zed???

Jane!

Turd Blossom! Yeah, Jane!!!

The impression here is Rove is busying himself with dirty business. That’s his field.

I want to make a wise-crack about KKKarl and being in prison but the ghost of my grandmother is preventing me.

Plus I kinda like hanging out at FDL and the wise-crack could get me in seriously deep trouble with the mods.

So I won’t say anything here. But boy I’ll think loud about it.

dakine01 @ 5

I want to make a wise-crack about KKKarl and being in prison but the ghost of my grandmother is preventing me.

Plus I kinda like hanging out at FDL and the wise-crack could get me in seriously deep trouble with the mods.

So I won’t say anything here. But boy I’ll think loud about it.

We can question his Humanity…!!! ;-)

Karl is probably planning next year’s campaign tricks.

I just hope no one is insane enough to hire him.

Turdblossom’s deputy is bailing out now too;

Karl Rove’s Deputy J. Scott Jennings Resigns
. Scott Jennings, White House Deputy Director of Political Affairs, has been Karl Rove’s right-hand man, assisting him in schemes ranging from the U.S. attorney scandal to political briefings at government agencies.

ThinkProgress spoke with a White House spokesperson today who confirmed that Jennings is resigning, less than two months after his boss stepped down. The official told ThinkProgress that Jennings would be leaving “sometime soon.” KYPolitics.org reports that Jennings is leaving to become a principal at Peritus Public Relations in Kentucky.
snip

Is there any way that we are ever going to gain access to any/all of these subpoenaed documents, people, etc? We have been stonewalled at every turn by these peoples contemptuous refusal to cooperate with any investigatory authority, while you just know the shredders are all operating on the “Emergency Overspeed” setting.

on second thought, I imagine they are not shredding Harriet Miers and the rest of the gang…

EPU’d from downstairs:
It’s only 3 o’clock and I just went to the freezer and pulled out See’s Molassas Chips and a Pacifco….the beer’s on the window sill, defrosting. Anyone wanna join me?

What will it take – even beyond the Dems in Congress finding some spine – to get this information that appears to be of further criminal acts – out of the WH?

P J Evans @ 7

Karl is probably planning next year’s campaign tricks.

I just hope no one is insane enough to hire him.

…probably???

Rove? For the Democrats, in terms of prosecution; out of sight, out of mind.

P J Evans @ 7

Karl is probably planning next year’s campaign tricks.

I just hope no one is insane enough to hire him.

His children are at play in AR. The Family Council

Attorney General Dustin McDaniel has certified the Family Council’s revised initiated act to ban gay foster parenting and adoption for the ballot. This clears the way for their effort to gather signatures to qualify it for the 2008 ballot.

Ed*ard Teller @ 11

What will it take – even beyond the Dems in Congress finding some spine – to get this information that appears to be of further criminal acts – out of the WH?

agree

Mr. Rove is in all liklihood making more money now than he did when he was in the WH.

Ed*ard Teller @ 11

What will it take – even beyond the Dems in Congress finding some spine – to get this information that appears to be of further criminal acts – out of the WH?

Impeachment proceedings, or, at least, Inherent Contempt charges…!!!

OT, but it seems important – Nobel Peace Prize Laureate Archbishop Desmond Tutu has been banned from giving a speech at the University of St. Thomas in Minneapolis. Has that been discussed here yet?

Torches, pitchforks, and chamberpots!

My party, like the Republican Party, is merely running out the clock.

Rove can still be a hot ticket with books and speeches- but it’s a tiny window- he needs ta start writing NOW.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 16

Mr. Rove is in all liklihood making more money now than he did when he was in the WH.

with any luck he will need it all to pay his lawyers.

This case reeks of Obstruction of Justice and I’m sure a lot of other stuff. Could catch some pretty big fish. Seems it wouldn’t be hard; all you need to do is have Lanny Young testify, and specifically ask about contributions to Sessions and Pryor. Might be difficult, though, ‘cuz isn’t prior on the judiciary? Could you use another committee to investigate? OTOH, Dems are awfully good at turning the other cheek, taking no for an answer, and just ignoring stuff, so I won’t hold my breath.

Bustednuckles @ 8

Turdblossom’s deputy is bailing out now too;

Karl Rove’s Deputy J. Scott Jennings Resigns
. Scott Jennings, White House Deputy Director of Political Affairs, has been Karl Rove’s right-hand man, assisting him in schemes ranging from the U.S. attorney scandal to political briefings at government agencies.

ThinkProgress spoke with a White House spokesperson today who confirmed that Jennings is resigning, less than two months after his boss stepped down. The official told ThinkProgress that Jennings would be leaving “sometime soon.” KYPolitics.org reports that Jennings is leaving to become a principal at Peritus Public Relations in Kentucky.
snip

Oh boy! Another target for KY Dems. But he has to get in line behind the demonstrably corrupt Gover-not Ernie Fletcher and Miss McConnell and the senile Jim Bunning and Hal Rogers and all the rest of the KY Goopers

rwcole @ 21

Rove can still be a hot ticket with books and speeches- but it’s a tiny window- he needs ta start writing NOW.

Rove is dogshit without power.

He’s gonna end up like Walter Winchell.

-GSD

Eureka Springs @ 19

Torches, pitchforks, and chamberpots!

Hmmm… I forgot about the chamberpots…!!! ;-)

demi @ 10

EPU’d from downstairs:
It’s only 3 o’clock and I just went to the freezer and pulled out See’s Molassas Chips and a Pacifco….the beer’s on the window sill, defrosting. Anyone wanna join me?

I’m with you. Bass Ale, with Santita chips and Newman’s Own Mango dip.

Bustednuckles @ 8

Turdblossom’s deputy is bailing out now too;

Karl Rove’s Deputy J. Scott Jennings Resigns
. Scott Jennings, White House Deputy Director of Political Affairs, has been Karl Rove’s right-hand man, assisting him in schemes ranging from the U.S. attorney scandal to political briefings at government agencies.

ThinkProgress spoke with a White House spokesperson today who confirmed that Jennings is resigning, less than two months after his boss stepped down. The official told ThinkProgress that Jennings would be leaving “sometime soon.” KYPolitics.org reports that Jennings is leaving to become a principal at Peritus Public Relations in Kentucky.
snip

Someone else drawing the cloak of 5th Amendment rights to cover themselves as private citizens from exposure to the law for their violations of the law as public officials. Rats indeed.

rwcole @ 21

Rove can still be a hot ticket with books and speeches- but it’s a tiny window- he needs ta start writing NOW.

Henry Kissinger and others from Nixon, Ford, and Bush I days are doing pretty well. Say Oliver North, Poindexter, Rumsfeld, etc.

rwcole @ 21

Rove can still be a hot ticket with books and speeches- but it’s a tiny window- he needs ta start writing NOW.

I’d be surprised if he didn’t have a running draft going in real time & has the finished product soon in hand.

Senator Bunny(R)-Funny Farm, they are coming to take him away.

-GSD

Ed*ard Teller @ 18

OT, but it seems important – Nobel Peace Prize Laureate Archbishop Desmond Tutu has been banned from giving a speech at the University of St. Thomas in Minneapolis. Has that been discussed here yet?

I read the article. This is unbelievable.

dakine01 @ 5

I want to make a wise-crack about KKKarl and being in prison but the ghost of my grandmother is preventing me.

Plus I kinda like hanging out at FDL and the wise-crack could get me in seriously deep trouble with the mods.

So I won’t say anything here. But boy I’ll think loud about it.

d- yes, I understand. I was thinking about this not so long ago, when I had occasion to talk to the office of my House rep, and the person on the phone wanted the email addy of the FDL thread. I was thinking, whew, it’s great to be able to forward something that doesn’t contain explicit avocations of violence, etc.

And, the mods here really do do a great job, don’t they?

And lets no forget good ol’ boy James Baker, and George Shultz and Meese, etc. from the glorious Reagan years.

RonD @ 27

demi @ 10

EPU’d from downstairs:
It’s only 3 o’clock and I just went to the freezer and pulled out See’s Molassas Chips and a Pacifco….the beer’s on the window sill, defrosting. Anyone wanna join me?

I’m with you. Bass Ale, with Santita chips and Newman’s Own Mango dip.

On the corner, in five minutes, and bring the bass.

Fern @ 32

Ed*ard Teller @ 18

OT, but it seems important – Nobel Peace Prize Laureate Archbishop Desmond Tutu has been banned from giving a speech at the University of St. Thomas in Minneapolis. Has that been discussed here yet?

I read the article. This is unbelievable.

This is pure BS…
“We had heard some things he said that some people judged to be anti-Semitic and against Israeli policy,” says Doug Hennes, St. Thomas’s vice president for university and government relations. “We’re not saying he’s anti-Semitic. But he’s compared the state of Israel to Hitler and our feeling was that making moral equivalencies like that are hurtful to some members of the Jewish community.”

St. Thomas officials made this inference after Hennes talked to Julie Swiler, a spokeswoman for the Jewish Community Relations Council of Minnesota and the Dakotas.”

Ed*ard Teller @ 18

OT, but it seems important – Nobel Peace Prize Laureate Archbishop Desmond Tutu has been banned from giving a speech at the University of St. Thomas in Minneapolis. Has that been discussed here yet?

What possible reason did they give?

