First Hillary voted for the godawful Kyl-Lieberman Amendment, claiming that classifying Iran’s Revolutionary Guard as a terrorist organization somehow “reaffirms [her] policy of engagement” and “robust diplomacy”(!). Now she’s co-sponsoring the Webb Amendment, which purports to require congressional approval before Bush can attack Iran. But:
[I]t allows the following exceptions: First, military operations or activities that would directly repel an attack launched from within the territory of Iran. Second, those activities that would directly thwart an imminent attack that would be launched from Iran. Third, military operations or activities that would be in hot pursuit of forces engaged outside the territory of Iran who thereafter would enter Iran.
Those look like some pretty big exceptions to me, especially considering Seymour Hersh’s latest missive in the New Yorker:
[T]wo former senior officials of the C.I.A. told me that, by late summer, the agency had increased the size and the authority of the Iranian Operations Group… “They’re moving everybody to the Iran desk,” one recently retired C.I.A. official said. “They’re dragging in a lot of analysts and ramping up everything. It’s just like the fall of 2002”—the months before the invasion of Iraq, when the Iraqi Operations Group became the most important in the agency.
(Mmm… stovepipe stuffing…) There’s no way all those analysts might be pressured to find evidence of an imminent attack, right? I mean, it’s not like the Bush administration would ever politicize intelligence.
So, basically, Hillary backs a bill that affirms what is already codified in the Constitution, and then pokes it with loopholes big enough to drive armored columns through. I just can’t see how offering Dubya exemptions from the Constitution is supposed to be a good idea – at least make him use a signing statement or something.
This sounds an awful lot like the AUMF all over again, where Hillary and the other Democrats who voted for it believed (supposedly) that Dubya would act in good faith, despite all evidence to the contrary. But this time the Democrats are actually punking themselves, knowing full well what happened the last time.
If Webb and Clinton have any sense they’ll take the exceptions out of the bill, in which case I can wholeheartedly support it, even though it’s more symbolic than anything else. (”Democratic bill says Constitution still relevant!”) It would probably go down in flames, but at least the Republicans and Bush Dogs would be forced to declare their undying love for war.
If they decide to leave the exceptions in, then we’re entitled to a really good explanation of what purpose they serve. We already know that Congress is perfectly capable of rocketing Really Bad Ideas through both houses just on the president’s say-so. And if the Democrats have doubts about rushing into something so momentous, they can just insert a sunset clause so the war expires in six months.
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zed?
Hmmm. Should I get started on HRC tonight? Well lets see how things go.
I smell a rat.
Eli !!
Laura Doty @ 3
They’re either complicit or stupid.
Hi Eli!
great post
Hiya, Teddy!
Hi Elliott! Thanks!
Eli @ 5
Neither of them are stupid. And we’ve seen evidence from both of complicity.
I appreciate your explanations of what’s good and about the bill and what’s not.
Why, oh why, is the Democratic “frontrunner” leaping to provide this Preznit with new warmaking powers? There should be no reason for this legislation, and if passed, there should certainly be no exceptions in it.
Hiya Eli.
Why didn’t the other news sources say there were gigantic exceptions?
Is it the air inside the beltway that warps all these “brains”? Something in the water? Do they pass through some type of force field? What? What is it that causes these individuals to become so totally brain dead and zombie-fied when they are exposed to DeeCee for extended periods?
Inquiring minds want to know so that an antidote may be prepared and provided.
TeddySanFran @ 11
And why oh why did she vote for Lieberman/Kyl?
Laura Doty @ 14
why did anyone?
Laura Doty @ 9
Yeah, that’s kinda my thinking, too. I think some of the other Democrats are, though.
I just can’t see what the upside is. I guess they want to be able to say they passed something, and I’m sure they can find some Republicans who can bring themselves to vote for increasing Dubya’s warmaking authority…
Laura Doty @ 3
It squints toward militarism.
EvilDrPuma @ 17
I think it’s more of a goose-step.
SnarKassandra @ 12
Well, they kinda suck, as I may have mentioned on occasion.
TeddySanFran @ 11
Winning over his base will guarantee her the Presidency … she prolly thinks the Dem nomination is all sewn up …
Now is the time for supporters of Hillary’s stance on Iraq and Iran to lay out the case. I’m listening.
Rat, goose, it’s a godd*mn Animal Farm.
Teddy SF please close your eyes.
EDP, why say “squint” about moving and not closing eyes?
I actually did meet someone Friday night who supports Hillary, surprised me. Only one I can think of that I know.
Elliott @ 24
Loo Hoo does.
Around 65% of Americans want an end to the Iraq occupation. And most voters don’t want war with Iran. Yet Hillary is poised to be the next prez. I simply don’t get it.
Petrocelli @ 20
Her husband has always said not to look beyond the election right in front of you. Does she know the primary’s still in front of her, and how fragile her “frontrunner” status is? A loss in Iowa and a loss in NH may not leave her room to recover in Florida and other Big Tuesday states.
But I’m sure she’s thought this all through, or paid people to do so for her.
I wonder if the pantsuit geeks owners would rather she support the murder of Arabs or Persians for Israel?
Thank you for highlighting this Eli. I’ve been wondering all day what HRC was up to. Little good, it appears.
(I’m running to the dojo to wage peace. Be well everyone).
SnarKassandra @ 25
then that’s two
Hi Cassie!
SnarKassandra @ 23
I was paraphrasing one of the founding fathers who had said of the office of the presidency as described in the Constitution, “I smell a rat. It squints toward monarchy.” Now if I could just remember who it was who said that….
Elliott @ 24
I think there are actually a lot of people who support her, for various reasons. She’s got name recognition, White House sort-of-experience, most people agree that the country was a lot better under Bill, and she’s got the kind of organizational muscle and toughness that people think will make her a good campaigner.
I still think she’s pretty rubbish, though.
TeddySanFran @ 27
I don’t know how Daou can stand it.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 21
Okay OK, here goes nothing … HRC wins the Presidency and retains all of Bush’s Executive powers.
Then she invites Malliki & Ahmedinajad to the Oval office where Bill awaits with a lit Cigar … *g*
Shorter Hillary: “Make Love Not War … show ‘em how, Bill !” *g*
Eli @ 32
I notice a conspicuous absence of the phrases “correct priorities” or “good policy ideas.”
Teddy SF. Another question. I was listening to Olbermann and the other host, the rupub guy, kept talking about “the Clinton’s” and “they” like they were both running. Why? Cause repubs hate BILL Clinton so much?
I don’t understand this business of designating Iran’s Revolutionary Guard a terrorist organization AT ALL. Show us some proof.
Hillary would triangulate with the devil.
HRC is constantly reminding us that her eight years as First Lady is a strong qualifier for her to be prez. By that logic, Laura Bush should perhaps be president.
EvilDrPuma @ 35
Yes, you do.
Eli @ 32
I agree, she’s just more of the same old same old. Too much Corporate Support.
Hugh @ 38
Would and has.
TeddySanFran @ 27
She has an unfair advantage over Obama & Edwards in that the Right and their MSM b*tches are actively supporting her bid for the nomination …
So is Hillary getting more money from real dems or from crossed over repub-like-dems?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 39
This is something that’s bugged me for a while. Is it really legitimate to claim First Ladyhood as White House experience? Was she as clued in as Algore or any other senior official, or have commensurate responsibilities? The former maybe, but the latter I doubt.
Take that away, and you’re left with a one-and-a-third-term triangulating senator.
SnarKassandra @ 44
Don’t forget corporations.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 38
They played very different roles.
C’mon, kiddo.
I know you great with the one-line snarks, but, I also remember you winced when M. Dowd snarked big time.
