Passage by the United States Senate (60-39) of the Matthew Shepard Act last week was a significant advance. For the first time in history, the United States Congress has voted to include gender identity, the term used to protect the transgender and gender-variant part of the LGBT community. More importantly, the Senate attached this Hate Crime legislation to the Defense Appropriations Bill, using two clever reasons that are driving the talibangelists wild: first, Hate Crimes are domestic terrorism and, second, military members need protection from these Hate Crimes as well, as history as shown.
So, three cheers for Congress passing a Hate Crimes Bill. Nancy Pelosi, for your hard work for many years to ensure that our LGBT citizens are provided civil rights, you may now attend the Human Rights Campaign gala banquet next weekend to pick up your National Equality Award, the highest honor bestowed by the nation’s premier LGBT lobbyists.
Or maybe not….
The same day LGBT activists were rightly celebrating the Senate’s passage of the Matthew Shepard Act, ominous rumblings emerged regarding the Speaker’s other signature piece of gay rights legislation, the Employment Non-Discrimination Act:
House Democratic leaders are strongly considering dropping anti-discrimination protections for transgender persons from the Employment Non-Discrimination Act, or ENDA, after an internal Democratic head count on Wednesday found that the bill would likely be defeated if it included the trans provision, multiple sources familiar with the bill said.
The current version of the bill calls for banning employment discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity, terms that are defined in the measure to include gay men, lesbians, bisexuals and transgender persons.
As of late Wednesday, it appeared likely that the trans provision would be removed, setting up a potentially divisive fight within gay activist circles over whether or not to support an ENDA bill that excludes trans people.
Immediately, the LGBT community fractured: would we accept rights conveyed on some of us, but not all? Suddenly, gays and lesbians were being told that we could win, but our friends would be left behind. The most vulnerable among us weren’t to be included in this legislation, because the Speaker wanted to pass the bill. And she and her team hadn’t done their homework to bring along their caucus. Congressman Barney Frank, one of the floor managers for the bill, wrote:
The Democratic leadership, which is in complete sympathy with a fully inclusive bill, did a special official Whip count – a poll of the Members. There had been earlier informal counts that had showed significant support for a bill that included transgender, although even these informal checks never showed that we had a majority. But Members will sometimes be inclined to give people the answers they think the people who are asking the questions want until the crunch comes. In the crunch – the official Whip count taken in contemplation of the bill – it became very clear that while we would retain a significant majority of Democrats, we would lose enough so that a bill that included transgender protection would lose if not amended, and that an anti-transgender amendment would pass.
Having been told all along by the Democratic leadership that the Employment Non-Discrimation Act would include protections for gender expression, suddenly LGBT national organizations found themselves having to choose. Would they choose incremental success? Would they tell their -T membership, “We’ll pick you up later?” How could the LGB- community possibly celebrate ENDA’s passage, if it passed without protecting our -T?
Some national organizations responded swiftly.
“If the question is shoring up support for the bill as it stands, the answer is to give us more time, not to leave a part of our community behind.”
— Matt Foreman, Executive Director, National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, Inc.
Our collective position remains clear and consistent regarding the status of the Employment Nondiscrimination Act. Our organizations oppose the removal of protections for transgender people from ENDA. We would also oppose any bill that did not protect transgender people. — Stonewall Democrats
While we don’t doubt the sincerity of congressional leadership’s intent to take action and be helpful to the LGBT community, we cannot disagree more with this strategy. We will continue to work with LGBT-supportive members of Congress to urge their colleagues to immediately drop this strategy.
Jody Huckaby, Parents, Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays
Matt Foreman, National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, Inc.
Mara Keisling, National Center for Transgender Equality
Kate Kendell, National Center for Lesbian Rights
Jon Hoadley, National Stonewall Democrats
Rebecca Fox, National Coalition for LGBT Health
Jeremy Bishop, Pride At Work, AFL-CIO
Clarence Patton, National Coalition of Anti-Violence Projects
Andrea Densham, Mautner Project
One point made by many activists is that the “We’ll Pick You Up Later” strategy doesn’t always work. Specifically, in 1989 Massachusetts passed legislation barring discrimination based on sexual orientation. Despite many attempts to include transgender in the eighteen years that have passed, it is still legal to discriminate against people for their gender expression in Barney Frank’s home state. Work goes on there to “Pick You Up Later.”