Fern @ 32

Ed*ard Teller @ 18

OT, but it seems important – Nobel Peace Prize Laureate Archbishop Desmond Tutu has been banned from giving a speech at the University of St. Thomas in Minneapolis. Has that been discussed here yet?

I read the article. This is unbelievable.

Apparently, the decision canceling the 2008 lecture was made back in May, and kept very, very quiet. But it will become public now, because the only professor to publicly protest the decision lost his position at the end of August!

Valley Girl @ 33

dakine01 @ 5

I want to make a wise-crack about KKKarl and being in prison but the ghost of my grandmother is preventing me.

Plus I kinda like hanging out at FDL and the wise-crack could get me in seriously deep trouble with the mods.

So I won’t say anything here. But boy I’ll think loud about it.

d- yes, I understand. I was thinking about this not so long ago, when I had occasion to talk to the office of my House rep, and the person on the phone wanted the email addy of the FDL thread. I was thinking, whew, it’s great to be able to forward something that doesn’t contain explicit avocations of violence, etc.

And, the mods here really do do a great job, don’t they?

The FDL Mods are “finest kind” as Hawkeye says.

GSD @ 31

Senator Bunny(R)-Funny Farm, they are coming to take him away.

-GSD

I don’t know where you found that but is a good one.
” I had little green doctors pounding on my back!’.

OHHHHH Kayyy.

Rice and Rove will perhaps make bundles.

Bustednuckles @ 40

GSD @ 31

Senator Bunny(R)-Funny Farm, they are coming to take him away.

-GSD

I don’t know where you found that but is a good one.
” I had little green doctors pounding on my back!’.

OHHHHH Kayyy.

As I said, the senile Jim Bunning.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 41

Rice and Rove will perhaps make bundles.

Shrub might experience a rude awakening…!!! *g*

Oklahoma kiddo @ 34

And lets no forget good ol’ boy James Baker, and George Shultz and Meese, etc. from the glorious Reagan years.

Yeah, but that is the old guard, do you really see Ann Coulter becoming a Phyllis Schlafley? Ah, ah. The shelf life of the modern Neo-GOP-ers is fast reaching maturation.

-GSD

Ron Dean
I mean both basses. The one with the short A and the one with the long A.

Ed*ard Teller @ 38

Fern @ 32

I read the article. This is unbelievable.

Apparently, the decision canceling the 2008 lecture was made back in May, and kept very, very quiet. But it will become public now, because the only professor to publicly protest the decision lost his position at the end of August!

Can you say Norman Finkelstein and DePaul?

I knew you could.

dakine01 @ 39

Valley Girl @ 33

d- yes, I understand. I was thinking about this not so long ago, when I had occasion to talk to the office of my House rep, and the person on the phone wanted the email addy of the FDL thread. I was thinking, whew, it’s great to be able to forward something that doesn’t contain explicit avocations of violence, etc.

And, the mods here really do do a great job, don’t they?

The FDL Mods are “finest kind” as Hawkeye says.

Da Bestest in Da Westest…!!! *g*

There’s always going to be a market for neocon fascists and their toadies. And don’t forget conservative ‘think’ tanks.

Anchor Steam, with … I dunno. It really calls for a burger. Or a steak. Usually it ends up close to room temp before I finish it (still bubbly, though).

GSD @ 44

Oklahoma kiddo @ 34

And lets no forget good ol’ boy James Baker, and George Shultz and Meese, etc. from the glorious Reagan years.

Yeah, but that is the old guard, do you really see Ann Coulter becoming a Phyllis Schlafley? Ah, ah. The shelf life of the modern Neo-GOP-ers is fast reaching maturation.

-GSD

Coulter is what she is. But Rove, he’s an altogether different life form.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 48

There’s always going to be a market for neocon fascists and their toadies. And don’t forget conservative ‘think’ tanks.

And isn’t it strange, they never seem yo get banned from colleges when they spout their hatred and lies.

No, sane, non-violent people critical of the fascists are banned with the help of the Catholic Church, like they stepped into the shadows for the creation of the Third Reich.

dak- ygm

P J Evans @ 49

Anchor Steam, with … I dunno. It really calls for a burger. Or a steak. Usually it ends up close to room temp before I finish it (still bubbly, though).

Waiting for the best greasy burger & fries, with vanilla milkshake, on the east side of Manhattan, to be delivered. Ooops. There’s the house phone now.

The nation is clearly mad……The poison has spread through the whole system.

-GSD

Chimpy is out of his mind. He doesn’t see how the world sees him.

WASHINGTON (Reuters) – President George W. Bush warned Syria on Thursday not to interfere in Lebanon’s presidential election.

Trying to bolster the Western-backed government of Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora against pro-Syrian opponents, Bush also said he was sending one of his top military commanders to Lebanon to assess the needs of its security forces.

-GSD

{{{JANE!!!}}}

So, how do we take all this dirty laundry to the cleaners? Isn’t it about time that Congress ask for a Special Prosecutor, since the DOJ cannot be trusted to do its job?

Bob in HI

james @ 46

Ed*ard Teller @ 38

Apparently, the decision canceling the 2008 lecture was made back in May, and kept very, very quiet. But it will become public now, because the only professor to publicly protest the decision lost his position at the end of August!

Can you say Norman Finkelstein and DePaul?

I knew you could.

Similar on the surface, but not in scale. Though Tutu was never a head-of-state, he’s a friggin’ Archbishop. He headed the only peace and reconciliation commission to come close to working. He’s one of the most highly respected clerics in the world, with humanitarian awards from just about every major tolerance-teaching religious sect on the planet.

james @ 51

Oklahoma kiddo @ 48

There’s always going to be a market for neocon fascists and their toadies. And don’t forget conservative ‘think’ tanks.

And isn’t it strange, they never seem yo get banned from colleges when they spout their hatred and lies.

No, sane, non-violent people critical of the fascists are banned with the help of the Catholic Church, like they stepped into the shadows for the creation of the Third Reich.

One poignant moment from “The War” was when a veteran was saying how they made the local townspeople bury the contents of one of the local Crematoria…!!!

One thing this whole Bush experience has done for this household; It’s made us appreciate real justice and to never again take it for granted.

CTuttle @ 43

Oklahoma kiddo @ 41

Rice and Rove will perhaps make bundles.

Shrub might experience a rude awakening…!!! *g*

I think any awakening would be rude for him.
He just pissed me off, Again, when speaking about the childrens’ health bill that 83 thousand dollars “doen’t sound like pore ta me!”
He just so cut off from the reality that everyone else out here lives with.
The man is in a constant state of non-awakedness.

Valley Girl @ 52

dak- ygm

back to you.

Sorry demi. I can carry a cooler full of ‘Ale, chips, and dip, or I can carry a 4003 Rickenbacker Bass that weighs about half as much as a Volkswagen, but both, no way. :(

The banning of Desmond Tutu from speaking at a UNIVERSITY is so telling about the diminution of free speach in this country.

I’m going to have to get a new apall-o-meter. The one I have is wearing out.

Since we are talking about laundry. I’d like to take the starch out of Karl. Can I get into trouble for saying that?

Oklahoma kiddo @ 64

Since we are talking about laundry. I’d like to take the starch out of Karl. Can I get into trouble for saying that?

It’s a little corny but keep the iron hot..)

oops – lawyer thread – over my head so i’ll just lurk awhile….yeah i am that dense when its legal talk :(

OT-Charlie Gibson on ABC just said the military prosecutors were going to drop all murder charges against the soldiers (Marines?) who killed 24 civilians in Haditha.

demi @ 60

CTuttle @ 43

Shrub might experience a rude awakening…!!! *g*

I think any awakening would be rude for him.
He just pissed me off, Again, when speaking about the childrens’ health bill that 83 thousand dollars “doen’t sound like pore ta me!”
He just so cut off from the reality that everyone else out here lives with.
The man is in a constant state of non-awakedness.

A Bubble, a hermetically sealed, bullet-proof bubble…!!! ;-)

Oklahoma kiddo @ 64

Since we are talking about laundry. I’d like to take the starch out of Karl. Can I get into trouble for saying that?

I’ll let it rub out if you’ll help me take Karl to the cleaners. Reading that over, it sounds a bit sinister, but he at least needs to be hung out to dry.

RonD @ 67

OT-Charlie Gibson on ABC just said the military prosecutors were going to drop all murder charges against the soldiers (Marines?) who killed 24 civilians in Haditha.

Didn’t Rush say the 24 were “phony” civilians?

The following video of W 10 years ago and now…Holy wee, wee…WTF?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…..mp;search=

RonD @ 67

This is a surprise because – ?
You knew they would, ’cause otherwise they’d have to admit that the military’s broken and we have to get out of there.

Well friends,

There’s evidence that I fell for a big hoax. As I read ET’s comments on the last thread, the “tape” that I referred to was a comedy paste-up. I won’t know for sure because the show which talked about it has been pre-empted for a sports event.

There seems to be an inverse statistical relationship between the number of Clusterfuck speeches and his Approval ratings..He’s been talkin his ass off- and he’s back down to career lows…Can’t tell though if it’s a causal relationship- or if so- what’s causin what. Does he give more speeches when he’s hated- or is he most hated when he gives the most dumb speeches- I’d support the latter.

RonD,
Is that heavier than a Les Paul?
‘Course the Mr’s Hammond is pretty heavy too.
Why I play da flute. (ha ha ha).

Ed*ard Teller @ 38

Fern @ 32

I read the article. This is unbelievable.

