Zedly?

yo

(((((((Marisa!)))))))

Marisa, welcome back to the Lake! Excellent post!!!

Hola Marissa!

I was just scanning a list of 14 points of fascism. Interesting to see how many of them: nationalism; disdain for human rights; identification of scapegoats as a unifying cause; obsession with national security; suppression of labor power; obsession with crime and punishment; and corruption can be found in the treatment of folks you’re writing about.

I think it’s important to note that this is not only racism, it is FASCISM alive and kicking in this country.

Thank you Marisa for your work.

Domenici to retire…!!!

http://tpmelectioncentral.com/…..retire.php

CTuttle @ 7

Domenici to retire…!!!

http://tpmelectioncentral.com/…..retire.php

guess that ethics investigation won’t be catching up with him anytime soon, eh?

Elliott @ 8

CTuttle @ 7

Domenici to retire…!!!

http://tpmelectioncentral.com/…..retire.php

guess that ethics investigation won’t be catching up with him anytime soon, eh?

Heather Wilson’s anointment as successor might be derailed…!!! *g*

Detention centers really worry me. As does Blackwater.

Where did everybody go…???

The whole immigration issue is about racism. Why Americans find people with brown skins threatening is a mystery to me, but there it is.

I have not read anything that argues convincingly that illegal immigrants are a net drain on the economy. My guess is that they’re a pretty big net plus, based on all the remittances they make to their relatives back home, which they wouldn’t be able to do were they not working like slaves. I’ve not seen any stats that indicate that criminality (other than their immigration status) is higher than in the general U.S. population. My guess is it’s a lot less, since they want to avoid being caught & sent back.

These 12 million came in while Clinton was prez & no one said word one about it. (Except in CA, where, what could they have been thinking about who would mow their lawns & care for their children.) W thought it was a political winner, & thought he actually knew something about the subject, having been a TX gov & speaking high school Spanish. But it turns out that if you peel back a layer of the onion, all those who never perceived a problem in the past suddenly think they’ve been invaded.

Racism indeed. Nothing else explains it.

What’s the legal basis for the police chasing the people out of the park? Doesn’t freedom of assembly come into play here? Did I miss something? Damn.

It’s a program that empowers the police force, on behalf of Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), to identify those immigrants who are not here legally – but the key factor in this program is that before it can be determined whether or not the person is in the country illegally, he/she must already be in jail for another offense.

What’s happening in Irving is that there seems to be clear abuse of this program. Church pastors and Mexican consulate officials are reporting that too many of the people they speak with are saying that police are indiscriminately approaching them on the streets, in yards, etc. and demanding proof of their immigration status – then they are carted off to jail.

This is happening in Sprindale, AR, Chicken central, home of Tysons foods. Another tactic ICE is using is in tandem with local and State police they are monitoring in person each individual traffic stop. If they desire, a driver will be arrested and ICE will kindly drive passengers home whether you want them to or not and then ICE will search the entire home and anyone there.

Now what would the police of Irving do, if a couple thousand Spanish-speaking US citizens came to town for a visit? Not as a march, but just in ones and twos and fours, coming through Irving at all times of day, all on the same day.

Stop them all for an ID check? That could take a while.

And if they happened not to have ID on them? That could fill the jails up pretty damn quick.

That could get expensive.

And if each one demanded a trial before a judge, with a jury? That could get mighty expensive.

Eureka Springs @ 14

It’s a program that empowers the police force, on behalf of Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), to identify those immigrants who are not here legally – but the key factor in this program is that before it can be determined whether or not the person is in the country illegally, he/she must already be in jail for another offense.

What’s happening in Irving is that there seems to be clear abuse of this program. Church pastors and Mexican consulate officials are reporting that too many of the people they speak with are saying that police are indiscriminately approaching them on the streets, in yards, etc. and demanding proof of their immigration status – then they are carted off to jail.

This is happening in Sprindale, AR, Chicken central, home of Tysons foods. Another tactic ICE is using is in tandem with local and State police they are monitoring in person each individual traffic stop. If they desire, a driver will be arrested and ICE will kindly drive passengers home whether you want them to or not and then ICE will search the entire home and anyone there.

So, basically, Tyson didn’t pony up enough cash for the Repugs’ campaign coffers…?!!! ;-)

Maybe this is why the repubs are so unconcerned about alienating minorities. There going to deport/imprison them all before the next election.

And, how exactly does a person w/o a drivers license prove he’s a citizen?

Many white folks don’t want brown folks living in their neigborhoods because they are racists.

A white lady named Lilly told me that there were renters living in her new subdivision and she did not like it. The renters have lots of children.

I discovered that these renters are Latinos. They are construction workers. As housing prices fell they bought homes in the neighborhood where they were working. Its the American dream. Seems that the only problem is that they are not white. Too bad.

Peterr @ 15

Now what would the police of Irving do, if a couple thousand Spanish-speaking US citizens came to town for a visit? Not as a march, but just in ones and twos and fours, coming through Irving at all times of day, all on the same day.

Stop them all for an ID check? That could take a while.

And if they happened not to have ID on them? That could fill the jails up pretty damn quick.

That could get expensive.

And if each one demanded a trial before a judge, with a jury? That could get mighty expensive.

Clever, but where would you find the brown people to subject themselves to such treatment in the current U.S. environment?

Sorry to be Off Topic.

I have been following this site for a while.
Lately it’s Blackwater, Rush, Gwb, various other asides. This politician, that politician.
This, or that policy. What strikes me more, is
the SCHIP issue. If you don’t have healthy and sane kids, Where is your country?
All this anger and flag waving does not make a
country. It is well educated and healthy children, whom given a future chance, will decide
for themselves, theirs, and our futures.
Personally, I place trust in them.

Shame on that veto.

People need something else to worry about. This has been ginned up for domestic consumption but I can’t figure out why. We really don’t need to be at a fever pitch about this.

I bet Lou Dobbs would have settled on some other topic to rant about if the war were going better (in other words, if it was over already).

There are a few nice people that live in Irving. Most of the rest are trailer trash with too much money.

Welcome, 123! How did you get that great handle so late in the game?!

hackworth @ 18

Many white folks don’t want brown folks living in their neigborhoods because they are racists.

A white lady named Lilly told me that there were renters living in her new subdivision and she did not like it. The renters have lots of children.

I discovered t hat these renters are Latinos. They are construction workers. As housing prices fell they bought homes in the neighborhood where they were working. Its the American dream. Seems that the only problem is that they are not white. Too bad.

We have that around here. Plenty of Puerto Ricans. perfectly legal American citizens, but culturally outsiders. Time and population shift are easing the problem. Although there is tension between the Puerto Rican community and the Mexicans (who could be legal residents or not)

123 @ 20

Sorry to be Off Topic.

I have been following this site for a while.
Lately it’s Blackwater, Rush, Gwb, various other asides. This politician, that politician.
This, or that policy. What strikes me more, is
the SCHIP issue. If you don’t have healthy and sane kids, Where is your country?
All this anger and flag waving does not make a
country. It is well educated and healthy children, whom given a future chance, will decide
for themselves, theirs, and our futures.
Personally, I place trust in them.

Shame on that veto.

i’ll go off topic with you to say ‘hear, hear!’

solai @ 17

Maybe this is why the repubs are so unconcerned about alienating minorities. There going to deport/imprison them all before the next election.

And, how exactly does a person w/o a drivers license prove he’s a citizen?

A legal immigrant would have documentation – I don’t know what you call them but here they would have documentation of having landed immigrant status or refugee status, or that they have applied for status and are awaiting determination, or citizenship papers once they become citizens.

A Canadian/American born citizen would have a birth certificate – again which here in Canada automatically makes them citizens. I don’t know how you guys do these things, though

CT, Evidently not but Sens. Pryor and Lincoln are doing Tysons and Wal Marts bidding don’t worry about that. The repeal of the Estate tax is coming up in the Senate once again this week, iirc, and Blanche Lincoln is in the Senate for one main reason to eliminate the Estate tax for the Waltons and their fellow AR billionaires.. The rest is just a game of checkers by comparison.

I love Mexicans.

Margot @ 21

People need something else to worry about. This has been ginned up for domestic consumption but I can’t figure out why. We really don’t need to be at a fever pitch about this.

I bet Lou Dobbs would have settled on some other topic to rant about if the war were going better (in other words, if it was over already).

