The entire article in the New York Times about the secret torture memo (”Torture Memo 2.0″ as Jack Balkin calls it) is appalling, but this particular section really struck a nerve:
With virtually no experience in interrogations, the C.I.A. had constructed its program in a few harried months by consulting Egyptian and Saudi intelligence officials and copying Soviet interrogation methods long used in training American servicemen to withstand capture. The agency officers questioning prisoners constantly sought advice from lawyers thousands of miles away.
“We were getting asked about combinations — ‘Can we do this and this at the same time?’” recalled Paul C. Kelbaugh, a veteran intelligence lawyer who was deputy legal counsel at the C.I.A.’s Counterterrorist Center from 2001 to 2003.
Interrogators were worried that even approved techniques had such a painful, multiplying effect when combined that they might cross the legal line, Mr. Kelbaugh said. He recalled agency officers asking: “These approved techniques, say, withholding food, and 50-degree temperature — can they be combined?” Or “Do I have to do the less extreme before the more extreme?”
The questions came more frequently, Mr. Kelbaugh said, as word spread about a C.I.A. inspector general inquiry unrelated to the war on terrorism. Some veteran C.I.A. officers came under scrutiny because they were advisers to Peruvian officers who in early 2001 shot down a missionary flight they had mistaken for a drug-running aircraft. The Americans were not charged with crimes, but they endured three years of investigation, saw their careers derailed and ran up big legal bills.
That experience shook the Qaeda interrogation team, Mr. Kelbaugh said. “You think you’re making a difference and maybe saving 3,000 American lives from the next attack. And someone tells you, ‘Well, that guidance was a little vague, and the inspector general wants to talk to you,’” he recalled. “We couldn’t tell them, ‘Do the best you can,’ because the people who did the best they could in Peru were looking at a grand jury.”
Now I don’t know that I’m buying that the CIA has “virtually no experience in interrogations” — many, including Naomi Klein in her book The Shock Doctrine, have documented the research into torture, brainwashing and interrogation techniques that the CIA has been refining and exporting since the 50s. But beyond that, the statement by Kelbaugh highlights how enabling the whole “war on terror” framework has become. These individuals have put their consciences in check, comfortable in the notion that what they do “maybe saving 3,000 American lives.” Really, what they’re worried about is having their “careers derailed” and running up “big legal bills.”
That we have become a nation of sanctioned torturers doesn’t even seem to graze them.
As Glenn Greenwald notes, we’ve known that torture has been going on for a while. There’s nothing new about that. But outrage with which these revelations should be greeted is, again, blunted by an acquiescence toward anything that is offered up in the name of the endless war on terror, and our “leaders” appear content to negotiate away their own power and avoid anything that smacks of a political battle.
Says Glenn:
One does not expect an administration to imprison U.S. citizens with no process, or to proclaim explicitly the right to break the law, or to systematically adopt policies of torture. For that reason, it is not surprising that it would take some time for the reaction to catch up to the full extent of the wrongdoing.
But we are now way past the point where that excuse is plausible. Anyone paying even minimal attention is well aware of exactly how radical and corrupt and lawless this administration is. We all know what has happened to our standing in the world, to our national character and our core political values, as a result of the previously unthinkable policies the Bush administration has relentlessly pursued. Ignorance or incredulity can no longer explain our acquiescence. Accommodating and protecting the lawbreaking of high Bush officials is widely seen by our Beltway elite as a duty of bipartisanship, a hallmark of Seriousness.
It’s ironic, as many have noted, that today is the same day Leahy indicated he was going to cave on his request for documents from the Bush Administration before approving Mukasey. That’s great. First Leahy wanted documents regarding the USA scandal and warrantless wiretapping. Then he backed down and said he would “settle for material about interrogation of suspected terrorists and warrantless wiretapping.” Now he’s willing to chuck the whole bucket. Because George Bush what, won’t give them to him? This is headline news? Why ask for them in the first place? Is kabuki all the rage in capitol hill bars these days?
These people are, through their passivity, their unwillingness to uphold the principles they were elected to enforce, complicit in the recklessness and lawlessness of Bush Administration. And until they start using their power to force some answers and stop these horrible abuses, they have blood on their hands and the suffering these victims on their consciences. In order to sleep at night perhaps they, too, tell themselves that they’re “preventing the deaths of 3,000 Americans” with their “comity” and their “bipartisanship.”
Dream on.
Related posts:
- The July 2002 Torture Training Session
- Hoekstra Says Obama Must Torture; SSCI GOP Walks Out on Dems
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes David Cole, Torture Memos: Rationalizing the Unthinkable
- Torture is Counterproductive to Interrogation, Cognitive Study Says
- Fred Hiatt Wants to Know How Well Torture Works, But We Need a Volunteer





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Jane!
JANE!
I’m ENraged.
BADA BING!
{{{Jane}}}
See you all shortly. I have to shift workstations…*g*
“virtually no experience in interrogations”
Clearly this is bullshit. Military and government entities have studied ‘advanced interrogation techniques’ since the dawn of time, and the CIA experiments with LSD and other drugs belies this.
