This is getting absurd:
Banning Desmond Tutu
[]
[I]n a move that still has faculty members shaking their heads in disbelief, St. Thomas administrators—concerned that Tutu’s appearance might offend local Jews—told organizers that a visit from the archbishop was out of the question.
“We had heard some things he said that some people judged to be anti-Semitic and against Israeli policy,” says Doug Hennes, St. Thomas’s vice president for university and government relations. “We’re not saying he’s anti-Semitic. But he’s compared the state of Israel to Hitler and our feeling was that making moral equivalencies like that are hurtful to some members of the Jewish community.”
St. Thomas officials made this inference after Hennes talked to Julie Swiler, a spokeswoman for the Jewish Community Relations Council of Minnesota and the Dakotas.
“I told him that I’d run across some statements that were of concern to me,” says Swiler. “In a 2002 speech in Boston, he made some comments that were especially hurtful.”
During that speech, titled “Occupation Is Oppression,” Tutu lambasted the Israeli government for its treatment of Palestinians in occupied territories. While a transcription clearly suggests his criticism was aimed at the Israeli government (”We don’t criticize the Jewish people,” he said during the speech. “We criticize, we will criticize when they need to be criticized, the government of Israel”), pro-Israeli organizations such as the Zionist Organization of America went on the offensive and protested campus appearances by Tutu, accusing him of anti-Semitism.
[]
That was news to Marv Davidov, an adjunct professor within the Justice and Peace Studies program.
“As a Jew who experienced real anti-Semitism as a child, I’m deeply disturbed that a man like Tutu could be labeled anti-Semitic and silenced like this,” he says. “I deeply resent the Israeli lobby trying to silence any criticism of its policy. It does a great disservice to Israel and to all Jews.”
The controversy didn’t end there. Incensed at the administration’s decision, Professor Cris Toffolo—chair of the Justice and Peace Studies program at the time—sent Tutu a letter on May 24 informing him of the administration’s decision. She also indicated her disagreement with the move and warned Tutu that he might be in for a smear campaign.
You know, Bill O’Reilly sits there and compares anybody with a liberal opinion to Nazis every night and none of these organizations ever says a damn thing. I guess this has been another episode of IOKIYAR.
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Jane!
Jane!
ha
Uh oh, Okay folks don’t get your Tutu’s in a ruffle..)
The standard these days for being an anti-Semite has dropped almost as low as for being a Democratic “leader”. I’m learning to just accept being called offensive.
The spinning circle of doom told me to look upstairs.
hes too astute
Eureka Springs @ 4
I feel a tutu coming on around here. Duck and cover.
Eureka Springs @ 4
Particularly here in the isles…!!! ;-)
Bustednuckles @ 7
lol
How about we just create a virtual St. Thomas background for the Arch Bishop and spread his speech live and on youtube across the net?
9/11 – thought I’d throw in the other “taboo” for spice or is it soupcon. *g*
F*ck the Jewish lobby. Who the hell are they to silence anyone from speaking?
Jeez we saw that Ahmedinijad was given a microphone at Columbia and probably mis translated.
Tuttu won the Nobel Peace Prize for dogssake!
Amen, Brother…
“As a Jew who experienced real anti-Semitism as a child, I’m deeply disturbed that a man like Tutu could be labeled anti-Semitic and silenced like this…!!!” *g*
I once applied for a teaching position at the University of St. Thomas. Maybe now I understand why I didn’t get the position.
I can’t stand Abe Foxman and his ilk. These people are repulsive… really.
Interesting Free Speech case from Washington State Supreme Court today:
Supreme Court rules political lying OK in Sheldon-Rickert case
BY BRAD SHANNON
The Olympian
The state Supreme Court struck down a state law today that bars a political candidate from lying about an opponent.
The court sided with former Green Party candidate Marylou Rickert of Shelton, whose brochure included statements about Sen. Tim Sheldon that were judged untrue by the state Public Disclosure Commission.
The case was decided on a split 5-to-4 ruling. Justice Jim Johnson wrote the majority opinion, which said the state law was unconstitutional.
“The notion that the government, rather than the people, may be the final arbiter of truth in political debate is fundamentally at odds with the First Amendment,” Johnson wrote.
Justice Barbara Madsen wrote the dissent that said the majority ruling “is an invitation to lie with impunity.” She wrote that it was wrong to say “oppressive government regulation is at issue in this case.”
“When cases decided by the United States Supreme Court are properly applied, it is obvious that (the challenged law) infringes on no First Amendment rights,’’ Madsen wrote in a 30-page decision supported by Justices Bobbe Bridge, Tom Chambers and Mary Fairhurst.
Signing onto Johnson’s opinion were Justices Charles Johnson, Richard Sanders and Susan Owens.
Chief Justice Gerry Alexander provided the majority vote with his concurring opinion that said Johnson’s opinion “goes too far in concluding that any government censorship of political speech would run afoul of the First Amendment of the United States Constitution.’’
He said the U.S. court “has ruled that defamation is not protected” speech.
UPDATE: Sen. Sheldon says the ruling means “open season” for candidates.
“It’s no-holds-barred for campaign lies,’’ Sheldon told us by telephone this morning. “In my opinion the public will become even more turned off by campaigns and politics.’’
He went on to argue that “voters are the losers. … They can’t rely on a candidate to be telling the truth. There is no standard to be held to now. I thought it was a reasonable statute that said you can’t misrepresent a material fact.”
Read the opinions
Oct. 4, 2007 – 77769-1 – Rickert v. Pub. Disclosure Comm’n
Oct. 4, 2007 – 77769-1 – Rickert v. Pub. Disclosure Comm’n (Concurrence)
Oct. 4, 2007 – 77769-1 – Rickert v. Pub. Disclosure Comm’n (Dissent)
Jon Stewart would have a feast on this. Especially after his Chris Matthews bit. Does anyone have Jon Stewart’s email address?
Karen
sounds like u. calif davis
all over again.
university administrators are almost all over-ripe bananas.
So it is not the case that he was demoted for merely protesting the un-inviting of Tutu. He apparently also made a rather reckless accusation against the school administration. That’s different, isn’t it?
Well actually, most Jews are very liberal and they hate Bill O’Reilly, especially for his casual use of the Hitler analogy.
Term limits… One term and go get a real job. There is ample talent around to run the US government.
One term and go.
Public financing
No for profit corporate lobbying. NONE
pierce aero @ 18
Poetic Justice that it was a Green Candidate who was on the giving end…!!! ;-)
pierce aero,
Very interesting, I will look into that more tomorrow.
Vancouver.
Political speech is 90% lies and kabuki anyway. Who cares?
In 1984, the head of the Nobel Peace Prize committee opened his speech presenting the award to Desmond Tutu like this:
Remarkable, indeed — and Tutu was a prime reason the transition of power happened as peacefully as it did.
Okay, okay, okay, wait, wait, wait….maybe it is a red herring to get progressives to get all over the “Lobby” and then get called anti-semetic by the Repukes. Beware of the tricks of the trade.
It is heartning to witness A*P*C getting skewered I trully appreciate the goodness, wisdom and tradition of the Jewish faith. It has been a long time coming to strip that lobby of any classification of representing the best interests of Israel and Jewish people throughout the globe.
Mitch, watch out for the Indians. I am a long-time Tigers’ fan and have watched the Indians too many times this year. They are GOOD! Damn good.
epu’d. Have at it, wise ones.
ok….this is REALLY the last time I’m getting sucked into this.
Mitch, I’ve said it before….you’re a patient man. Too patient.
I have this to say to all you pious, self-righteous, judgers of Israel….ALL OF US, except OKk and Lahoma, are here now because of a certain 16th century, Mayflower-style “zionism” of our very own; mor brutal than anything Israel ever did.
So STFU about Israel….unless you’re prepared to vacate your “historic houses,” et al., and give it all back to the Native Americans.
Or is that “different”?
Get Tough @ 27
I thought we were back on the Mayflower_Exoudus debate again!
Get Tough @ 26
Only two lobbies were provided immunity from lobby reform this year, iirc. A*P*C and Aspen.
So, then, will the administrators at St. Thomas also ban Jimmy Carter from speaking at their university? Seems to me that he & Tutu are pretty much sharing the same point of view.
Bob in HI
Homerun, Indians! Mitch, the Yankees are in TROUBLE! They have NO pitching after Wang! Indians are going to sweep and win the WS for the Central boys!
Shadowstalker @ 5
so were you baiting me in your response in the last thread? Please elaborate.
I have been a member of the faculty of St. Thomas for over 30 years. I will tell you that the great majority of the faculty are having a fit about this – and are in process of making a major stink about it. With most of my colleagues, I am embarrassed, upset, infuriated about this idiotic decision – it is truly unbelievable! Peterr – I am incredibly depressed that you are not on our faculty! I am in the music department – we are all progressives and have been fighting other upsetting stupid things our administration has done. We have a great university and fine faculty. What an awful image our admin. has now presented to the country! I hope that you will all feel free to let them know of your feelings!
Gawd – I (and my colleagues) feel so upset and terrible! I suspect by the emails I have gotten from our progressive faculty group, that this story is not finished!
Thank you Jane, for bringing this forward to the country. I will send it on to the faculty group!
Ha!
raven @ 29
you know what? I don’t think this is funny anymore.
1,616 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Hamsher and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
I want to see the University of Minnesota pick up the ball on this and make Tutu welcome at Northrop Auditorium and have the topic be Israel’s occupation of Palestine and the history of Israeli foreign policy since 1976. I would particularly like to see Tutu have a forum to describe the effects of Israel’s relationship with South Africa on the battle against apartheid.
KEEP THE FAITH, NOW THE FASCISTS ARE COMPLETLY OUT OF THEIR MINDS!!
I can’t help where I was born. But I still believe the indigenous people were raked over and are owed big time.
Israel and her zealotous followers are more than annoying. Act well and no.. two wrongs don’t make one right.
oddmommy @ 35
log off
NorskeFlamethrower @ 36
you a Native American Norske?
Why is the USA pumping billions of our tax dollars into Israel, Egypt and Columbia. Why?
It is my embryonic opinion that this is being caused by “powers that be” to create division amongst those who want peace. Don’t go there.
We don’t know where and what Rove is up to, but we know it ain’t nothin’ good. Don’t go for the bait.
Noted, Oddmommy. Plenty of other blogs to talk baseball. Back to regular scheduled programming….
What a load of moral weaselry. IOW, some people call him anti-semitic but we’re not going to call him that. Being gutless wonders we will merely imply it. Then we will talk about hurt feelings but not all the hurt that Israel has visited on the Palestinians because, you know, that would take a certain amount of intellectual integrity and we don’t have any.
KathieinMN @ 34
Is there anything else that we can do? Thanks for your comments.
raven @ 38
mmmmmmmm.
I’ve been reading and not commenting.