Apparently, the decision canceling the 2008 lecture was made back in May, and kept very, very quiet. But it will become public now, because the only professor to publicly protest the decision lost his position at the end of August!

It seems to me that if one objects to being compared to Hitler, it would be wise NOT to follow in his type of policies – banning free speech. Those who feel Tutu is antisemitic need to stand and be counted publicly. Because Tutu criticizes Israel’s policies doesn’t make him antisemitic. Israel doesn’t speak for all Jews. If they want to be a real country, they need to stand up and take criticism. These are a few being bullies because they don’t want to discourse with all those Jews who are critical of Israel’s policies.

Looks like it’s time for another MoveOn ad.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 48

There’s always going to be a market for neocon fascists and their toadies. And don’t forget conservative ‘think’ tanks.

Who was it? Naomi Klein? who said think tanks are places where people are paid to think by the people who make the tanks.

Bob in HI

Linky to Haditha story.

Damn. Toobz all locked up. See everyone later.

GSD @ 31

Senator Bunny(R)-Funny Farm, they are coming to take him away.

-GSD

WTF? Little green doctors pounding on his back? Who is this guy?

rwcole @ 74

There seems to be an inverse statistical relationship between the number of Clusterfuck speeches and his Approval ratings..He’s been talkin his ass off- and he’s back down to career lows…Can’t tell though if it’s a causal relationship- or if so- what’s causin what. Does he give more speeches when he’s hated- or is he most hated when he gives the most dumb speeches- I’d support the latter.

Dumb speeces are his specialty. Seems like he’s now on his farewell tour. After December, the Republics are going to want him to be not seen and not heard. They may even try to get him to change parties. That would be a masterful campaign strategy: Republics running against Bush the Democratic incumbant.

unconventional conventionist @ 63

The banning of Desmond Tutu from speaking at a UNIVERSITY is so telling about the diminution of free speach in this country.

I’m going to have to get a new apall-o-meter. The one I have is wearing out.

The banning of Tutu obviously had to have been done by a troglodyte who has absolutely no idea about where the moral high ground is, or who’s standing on it. Tutu has few peers in the world today– he’s not the only one, but he most assuredly is one of those who deserve to be heard anywhere and everywhere.

Bob in HI

Loo Hoo. @ 80

GSD @ 31

Senator Bunny(R)-Funny Farm, they are coming to take him away.

-GSD

WTF? Little green doctors pounding on his back? Who is this guy?

Senator (yes, that’s correct, he’s one of the 100) Jim Bunning, R-Kentucky. Former major league pitcher, baseball hall of fame and with any luck will be the former senator in ‘10.

Comparing Israel to Hitler is pretty damned offensive. And unjustified.

Tutu is not being denied a forum because he is anti-Semitic, nor even because he is critical of Israel. Rather he chose to engage in inflamatory speech, which some would call “hate-speech.”

By presenting the other side of this argument, I am not saying that I agree with the conclusion that he should not be invited to speak. But I do believe we should be clear-minded and even handed.

Is there any level of discourse which is below the standards of acceptability for a public institution?

MoveOn.com has a pretty full plate these days.

Badwater @ 81

rwcole @ 74

There seems to be an inverse statistical relationship between the number of Clusterfuck speeches and his Approval ratings..He’s been talkin his ass off- and he’s back down to career lows…Can’t tell though if it’s a causal relationship- or if so- what’s causin what. Does he give more speeches when he’s hated- or is he most hated when he gives the most dumb speeches- I’d support the latter.

Dumb speeces are his specialty. Seems like he’s now on his farewell tour. After December, the Republics are going to want him to be not seen and not heard. They may even try to get him to change parties. That would be a masterful campaign strategy: Republics running against Bush the Democratic incumbant.

that would be hilarious. I suppose Bush could just register as a dem!

RonD @ 67

OT-Charlie Gibson on ABC just said the military prosecutors were going to drop all murder charges against the soldiers (Marines?) who killed 24 civilians in Haditha.

Loo Hoo. @ 80

GSD @ 31

Senator Bunny(R)-Funny Farm, they are coming to take him away.

-GSD

WTF? Little green doctors pounding on his back? Who is this guy?

It turns out his opponent was a Dr., Mongiardo, I think…and there must have bee supporters at a rally dressed in doctor scrubs…….I can’t fer sher say if they were ‘pounding on his back’…but Mr. Bunny seems as kookie as they come.

Imagine a pudslap like John Rocker becoming a Senator and you’ll get the feel for Sen. Bunny(Jim Bunning)…

-GSD

Pudslap.
Lol.

RonD @ 62

Sorry demi. I can carry a cooler full of ‘Ale, chips, and dip, or I can carry a 4003 Rickenbacker Bass that weighs about half as much as a Volkswagen, but both, no way. :(

Why should an electric bass be that heavy? Do they make it out of solid depleted Uranium?

I just got in shipment today from the mainland a 3/4- size upright bass with total weight (bass, bag, and crate) of 130 pounds. Not as maneouverable as your electric, but apparently not so heavy!

Bob in HI

As I recall Jim Bunning revealed serious craziness in his last campaign. Refusing to debate from the studio, insisting on closed circuit from his office. Weird stuff, but he’s an ex-major leaguer, so I cut him slack. OTH, he a Republican, so fuck him.

LS @ 71

The following video of W 10 years ago and now…Holy wee, wee…WTF?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pw4Bhmm22xo&mo
de=related&search=

Can’t watch. I tried. He did sound more coherent, though. Maybe does have a conscience, and it’s in the form of a worm slowly eating his brain.

6 years after 9/11 and the GOP is finally uniting to fight back as hard as possible against a perceived enemy…Hillary Rodham Clinton.

Can they get any more pathetic?

-GSD

BigMitch @ 84

Comparing Israel to Hitler is pretty damned offensive. And unjustified.

Tutu is not being denied a forum because he is anti-Semitic, nor even because he is critical of Israel. Rather he chose to engage in inflamatory speech, which some would call “hate-speech.”

By presenting the other side of this argument, I am not saying that I agree with the conclusion that he should not be invited to speak. But I do believe we should be clear-minded and even handed.

Is there any level of discourse which is below the standards of acceptability for a public institution?

MoveOn.com has a pretty full plate these days.

How do you feel about the decision of the Dean of Academic Affairs to demote Professor Cris Toffolo as chair of the Justice and Peace Studies program for protesting the cancelation? Should we similarly deny a lecturn to anybody who is randomly accused of “hate” speech?

Snip of the speech being cited as the reason that Tutu is banned:

Tutu said he wasn’t criticizing Jewish people, but the Israeli government.

“The apartheid government was very powerful, but we said to them, ‘Watch it,’” he said in the speech in Boston. “If you flout laws of this universe, you’re going to bite the dust. Hitler was powerful. (Josef) Stalin was powerful. Idi Amin was powerful.

“A lie, injustice, oppression, those will never prevail in this world of God,” he said.

http://minnesota.publicradio.o…..sssource=1

GSD @ 91

6 years after 9/11 and the GOP is finally uniting to fight back as hard as possible against a perceived enemy…Hillary Rodham Clinton.

Can they get any more pathetic?

-GSD

Mendacious douchebags.

( Another GSD original)
Lol

Bustednuckles @ 94

GSD @ 91

6 years after 9/11 and the GOP is finally uniting to fight back as hard as possible against a perceived enemy…Hillary Rodham Clinton.

Can they get any more pathetic?

-GSD

Mendacious douchebags.

( Another GSD original)
Lol

I forgot about that gem.

-GSD

Ed*ard Teller @ 92

BigMitch @ 84

Comparing Israel to Hitler is pretty damned offensive. And unjustified.

Tutu is not being denied a forum because he is anti-Semitic, nor even because he is critical of Israel. Rather he chose to engage in inflamatory speech, which some would call “hate-speech.”

By presenting the other side of this argument, I am not saying that I agree with the conclusion that he should not be invited to speak. But I do believe we should be clear-minded and even handed.

Is there any level of discourse which is below the standards of acceptability for a public institution?

MoveOn.com has a pretty full plate these days.

How do you feel about the decision of the Dean of Academic Affairs fto demote Professor Cris Toffolo as chair of the Justice and Peace Studies program for protesting the cancelation?

I have already acknowledged that there are two sides to this argument, so any punative action against someone who presented one side, is wrong. If that’s what happened. I trust you, but you are the only source of information I have for this.

On free speech in America, Condi Rice banned speakers that were approved to speak on Stanford University’s campus. A friend of mine who was a professor at Stanford during her tenure as Provost, invited a speaker, moderate, no radical, but Rice wanted the campus to focus on right wing speakers so she nixed having this person speak on campus.

My friend resigned because he refused to have her dictate how he taught his courses. He is now at UNR (University of Nevada Reno). She was referred to as little Hitler by both students and professors. I have a theory on why she behaved that way, she only considered one definition of provost – military police.

BigMitch @ 84

Comparing Israel to Hitler is pretty damned offensive. And unjustified.

Tutu is not being denied a forum because he is anti-Semitic, nor even because he is critical of Israel. Rather he chose to engage in inflammatory speech, which some would call “hate-speech.”

By presenting the other side of this argument, I am not saying that I agree with the conclusion that he should not be invited to speak. But I do believe we should be clear-minded and even handed.

Is there any level of discourse which is below the standards of acceptability for a public institution?

MoveOn.com has a pretty full plate these days.