New York State’s anti-discrimination laws, passed with a promise to transgenders to “Pick You Up Later,” do not yet cover gender expression. In 1988, Michigan’s legislators deleted “sexual orientation” in order to pass a Hate Crimes bill there; still waiting on inclusion.
John Aravosis at AmericaBlog summarizes the choices facing the LGB- community:
Kill ENDA if gender identity is not included
The main argument here is that we shouldn’t leave a portion of our community behind. We’d never pass ENDA if it only included lesbians but left behind gay men, so why pass it if it doesn’t include transgendered people? The underlying assumption here is that gender identity is the same thing as, or close enough to, sexual orientation as to make gays, lesbians, and transgendered people all one family.
Pass ENDA even if gender identity is not included
Depending who you speak to, there are various arguments here. The first is that it’s better to take half a loaf than nothing. The second is that the gender identity issue is new to the game – gays and lesbians have been lobbying for decades to pass this legislation, gender identity advocates have not been lobbying, have not been a serious movement, nearly as long. Thus, their time will come, but it’s not time yet. And a third argument is that gender identity has nothing to do with sexual orientation, so what is it doing in the bill at all.
And the Human Rights Campaign? What position have they taken? They did not join the other groups, but did issue their own statement. From president Joe Solmonese:
We know that everyone has been waiting to hear from HRC about the status of ENDA. A lot has changed since Wednesday.
Besides trying to ensure that the Senate beat the filibuster on Hate Crimes—an achievement which can not get lost in this controversy—we’ve spent the last 48 hours gathering information and using all of our resources to stay on top of very fast-moving developments on ENDA. Rather than issue public statements and alerts while there was still a chance to make the situation better, HRC chose instead to engage directly with allies on Capitol Hill in an effort to save an inclusive ENDA.
During this entire campaign to win an inclusive ENDA, we have been guided by the principle of trying to achieve the end result the fastest way possible. Without question, that result has been—and continues to be—an inclusive ENDA that covers the entire GLBT community. We will continue to use that as our benchmark as we move forward in this process.
Unfortunately, we now know what we’re facing. The decision has been made, according to statements from Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Congressman Frank issued this afternoon—the House will consider a version of ENDA that does not include gender identity.
[snip]
Passing an inclusive ENDA is the right thing to do for our community, our economy and our country. However, we’re facing a stark reality.
House leadership and the bill’s sponsors very firmly believe that if the House votes on an employment non-discrimination bill without gender identity, that legislation will pass—again, it will pass even without the support of the GLBT organizations.After trying everything at our disposal to change this outcome, we are just beginning to come to terms with what that means.
Since 2004, the Human Rights Campaign’s policy has been to only support civil rights legislation that is inclusive of gender identity. That’s why we fought tirelessly for and won Congressional approval for a fully inclusive hate crimes bill. We’ve been fighting to pass the Employment Non-Discrimination Act for more than a decade. The breaking news that the House has decided to move forward on a non-discrimination bill that is not inclusive of gender identity is devastating. The Human Rights Campaign remains dedicated to the fight for full equality for our entire community and, in light of this new reality, continues to consult with members of Congress and our lobbyists to determine how we can achieve that goal.
This has been a long battle. HRC first started the quest for ENDA in 1994. We’ve been pushing for an inclusive bill since 2004. Within two weeks, ENDA could pass the House for the first time in history, but not as an inclusive bill.
Can you tell if the HRC will support the trans-exclusive ENDA? Can you tell if the HRC will work to defeat a non-inclusive bill? Can you tell if the HRC will actively oppose any bill that excludes transgender Americans?
Neither can I.
Congressman Barney Frank, again (my bold):
For these reasons I have proposed along with the Democratic leadership the following strategy. First, we have introduced two bills. One will be ENDA as it has historically existed, banning discrimination on sexual orientation. A second will add transgender protections to that basic scheme. We will move forward with the ban on sexual orientation for which we finally – after thirty-plus years – have the votes.