One almost could conclude that the statement was tongue-in-cheek, or ironic, except it’s in the, you know, NYTimes.
“In order to sleep at night perhaps they, too, tell themselves that they’re “preventing the deaths of 3,000 Americans” with their “comity” and their “bipartisanship.””
The Bush administration (and the enablers in Congress who look the other way) can torture as many people as they want; it’s not going to stop another attack neither here nor abroad.
Dang. Missed it again.
Froomkin lede’s with torture story today as well.
This country is fucked. up.
Addington, Yoo, and Co. will not be happy until they repeal the ban on cruel and unusual punishment.
“It ain’t torture less’n I SAYS it is”
GW Clusterfuck
Peterr @ 12
Those who deserve it most, no less.
yeah- it wou;ld be interesting to see if Addington and Yoo think it’s torture if it’s happenin to THEM.
Toby Wollin @ 9
Hang in there, you’ll get one!
ZED!
Dang! Y’all are fast ;-)
Sigh. This disingenuousness (”oh noes! the legal bills!!! maybe I should slow down!”) is beyond infuriating.
“Do the best you can” does not — and should not — insulate someone against being accountable for their actions. Not in the CIA, not in the DOJ, and not in the Committee on the Judiciary of the Senate of the United States.
What the Hell. Leahy was acting like a tough guy with integrity still intact. If he backs down to demanding documents, intercepts etc. that will cut the thread of hope that I am clinging to. The thread that is almost non-existent. Some of us are still hoping that justice prevails in these cases.
If congress passes any kind of “retroactive immunity” for the communication companies that have participated in wiretapping, or data mining need to be I will have snap. Enough! Leahy and Waxman have convinced me that they are really tying to re-introduce the idea of oversight. Will Leahy cave..I sure as hell hope not.
AHH, yes, let us not forget who let this shit go forward;
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/….._1004.html
Jane:
KUBARK
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/N…../index.htm
http://www.kimsoft.com/2000/kubark.htm
Jane,
The DLC’ers are a bunch of enabling, co-dependent wusses, aren’t they?
Knowing this crap is going on, and not putting it on the line to stop it, puts the Democratic leadership on a higher ethical plane how, exactly?
HMMM,
Karl Roves assistant is resigning,no reason given by Whitehouse.
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/…..s-resigns/
Jane and all. Have you seen this one. Another soldier shot in head. Must be terribly frightening for soldiers thinking about coming forward. Forget the idea that you might be dishonorably discharged, harassed or even thrown in jail. No you will get shot
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/….._1004.html
Soldier once warned family: Investigate if I die
David Edwards and Nick Juliano
Published: Thursday October 4, 2007
To paraphrase Ed Meese:
If they were not guilty, they would not be suspects. Any torture they get is well deserved.
It seems the cauldron in which the Bush Administration cooked the books and boiled their enemies is starting to spring a few leaks. Eventually, truth will rise above falsehood and the whole sordid mess will become obvious to all of us. It takes messengers like Jane to open our eyes and make us focus on the morass. Unpleasant as this may be, it is the first step in rectifying those grievous misdeeds.
I wonder what sorts of discussions we’ll be having two years from now.
Kathleen @ 24
Calling the Tillman Family…
I had just read that when I got a call from someone at DCCC today asking for money. I asked if Rahm Emmanuel had come out in favor of impeachment. In reply, the nice lady tried to explain to me what Congress was. Honest to god. I told her when her boss Rahm Emmanuel voted for an impeachment inquiry for all the unconstitutional stuff Bush and his administration were doing, to call me back. She said ok and hung up.
The person’s boss was actually Dean.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 27
I imagine you and me will be in some sort of camp. A camp with an old-school patriotic name. Camp Freedom. Camp Benjamin Franklin. Something like that. Maybe we’ll be in the same camp, and we can hang out by the barbed wire and chat about the old days and the internests and so forth. Until the guards come and taser us.
And there is more.
Did Secretary Rice Know About Gonzales’ Secret ‘05 Legal Opinion On Torture?
snip
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/…..cret-memo/
rwcole @ 30
Oh. Well, I feel like an ass, then.
I thought DCCC was Emanuel, and Dean was DNC. She said specifically it was about raising money for congressional candidates. She was not from the DNC.
The techniques used to “train American servicemen” are well documented, and were standard fare for pretty much the duration of the cold war. Most o the POW’s who returned from Vietnam and wrote about their experiences discussed them in excruciating detail. I too do not buy that the CIA was unable to figure this out; they have been in this business since they were the OSS, and likely before that in some incarnation.
No, the CIA was worried that one day they’d have to answer for their conduct, but I guess now that we have a Democratic Congress that just rolls over and presents it’s Rosebud to Glorious Leader we might as well just appoint the little shit leader for life and get it over with.
Leahy has lost my respect, as have almost every Democrat in the Senate except Feingold, Harkin and Sanders. The rest can go fuck themeselves
Sorry for the outrage. When will this end, or are we “still keeping our (mythical) powder dry” waiting for the consultants to tell them when to Seize the Day?