An Arch Bishop and a Nobel Peace Laureate, I’m sure he has plenty of hate in him…!!!

Fern @ 32

Ed*ard Teller @ 18

OT, but it seems important – Nobel Peace Prize Laureate Archbishop Desmond Tutu has been banned from giving a speech at the University of St. Thomas in Minneapolis. Has that been discussed here yet?

I read the article. This is unbelievable.

What is ‘Israeli policy’, anyway? Voldemort? He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named?

We are apparently not going to let our delicate ears be offended by the opinions of a good fraction of Europe and the rest of the world on the Palestinian issues. We are going to be SOOO surprized when we finally face up to the way other people think. Not that Americans have been particularly interested in anyone else’s language, opinion, culture, you name it. We are the most parochial developed Western country, hands down.

Israel acts like a paranoid schizophrenic… I’m not pleased with how they treat the local Arabs… whatever they call themselves. I also don’t support with any enthusiasm any religiously driven state. That’s Israel… religious zealots with political power.

Why does Israel have to lobby the US government. Does Brazil? Does Thailand?

Bustednuckles @ 94

GSD @ 91

6 years after 9/11 and the GOP is finally uniting to fight back as hard as possible against a perceived enemy…Hillary Rodham Clinton.

Can they get any more pathetic?

-GSD

Mendacious douchebags.

( Another GSD original)
Lol

God, that reminds me of a comment a crazy writer I used to know referring to himself as having a Predigious Hangover.

Good evening all.

CC!!!!
Welcome to the party!

BigMitch @ 96

I trust you, but you are the only source of information I have for this.

Apparently, this just started filtering out. I’m a BIG Desmond Tutu fan, so I’m surprised that, given the cancelation occurred in late May and the demotion in late August, that this is just yesterday finally making the Minneapolis/St. Paul media. I doubt the MSM will even cover it, because it obviously isn’t newsworthy, eh?

This post. Wow. I mean we all heard of the Arkansas Mafia that targeted Clinton. Trust Rove to spread the disease into an epidemic.

May an Alabama lawyer and Republican activist named Dana Jill Simpson gave a notarized statement that she heard Canary say Rove “had spoken with the Department of Justice” about “pursuing” Siegelman, with help from two of Alabama’s U.S. Attorneys

.
Should we worry about this lady? Or has she had a change of heart that will prevent her from testifying before committee.

Mitch, let’s call a truce, a tie-game, if ya will…!!! ;-)

Thanks demi! Same old turd blossom stuff, huh. It never ends. It’s like a neverending buttstorm.

ccmask @ 102

Good evening all.

Evening, have a glass of chardonay and a tune..)

OT but today we hear that the Senate wants the secret torture memos. Don’t count on Leahy and the Senate doing anyting. It’s their mo. All bark and no bite. Today we have confirmed that the government practices torture on “suspects” and the administration says that this is necessary to protect the nation. Any nation that practices torture is not deserving of protection but is in need of liberation!

I guess we should all remember that KKKarl is always close at hand.

Gonzo keeps providing.
Abramoff keeps providing.
Rove keeps providing.

Just busy little bees.

Badwater

Bush changin parties- now THAT’S funny. They really hate his sorry ass now.

Hmm Press Release from Dana Jill Simpson, July07:
Initially, I was shocked to read the false and gross distortions issued in a press release by Middle District U.S. Attorneys Laura Canary and her assistant Louis Franklin regarding my role in the controversy surrounding the Don Siegelman/Richard Scrushy prosecution.

Still good there.

Bluetoe @ 109

OT but today we hear that the Senate wants the secret torture memos. Don’t count on Leahy and the Senate doing anyting. It’s their mo. All bark and no bite. Today we have confirmed that the government practices torture on “suspects” and the administration says that this is necessary to protect the nation. Any nation that practices torture is not deserving of protection but is in need of liberation!

We need someone who will just march into committee and light a fire under their asses.

CTuttle @ 106

Mitch, let’s call a truce, a tie-game, if ya will…!!! ;-)

Mods and pups – please note that although I brought this up, my initial comment didn’t use any of the minefield words and noted that this is OT, but important.

Eureka Springs @ 108

ccmask @ 102

Good evening all.

Evening, have a glass of chardonay and a tune..)

That raitts!

ccmask @ 107

Thanks demi! Same old turd blossom stuff, huh. It never ends. It’s like a neverending buttstorm.

It will only end when Turdblossom and his minions are stood against a wall, given blindfolds and a cigarette. Only then will the message be sent throughout the land that treason has consequences.

Ed*ard Teller @ 114

CTuttle @ 106

Mitch, let’s call a truce, a tie-game, if ya will…!!! ;-)

Mods and pups – please note that although I brought this up, my initial comment didn’t use any of the minefield words and noted that this is OT, but important.

Edward Teller. Never known you to use bad words ever.

I seriously want to fix the quote box@112

Any nation that practices torture is not deserving of protection but is in need of liberation!

I am going to use that often!

Kenny!!!

I wish everyone would lay off the Hitler/Nazi invective. I mean everyone, from Desmond Tutu down to every last bloviating right wing asshole. It’s offensive, and it’s really getting old.

Greenwald had a great piece about it the other day….I’m too tired to find it now but y’all know where he lives.

I did have a question about something he said though…..Why would the Wiesenthal Institute support Rupert Murdick? Mitch, can ya help me here?

ccmask @ 107

Thanks demi! Same old turd blossom stuff, huh. It never ends. It’s like a neverending buttstorm.

BUTTSTORM!
Too clever, by half.
You just got here and you’re cracking me up.

As you know, I am a staunch defender of Israel. It is a sad fact that isolation of Israel in the international community led it to an association with the evil regime in South Africa. I emphasize that this is something that Israel should be embarrassed by. But Israel was engaged in a fight for its existence.

No doubt, the Israel-Union of South Africa alliance influences Desmond Tutt’s opinions of Israel. Who can blame him?

As I have said, engaging in criticism of Israel is fair play. Comparing the Israeli regime to Hitler’s is unjustified, and wrong. I choose not to call it hate speech, but those who do, have a strong case to make. (It is hard for me to accept that the snippet in #93 is the extent of what he said.)

As to winning the Nobel Peace Prize: so did Yasser Arafat, an early adopter of the techniques of terrorism, the man who brought us airplane hi-jackings. And when has the anti-Israel left stopped calling Menachem Begin a terrorist?

Oh, he’s an Episcopal Arch Bishop, too. How are those guys on gay rights?

Bluetoe @ 116

ccmask @ 107

Thanks demi! Same old turd blossom stuff, huh. It never ends. It’s like a neverending buttstorm.

It will only end when Turdblossom and his minions are stood against a wall, given blindfolds and a cigarette. Only then will the message be sent throughout the land that treason has consequences.

Hmm Den Haag is better. They can knit.

It’s so hard to feel compassion towards Israel.

oddmommy @ 121

I wish everyone would lay off the Hitler/Nazi invective. I mean everyone, from Desmond Tutu down to every last bloviating right wing asshole. It’s offensive, and it’s really getting old.

Greenwald had a great piece about it the other day….I’m too tired to find it now but y’all know where he lives.

I did have a question about something he said though…..Why would the Wiesenthal Institute support Rupert Murdick? Mitch, can ya help me here?

I wish we could talk about this new Rove stuff. What if this Dana is a Comey? *clap hands*

CTuttle @ 106

Mitch, let’s call a truce, a tie-game, if ya will…!!! ;-)

Deal!

SanderO @ 100

Israel acts like a paranoid schizophrenic… I’m not pleased with how they treat the local Arabs… whatever they call themselves. I also don’t support with any enthusiasm any religiously driven state. That’s Israel… religious zealots with political power.

Why does Israel have to lobby the US government. Does Brazil? Does Thailand?

If you want a good history read Rashid Khalidi’s Iron Cage, which I just finished. The short version of the part that’s relevant to your Q is that ca. 1948, Israel realized that its former Great Power supporter, Great Britain, was soon to be toast and that Israel should therefore ingratiate itself with the U.S., which it cunningly & accurately identified as the next great world power. A very astute move and one that has paid off handsomely for the entirety of Israel’s existence.

Hi mui!
hey, are you on Facebook?

Buttstorm?
Pudslap?
We be on the cutting edge of communication here folks!
I still have to vote for mendacious douchebags as my all time favorite though, cracks me up every time.

Bluetoe @ 109

OT but today we hear that the Senate wants the secret torture memos. Don’t count on Leahy and the Senate doing anyting. It’s their mo. All bark and no bite. Today we have confirmed that the government practices torture on “suspects” and the administration says that this is necessary to protect the nation. Any nation that practices torture is not deserving of protection but is in need of liberation!

The only solice I can take to keep from going crazy is the thought that perhaps this is his way of laying out what he’s going to do when we have a democratic president and a larger majority in congress. There’s nothing to say that these things have to be settled now, is there? Course the whole cabal could be in Paraguay by then, but if they are found guilty in 2009, life will not be sweet for them.

oddmommy @ 121

I wish everyone would lay off the Hitler/Nazi invective. I mean everyone, from Desmond Tutu down to every last bloviating right wing asshole. It’s offensive, and it’s really getting old.

I second that emotion.

Greenwald had a great piece about it the other day….I’m too tired to find it now but y’all know where he lives.

I did have a question about something he said though…..Why would the Wiesenthal Institute support Rupert Murdick? Mitch, can ya help me here?