After we are successful in winning that vote, I will urge the Committee on Education and Labor to proceed with our next step, which will be to continue the educational process that I believe will ultimately lead to our being able to add transgender protections. This will mean within a month or two a hearing in the Committee on Education and Labor which, unlike the hearings we previously had on this bill, will focus exclusively on transgender issues, and will give Members a chance to meet transgender people, to understand who they really are, and to deal with the fears that exist. The other options are either to bring a bill to the floor in which the transgender provision will be defeated by a significant majority, making it less likely that we will be able to succeed in this area in the future, or ask the Speaker of the House to in effect put aside her lifelong political commitment to fairness and be the one who announces that we will not pass a bill banning discrimination based on sexual orientation even though we have the votes to do it. Passing ENDA in part and then moving on to add transgender provisions when we can is clearly preferable to either of these approaches.
All in all, it sounds to me like the schedule has become more important than the legislation. Last time this happened, Democrats in the House of Representatives got played on FISA, as Jane Harman has explained. Now, though, I wonder: does Nancy Pelosi want ENDA now because celebrating its passage is a central part of her Keynote Address to the Human Rights Campaign at the end of this week?
That National Equality Award might have a little dent in it, though — from throwing the most vulnerable among us under the bus in her rush to get the bill passed in time for the banquet.
(YouTube of HRC President Joe Solmonese speaking at the Southern Comfort transgender conference on September 14, 2007: “We will not support and in fact we oppose any legislation that is not absolutely inclusive.”)
UPDATE: Why do transgenders need ENDA protection? Gwen Smith tells why.
UPDATE TWO: Tonight is the last opportunity to make a third-quarter contribution to any Blue America candidate. A dollar now is worth many times a dollar contributed one year from now, as candidates prove themselves capable of broad-based early support from many donors. If you plan to donate and can donate tonight before midnight in your time zone, please do. Since our Sunday Late Nite efforts jump-started a Blue America donation spurt one week ago, the till has increased over $16,000. Thanks for all you do!



323 Comments





Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About Firedoglake
Teddy!!
Hello, Laura — did you tell downstairs?
Sure did. How ya doin’?
Wow, that was a short thread.
Suze will be here before much longer – mea culpa cause she and the cutest dog in da whole wide world kindly gave me a ride home from across the bay.
Now to read Teddy!
Howdy y’all! hi hi hi hi hi hi hi hi hi hi hi and hiya!
Fuckery, I tell you, fuckery! Equal treatment under law, or we throw the bums out!
SnarKassandra @ 6
Hey Cassie! Ready for another week of expanding your mind? ;0)
Teddy!!!
I expand my mind more with my blog and the radio and coming here. But yeah, I am ready for school.
Hi Mitch, hi npbrat, hi Cass. (I think you’ve got too many hi’s in your comment, SnarK — where is everybody tonite?)
Howdy Cassie! And hi, hi, hi, ya know! I’ve been gone almost two weeks and have missed everyone so greatly.
Chris
Hi CT, hi Christine!
SnarKassandra @ 10
Well, yeah, there was a bit of snark there. Judging from reading your blog and comments I’m guessing you are able to keep your teachers on their toes.
TeddySanFran @ 11
It is 16 minutes past! I figured at least 12 people.
Good post, Teddy. Congrats on the hate crimes bill – long past time. Don’t know what exactly to think about the employment discrimination bill. On the one hand, something is better than nothing, but it doesn’t sound like the Congressional leadership really pressed as hard as they should have.
One of my colleagues (and a friend) is a transgender who went through reassignment surgery this summer. She has been very fortunate and has been fully supported by the department and the university. She also has the support of her family (she has a wife and two children). The students, so far as I have seen, never missed a beat when Bill suddenly became Anna.
Unfortunately, I know that this is not the norm (gender is one of my areas of expertise). Everyone should enjoy equal protection of the law and be free from discrimination, especially in critical areas like employment.
Thanks TSF, gosh I’ve missed so much news.
EDP, these bums seem intent on fracturing one of their most loyal coalitions. Why are they so bad at running Congress?
Teddy, great article on a complex topic.
In my LGBT focused-clinic, my trans women patients under 30 (35?) are all HIV positive.
From gang-rapes.