Asshats.
rwcole @ 30
The DCCC is the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, and it answers only the the House Democratic Caucus, not the Democratic National Committee. Until this past year, Rahm headed it up, but the chair now is Chris Van Hollen. Rahm, as the chair of the Democratic Caucus, is Van Hollen’s boss.
cleter @ 33
Don’t — you were right. See my #35
I wasn’t nasty to the nice lady, but I was clear that I gave money directly to candidates because I didn’t always like the way the DCCC divvied up money. Then I asked about the impeachment thing.
JH:
hear hear!
George Bush is the Jeffry Dalmer President.
rwcole @ 13
This really brings to mind a conversation I had with a now ex-boyfriend a few months ago. I believe the conversation started when I mentioned the Supreme Court decision that the Administration must comply with article 3 of the Geneva Conventions. After several years of holding back his true feelings about politics because he was well aware of my feelings on the subject, this time he said, “Yeah, we really got to get rid of those Geneva Conventions!) So I said, “So you believe we should torture?” and he said, “Well, what do you consider torture?” I said, “Those pictures from Abu Ghraib, those are torture.” He then replied, “That wasn’t torture! We did a hell of a lot worse than that in Vietnam!” Believe it or not, things went downhill from there, and got into talk about throwing Viet Cong out of planes, and of course, me pointing out that wasn’t torture it was murder. It was a 3 year relationship; I never would see him again, and never will. But I’m constantly amazed at how many people think this stuff is okay as long as you don’t get caught.
cleter @ 31
I believe those institutions are referred to, quaintly, as “re-education” camps.
Cleter
Oops- got em mixed up.
This is the thing that gets me so torqued about Goldsmith’s apologia for the administation — that they are apparently scared to death that another attack will happen. So evidently that makes all their illegal, immoral, incompetent conduct ok. This is reprehensible logic, utterly utterly sickening, and ultimately indefensible. If things are that bad and that frightening, then wouldn’t they feel compelled to do the best damn job possible and not keep going back to incompetent hacks over and over and over again? Even on its face, this argument is total b*llsh*t.
I always had respect for Leahy, but this post and the earlier one are making me start to think that he, and most of our other Democratic “leaders”, apparently think that when the specific personality associated with Bush Admin. abuses is gone, we’ll all be pacified. Rumsfeld, Gonzales, Rove, those are the people they are focusing on, rather than the more important principles being violated daily by Bush.
It’s like they’re saying, “OK, you didn’t like Alberto, well, he’s gone. Now can we move on to something else?”
It’s really part and parcel of the whole Washington clique-type view of the world, but I thought people like Leahy were above that.
Great post, as always, Jane. Hope all is well.
When future people look back at these times, the spineless Dems will be viewed with almost as much contempt as the current administration for their (the Dems) complicity by virtue of their inaction against these crimes. The Vichy French come to mind as a comparison.
Agency officers do not recognize torture when they see it? The legality of torture, and not the morality, is their question? An entire government refuses to act responsibly as abuse after abuse by the Administration sees the light of day?
Bush&Company should have been put on notice when they began smashing windows and before going on to commit every crime against democracy that furthered their cause.
Words fail.
Ann in AZ @ 40
I don’t think it has anything to do with getting caught. People think it’s ok because everybody does it. When I say everybody I don;t mean “everyone in the world” all sides do it. It’s like strategic bombing, we know it serves to unite those being bombed but we just keep doing it.
I agree with Doc. The problem isn’t this guy or that guy. It’s endemic to the administration.
Start adding the names of these enablers to Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, et al. to be tried for war crimes.
snip
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…..1321/78325
Crap!
and no edit button!
Torture might be the stake that kills the Beast.
And Rush says you’re only a Real Soldier if you are Unquestioningly Loyal to Bush’s Ideology.
Larry Craig won’t resign because there’s a subpoena waiting for him.
Bush and his Minions are Lawless Haters.
“…We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security….”
Let’s read that again, shall we?
“But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security….”
It’s our duty, our responsibility to resist the tyranny of our current government. It’s right there in the Declaration of Independence.
If there’s another 9/11, americans will be DEMANDINGZ torture. That makes the pure politics of this thing complicated.
Haven’t been commenting in awhile, but I still lurk as much as possible. A couple of questions:
Anyone seen the missing 8.8 billion? (Is anyone looking?)
How’s that request for the missing e-mails coming along?
Thanks to everyone here that fights through the disgust and setbacks to keep fighting the good fight.
Go Indians! (Although they’ve got to get rid of the mascot)
Let’s see…
Confidential informants and surveillance.
Computerized data mining.
Secret arrests.
Torture.
Trial by military commission, if at all.
If it walks like a Phoenix, and quacks like a Phoenix…it’s a Phoenix.
The Phoenix Program.
Coming soon to a detention center near you.
DefendOurConstitution @ 25
See, that’s our problem. If only we’d use the right tactics on the culprits, the lawbreakers within the WH would just admit their guilt and subject themselves to the full measure of the law to avoid the torture they were suffering while we tried to get at the truth. See, you have to be relentless and brutal. That’s the ticket!
rwcole @ 54
If there’s another 9/11, Americans will see that torture doesn’t work. The military already knows this. Torture is being carried out because it amuses the Preznit.