Actually Lou Dobbs has been on this kick for over a decade. He started out being a populist labor supporter, arguing that outsourcing was taking away all the U.S. jobs. Then he segued into the immigration debate by arguing that immigrants were taking away U.S. jobs. Then it was easier for him to go into high dudgeon, as he could rant about the U.S. not being in control of its borders. Suddenly it became the gov’s fault, not business’ fault.

Fern @ 26

solai @ 17

Maybe this is why the repubs are so unconcerned about alienating minorities. There going to deport/imprison them all before the next election.

And, how exactly does a person w/o a drivers license prove he’s a citizen?

A legal immigrant would have documentation – I don’t know what you call them but here they would have documentation of having landed immigrant status or refugee status, or that they have applied for status and are awaiting determination, or citizenship papers once they become citizens.

A Canadian/American born citizen would have a birth certificate – again which here in Canada automatically makes them citizens. I don’t know how you guys do these things, though

yeah, we have those too, but no one wants to have to ‘carry papers’ or be ’stopped to have your papers checked.’ too fascist.

Fine post, Marisa. Thanks for bringing us the story.

Eureka Springs @ 27

CT, Evidently not but Sens. Pryor and Lincoln are doing Tysons and Wal Marts bidding don’t worry about that. The repeal of the Estate tax is coming up in the Senate once again this week, iirc, and Blanche Lincoln is in the Senate for one main reason to eliminate the Estate tax for the Waltons and their fellow AR billionaires.. The rest is just a game of checkers by comparison.

The repeal of the ‘Death Tax’ only benefits the Waltons and a select few, no doubt about that…!!!

What about the wave of illegal Canadians? They’ll lower the excitement level, use “eh” inappropriately and mispronounce “about” as “a boot”. We better round them up as fast as we can, we just need to have the cops stop every white person we see and demand identification and proof of citizenship. /snark

A question – are European immigrants treated the same or differently from others? What about Asians and Africans? Is it mostly latinos that are getting nailed by ICE?

I guess what I am getting at – is it anti-immigration in general, or targeted at specific races/types of immigrants.

Loo Hoo. @ 23

Welcome, 123! How did you get that great handle so late in the game?!

Still don’t know if I’m doing this right, but thanks. Just drifted out of the top. Having been
here for years, just can’t give it up. Of course!
I recognize, at least your ‘Handle’. Thanks.

eCAHNomics @ 19

Peterr @ 15

Now what would the police of Irving do, if a couple thousand Spanish-speaking US citizens came to town for a visit? Not as a march, but just in ones and twos and fours, coming through Irving at all times of day, all on the same day.

Stop them all for an ID check? That could take a while.

And if they happened not to have ID on them? That could fill the jails up pretty damn quick.

That could get expensive.

And if each one demanded a trial before a judge, with a jury? That could get mighty expensive.

Clever, but where would you find the brown people to subject themselves to such treatment in the current U.S. environment?

They’re already here, and already subjected to this kind of treatment. But it happens all over, not localized in one spot, and it goes unreported (generally speaking).

But this tactic is not new — it’s nothing but a variation on what King and the black civil rights marchers did, and Ghandi and his followers before them.

And I wouldn’t be surprised if some of my clergy colleagues in the area try something like this.

Fern @ 34

A question – are European immigrants treated the same or differently from others? What about Asians and Africans? Is it mostly latinos that are getting nailed by ICE?

I guess what I am getting at – is it anti-immigration in general, or targeted at specific races/types of immigrants.

See my 33. Being brown with an accent is all it takes, sometimes being brown by itself is enough.

Kathryn in MA @ 30

Fern @ 26

A legal immigrant would have documentation – I don’t know what you call them but here they would have documentation of having landed immigrant status or refugee status, or that they have applied for status and are awaiting determination, or citizenship papers once they become citizens.

A Canadian/American born citizen would have a birth certificate – again which here in Canada automatically makes them citizens. I don’t know how you guys do these things, though

yeah, we have those too, but no one wants to have to ‘carry papers’ or be ’stopped to have your papers checked.’ too fascist.

Agreed. Though a citizenship card is no more difficult to carry than a driver’s license or bank card.

petedownunder @ 33

What about the wave of illegal Canadians? They’ll lower the excitement level, use “eh” inappropriately and mispronounce “about” as “a boot”. We better round them up as fast as we can, we just need to have the cops stop every white person we see and demand identification and proof of citizenship. /snark

We’re a scary bunch all right.

123 @ 20

Sorry to be Off Topic.

I have been following this site for a while.
Lately it’s Blackwater, Rush, Gwb, various other asides. This politician, that politician.
This, or that policy. What strikes me more, is
the SCHIP issue. If you don’t have healthy and sane kids, Where is your country?
All this anger and flag waving does not make a
country. It is well educated and healthy children, whom given a future chance, will decide
for themselves, theirs, and our futures.
Personally, I place trust in them.

Shame on that veto.

Please don’t worry SCHIP has been covered quite extensively here including this and this both today from Jane and Christy respectively.

They don’t even try to hide it anymore. Great post, Marisa.

petedownunder @ 37

Fern @ 34

A question – are European immigrants treated the same or differently from others? What about Asians and Africans? Is it mostly latinos that are getting nailed by ICE?

I guess what I am getting at – is it anti-immigration in general, or targeted at specific races/types of immigrants.

See my 33. Being brown with an accent is all it takes, sometimes being brown by itself is enough.

Any kind of brown? Or is there special malice towards Mexicans and such?

Peterr@36
Yeah, but they don’t do it voluntarily.

Fern @ 26

solai @ 17

Maybe this is why the repubs are so unconcerned about alienating minorities. There going to deport/imprison them all before the next election.

And, how exactly does a person w/o a drivers license prove he’s a citizen?

A legal immigrant would have documentation – I don’t know what you call them but here they would have documentation of having landed immigrant status or refugee status, or that they have applied for status and are awaiting determination, or citizenship papers once they become citizens.

A Canadian/American born citizen would have a birth certificate – again which here in Canada automatically makes them citizens. I don’t know how you guys do these things, though

Pretty much the same deal in the US. Legal immigrants will receive a green card within 30 days of landing. Then, they will get an appointment for biometrics (fingerprints and photo) and finally an interview and a resident alien card (conditional residency) within about 90 days. They’re good for two years. Then they go for unconditional alien residency.

Immigrants get a much better deal in Canada with the health care benefit they receive immediately upon landing. The nanny program in Canada is an excellent opportunity for third world citizens to make a better life for themselves. They can then support their parents and siblings back home.

ICE is doing the same thing in Marin County. DUI check points are set up and ICE is waiting in the wings. The immigrants all say they are from Mexico, get sent back, and they come right back over the border. They are back at work in a week or so. Some haven’t even missed their subprime mortage payment.

I’m sorry to go OT, but I just saw this at ThinkProgress. This was part of Bush’s speech today:

I got a lot of Ph.D.-types and smart people around me who come into the Oval Office and say, ‘Mr. President, here’s what’s on my mind.’ And I listen carefully to their advice. But having gathered the device (sic), I decide, you know, I say, ‘This is what we’re going to do.’ And it’s ‘Yes, sir, Mr. President.’ And then we get after it, implement policy.”

OMG, The President Of The United States Of America is an as***le.

Peterr @ 36

eCAHNomics @ 19

Clever, but where would you find the brown people to subject themselves to such treatment in the current U.S. environment?

They’re already here, and already subjected to this kind of treatment. But it happens all over, not localized in one spot, and it goes unreported (generally speaking).

But this tactic is not new — it’s nothing but a variation on what King and the black civil rights marchers did, and Ghandi and his followers before them.

And I wouldn’t be surprised if some of my clergy colleagues in the area try something like this.

However if part of the purpose or these crackdowns is to bolster the incarceration industry, then it could be counterproductive.

eCAHNomics @ 12

“The whole immigration issue is about racism. Why Americans find people with brown skins threatening is a mystery to me, but there it is.”

Interestingly, every African American delegate at our Democratic District Convention for the past two years spoke against illegal immigration.

When I worked a warehouse job last summer, where the ethnic mix was 1/3 Latino, 1/3 black and 1/3 white, the majority of blacks I spoke with were also opposed to illegal immigration.

I’m guessing these working class Americans did not have racial motivations.