Am I right, or am I wrong?
c
SnarKassandra @ 44
she is sure to be getting some hedge funds.
Maybe I’m missing something here, but isn’t the Webb amendment a step in the right direction? Aren’t we looking for Congress to make a statement opposing war with Iran? And if we are trying to do that, shouldn’t responsible and realistic legislation include exceptions for retaliation in the event of an attack? I know we’ve all become skeptical of any claims by the Bush Administration, but I expect that’s not what Webb is including the language for. He’s a veteran who knows that there are times that a government has to respond.
The Snuke!!!111
SnarKassandra @ 35
My guess would be that what woman can think for themselves?? Bill must be feeding the little woman. Nope – she wears the pants in the family!!
EvilDrPuma @ 46
I think Hillary is the candidate for the fiscal conservatives who are fed up with the Republicans but don’t want business to be reined in too much.
I think much of the over-aggressive stance toward Iran is due to the lobby that allegedly help author that amendment…money is power, yes?
twȝk @ 50
happy almost birthday
Oh great. As if Hillary weren’t enough we’ve got tornado warnings here in the alley for Kiowa, Wichita and Commanche Counties. So far no rotations. Major lightning, thunder and a bit of hail so far. It’s hot and humid.
Eli @ 52
I agree, they look at her as someone they can “work with”
Elliott @ 53
Stop that! 707!
Good catch, Eli.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss?
Jill @ 49
I’m Canadian, please help me understand how a non- binding resolution impacts BushCo ?
Jill @ 49
This bill would take us from a status quo where the president *already* requires congressional approval to start a war, to one where Congress explicitly states that he can start a war without them if certain conditions are met.
Conditions that a thoroughly dishonest president can simply declare he’s met, and head right off to war with no further interference.
It’s a trojan horse.
demi @ 46
I don’t like Dowd either. ;0)
Oklahoma kiddo @ 55
Stay safe!!! We’ve had tornado warnings for the last 3 hours. Started in Mahaska Co and headed NE to Johnson and Cedar Cos.
Petrocelli @ 58
It a bloviator regenerator!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 54
omg, kiddo. don’t tell me the weather goddess is connected to your comments.
maybe a lovely dinner by the pool and a game of Lahoma beating you at gin will lighten things up a beat?
Plz say Hey! to your sweet Lahoma for me.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 54
You got a cellar, OKK?
okk,
whoops, big time.
do not have dinner outside.
candles and gin rummy in the basement.
i do love reading about what a great thing you two have.
cheers to the two of you!
OK kiddo,
I drug those windmills up into those Witchita mountains down there.
They wuz heavy and I spun my tires a lot.
newtonusr @ 65
Yep. We sure do. Used it twice last spring. ;0)
Eli @ 45
Well, there were certainly some things going on in (or just off of) the Oval Office that she didn’t know about.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 68
hope you don’t need it tonight to protect your from wind rotations.
It does sound a lot like AUMF all over. Hillary can’t even apologize now without looking like a hypocrite because she just voted for something thats given Chimpy (according to NPR) the signal that he can “precision target” the Iranian national guard. Chimp is the terrorist.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 67
The must have shelter!
I see, the Party of the Least Worst will triangulate, and equivocate, before unleashing Guernica-like horrors on the innocent population of a country that our feistiest little middle eastern “ally” is afraid of.
But it’s ok to support them, with money and votes, because they might appoint a supreme court justice who is right of center, rather than a raving crypto-fascist.
unbeleivable. Is opposition to the horrors of war just a wedge issue to use against the (R) team?
Because if someone is sincerely opposed to further nightmares in the middle east, that will almost certainly result in severe blowback, then HRC, and probably Obama, are beyond the pale.
Jill @ 49
These exceptions already exist. There’s no reason to remind Cheney what they are by re-legislating them. Just tell Cheney and his boss NO IRAN WAR.
mui @ 71
no joking matter, yet one is compelled to cue the image of W, riding on a bomb a la Dr. Strangelove: “Adios, YoU M*tha-F*ckas!”
Have to go. But I’m surprised Olbermann didn’t bring up Blackwater’s 1/3 (just a handful according to Prince) non-American fighting force (including of Pinochet’s good ol boys) tonight, along with sundry other war criminals and Budapest job fairs for ex-genocidal Serbians.
Petrocelli @ 59
It doesn’t – but I think Webb is doing the best with what he’s got. They can’t block funds for the war he hasn’t started yet. And the spineless Congress has refused to block funds for the one he has. But all I’m saying is that it’s an expression of something more consistent with progressive values of avoiding war in Iran than inconsistent.
Take care OKK and Lahoma!
punaise @ 75
707 !!!
Bon soir, punaise !
Late to thread -
Wow OK and christine, I hope
everything’s OKyou’all are safe.Great post, Eli.
Observant, incisive, prescient.
Gee – and now we have a big base 5 miles from the Iran border.
Outpost Gleiwitz.
They voted for war with Iran – and they know it.
I asked this earlier today, and I’m interested in all your opinions.
If Bush bombs Iran will he do it
1) before the election?
2) after the election?
3) right after New Year’s 2009?
4) other ____________
A “friend” of mine was trying to pitch Hillary to me, via email. Wrote back saying I would never ever vote for her. etc. etc. added that she is a major triangulator.
Got the “nicest” email back, in Southern speak:
“Oh my, I’ve just learned a new word: triangulator”
Case closed.
Jill @ 77
Here’s a more likely scenario … Webb’s amendment is defeated and BushCo announces
that the defeat means they have every right to wage war with Iran …
It’s all one war — Bush’s War on Terror. Now that the Senate has designated a branch of the Iranian government an agent of terror, it’s all over.
There’s no point to Webb’s amendment, except that he may plan to challenge President Clinton in the 2012 primaries on an anti-war platform.
Elliott @ 81
two days before the democrats have a convention or a big primary
TeddySanFran @ 11
Because she’s in on the con, waiting for her turn.
‘Always heed the cor-por-ate…’
EvilDrPuma @ 46
I don’t know if this issue has ever been raised here, but ask yourself:
Why did HRC chose to run for the Senate in NY instead of AR?
Arkansas was the state of her residence for many years. New York? Never lived there before her run.
Hmmm…then why New York?
Hint – Follow the money!
And back to Eli’s post, another question:
Why does HRC reflexively vote for anything that takes a hard stand against Muslim countries (Iraq AUMF, Kyl/Lieberman resolution, and now the Webb amendment)?
Hint – Follow the money!
Yup, that’s right! The very same money folks.
Valley Girl @ 82
Get out!
she really said that, “I’ve just learned a new word” !?
mui @ 76
exactly, mui!
and, to that end, my latest
“nightly nolo” touches on two
of the toughest (nigh unanswerable)
questions asked at today’s hearing — one
from rep. elijah cummings; the other from
rep. jan schakowsky — all in under two
minutes of edited video — do take a look!
Eli @ 44
I’ve never disagreed with you before, Eli, but putting Hillary Clinton in the same camp with Lauraugh is really not fair.
Petrocelli @ 83
I guess the only difference is whether he has to have the CIA cook up a phony impending attack…
SnarKassandra @ 85
I can see the thinking on that, yes…
Elliott @ 88
Absolutely! That was the only funny thing about our email exchange. And, trust me, I’ve known her for quite some time, and she does not do snark. (or get snark, I think)
Loo Hoo. @ 90
Believe me, I don’t. Laura’s just as much of a lightweight as her hubby. But I don’t think being First Lady, even an unusually involved First Lady, actually qualifies you to be president.
yeah, but she’s not stupid.
if she can get bush to make the attack, then she can have her war and blame it all on bush (just like she did and does with iraq)
Eli @ 52
Hillary is both the dem nominee most likely to lose the general election AND if she wins, the dem president most likely to align with Republican policies/aims. Win-win for the republicans.