Miners in South Africa trapped
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200…..o9lSus0NUE
Utah Miner Families speak out! On Bob Murray: ”
I can’t stand to listen to the man.”
By: John Amato on Thursday, October 4th, 2007
http://www.crooksandliars.com/…..o-the-man/
All trapped miners rescued in South Africa
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..th-africa- mine/
Badwater
If attacked again with deaths in the thousands- Americans will be scared shitless and will tend to swallow the bullshit thrown at em- or so it seems to me.
OT, but wanted to share Wide Stance’s bad news with everyone –
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/….._1004.html
cleter @ 31
What I keep seeing in my mind is that knock on the door:
“Congratulations, you’ve just won a free trip to Afghanistan! You’re leaving tonight, and the movers will be here tomorrow. Now, do you have off-site storage?”
Who needs camps, when they have two countries to
dumphide people in?What amazes me is that there is an argument about torture at all. Torture, like murder (as opposed to fighting an armed opponent on a battlefield) is anathema to a civilized society under the rule of law. If, as the Bushies argue, we must torture people in self-defense, to save lives in an imminent terrorist attack, they should be required to prove in an impartial court of law that it was absolutely necessary. If they can’t, they’re punished. But you don’t make torture (or murder) legal because there are rare cases of self-defense.
Very sorry to hear about Wide Stance and his legal problems. I encourage him not to let a judges ruling keep him from claiming his rightful place.
RonD @ 56
From your Wiki link:
Thanks for that.
BTW, I clicked on your website link and got a “server not found” error. Is your site under revamp?
mc @ 53
Thanks mc. After all these years, that bit of parchment holds up beautifully. It is our duty to put a stop to this madness.
Want to talk torture and corruption? Talk Kissinger and Pinochet.
Pinochet family and friends held on corruption charges
http://www.guardian.co.uk/chil…..19,00.html
Kissinger Encouraged Chile’s Brutal Repression, New Documents Show
http://albionmonitor.net/9903a/kissingerchile.html
Kathleen @ 24
How horrible.
No do-overs in Minnesota.
Now, about that ethics investigation…
PERINO at today’s presser: “Our end is that we don’t … our means are that we don’t torture, and the end result is that we’ve not had a terrorist attack.”
So…let me get this straight. We have not had another terrorist attack, because we don’t torture? Then what the hell are you doing to them – killing them?
Wonder if we’ll ever know what kind of back room deal Leahy & Schumer made with the WH over Mukasey.
Kissinger has been advising the Bush adminstration for years.
Every time the subject of torture comes up, some one must say, in words of one syllable, simple declarative sentences, that the reason for torture is to get the subject to say the false things that you want him to say. It is NOT to extract genuine information.
The other purpose of torture is some form of sadism or revenge.
And the purpose of the gov keeping it secret is to keep its own citizens from knowing. Don’t think for a second that Iraqis don’t know the U.S. tortures just because the U.S. classifies the documents. Nope. The only dupes are U.S. voters, who believe the prez.
phred @ 66
I just saw “National Treasure,” a dopey (but fun) movie. Nicolas Cage quotes that excerpt from the Declaration and I thought it was quite appropriate for Jane’s post.
RonD @ 56
Not to be confused with a Phoenix Woman, of course.
One thing the Democratic “leadership” and THE front runner certainly does well. Alienating their base.
LS @ 70
“The comfy chair!”
Margot @ 68
How many soldiers have been shot by “friendly fire”? Tillman, the soldier who was shot a few weeks before the New York op-ed article was to appear in the Times. How many of these shootings are being investigated?
How many soldiers have been shot because they were going to come forward with what they know is really going on in Iraq?
Thank you JAne.
In reading the above I thought I was in some sort of twilight zone. Is this REALLY a discussion we are having? How in the heck have we evolved to a nation that can write pros and cons about committing torture?
These idiots in the WH, along with their ideologues not in 1600, are certifiably insane, are traitors, are criminals and are cruel immoral, unconscionable people that deserve to be excluded from society.
I cannot believe that even Boeing Pelosi would take these memos off the impeachment table. I think I am even more apoplectic than RevDeb. This is fuc**ng nuts.
Hi newtonusr.
It didn’t work for me either. I don’t know why. I’ve reloaded the address. In addition to that wiki page, there is a post on the subject at my place.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 72
Perhaps the French will render Hank back to Paris for, well, trial.
What a stain!
phred @ 43
News flash, another attack may happen anyway no matter what you do. The only difference is whether you still hold the moral high ground when it happens or if the rest of the world just feels like we deserved it.
I’d rather die free than live in fear. But I certainly don’t want to die in tyranny. What happened to courage?
Courage is saying that you’ll live by your ideals not matter what the risk. Compromising your principles out of fear is the definition of cowardice.
Diane @ 71
Short answer: uhhh nope
It’s especially appalling to have Senator Leahy backing down from his demands in connection with this particular AG nominee.
Judge Mukasey, as far as I’m concerned, is another one of the “Muslims are Guilty Until Proven Innocent” class of racist, nationalist authoritarians now populating the highest offices of our federal Executive Branch.