Still can’t figure out how rapist N > 1 has “homosexual panic” when he sees the guy ahead of him raping a guy.
But law enforcement could.
All gangrapes reported – none prosecuted (per patients).
Good for LGBT community for their work for freedom.
And maybe one day I’ll quit meeting young men and women who came to SF because their families feared them.
And ignored their rape reports.
Queer people are bad: the preachers we hear in our homes say so – it must be true.
The preachers are like family, right?
EvilDrPuma @ 7
Ding!
My friend has an older sister that used to wear skirts, and then she decided she was gay, and then she decided maybe she was in the wrong body, and then she met a guy who is older than her dad, and now she is engaged to get married to the older guy, and she still dresses in guy clothes.
Teddy,
I think it a courageous stand to say we won’t leave anyone behind.
We all want change and we want it yesterday.
It would be very tempting to take a half plate when what you really want is a full plate.
I’m thinking of Edwards quoting the scripture, “What you do for the least of these, you do for me.”
And I mean that in the way you categorise trangenders as the most vulnerable, and most needing of being treated with respect, just like everyone else.
Evening, Teddy.
This is a difficult problem, with no answer that is obviously Pareto-optimal.
It’s easy (and correct) to say that inclusion of Ts in the bill’s protections should be a no-brainer. That doesn’t seem to be the reality, however.
By nature, I’m an incrementalist. I’d always rather hit a single than strike out majestically. I acknowledge that incrementalism is an easy position for an affluent, educated, straight white guy — I’m not the one behind the eight ball. But how confident are you that you can get the whole package next year or the year after?
TeddySanFran @ 18
I think they’ve been living under the dome too long, as a group. Too little collective contact with any part of their constituency–they take the unwarranted luxury of dealing with issues in the abstract.
madmommy @ 14
I almost feel for them…!!! ;-)
Aloha, Cassie!!!
SnarKassandra @ 21
Simply illustrates what I try to tell my students in the intro classes. Gender and sexual identity is a complex, multidimensional phenomenon that does not easily fit into discrete pigeon holes.
DrDick @ 16
It was exactly the scenario of Anna’s return to school that Congressman Frank used as a scare tactic requiring “more education” on Capitol Hill — the returning teacher. “Whatever will we tell the children????” Well, as Anna has proven, students are remarkably resilient and able to understand.
Your friend is blessed. Even in San Francisco, only 25% of transgender persons are fully employed.
fantastic post teddy, thank you!
Kirk I do not understand. Your women patients were always women or they are new to being women? Which were they when they were raped?
TeddySanFran @ 11
What do ya expect when ya post a lengthy and meaty post like that one…!!! ;-)
Christine Daniels, a sportswriter for the Los Angeles Times who used to be Mike Penner, has been blogging about her experiences on the LAT website. It has been fascinating reading.
TeddySanFran @ 18
Me thinks too many of them have been in the sandbox too long. Try as I might to forgive and forget I’m still fuming over Bar Boxer’s trip to CT to help hapless new independent Liarman. against all political reason. Gave up on DiFi long ago. And just last week my congress critter Sam Farr voted on that silly resolution to officially scold Move On. His relection campaign is a little over a year away. WTF?
Teddy-
Thanks for the post. This is why Pride At Work is sponsoring a picket at the HRC National Dinner to target Nancy Pelosi and let her know civil rights are not negotiable and we will not let the leadership have this backroom deal be met by silence.
We will be meeting at 4:15pm in front the Washington Convention Center.
For full details: Not Working ENDA: Picket Nancy Pelosi
As labor unionists we don’t accept divide and conquer strategies at the bargaining tables and we definitely do not support dividing our community for political expediency.
In Solidarity,
Jeremy Bishop
Executive Director
Pride At Work, AFL-CIO
burnspbesq @ 31
Rick Reilly wrote a piece about her in his column in Sports Illustrated a while back. It was very well done IMHO, and probably the only time many sports fans outside of the LA Times circulation area had a name and an actual person to connect with the LGBT community.
burnspbesq @ 23
The alternative, as in some states, seems to be to wait an entire generation. After all that time, Massachusetts and Michigan have still not amended their Hate Crimes laws.