I’m guessing they have a clearer insight, residing at the bottom of the socio-economic ladder, as to how corporate interests are exploiting Latinos to obtain a low-wage, subservient labor force. This exploitation blows back into the lower end of the working class, depressing their wages, and increasing competition for social assistance and education dollars that do not keep pace with demand or inflation.

I am not about to support corporate exploitation of working people, whether they are illegal immigrants or citizens.

If we truly need this labor force, all our elected officials have to do is up allowable immigration numbers. Where’s all the pressure to do so, rather than this chicken-shit, back into it, fait accompli, so legalize them?

If not, WTF?

I am pragmatic enough to know we can’t, and shouldn’t deport them all. For those who have ties here, hold a job, kids in school, have a clean record, etc., legalize them to full citizenship and end corporate exploitation.

Fern @ 39

petedownunder @ 33

What about the wave of illegal Canadians? They’ll lower the excitement level, use “eh” inappropriately and mispronounce “about” as “a boot”. We better round them up as fast as we can, we just need to have the cops stop every white person we see and demand identification and proof of citizenship. /snark

We’re a scary bunch all right.

Not to fear, the Minutemen are on the job.

Thank you to those of you who were worried about us last night during that storm.

lahoma.

RBG @ 49

Fern @ 39

We’re a scary bunch all right.

Not to fear, the Minutemen are on the job.

Thank goodness for their watchful eyes! lol

solai @ 46

I’m sorry to go OT, but I just saw this at ThinkProgress. This was part of Bush’s speech today:

I got a lot of Ph.D.-types and smart people around me who come into the Oval Office and say, ‘Mr. President, here’s what’s on my mind.’ And I listen carefully to their advice. But having gathered the device (sic), I decide, you know, I say, ‘This is what we’re going to do.’ And it’s ‘Yes, sir, Mr. President.’ And then we get after it, implement policy.”

OMG, The President Of The United States Of America is an as***le.

Really? Let me look….

RBG @ 49

Fern @ 39

We’re a scary bunch all right.

Not to fear, the Minutemen are on the job.

Suckers. It’s an exceedingly long and mostly very boring border.

Pretty much the same deal in the US. Legal immigrants will receive a green card within 30 days of landing. Then, they will get an appointment for biometrics (fingerprints and photo) and finally an interview and a resident alien card (conditional residency) within about 90 days. They’re good for two years. Then they go for unconditional alien residency.

I get that. But, what if you’re a 2nd or 3rd or 4th generation Mexican-American and you get stopped. How do those people prove they have a right to be here?

Fern @ 34

A question – are European immigrants treated the same or differently from others? What about Asians and Africans? Is it mostly latinos that are getting nailed by ICE?

I guess what I am getting at – is it anti-immigration in general, or targeted at specific races/types of immigrants.

Any individual with high yellow coloring or darker would be a target. White Canadians pass as real Archie Bunker Americans and travel unmolested.

Fern @ 53

RBG @ 49

Not to fear, the Minutemen are on the job.

Suckers. It’s an exceedingly long and mostly very boring border.

Much easier for the terrorists to come across the Canadian border than the Mexican border. Many Muslims in Canada & less scrutiny at the border.

Fern @ 53

RBG @ 49

Not to fear, the Minutemen are on the job.

Suckers. It’s an exceedingly long and mostly very boring border.

yeah, but you gotta admire that they walk the talk.

petedownunder @ 33

What about the wave of illegal Canadians? They’ll lower the excitement level, use “eh” inappropriately and mispronounce “about” as “a boot”. We better round them up as fast as we can, we just need to have the cops stop every white person we see and demand identification and proof of citizenship. /snark

The rush to the border may well be going in the other direction!

For my Chicana and Chicano cousins in Dallas. We will see you guys this Saturday.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…..mp;search=

Speaking of immigration and incarceration in Texas, the Williamson County commissioners may tell ICE and DHS to take a hike and take their immigration prison with them next October when the contract expires. The county owns the building that houses the Don Hutto Residential Center, and doesn’t want to be legally liable for the activities of the company that runs the place.

It couldn’t happen to a nicer place.

dakine01 @ 40

123 @ 20

Sorry to be Off Topic.

I have been following this site for a while.
Lately it’s Blackwater, Rush, Gwb, various other asides. This politician, that politician.
This, or that policy. What strikes me more, is
the SCHIP issue. If you don’t have healthy and sane kids, Where is your country?
All this anger and flag waving does not make a
country. It is well educated and healthy children, whom given a future chance, will decide
for themselves, theirs, and our futures.
Personally, I place trust in them.

Shame on that veto.

Please don’t worry SCHIP has been covered quite extensively here including this and this both today from Jane and Christy respectively.

Thankyou for that. I live outside or your borders, so basically, I am just asking with
probably less information that you have within
yours. Believe me, whatever transpires, much
attention is paid. We are all included.

It is not personal.

solai @ 54

Pretty much the same deal in the US. Legal immigrants will receive a green card within 30 days of landing. Then, they will get an appointment for biometrics (fingerprints and photo) and finally an interview and a resident alien card (conditional residency) within about 90 days. They’re good for two years. Then they go for unconditional alien residency.

I get that. But, what if you’re a 2nd or 3rd or 4th generation Mexican-American and you get stopped. How do those people prove they have a right to be here?

Well, that’s a good question. A driver license and the lack of a foreign accent would likely be enough to satisfy any American Gestapo. In the event of a heavy spanish accent, I don’t know.

Fern @ 38

Kathryn in MA @ 30

yeah, we have those too, but no one wants to have to ‘carry papers’ or be ’stopped to have your papers checked.’ too fascist.

Agreed. Though a citizenship card is no more difficult to carry than a driver’s license or bank card.

The very idea that you have to carry the card is what makes it so dangerous. What’s next, internal passports? In a free society you can’t allow the government that kind of power.

eCAHNomics @ 29,
Thanks, I wasn’t aware of Dobbs’ long history on this.
I do wish people would better prioritize their limited ranting time.
Universal Health Care!

Peterr @ 60

Speaking of immigration and incarceration in Texas, the Williamson County commissioners may tell ICE and DHS to take a hike and take their immigration prison with them next October when the contract expires. The county owns the building that houses the Don Hutto Residential Center, and doesn’t want to be legally liable for the activities of the company that runs the place.

It couldn’t happen to a nicer place.

What a good place to apply pressure on this!!!

Hi Marisa. I am a Texican teenager living in Texas. I was born here. At school they said we should always have our school ID with us in case we get stopped, and the phone number for the school police is on the back of the card, and the city police are supposed to call the school police if there is a problem.

I think brown skin Hispanic people only get stopped and asked if they are a citizen when they are doing something the cops want to stop. But I don’t know. Nobody gets stopped in the neighborhood where I live, but they do on the east side.

123 – most certainly, we are all in this together! Thank you for your concern – we are trying to do right by you and everyone else.

solai @ 46

I’m sorry to go OT, but I just saw this at ThinkProgress. This was part of Bush’s speech today:

I got a lot of Ph.D.-types and smart people around me who come into the Oval Office and say, ‘Mr. President, here’s what’s on my mind.’ And I listen carefully to their advice. But having gathered the device (sic), I decide, you know, I say, ‘This is what we’re going to do.’ And it’s ‘Yes, sir, Mr. President.’ And then we get after it, implement policy.”

OMG, The President Of The United States Of America is an as***le.

Alert the media!

Another superb post Marisa about the descent into hell that this country is being taken!

Also, I know this is OT, but it too seems to epitomize that same “descent into hell” you write about – From the NYT:

When the Justice Department publicly declared torture “abhorrent” in a legal opinion in December 2004, the Bush administration appeared to have abandoned its assertion of nearly unlimited presidential authority to order brutal interrogations.

But soon after Alberto R. Gonzales’s arrival as attorney general in February 2005, the Justice Department issued another opinion, this one in secret. It was a very different document, according to officials briefed on it, an expansive endorsement of the harshest interrogation techniques ever used by the Central Intelligence Agency.

The new opinion, the officials said, for the first time provided explicit authorization to barrage terror suspects with a combination of painful physical and psychological tactics, including head-slapping, simulated drowning and frigid temperatures.

Mr. Gonzales approved the legal memorandum on “combined effects” over the objections of James B. Comey, the deputy attorney general, who was leaving his job after bruising clashes with the White House. Disagreeing with what he viewed as the opinion’s overreaching legal reasoning, Mr. Comey told colleagues at the department that they would all be “ashamed” when the world eventually learned of it.