But, yeah and mmmmmmm.
I can’t help where I was born either, too!
I’m white.
I’m straight.
I’m bright and curious.
F’ck me.
What type of school is St Thomas? Public? Catholic? Epicopalian?
oh… I’m on my senator’s massmail list, along with half the state. Today’s post was “Water conservation tips from Senator Boxer”… OK, so she didn’t bother to vote on FISA and won’t really step up on torture, habeas, Iran or virtually anything else, but she gives tips on how to save water. Cool. I think.
oddmommy, So you think this censorship is an admirable act?
Why don’t we all settle down for a minute?
There is no need to get in anyones face here.
JPL @ 45
I wish ya’ll the best of luck, Ma’am!!!
oddmommy @ 28
my epu’ed reply:
and thinking further…
3) i don’t think israelis should have to give up their homes. why do you say i should?
and what have i done to get told to STFU?
That’s why the blogs are so valuable. Outstanding to hear from a member of the community, KathieinMN. Good luck.
Tuttle, Where’s Big Mitch?
oddmommy @ 33
Goodness, no, ma’am! I was thinking about the “shocked, shocked” gooperland I live in at the moment. They can say whatever they want, but if I mention that maybe Israel is wrong about something, suddenly I’m some sort of racist anti-Semite evil librul. I just live with it.
JPL @ 54
He went to dinner.
KathieinMN @ 34
Who should we contact? Got an email addy?
Blub @ 46
KathieinMN can say more, but the short answer is private Catholic.
JPL @ 53
At dinner and prolly moping over the serious hole the Evil Empire is in…!!!
Eureka Springs @ 48
No sir. I’m not talking about that. As I said, epu’d.
Here’s an interesting point of view:
Et tu, Tutu?
Most of our parents voted for Stevenson, despised McCarthy and fought racism before the rest of America saw it was the right thing to do. We stood with Martin Luther King and were crushed when he –and John and Bobby Kennedy — were killed. We hated Nixon, boycotted grapes with Caesar Chavez, cheered for Bella and Gloria on women’s rights and defeated apartheid in South Africa.
Like most of America’s Jews, we’re LFBs — Liberals From Birth. Why? Because Jewish and American values are in almost perfect harmony.
On Israel, we were never uncritical, but loyal to the cause of a Jewish homeland and to the Jews who fought to keep it. Not only because we were Jews, but also because tiny beleaguered Israel is, or should be a, liberal cause.
But it’s not. Not now. Many of our friends disagree with us about Israel, and in increasingly disagreeable ways. They got the story wrong, from the media, from academics, and from clergy. Painfully, we see former allies, even heroes of past struggles, attacking the Jewish state — and its supporters: us.
So what will Boston’s Jews do when Desmond Tutu, the anti-apartheid hero who likens Israeli treatment of Arabs to apartheid, headlines an anti-Israel hate-fest at the Old South Church in October? The “Israel Apartheid” Conference is organized by Sabeel, whose leader says Israelis are “crucifying” Arabs like the Jews did Jesus.
The two-day rant against Israel features speakers who pose as human rights activists who care about injustice — yet their concerns are oh so selective. Israel is an “apartheid state,” they say, with an “apartheid wall.” It’s worse for Palestinians than South Africa was for blacks. It’s the world’s worst human rights situation. None of this is close to being true.
Israel’s Arab citizens vote, are elected to the Knesset, and enjoy better health care and education than most Arabs in the region. Yes, Arabs in the territories are treated differently, yet not because of their “race” — but because their leaders are at war with Israel. Israelis don’t act on the basis of race, like white South Africans did. Shame on Desmond Tutu for deliberately ignoring all this.
Calling Israel racist pleases the Sabeel-ites, but has nothing to do with a concern for justice. There is real apartheid in the Middle East — racist apartheid: blacks slaughtered and enslaved by Arabs in Sudan; gender apartheid: women in Saudi Arabia may not drive cars or walk unaccompanied; religious apartheid: churches cannot be built in Saudi Arabia and Jews can’t be citizens in Jordan. It’s not justice these folks are fixated upon, it’s the Jewish state.
Some LFB’s may have turned away from this conflict. But now it’s time to choose: When Tutu comes, many of us will protest. If the anti-Israel demagogues are led by a black man who led his people to freedom — but who attacks and defames another free people — Israel’s and America’s Jews, however liberal by nature, must decide: Which side will you be on?
Oddmommy:
One can support Israel while condemming the Israel GOVERNMENT POLICIES!
Just like we critise Bush & our Congress. That doesn’t mean we are anti-american (tho the Neocons say so!)
How will either of these countries/governments improve if no one says anything critical?
oddmommy @ 28
I think you’re confusing several issues here. One can criticize the racism of certain leaders of Israel without arguing that all Jews should “go back” to wherever they came from. Being Jewish doesn’t give anyone the right to steal land from someone else, or to treat the prior occupants as second-class citizens.
Yes, some of my ancestors did that. Some of my ancestors probably did occupy land that didn’t belong to them. And I regret that, although I wouldn’t know who to pay back at this time (and I don’t own land anymore, anyway.)
And I am a haole in Hawaii. That is one reason why, when I retire, I plan to return to the mainland. There are just too many people here anyway. But that is my choice.
So let’s keep our issues straight, please.
Bob in HI
k.. just looked at St T’s website. They’re parochial Catholic.
Strictly speaking then, I wouldn’t call this censorship. As a private sectarian school they have the right to invite or disinvite whom they want. I disagree with their decision.. and, in fact, I think it’s repugnant, but this isn’t a state action. Unlike UC Irvine’s (a public unviversity) blatently partisan action of withdrawing their offer to employ a progressive lawyer as a professor and Law School dean, I’d classify this differently. I think it’s worth condemning their actions.. what kind of religious school bars people from speaking just because they “might” offend members of a different religion? But it isn’t censorship.
raven @ 56
I figured that he was in hiding cause of the score. He normally does offer other insight though.
CTuttle @ 57
Back from dinner, but otherwise, you are correct, my friend.
CTuttle @ 57
Gilly is looking down and laughing.
EPU’d:
LS @ 134
I want Cheney and Bush and all of their cronies held accountable for torture and lying us into an illegal invasion and occupation.
Me too. Is there anything to say that they can’t be held to account after the November election? I’m pissed as hell, but I’m also wondering if the dems are taking it slow to win the presidency and the Congress more completely. I don’t understand Leahy, for example, willing to interview the new AG candidate after he said he wouldn’t without the documents he had requested. I guess, at this point, it doesn’t matter if the guilty are charged now or later. What does matter, though, is that funds be cut off for Iraq.
Peterr @ 58
Cool. let’s crank up the anti-Catholic machine. You see all those gumba’s on the supreme court coming out of mass Sunday? Talk about some motherfuckers who want to run your life.
selise @ 51
I wasn’t talking to or about you. Go back to the last thread, and I think you can see who and what I was addressing.
Anybody know what Tutu has been doing latley? Just asking.
Wow. What did y’all eat for dinner tonight…habanero pepper stew? Dang, have a shot or something and chill out. Everybody is stressed in the world right now. We need to make it better not worse. Desmond Tutu is a man of peace. Some stupid morons reject him and label him…he’s been there before, and so has everyone else at some level. Don’t fall for the bait. Fuck ‘em.
By successfully demanding censorship instead of perhaps using ones pull to be able to ask Tutu a few direct questions about a past statement is extreme and only brings further attention to that which one finds so difficult in the first place. Either way, it was a very dumb move and anti American, at least the America I consider my patriotic self to be fighting for every day.
BigMitch @ 69
Being a bishop I presume; specifically, one of my denomination’s bishops actually…
OT: “The whole system seems to be rotting at its core, and the Democratic Party — in general, with some exceptions — is but a branch of that rotting system.” Glenn Greenwald, http://letters.salon.com/opini…..1d32b.html
raven @ 29
Have you read Mayflower: A Story of Courage, Community, and War by Nathaniel Philbrick? Very interesting review of relations between the Pilgrims and the Indians.
Bob in HI
bobschacht @ 76
Does it include anything about King Phillip’s War, Bob?
Something has happened at FDL during my drive from AZ to Durango, CO. I don’t thing I will read the old threads.
BigMitch @ 59
i got my information from going to the west bank. have you been there? and stayed with palestinian families to see how they are treated?
it was the israeli settlers and soldiers that i met there who were the most important in forming my opinions about the situation.
i do think it is a kind of apartheid. and i do think it is fair to call the wall (at least in the places i saw it was to be built) an apartheid wall.
if that is wrong, i’d liked to be corrected, but with evidence to the contrary – not propaganda.
bobschacht @ 76
Oh, don’t talk about that it might offend someone.
Loo Hoo. @ 66
If they pardon each other they cannot be held accountable, but if they go full term, they can. I think they will bail “in order”…to pardon…down the line…before the term is over..leaving us with an incumbent, maybe Condi or something.
Blub @ 46: Boxer sends me emails all the time. I reply quite rudely these days (tho not as rude as The Rude One). She asked for $$ a while back and I told her I hoped she lost in her next election, she was as bad as Lieberman. Today she *thanked* me for giving her money. I replied I had not given her a penny and I hoped an Independent beat her in the next election.
I doubt anyone reads the replys, tho.
Many times now I have come late to a topic to find my friends yelling at one another about Israel. Sometimes I go back and try to figure out what has happened and sometimes not. As I am writing this in the back of my mind I hear myself saying, “Hope this isn’t my ‘can’t we all just get along’ moment.” I would like to understand the reason for the extreme emotion on both sides of the argument. We are a passionate crowd. And I believe that one reason that many of us are here is to learn. I want to know why there is a problem and how to solve it.
bobschacht @ 75
There survival had depended upon the natives beneficence, unlike their kin’s treatment of our native Hawaiians…!!! 8-(
Jane’s post is appalling on so many levels. You have talk radio spouting whatever and VoteVets being prevented for buying ad time on Clear Channel, you have Desmond Tutu being prevented from speaking but Dobson is revered. We are really in a dangerous situation in our country where certain speech is no longer free. It has nothing to do with whether or not you are Jewish.
According to the St Paul Pioneer Press, there are a couple of new wrinkles.
So the new wrinkles:
1) Tutu’s still coming to the Twin cities, and
2) In the eyes of the UST president, Tutu is apparently a more outrageous speaker than Ann Coulter.
Steve-AR @ 77
No Biggie.
Just some folks gettin’ personal about stuff.
We’ve been here before.
Just stay….
I made comfort food for dinner. Macaroni and cheese, from scratch.
oddmommy @ 68
well, i missed a bunch of the last thread (got side tracked by the cat brush conversation)…. so if my reply was out of line, i regret that. but it was hard to tell, just from reading it, that your comment was aimed at one person and not a general compaint.
demi @ 86
Ooh, sounds scrumptious…!!! ;-)
SanderO @ 23
If you sincerely believe that, why are you here?