Sorry, no can do.

ccmask @ 125

It’s so hard to feel compassion towards Israel.

BigMitch @ 123

As you know, I am a staunch defender of Israel. It is a sad fact that isolation of Israel in the international community led it to an association with the evil regime in South Africa. I emphasize that this is something that Israel should be embarrassed by. But Israel was engaged in a fight for its existence.

No doubt, the Israel-Union of South Africa alliance influences Desmond Tutt’s opinions of Israel. Who can blame him?

As I have said, engaging in criticism of Israel is fair play. Comparing the Israeli regime to Hitler’s is unjustified, and wrong. I choose not to call it hate speech, but those who do, have a strong case to make. (It is hard for me to accept that the snippet in #93 is the extent of what he said.)

As to winning the Nobel Peace Prize: so did Yasser Arafat, an early adopter of the techniques of terrorism, the man who brought us airplane hi-jackings. And when has the anti-Israel left stopped calling Menachem Begin a terrorist?

Oh, he’s an Episcopal Arch Bishop, too. How are those guys on gay rights?

Staunch you are, Mitch, sometimes to a fault… Jimmy Carter who occupies the same rarefied air, has harshly condemned Israeli practices…!!! *peace* *g*

Bustednuckles @ 130

Buttstorm?
Pudslap?
We be on the cutting edge of communication here folks!
I still have to vote for mendacious douchebags as my all time favorite though, cracks me up every time.

I heard the term buttstorm last week and thought it was a great word. And who better to use it on butt Rover. Genius my butt. The man is a disaster. A genius wouldn’t have gotten caught.

ccmask @ 125

It’s so hard to feel compassion towards Israel.

I don’t know, it’s not hard for me and I’m Norwegian-Irish-English-American. Maybe it’s my upbringing. My grandfather was raised in an area of Chicago where he learned Yiddish and, up until I was 18, I thought is was Norwegian. I have tried to sort through this whole deal for years and I guess I’m just too stupid to understand. Everybody is so damn sure their position is right and it just ain’t that clear to me.

CTuttle @ 134

BigMitch @ 123

As you know, I am a staunch defender of Israel. It is a sad fact that isolation of Israel in the international community led it to an association with the evil regime in South Africa. I emphasize that this is something that Israel should be embarrassed by. But Israel was engaged in a fight for its existence.

No doubt, the Israel-Union of South Africa alliance influences Desmond Tutt’s opinions of Israel. Who can blame him?

As I have said, engaging in criticism of Israel is fair play. Comparing the Israeli regime to Hitler’s is unjustified, and wrong. I choose not to call it hate speech, but those who do, have a strong case to make. (It is hard for me to accept that the snippet in #93 is the extent of what he said.)

As to winning the Nobel Peace Prize: so did Yasser Arafat, an early adopter of the techniques of terrorism, the man who brought us airplane hi-jackings. And when has the anti-Israel left stopped calling Menachem Begin a terrorist?

Oh, he’s an Episcopal Arch Bishop, too. How are those guys on gay rights?

Staunch you are, Mitch, sometimes to a fault… Jimmy Carter who occupies the same rarefied air, has harshly condemned Israeli practices…!!! *peace* *g*

What happened? You went two runs up, and now the truce is off?

My feelings towards Israel match my feelings towards America. I used to like them both very much, but now they are run by lunatics and I can’t believe in them to do the right things anymore.

-GSD

oddmommy @ 121

I wish everyone would lay off the Hitler/Nazi invective. I mean everyone, from Desmond Tutu down to every last bloviating right wing asshole. It’s offensive, and it’s really getting old.

Greenwald had a great piece about it the other day….I’m too tired to find it now but y’all know where he lives.

I did have a question about something he said though…..Why would the Wiesenthal Institute support Rupert Murdick? Mitch, can ya help me here?

The Wisenthal Institue does really weird things. Taylor Marsh did a post where she proved that allegations against Iran by the Institute were patently false. Don’t have the link. Edit: There were a bunch of posts by Taylor Marsh that make for interesting reading. The Simon Wiesenthal Inst. seems compromised in my view. http://www.taylormarsh.com/arc…..hp?id=2401
I used to receive emials from them, now I don’t want to have to scrutinize every thing that comes through my box. Not like that.

oddmommy @ 129

Hi mui!
hey, are you on Facebook?

You know I tried to set something up, but it said I was banned or something. I don’ tget it.

BigMitch @ 137

CTuttle @ 134

Staunch you are, Mitch, sometimes to a fault… Jimmy Carter who occupies the same rarefied air, has harshly condemned Israeli practices…!!! *peace* *g*

What happened? You went two runs up, and now the truce is off?

Sorry, we got crossed up in the Toobz, speaking of which, what happened to KUDO’s Bombshell???

GSD @ 138

My feelings towards Israel match my feelings towards America. I used to like them both very much, but now they are run by lunatics and I can’t believe in them to do the right things anymore.

-GSD

Good point.

Loo Hoo. @ 142

GSD @ 138

My feelings towards Israel match my feelings towards America. I used to like them both very much, but now they are run by lunatics and I can’t believe in them to do the right things anymore.

-GSD

Good point.

I’ll up the ante–pretty sure both will do really evil things.

BTW, both are settler countries, as was Soth Africa. Don’t think it’s a coinky dink. Think the settler mentality poisons the soul.

Heard on NPR today about a big meeting of rightwing fundamentalists in Israel. Making preparations for Armageddon and the Rapture. They interviewed a couple who were decked out in oversized rubber cowboy hats, you know the kind you see on any football Sunday, and all I could think of was Homer Simpson. Much of the country has morphed into doofus cartoon characters.

Ed*ard Teller @ 18

OT, but it seems important – Nobel Peace Prize Laureate Archbishop Desmond Tutu has been banned from giving a speech at the University of St. Thomas in Minneapolis. Has that been discussed here yet?

News to me, infuriating and depressing.

OTOH dear ET your comment helped me remember that the Honorable Al Gore may soon join Bishop Tutu as a Nobel Peace Prize Laureate. ;~)

ReElect President Gore in 2008!

Bluetoe @ 144

Heard on NPR today about a big meeting of rightwing fundamentalists in Israel. Making preparations for Armageddon and the Rapture. They interviewed a couple who were decked out in oversized rubber cowboy hats, you know the kind you see on any football Sunday, and all I could think of was Homer Simpson. Much of the country has morphed into doofus cartoon characters.

Sick. I wonder if Murdoch believes in the Rapture. More like the Raptor.

Bluetoe @ 144

Heard on NPR today about a big meeting of rightwing fundamentalists in Israel. Making preparations for Armageddon and the Rapture. They interviewed a couple who were decked out in oversized rubber cowboy hats, you know the kind you see on any football Sunday, and all I could think of was Homer Simpson. Much of the country has morphed into doofus cartoon characters.

Depressing, neh??? 8-(

England has an official church, and the monarch is the head of the church. The P.M. (Blair) had to wait until he was out of office to convert to Roman Catholicism, his church of choice.

Yet nobody accuses Britain of being run by religious crazies. Israel is a Jewish state. If you don’t like that, tough shit on you. But the fact is that it is not run by religious fanatics.

There are religious fanatics in Israel. As there are here. In Israel they weild far less power than here. They are a headache for the government.

What is especially ironic is the fact that the religion of Judaism is unusual in that it has survived and indeed thrived in conditions of persecution. In Isreal, where this is not so strongly perceived, the religion is suffering. Jewish religious leaders outside Israel worry that the ethnic identity of “Israeli” will replace “Jewish,” to the detriment of the religion. Against this backdrop it would be funny to hear lefties saying Israel is run by religious fanatics, except for the fact that it lumps Israel with some rather evil regimes.

Bluetoe @ 144

Heard on NPR today about a big meeting of rightwing fundamentalists in Israel. Making preparations for Armageddon and the Rapture. They interviewed a couple who were decked out in oversized rubber cowboy hats, you know the kind you see on any football Sunday, and all I could think of was Homer Simpson. (snip)

Or George W. Bush?

raven @ 136

ccmask @ 125

It’s so hard to feel compassion towards Israel.

I don’t know, it’s not hard for me and I’m Norwegian-Irish-English-American. Maybe it’s my upbringing. My grandfather was raised in an area of Chicago where he learned Yiddish and, up until I was 18, I thought is was Norwegian. I have tried to sort through this whole deal for years and I guess I’m just too stupid to understand. Everybody is so damn sure their position is right and it just ain’t that clear to me.

same here. I’m Greek American, grew up in NYC and have had many beloved Jewish friends all my life.

As some say, maybe it’s just me — but I feel very strongly about the Holocaust and Israel’s right to exist.

I took my mom to Israel for her 70th birthday..We traveled with some fundies- as that was what she wanted. They’re pretty weird about the place. Israelis figure they’re nuts- and they probably are. It’s become an industry for capitalist minded christians- sell Israel! The tours are all bullshit- what they say about the places you visit is all bullshit- the Israelis laugh behind their backs at what idiots they are as they know the truth about these “sacred sites”..

From TPM June 07

The House Judiciary Committee has a copy of Simpson’s affidavit for review, but has not scheduled a date for a hearing on the issue.

I don’t get it. What’s the hold up?

Badwater @ 81 -

“Bush the Democratic incumbant”.

Faux noise screws up every other screen label…….why not that one?