Well said, Jane.
P.S. A retraction concerning my comment yesterday that Leslie Southwick’s Circuit Court nomination apparently would be on the floor today, per Harry Reid (if no Senator placed a hold on the nomination). I misheard Reid, it turns out. The Congressional Record of Senator Reid’s comments late on Wednesday actually reads:
eCAHNomics @ 73
Especially those US citizens who are voters in the United States House of Representatives and the Senate of the United States. They are the ones with the most direct ability to stop this criminal behavior, and to date their use of that ability has been . . . how to put this delicately? . . . FUBAR.
RonD @ 56
I think you need to delete the computer jazz and add assassination.
What do the dems actually say about their subpoena non enforcement? Have they said WHY they are not doing anything?
SufiLizard @ 82
AMEN!!
Sufi@82: Nicely said.
I still say drop Bush, Cheney, Libby, Ledeen, Rove, Feith, Bolton, Woolsey, Wolfowitz, etc etc. down in the middle of Baghdad butt ass naked and let them run for it.
Let the Iraqi people deal with the people who destroyed their country and are responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths, injuries and millions of Iraqi refugees.
And another OT item:
When I was bloviating non stop earlier this year about Gore vs. Thompson being the eventual race, I had no idea Thompson would be revealed as such a lousy public speaker. I mean all he has to do is act like he really wants the nomination and it’s his- and he can’t even do that!
Astounding!
I mean, he’s an actor!
mc @ 53
IIRC “The Tyranny” was actually the Parliament’s enactments as opposed to King George III who was “discomforted” throughout much of this part of his reign. Another example of the shoddy use of fact that passes as national history and obscures from whence, without which, wither to becomes impossible. Just another example of the tissue of lies that is the country’s state.
Kathleen @ 78
If I understand correctly, the technical term for this is fragging. Haven’t seen any stats about how often it happens. I wonder why!
raven @ 86
Yeah, I was leaving that to be discovered by those who clicked on the link.
STTP in Ohio @ 91
Playing the role of a pathetic old man with a trinket wife
STTP in Ohio @ 91
He’s an actor and must have his lines written for him. His handlers are a spectacular failure so far.
cleter @ 33
You’re both wrong. From DCCC’s website:
What part of ‘Torture Doesn’t Work,’ do they not comprehend??? Aloha, Ya’ll!!!
mc @ 53
but the Declaration of the message boards at fdl says somewhere that one must never question the Axiom of reflexive support for the Least Worst, because it is written somewhere that salvation must ride to the rescue on the back of a Blue Donkey.
I think Leahy’s got something on the torture stuff and is focusing his sights on it, using that as the ransom for Mukasey’s confirmation; and he needs documents fast. Maybe the cabal won’t rapture, instead they’ll rupture. In order to stop war with Iran, Cheney must go. I think the NYT’s article sounds like leaks to implicate him as the “torture” policy source, from the State Department. I hope he feels forced to resign. Ooops, I was dreaming. I never thought Rumsfeld or Rove would go though, and I never thought Gonzo would go either. So, I’m just going to dream on.
eCAHNomics @ 93
Fragging is throwing a “fragmentation grenade” so it kills another soldier, usually an officer, who is a threat because he is incompetent. You are talking about offing someone for political reasons.
CTuttle @ 98
It’s only intended to make the scared-of-horses Preznit feel like a tough guy.
This is OT, but I can’t resist.
From msnbc:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21135286/
Isn’t Baby Einstein (TM) the company that clusterfuck (thanks, rwcole) heralded in his SOTU address? LOL!!
Also, you can’t tell me that these companies crying foul on China manufacturing didn’t know about this and were complicit in the crime for years. It’s just convenient right now to call China on it.
The view here is George W. Bush will never face any accountability for his lies or the torture and genocide this man set in motion with his invasion and occupation of Iraq. Who’s going to hold the Bush feet to the fire? The Democrats?
SufiLizard @ 82
No courage is needed in the face of terrorism. IIRC, the stats show that less than 20,000 have been killed globally since 1968 by (non-war) terrorism. I live with shooting range of several terrorist targets-nearest is U.N., 5 blocks (1/4 mile) away. I don’t spend any emotional energy worrying about it, nor do I need courage.
Of all the scares the gov has ever dredged up to keep up peons in line, terrorism is the silliest & the weakest. Not worth a single bad thing the gov has done.
I’ve been thinking for years that it would make sense for Cheney to resign to be replaced with a person who would run as a gooper incumbent- but guess it isn’t gonna happen.
Badwater @ 102
The Sadistic Bast*rds probably watch the videos nightly…!!!
rwcole @ 106
Don’t be so sure: Jeb ‘08!
rwcole @ 106
all the gooper candidates would throw a hissy fit if that happened:
“that’s not faaaaaiiiirrrr!”