CTuttle @ 86
Sounds good! How do you make it from scratch?
BigMitch #59,
What a load of horse hockey. You try to equate being liberal with being pro-Israel. You say you can be critical of Israel but you never are, and those who presume to be you tar as anti-semites. You blatantly ignore that Israeli Arabs are treated as second class citizens. You refuse to look at Israel’s 40 years long mistreatment of Palestinians in the Territories. Apartheid means separation in Afrikaans. Its essence is disenfranchisement of people in their own land, and a policy of separation between a population of masters and those they rule. Sounds like Israeli policy to me, but then I try to apply my principles to all. I don’t have one set of rules for everyone, except Israel. You might want to try it sometime.
et tu, TuTu?
burnspbesq @ 88
to help me see through the kabuki!
if we can find a way to make sure the kabuki doesn’t fool anyone, maybe they will decide to give us some real action instead of the pretend crap we’ve been getting.
One tactic I find particularly hateful is the cutting off of people’s water supply. Isra*l does it to Palestinians and the US does it to Iraqis. Its a rotten thing to do.
marymccurnin @ 81
well, if you figure it out… please let us all know. we could use some good solutions.
You’re on your way to be with the people in Tahlequah tonight. May I tip toe through your dreams this evening? I know you will see this later. Call me. I’ll be at the Aunties. See you tomorrow night.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…..mp;search=
kiddo
marymccurnin @ 83
To me, as a gentile, it’s sad to watch a nation of people associated with so much tradition, humility, and goodness, and to question authority, be associated with the establishment now, especially with the Bushies establishment. Many neo-cons, Kristol, Libby, Wolfowitz, Feith, Perle, Abrams, and not to forget papa neo-con, Strauss are of course Jewish. It just feels to me that the people that have always fought the good fight, as Mitch so eloquently noted above, are now associated with fighting the not-so-good fight.
CTuttle @ 87
LS @ 90
Medium Shells.
Shredded Cheddar.
Cubed Skim Mexican Cheese. (Like Feta, but cheaper and less tangy.)
Butter.
Bake
Why does the Administration hate the troops?
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/…..education/
JPL @ 83
Um-hmm. That’s why I thought she posted it. And I couldn’t agree more about the outrage. I only hope this level of craziness is a last gasp.
Thanks to all for your comments. I am sorry I was gone for a bit – alerting some of colleagues to this post and thread. Yes – it is a private Catholic college – but it is a Liberal Arts college that supposedly invites open dialogue. I will refrain from saying any more, but if you want to send comments, i suggest you send them to dtlandry@stthomas.edu David Landry who is our brave progressive faculty leader. He can decide whether and who to share your messages with.
Thanks again,
Kathie
1,616 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen oddmommy and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
“I have this to say about all you pious, self righteous, judgers of Israel…ALL OF US except for OKK and Lahoma are here because of a certain 16th century Mayflower style “zionism” of our very own, more brutal than anything Israel ever did…So STFU about Israel.”
Holy shit, I couldn’t a wished for a better example of the complete bankruptcy of the arguments for Israeli fascism than what you jest dumped on this community. Good God, woman, because of the genocide of the Native Americans no one can speak the truth about the Israeli genocide of the Palestinians??!! That’s exactly the fascist smear of anyone who challenges fascist terrorism: “you can’t say anything, you’re guilty of worse.”
And yes, we Americans ken spot racism, genocide and apartheid a mile away, after all it’s in our gene pool so you are left to tell me and those who oppose fascist terror to simply “STFU”…well, deary, I ain’t gunna be intimidated by ANYone who tells me to “STFU” and I ain’t gunna stop callin a spade a shovel or genocide genocide no matter who does it.
So what are ya gunna do about it??!! Are ya gunna have me arrested, hauled off to Guantanamo, call my employer anonymously in the middle of the night and accuse me of sedition or anti-semitism? That’s what you are left with and the rancid smell of your reasoning hangs like a toxic cloud over the legitimate interests of Israel and undermines the efforts of those of us who have been fightin’ fascism and REAL anti-semitism for decades.
So don’t you EVER tell ANYone here to “STFU about Israel” or anything else for that matter. If you don’t see the legitimate correlations of Israel’s organized and unrelenting genocide of the Palestinians since 1948 and the “livingspace” policies of genocide perpetrated by the Nazis on a lot more’n 6million folks, then that area above yer eyebrows is nuthin but wasted space.
KEEP THE FAITH AND IF YA FUCK WITH THE BULL YOU’LL GET THE HORNS!!
Oh… so what.
AP – Senate and House Democrats demanded Thursday to see two secret memos that reportedly authorize painful interrogation tactics against terror suspects — despite the Bush administration’s insistence that it has not violated U.S. anti-torture laws.
Blub @ 62
Sory to disagree but I think this is equivalent to say.. excluding an African American from membership in a country club would not be discrimination. Baring one from speaking because of what they might say is censorship, private censorship in this case, but censorship nonetheless.
LS @ 99
they also hate children, Americans, the Constitution, and America… and that list’s probably only a teaser
Oklahoma kiddo @ 103
Thank you!!
Actually, Tutu has been an activist in a campaign for “divestment,” that is, a boycott of investments in Israel.
As I tried to point out earlier, the situation between Tutu and Israel is very complicated. To its shame, Israel was cozy with the former regime in South Africa. I leave it to others to judge whether they were justified, or pushed into that position by the existential threat they faced mostly alone on the world stage.
Tutu’s dismissive statements about the Holocaust (essentially: can’t we just forgive and forget) are pretty offensive to Holocaust survivors, and ignores one of the raisons d’etre of the modern state of Israel.
Tutu was appointed to head a U.N. commission to investigate Haditha, where Israel mistakenly killed some civilians who had the misfortune of being where Katisha rockets were being fired into Israel. He announced his findings before going to the mid-East, which, shall we say, called into question his impartiality. (He certainly didn’t meet Selise’s standards for knowing what he was talking about, did he?)
Here’s some late-breaking news: There is no Palistinian state. The people who live in the Israeli administered territories certainly deserve a state, but their leaders seem hell-bent on denyinng it to them. The leaders have never acknowledged the right of Israel to exist. They have waged war using conventional weapons and suicide bombers. As a result it is necessary to build a wall to protect Israel.
Arabs in Israel can vote, get free education, women have equal rights, religious freedom is not only guarenteed, but non-Jewish religious institutions are protected. Israel is a democracy.
Israel is a very reliable friend to the United States in the area where they produce oil. If you think Israel controls the U.S., you are nuts. So much the more so if you think that the pro-Israel lobby does. One thing Jews understand perfectly, and the reason for the establishment of the modern State of Israel is that when it is no longer in American interests to protect Israel, it will throw her under the bus faster than you can shake a lulav. Ask the Taiwanese.
Tutu did accuse the “Jewish lobby” of undue influence, though in later printed editions of his speech he corrected it to “pro-Israeli” lobby. This is a mistake that doesn’t amount to much: a slip of tongue. (Paging Dr. Freud…)
Notwithstanding this, the effort to portray the Jewish community, or even the pro-Israel community as an all-powerful behind the scenes manipulator of events is redolent of old anti-Semitic smears in which a cabal of Jews are said to control the media, the banks, the currency exchanges, etc.
Fuck, another home run for the fucking Indians.
Do not fall for the bait.
marymccurnin @ 81
Honestly, it was beyond tiresome months ago for me. I would like thank the person(s) who constantly (literally) inject their religion and own self-interests into every thread. I’m getting alot more done at work and around the house now, instead of having healthy debates and getting informed about the politcal issues of the day, like what used to happen here much more in the comments. The frontpagers still keep this my main place for news anywhere.
I never seem to see discussion on what I feel could solve a lot of the world’s problems – Atheism. Isn’t religion, any religion just a choice? I was raised in a certain church…did all the routines…and when out on my own, decided for myself that it was all ludicrous. I don’t call myself a Catholic even though I was raised with those traditions. Sounds contradictory I know, but embracing Atheism allows you to start a truly fantastic spiritual journey, and get in touch with the internal moral compass you’re born with.
I know there are some actively religious people here, and I don’t mean any disrespect. I’ve seen some incredibly positive things come out of church initiatives, but also from secular people as well. I’m just truly interested in why people choose one religion over the others, or none at all.
I heard the other day that the Freedom From Religion Foundation is doing fantastically well right now. They even have a big conference happening this month http://ffrf.org/events. I wish they’d get more play in the media, both the old and new.
Hugh @ 90
Hugh, the palistineans had elections and voted in a government. The elections were controlled by Palistinians. The winners were terrorists whose official position is the destruction of Israel. Obviously, Israel didn’t control the outcome. Who have I ever called an anti-Semite? **************
MODzilla: Edited this time. Do it again and we will have to spam entire comments. Thanks
i don’t either.
in fact, i don’t acknowledge that nations – any nation – has rights.
people have rights.
Religion is the opium of the masses.
ccmask @ 114
And the hammer of the elite.
BigMitch @ 110
i know of no definition of terrorism that does not also include the actions of israel. and the usa.
so, i don’t think calling hamas a terrorist organization is all that helpful.
FYI – He spoke at the Brandeis commencement in 2000. Not a great crowd for an anti-semite – but considering that he isn’t one, he was a hit! He has done lectures etc at Brandeis since.
Bonkers and Mary — In this particular case, there was a discussion, initiated by ET on the previous post about Desmond Tutu. I laid off for as long as I could.
Then Jane made it into a post, and here we are. You cannot discuss the decision of the MN Catholic school to not extend an invitation to Tu Tu (2 cubed?) without discussing his various positions on Israel.
Why does it evoke passion? Perhaps that is best left for another time. (When the Yankees are winning, would be nicer.) Enough to say, that passion is good, if it doesn’t lead to dishonesty or rudeness.
LS @ 41
Yep. He’s probably sanitized the pesky RNC e-mail situation and moved on to something forward looking..
1,616 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizens ccmask and Get Tough:
“Religion is the opium (opiate) of the masses…and the hammer of the elite.”
And the lightening rod for war.
KEEP THE FAITH, THERE ARE A LOT A FOLKS THAT WANNA TAKE IT FROM YA!!
selise @ 116
Agreed. Terrorist is thrown around too much.
ccmask @ 112
for some people.
for others it seems to give them strenght to be the best they can be.
for others it becomes an excuse for evil.
…. maybe it depends on the person more than the religion?
(Blog by. It’s a whole series: this is Opus 2, 2007, pixel on LCD. Aren’t you lucky. Feel free to improve (as if you could) or use, but if you do there better be a hat tip!)*
http://farm2.static.flickr.com…..c15c_o.jpg
_______________________________________
And no, don’t get used to it.