Petrocelli@83 -
I agree the whole vote may be used in some twisted, Orwellian way. But the title of this entry was “Hillary Supports War With Iran” and I don’t think the argument about the exceptions to the Webb amendment support that.
Loo Hoo. @ 89
Hey, Loo Hoo,
Excuse me, but when did you think being on FLD at this time of day was going to give you Fair responses?
My experience is that it’s pretty cantakerous.
Is that a word?
I mean, Fucking Cranky?
And, you now what that does for folks.
Fern @ 96
Yep, I’m pretty sure I’ve said the same thing. And being hated by *both* bases is a pretty neat trick.
Valley Girl @ 93
I’m gobsmacked!
lmao!
nolo @ 89
great work! saved to my YouTube favorites (may I use this atop an FDL Late Sunday Nite sometime?)
Jill @ 97
“Hillary Facilitates War With Iran”?
Eli @ 99
Well, so much for my shiny new thought.
Eli @ 102
The first vote, yes. But is that how you interpret the second vote? If anything, I see it as “Hillary panders again.”
kirk murphy @ 80
One minor correction Kirk (and you rarely ever need any *g*).
It really is going to be a very small base with about 200 US servicemembers.
The “idea” is to “bait” the Iranians with it, but not to risk mucho US troops as the bait.
I would guess that the US troops stationed there ain’t all that appreciative of being the bait in the trap, but orders is orders.
I just do not see how any SANE person could possibly think attacking Iran w/could work out for us.
PARTICULARLY at this time.
but that’s just me.
Excuse me, but when did you think being on FLD at this time of day was going to give you Fair responses?
My experience is that it’s pretty cantakerous.
Is that a word?
I mean, Fucking Cranky?
And, you now what that does for folks.
Like it’s different at other times.
HRC will say and do whatever to win the WH – and if she wins there will be no change b/c she’ll be beholden to the same operatives thats running tings now….soooo duck you suckers to coin an old phrase….
Jill @ 104
Pandering would be sponsoring a bill’s simply toothless and pretending it’s a triumph. This one is more like giving Dubya political cover to start a war without any help from Congress.
Hillary’s argument about her Iraq War vote is that she never imagined the Preznit would use it to go to war. How does she expect to vote for K/L and Webb without having to make the same excuse when W goes to war on Iran?
Eli’s right. She wants her war, without starting it. She’s lots more like Dick Nixon than she’ll ever admit to herself. I wonder if she has a Secret Plan to get us outta the middle east.
TeddySanFran @ 101
thanks, and you KNOW i would be honored!
p e a c e
Fern @ 103
You know Fern, if you thought it up your own self, it doesn’t matter if someone else thought the same thing, too. It was still your original thought.
(of course, this doesn’t count at the patent office.)
raven @ 106
Elliott @ 112
Sorry, Fern.
*hangs head sheepishly*
Teddy SF. There is a boy at school running for homecoming queen.
You’re right, demi. And I know TRex could come up with a perfect word for this condition…
No vote for HRC in primaries.
Are there any leaders in Dems who will run the counter-theme that Bush lies, always, and that Iraq is being cued up for the 2008 wave-the-flag-vote-for-the-GOP-my-country-right-or-wrong campaign?
demi @ 113
Is there a reply in here?
oh, fine. great time for my comment to be flown off to the ether.
I said,
No. It’s not Always Cranky here. Or, I wouldn’t swing by for a visit.
No one can take cranky All The Fucking Time.
Not any group I want to be a part of, anyways.
Candle.
Hope.
Tolerance.
Somewhere?
Eli @ 98
Most hated and most marketed all at the same time!
Elliott @ 81
I posted March 2008 as the likely timeframe several weeks ago over at Pat Lang’s Sic Semper Tyrannis 2007 blog.
My reasoning was:
1. Presidential Candidates will have been anointed by the January and February primary votes.
2. Junya wants to provide the Repug candidate with another “You’re for us versus you’re for the Enemy” strawman to run on up to the November vote.
3. Junya and Deadeye need about 6 months to ratchet up the “Fear Iran” marketing campaign.
4. Lastly, the US seems to like going to war in the ME in the 1st quarter of the year. Desert Storm and the Iraq War are evidence of this.
I am not clear re: some of the comments above.
demi, Loo Hoo, are you pro- Hillary as the Dem candidate?
Eli @ 101
“Hillary’s Passive Aggressive Iran War”?
This makes perfect sense in a twisted sort of way. As others have said, this offers pre-approved exceptions that the (average)public would consider valid reasons for escalating a conflict but still offer a candidate some protection in language justifications.
It’s far more dangerous like this.
SnarKassandra @ 85
Before the end of the year.
Valley Girl @ 121
Actually, no. For me, anyways, I’m a Edwards/Dodd kinda girl.
larue @ 125
I was kinda thinking it might be a big fuck-you present to his successor…
larue @ 124
December 15, 07
Mad Dogs @ 121
Thank you! interesting thinking.
And I didn’t know that bright little detail about the moon.
Do you think BushCo can successfully sway the populace with their rather obvious marketing campaign?
demi @ 126
You can come here and sit by me…
I’m still hoping that at some point Algore will become so disgusted that he feels obligated to jump in…
demi @ 126
thanks for that clarification. obviously I am not getting the “subtext” in the comments you and Loo Hoo made.
SnarKassandra @ 115
Wow
twȝk @ 120
Kinda like Buckley’s … *g*
demi @ 119
Hiya Gorgeous, how’s the nails ?!! *g*
Eli @ 126
Weren’t HRC and others turned around recently on the odd news that GWB was going to ‘advise’ the new pres on how/what should be done on the warfront? …seems like we all laughed at GWB’s announcement initially but then the candidates were climbing on his wagon a few days later.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 26
I think several things. First people aren’t so aware of all these issues. I know a couple of people who are liberal but “don’t follow” politics. They’re thrilled with HRC, don’t know the stuff she votes for.
Secondly, you bet your ass I’ll vote for Hillary before I vote for a goddamn Republican. If the next preznit is going to, regardless of anything we do here, inherit a war in Iraq and Iran, plus all the gutted Constitutional stuff including the executive power grab, I’d rather Hillary than any of the Republican candidates.
That said, I’m rooting for Edwards. I don’t like HRC. I simply hate the Repub candidates more.
larue @ 125
tomorrow
Petrocelli @ 132
Bucky balls?
Eli @ 127
I was thinking that, too.
George really is a big f*ck you kinda guy.
But, after the primary and/or right before the Dem Convention make sense, too.
Eli @ 127
Betcha Karl made him watch that last story arc on West Wing….
Elliott @ 128
The answer is No, No No.
NO One I know buys his BS. Even the Christian Sheep in my church. Even the ignorant people I work with . No One!
(alternate universe, apparentl.)
Eli @ 130
You and the rest of the world, my friend …
Run Al Run !!!
rumi @ 135
If I were a Democratic presidential candidate, I would solicit Dubya’s advice on everything I possibly could, and then do the exact opposite. Which would make me either the best president ever, or Bill Clinton.
rumi @ 134
Seriously, the “Run to the Whitehouse” thing is a BSO with the lead contestants all spewing admin policy.
sigh. Al ain’t gonna run. I will take cash money bets on that one.
Elliott @ 139
Or, he could attack Iran in March ‘08, and then attempt to assassinate al-Sadr in December.
Valley Girl @ 145
Not from me you won’t. Sigh.
Eli @ 142
707!
Eli @ 143
But just as Fred Barnes says W’s so clever, he probably knows they would flip his advice, Eli! And he would start advising them opposite, heh heh heh.