(My bold)

This is a 6 page long article and is the lead story running at the New York Times. Read it and weep.

If any of you have been to a foreign country, you know how protective you are of your passport. My mother bought this passport pouch on a string to wear it like a necklace under her clothes. She wanted to loan it to me last time I went to Europe. I passed, but I did give it to the hotel to put it in their safe. Imagine that kind of fear, every day.

solai @ 70

If any of you have been to a foreign country, you know how protective you are of your passport. My mother bought this passport pouch on a string to wear it like a necklace under her clothes. She wanted to loan it to me last time I went to Europe. I passed, but I did give it to the hotel to put it in their safe. Imagine that kind of fear, every day.

That is why school ID’s come on lanyards.

I live in Irving in the 70’s and it was a “Sundown Town” then. My sister and her family live there now and the attitude is the same. She does not think “those people” fit in to their definition of the happy burb. The problem is that Irving seems to be developing an active Latino economic base, at least the last time I visited.

The citizens better be careful least they discover a big portion of their tax revenve gone and a lot of boarded up buildings. Could lead to a new, undesirabe population group.

But Hispanics were in Texas WAY before any of the white people came.

SeamusD @ 63

Fern @ 38

Agreed. Though a citizenship card is no more difficult to carry than a driver’s license or bank card.

The very idea that you have to carry the card is what makes it so dangerous. What’s next, internal passports? In a free society you can’t allow the government that kind of power.

You are absolutely right. The thing is, though, that most legal alien residents would not even take a short walk without carrying their resident alien card. They don’t trust the government. Can you blame them?

solai @ 54

Pretty much the same deal in the US. Legal immigrants will receive a green card within 30 days of landing. Then, they will get an appointment for biometrics (fingerprints and photo) and finally an interview and a resident alien card (conditional residency) within about 90 days. They’re good for two years. Then they go for unconditional alien residency.

I get that. But, what if you’re a 2nd or 3rd or 4th generation Mexican-American and you get stopped. How do those people prove they have a right to be here?

Birth certificate.

Kathryn in MA @ 25

123 @ 20

Sorry to be Off Topic.

I have been following this site for a while.
Lately it’s Blackwater, Rush, Gwb, various other asides. This politician, that politician.
This, or that policy. What strikes me more, is
the SCHIP issue. If you don’t have healthy and sane kids, Where is your country?
All this anger and flag waving does not make a
country. It is well educated and healthy children, whom given a future chance, will decide
for themselves, theirs, and our futures.
Personally, I place trust in them.

Shame on that veto.

i’ll go off topic with you to say ‘hear, hear!’

I may be late, but thank you too.

solai @ 70

If any of you have been to a foreign country, you know how protective you are of your passport. My mother bought this passport pouch on a string to wear it like a necklace under her clothes. She wanted to loan it to me last time I went to Europe. I passed, but I did give it to the hotel to put it in their safe. Imagine that kind of fear, every day.

After Nixon was reelected, i and a few others left to hitchhike south as far as we could go and found ourselves on the ‘hippy trail.’ i made a passport pouch as you described out of fabulous Guatemalan fabric and wore it on the outside so the fabric would show. But, yes indeed, you did not take off that pouch.

Fern @ 75

solai @ 54

I get that. But, what if you’re a 2nd or 3rd or 4th generation Mexican-American and you get stopped. How do those people prove they have a right to be here?

Birth certificate.

Yeah, but saying “Mine’s at home, officer” gets old after a while.

“I’ll show you mine if you show me yours” doesn’t get a much better reaction.

SnarKassandra @ 71

solai @ 70

That is why school ID’s come on lanyards.

i never heard of school IDs on a lanyard. Too sad.

SnarKassandra @ 73

But Hispanics were in Texas WAY before any of the white people came.

I know, it doesn’t make sense.

When I was a kid in New Mexico, I heard people from foreign states like Oregon saying, “I wish these people would go back where they belong.”
‘These people’ had families who had been there since the 1500s. It’s just crazy.

Margot @ 80

SnarKassandra @ 73

But Hispanics were in Texas WAY before any of the white people came.

I know, it doesn’t make sense.

When I was a kid in New Mexico, I heard people from foreign states like Oregon saying, “I wish these people would go back where they belong.”
‘These people’ had families who had been there since the 1500s. It’s just crazy.

Hey, we stole it fair & square.

My dad’s family came to Texas from New York in 1987. My mom’s family was in Texas from when it was part of Mexico.

Ooops. 1977

SnarKassandra @ 73

But Hispanics were in Texas WAY before any of the white people came.

Revisionist Snark? *g*

OT-
Brian McGough, the Iraq war veteran who was compared by Rush Limbaugh to a suicide bomber, appeared on MSNBC’s Countdown tonight. Part of his response to Limbaugh:

I’d really like to say and to reiterate what I’ve said before: Ask me or any other members of VoteVets.org to come on your program and talk to you and tell you how we feel. Don’t just talk bad about us, and when we say ‘hey, that’s not right,’ try to talk bad about us again. And think before you open your mouth.

link

I remember a long time ago Lahoma and I were stopped outside a little town in Texas. The cop said we looked like Mexicans and that we should step out of the car. He got our ID and did the usual checks and came back to my truck and said they didn’t have “anything on us”. Then he said if we were going to Mexico, we had better be careful when we got back. I said we were not Mexican and that we were not going to Mexico. And I indicated we were American Indian. He said “same difference”.

SnarKassandra @ 82

My dad’s family came to Texas from New York in 1987. My mom’s family was in Texas from when it was part of Mexico.

Parts of my parent’s family came to these shores in the early 1600s. The last part came with the Irish immigration wave in the 1840s. But there were also some of my parent’s ancestors waiting and waving on the shores as the first ones come along from England.

RBG @ 49

Fern @ 39

We’re a scary bunch all right.

Not to fear, the Minutemen are on the job.

Hey, I’m an ex-canuck… And a twenty-year US Army vet, I could show them a little love…!!! *g*

Eureka Springs @ 84

SnarKassandra @ 73

But Hispanics were in Texas WAY before any of the white people came.

Revisionist Snark? *g*

huh??? They were.

Was it Chertoff who said the other day that border fences were environmental?

Did you hear that all the mayors down at the border won’t let the govt come in to build the fence?

OT, if any Mods are hanging around, you might want to check and close the previous thread ’cause the trolls are back again filling it up with their spew.

Panama still welcomes Americans. What a different philosophy about people entering a new country. I realize the economic differences, but it won’t be long before a country like Panama is ahead of us.

Pensionado Program.

Mad Dogs @ 92

OT, if any Mods are hanging around, you might want to check and close the previous thread ’cause the trolls are back again filling it up with their spew.

For real? I gotta see what drivel they offer up now…!!!

I know SnarKassandra.. I was just pulling your leg. Funny thing for me is all of the years I lived in TX it just never occurred to me there was any difference between me and any others but I was very young and no one taught me otherwise. Like margot, I learned a lot about history and pathetic white people when I moved to NM later on.

I listened to a local minuteman leader on the radio the other day— it’s a wet dream for the guy- he gets to run around in his four wheel drive with guns an radios lookin fer bad guys- and he’s treated like a SOMEBODY for the first time in his life by reporters, legislators, and such..

Fun life.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 86

I remember a long time ago Lahoma and I were stopped outside a little town in Texas. The cop said we looked like Mexicans and that we should step out of the car. He got our ID and did the usual checks and came back to my truck and said they didn’t have “anything on us”. Then he said if we were going to Mexico, we had better be careful when we got back. I said we were not Mexican and that we were not going to Mexico. And I indicated we were American Indian. He said “same difference”.

Did the Gestapo say what his probable cause was for stopping you, or was driving with dark skin sufficient?

Waaay back in the day, I took a cop quickie course (I was fire and rescue, and the course was in aid of better interdepartmental cooperation)and the cop instructor drilled it into us – the Constitution says cops must have probable cause to stop a citizen.

Quaint, I realize – how far we have fallen.

eCAHNomics @ 12

The whole immigration issue is about racism. Why Americans find people with brown skins threatening is a mystery to me, but there it is.