Evil Parallel Universe @ 121
707!
nana @ 115
Not only did he speak there, but he received a civil rights award at the Law School associated with Yeshiva University (Cardozo).
The case against Tutu is not cut and dried. No doubt about it. But it is not trivial either. On balance, I acquit him of being an anti-Semite, but I also understand that he has been exposed to the worst elements of Israel.
Get Tough @ 113
That too.
I have an idea. Let’s omit the terms: Hitler, Nazi and anti-Semitic. It seems the words conjure up charges for people all with valid experiences. Let’s see where this conversation goes.
ccmask @ 112
Religion and Sports.
Here come the NY Yankees. Go Giambi
BigMitch @ 107
I’d say “very complicated” is an understatement. Your comments about shame imply that the relationship was wrong, but perhaps justifiable nonetheless — though this you leave to others to judge.
Would it be out of line to say that the relationship between Israel and the United States is similarly “very complicated,” with episodes that are likewise shameful but perhaps justifiable — and similarly leave the judging to the side, or at least recognize that people of good will can come to a different conclusions?
QuakerGirl @ 125
Why not throw apartheid on that list?
BigMitch @ 127
Turn this crap off and put on the Cubbies!
Jane,
You know how to grip the heart and soul of the reader.
Every dark cloud…
I never give up.
QuakerGirl @ 125
And replacement for Israel or Israeli when we mean neo-Israeli or some such.
QuakerGirl @ 125
Anymore I have to carry a dictionary just to remind me of the meaning of these words since they are used so loosely.
I guess Tutu got the hammer of the elite.
OT – ambassador joe wilson has a guest post up at talkleft in support of hilary clinton. anyone want to give it a read and leave a comment? i’m thinking there maybe one or two of you. *g*
I have to go. Please don’t anyone tell me how the Yankee game turns out. I want to watch it later.
Eureka Springs @ 132
Do we get to keep facist?
BigMitch @ 129
because i don’t think “apartheid” belongs on the list. do you? and if so why?
BigMitch @ 129
And terrorist. We call anyone we disagree with a terrorist. If we omit the words that have the greatest charge for most everyone, this can be a different discussion.
Okay, I am back.
raven @ 137
bwahhhh
Evil Parallel Universe @ 122
;-)
It just begs for nasty interpretations, doesn’t it?
NorskeFlamethrower @ 103
QuakerGirl @ 139
i think genocide should be on the list too.
raven @ 137
Unfortunately, since we can’t seem to shake ‘em. Seriously though, I am relatively new to this subject and find the sweeping use of Israel/Israeli to describe everyone as an A*P*C hugger etc.. not so helpful.
We all know what the charge words are. Those are the ones to omit. Why? Because they are used to shut the other person up, make them wrong and create conflict. Without charge words, I get to listen to the other person.
selise @ 138
Apartheid is a word which evokes the image of a Afrikaaner, openly rascist regime which had two standards of rights for citizens of the country. It was universally condemned in the civilized world, although in our own country, the anti-Apartheid slogan — one man, one vote — doesn’t find expression in the U.S. Senate.
More directly to the point, it is legal and right that a nation should have borders and protect them. This requires separation. To compare this to the apartheid regime in South Africa is simply put, too loaded.
selise @ 144
Foulmouthed feminazi?
QuakerGirl @ 141
Very true. Without looking at the Geneva Conventions or the UN definition. Terrorists are those who commit crimes against innocent civilians for their respective causes. Bombing airliners, bombing restaurants, bombing federal buildings, with no regard as to whether their respective enemies soldiers are present.
Christianity became a valuable tool for the enterprising Emperor Constantine. He got the Catholic hierarchy to help him govern an overexpanded empire. And he created a life’s purpose for wayward souls – war in the name of God.
Like the Vikings, who believed they would go to Valhalla for certain if they died in battle, so too did (still do) Christians believe they would ascend to heaven (should they die in battle).
Atheists have a great deal of respect for this life. That includes the lives of others. If there is no afterlife, then that makes this life all the more valuable and worthy of respect.
NorskeFlamethrower @ 103
and again…whose land are YOU living on, Norske?
BigMitch @ 59
Mitch, thanks for sharing this. I can’t resist a few comments, of course.
I agree with this, and its one reason why, on so many levels, I like to have Jewish friends, and miss it when I don’t.
I’ve felt this, too, so usually I avoid talking about Israel with my Jewish friends. It puts them in an awkward position, and I don’t want to do that. So thanks for being my lightning rod, Mitch! :-)
Here’s where the message starts getting garbled. Communication has been cut off, because any honest discussion– like we’re having here– gets aborted by the snarling lions of That Organization Which Must Not Be Named, because as soon as One Word of disagreement passes from our lips, the vengeful cry of ant*-sem*t*sm! is hurled, and then there can be no more discussion. Why is it that the citizens of Israel can have a more frank discussion about these things than we can?
This kind of thing stifles the debate and cuts it off before it can begin. Sabeel is an organization of Christian Palestinians– not the evangelical converts of recent years, but the historical Christians of Palestine who have been getting it in the neck from both sides for decades. Does that word “crucifying” offend you? Well, I got news for you. Ever since I visited Israel and Occupied Jordan in 1967, I have heard inflammatory diatribes from both sides that made my hair stand on end. I agree– de-escalating the language– on both sides– would help, and I regret the use of the word “crucify” in this instance, assuming that it is quoted correctly. But don’t defame a whole people because of one word uttered by one person.
Distortions and half-truths, mostly dealt with quite well in Carter’s book. So, I’ve got a proposition for the author of this piece: OK, so if there’s no racism involved, and Arabs are all hunky-dory with Israelis, lets just allow ALL Arabs– Palestinians as well as Israeli citizens– to vote. Let them all become citizens of Israel! But you know Israel would never let that happen, because if it did, Israelis would lose control of the electorate. There are just too many Palestinians. Voting Arabs are fine, just so long as there aren’t too many of them. No racism? My foot.
“…because their leaders are at war with Israel”? Poppycock. True of Hamas in Gaza, but not of the PLO in the “West Bank”.
The problem on both sides is over-generalization, and this is a good example.
There’s an important discussion that needs to be held around this point, and we need to be able to have it without STFU discussion stoppers like “ant*-sem*t*!!!” being hurled around at the drop of a hat.
This is needlessly inflammatory. If Jews want to protest, fine. But I hope for real dialogue, and not just STFU messages. And I don’t like the wedge issue insistance in the closing sentence. I’d rather build bridges than fences and walls.
Bob in HI
BigMitch,
“Here’s some late-breaking news: There is no Palistinian state.”
I am respectfully asking wasn’t there some kind of state before Israel? And didn’t the Palestinian people live in it? And weren’t they moved off of their land? Isn’t sixty years a rather short period of time to expect that group of people to be accepting of the loss of their homes and community?
oddmommy @ 151
he get’s that and I get fuck off, good night and good luck
raven @ 148
i wear that label with pride!
BigMitch @ 110
Well it is good for you to tell me what I am. You use the term sabeel-ite. How is this different from anti-s*mite? And you go on to tar Tutu with sabeel-ite connections.
Israel is not under any existential threat and hasn’t been for most of its history or haven’t you noticed the 200-300 nuclaer weapons Israel possesses? You blame the victims and let Israel off with a pass. Hamas could threaten the moon as effectively as it threatens Israel. And you wriggle like an eel trying to say that Israeli Arabs have all of these supposed rights but even you can’t get it out that they have the same rights and are treated the same way as Jewish Israelis. You could have used the same argument to maintain that African Americans should have been content with Jim Crow because even under Jim Crow they were better off than in Africa. You seem like an intelligent person. I don’t see why you have these difficulties in accepting what most of the rest of the world has known for decades that the Israelis are colonialists and that democracy extends only to certain Israelis not all.
There seems to be confusion about the propaganda and policies of governments and the will of the peoples of the earth. Not good. All “beings” are fruits of the earth. Populations want a life free of violence and war. That is our nature. Greedy beings covet power. Governments want territory and power. Populations are defined by their “governments”. It is all a mystery, and we’ll never know why we are here, who we are, and why we are experiencing it. Or, will we?
This argument is about as effective as Clinton did it too….
marymccurnin @ 155
The Palestianians backed the wrong horse in WWII. I am for the two-state approach there, BTW.
Get Tough @ 149
And dropping smart bombs, for that matter. Collateral damage decapitates and dismembers innocent civilians.
Tonite, all my critters ate out, I had pinacbet, any Pups know what I had…!!! *g*
bobschact@152
“Why is it that the citizens of Israel can have a more frank discussion about these things than we can?”
I suspect it’s much the same as that other inflammatory word….y’know, the one that starts with “n”?
If you is one, you can say it and talk about it. If you ain’t, shut up, cracker.
I don’t mean to offend anyone by using the c-word above, it’s just for effect. Honest.
CTuttle @ 162
Chile!!!!!!!!!!!!
raven @ 155
YOU told ME to log off, dude. Them’s fightin words.
Negroponte for dessert?
LS @ 165
Filipino, is a hint…!!!
Evil Parallel Universe @ 121
You know, what a fucked up way to give a link. Personally, I won’t be using EPU anymore. How condescending and rude. I don’t want to “get used to it”.
marymccurnin @ 153
Yes there was a state. It was called Palistine. The British colonialists had a mandate from the League of Nations to administer it. The United Nations voted to partition it and create a Jewish state and an Palistinian state. 80% of it was renamed, Trans Jordan. Transjordan, changed its name to Jordan and relinquished any claim to the West Bank. The area known as Gaza was part of Egypt, which has also relinquished any claim to it.
The official position of Israel, and the position of the overwhelming majority of Israelis is that there should be a Palistinian state (another, since Jordan is 90% Palistinian and 10% Hashimite) located on Gaza and the West Bank. Israel should have secure borders as guaranteed by UN resolution 242 and 343. However, before this can happen, the Palestinians have to establish a government that is willing to live in peace with Israel. So far, they have only been able to get behind outright crooks like Arafat and the Hamas leadership now. These people approve of the use of terror to accomplish political goals. Call them what you will.
oddmommy @ 152
and how did Great Grandpa Norske get it? Huh???
selise @ 135
Hello!
CTuttle @ 167
Goodness, I thought you were referring to this!!!!!:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/t…..592173.ece
Loo Hoo. @ 171
Some good comments are up already. More are needed.
oddmommy @ 172
We get it.
Eureka Springs @ 159
I beg to differ.
Well, here it goes again…yawn.
In honor of this thread, here’s a quarter in the musicmaker for the great Glasgow band, Del Amitri
“Nothing Ever Happens”
“The needle returns to the start of the song and we all sing along like before…”
oddmommy @ 28
Sorry, but your history sucks. The Mayflower people were a minority. The other (probably 80%) came for entirely commercial reasons. And for quite awhile, the Mayflower people got along a lot better with the natives than the commercial colonists.