Israel is more and more dominated by orthodox jews- who apparently have much larger families than the largely sectarian balance of the country. They’re hard liners on “foreign policy” but very warm to govt. welfare payments. Many ordinary Israelis detest them- but they have lots of political control- at least that’s what I was told during my visit.

BigMitch @ 148

England has an official church, and the monarch is the head of the church. The P.M. (Blair) had to wait until he was out of office to convert to Roman Catholicism, his church of choice.

Yet nobody accuses Britain of being run by religious crazies. Israel is a Jewish state. If you don’t like that, tough shit on you. But the fact is that it is not run by religious fanatics.

There are religious fanatics in Israel. As there are here. In Israel they weild far less power than here. They are a headache for the government.

What is especially ironic is the fact that the religion of Judaism is unusual in that it has survived and indeed thrived in conditions of persecution. In Isreal, where this is not so strongly perceived, the religion is suffering. Jewish religious leaders outside Israel worry that the ethnic identity of “Israeli” will replace “Jewish,” to the detriment of the religion. Against this backdrop it would be funny to hear lefties saying Israel is run by religious fanatics, except for the fact that it lumps Israel with some rather evil regimes.

The relationship bet the Anglican Church, the monarchy, and the UK gov is hardly comparable to Judaism, Zionism & Israel–differs by about 700 years of practice.

I don’t think that the original zi*n*sts were all that religious- were they soc*al*sts?

As some say, maybe it’s just me — but I feel very strongly about the Holocaust and Israel’s right to exist.

As Germany was the perp, why notcarve out a piece of that country for the Jews? Palestine didn’t have anything to do with the Holocaust. Why do the Palestinians have to pay the full price for Hitler’s sins?

The World is tired of Bush’s NeoCon Imperialism, usurping of resources, endless warmongering, and the greenback stranglehold on petro. Soon GWB will include Vietnam and China, as the 4th and 5th axis of evil. “Vietnam is planning to cut its purchases of US Treasuries and other dollar bonds, raising fears that Asian central banks with control over two thirds of the world’s foreign reserves may soon join the flight from US assets.“…There have been reports that China is already pulling out of US bonds to fund its new sovereign wealth fund
Here’s an interesting tidbit about Iran: “Iran said it would soon refuse to accept dollars for its oil exports, preferring to be paid in a “more credible currency”….OPEC and Asia have been the two blocks funding the US current account deficit,” said Hans Redeker, currency chief at BNP Paribas.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/mon…..iet103.xml

Congress is in neck deep with the industrial military complex and refuses to reign in GWB’s NeoCon warmongering Imperialistic goals. So the world has taken on the task of slowing down the one eyed cyclops and releasing a financial tsumani. The Evil Empire does need world cooperation to finance it’s Imperialistic nightmare.

Lots of injustice associated with the birth of Israel- but those eggs can’t be unscrambled now. One has to figure out how to deal with what IS. History provides great blinders.

rwcole @ 151

I took my mom to Israel for her 70th birthday..We traveled with some fundies- as that was what she wanted. They’re pretty weird about the place. Israelis figure they’re nuts- and they probably are. It’s become an industry for capitalist minded christians- sell Israel! The tours are all bullshit- what they say about the places you visit is all bullshit- the Israelis laugh behind their backs at what idiots they are as they know the truth about these “sacred sites”..

Didn’t Pat Robertson want to build a theme park. But Israel eventially said no? I can just imagine something with plastic looking figurines and architecture imitating a sort of Masada a la Hollywood meets Pigeon Forge meets Disneyland look. With pork rinds.

rwcole @ 158

Lots of injustice associated with the birth of Israel- but those eggs can’t be unscrambled now. One has to figure out how to deal with what IS. History provides great blinders.

The Palestinians will be pleased to know that you regard them as srambled eggs.

Maybe because Israel & its policies remind me of the policies of Bush. There doesn’t seem to be a lot of give and take. It’s their way or the highway. My sons best three friends are from South Africa (ages 17,19, 21) are always going back & forth to their relatives in Israel and you cannot say one wrong thing about Bush in front of them. I mean they get viscious. Republicans thru & thru. Great kids though and I love them dearly. We’ve had them in our lives for years and years, and I hope forever. So, I have this problem, thru & thru, with Bush lovers.

Mui

Someone did- SOUNDS like Robertson. Lots of people doin it in a small way—like the folks who have their OWN version of the garden tomb that you can visit for a small fee.

To think that a larger majority in Congress and a Democratic President is all that’s needed to undo the damage done by this administration is Pollyanish. The Dems are as complicit as the Republicans in promoting endless war and feeding the military industrial complex. America needs a truly revolutionary party that is willing to challange and expose the myths of American exceptionalism.

eCAHNomics @ 156

As some say, maybe it’s just me — but I feel very strongly about the Holocaust and Israel’s right to exist.

As Germany was the perp, why notcarve out a piece of that country for the Jews? Palestine didn’t have anything to do with the Holocaust. Why do the Palestinians have to pay the full price for Hitler’s sins?

ding

rwcole @ 158

Lots of injustice associated with the birth of Israel- but those eggs can’t be unscrambled now. One has to figure out how to deal with what IS. History provides great blinders.

My personal preferred solution would likely piss everyone off – a “greater” Israel, with civil rights, electoral rights, and equality for all its citizens – Jewish and Palestinian. Impossible, I know. But no more impossible than the current untenable situation.

Fern

Makes sense- but apparently if all the palestinians who want to return to Israel are allowed to- they would form a majority…

I wonder if Jane is watching Quentin Tar*ntIno on Iconoclasts right now?

rwcole @ 166

Fern

Makes sense- but apparently if all the palestinians who want to return to Israel are allowed to- they would form a majority…

I’m envisioning a state that includes the current occupied territories. And I don’t care about the Palestinian majority.

Cahn

Well yeah- Mexico should go back to the Aztecs too- but it ain’t a gonna happen.

Fern @ 165

rwcole @ 158

Lots of injustice associated with the birth of Israel- but those eggs can’t be unscrambled now. One has to figure out how to deal with what IS. History provides great blinders.

My personal preferred solution would likely piss everyone off – a “greater” Israel, with civil rights, electoral rights, and equality for all its citizens – Jewish and Palestinian. Impossible, I know. But no more impossible than the current untenable situation.

There is NO solution for Palestine/Israel, just like there’s NO solution for Iraq anymore. Recognize an endless morass when you see it & call it for what it is. But never lose sight of who came out on top & who got scr*wed.

rwcole @ 163

Mui

Someone did- SOUNDS like Robertson. Lots of people doin it in a small way—like the folks who have their OWN version of the garden tomb that you can visit for a small fee.

Jeebus & pork rinds.

Fern- I don’t care either- but it would be a deal breaker for Israel I suspect.

eCAHNomics says @143

I’ll up the ante–pretty sure both will do really evil things.

BTW, both are settler countries, as was Soth Africa. Don’t think it’s a coinky dink. Think the settler mentality poisons the soul.

This is a subject worthy of anthropologists exploring with some serious research. So many countries settled by colonial countries, superimposing themselves on the local culture, seem to go belly-up over time. The Dutch were in Indonesia 350 and twenty years after the Indonesians threw them out (along with the Dutch Indonesians) you would never know the Dutch had been there. South Africa has been reclaimed by the previous culture. Zimbabwe, the same. All were settled by a superimposing European people. Some were shorter periods of time such as India, Burma, Vietnam. There seems to be a pattern here. Any other input?

eCAHNomics @ 169

Fern @ 165

My personal preferred solution would likely piss everyone off – a “greater” Israel, with civil rights, electoral rights, and equality for all its citizens – Jewish and Palestinian. Impossible, I know. But no more impossible than the current untenable situation.

There is NO solution for Palestine/Israel, just like there’s NO solution for Iraq anymore. Recognize an endless morass when you see it & call it for what it is. But never lose sight of who came out on top & who got scr*wed.

Also true.

BigMitch @ 84

Comparing Israel to Hitler is pretty damned offensive. And unjustified.

Tutu is not being denied a forum because he is anti-Semitic, nor even because he is critical of Israel. Rather he chose to engage in inflamatory speech, which some would call “hate-speech.”

By presenting the other side of this argument, I am not saying that I agree with the conclusion that he should not be invited to speak. But I do believe we should be clear-minded and even handed.

Is there any level of discourse which is below the standards of acceptability for a public institution?

MoveOn.com has a pretty full plate these days.

I agree that comparing Israel to Hitler is unjustified. However, I believe that it should not be out of bounds to compare and contrast Hitler’s policies towards Jews and other non-”Aryans” with the policies of some Z*on*sts towards Palestinians and the policies of some Americans (like Andrew Jackson) towards American Indians.

At the base of all of these is the denial of the humanity of people considered an unholy Other, and a parallel denial of human rights, in the context of lumping all members of the group together as equally repugnant, regardless of any deeds actually committed. And let’s not get hung up here on legal niceties: If a certain group of people are treated like dogs or pigs, over and over, with impunity, it doesn’t matter what the unenforced laws may say about dogs/pigs, because the actions speak louder than words.

Now if you have actual evidence of Tutu’s “hate speech,” I’d like to see it, because I don’t recognize that type of language in anything I have seen written about what he says.

And yes, we need to acknowledge degrees of difference here: I would not accuse any Jewish leader that I know about with the same degree of hate speech used by either Hitler. But I do worry about the slippery slope, and inhuman treatment towards whole groups of people based on their ethnicity, no matter what the justifications or rationalizations.