Congressman Frank proposes that the separate transgender ENDA be the subject of transgender-exclusive committee hearings this fall His goal is to educate his caucus and pass something — next year?
This preznit is going to veto any ENDA anyway, so it seems to me that Pelosi and Frank are just trying to buff up their legislative accomplishments, perhaps for the dinner next weekend. There’s not any rush I can see except that.
Jeremy Bishop @ 33
Mahalo, Jeremy! Stick around…!!! *g*
Bedtime for me, busy day tomorrow. Goodnight all!
Teddy, Are you willing to risk no ENDA to get T protection written into it?
I need to be schooled in this issue.
I will say that I am glad to see the rationale that hate crimes are acts of terrorism employed. People don’t understand this, and sprout bullshit about “thought crimes” and “one victim is worth more than another,” a la Fucker Carlson. When a African-American is lynched it is specifically to terrorize the AA community.
I testified in the State Senate many years ago in favor of Hate Crimes bill. In those days, the inclusion of sexual orientation was a tactic to kill the bill. Will T protection serve the same purpose for opponents of ENDA?
My gut tells me that half a loaf is better than none. There’s a new moon rising, and regardless of how long it has taken in Massachusetts — and apparently it hasn’t happened yet for T’s — it may be easier in the next congress. This is why I want to hear Teddy’s opinion.
madmommy @ 37
Nite, MM!!!
Wow! Ms. ET is sauteeing home-grown garlic slivers and scarlet runner beans, and I’m reading her the three most current definitions of “transgendered,” and we’re talking about how transgendered we both are in psychological ways. TSF, one of the best long essays you’ve done here.
Gotta go check the leg-of-lamb roast out on the spit.
Night MM.
Pleasant dreams, MM.
(put a little lotion on those sweet toes right before you climb in. I don’t want ya slipping on any floors.)
Bye madmommy.
Do they let transgender people serve in the army?
SnarKassandra @ 44
Not here, but IIRC they do in the Netherlands and perhaps elsewhere in Europe.
If the Bible or God said jump off a bridge would you do it? If the B or the G said hate Gays or Transgenders would you do it? If the B or the G said kill your son would you do it?
Why can’t these people think for themselves doing the wrong thing because an authority figure tells you to is not Faith! Its the mark of a good slave!
What is the wrong thing? Besides what authority figues say is wrong? Well for starters something that causes you or an other harm! Laws that restrict behaviour should do so on the basis of avoiding harm.
I like the Bible but when Abraham said God told him to kill his son and he almost did I’m hoping that Abraham actualy failed the test, well that or I don’t worship THOSE KIND OF GODS…even if they were kidding and told Abe No! at the last minute.
DrDick @ 45
First: Out of the mouths of babes….
(it’s a Good Thing, Cassie).
Hell, how many translaters have we lost because they were gay? I heard a good number.
2. Dr. Dick – yeah, those crazy mf’s. They even have pot and hash parlors. They must all be on dope. :)
Ed*ard Teller @ 40
Heh, I’m Mr. Mom, I tend to my medically-home schooled son and babysit a foster toddler, hanai son, and, my wife is the main breadwinner as a CNA…!!! ;-)
things come undone @ 46
Their supposed savior said, “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone,” and “Judge not, lest ye be judged.” Unfortunely, they are more interested in listening to a couple of hallucinatory maniacs who never even met Yeshua al Nazarat, but apparently hijacked his religion anyway.
kirk murphy @ 19
Get the names of the police who didn’t investigate and place them on fliers all over their hometown in the middle of the night!
BigMitch @ 38
After much pressure, HRC agreed in 2004 to back no civil rights legislation that was not inclusive of their entire constituency. It’s in their mission statement. Finding out at the last minute that the Democratic leadership (which has also told us all term that they are committed only to an inclusive bill) is abandoning our trans friends really hurts.
Half a loaf is great when you’re offered bread.
We’re being told that our co-community members — in fact, the heirs and heiresses to those who began our fight at Stonewall and Compton’s — aren’t to be included in this bill. How can any LGBT community celebrate passage of this bill when there are lesser, non-included members of our community? Especially when those members are not protected by local laws, unmentioned in most corporate policies, and underemployed.
demi @ 47
Their green salads are to die for…! The Dutch have got it right…!!!
things come undone @ 46
This is my favorite story in the Bible, and I have a son named Isaac. For what it’s worth, I have come to believe that Abraham actually did slaughter his son, who was later resurrected. But this is obviously not the best place to discuss it.