Valley Girl @ 145
We’ll talk in Mid- October …
peanutbutter @ 136
I cannot tell a lie, peanutubutter, me too.
Has Mahmoud made it home safely to Tehran?
TeddySanFran @ 149
Heh.
First of all, he’s not that clever.
Second of all, you’d be able to actually *see* the wheels spinning as he tries to figure out what the opposite of his position is.
And C, it would be really obvious if he suddenly started saying shit that made sense.
Eli @ 146
you mean assassinate al-Sadr in December 2007? a Northern Alliance sort of blast…
Petrocelli @ 150
Okay.
Elliott @ 154
Nooo, 2008. So the next prez has to deal with the shitstorm.
This would only be if a Democrat won. I think.
TeddySanFran @ 152
Yep and he’s changed the name of the Republican Guard to Bollinger’s Brigade … *g*
bummer.
Elliott @ 129
My response is:
Bro, they are indeed doing just that now. And being very successful with it.
And they are planting all kinds of faux “tripwires” everywhere for the Iranians to trip over.
They are raising all kinds of propaganda “red flags” concerning Iranian-supplied penetrating IEDs, Iranian-training of Iragi Shi’ite militias, Iranian Revolutionary Guards designated as a “Terrorist Organization”, and on and on it will go.
The campaign is well underway!
And my last bit of evidence? The very fact that folks here and all over the place are now talking about the “possibility” of war with Iran.
Just watch as the fire gets hotter and hotter.
It is coming, and you can take that to the bank!
TeddySanFran @ 152
I half expected Homeland Security to pick him up!
Why would Pelosi do that? It seemed like a great idea.
She’s losing touch.
Petrocelli @ 156
707!
Blackwater is the Republican Guard too!
$20, VG
I’m going to be a sucker here…
newtonusr @ 163
Bet accepted, newtonusr! Yer in.
Mad Dogs @ 159
you aren’t exactly Ray of Hope, you know
How about this: W can go to war with Iran only if he institutes a draft to ensure adequate manpower and pays for it on a current basis.
Read Freakonomics–making society bear the full, real cost of the war–through a draft and through taxes–will wipe out those flag-waving weasels.
Interesting headline … “Bush slams Hollywood Values” … someone should tell Shrub that Hollywood actually wins a war now and again …
Valley Girl @ 163
smart money is on late entry.
TeddySanFran @ 161
no fracking idea. she shoots down obey and mcgovern and the base – all at once without even time for people to weigh in?
i fucking don’t get it. makes no sense to me at all.
albert fall @ 165
He’d need some kind of nasty false flag to get that tho.
Petrocelli @ 43
You bet. The Bushies have all of the Clinton-era dirt teed up and ready to go. It’s a win-win for them: (1) If she wins the nomination, the Bushies and Faux Noise will hit her with old/new dirt 24/7, and (2) if she still wins the general, she represents everything they want in a “democratic” candidate anyway.
HRC=More of the same.
twȝk @ 167
Correct. Nothing smart about this money.
Valley Girl @ 121
I have supported Hillary based on her absolutely taking down every other candidate in the debates except for the last one. She clearly cares about health care for Americans. She has the strength to take on Karl Rove et. al. and wax them. I am worried seriously about the Iran vote she cast last week.
Seeing as how Rove uses doublespeak, when he says that they hope Hillary will win, it means the opposite. They are scared shitless of Hillary.
And I think that any playing the left wing in the primaries, which Hillary has not done, says she’s serious about the general election.
I think Hillary is an American patriot and knows that in order to accomplish anything, she has to win the general election.
That said, if she enables W with further war in the Middle East, and continues to NOT VOTE when she should be showing leadership, she will lose my support.
It’s got to be a tricky position to be in. Kind of a damned if you do with the left, and damned if you don’t in the general. And the right still has far too much power with the media.
So I guess my answer is that it’s conditional. I would love to have a woman as President of the United States of America at long last.
Elliott @ 165
and i woke up this morning in such a hopeful mood.
Hee-hee.
In 1976 I ran for Homecoming Queen (there was no “King”) on nomination from my club – the “yearbook” club – at my high schol.
The fact I was in my second year as high school yearbook editor may have helped.
Principal Cordano was not a happy camper (having seen him on the school trip to Europe that summer, it wasn’t really terribly fearsome).
Wiley administrator that he was – and letters for college being due and all – he waged a treacherous, sexist, insightful, and highly successful campaign to “persuade” the “club” (our for-credit class) to re-vote..and I was denied my rightful chance at Homecoming Queen.
[this was the 70’s in a suburb of Pasadena - just before punk. We were bored - any guy would have won just for novelty]
Bush v Gore? Big surprise.
Next year they added a homecoming king.
Someday I’ll show you all the pic of me at my high school graduation with our family friend, the school board member.
And – in her cap and gown – the inflatable woman we grads had been bopping about the audience.
The one I’d brought – with the extra cap and gown…cause well…the collaborators would have it so.
Great teachers, they were.
School Board friend grinning ear to ear, laughing.
newtonusr @ 163
Well, there are suckers, and then there are suckers. I would be thrilled if Al ran. But, I just don’t think that’s gonna happen. Sigh.
albert fall @ 166
YES! Faux Noise and the Bushies constantly spout off about how the democrats will raise taxes, so call their bluff and raise them to fund the war! And, then pull Blackwater’s contract, and tell the Bushies to institute the draft to provide protection/surge support. Put it on their doorstep.
Loo Hoo. @ 173
The thing is, I can’t see what kind of electoral penalty she would pay, in the primary *or* the general, by declaring her undying opposition to the Iraqupation, and to any further bullshit wars, and then acting on it. It would actually win her *more* votes.
newtonusr @ 171
I quite following it really but how know?
Valley Girl @ 175
Fine. Either way, we send the money to Jane, then. Agreed?
I’m shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!
**{been waiting a long time to type that here}**
Valley Girl @ 176
VG, I share your take on this. I’ll cover half your losses (payable to BlueAmerica) in the unlikely but happy eventuality that AL runs…
newtonusr @ 180
I will go with that. Great idea!
punaise @ 182
yer in too, Punaise!
Eli @ 177
That poll this morning only supports your view.
selise @ 174
selise,
we’ll just have to try again tomorrow morning! :)
Our Democratic frontrunners for president really do want to pull defeat from the jaws of victory.
It’s not that hard, ObamaHillaryEdwardmorons!!!
1. End the Iraq War NOW
2. Single Payer Health Care NOW
3. End Torture and Illegal Spying NOW
4. Stop Trying to Start a War with Iran YESTERDAY
So simple and yet so hard for them.
I fear for the future.
So, TSF, how much are you in for?
TeddySanFran @ 180
707!
Loo Hoo. @ 173
I would too.
Did you think she won the debate we saw in Chicago, Loo Hoo? I did not.
Tee-hee.
Congrats, Teddy.
US base 5 miles from the Iran Border = Outpost Gleiwitz.
Coming soon.
Same as it ever was.
Petrocelli @ 167
It would seem he’s just jealous since he has none…! I see you’re flirtin’ with the ladies again!!! ;-)
twȝk @ 185
I think the polls have been supporting my view for well over a year. But this latest one was very gratifying in terms of actually spelling it out.
On the other hand, the fact that most people are still primarily blaming Bush and the GOP is a Dubya-edged sword: On the one hand, maybe the Dems won’t pay as big a price as I think in 2008. On the other hand, they might decide that their non-strategy is working great.
TeddySanFran @ 181
Oh, they’re gambling, thank goodness, for a moment there, I thought … never mind !!! *g*
selise @ 157
But selise, I would never support a war tax unless the loopholes for the very rich and Exxon types are closed first, and the Blackwater types are shut down entirely.