I also greatly respect the work of Rabbi Lerner, Tikkun, Jewish Voices for Peace, and the journalism of Ha’aretz. I suspect that most Israelis want an honest peace. But they keep electing leaders like George Bush.

Bob in HI

How about a “greater state” for ALL fundies somewhere on Mars?

rwcole @ 156

I don’t think that the original zi*n*sts were all that religious- were they soc*al*sts?

Differnet kinds I think. Some of those vintage a la Euro ca1930s were soc*al*sts I believe. There’s lots of interesting lit on that.

rwcole @ 171

Fern- I don’t care either- but it would be a deal breaker for Israel I suspect.

I know. Didn’t say I was practical!

rwcole @ 168

Cahn

Well yeah- Mexico should go back to the Aztecs too- but it ain’t a gonna happen.

The Aztecs hardly exist as aself-identified group anymore. There are 4-6 millions Palestinians in the world who are dispossed, almost all of whom still self-identify as Palestinians.

Besides,I regard Morales’ election as perhaps a first step in the originals getting back what belongs to them south of the border. So maybe it’ll happen after all.

Call me naive, but didn’t this start with Isaiah and Ishmael?
Bad Blood for a really long time.
Hatfields and McCoys.
North and South.?
Sunnis and Shia(t)es?
We can’t fix Everything.
We can’t even feed or insure our children.

Cahn

True- and if the Aztecs DID exist- they’d have an historic debt to the people they stole central Mexico from…things get cloudy with time.

eCAHNomics @ 176

rwcole @ 168

Cahn

Well yeah- Mexico should go back to the Aztecs too- but it ain’t a gonna happen.

The Aztecs hardly exist as aself-identified group anymore. There are 4-6 millions Palestinians in the world who are dispossed, almost all of whom still self-identify as Palestinians.

Besides,I regard Morales’ election as perhaps a first step in the originals getting back what belongs to them south of the border. So maybe it’ll happen after all.

See, the trick is in mostly killing off the aboriginal population. North America could give lessons. Also Australia.

Though in some provinces in Canada, with Aboriginal birth rates so much higher than anyone else’s, there is expected to be a big shift in the demographic balance.

QuakerGirl@172
Thank you for expanding on my point. Do you think the book has already been written, but we don’t know about it? Or perhaps the book has not yet been written because history is written by the winners, and the now-free formerly settled societies have not been winners long enough to have the perspective?

demi @ 177

Call me naive, but didn’t this start with Isaiah and Ishmael?
Bad Blood for a really long time.
Hatfields and McCoys.
North and South.?
Sunnis and Shia(t)es?
We can’t fix Everything.
We can’t even feed or insure our children.

Isaiah and Ishmael are highly mythologized in the Biblical accounts. More of a justification/rationalization in their function than a true history or reason for the current state of affairs.

Correction – it’s not Isaiah – he was one of the prophets – much later on – I should have said Isaac.

See, the trick is in mostly killing off the aboriginal population. North America could give lessons. Also Australia.

That’s also the only (nearly) sure-fire way to win insugencies. Contrary case was Soviets in Afghanistan. They did grid the place & slaughter the whole pop in certain grids but still lost the war.

QuakerGirl @ 174

eCAHNomics says @143

I’ll up the ante–pretty sure both will do really evil things.

BTW, both are settler countries, as was Soth Africa. Don’t think it’s a coinky dink. Think the settler mentality poisons the soul.

This is a subject worthy of anthropologists exploring with some serious research. So many countries settled by colonial countries, superimposing themselves on the local culture, seem to go belly-up over time. The Dutch were in Indonesia 350 and twenty years after the Indonesians threw them out (along with the Dutch Indonesians) you would never know the Dutch had been there. South Africa has been reclaimed by the previous culture. Zimbabwe, the same. All were settled by a superimposing European people. Some were shorter periods of time such as India, Burma, Vietnam. There seems to be a pattern here. Any other input?

Well look at the Chinese diaspora. Many settled in Vietnam, Malaysia etc. throughout history. Some were losers in history. Some generals and warlords. Persons of Chinese ethnic backgroudn I know from those countries often consider themselves tend to be more Malaysian and Vietnamese than Chinese from my perspective (in language, habits everthing). Then some demagogue can come along and act as though they don’t belong when in fact they’ve been there for centuries.
The there are the force-settled areas (T*bet & Mongolia). But that is a differnet story IMHO.

1,617 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..

Citizen BigMitch and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:

OK brother Mitch, since none of the other Firepups wants ta waste their breath on yer pathetic nonsense, I will. So strap it up and getcher flak jacket on, there’s in-comin’ into yer perimeter.

You and folks like you who apologize for Israeli fascism in Palestine and it’s political terrorism in this country, need to be called out and given a civics lesson in democracy. First of all, no matter what Tutu has said about Israeli policies and practices in the West Bank and Gaza, he has the right to speak upon invitation ANY damned where in this country that he is invited. The organized political pressure on institutions like St. Thomas or De Paul or any other to keep him from speaking is nothing more than political terrorism. Boycott, picket, have and alternative speaker elsewhere on campus but to use coercion on the institution and intimidation of faculty to keep students from hearing a point of view is classic fascism and terrorist tactics. In this case, it is indeed interesting that Israeli fascists and their apologists like you want to keep Tutu out of the open air in the light of Israel’s cozy relationship with the former apartheid government of South Africa. Oh the irony of history, it’s God’s sense a humor.

We are engaged in a fight for the very survival of our democracy in this country right now and one of the fronts in this battle is in the daily occupation and dare I say GENOCIDE being perpetrated on Palestinians with our tax money and our military cover.

I’ve got ta give it to ya Mitch, you’ve got chutzpuh ta try and defend the indefensible in this forum in front of this audience but I think ya need ta go spend some time readin’ folks like Eric Alterman (he’s got a great post jest today that might be able ta reach yer remainin 2 er 3 brain cellz)…I am one American citizen that is tired of seein’ thousands die in no small measure because of the public money my country continues to grant Israel in a quid pro quo for our corporate oil interests.

So …enough Mitch, you don’t do yourself or Israel’s legitimate interests any good tryin’ ta justify lies and terrorism.

KEEP THE FAITH AND GET THAT SHIT OUTTA MY YARD!!

The analogy of family is a part of the great spiritually expository myth embedded in the Bible. It is an outgrowth of that metaphore that conflicts between races and states are described as “family conflicts” where one half of the clan turned against righteousness and left the fold.

eCAHNomics @ 182

See, the trick is in mostly killing off the aboriginal population. North America could give lessons. Also Australia.

That’s also the only (nearly) sure-fire way to win insugencies. Contrary case was Soviets in Afghanistan. They did grid the place & slaughter the whole pop in certain grids but still lost the war.

Depends how thorough you are – and in North America, there was also disease and other factors – and huge discrepancies in the types of weapons available.

Touch-toe Bathroom Stall Larry ain’t having a good day today. Nothing like scandal dragging the GOP back into their swamp. Pull out the kleenex:
“In a statement just hours after a Minnesota court refused to let him withdraw his guilty plea to a misdemeanor charge of disorderly conduct, Craig said he planned to complete his third term that ends in January 2009.”http://www.reuters.com/article…..geNumber=1

Genocide was a well respected tradition in the times described by the Bible- and the Bible gives it good press- putting the command to kill all enemy- men, women, and children- in the mouth of the Lord. If they’re all dead- they won’t cause more trouble.

Fern @ 182

demi @ 177

Call me naive, but didn’t this start with Isaiah and Ishmael?
Bad Blood for a really long time.
Hatfields and McCoys.
North and South.?
Sunnis and Shia(t)es?
We can’t fix Everything.
We can’t even feed or insure our children.

Isaiah and Ishmael are highly mythologized in the Biblical accounts. More of a justification/rationalization in their function than a true history or reason for the current state of affairs.

Correction – it’s not Isaiah – he was one of the prophets – much later on – I should have said Isaac.

Said I was being naive. If the bible is the mythologized version, where can I find the more historic version?
I’m not being sarcastic. I know that the bible has been translated many many times and edited ad nauseum, so if the myth is to rationalize, where can I read a summary of what the long, long, on-going feud stems from?
I mean without going back to college and spending the rest of my life researching this.

demi

The Bible’s a big ol book- and the parts of it have very different histories and purposes. I like the book “Who wrote the Bible” for some background on the process.

Bible myths:
Isn’t the point that we don’t know what the historically accruate version was?
Ooops. The fundies are now out to get me.

demi @ 189

Fern @ 182

Isaiah and Ishmael are highly mythologized in the Biblical accounts. More of a justification/rationalization in their function than a true history or reason for the current state of affairs.

Correction – it’s not Isaiah – he was one of the prophets – much later on – I should have said Isaac.

Said I was being naive. If the bible is the mythologized version, where can I find the more historic version?
I’m not being sarcastic. I know that the bible has been translated many many times and edited ad nauseum, so if the myth is to rationalize, where can I read a summary of what the long, long, on-going feud stems from?
I mean without going back to college and spending the rest of my life researching this.

I suggest a very good, quite short, and extremely readable book by Karen Armstrong – the name of which I forget but will look up pronto.

The problem is not so much the translation as the original writing, which happened very long after the (alleged) events described. Think of the myths of origin of any culture and you won’t be far off.