TeddySanFran @ 51
I, for one, do not feel comfortable telling LBGs that they should hang tough for their T brothers and sisters. It’s too easy for guys like me to encourage sacrifice on the part of others, since I don’t have to live with the consequences of anti-gay bigotry in my own life.
Jeremy — Thanks for posting the DeeCee picket information. I’ve bookmarked the info and will post it later in the week, when DeeCee firepups are around. I hope you have a great turnout — well, actually, I hope we make progress this week so that your picketing becomes unnecessary.
But good luck! HRC will not like the optics of being picketed by the AFL-CIO Pride at Work folks, and neither will the Speaker or any other Democrats attending….
BigMitch @ 54
A thought, though: does it have to be a matter of telling those who would be protected to hang tough for those who wouldn’t? Or can this be a situation where the House needs to be told to shape up its act and start legislating equal protection under law? Why does it have to be LBGs or Ts taking the hit over this?
CTuttle @ 48
A six-pack of Trumpeter swans took off from the lake as I was tending the leg-of-lamb. Back in, and Ms. ET and I are continuing the discussion. Without even getting kinky, it turns out, by using one of the current definitions – Of, relating to, or designating a person whose identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender, but combines or moves between these – we’re not just transgendered psychologically, but physically. This subject, which I had misidentified, is now totally fascinating.
Mitch, I respect that. It’s easy to comment from a place of privilege, as I do from San Fran, where I am entirely protected as are my trans friends. But — to be told by Congressman Barney Frank, who fought his own demons to become the enlightened leader he is, that our trans friends must wait while they pass an LGB ENDA?
That seems wrong to me, as Congressman Frank is much more privileged than any of the transpersons he’s leaving behind to pick up later.
BigMitch @ 53
No problem I have my own theories but whatever you are comfortable about talking about is cool. I’m just sick of people who twist the Bible to justify their own Hate!
That and I can twist the Bible better than they can to make fun of those authoritarian “good slaves”.
ET — your and the Mrs voyage of self-discovery is fascinating! Please tell us more, if you like….
TeddySanFran @ 58
Sounds a little like my reply, to me anyway. Hang this around Congress’s neck, don’t let them hang the choice of evils on you.
“If you want to go quickly, go alone. If you want to go far, go together”
— african proverb via al gore.
EvilDrPuma @ 56
Because is the bill fails, it will be LBGs who will be without protection if they are discriminated against, and they could have had protection.
“Judge not that ye be not judged,” I have observed during voir dire gets jurors off juries. And I’m glad this time the Bible has a use. Good riddance.
It is interesting to note in light of tonight’s topic that Anglo homophobia is apparently highly contagious. Many tribes in Native North America had traditional transgendered roles (mostly m to f, but some f to m) and accepted these people as a normal part of life. In some cultures they were even regarded as specially blessed by the spirits. Under the influence of Anglo-American culture, most of these roles disappeared by the early 20th century. Today, many tribes, including those who previously saw transgenders as blessed, are violently homophobic.
My friend Anna is an archaeologist who works with Native groups. She has been very fortunate in that, after some initial shock, they have all adjusted and accept her as she is. Part of this is because she had such good relations with the people to begin with and they knew her as a good person.
selise @ 62
Wow.
selise @ 62
United we stand, divided we fall…!!!
I hope no one took offense to my quoting that scripture.
And, I hope that I made my point clear, lifting the transgendered up as needing more love, because their lives are more difficult. I mean, Teddy, you mentioned the high unemployment rate, which is probably only part of the iceberg.
and, Mitch,
I like that story too. I thinks it speaks to Faith.
House members (Barney included) either believe that failure to extend Constitutional rights to ALL AMERICANS is abhorrent, or it is not. Period.
TeddySanFran @ 58
yeah, that makes sense. it would be a different story if the glbt community made the decision together instead of having it imposed on them.
Teddy,
Thank you for this. I’ve read your post twice, and so far I don’t have much to contribute except for a very emotional reaction.