I have not read anything that argues convincingly that illegal immigrants are a net drain on the economy. My guess is that they’re a pretty big net plus, based on all the remittances they make to their relatives back home, which they wouldn’t be able to do were they not working like slaves. I’ve not seen any stats that indicate that criminality (other than their immigration status) is higher than in the general U.S. population. My guess is it’s a lot less, since they want to avoid being caught & sent back.

These 12 million came in while Clinton was prez & no one said word one about it. (Except in CA, where, what could they have been thinking about who would mow their lawns & care for their children.) W thought it was a political winner, & thought he actually knew something about the subject, having been a TX gov & speaking high school Spanish. But it turns out that if you peel back a layer of the onion, all those who never perceived a problem in the past suddenly think they’ve been invaded.

Racism indeed. Nothing else explains it.

There are two serious issues at stake, and they never get answered by ANY ONE, on ANY side, when the ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION issue is raised.

1) They don’t pay taxes.
2) They drain and use health facilities/ER disproportianatley than citizens do.

I can’t fault ANY citizen for not appreciating that.

I’m not qualified to answer if we have room, if they take away jobs, if they are being used to erode the middle class whose jobs are being outsourced, if they are being used to suppress wages, do work whites won’t, etc.

But I DO know, if I’m an illegal immigrant to any OTHER country, I won’t be getting very good treatment, I don’t think.

Is there racism involved within this issue at large? HAYALL YES!!!

But there’s LOTS more thoughtful and intelligent and urgent issues at hand, as well.

Issues that impact both citizens, and illegal immigrants. As humans, all voices should be heard.

Solutions? I got none.

Either open the border, make them citizens when they cross, and wish them well to compete in our society . . .

Or seal the border. Period. No exceptions. And people can learn to pick their OWN crops. And do their own toilets, and clean their own houses, and serve their own fast foods.

Our whole system is so broken, the illegal immigrant issue seems to me to be just an excuse to have a fight, while really ignoring the serious stuff . . like, where’s the jobs, where’s the middle class, where’s the healthcare for all, where’s the education system we used to have.

Where’s the HOPE of moving up and acquiring wealth thru hard work and perseverance gone.

Cuz it’s gone. For the majority, that hope’s gone, and that hope now exists for a minority of those who hold and control the distribution of wealth.

Racism is a small part of what we are facing.

Till the large parts are addressed, the rest don’t amount to much more than bright shiny objects of diversion, and decisiveness.

Course, I’m just a middle aged white guy with a liberal and progressive parenting, education and background raised in multiple cultures when I was young.

What would I know . . .

Lots of countries would love to have retired americans comin down to drop cash- they’re too old to be much of a nuisance and they are good for the economy. They get cheated on real estate and pay too much for tortillas. A merchant’s dream.

Dallas is the land of football field-sized road signs for exclusive retail outlets that proclaim “Shop Like You Mean It”, and whose mega-churches demand that y’all “Come to Jesus or Go to Hell”. It wears everything on its sleeve, from Mary K’s cosmetics to its crude displays of wealth. If the “nouveau riche” did not already exist, Dallas would have invented them; they have perfected ruthless selfishness.

Presumably, the Dallas construction industry is no longer booming and the white folk have no interest in learning why their McMansions were so cheap or how that acre of new sod got laid for a quarter. When housing again booms, expect the police to hold barbecues to encourage immigrant labor to return to the land of milk and plenty. They may even learn a bit of Mr. Bush’s grade school level Spanish.

Of course immigrants pay taxes. It’s pure ignorance to say otherwise.

They pay sales taxes. If they rent, they pay property taxes (indirectly). They pay PAYROLL taxes into accounts that aren’t really theirs- so they can never collect on what they put in.

Some may go to emergency rooms and walk the check- but most are afraid to do that- so they go to “DOC IN A BOX”

diogenes @ 97

Oklahoma kiddo @ 86

I remember a long time ago Lahoma and I were stopped outside a little town in Texas. The cop said we looked like Mexicans and that we should step out of the car. He got our ID and did the usual checks and came back to my truck and said they didn’t have “anything on us”. Then he said if we were going to Mexico, we had better be careful when we got back. I said we were not Mexican and that we were not going to Mexico. And I indicated we were American Indian. He said “same difference”.

Did the Gestapo say what his probable cause was for stopping you, or was driving with dark skin sufficient?

Waaay back in the day, I took a cop quickie course (I was fire and rescue, and the course was in aid of better interdepartmental cooperation)and the cop instructor drilled it into us – the Constitution says cops must have probable cause to stop a citizen.

Quaint, I realize – how far we have fallen.

The PC was that I did not give a lane change signal. And I got a citation.

Here people go to clinics if they don’t go to regular doctors. We live right behind a big one.

eCAHNomics @ 12

. . .
Racism indeed. Nothing else explains it.

Racism is a distraction. It’s a matter of economics, and control of wealth, and control of the masses. Take a Marxist view, and the racism is secondary. Racism becomes a TOOL to wield control.

Stop blaming humans for racism, and blame them for being cruel, evil and greedy to no end.

Do they have anti-immigrant hate in places where the immigrants are the same color as the people in the government?

SnarKassandra @ 105

Do they have anti-immigrant hate in places where the immigrants are the same color as the people in the government?

Sure, race, religion, most of all one only need be poor.

SnarKassandra @ 103

Here people go to clinics if they don’t go to regular doctors. We live right behind a big one.

Lahoma and I both go to the local clinic. It has a full time doctor and we have just hired a bilingual nurse. My cousin is on the clinic board. my whole family around here goes to the clinic. We are proud of our clinic.

SnarKassandra @ 105

Do they have anti-immigrant hate in places where the immigrants are the same color as the people in the government?

In those cases it can turn into one sided class warfare.

You know what is starting to annoy me?

The assumption that all (or most) immigrants are uneducated and low skilled. This is simply not true – many immigrants have university/college education, professional designations, and plenty of skills. And when the retirement of baby boomers picks up pace, as it will, you are going to need these people. I know a number of employers who go overseas to recruit people for high-skilled positions they cannot fill in the current labour market. There is international competition for some of these people.

CTuttle @ 94

Mad Dogs @ 92

OT, if any Mods are hanging around, you might want to check and close the previous thread ’cause the trolls are back again filling it up with their spew.

For real? I gotta see what drivel they offer up now…!!!

And, drivel it is; “…unabashed liberal partisans. By your own argument, wouldn’t their commentary be, to paraphrase your own assertion, destructive to the ability of Republicans to function in a military context?”
I’m a ‘unabashed liberal partisan’, always was…!!! I was awarded numerous awards during my service, usually, because I’d bailed out numerous Field-Grade Officers from certain doom…!!! *g*

Or seal the border. Period. No exceptions.

Exactly how would that be done?

SnarKassandra @ 105

Do they have anti-immigrant hate in places where the immigrants are the same color as the people in the government?

Yes.

SnarKassandra @ 105

Do they have anti-immigrant hate in places where the immigrants are the same color as the people in the government?

This is very common in Europe when I used to live there, where what they call “race” may actually vary as a function of ethnicity, religion and caste. If you’re a Kosovar refugee in the UK, you’re pretty much scum and an assumed criminal, not matter what you look like.

Is FDL doing a health care post this week?

Blub @ 113

SnarKassandra @ 105

Do they have anti-immigrant hate in places where the immigrants are the same color as the people in the government?

This is very common in Europe when I used to live there, where what they call “race” may actually vary as a function of ethnicity, religion and caste. If you’re a Kosovar refugee in the UK, you’re pretty much scum and an assumed criminal, not matter what you look like.

Or, Turkish in Deutschland!!! 8-(

sorry.. class, not caste in #113

Lots of immigrant problems in France, Germany, and the Netherlands- and probably in many other European countries.

In Germany it’s the Turks. In France it’s Algerians.

Europeans actually seem MORE belligerent than we do on these subjects.

It’s a DNA thing perhaps.

At mid nineteenth century, the chinese got the shit kicked out of em regularly in the west where they were brought to work on the railroads- treated as subhumans. Run out of town regulary.

People can be pretty stupid sometimes. Why is it hard to just like people if they are nice and ignore them if they are not? What does it matter what color they are or where their grandma was born?

In the forties the japanese americans were herded into pens and treated as animals- all of their property confiscated.

rwcole @ 117

Lots of immigrant problems in France, Germany, and the Netherlands- and probably in many other European countries.

In Germany it’s the Turks. In France it’s Algerians.