Um, how many hands was that?
Here we go again!
When will Democrats ever learn?
Are they really so dumb?
I thought we could expect better from Webb!
Bob in HI
CTuttle @ 192
Dang it, now you’re gonna tell them war stories and steal them away … *g*
Elliott @ 186
one day at a time my friend.
selise @ 199
one day at a time. *s*
Elliott @ 165
Deadeye is playing “Liar’s Pok*r” and betting that either the Iranians will blink or they’ll “get what’s coming to them.” His point is “who’s gonna stop me?”
Junya, like usual, now thinks this is his idea.
As for hope? Tell me who’s stopping this deranged cabal?
The Senate voted 72 to 22 in feckin’ favor of the Kyl/Lieberman resolution on Iran.
If the Democrats can’t figure out how to stop the Iraq War, what makes anyone believe they’ll be able to stop war with Iran?
Junya and Deadeye know full well that nobody here in the US has the tools or the balls to stop them.
Evidence? Look at the track record. The Democrats have a great big feckin’ “0″ on their side of the scoreboard.
Ray of hope? I wish I saw one. Does anyone realistically see one?
Note: I’ve never been an “optimist” or a “pessimist”. I’ve always prided myself on being a “realist”.
Eli @ 196
4 … like a Hindu God !!! *g*
Petrocelli @ 201
Well, I *am* pretty blue…
Loo Hoo. @ 195
there already is a war tax. the only question is if we pay now or pay later. maybe if people had to pay now (instead of pretending that empire is free), more people would decide the cost wasn’t worth it.
EPU’d
VG has a very interesting couple of links…
Valley Girl @ 67
Petrocelli @ 198
Heh, my wife was grumbling the other day, ‘how do I know you aren’t trying to hook up with another woman?’ I told her it’s FDL, not MySpace, and, if you have any doubts jump in and ask the Lake…! She demurred…!!! ;-)
Eli @ 202
ROFLMAO … but in deep reverence of course … *g*
newtonusr @ 204
thanks for linking that, newt. The YouTube is pretty stunning. But, I didn’t have the er cajones to go OT myself, at this point in the conversation.
Petrocelli @ 206
I’m trying not to turn into Buddha…
kirk murphy @ 190
I think the population could sustain that lose. Just not big enough to cause a mass mobilization.
i am very confused eli & petrocelli
Loo Hoo. @ 195
Before the Iraq invasion, Oil was $17 BBL, now it is near $80 BBL … there has been a war tax, but the government wasn’t collecting it !
Eli @ 192
The law of the least worse :/
twȝk @ 184
Woops. Something got confused. I didn’t say that.
Loo Hoo. @ 173
I think John Edwards has scored, big time, on Hillary regarding the Kyl-Lieberman Resolution when he said in a recent debate that they had both voted in the Senate for the AUMF, but had learned very different lessons from it. The lesson HE learned, he said, was that give Bush an inch, and he’ll take a yard, and then another one, i.e., you can’t trust him, whereas Hillary sees no alarm in that prospect. In that same debate, she gave a real weasely response to the same question. Similarly on withdrawing troops from Iraq: I think Edwards sounds a clearer bell about getting out than Hillary.
This Iran issue could turn out to be real killer against Hillary. She can maybe make the claim that Bush snookered her once (on Iraq). But how can she justify allowing Georgie boy to snooker her twice? She’s making a huge gamble.
Bob in HI
SnarKassandra @ 210
Um, well, I kinda overused “on the other hand”, Petrocelli observed that I had extra hands like certain Hindu deities, and I noted that Hindu gods tend to be blue, as do I.
SnarKassandra @ 210
See Eli @ 7:26 p.m. … it all went downhill from there …
Petrocelli @ 211
no, they haven’t, EXXON et al have been makin’ a pretty penny on the pain.
I really don’t think that Hillary supports going to war with Iran.
Loo Hoo. @ 213
Nope, ’twas me.
Oh, great.
Look who has her big fat name on the Webb troop respite bill in the House:
Well on the other foot …….
Eli @ 201
707!
rwcole @ 218
you don’t? Can you elaborate a little? if you don’t mind.
bobschacht @ 214
Yes; war is Hillary’s achilles heel. If the other nominees can get through the filter and get the primary voters to realize that her commitment to ending the war is about as genuine as Lieberman’s was, she is very much toast.
Be interesting to see how the Republican nominee would play it.
Loo Hoo. @ 214
It’s the penalty we pay with the new WordPress software — no more stern lectures from moderators about nested quotes, but when the nested quotes get cut off and mis-attributed, it looks like things were said by the wrong commenter.
Petro, No comment on my 206?
Loo Hoo. @ 212
bad edit on my part, sorry.
CTuttle @ 206
Be careful! She might find out how you’ve been sweet-talking Suzanne! She’ll point at the screen, hrrrumph, and ask, what’s all this “ma cherie” talk about?
Bob in HI
Hillary is supporting an amendment that requires Clusterfuck to come to congress prior to invading. The “exceptions” are a little ambigious- and should be cleared up or eliminated- still- I see no reason to conclude that she supports invading Iran- quite the contrary.
Eli @ 216
Eli, this humble yogi bows a thousand times, in reverence to your intelligence and wit !
“Which way to the insane Asylum” he asked
“You’re in it” said the man with the chartreuse suit holding a glass of orange kool aid.
He offered the glass, “would you like some?
It makes everything okay.”
twȝk @ 184
OK, looking at this from the other commenter’s position (things got screwey on this) While the polls show that 70% of Americans want this war OVER, you have to factor in FEAR. You all know darn good and well that just before the election (probably the general) there will be a “Scare Americans” action. Media, folks.
bobschacht @ 229
I’m sure Suz would set the record straight…!!! 8-)
just out of curiosity, what are the implications for the ‘08 election, or anything else, if this all turns out to be a bunch of meaningless saber-rattling, and we DON’T attack Iran?
rwcole @ 229
“Is willing to facilitate or provide cover for” is probably more accurate, but unwieldy.
Petrocelli, you’re too kind.
oddmommy @ 234
It depends on how big an issue Hillary’s opponents want to make out of it. If they all vote for it (those who care in a position to) and pretend that it’s this great resolution that will totally rein Dubya in, then it’s a non-issue, and could maybe even be a positive.
But if they call it out for the bullshit it is, I think it could really hurt her in the primary unless she gets those exceptions removed.
Loo Hoo. @ 231
True but the more that is used the less effective it becomes.
Hillary has played politics with the Iraq War and here we go again with Iran. I’m not gonna vote for someone I don’t respect.
Mad Dogs @ 121
I like reading Pat Lang too, for the education, not because the content is reassuring. I thought this post on our headlong charge toward war with Iran was a chiller.
The only trouble with the spring ‘08 analysis is that you don’t need good weather to bomb, if bombing is contemplated. If the new plan is to take advantage of Iranian response to some of our “surgical strikes” and escalate to bombing, we will just be opportunists. We will wait until the Iranians give us a plausible excuse and then go for it. In the latter scenario, the timing is fortuitous. Spring weather is for land invasions. I haven’t heard that one talked about much, but I’m no military person with experience to draw conclusions from.
I do think that it is just a matter of time until Bush does it, unless the Congress stops him. Every time I get near a presidential candidate I ask about it.
bobschacht @ 228
But we ALL have to sweet talk the Mods! just imagine what might happen if we didn’t……
CTuttle @ 227
I did, but it didn’t post … “Our wives know that men of our character wouldn’t fool around … my wife always says that if I ran away with another woman, she would return me in 3 days with full apologies !” … *g*
TeddySanFran @ 189
That debate was nothing. Absolute Vanilla. I certainly hope that next year NetRoots Nation can come up with a moderator.