And, that would be tears. Because the few transgendered people I have known, either personally or by reputation are indeed among the most sensitive and acute observers of the human condition of any humans I have known.
I will name only two. One, was “Jack” who was one of my dearest friends in graduate school. He was born with multiple heart defects, any one of which would have been fatal on it’s own, but somehow compensated for each other, so that he was able to live until the age of 30. He was one of the kindest and most observant humanists I have ever known. I had left graduate school and was living in England when he, knowing that his time was short because of his various heart defects, decided to declare himself as “Jane”. He died from heart failure just over a year after that. I still hold him/her in my heart, and regret so much that I was not there with him during his last years.
And, at the other extreme, is some I know only through various press articles: Ben Barres, formerly Barbara Barres. He is a neuroscientist, as am I, and when I read his account of the different treatment he had received as a female (formerly) and then a male (now) in neuroscience, I almost wept, but for entirely different reasons. He recounted how differently he had been treated once he became a male scientist, vs. how he had been treated as a female scientist. I will give a link to one account, and some snippets below.
But, both my personal encounter with Jack/ Jane, and my reading only about Barbara/ Ben said to me that transgendered persons really are extraordinary in their experience and their unique vision.
Here is the link to one article about Ben Barres (formerly Barbara Barres)Neuroscientist, once a woman, says he saw gender bias firsthand
I read that article when it first appeared, and my first, and enduring reaction was “oh, thank you, thank you Barbara and Ben. Now I know that as a female neuroscientist that I am not crazy in my perception that there is huge gender discrimination in science.”
snips:
~~In an interview with the Globe, Barres said his understanding of what it’s like to be a woman and a man in the sciences proves that women face significant discrimination. But he did not become an active feminist until January 2005, when Harvard president Lawrence H. Summers, who stepped down two weeks ago, suggested that women lack the same “intrinsic aptitude” for science as men.~~
~~Barres loved MIT, even though the student body was only 5 percent female at the time. But one experience stands out: He vividly recalls toiling all day on a take-home math exam, finding an elegant solution to the hardest problem. The professor told the class that no one had solved the problem, so Barres went up to him afterward. The professor, Barres says, looked at Barbara with disdain and told her that “my boyfriend must have solved it for me.”~~~
~~~Barbara Barres noticed she was frequently interrupted while speaking. But now, (Ben) Barres writes, “I can even complete a whole sentence without being interrupted by a man.”~~~
TeddySanFran @ 58
This really is a hard one for all of us who support equal rights. Whatever your community decides to do they definitely need to light a fire under Congress and not let them forget about this.
Good evening dear friends. Good to see you. Excellent post on an important topic, Teddy.
TexBetsy @ 73
Howdy, Ma’am!!!
BigMitch @ 63
LBGs, though, are in many ways already protected, through local and state ordinance and through many corporate policies. It’s Ts who really need this federal protection the most, although all do. Why split a community this way? Why say, in fact, that these “others” may not even be members of the community, as John alludes to in his “Pass ENDA” option?
Unfortunately, some say Congressman Frank has been among those who have been heard to make the argument that a community of those organized around their sexual orientation does not include the transgendered. Therefore, his discard seems especially unseemly.
Evening Betsy. How’s life in the center of the (C&W) musical universe?
Hi Cassie -
Thanks for your excellent question: my comment was very confusing.
I apologize.
In discussing this, I will be discussing basic aspects of human biology – including human sexuality.
Of course, there is no prurient or erotic content in what I am discussing, and so I believe my answer to yor extraoridarily reasonable and non-prurient question is without erotic content.
And I apologize for all the above verbiage, but these are the times in which we live.
: (
Cassie, over 90-91 I had the privilege of studying Human Sexuality with Joe and Peggy Golden at UCLA. They are pioneering researchers – UCLA’s psych department was really hurt when an incoming (now departed) psych dept chair axed their Human Sexuality Program.
The program cost the department next to nothing.
In the early 90’s when “life-style” clinical programs helped academic medicine departments weather the loss of Federal funding.
The former psych chair appeared to be afraid of sex. Go Freud!
I digress – but I’ve taken up so much of the page the “anatomical details” are way down the page.