Europeans actually seem MORE belligerent than we do on these subjects.

It’s a DNA thing perhaps.

I think it’s because some of these countries were sort of mono-cultural for a while – and they are afraid of the end of their sense of community, traditions etc. I think it’s worst if most of the immigration comes from one or two sources – like Turks in Germany or Algerians and other north Africans in France.

rwcole @ 117

Lots of immigrant problems in France, Germany, and the Netherlands- and probably in many other European countries.

In Germany it’s the Turks. In France it’s Algerians.

Europeans actually seem MORE belligerent than we do on these subjects.

It’s a DNA thing perhaps.

Espana and the Moroccans…!!!

rwcole @ 120

In the forties the japanese americans were herded into pens and treated as animals- all of their property confiscated.

The Irish were treated like crap and seen as little more than savages in both Canada and the US at the time of the early migrations.

In the case of France- the immigrant issue stems from the days of empire. In the case of germany it stems from the liquidation of the work force during WW2- workers were needed.

SnarKassandra @ 114

Is FDL doing a health care post this week?

Um, earlier today, from Jane, here’s one….

Here’s a funny one. I got mugged once in Paris. The muggers were of subsaharan African descent — most likely Senegalese (I spent some time in Africa years ago), but the police wouldn’t believe me, and kept on trying to insist that the boys who attacked me were (presumably more light-skinned and caucasian-featured) North African Arab-types, and that I had been fooled by the poor lighting.

Fern @ 123

rwcole @ 120

In the forties the japanese americans were herded into pens and treated as animals- all of their property confiscated.

The Irish were treated like crap and seen as little more than savages in both Canada and the US at the time of the early migrations.

And they are white and look just like the people who were mistreating them.

I had three vietnamese guys try to take my wallet in a Paris subway station–lots of underworld everywhere I guess.

And they are white and look just like the people who were mistreating them.

Except for the hair on their palms of course.

People can be pretty stupid sometimes. Why is it hard to just like people if they are nice and ignore them if they are not?
Good question.
But, but people Here At The Lake have the same problem.
Maybe I’m wrong, but that’s what I see, day after day.
:)

SnarKassandra @ 127

Fern @ 123

The Irish were treated like crap and seen as little more than savages in both Canada and the US at the time of the early migrations.

And they are white and look just like the people who were mistreating them.

Ah, but there is a lot more going on than colour. In Canada the ruling elites at the time were English – and had their own very long and bitter history with the Irish, as well as the Scots. They brought their issues from across the pond.

rwcole @ 129

And they are white and look just like the people who were mistreating them.

Except for the hair on their palms of course.

Interestingly though, popular media at the time was full of articles about how to physically tell the Irish apart from Anglos.. happened during WW2: propaganda articles put out by the likes of the Hearst papers made it clear that Chinese and Koreans look physically more caucasian and, well, pleasant, than the devilish Japanese.. again identifying specific features to demonize the enemy of the day.

rwcole @ 120

In the forties the japanese americans were herded into pens and treated as animals- all of their property confiscated.

And many of the eligible fathers and sons served in the most decorated Military Unit in US Army history, at the same time, enduring appalling casualty rates! The 442nd,100thBN!!! *g*

Marcy’s up.

When Congress asked about 5 million executive branch e-mails that went missing, a White House lawyer pointed the finger at an outside IT contractor.

The only problem? No such IT contractor exists, according to sources close to the investigation of a possible violation of the Federal Records and Presidential Records acts.

This is why I’m worried about my Iranian foreign students, and they’re very scared as well.. I think they’re all going to be rounded up or something if shrub decides to start his third dream war

One of my golf buddies has a wife who lived in the Japanese camps. Very interesting stories. I don’t know how she has kept from being in continuous rage all these years- but she has.

I remember the fights I got into at school after my mother, grandmother and me moved to Cali from Oklahoma when I was a smaller kiddo. At least two or three a year as a result of someone calling me an ‘okie’ in not a nice way.

rwcole @ 136

One of my golf buddies has a wife who lived in the Japanese camps. Very interesting stories. I don’t know how she has kept from being in continuous rage all these years- but she has.

In 7th grade we read “Farewell to Manzanar” which was written by a woman who lived in one of the camps when she was a kid.

Blub @ 135

This is why I’m worried about my Iranian foreign students, and they’re very scared as well.. I think they’re all going to be rounded up or something if shrub decides to start his third dream war

No! Darth’s Pipe Dream!!! ;-)

The story of the japanese is particulary interesting given what the germans were doing in THEIR camps–somehow the govt had to get people worked up about nazi imprisonment while ignoring what WE were doing. Neat trick.

I’ve got the Darth movie lyin here. Anyone seen it? Any good?

Where do we learn to do bigotry? From our parents usually.

“from our parents”

I suppose- but we may be born to it as well. Banding up against the “other” is a human trait.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 142

Where do we learn to do bigotry? From our parents usually.

It’s hard wired i think. We were originally clan-based/tribal in social organization. And we relied on the clan to survive.

rwcole @ 143

“from our parents”

I suppose- but we may be born to it as well. Banding up against the “other” is a human trait.

I think racism is learned.

Like dogs in a pack. Perhaps it’s why we get along so well with canines.

Sorry – i meant to add – we need to learn to not be racist – racism comes naturally.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 145

rwcole @ 143

“from our parents”

I suppose- but we may be born to it as well. Banding up against the “other” is a human trait.

I think racism is learned.

And the GOP is giving lessons.

rwcole @ 143

“from our parents”

I suppose- but we may be born to it as well. Banding up against the “other” is a human trait.

I dunno about that. I think a lot of evidence from studies suggest that little kids don’t really recognize color-based racial differences, or at least reognize them as being of significance… they do recognize age and gender. I blame the parents. And the rethugs. And parents who are rethugs.

kiddo

Could be. Hard to test that either way.

rwcole @ 146

Like dogs in a pack. Perhaps it’s why we get along so well with canines.

Thank you. Perfect analogy.

Right now, in this country, it’s all about a group of ruling thugs who’ve been exploiting our fears of “difference” in every way possible in order to amass ever more power.

Guys who were in WW2 said that life never again seemed so full and eventful once the war was over. They mourned the war- mostly the feeling of being out there in a “pack” (my word) with their buddies. (Studs Turkle).

Many feel it in high school- running with a pack of guys willing to protect each other from the “other”. It’s the heart of gangs and gang violence- and perhaps war.

Racism is evil. I do not think that humans are born evil. It’s the classic argument. Conservative philosophy teaches we were born evil. Liberalism instructs we are taught evil.

I hope Althespook is okay. He hasn’t posted since September 24th.

I’ll regret the reaction to this post, but as I have lived in Irving and live in North Texas, the reports I’ve heard locally are that they either were convicted of crimes previous, had outstanding warrants or had been ordered deported during the catch and release days pre ICE. Spin it the way you want but I hope Irving PD keeps up the good work. All three auto accidents I’ve been involved in were caused by illegals DUI with no insurance and D.L.
Is this supposed to be a good thing?

Illegals in Calfornia can often be detected because they tend to drive at half the speed limit to keep from bein stopped.

It’s not just race/ethnicity. I lived in a neighborhood that had a house for retarded adults. It had been there for at least 50 years and no one in this area took notice. In the past year a friend of mine had someone come to her home with a petition against establishing a similar home in her neighborhood. There were neighborhood meetings and outcries and general craziness. What they were afraid of, I couldn’t guess.
End of story….the house was transformed into a home for retarded adults and I’m sure that all those who worked so hard to prevent it feel foolish.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 154

Racism is evil. I do not think that humans are born evil. It’s the classic argument. Conservative philosophy teaches we were born evil. Liberalism instructs we are taught evil.

I’m not talking about evil. I’m talking about an aspect of human nature that no longer serves us in the kind of world we now inhabit.

Loo Hoo. @ 155

I hope Althespook is okay. He hasn’t posted since September 24th.

Ah, my dear! Not so…….

http://spookinthemachine.blogs…..arget.html

I’m not sure if “nature or nurture” is really an empirical question. It’s not clear what evidence would decide it- thus according to one way of looking at the world it’s a senseless question.

Loo Hoo. @ 155

I hope Althespook is okay. He hasn’t posted since September 24th.

A couple of times since then.

rwcole @ 129

And they are white and look just like the people who were mistreating them.