Loo Hoo. @ 242
Bye-bye, Bai?
Good evening.
Loo Hoo. @ 233
AK, the spook, seems to think the ‘October Surprise’ will be Iran…!!! 8-(
Evening…
CTuttle @ 245
But will anyone actually be surprised…
I posted this little gem in an earlier thread here today:
Mad Dogs @ 42
Maddy @ 231
“But I don’t want to go among mad people,” Alice remarked.
“Oh, you can’t help that,” said the Cat. “We’re all mad here.”
CT i must advise you that I have a file folder with printouts every thread you’ve asked me to cuff ya to give to mrs ct to help set the record straight
headed backstage to get ready for late nite – see ya there
Good evening pups.
Anyone who supports this woman is a traitor to the US. She stands for nothing but more of the same.
Mad Dogs @ 249
Impeach! To the Hague!
Mad Dogs @ 248
Well, fab. But completely unsurprising.
CTuttle @ 234
I’m wondering what Hillary would have said if Bill had told her that Monica would set the record straight! Not that I think you and Suz are anything like Bill and Monica, of course!
:-)
Bob in HI
Hi, Susan! What do they say when you ask?
Petrocelli @ 242
I concur! However, my wife said there would be no more men, she’d turn Lesbian! Hmmm… Not sure how to take that turn of events…!!! ;-)
Quote This Comment
206
CTuttle says:
October 2nd, 2007 at 7:34 pm
Petrocelli @ 198
CTuttle @ 192
It would seem he’s just jealous since he has none…! I see you’re flirtin’ with the ladies again!!! ;-)
Dang it, now you’re gonna tell them war stories and steal them away … *g*
Heh, my wife was grumbling the other day, ‘how do I know you aren’t trying to hook up with another woman?’ I told her it’s FDL, not MySpace, and, if you have any doubts jump in and ask the Lake…! She demurred…!!! ;-)
you-a_d-petro-you-_oth-flirt-with-de_i-so-_ay_e-she-should-liste_-i_
after-heari_g-what-you-post-to-de_i-i-would
oddmommy @ 250
*BIG WIDE GRIN*
hiya lurking mod
Bob in HI
Edwards was singing a different tune earlier this year. Read the last paragraph of the transcript of his speech to the Herzliya conference in Israel, where he talks about what needs to be done with Iran.
bobschacht @ 255
And by “record”, of course you mean, “Bill’s penis”.
re-reading the exceptions- they seem reasonable.
Suzanne @ 251
*gasp* I’m sooo busted…!!!
selise @ 203
Very good point. As usual, selise, you are right. Thanks.
rwcole @ 263
They *sound* reasonable, but they’re easily gamed if you have a president willing to make shit up and lie his ass off. Which we do.
The Lurking Mod @ 246
[rising respectfully]
Top of the Evening to You, O Most Right and Honorable Mod.
May I add that you Lurk in a MOST stylish manner?
rwcole @ 264
And if our preznit was also reasonable, that would be fine.
so.. which is worse? Hillary wants war with Iran, or Hillary may just blunder her way into a war with Iran?
hi cc
Susan in Iowa @ 262
Indeed, He is like the DLC back-up candidate.
dmac @ 259
Dmac!!! I see you still have keyboard issues…!!!
Eli
Yes- that’s the problem. They would be exactly the right thing to have if you had a sane president. On the other hand- you need something like these exceptions- and what the hell- even if you elimiate them all together- he might STILL bomb claiming that he already HAS the power according to fifty four bullshit legal arguments.
rwcole @ 264
Reasonably exceptional to provide for a preemptive strike.
rwcole @ 219
Whenever Hillary is given the choice to be a hawk, she grabs it. She does seem to understand as Edwards has learned and Obama seems to instintively know that diplomacy is strength. Since Obama is the only other frontrunner opting out of federal funds, I have to support him. The last thing we need is a President trying to show strength through military action. This country needs to rebuild it’s relationships through diplomacy and show respect for other countries. Their is strength and benefits to building relationships. Obama seems to be well equipped to dealing with people from other cultures and regions. Hillary is almost solely poll driven. That is not leadership. That is self-promoting. I don’t understand her appeal to the DEMs. Don’t they understand her General Election negatives?
finifinito @ 251
just how HAPPY was your birthday?!
dmac- you got a keyboard offer at the end of an earlier thread-
http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..nt-1010107
Are you a Mr Mod Sir or a Ms Mod Maam?
dmac @ 259
((((( dmac and her keyboard )))))
… now off to see TDS and TCR …
Elliott @ 277
On a scale of 1-10 I would say 6.5 is about right.
without something like the exceptions included, the bill wouldn’t allow the troops to defend themselves if attacked by Iran- that would be a big oops- politically and otherwise.
Petrocelli @ 211
So true, petrocelli.
SnarKassandra @ 279
Cute line from “The Fifth Element”:
“I am a meat popsicle.”
rwcole @ 273
It took, what, 2-3 days to rush the FISA expansion through both houses? Why would a war resolution take any longer if there was a genuine provocation?
I agree that it’s entirely probable that Dubya would ignore the resolution anyway, but there just isn’t any way to prevent that other than impeachment, which isn’t gonna happen. At least the Democrats should be on record as trying to prevent it, rather than facilitating it.
Plus they could have a lot of fun explaining that they had to take the exceptions out because Dubya simply can’t be trusted not to abuse them.
Eli
I’ve been screaming for months that a bill requiring Bush to come to congress before invading or bombing Iran was essential- we’ve got it- it may not be perfect but it’s a step in the right direction.
rwcole @ 282
That is already a given! Our ROE clearly gives the troops the right to defend themselves, I feel the exceptions offer large loopholes for Cheney/Shrub to step through…!!!
twȝk @ 272
These are some serious charges, and seem quite unlike most else I’ve heard about Edwards. I was sad, but not surprized, to learn that he was pandering to an Israeli audience, because it seems like all major American politicians do, out of fear for that organization that cannot be named. But unless you are charging that his populist face is all a fraud, he is the least DLC of any of the current crop of candidates except Kucinich, IMHO. Please clarify.
Bob in HI
The Lurking Mod @ 284
sounds pretty gross Mr Mrs Ms Dr Rev Mod
rwcole @ 282
bulloney!
mad dog at 201
what makes anyone believe they want to stop such an atrocity?
what besides blind faith and projection?
ffs, is nothing beyond the pale for a (D) candidate???
good lord, the old saying if you stand for nothing, you’ll fall for anything is so true.
HRC and the neo-con centrists of the (D) party are free to openly advocate the most insane, counterproductive policies because they know that there are plenty of lemmings who will follow them of any given cliff.
as was pointed out, HRC is both the most likely to lose,
see : http://www.counterpunch.org/giordano10012007.html
and the candidate that neo-conservatives can work with the most if she somehow wins!
so much for your much lauded moral hygeine when it’s HRC raining death on the enemies of [our feisty, paranoid] “ally” in the Middle East.
such stains won’t come off.
xargaw @ 275
Left to her own devices, I don’t think Hillary would ever actually start a war with Iran. But I also see no evidence that she has any desire to prevent Dubya from starting one, which really doesn’t win her a whole lot of points with me.
The Lurking Mod @ 284
That movie made me believe in a Supreme Being!
Forbes just updated their candidate bio for Gore today, for some reason:
http://www.forbes.com/opinions…..2gore.html
Am I the only one who still has his fingers crossed? Please.. pretty, please…
finifinito @ 280
anything over a five is a plus, but I’m thinking a 7.5 might be a line of scrimmage.
but surely you ROCKED OUT! and that counts extra, leastways here it does.