It was a “city on the hill” settlement that pretty well pioneered pulling dirty tricks on the natives, but they were in Conn., and they weren’t Puritans. And they did it mostly because they weren’t as well armed as the commercial settlements. (Shootin’ people in a far-up fight ain’t durty, even if the other side don know the rools.)
oddmommy @ 170
Just as a matter of information, oddmommy, whose land are YOU living on, and how did you or your antecedents acquire it?
Yes BM, you’re right: “There is no Palistinian (sic) state.” Kernel of the problem.
Oddmommy, some of us are NOT going to STFU just because you like to wield the authoritarian schtik. As Selise pointed out, past genocides do not justify current ones nor inaction to prevent them. The Nazi holocaust affected many peoples, not just Jews.
As for the existential threat to Israel, most of that threat is created by Israel itself. Hamas had signalled a willingness to acknowledge Israel within 1967 borders but that is too inconvenient while dead Palestinian civilians “had the misfortune of being…” in the wrong places in their own land that Israel has no right to be in.
Evil Parallel Universe @ 121
EPU, that’s classic! Excellent! And why don’t we hear more from you anymore?
LS @ 173
Justice is finally being served…!!! *g*
BigMitch @ 169
agreed, this would be helpful (although not necessary).
it would also be helpful if the israelis would establish a governmetn willing to live in peace with palestinians.
as for the use of terror to accomplish political goals… don’t forget the the irgun, the stern gang and state terrorism. call them what you will.
Loo Hoo. @ 169
i agree
Valley Girl @ 178
Good question!
Okay Sona, your post indicates a belief on your part that Israel has no right to exist. That should disqualify you from any further discussion.
CTuttle @ 181
Mr. LS was just laughing at the description of the Pinochet “children” in their forties….rolls eyes….
BigMitch @ 185
why?
Where is Suzanne when we need her?
selise @ 182
I call them freedom fighters. England called them terrorists, and this is because they struck at English military targets. Sorry, striking at military targets is not quite the same as striking the WTC.
BigMitch @ 185
I didn’t read it that way at all, fwiw.
I find it increasingly disturbing that the “pro-Israel” lobby shows up in large numbers to silence people with whom they disagree. Witness the extreme pressure brought to bear on Columbia with Ahmadinejad and now across the country at St. Thomas with Tutu. It’s clearly organized.
It seems pretty clear with the wall carving up the west bank, the systematic destruction of Palestinian economies (razing of orchards…) that the state of Israel is subjecting the Palestinians to apartheid. Palestinian leadership hasn’t been anything to write home about either; this is undeniable (tell me again about how Ariel Sharon and Begin weren’t terrorists before the establishment of the Israeli state). But the Palestinians also have no power to do anything but lash out. Israel has alternatives.
Explain this to me:
Why should Jews from Brooklyn be supported in their effort to establish communities in the West Bank and displacing Palestinians living there now?
Why should Palestinians be forced to bear the brunt of the right of return?
In response to Oddmommy. True that the Indigenous people of the Americas were slaughtered and their land taken. Reservations in the US are consistently the poorest communities in the states. It’s a mess.
Unfortunately, the Palestinian/Israelis situation is happening now; creating a new conflict and ensuing suffering that will echo through the centuries.
Why should we support this to the tune of over a billion a year? And sabre rattling against states deemed enemies of Israel? And invasions of same?
BigMitch @ 185
Who died and left you in charge?
selise @ 187
I think that saying a nation of 8 million has no right to exist is beyond the bounds of intelligent debate.
I.e. they should what they are told. Somehow in these discussions it gets left out that Menachem Begin was in the Irgun a terrorist organization that believed in using terror to accomplish political goals. Ariel Sharon allowed the massacre of Palestinians in Lebanon and shelled Beirut into rubble. But these are facts and so not in BigMitch’s view of Israel. Israel is always right. Israel is always threatened. The Palestinians are always wrong. Very simple, very neat. Facts need not apply. Principles generally accepted elsewhere suddenly have not business here. Words and concepts must be twisted and tortured beyond all recognition but because it is in the defense of Israel it is for a good cause.
oddmommy @ 183
I don’t get how this is condescending and rude? This is the new logo for the MN convention in 08 – do you think this is directed at you? My, we are important…
I want late nite right now!!!!!! waaaaaaaa…. hiccup…..
BigMitch @ 187
I read David Remnick advocate restricting borders to pre-1967, too, Mitch. It would solve alot of the turmoil over there, and in no way does taking that position mean one advocates the destruction of Israel.
BigMitch @ 189
please explain how the massacre at the village of Deir Yassin was a military target.
Friends, I must leave.
I am sorry I didn’t get a chance to answer all your objections.
GordonM @ 178
well, ok Dr History Scholar. Maybe not the Mayflower folks. I stand corrected, pending further verification.
But somebody’s ancestors killed, purged, and otherwise evicted the Native American equivalent of the Palestinians into the squalor, alcoholism and desparation many of them live in today. Does my history “suck” on that point too?
in reply to:
Eureka Springs @ 104
I guess I just don’t see this as a parallel scenario. The theory of the discriminatory country club relies on civil rights and anti-discrimination protections that our society, through its courts, have given to certain classes who have historically suffered from discrimination: women, minorities, the disabled, etc. Sometimes we legitimately take issue when we feel that these classes are too narrowly defined – few of us here would disagree that this type of protection should be extended to gays, even if the courts are not yet ready to do so as fully as we would like.
But this is a case where a sectarian private institution doesn’t want a sectarian official from another denomination to speak on their premises, on policy grounds and because their leaders disagree with what that person might say. I find their conduct personally despicable, not least because Bishop Tutu is one of my denomination’s bishops and I respect him in that role and I certainly don’t appreciate the Catholics telling me that they’re too good to treat him with the respect he deserves, but I also don’t think their ban rises to any realistic standard of discrimination.
If we were to make such an argument, then we must expect Oral Roberts U or Regents U to invite pro-choice advocates to speak, and, heck, as a member of my local Democratic club, somebody might see fit to inflict (gasp!) rethug guest speakers on us… Coultergeist could demand the right to attend our meetings, if only she could only infiltrate a member into the group to invite her to come in the first place
marymccurnin @ 185
uh…..I’m not the one passing judgment on Israel…?
marymccurnin @ 192
Whoa Nellie!! What is this ridiculous accusation that someone here thinks that Israel has no right to exist???
Stop taking the bait!!!! Hellooooo…with what you know “is going on”…stop buying into this stupid argument. Do not go there!
BigMitch @ 193
i disagree… as i wrote above, i don’t think nations have rights.
but those 8 million people sure as hell do.
1,616 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen oddmommy:
“and again, whose land are you livin on Norske?”
And again,what the fuck does that have ta do with the fact that Israel is and has been for 58 years committing genocide on the Palestinians?
Yer late ta the dance, honey, I grew up in a socialist household in northern Minnesota and was weaned on the genocide of the Native Peoples…I knew and understood the terrible history of slavery and it’s deadly effects on any hope of growing true democracy in this country. My immigrant Grandfather got a Purple Heart fightin’ the Germans in WWI and my father lost a leg and received the Silver and Bronze Stars for valor in WWII fightin’ the Germans again. I grew up with the depression and the wars against fascism as part of my living history and as a Unitarian learned to identify bigotry and racism, especially anti-semitism very early.
So again, show me whatcha got, girl…why do I not have the right to call out Israeli fascism and genocide on the Palestinians…because somehow the legacy of Native American genocide makes it OK for Israel to do the same to Palestinians? Good God, that argument completely obscures the legitimate concerns of Israel for it’s existence and makes the accusation of “anti-semitism” completely meaningless. That’s the danger that you and people like you pose to Israel, you have completely mutilated the meaning of Israel and the IDEA of Israel that was so precious to that great generation that made Israel possible.
So, if that’s all ya got then ya better go back ta bed and turn the electric blanket up ta 9.
KEEP THE FAITH AND DON’T TRY THAT SHIT ON ME!!
oddmommy @ 200
Just as a matter of information, oddmommy, whose land are YOU living on, and how did you or your antecedents acquire it?
BigMitch @ 199
gotta say, while i disagree with the majority of what you write…. i really admire your willingness to engage on the topic. thank you.
You know, this is really simple, and maybe I should have put it this way to begin with.
Shorter STFU: Judge not, lest ye be judged.
Peace.
oddmommy @ 202
That doesn’t mean you cannot be asked the question. Whose land are you living on? Or are you renting from Native American?
Ward Churchill asserts in his book A Little Matter of Genocide that the Holocaust Museum successfully excluded millions of Romanians, gypsies, Polish and other groups as bona fide victims of the holocaust.
oddmommy @ 207
Yep. Really does cover it all.
As for the pseudo-argument of everyone moving back from where they came. It is a simplistic and wrongheaded view of history. Do Americans of English extraction go back to England or do they go back to Germany from where the Angles came or do they go back to Central Asia from where the Indo-Europeans came from and do all of us go back eventually to Africa from where we all started? The simple fact is we can not change what happens back in the 19th century and before but we can do something about the mistreatment of people now and the injustice that has been visited upon them.
kind of an interesting question “Who first stole that land that you now live on- and who stole it most recently?”
In my case- I guess the native americans stole it from one another through many centuries– then the spanish stole it- then the US stole it from Spain- although private ownership rights of land were supposedly observed- then there were many phony lawsuits in which lawyers managed to separate settlers from their land—eventually we get to a period where we can actually trace legal ownership..
NO ONE that I know of, lives on land that wasn’t stolen from SOMEONE SOMETIME in history…
the fuckwit deciderer in chief has slaughtered more brown babies today. the western whites are slaughtering the poor eastern browns, but, I hope the western whites get their fuckin asses kicked in the playoffs!
the Bush clan must be very proud of its little fucktwit!
OT but important re blackwater:
Bob Filner (D-CA) will be speaking to a protest ralley at the proposed Blackwater base site in Potrero CA:
Protest via hike planned at Blackwater facility site
EAST COUNTY: Opponents of Blackwater USA’s proposed training camp in Potrero are planning a rally this weekend.
Blackwater’s plans for a training facility for law enforcement and the military are opposed by people who say the project doesn’t fit in the rural community, and those upset about the company’s role as a military contractor in Iraq.
The Sierra Club is leading a hike of the Hauser wilderness area, near the 824-acre facility site, Saturday at 9 a.m., followed by project workshops and displays. Participants plan to camp Saturday night at Potrero Regional Park.
Sunday, speakers including Rep. Bob Filner, D-San Diego, will address the crowd, beginning at 1 p.m. The group then plans to march to the project site on Round Potrero Road.
The rally is sponsored by the Peace Resource Center of San Diego, the San Diego Coalition for Peace and Justice, the Citizens’ Oversight Committee, San Diego Veterans for Peace and other organizations.