Sort of OT, but I randomly stumbled on this: I love how our sociopathic elite just start nonchalantly revealing the real reasons for invading Iraq to the public as if they had been openly stated and unanimously consented to from the beginning:
“If we can divorce the emotion over the war from the argument, Iraq is an ideal location to project U.S. power throughout the region. It is centrally located and home to excellent facilities such as the sprawling air base at Balad. If we assume that the two primary threats to security in the region are Iran and Syria, an American military presence in Iraq places our forces in a central position to counter those threats with military force if necessary. Combined with effective diplomatic initiatives that have virtually surrounded Syria and almost surrounded Iran, the United States can leverage military presence to bring pressure on these two rogue states.”
I feel much calmer now, less emotional, when I think of it as “projecting U.S. power.”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134021/
Badwater
It would be a VERY tough year for a Bush to run- but who knows- Clusterfuck isn’t sane.
Badwater @ 108
Yep. Is he still on unemployment?
SufiLizard @ 82
Well put. I couldn’t agree more. The irony of the greatest cowards in the country wrapping themselves in the flag braying endlessly about how brave and resolute they are is truly astonishing.
rwcole @ 106
Yep. I had Jeb pegged also. But the family name is trashed now.
Punaise
Yeah- they’d scream like stuck pigs–of course.
I am still hoping for Gore.
Diane @ 71
I haven’t had time to read this and absorb this, but Mukasey seems to know something or is hiding something that if it got out would be very inconvenient for someone or someones
http://rawstory.com//news/2007….._0925.html
http://rawstory.com//news/2007….._0925.html
newtonusr @ 114
I don’t think it would be legal…oh…what am I saying…it is post 9/11…I forgot.
rwcole @ 111
All the Bush family has to do is get the polls close and then let their pals at Diebold take it the rest of the way.
phred @ 113
It has nothing to do with courage or cowardice. They’re not doing any of this out of fear; it’s hate.
sporkovat @ 99
Are you suggesting it is now the Declaration of Independents? (snark;)
Middle east
Peace How?
http://www.forward.com/articles/11737/
Israel lobby goes International
http://www.forward.com/articles/11754/
Talk of change persists,
but so does Mideast violence
http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iow…..abbas.html
One Million Voices: Celebrating peace or camouflaging apartheid?
Press Release, PACBI, Oct 4, 2007
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article9027.shtml
http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iow…..abbas.html
Badwater @ 108
Actually, it’ll be Pappy Bush-Mr.Clinton-JR.Bush-Mrs Clinton-Jeb Bush…!!!
A wooden one…
This is going to help the Republics:
Craig now says he will not resign from the Senate until his term ends in January 2009.
rwcole @ 60
I agree…and I’m not alone, From General Tommy Franks:
Brought to you by the former Commander of Central command.
brendan @ 110
Of course if we assume that our purpose in the world is to spread Democracy, we wouldn’t be threatening one of only two democracies (as flawed as it is) in the region.
I’m sorry, I just don’t see either of those countries as a threat to the U.S.
A threat to the profits of some big oil companies maybe, but not a threat to the United States of America.
Saudi Arabia on the other hand presents a much more serious threat as the home of Wahabism and most of the 9/11 hijackers.
punaise @ 109
Fair? I’m not sure they are familiar with that word.
AHA moment!!!
Remember the other day during Goldsmith’s testimony, when he said the Administration is “really” fearful of being culpable for war crime stuff?
Remember the other day during Goldsmith’s testimony, he almost begged them to go “behind closed doors” so he could fill them in on the details of the program(s).
Leahy has the dirt…and now he’s changing tactics.
SanderO @ 87
They assume it’s self-explanatory. What’s one more cave after years of so many? As Glenn Greenwald pointed out today the idea that the media was initially overwhelmed by the scope of the Bush Administration’s lawlessness hasn’t been operative for years now. They know. And what can be said of the media is even more true of the Democrats. They know exactly how rotten this Administration is. They too have known for years. And they too have done nothing.
The simple truth is there is only one remedy for Bush and Cheney’s crimminality and that is impeachment. But because the Democrats are afraid to face the impeachment process, they act as if it is all business as usual, that everything is normal. That way they don’t have to act or stand on principle or fulfill their Constitutional duties.
(A blog by, b/c my omniscience, even expressed as art, at times cannot be contained – feel free to use it if you wish)*
http://farm2.static.flickr.com…..304a_o.jpg
_____________________________________
*Don’t say I never got you anything.
CTuttle @ 123
Let’s be bi-partisan: George Clinton ‘08
Gotta hope Craig runs again for his seat- bout the only way a dem will win in Idyho.
By the way- Cook has updated his list of senate races…Dems have two seats in trouble- goopers have 11 including Domenici’s seat in New Mexico…
The senate’s lookin good. Don’t know about the house.
I wanted to know if SCHIP covered illegal immigrants. I can’t find the information anywhere?
In FY 2006?
In FY 2007? (as vetoed by Shrub)
STTP in Ohio @ 91
He’s acting like someone who doesn’t want the job.
brendan @ 120
One could argue the root of hate is fear.
EPU! Good to see you!
Maybe Leahy has figured out a way to use the hearings to score- or maybe not. Would be nice to see him do something clever.
Evil Parallel Universe @ 131
EPU!! Good to see you again. And what a gift! I’m sure it will keep on giving.
Badwater @ 125
Good.