The Lurking Mod @ 283
cute line?
that’s flat out creepy!
TeddySanFran @ 256
Hi Teddy. When John and Elizabeth were here, I asked her about the speech he gave at Herzliya. She said that she couldn’t imagine that he would use weapons that I would find “unacceptable.” I had given one of their staffers a copy of the speech with his comment about what needs to be done with Iran highlighted. I told Elizabeth that he had it, that I am a precinct captain, and that I would not consider supporting Edwards without a satisfactory answer as to what he meant. I never did get one, and that was my third try. His recent apparent change of course is encouraging, but seems as calculated as Hillary’s on the Webb Amendment.
I couldn’t get Richardson’ attention long enough to ask him about Iran, though he did talk about Iraq. He didn’t say anything that anyone who has heard his stump speech hasn’t heard.
Biden pulled no punches in saying that attacking Iran would be colossally stupid and would provoke a constitutional crisis here, and an absolute disaster in the ME. He voted against Lieberman-Kyl. That and his Iraq plan are the biggest reasons I decided to support him. War and peace. Life and death. These are my voting issues this year.
Compared to Gore’s record, Hillary’s a left wing radical communist.
rwcole @ 298
for real???
rwcole @ 298
well.. you know me. I LIKE his trade and business record :)… in any case, this is based on his Senate voting record, and he’s supposed to be new man. I hope not, but that’s what y’all say.
In fact, Al Gore’s voting record as a senator was surprisingly conservative until he rolled his eye toward the White House. Throughout most of his career, he was pro-life and had an 84% anti-abortion rating from the National Right to Life Committee. From 1979 – 81, he voted five times on the side of a Republican sponsored rider that granted a tax exemption for schools like Bob Jones University that discriminate on the basis of race. He was openly anti-gay, calling homosexuality “abnormal” and “wrong,” and telling the Tennessean in 1984 that he did “not believe it is simply an acceptable alternative that society should affirm.” Gore was such a strong supporter of the gun lobby – ultimately voting against the critical 1985 legislation for a mandatory 14-day waiting period for handgun purchases – that National Rifle Association leader Wayne LaPierre once said, “We could have made Al Gore NRA Man of the Year – every single vote.” Finally, when it came time to vote on conservative Supreme Court nominees, Gore publicly praised but voted against the scandal-ridden Clarence Thomas. He voted in Antonin Scalia. If the wider public had been more aware of his legacy, few would have recognized the Al Gore of 1988 who ran for the Democratic presidential nomination
I don’t think Hillary would be a Dem except that she’s not far enough to the right for the current GOoPer party. Thirty or so years back, she would have fit in with the elephant crowd just fine.
My tent isn’t big enough to hold her.
Blub @ 300
Shorter Blub: Compared with Gore’s record, Gore’s a left wing radical communist.
sporkovat @ 290
Roughly speaking, I think there are about 10-15 Dems who consistently vote with the Republicans (Lieberman, Pryor, Lincoln, Salazar, Landrieu, DiFi, Nelsons, etc.), another 20-25 who swing back & forth, and about 10-15 who vote progressive most of the time.
Contrast that with the Republicans, where the comparable numbers are something like, 0, 5, and 45 (or 44, depending on where you count Lieberman).
rwcole @ 300
Well, that all sucks, but that’s not the Algore who would actually be running.
Many of the moderate goopers who tended to vote with the dems lost their jobs last election.
bobschacht @ 288
I just believe his populist face is just that I’ll dig out all the links late-late-late night if you want.
I feel bad bashing on Hillary and the other dems but I can’t stand most of them.
Dmac: Do we need to take up a collection for a new keyboard for you? We just cleaned out our shop at work and threw tons of stuff away. Dam.
Is petro still here?
I was on the phone with my fairy godmother for a long time.
Pretty please, ???
What’s with the loonies (Tancredo/Hunter/Hucklebee).. Genghis Khan on everything but trade, where they’re far left? Oh, I forget, this is the racist wing of the party
CTuttle @ 245
How do you communicate with AK? He sends me no love…
rwcole @ 301
That’s interesting. Compared to that record, he has been radicalized. I wonder if being Senator from Tennesee had anything to do with it. Since he’s been the Veep and then Citizen Gore, he didn’t need to cater exclusively to the home state voters.
Loo Hoo. @ 311
he has a facebook
Loo Hoo. @ 310
Seance?
whereisyourmoneygoing? @ 252
Excuse me? What woman?
Loo Hoo. @ 311
I too wonder what is up with our spook.
I, for one, wouldn’tlet anyone kick me outta here. Maybe. we’ll see.
If Gore does come plan to come in, what’s the drop dead date, reasonably thinking? Anybody know?
nobody kicked him out. visit him on his blog.
No one kicked AK out – he made the choice to leave – one he has made before and then came back
Chris Cillizza: Does Obama Need To Win Iowa?
Suzanne & Snarky
I agree, he left on his own.
I didn’t understand the pique.
Blub
Well start at the first primaries (January) and work backwards. He needs a team- he needs cash- and he needs at least 60 days of hard campaigning..
I’d say he’s already past the deadline.
Suzanne @ 319
but did he leave because someone pissed him off, or is he just doing his own thing?
We’re getting to be worse than Peyton Place…..
CTuttle, I’m still hopeful that October surprise involves a certain judge in Minnesota overturning a certain Senator’s guilty plea, resulting in said certain Senator insisting on keeping his job, in turn resulting in a rethug party that actually starts to devour tself
if you want i can tell some of you on facebook
SnarKassandra @ 318
Well, he Was Nudged.
Tell, me litlegirl.
Loo Hoo. @ 311
Cassie can relay messages, I’ve been reading his posts…
http://spookinthemachine.blogs…..u-all.html
and WHERE’s the Rex?? I’ve been practicing my Fee Fi Foh Fum…
odd mommy, what is your facebook name?
Blub @ 324
Run, Craig, Run!!!
the Rex is typing furiously and late night should post any moment (fingers and toes crossed)
dumb question from one of my students, perhaps somebody could answer or at least venture a guess about: if we go to war with Iran what will likely happen to Iranian studying in the US on student visas? will they likely get thrown out?
oddmommy @ 328
are you smelling blood from an Englishmun?
SnarKassandra @ 329
Odd A. Mommy. And I’m you’re Friend..!
oddmommy @ 327
sigh. I hope he didn’t feel the need to return to the grocery store and relive that bummer of an encounter.
SnarKassandra @ 318
He doesn’t seem to have had any activity on any of his blogs for more than a week (Sept. 24).
Plus, all his blogs have the same blurb about “not allowing comments”.
I’m just guessing but it seems he’s gone to ground for a while.
We’ll just have to wait and see if he re-surfaces.
SnarKassandra @ 325
We’re Friends.
Tell me.
Dem senator in Idyhoe? That’d be a shock. Signal of the second coming or something.
Suzanne @ 331
will you be gracing his page with a dive?
Did we toss out the iraqi’s when we invaded? did we toss out the afghani when we invaded there?
i don’t know the answer blub, but that is where i would start
Blub @ 332
sounds like detention to me.
no dive tonight…. getting cold up here on the mt
rwcole @ 322
Yeah, but if he wins a Nobel Prize next week, they toss out the deadline and reset the clock.
OK. I sent the FB mail.
Elliott @ 333
A Therapodium!
Or at least, I SHOULD be at this LATE hour of the night…..aHEM.