For more information, contact Raymond Lutz at (619) 820-5321 or raylutz@citizensoversight.org. –
Unfortunately, I’m out of town on business that day, but if you’re in Southern California PLEASE consider going. We really need to keep Blackwater out of our state.
Ward Churchill- I thought he was of the opinion that the halocaust didn’t happen- or am I confusing him with someone else?
The preceding arguments are completely without ground. How can you argue, who’s ground you are “occupying”? At what point, in time in the history of the earth, do you define ownership of portions of the earth? It is so entirely absurd. It is beyond ridiculous. Treaties? Warranties? Oh, pllllleeeaaasseee. All of this is the problem. It is a problem of perception of reality.
LS @ 217
We have the nutshell! Thank you.
marymccurnin @ 209
It may not mean I can’t be asked the question.
It does, however, mean that you miss the point.
oh, sorry, I forgot to add a snark tag in an earlier comment.
oddmommy @ 207
which really does go both ways … I note the lack of answer to the question re where you live …
for the record, I live in Colorado, on land that was homesteaded approx 120 years ago. I don’t know who wsa doing what here before, but I’d guess that some people did spend at least some time here. My understanding is that the locals were fairly nomadic at the time.
Blub @ 216
And will someone please call Issa out about that comment about someone having to watch their back in Iraq during their Blackwater investigation, because Blackwater might not do such a good job–it’s late, I can’t remember the exact quote. But that s.o.b. basically said that he advocated Blackwater, who is looking to plop down some choice facilities in his district, to do “something about it.”
Valley Girl @ 219
707
I guess that after the people who originally stole the land are long dead- and people buy and sell it and improve it for generations- the original theft becomes codified.
oddmommy @ 200
You are absolutely right, and I’ve met very few American’s who deny it. Things get tense when people say similar things about Israel.
hackworth @ 210
I was there, and I can tell you they are not excluded.
OK.. but since I’m not really on either side of this particular debate (frankly, I don’t know what I think about the Israeli-Palestinian duel), I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that we may wish to avoid calling each other’s arguments “completely without ground” and “ridiculous”.. I can actually see both sides of the argument here, and I don’t think either set of arguments are groundless or ricidulous… if they were, this particular mess would hardly be the single most intractible foreign policy problem in modern history. Be nice :)
rwcole @ 224
Isn’t that Isreal’s plan?
rwcole @ 223
kinda like when the fence lines and official prop lines diverge — a situation that we live in. We could try to get everyone to move west 5 feet …
rwcole @ 216
He has been accused of being a holocaust denier. But he has tenure. Thus, an arguent about the tenure system.
Can we all stop this mad discourse on Israeli-Palestinian issues, there are bigger fish to fry in the here and now, FISA capitulation by Rahm and Steny, Tomorrow, this will all be moot if slack off…!!!
GordonM @ 177
Umm, I think you need to read Philbrick’s book on the Mayflower. You’n him seem to differ on the facts.
Bob in HI
A few days back, Glenn Greenwald accused the ADL of ignoring conservative reliance on Hitler and the Nazis to make their points. The ADL responded with a lengthy listing of the actions they have taken against conservatives who use anti-Hitler talk in such a flagrantly indiscriminate manner.
rwcole @ 223
Stole the land from who(m)??????
CTuttle @ 231
Agreed.
Bob in HI
selise @ 204
Exactly!
CTuttle @ 231
tomorrow?
Mommybrain @ 195
I didn’t even look at the link. It was the condescending “gawd you people are so fortunate that I am gracing you with my presence” tone that turned me off.
LS
Well that depends on which land theft you are speaking of. Mine was a more general point.
BigMitch @ 185
First, my post says Israel has no right to be in lands extending beyond its mandated 1967 borders. Do not twist what I have said – tht’s a low down con trick.
Second, since when have you become the decider on who is qualified to join discussions on this blog?
Get Tough @ 222
It turns out that investigators will be guarded by FBI rather than Blackwater, but you’re right that Issa did make that none-too-veiled threat. Also, IIRC, Potrero is not in Issa’s district.
CTuttle @ 232
Jane started it!
BigMitch @ 229
Doesn’t have tenure anymore … got fired …
bit of a problem w/ quoting himself in academic papers (except that he published the original refs under a psuedonym). Or at least, that’s what I’ve been able to gather as the underlying academic sin. As opposed to just professing unpopular political views …
rwcole @ 215
That has been a smear tactic used against him. He most assuredly recognizes the halocaust exactly as most of us do – except he resents the exclusion of the other victims. According to Churchill, the number of Poles, Chechs, Romanians, Gypsies, homosexuals of every stripe, easily exceed the 6 million Jewish people – yet, they are not recognized. He says that they have been intentionally excluded by the Jewish people.
Hugh @ 212
yeah, we “can” do that……secure in our little “historic houses” built on blood-soaked foundations.
Oh, but that was a LONG TIME ago. Surely the statute of limitations has run. Or we’re not responsible for what our foreparents did…..or something.
That’s WAY different from the little Israeli children….those occupiers, those genociders.
LS @ 217
The term “occupied” has legal significance. It referes to land that is captured in war, and which from another country, which other country seeks to reclaim. Like, Iraq, for instance. The legal definition of “occupied” does not apply to Gaza and the West Bank. This is a point that is intentionally obscured in the debate, but has a lot of significance. For instance, the Geneva Accords on occupation do not apply. If they did, Israel would be tasked with running the educational system in the disputed territories.
(strapping into mod chair wearing nomex and kelvar mod suit)
g’evening all
hack
OK.
I thought Churchill was just fired.Get Tough @ 242
Yea. This NEVER happens unless the main post is about the topic. Never ever…
Eureka Springs @ 238
1:30 ET, tomorrow, they plan to bring the FISA legislation up for debate…!!! Any further questions…??? 8-(
yeah, suzanne is here!
BigMitch @ 229
not true. he was fired in july of this year.
hackworth @ 244
He is a revisionist historian.
rwcole @ 238
If land was “owned”, how was it stolen? It was not stolen, it was “claimed”. How can you own parts of the earth. That is absurd.
Suzanne @ 246
Suzanne!
CTuttle @ 249
fuckers move fast when they wanna
oddmommy @ 244
So, if so, why exactly were you giving Norske grief about how his grandparents might have occupied the land?
CTuttle @ 250
yes!
oddmommy @ 219
No, my dear, I did not miss the point.
But right now I am, against my better judgement, going to tell you to STFU.
Suzanne’s here. I’m outta here.
Just kidding, I really have to go to celebrate a jewish holiday. Simchat Torah (Rejoicing in the Law /Teaching)
Yeah if one denies property rights- then there’s no problem I suppose.
wigwam @ 241
Yeah, exactly. Issa and Hunter want to INFLICT this facility on Filner’s district, which is a Democratic one. Filner’s district is poorer, and generally the recipient of toxic projects advocated by suburban thugs like Hunter. From an environmental justice perspecive, it’s all the more despicable. Frankly, if Issa likes Blackwater so much, he should find some piece of land owned by one of his well-heeled constituents, in his own well-heeled corner of the metropolitan area, and invite Blackwater to be neighbors with his zillion-dollar ranchettes. I’d actually be much happier with that alternative.
Suzanne @ 247
oh gawd…..thanks for finally making me laugh.
Suzanne @ 257
In the wrong direction, Ma Cheri! Where’s the purported hearings about it…???
BigMitch @ 226
A serious question, Mitch. Do you think that if the Jews had not been white the concentration camps and holocaust would be given far less attention? I say this because the Japanese had the worst concentration camps on the island of Java. Sumatra and other areas had terrible ones also but Java is reputed as having the worst.
I often felt the Japanese sent their sadist to run these camps. The torture was hideous. But it gets little attention. I can’t help but wonder if the Javanese, Indonesians, Malayans, Chinese, etc. had been white, would they have received more attention?
BigMitch @ 230
He has been fired.
Shalom, BigMitch!
BigMitch @ 259
hag sameach
wigwam @ 241
Thanks for the clarification, wigwam. My jaded view of everything Blackwater clouds my objectivity.
Loo Hoo. @ 237
That’s just his schtick. he hardly ever really means it.
Don’t you think it’s funny, in both senses of the word, that their elephant is blue? i do.
BigMitch @ 245
again you are talking about the rights of nations.
i am talking about the rights of PEOLE.
the palestinian PEOPLE’S land is occupied by a military force that is not their own.
are nations like corporations? And thus entitled to free speach rights, property ownership, etc.?
are there any collective rights? Families? Villages? Tribes? Towns? States? Countries? Planets?
Are we now all waiting for the spinning wheel or something?
oddmommy @ 245
Two wrongs do not make a right. The “where you came from” argument is pure misdirection. I am not saying we should forget history. Actually, I’m saying we should learn from it and not commit or sanction injustices now. I have no idea why you are bringing in Israeli children into this but if you do what about Palestinian children or do they not count?
Rich @ 233
I read the letter, they don’t seem to have Rush, O’Reilly, Hannity, Coulter…listed, which kind of surprised me. They seem to be regular users of that imagery.
Has ADL ever put something out on the blank-a-nazi structure they like to use? a la Femi-nazi. (nb: This is not a rhetorical question, I truly would be interested to know).
freakshow upstairs (no offense to freaks)
CTuttle @ 231
Thanks for the reminder to everyone. I called and sent e-mails today. I commented in an earlier thread about the unwillingness of the Democrats to bring Republicans along. I really don’t think it’s incompetence any more. I think it is deliberately hiding behind a weak cry of having little power. They want to give him greater power. I can make no sense of it.
I once had a reasoned opinion about the history of the state of Israel- based on serious university classes and a lot of reading. Unfortunately- I have forgotten the justification for my college opinions (so long ago- so long ago)- so I really can’t rely on them…
My current thinking is that these people have something to work out between the two and that I see no reason for the USA to get involved..which means no fuckin aid to either side.
But maybe that position is a bit austere.
marymccurnin @ 259
please don’t. i want to know what oddmommy is thinking…. even when i disagree. or maybe, especially when i disagree.
how else am i to learn?
just home from work. Whoa! I may have been the first to bring this important topic to the lake’s shore. Thanks, Jane Hamsher, for seeing the importance of this issue, like you have seen in so many others.
This is a real family feud because we are family. Not in the Judeo-Christian or progressive or the-world-is-one sense, but in a revolutionary way. I know how much the proprieters here have tried to attenuate discussion at fdl away from people yelling about Palestine and Israel, but had we kept silent about Tutu’s ban at St. Thomas once it was discovered, how credible could this place be?
Our thoughts should be on trying to resolve the I/P issues no less than on helping resolve any other important human rights set of issues.
Hats off to Jane Hamsher and Big Mitch on this!
BigMitch @ 107
My favorite ethnic joke.
