still occur AFTER their terms end removing any “emoluments” of office that these individuals may have as a consequence of their “service” and removing any further opportunity for them to benefit from future office or contracts wiuth the US Government.
Kills off their chance to use their connections as lobbyists.
David W. Bartoo @ 245 –
thank you for taking the time to write such a thoughtful response. don’t know if you will see this comment, as i’m epu’ed by hours, but did want to say “thank you” regardless.
and if you do see this, and want to continue a discussion offline (now or at some future point), please feel free to email me at speakeasy dot net.
peace.
Why is a progressive president unlikely? Clinton holds an office with the DLC, yes, and can’t be considered a fan of the progressive caucus, say, but Obama and Edwards are both progressive. Both have smart campaigns. Both have good ground games in Iowa. Obama has better poll numbers than Edwards in Dem vs, Dem, but Edwards has betterpoll stats for a Dem vs. Republican matchup.