Elliott @ 295
I did indeed rock out. I had a 2 point Single-On-Your-Birfday deduction, a 1 point Depressed-By-Automated-Notice-About-the-Ex-by-Email from the fine folks at Reunion.com who helpfully alerted me to the fact that she recently updated her profile at their website, and a half point deduction from the Uzbekistani judge whose girlfriend bought me drinks in my last dash through Tashkent.
Blub @ 293
Not me, thanks. He chose Joe Lieberman as his VP. That is absolutely unforgivable.
Is it safe to be smelling therapod blood?
Suzanne @ 340
according to the student, yes in the first case (case by case, but those few here got their visas yanked) and no in the second case. I don’t have any personal experience.
Iran’s a fundamentally different type of war…. a real regional power, with an effective military and intelligence-gathering apparatus. If any group gets treated like the Japanese did in WW2, it’ll be the Iranians.
CTuttle @ 327
Ahhh…so that’s the one he’s been posting on. I guess it was the only one I didn’t check. *g*
Suzanne @ 342
dtt! well I’m disappointed but understanding.
ah just wanted to wait for a the Big Guy, but, i gotta go.
The Temple (alice walker) calls.
Cassie, write me on fb and give the girlie stuff.
I hope you saw what I wrote you last nite when we were going to bed.
(hearts & kisses, young, beautiful, girl)
It was 90 today. May I use the diving board please??
finifinito @ 346
707! Automated Ex-reminders, great! Makes me glad my last was before state had been introduced to the web.
fini, you forgot to add in the .5 bonus point for all the movie trivia in your honor last night
oddmommy @ 249
Big :)
Teddy SF got the zed. TRex is here, talking about gay Iranians and hypocrisy.
Not good to run right (to get elected) if she’s going to run us right into another war.
WTF is she doing?
finifinito @ 346
there’s a pile of JOY in there somewhere!
we’re upstairs
bobschacht @ 288
and Mike Gravel who last night on PBS stated clearly that the Kyl-Leiberman amendment was an A*P*C sponsered piece of legislation.
Gravel like Kuchinich thinks the march to war with Iran is insane.
Gravel and Kuchinich are not quislings in the pay or sway of a foreign power.
rwcole @ 322
Eighty percent of the people who donated in 2004 have not donated this cycle. That’s a lot of folks holding out for something and a lot of money as well.
Blub @ 332
If they are lucky, yes. The alternative is too horrible to contemplate.
SnarKassandra @ 312
Sure, Snark, but how do I get it?
rwcole @ 338
Last one was Frank Church and he was a dayum good one at that.
SnarKassandra @ 317
He doesn’t take comments…
AK! Come back!
A Clinton presidency will continue and expand the disasterous, criminal, immoral policies of the Bush-Cheney-neo-con cabal, and your mechanisms of psychological denial may not protect you fully from the cognitive dissonance resulting from your support.
Arthur Silbur:
sporkovat @ 367
Of the candidates most likely to win, and the wankers we have in Congress now, I don’t really hold out a lot of hope that the Democrats will do much more than ease up on the accelerator as we head towards the cliff…
sporkovat @ 367
the ol’ shell game —–
Blub @ 331
Or they’ll get really pissed off. Imagine being a foreign exchange student, or a University student in Italy, and Italy bombed America. How would you feel/react. BushCo is looking and praying for reactions so that more Blackwater types can keep getting rich on our American money.
Suzanne @ 341
Do you have woolen socks, Suz? If not, I’ll send you a pair. It makes all the difference, and saves so much on the electricity. I’m talking high tops.
Mabel’s Wig Shack:
ah, the unspeakable is spoken! so much pretending that there is no giant elephant in the room. Someone upthread even wondered how a candidate could consider attacking Iran, considering the damage it would do to this country… well hello! the advocates of further war in the Middle East proudly flaunt their dual-loyalties, what happens to the American peasantry is not a concern of theirs in the least.
and the treatment of Gravel and Kuchinich at the hands of the mainstream (D)’s is another example of how the forlorn (D) party is broken beyond repair.
Gravel and Kuchinich should bolt to a 3rd party – that would make for some excitement!
SnarKassandra @ 343
Thanks, Cassie!
selise @ 169
1) She has something to gain!
2) She has something to LOSE!
How tough can it be for Pelosi to be invited by Shilary to be the VP? Or perhaps a Rethug Candidate’s VP? Considering Pelosi is Speaker?
I mean, when yer looking for a carrot to explain Pelosi’s obvious BushCo support, it has to be a BIG carrot . . . beyond pork barrell big . . .
What could it be?
SnarKassandra @ 325
Mz. SnarkK, if you could do me a favor, would you tell Al The Spook this Larue misses him terribly, is reading his blogs, and also misses being able to comment on them, too . . . in return I would send you virtual pics of virtual big honkin warm fresh baked chocolate chip cookies with m&m’s in them . . . and some melted marshmellow goo on top, now that I think about it. And a glass of fresh moo’d milk from the barn, too . . *G*
Mad Dogs @ 336
He’s had two new posts on Ravings for a day or so now . . .
Eli, your entire blog and comments are so misinformed and biased no one really knows where to start.
I notice that most of the posts supporting you are from the same anti-Hillary people.
Her support for Webb Bill has been praised by Olbermann and blogger Taylor Marsh.
It’s sad that you think you would go unchallenged by these same dittoheads here.
Eli @ 60
The Queen of triangulation.
.
This is Hillary’s “I voted for the war before I voted against it” moment. She can not have it both ways and get away with it.
Senator Webb would be wise to drop the cover for Hillary and move forward with his amendment without her. Get Biden, Dodd’s, and Obama’s support for an amendment that would put the brakes on an unnecessary and immoral attack on Iran before it is unleashed. John Edwards would sign on.
Stop giving Hillary more room to wiggle, she has shown her true self with her vote for the Kyl/Lieberman vote (if her vote for the 2002 war resolution) had not been proof enough.
Obama and Clinton on Iran. The MSM is giving Edwards the squeeze, not sure what is up with that?
Why is Hillary laughing when serious questions are asked. I think it does demonstrate a disdain for others.
http://www.examiner.com/blogs/…..-Goes-Dean
She can not have it both ways.
http://irannuclearwatch.blogsp…..erman.html
Here is Isrrael’s Indy media on Hillary’s vote
A statement by Mike Gravel who challenged Hillary at the last debate sbout her vote for the Kyl
Lieberman amendment
https://israel.indymedia.org/newswire/display/7548
/index.php
Another perspective on the Hillary yes vote
http://fray.slate.com/discuss/…..69509.aspx
This is a must watch and read
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..66842.html
The discussion on the Israeli Palestinian conflict is finally shifting, after close to 60 years of being terribly lop-sided
On foreign policy, Clinton is nearly indistinguishable from bush. All her words (i.e., triangulating) are an effort to hide that fact.
.
Needs repeating. She is a wolf in sheep clothing. It’s time we faced the fact that she’s no better than the shrub. Progressive should walk away from this loser that is HRC or else we’ll regret it. You think the Dems in congress are bad? Wait till you have this arrogant,conniving and backstabbing person in the white house. Do the right thing and walk away and stay away from Obama too.
Don’t bet on the MSM ever informing the public about Hillary’s political positions and votes.
If you look at the candidates (both R and D), not according to their policies, but how they’d ‘cooperate’ with the business world, you’d find Hillary, Biden, maybe Dodd and even Obama pretty far to the right, along with all the Republicans. THAT’s why Edwards isn’t liked by Big Money and his electability is why they fear him.
But, if a Hillary admin. is as bad a follow-up her predecessor as Bush II was to his, then everyone, including Big Money will suffer.
I wonder, does Hillary do these things to make a down payment to corporations and the VRWC or does she really believe in her votes? Does she really believe in anything except becoming ‘the first woman American president’?