Q: What do you get when you cross a [insert ethnic group here] with a wild boar?
A: A pig with the ability to bear a grudge.
Quite simply, Israel overplayed it’s hand a long time ago. Long enough ago that sympathy has been eroded. If there were any sign that the current leadership of Israel was saner than a neo-con then you might get some back.
As it is, there are lots of dissenting voices in the Israeli press. More than there are in this country. Which is what this post was about.
Desmond Tutu is evil.
he should be more like Ariel Sharon.
Suzanne @ 256
Not only do they move fast, but they are allowed to move in relative stealth. Glenn Greenwald and other have been warning of this for a couple of weeks or more but nary a mention in the mainstream media. (It was somewhat the same way with the Military Tribunals Act, except that Jeffrey R. Smith was getting daily stories into the Washington Post.)
Per Glenn Greenwald yesterday:
Ed*ard Teller @ 280
my bold.
i want to give primacy to the relationship and acknowledge that the feud is secondary.
You can look at it this way: nobody owns the land. We all “rent” it for a while, tho, and we should be nice to the neighbors while wer’e here.
Blub @ 262
My friends in the area say that there is going to be a demonstration at the Potrero site this weekend. Check http://www.activistsandiego.or…..hp?t=17835
BigMitch @ 252
Churchill says that the number of Indians killed by Spanish and Europeans in North, Central and South America numbered in the millions (IIRC 30 million). The numbers have been greatly underestimated by historians. The numbers can be estimated by war records – records of battles and in other historical accounts. It wasn’t the Dark Ages. Churchill calls the slaughter of the Indians – Genocide.
I agree.
Revisionism occurs often. Read Churchill’s A Little Matter of Genocide yourself and see if you think he is a revisionist. I don’t.
Desmond Tutu might have some ‘not too favorable’ memories of when Israel supported the racist apartheid regime in South Africa.
Valley Girl @ 257
ok, let me say this very.slowly.using.very.simple.words.
We live on land that was stolen. We live on it because our ancestors invaded, stole from, killed, and exiled, those who lived on the land first.
We don’t get a pass because that was hundreds of years ago. We proud “Americans” — ALL of us, me, you, George Bush, Norske, and anyone else who is not descended from the true Americans — are reaping the benefits of said invasion, theft, murder and exile, EVERY day.
Therefore, we do not have the RIGHT to judge the nation of Israel for
“invading” Palestine. I’m not saying they were right or wrong to do so. I’m just saying, we have no FUCKING ROOM TO TALK — unless you all do want to have some crisis of conscience, move onto a “reservation,” and give the Natives back their land. Then tell me how bad the Israelis are, and then I’ll listen.
And for the record……I’ll gladly lead the charge in moving the fuck out….somewhere, anywhere.
Got it now?
Wigwam, why didn’t you tell me who you were at the meeting last week? Dang. I had to figure it out in the de-lurking thread next day.
BigMitch @ 185
Out of idle curiousity, has another state asked any others for recognition of their “right to exist”? (Seems kind of sissy, doesn’t it?)
The existence of a state is a political reality, and nothing else. States only exist in the political realm, and obviously, Palestinians acknowledge that. On any other level of reality, states are just imaginary lines on the ground.
Imagine there are no countries.
wigwam @ 286
yep. Filner will be there Saturday morning.. that’s what my post was about in the first place, wigwam. Everybody in SoCal should go.. I’m beggin’ :)
marymccurnin @ 292
shrub’s conquered ‘em all?
marymccurnin @ 259
on what basis? That you don’t have a more intelligent response?
oddmommy @ 289
Nope.
oddmommy @ 295
How old are you? Ten.
the operatives are out in force I see.
oddmommy @ 289
i really don’t get it.
agree with everything you say about what happened to native americans. it was genocide. and native american have the right to major reparations.
but i don’t see how that means we can’t judge injustices that are happening now.
when germany invaded poland… were americans supposed to not say anything because they were living on stolen land? i don’t think so. i think we have a responsibility to acknowledge past injustices and to try to make reparations… but i think we also have a responsibility to see and speak honestly about injustices that are happening in our lifetimes… and to even take action if there is something productive we can do about it.
oddmommy @ 200
You blamed it in on “zionism” of the Mayflower folks.
You also import the same interpretation of “ownership” that the colonists did. If the natives had had the same perveted sense of what “owning” lands mean, all the colonists would have been slaughtered.
I’d guess that notion of “ownership” has a whole lot to do with the practice of slaughtering people.
But that’s just a guess.
marymccurnin @ 297
still awaiting intelligent response. 10…..9…..8…..7…….
to be a successful operative you must dominate the discussion with rude aggressive behaviour shutting down all opposition.
Valley Girl @ 296
what are your questions?
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 302
no one has done that.
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 302
who’s shutting down discussion, good lady? Tell me your response to what I’ve said. That’s what a “discussion” is.
BigMitch @ 253
Aren’t we all.
oddmommy @ 303
i had questions…
selise @ 299
I don’t disagree with you in any way, good sane selise. You’re totally right.
The difference between you and these people I am arguing with, is that you THINK. Your mind is OPEN. You consider history, implications, consequences, without knee-jerk brain-dead reactions.
Israel……baaaaaaaad. Palestinians…….gooooooood.
Baaaaa, indeed. Orwell, anyone?
Anyway, I hope you understand what I mean. I can probaby explain it better sometime when I haven’t been hitting my head on a stone wall for the last 2 hours.
The difference between you and these people I am arguing with, is that you THINK. Your mind is OPEN. You consider history, implications, consequences, without knee-jerk brain-dead reactions.
oddmommy @ 308
Oddmommy – you can’t take the blame for what your great…great grandparents did. You can understand that “oppressors” aren’t necessarily evil through and through, and you can help oppressed people. That’s about it.
You see oddmommy knows the real truth:
Israel……gooooooood.
Palestinians……baaaaaaaad.
Israel is sacrosanct because Israel is sacrosanct.
There is no reasoning with this.
Mommybrain @ 290
Oops! It takes me a while to relax.
oddmommy @ 308
fair enough. i confess, i just had to go take a couple of advil *g*.
thanks for the kinds words, but i’m sure i will fail to live up to them… again, i invite you to call me out whenever you think i’m stepping over the line.
and thank you for the effort it takes to continue these conversations (i’m guessing they take a toll on you). take care… (advil good *g*)
Hugh @ 311
that is not what I said at all…..and I suspect you know it.
Disappointed. I actually didn’t figure you for a sheep.
http://arts.guardian.co.uk/pic…..31,00.html
‘Banksys’ art on the wall imprisoning the Palestinians is quite interesting. ‘Provocative without being polemical’ is one description I read.
Hugh @ 311
hugh, i don’t think that’s fair. you see me write about all kinds of bad things some israelis have done. and considering that i’ve had my life threatened (once by settlers and once by the idf) i take it kinda personally.
i don’t agree (i think) of some of what oddmommy was writing tonight, but she is certainly willing to reason together with us. i hope you will give it time… it’s hard when we’re talking past eachother. room for lots of misunderstanding.
Don’t be obtuse. I have no idea whether Bishop Tutu has compared Israel to Hitler or the Nazis. However, using those kinds of terms to describe Israel simply isn’t the same as using such terms to describe random other groups or people (by which I don’t mean to imply that it isn’t offensive to some). A rough analogy would be the difference between calling a random political group the KKK or like slave traders, vs. calling the NAACP or some other group of or individual African-Americans the same.
oddmommy @ 314
hugh is not sheep. please hang in there (not suggesting you shouldn’t take time to recharge and regroup) and i think you will see it too.
like i said to hugh… lots of talking past eachother makes for lots of misunderstanding.
Bishop Tutu probably has very strong memories of when Israel supported the apartheid regime.
like cheney.
same happy story.
oddmommy @ 314
No, that is exactly what you said. I have nothing intrinsically for or against Israel but when I see fake arguments and legalistic definitions used to defend the indefensible in this one particular case called Israel, I just don’t buy it.
selise @ 313
good heavens dear lady….are YOU on FB? or would you e-mail me sometime at oddmommy at cox dot net? I am not (as my good mr oddmommy would say) just “flapping my gums” here……I really do value your conversation for the reasons I have said.
Hope your head feels better.
selise @ 316
“that is not what I said at all…..and I suspect you know it.
Disappointed. I actually didn’t figure you for a sheep. “
I don’t feel that this is reasoning. Just any easy, flippant come back.
Hugh @ 320
NO IT IS NOT WHAT I SAID. GO BACK AND READ IT. And if you still don’t get it, go take Logic 101. Or better yet, Remedial Reading.
marymccurnin @ 322
all of us do that at times. doesn’t mean that’s always the case.
marymccurnin @ 322
yeah, and I’m still waiting for your reasoned, non-flippant comeback.
oddmommy @ 321 –
ygm.
oddmommy @ 323
As I said, no reasoning with this. If we read you, we must agree with you. QED I did read you and I saw a major attempt to use an “Everyone does it” argument to excuse Israel’s human rights abuses. And no, I do not agree.
you-all outlasted me…
gotta sleep now…. later friends.
israel and cheney vs. nelson mandela
Ladies and Gentlemen – night after night, we fight this 2000 year old conflict out on these pages and we ding and dent each other.
Please leave the field and come on up to Late Nite, join us in pounding Debra Cagan, and keep yourselves and each other safe and sane.
the tunnel of Babel…
newtonusr @ 330
I think it’s great that people are finally discussing this topic, which used to simply be taboo. It’s factor in many aspects of U.S. foreign policy and lately even in some matters of domestic policy. We really must discuss it.
But enough for now. I’m going upstairs.
Hugh @ 327
ok, I’m gonna try this one more time, only because I once thought you were an intelligent man:
I did not say that Israel is always right. I do not believe that Israel is always right. It is right and proper to criticize what Israel does IN THE SAME WAY we would another country that is our ally.
I thought the W……er (don’t remember his name)co-author of “The Israel Lobby” had good points when I heard him on Colbert last night. I didn’t read the book, but it certainly made sense when he said the Israel lobby is like the NRA or any other powerful interest in this country …..no more no less.
The thing that upsets me on this good FDL site is that so many people who I have daily come to regard as intelligent, fair, thoughtful people whose values I share are so ready to jump on this A*I*PAC conspiracy bandwagon, making facile, sweeping assertions without proof to the effect that Jewish people in the US are leading us down the highway to hell because of Israel…..and if you don’t think that’s true, then go back and read some of the comment threads. READ them.
And that behavior like that smacks of “international Z*ionist conspiracy,” even if those involved don’t intend it that way. And that such attitudes ARE the seeds of toxic anti-semitism, of which history furnishes abundant proof.