I have a dear friend (we both own historic homes 8 miles apart) who’s a wingnut, and a lawyer. He kept arguing that Craig did not get due process in the Senate. I finally told him that if he were interested in the rule of law, he had better ought to vote D, as the Rs show no nodding acquaintance with it.
Ish @ 132
P-Funk playing at the inaugural. That’s gotta be good.
Since I haven’t perused comments on any of today’s threads, I don’t know the extent to which this ThinkProgress story has already been mentioned: Did Secretary Rice Know About Gonzales’ Secret ‘05 Legal Opinion On Torture?
Evil Parallel Universe @ 131
EPU, It’s been a long time since I’ve seen ya comment…!!! 8-)
EPU – been a while!
STTP in Ohio @ 91
He’s an actor who’s main scenes are sitting in a chair, looking greying-at-the-temples. “Well then, you’d better go git him.” “I can’t charge on that.”
CUT!
The campaign trail actually requires work. Can’t snooze in your trailer until time to shoot your scene, Fred.
Sandman @ 134
No. That was why Kucinich voted against it. I have read that he will switch his vote to override the veto though.
Cook’s House chart shows 20 goopers in trouble vs 14 dems- dems might pick up a few more seats in the house.
brendan @ 110
The 3 pillars of neocon Middle East policy have always been oil, Israel, and basing rights.
rwcole @ 133
Check this out on the house. Landslide is used in the headline. http://www.boomantribune.com/s…..12331/2500
brendan @ 110
I only have the 4 years military experience from years ago, and a lot of reading, but the “ideal location” described seems reminiscent of the Little Big Horn, the Alamo, Dienbienphu, etc. Is this guy a West Point product?
Diane @ 71
I think Leahy thinks he’s conceding to Schumer this time, because everybody says Schumer submitted Mukasey’s name. But it’s a Bush win, all the same, if they are no longer going to press for the information they subpoenaed for, or are no longer pursuing Miers, Rove, et al, for Contempt of Congress for ignoring their subpoenas. They either need to take back their rights under checks and balances, or they are weakening their own branch of government and setting a bad precedent, I fear. Whatever happened to Inherent Contempt, anyway?
Badwater @ 141
If George Clinton had been running the country for the last 6 1/2 years, we’d be in MUCH better shape. There’s no argument.
We want the funk…
rwcole @ 147
It’s hard to see how that matters given the current house leadership.
Ann in AZ @ 151
I’m of the mind that they got something from Goldsmith on torture and the TSP program in private…they are going to go for the big fish, and Mukasey will cooperate.
Ann in AZ @ 151
Another rather nasty secret is that it is not just Bush and the Republicans who are trying to run out the clock but the Democrats as well.
ThinkProgress: Karl Rove’s Deputy J. Scott Jennings Resigns
SufiLizard @ 127
They’re a threat to us if you consider us synonymous with Israel. Syria is a threat for not relinquishing claim to the Golan heights, Iran threatens Israel’s nuclear monopoly. Iran is also a threat to the rapacious, imperial interests of the U.S., but by no means an immediate one.
I don’t buy this line about Saudi Arabia being a “threat”. Saudi Arabia IS the United States. Those sheiks, when you look past the sartorial details, are exactly the same as our political elites; I’m convinced the friendship between them and Baker or Bush I is genuine. AQ was very smart in “putting a Saudi face on 9-11″, as that former ambassador Jubeir used to so plaintively argue on the Sunday shows. A lot of the hostility to the Saudis comes from the Israelis (you saw it spike, for example, when the Saudis proposed a peace conference ont the Palestinians) because Saudi Arabia is the only rival to their influence in the U.S.
Hugh @ 155
Because many of the Dem Leaders are just as complicit…!!! 8-(
Hugh @ 155
Ain’t that the truth! Cowards!
Cahn
That looks a little optimistic- but inspirational.
pma:
Yeah, I love that “ideal location”.
eCAHNomics @ 93
Murder.
She worked a desk job in finance.
She found things that made enemies.
This happened outside church on a secure base.
Badwater
If there’s a dem in the White House- ya have a brand new ballgame.
With this narrowly divided govt. neither side is having any luck getting anything done in congress- will take different skills with a Dem prez. There WILL be an agenda and the chore will be to get it through.
brendan @ 110
Francona is a knucklehead. We aren’t wanted in Iraq. That is the difference. The UAE and Bahrain wanted us there. Have you ever noticed where are bases in Saudi Arabia and the other ME countries are/were? Out in the middle of nowhere. That is where. What a blithering idiot Francona is. Sounds like another neo-con.
O/T — please forgive
Yessterday on a local radio show in Anchorage, the host announced that he had received from an annonymous source a tape that purports to be of Senator Ted Stevens (R-AK) the longest serving Republican senator in history talking to Bill Allen, minutes after the latter’s arrest. The radio host indicated that it was a smoking gun, and that they were having it authenticated with experts.
More than that, I cannot tell you, except to say that today’s show on KUDO starting at 4:00 local time should be a blockbuster.