Be right back.

eCAHNomics @ 194

Bible myths:
Isn’t the point that we don’t know what the historically accruate version was?
Ooops. The fundies are now out to get me.

Each of those churches show certain books, which they call revelation, or the word of God. The Jews say, that their word of God was given by God to Moses, face to face; the Christians say, that their word of God came by divine inspiration: and the Turks say, that their word of God (the Koran) was brought by an angel from Heaven. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all. Thomas Paine

rwcole @ 191

demi

The Bible’s a big ol book- and the parts of it have very different histories and purposes. I like the book “Who wrote the Bible” for some background on the process.

Thanks, RW. I’ll look that one up.
I don’t believe everything I read (anywhere) and I like the Context Of Things.

John Dean on KO: These people feel no shame.

demi

There isn’t much real history about the events described in the Bible..although it appears that the originators of the Jewish faith were probably never captives in Egypt- probably lived in the land now known as the holy land for centuries before the events described in the Bible and probably were Baal worshippers and worshippers of a fertility godess- and probably had many wars with other tribes that got exaggerated and woven into the history of the Bible.

Demi:

In the Beginning: A New Interpretation of Genesis

Linkie

eCAHNomics @ 183

QuakerGirl@172
Thank you for expanding on my point. Do you think the book has already been written, but we don’t know about it? Or perhaps the book has not yet been written because history is written by the winners, and the now-free formerly settled societies have not been winners long enough to have the perspective?

I am one of those strange people who love books by anthropologists. I think I was born with that quirk. One of my favorite field researchers is Jared Diamond. He is getting close to the subject. Guns, Germs and Steel hits on the subject, enough to give the reader some further insight.

The other is Collapse. He is inspired by a simple question, the kind most people dismiss. “What was the guy thinking who cut down the last tree on Easter Island?” The people who had settled on this island did so because it was rich and provided them with a good life. Trees were every where. The people used up their primary resource, never conserving and replanting. They “exterminated” themselves. He compares this to the US. I could also compare it to Indonesia. The Dutch plundered that country for 350 years. Took out but never put in. What in the human psyche sees what is happening but does nothing to turn it around.

rwcole @ 196

demi

There isn’t much real history about the events described in the Bible..although it appears that the originators of the Jewish faith were probably never captives in Egypt- probably lived in the land now known as the holy land for centuries before the events described in the Bible and probably were Baal worshippers and worshippers of a fertility godess- and probably had many wars with other tribes that got exaggerated and woven into the history of the Bible.

Well, some bits have more historical basis than others – but the farther back you go, the shakier it gets.

I don’t accept the notion of any religious state. What that equates to is that I don’t want my tax dollars supporting ANY religious state. I don’t think people should be discriminated for their religious beliefs more or less, but some religious beliefs and practices are misogynistic and rather nasty. Hopefully these true believers can be educated like Hirsi Ali and leave their insane faiths behind. Frankly the fanatic jews are as scary as the fanatic moslems.. you remember Kahae and that guy who shot up a mosque on the West Bank.

Let Israel take care of itself. If they are attacked then other nations can come to their defense as appropriate. I’ve been to Israel and sitting on a bus with 17 yr olds carrying Uzis is not my idea of security.

SanderO @ 200

I don’t accept the notion of any religious state. What that equates to is that I don’t want my tax dollars supporting ANY religious state. I don’t think people should be discriminated for their religious beliefs more or less, but some religious beliefs and practices are misogynistic and rather nasty. Hopefully these true believers can be educated like Hirsi Ali and leave their insane faiths behind. Frankly the fanatic jews are as scary as the fanatic moslems.. you remember Kahae and that guy who shot up a mosque on the West Bank.

Let Israel take care of itself. If they are attacked then other nations can come to their defense as appropriate. I’ve been to Israel and sitting on a bus with 17 yr olds carrying Uzis is not my idea of security.

I’ve been meeting a surprising number of Israelis of eastern European origin who have now moved to my city – mostly people with youngish families. The local Jewish community is supporting them in moving here. Israel is not an easy place to live, and not just for the obvious reasons.

Fern, Thank you, thank you for the link. Saved and will find it.
One of the many benefits of this site is conversing with curious others.
I will find the book and read it.
‘Cause I wanna know.
Somewhere between Faux News sound bites and getting a Master’s in Ancient History.
Again, thanks.
See you upstairs.

SanderO @ 204

I don’t accept the notion of any religious state. What that equates to is that I don’t want my tax dollars supporting ANY religious state. I don’t think people should be discriminated for their religious beliefs more or less, but some religious beliefs and practices are misogynistic and rather nasty. Hopefully these true believers can be educated like Hirsi Ali and leave their insane faiths behind. Frankly the fanatic jews are as scary as the fanatic moslems.. you remember Kahae and that guy who shot up a mosque on the West Bank.

Let Israel take care of itself. If they are attacked then other nations can come to their defense as appropriate. I’ve been to Israel and sitting on a bus with 17 yr olds carrying Uzis is not my idea of security.

Amen. All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit. Thomas Paine

Israel should be a mutli religious secular state… end of story.

demi @ 202

Fern, Thank you, thank you for the link. Saved and will find it.
One of the many benefits of this site is conversing with curious others.
I will find the book and read it.
‘Cause I wanna know.
Somewhere between Faux News sound bites and getting a Master’s in Ancient History.
Again, thanks.
See you upstairs.

Talking to myself down here again, am I?

You are most welcome.

SanderO @ 204

Israel should be a mutli religious secular state… end of story.

Israel is a bit of an odd phenomenon when so many other countries are becoming increasingly diverse in culture and religion. Personally, I think that the more diverse any given environment is, the safer any given minority will be.

Fern got it… badda bing.. diversity is security

Freddie apparently resurrected the “Soviet Union” today during a campaign speech- meant Russia I guess… OOPS- makes Clusterfuck seem like a geo-political genius.

It’s not goin well fer Freddie.

BigMitch @ 123

As you know, I am a staunch defender of Israel ….

… when has the anti-Israel left stopped calling Menachem Begin a terrorist?
…

I’m confused. Is there an “anti-Israel left”?

And, wasn’t Begin proud to be a terrorist/nationalist/freedom-fighter?

It’s clear Israel is in a tough spot. America supports them.

Actually though the relationship is a bit stranger than most people consider. Candidates for political office receive money from American Jews and they expect the Israeli line to receive a LOT of attention. Perhaps MOST bizarre is that there is a political war going on over political campaign contributions. The NeoCons are by and large US-Israeli dual citizenship, but many Repubs are affiliated with religious types who support Israel for their own religious reasons and that gives the national Repub party a reason to join the huge fight for Jewish campaign contributions. IT IS HUGE.

Then you have the atrocious Israeli behavior toward Palestinians (not unwarranted in light of suicide bombers, but still nasty) and the Israeli relationship to S. Africa and their interference with proper US foreign policy and it becomes obvious this is an unhealthy relationship all around.

We need a separation, not necessarily a divorce, but a little space.

BigMitch @ 148

…
Israel is a Jewish state. If you don’t like that, tough shit on you. But the fact is that it is not run by religious fanatics.

Then tell them to prove it by removing the West Bank settlements and stop trashing the area.

…
What is especially ironic is the fact that the religion of Judaism is unusual in that it has survived and indeed thrived in conditions of persecution. In Isreal, where this is not so strongly perceived, the religion is suffering. Jewish religious leaders outside Israel worry that the ethnic identity of “Israeli” will replace “Jewish,” to the detriment of the religion.

Is it inevitable a schism would develop between national identity and religion when they already allow non Jewish Israelis? How much homogeneity is required to maintain perpetual bliss?

Against this backdrop it would be funny to hear lefties saying Israel is run by religious fanatics, except for the fact that it lumps Israel with some rather evil regimes.

Like most Democracies it serves many interests and it just so happens some in Israel are, as you said, wacky (just like here). In that part of the world wacky can get a lot of people hurt. Is there no way to dampen those tendencies in the name of national survival, even at the cost of having to give up West Bank settlements and this continual apartheid-like treatment of their neighbors?

I would really really like for them to cut back on grabbing America by the b*lls and swinging us around like a big club in the Middle East.

Waccamaw @ 153

Badwater @ 81 -

“Bush the Democratic incumbant”.

Faux noise screws up every other screen label…….why not that one?

Did they really misspell ‘incumbent’?

Oh well, at least they’re not a Conservative Bush Republican outfit.

QuakerGirl @ 174

eCAHNomics says @143

I’ll up the ante–pretty sure both will do really evil things.

BTW, both are settler countries, as was Soth Africa. Don’t think it’s a coinky dink. Think the settler mentality poisons the soul.

This is a subject worthy of anthropologists exploring with some serious research. So many countries settled by colonial countries, superimposing themselves on the local culture, seem to go belly-up over time. The Dutch were in Indonesia 350 and twenty years after the Indonesians threw them out (along with the Dutch Indonesians) you would never know the Dutch had been there. South Africa has been reclaimed by the previous culture. Zimbabwe, the same. All were settled by a superimposing European people. Some were shorter periods of time such as India, Burma, Vietnam. There seems to be a pattern here. Any other input?

Not to forget the “Scotish Plantations” in Ireland, that bell hasn’t been stilled yet – take Ian Paisley – please Dog, take him before more harm is done (devil is even more welcome to have that soul). Presbyterian, my arse!!