And if you still want to dismiss me as a pro-Israel zealot, once you’ve really given thought to those things…..well, so be it.
oddmommy,
Generally, if people here are making facile, sweeping assertions without proof to the effect that Jewish people in the US are leading us down the highway to hell because of Israel, they get jumped. I think you’re generalizing about the debate. Many of the most eloquent commenters at fdl about these problems have been Jewish. Some have been Israelis. And some of us have immediately defended Jews, whether American or otherwise when somebody here uses the term “Jews” to break into a discussion about some of the policies of the government of Israel or of the actions of rightwing Zionists in the USA, be those Zionists Gentile, agnostic or Jew.
LS @ 70
In a practical person you would be absolutely right.
But, Progressives don’t shy from big problems — we like progress!
So, we don’t “STFU”, we discuss.
If we’re true to our principles we can’t really “fall for the bait”. Even emotional debaters can feel more in league with someone with whom they feel a bit of animosity than with someone who won’t even talk. Progressives love to discuss problems and opportunities and won’t shy from that. Maybe DLCers just act like Yes Men and maybe Repubs manipulate, but Progressives try to find great solutions to big problems.
Hopefully we can get beyond seeing the world *only* as we are and begin seeing it as it truly is and how it could be.
Dream of a better day!
BigMitch @ 116
Well put.
I think the Israelis and Jews worldwide are still in the grip of their Holocaust nightmare and they’re thrown too and fro without quite knowing why. You can easily imagine someone in that state feeling everyone and everything around them might be an enemy or somehow secretly harming them.
In the case of their neighbors it seems at time that they are child-like and naive about the world and their position in it. Take for example Arafat’s continual lying or Ahmadinejad’s silly denial of the Holocaust and then accepting it happened, but calling for more study. Those people need to grow up if they’re going to be responsible members of an international society of nations or if they’re ever to have more power than a herd of goats.
Take those two together and you have a very strange relationship.
Add the power of America, particularly in the hands of Bush, and it’s a disaster.
Hopefully we can get away from the Bush-Cheney disaster and on to something sensible and peaceful.
There’s a long way to go.
I’ll fight any man in the house for $10.
No takers?
Okay, I’m the champion. I outlasted all the fucking anti-Semites!
So there!
oddmommy @ 289
No, that twisted logic does not wash despite the bombastic condescension. I am not American and my ancestors had nothing to do with lands in the USA. That neither negates nor justifies Palestinian dispossession and Israel’s landgrab beyond its mandated 1967 borders.
Got it now?
I have been talking about this for 5 years and now, FINALLY, the gen public is noticing.You wouldnt believe the venom I had spewed at me for bringing up the topic of Tutu being banned from entering the occupied terrortories in 2005. Now it is being published here and there are almost 400 comments! Most of them positive and realistic. Of course we have the usual zio-trolls, who actually organize and send out emails to let each other know anytime a truth or some news is reported about Israel. Like the vicious cluster bombing of civilian villiages last summer in Lebanon. Remember the photos of young Israeli girls signing bomb shells “with love from Israel”? Can you imagine us here in the US wheeling out school kids on a field trip to sign bombs we were sending to kill poor Mexican villiagiers? It’’s time that people wake up to what is really going on and that is Israel and their utter command of our government through the neocons and Dem traitors. Go to AIPAC’s website and read the transcripts of the Dem speeches given since 2004. You’ll be shocked. Everyone from Howard Dean to Nancy to Obama to Harry Reid.
IF anyone has any doubts on how they operate, take a look at the ads the zionists took out picturing Ahmadinejad next to Hitler in a similiar pose with everyone spewing the twisted “wipe off the map” lie. Go to the site and read how they bussed in young zionists and recommended all women dress scantily and try to flash Ahmadinejad. Truly disgusting. It’’s at http://www.iran.org
Ed*ard Teller @ 334
Oh come on Ed. People have been attacked on this sight if you use the word Israel or A*P*C or have linked articles from the IAEA or the UN about these critical issues. People have been attacked personally by people who become rabid when this issue comes up. So please spare me this horseshit.
Yes “some” Jews have started speaking out honestly about this issue the last five years. (Amy Goodman, Rabbi Lerner and others) Norman Finkelstein, Noam Cholmsky and a few others have been speaking out for a very long time. While it is understandable that many Jews would be conflicted about protecting Israel and at the same time being fair. For the last 25 years that I have been involved with this issue, most Jews that I know have an extremely knee jerk, rigid reaction to the I/P conflict.
Many people know very little about the details of this issue and the debate has been quickly closed down for 60 years by pulling out the “anti-semitic” card.
Finally these closed doors have been opening up the last several years and people (including many here at FDL) have started to read more which leads to understanding.
This understanding can only lead to a resolution which supports Israel, Palestine and Peace in the middle east.
CTuttle @ 14
Thank you C Tuttle
Who the hell is Julie Swiler to decide who can and cannot speak at a public university? The poor girl, ““I told him that I’d run across some statements that were of concern to me,” says Swiler. “In a 2002 speech in Boston, he made some comments that were especially hurtful.””
Just what did he say that was “hurtful”. Maybe it was even true, but that doesn’t matter to Israel-firsters.
The tide may be changing though against the Israel Lobby. Look up former CIA agent Michael Scheuer’s interview by Bill Maher on “Real Time”. It is on youtube.
There was a decidely mixed-reaction from the audience.
Jane thank you for posting this about Bishop Tutu. I saw this yesterday and hoped the FDL folks would get brave enough to post it.
Here is a petition to sign for those concerned about the blocking of free speech at campuses abou t the I/P issue.
Muzzle Watch is an amazing website that post articles that are not seen anywhere else in the MSM or the “progressive” blogosphere.
http://www.muzzlewatch.com/?p=257
There is a conference coming up about this important issue. Bishop Tutu is the main speaker
Friends of Sabeel-New England presents . . .
“The Apartheid Paradigm in Palestine-Israel:
Issues of Justice and Equality”
October 26 – 27, 2007
Old South Church, 645 Boylston St., Boston
Friday—2:30 PM—10:00 PM
Saturday—8:00 AM—4:30 PM
Keynote Address: Archbishop Desmond Tutu
Panelists:
Naim Ateek * Anat Biletzki * Diana Buttu * Noam Chomsky
John Dugard * Farid Esack * Noura Erekat * Jeff Halper
Donald Wagner * David Wildman
BigMitch @ 337
I am amazed that you are holding on to my comment to Ed Teller and you let this type of name calling go through. Absurd and terribly hypocritical!
Get Tough @ 26
Ding Ding Ding
MEG @ 131
took FDL along time
Hugh @ 43
This “closed door policy” in regard to discussing the I/P issue fairly and openly on college and university campuses has been going on for a very long time. At least now these efforts to close down the discussion is taking place in the light, instead of in the shadows.
oddmommy @ 289
Odd Mommy you are 100% right that we live on stolen land and “some” of our ancestors committed genocide against the native peoples and brutally enslaved African Americans. But the immoral and horrendous crimes that “some” of our ancestors committed is absolutely no excuse for not responding to what is taking place for the Palestinian people.
Especially when this issue along with Israel’s nuclear, biological and chemical stockpiles that go unchecked, continue to infuriate most of the countries in the middle east.
Another reason we have the right to say something is that Israel receives close to one fourth of our overall output for US foreign aid. http://www.wrmea.com/us_aid_to_israel/index.htm
Over the last 60 years
Total Taxpayer Cost per Israeli
$23,240
For those of you who want to know and are open to more about the details of this conflict
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
Norman Finkelstein & Former Israeli Foreign Minister Shlomo Ben-Ami Debate:CompleteTranscript
http://www.democracynow.org/finkelstein-benami.s
html
The Mideast: A Century of Conflict
A Seven-Part Series Traces the Israeli-Palestinian Dispute
http://www.npr.org/news/specials/mideast/history/
Noam Chomsky v. Alan Dershowitz: A Debate on the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/12
/23/1450216
Edward Said (you will learn a great deal by reading his books)
http://www.israelipalestinianp…..dsaid.html
From an SA perspective :
Mandela and Archbishop Tutu are idolised in this country.He led the Truth & Reconciliation Committee which has been so admired elsewhere for thwarting bloody revenge plans.He is a member of “The Elders” a group of elder statesmen initiated by Madiba and including Jimmy Carter.A holy man, a peaceful man, a man of integrity and never afraid to speak out when something offends his moral compass without regard to political maneuverings.
During the apartheid years, the ANC (Mandela’s party) was ranked by the USA as a terrorist organisation along with the PLO, IRA etc.The apartheid regime had tight weapons and other trading links with Israel, as well as (openly) with Paraguay & Taiwan. All the “pariah” states together.So,one can sympathise with Tutu’s fellow-feeling with the Palestinians, I think.
As for the intractable, centuries-old Middle East problem – everyone who has ever ruled a bit of that bloodsoaked land is to blame and I see no solution.
I want to apologize for loosing my temper last night. I called for peace and then participated in the brawl.
I think the protagonists of Israel uber alles have fled the scene on account of their failure to make others to STFU, to quote one of them. It is interesting that this type of irrational and nonsensical debate dominates the US scene but is not really found in either Europe or Australia.
Suezboo, I share SA’s reverence for Tutu and his immense contribution to humanity in leading by example in promoting a paradigm of non-violence enshrined in the fundamental principle of eschewing vengeful retribution.
great article about the unparalled political power of the lobby by Uri A
http://www.informationclearing…..e18504.htm
I find this to be one of the most offensive comments ever left unmoderated at firedoglake. I’d like to request that it remain, as it is probably evidence of a tort committed by the originator of the comment. Thank you.
Ed*ard Teller @ 354
Agreed.
Ed*ard Teller @ 354
Agreed but another by the same commenter to
debar participants was equally reprehensible as was the same commenter’s attempt to deliberately misconstrue what was actually said. Also, shouting at others to STFU bc they do not agree is also neither rational nor civil.
Kathleen @ 343
Here’s another interesting post at Muzzlewatch.
Kathleen @ 349
oh sure throw out a ’sound bite’ and pretend you’ve made a point.
we need facts not one-liners.
sheesh.
(s.a.t.i.r.e. – o.b.v.i.o.u.s.l.y. – o.b.v.i.o.u.s. – s.a.t.i.r.e.)
I’ve also recently concluded this is the only workable attitude if one wishes to retain one’s ability to decide for one’s self what one thinks about the issue of Israel (And black and white race relations in the U.S. too. Good luck having a rational discussion in that ballpark as well.)
Distancing oneself with “hey, you want to call me a Nazi because the topic of “maybe Israel isn’t acting in its own best long-term interest” has come up?” Well, you can’t go any worse than that so I might as well say what I like from here on out. The dialog can’t degrade any farther. And heck, keep it up and the backlash is going to come on all the sooner. But, heck that will just feed so nicely into the victim mentality–hm, maybe that’s the point about trying to bring on the backlash… hm hm, must ponder this more…