Except for the hair on their palms of course.

I’m an English/Scotch/Irish white guy and I’m here to tell you – white men have caused me trouble in five minutes than minorities have my whole life.

Racism is just one skin of the onion. The ruling class would prefer to oppress an easily identifiable ‘other,’ but when push comes to shove (and it has arrived in all it’s glory here in the US of A), the elite will crucify folks that look just like them if they are a threat to the status quo.

I mean, Hitler started out on the Jews, gypsies and gays (and had widespread support), but he ended up executing anybody who looked cross-ways at him, even if they were of good Aryan stock.

If this dynamic sounds familiar, it ain’t coincidence.

diogenes

Blacks claim that White Guys are the most dangerous cause they don’t give any warning when they’re about to blow.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 102

diogenes @ 97

Did the Gestapo say what his probable cause was for stopping you, or was driving with dark skin sufficient?

Waaay back in the day, I took a cop quickie course (I was fire and rescue, and the course was in aid of better interdepartmental cooperation)and the cop instructor drilled it into us – the Constitution says cops must have probable cause to stop a citizen.

Quaint, I realize – how far we have fallen.

The PC was that I did not give a lane change signal. And I got a citation.

Ahhhh, a standard ploy. He can’t prove you didn’t, and you can’t prove you did.

In a better world, judges would ream out cops who wasted court time with such chickenshit charges. It happens, but nowhere near enough.

I don’t know about you all, but my parents were not all that liberal about racial issues. Not actually racist, but very typical of people their age. So, why do some fight the racism of their parents and others embrace it.

rwcole @ 101

Of course immigrants pay taxes. It’s pure ignorance to say otherwise.

They pay sales taxes. If they rent, they pay property taxes (indirectly). They pay PAYROLL taxes into accounts that aren’t really theirs- so they can never collect on what they put in.

Some may go to emergency rooms and walk the check- but most are afraid to do that- so they go to “DOC IN A BOX”

Illegal immigrants. ILLEGAL immigrants.

They shop at businesses owned by their own culture (who knows where those taxes go, and we KNOW businesses pay off lots of people, ALL businesses, regardless of culture).

They rent, likely from people of their own culture. Again, who KNOWS what taxes are or are not collected from those owners.

They get paid, MAYBE taxes are taken out, but most employers who HIRE illegals run two books and or have some OTHER means of disguising the payroll . . . so I’m pretty much not buying THAT line (I worked in restaurants, and then in construction, I’ve seen it all done).

And illegals will either use their own medicine folks and pay cash or barter and in the worst case, will use ER services or the Doc IN A Box you refer to. And it’s the taxes of the legal citizens who pay for that care.

I don’t usually make statements of ignorance hoss. Either I’ve EXPERIENCED and SEEN what I post about, or, I’ve read it and would produce links . . . this is kind of a free for all personal opinion thread, so, I’ve NOT chased links.

But my personal experiences back my statements. And I am NOT a wealthy elitist, nor a meth using white trailer trash punk.

I’ve lived in the middle and lower middle class most of my life. I’ve worked along side all KINDS of people from multiple cultures.

I was raised by liberal and progressive parents and I grew up in SE Asia in multiple cultures.

I’m fairly well educated . . . and I spent 5 years as a token white guy with Spanish Language Radio in Sacramento . . . not to mention 20 years in the food biz working with mostly Hispanics of varying central and south american country’s. Many of whom invited me and my wife to visit them in their country, because they liked us because we worked with them and didnt’ give them shit and fought for them at times, on the job.

I don’t do ignorance well, hoss. I’m rather opposed to it, for that matter.

My spelling may suffer, I don’t DO spell check.
I might get a name wrong, or confuse an issue. But I don’t do ignorance.

Nor do I profess to be smug enuff to think, others might be ignorant.

But I appreciate your attempt to move the conversation back to the racist ignorant thing, instead of addressing the economic thing, from where racism and its ilk comes from.

Power, wealth, control.

Racism is a tool to manipulate. Once you buy INTO that, you are easily manipulated by either side. It becomes a really narrow viewpoint.

Does racism exist? Sure, cuz people of power EXPLOIT IT!!! And substantiante it, and legislate it. All OVER the world. White people in the USA got NOTHING in terms of owning the race card.

Use the Marxist lens . . . it’s a much wider view. Hoss.

solai @ 166

I don’t know about you all, but my parents were not all that liberal about racial issues. Not actually racist, but very typical of people their age. So, why do some fight the racism of their parents and others embrace it.

Education, travel, the kind of company you keep, personal experiences, personality/temperament – all kinds of stuff – though still it is a mystery to some extent.

eCAHNomics @ 111

Or seal the border. Period. No exceptions.

Exactly how would that be done?

Oh, so you caught my snark? *G*

Only one way. Extreme violence. And prejudice.

It’s a lose lose scenerio, IMHO . . I was using extremes to analogize. Although, the OTHER extreme is more doable than sealing the border is. And one I prefer.

I don’t FEAR the migra’s, legal of not, of any country. There’s a statue in New York Harbor I kind of admire, still.

MY gripe is with the system and the concentration of the wealth, which is used to control and manipulate the masses. By using racism, as one of its tools, to do so . . .

We are an Empire, and empires fail because they subjugate the masses to the empire, be they domestic or foreign masses, be the subjugation done on domestic soil, or on foreign soil . . .

rwcole @ 164

diogenes

Blacks claim that White Guys are the most dangerous cause they don’t give any warning when they’re about to blow.

I think that’s because our culture expects white guys to be masters of the universe. Most of us never get there (I opted out early on), leading to quite a bit of tension between reality and expectations. Who knows when and where the pressure will blow?

Sadly, blacks know they are playing into a stacked deck from the get, and don’t buy into it.

OTOH, I believe the associated frustration with being black – denied dignity or fair play – partially accounts for the fact black men have a far lower life expectancy than whites.

I’d love to be a fly on the wall when our ‘Christian’ president stands before the Lord in judgment and tries to explain what he did for the “…least among us.”

SnarKassandra @ 119

People can be pretty stupid sometimes. Why is it hard to just like people if they are nice and ignore them if they are not? What does it matter what color they are or where their grandma was born?

It often doesn’t matter, to the lay folks. Or to the worker bee’s.

But the powers that be spin it, and sell it, to manipulate labor, to create their wealth, to consolidate their wealth, and to expand their wealth.

THEY create the hate, and foster the fear that racism is borne of. They do it by making people think, them brown or black or yellow or white one’s, want your stuff.

And from there, it’s easy to make people hate and fight and do bad things. Like pass bad legislation and put nooses in trees.

And lemme make myself clear, ALL races, and all empires, and all countries do and have done this. What the Japanese did to the Chinese in WW2 and pre WW2 is one more RECENT example.

What the North Vietnamese did to the South Vietnamese in the sturggle for Vietnam is another example. Both before, during and after the US presence.

Africa is FULL of racial based bigotry among non whites that has slaughtered many an African. Hutu and Tutsi come to mind.

Genocides of all types, are a means of power, control, and consolidation of wealth and power.

I apologize if I stepped into your discussion with others in here about this issue . . .

And I guess I should echo MY thanks to Mz. Marisa for the thread . . . I did NOT meant to not legitimize it, or diminish it. Or the racism that exists.

BTW, in case you didn’t catch my request last night (think you had to turn in before I posted it), I’d be greatly obligated if you’d let Al The Spook know Larue misses him, his postings, and the capability to respond to him on his blogs.

He’s a hoss, and one I admire and respect a lot. Plus, he’s FUN to game with!!! *G*

And if ya don’t mind my saying, you seem to be growing in YOUR progressive snarkiness in all the good ways, too, as I watch your postings day by day. You got good family, to bring you along.

Good on ya, and good on your family!

It’s always a ray of hope you and Betsy seem to shine on us middle aged boomers, who are SO despondant with things as they are . . . we never thought they’d be like this . . . I honestly didn’t . . . and I know, it’s cuz I was sleeping.

Be ever vigilant, if we old folks can offer anything to you younger folks in yer teens . . . never fall asleep . . . always be wary.

Question everything, all the time (that don’t mean you have to voice it, just question if, and make good decisions after).

And of course, be well learned, be well read, and be informed as much as time permits.

FDL and the blogosphere and the internet is like taking night classes . . . it’s a part of the learning and being informed . . . we are all lucky for that. Especially in these days, in OUR country.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 145

. . . I think racism is learned.