For those who need refreshing, Bill Allen is the erstwhile president of VECO an oilfield service company that is involved in many of the local scandals in Alaska. He has plead guilty and our republican legislators are awaiting trial. VECO was receiving the bills and otherwise supervising construction on the extensive remodel of Ted Steven’s home in Girdwood AK, which home was the subject of a search warrant recently.
OT – just saw a story that a hopeless rethug woman named Wilson has jumped into the race for the Senate in New Mexico. Would not the honorable Joe Wilson make a dazzling opponent and leave her in the dust? What are the chances dear Jane that Ambassador Wilson would deign to jump in the NM senate race?
Sorry if this is old news…been swamped with work this week.
Does Wilson live in New Mexico?
newspaperbrat @ 166
Loverly. The good Wilson vs. the evil Wilson. But the good Wilsons have just moved to the state, and live in that funky artisitc Santa Fe, so wouldn’t hold up much hope of being elected. There’s a Udall in NM that I saw someone wants to run for the senate.
Here’s the NM Udall link:
http://www.mydd.com/story/2007/10/3/214358/542
As the Rude One said earlier today: The Rude Pundit has not been one of the loud drum beaters for impeachment out here in Left Blogsylvania because of the practicality of achieving it. But he has to say that the longer these depraved m*f*s get to go unpunished, the more obvious it is that the Congress and, indeed, the citizens of this fallen nation have decided what kind of people they are.
I’m just sayin….
The trouble with impeachement is that it’s a mathematical impossibility.
So how many the article’s authors – SCOTT SHANE, DAVID JOHNSTON and JAMES RISEN – would Fitzgerald want to send to jail?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..02000.html
Apparently a shield law that would protect the Dana Priest’s – the leaks on the TSP and blacksites etc., will also protect Iraqi spies and child pornographers and we need to be very afraid.
Plus, since
he’s sure that Congress won’t want to endorse it.
Domestic terrorists, gangs and pedophiles – um, isn’t that pretty much a definition of the Republicans in Congress and the Bush Administration?
“Trust us” isn’t really a great sales pitch for a Dept of Justice that embraces, solicits, refuses to prosecute, and invokes State Secrets to cover up torture. Maybe he’ll want to go with: “Hey, don’t vote for that shield law or we’ll help render you off to Syria for torture.”
?
Not that DOJ does that kind of thing. After all, they find torture abhorrent, right? Wouldn’t want to leak out classified info that maybe they don’t, actually.
Kinda makes you wonder if someone at DOJ though Abhorrent was a collaborative effort of “Body by Jake” and the CIA – kind of a torture guy’s response to the Pilates Punisher with a little better research behind the punishment part?
rwcole @ 167
Yup.
I called the offices of Boxer, Feinstein and my Representative. Boxer’s office said that they’d received “a few calls” about the NYTimes article.
Just a few? More people should call.
Titanyum @ 26
“Truth crushed to earth will rise again…” MLK
Jane– the best part of your piece is the admission that Leahy and the other Demo. phony opposition
enablerscollaborators now bear direct responsibility for these war crimes, torture, theft, destruction of the rule of law in the US, etc.So when do the netroots stop supporting the phony Demo “opposition” & start to support a 3rd party that might actually do something to stop this fascist juggernaut?
RonD @ 126
Jeez, that guy can’t speak at all. Look at that glop of a paragraph!
What he means to say is: the possibility of a weapon of mass destruction killing hundreds of thousands of Americans and the fear that our current government won’t be able to prevent that destruction might cause Americans to begin to doubt our government.
Fear —> Doubt —> Gov. Crumbles
So, all we need to do is stop being afraid and Fight Fight Fight! We always have and we’ve always succeeded. The only difference now is that our biggest threat is from the president and the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy.
Ish @ 152
If Edwards is elected then maybe he’ll get Delbert McClinton to perform. Not funk, but not quite Clinton either, so it’s all good.
rwcole @ 171
Times change.
Right now the Repubs see their boat sinking and each one is trying to save his/her own neck. In time it will become unbearable and they’ll start looking for life preservers (like SCHIP reauthorization) and the Dems might offer a hand with a bill of impeachment…
LS @ 173
I love that not only do we get rid of Domenici, but if we win we also get rid of Heather Wilson.
It’s WIN-WIN baby!
None, I’m sure, Mary. Good faith reports of illegal government activity, even if from classified sources (what isn’t classified these days, anyway?), ought to be beyond the defined limits of any sort of prosecution risk for misuse of classified information. Shielding corporations (most reporters are not independent operators), who happen to employ reporters (even corporations like FOX that employ partisan activists to advance the agendas of their friends in the Executive Branch in the name of “reporting”), simply misses the point, and avoids addressing the nub of the problem: the need to safeguard the leakers of secret government malfeasance themselves, rather than the media they use to reach the public, from both burdensome legal fees for fear of legal jeopardy and from legal jeopardy itself. Creating and enacting effective, well-defined and ironclad whistleblower protection and rewards, in other words, is where Congress ought to be focusing its energies.
We need to stop focusing on and catering to the well-funded middlemen making the most noise, and start respecting and protecting the unfunded citizens who are doing these good deeds on our behalf, at their own risk and usually for no personal profit whatsoever.