Yes. *G*

And tolerance is taught, and learned, too.

The parental upbringing is huge, but after that, the societal socialization kicks in . . .

Life in a singular culture can be narrowing.

Life in multiple cultures can be enlightening.

But it all can go to hell depending on what happens to you, and how the individual reacts to life.

I have MORE hope in humans for the most part, but, less hope in those who have never left their own culture . .

. . be it in their minds and education, or in their travels and wanderings.

Open is good. Closed is doom. Adapt of die.

See dinosaur/meteor analogy . . *G*

rwcole @ 157

Illegals in Calfornia can often be detected because they tend to drive at half the speed limit to keep from bein stopped.

Geez, hoss, so did us pot smokers when we were young. Old trucks, slow lane, 55 and STRAIGHT!

Yer analogy is killin me . . . *G* EJOLE!!!

diogenes @ 163

. . . I’m an English/Scotch/Irish white guy and I’m here to tell you – white men have caused me trouble in five minutes than minorities have my whole life.

Racism is just one skin of the onion. The ruling class would prefer to oppress an easily identifiable ‘other,’ but when push comes to shove (and it has arrived in all it’s glory here in the US of A), the elite will crucify folks that look just like them if they are a threat to the status quo.

I mean, Hitler started out on the Jews, gypsies and gays (and had widespread support), but he ended up executing anybody who looked cross-ways at him, even if they were of good Aryan stock.

If this dynamic sounds familiar, it ain’t coincidence.

Yer lantern shines brightly, Wanderer. Nicely lit!!! *G*

eCAHNomics @ 12

The whole immigration issue is about racism. Why Americans find people with brown skins threatening is a mystery to me, …

Well, they’re obviously right to be scared of the dangerous brown people. After all, don’t the brown people come from a different culture, a different background? I mean, the light-skinned Mexicans come from Europe and the White Americans come from … uh, er, over there. Well, uh, there is the religious side. You know they’re different — they’re Catholic and the Christians get real upset about THAT. It’s dangerous to let people who are THAT different mingle with the “good” White American Christians who watch sitcoms and know everything.

Clearly the racists were just taught to be that way by their racist parents. It’s inexplicable.

But, the one thing that’s clear is the Conservative Bush Republicans aren’t uplifting leaders for America — nope, they drag us through this racism crap every time they think it will give them political advantage.

Geez, I hope Rahm Emanuel feels okay with delaying immigration reform so we have to go through all this garbage.

eCAHNomics @ 19

Peterr @ 15

Now what would the police of Irving do, if a couple thousand Spanish-speaking US citizens came to town for a visit? Not as a march, but just in ones and twos and fours, coming through Irving at all times of day, all on the same day.
…

Clever, but where would you find the brown people to subject themselves to such treatment in the current U.S. environment?

We had something like 250,000 people in Washington to protest the Iraq war and the press didn’t report it, so what makes you think anything that happens in Irving would be reported by that damned Liberal press?

eCAHNomics @ 56

Fern @ 53
…
Much easier for the terrorists to come across the Canadian border than the Mexican border. Many Muslims in Canada & less scrutiny at the border.

It’s obviously not about protecting Americans from dangerous terrorists or harmless brown skinned people.

They’re either keeping an eye on the terrorists or they employ the terrorists or there are no terrorists. Anyway, they don’t worry about those guys. Who knows maybe they want terrorists to come through after the next Dem is elected. That’s about their speed.

Don’t forget the ‘93 WTC attack happened early in Clinton’s admin. along with Waco. They do love to leave a flaming pile of crap on the doorstep. Nothing like that to say ‘welcome to the neighborhood’.

They’re probably going to claim these illegal immigrants are voting for Democratic candidates. Then they can try to suppress the Dem vote in the southern border states where they’re worried about New Mexico, Arizona and California.

Who knows, if they’re creative, they might even try to rig electronic voting machines to steal the vote. But, are they brazen enough to do something radical like that? They love to provide an explanation before they do something outrageous. That way it appears things happened naturally and it wasn’t just their criminal activities.

Mad Dogs @ 69

Another superb post Marisa about the descent into hell that this country is being taken!

Also, I know this is OT, but it too seems to epitomize that same “descent into hell” you write about – From the NYT:

When the Justice Department publicly declared torture “abhorrent” in a legal opinion in December 2004, the Bush administration appeared to have abandoned its assertion of nearly unlimited presidential authority to order brutal interrogations.

But soon after Alberto R. Gonzales’s arrival as attorney general in February 2005, the Justice Department issued another opinion, this one in secret. It was a very different document, according to officials briefed on it, an expansive endorsement of the harshest interrogation techniques ever used by the Central Intelligence Agency.

The new opinion, the officials said, for the first time provided explicit authorization to barrage terror suspects with a combination of painful physical and psychological tactics, including head-slapping, simulated drowning and frigid temperatures.

Mr. Gonzales approved the legal memorandum on “combined effects” over the objections of James B. Comey, the deputy attorney general, who was leaving his job after bruising clashes with the White House. Disagreeing with what he viewed as the opinion’s overreaching legal reasoning, Mr. Comey told colleagues at the department that they would all be “ashamed” when the world eventually learned of it.

(My bold)

This is a 6 page long article and is the lead story running at the New York Times. Read it and weep.

How is it possible we have so many fascist pigs in this country and who is running the show that pays them and puts these plans into motion? It certainly can’t be Dumbya all by his lonesome.

rwcole @ 124

In the case of France- the immigrant issue stems from the days of empire. In the case of germany it stems from the liquidation of the work force during WW2- workers were needed.

Here in America we have a peculiar situation — we’re going to NEED immigrants to grow our economy. The Rich people who have advisers must know this, but they continue to let the fascists fight immigration.

We gained a lot of productivity from small computers, but what’s our next advance in productivity going to come from?

If our economy gets going fast it will cause employees to demand higher wages. When there’s more cash floating around retailers will demand higher prices. What will hold down incomes and prices?

Immigrants will generally work for less and perhaps demand less in terms of standard of living. These both work to ease pressure on price and wage inflation.

So, what’s Rahm Emanuel’s solution: hold off on doing anything until we get more immigrants coming in as Dems, thus making political gains. Pathetic. govern Rahm govern.

We gained a lot from early 20th century immigration and it might happen again.

Tyranny in government as forewarned by our founders, is the reason for the second amendment, period. Does not matter if you are in Burma or Texas, fascism is societal cancer.
Brownshirts in Irving Texas…………

MarkH @ 178

Mad Dogs @ 69

Another superb post Marisa about the descent into hell that this country is being taken!

Also, I know this is OT, but it too seems to epitomize that same “descent into hell” you write about – From the NYT:

(My bold)

This is a 6 page long article and is the lead story running at the New York Times. Read it and weep.

How is it possible we have so many fascist pigs in this country and who is running the show that pays them and puts these plans into motion? It certainly can’t be Dumbya all by his lonesome.

Because Americans are to lazy to put it all on the line! Everyday I fight for what is right, in my mind and suffer the ridiculed, and isolation from people who are candidates for Vi*gra. Free speech is not without consequence. Even if you are on point!

Natural Selection Corporate Treason and “Executive Oil.”

(MOD NOTE *edited to clear spam filters)

Your comment is awaiting moderation. (?)

James Joyce @ 182

Your comment is awaiting moderation. (?)

Your comment was caught in the spam filters for including a brand name prescription drug. I freed it and if you do a hard refresh of the page, it is the comment just above your question.

Suzanne @ 183

James Joyce @ 182

Your comment is awaiting moderation. (?)

Your comment was caught in the spam filters for including a brand name prescription drug. I freed it and if you do a hard refresh of the page, it is the comment just above your question.

Thanks for the explanation Sue. Will use asterisks in the future!

Hate kills spiritually and physically. Will mankind ever cure himself of this disease. The Republicans strive on hate? Beyonce Welch – Americans Turn to Love – PLEASE !

These days, the Dallas, Texas suburb is looking like the proverbial speed trap for undocumented immigrants. It’s one thing for undocumented immigrants to be caught behind the wheel of a car since in Texas they can’t qualify to have a driver’s license but to be taken into custody for enjoying a barbecue?
If that barbecue is in violation of a city ordinace against alcohol in a public park. It is called laws people.