Such are the times in which we live.
Back to your question:
For people undergoing gender re-assignment, the process unfolds under months and years.
Ideally, people considering re-assignment first have an opportunity to explore/choose attire/behave as their ID’d gender then have the chance to have hormonal therapy.
In trans women (born male) the hormone estorgen grows breasts.
So a (born male) trans woman taking female hormones may have female breasts and (”pre-op”) male genitals.
Most gender reassigment surgeons/programs in the US would not pursue genital reconstuction in patients who had not taken hormones/lived as their intended gender for quite some time.
For the vast majority of patients, the surgery is elective – so they have to pay.
Hence, lots of people seeking gender re-assignment surgery are “stuck” in their genital gender of origin (even after years on hormonal therapies) while they seek the money for surgery.
[And some people will be content with hormonal gender reassignment without genital reassigment].
PS: As I am not a trans person, I am describing a group of folks I work with. I hope my description “from the outide” is respectful for LGBT folk.
If not, I very much apologize and would be grateful for information on how I could do better.
If I’m understanding you correctly, Teddy, you’re not getting anything this year, no matter what. A non-inclusive bill can pass, but will be vetoed, and the veto can’t be overridden. An inclusive bill can’t pass.
If that’s correct, then this is all political theater (please understand that I do not mean to minimize the importance of this by attaching that label to it), and the question is which kind of failure is a more useful tool in mobilizing people for 2008 and beyond.
A veto is a very shiny object.
One step back, in order to create an opportunity to take two steps forward?
Dunno. Maybe.
To be honest Dr D, I left the house today only to go to the grocery store. Beautiful area, via the window.
TexBetsy @ 79
Well, that is once more than I left. Laundry & housecleaning day.
Thank you kirk. Were the women that were raped anatomic women or anatomic men when they were raped? Is it the rape that made them want to change?
TeddySanFran @ 60
We’re sort of overwhelmed by having assumed that the term “transgender[ed]” refers to people who have had sex reassignment surgery – like Walter/Wendy Carlos. But it is such a rich, changing field of research, and it appears, from just catching on to how subtle this area is, that we have a lot to learn.
Like I’ve said here before – learn something new at fdl every day.
DrDick @ 72
Well, let me throw out another thought. The hearings on trans are going to be the subject of ridicule, as we can all foresee. The Dem congress will have to choose between, doing the right thing and taking a hit in the national polls on the one hand, or doing the politicaly convenient thing, on the other. As someone pointed out earlier, predictions are difficult especially about the future. However, I know which way to bet on how this will turn out.
I admire Barney Frank, specifically for finding the perfect balance between being honest about who he is, and keeping his private life, private. But will he really have hearings on giving Transexuals protection from employment discrimination?
Hey Teddy and all, I took so long to type my comment that I missed out on a lot of the discussion in comments. I will go reread.
HOWEVER, Teddy, I earlier emailed Howie telling him that the “Jane end of quarter” thread was up.
He made a comment at the end of the last thread. It Cost him! hehe Howie is the best!!!!
http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..nt-1006391
Howie said: Earlier this afternoon I put up a post saying I would match all of the money that was donated while I was away watching Jackson Browne do a John Hall benefit concert for any of the Blue America primary candidates I had written about last night. Jane’s post inspired several thousand dollars in contributions from the community. Thanks you one and all. Those who donated to Steve Cohen (as well as Vic Wulsin, Donna Edwards, Mark Pera, John Laesch, Jon Powers)… your generous donations were matched. That cost me nearly a grand. Good cause though!~~~~
Dr D, we did tons of housework and cooking and shopping for food here too.
SnarKassandra @ 81
From the existing literature, it is clear that transgender is deep seated and typically manifests at a young age. Most adult transgenders say that they have always felt like they belonged in a different body. That is certainly true for my friend Anna, who has two children, one about your age or a little younger and the other about 19.
Hi everybody.
One of the amazing things about this issue to me is the casual acceptance of anti-gay slurs among the young: students who would never think of using a racial, ethnic, or other slur will casually say things like “That’s so gay” or a million other variations of same that escape me right now. The only upside I see to it is the hope that both the concept and words are losing the ability to shock, and thus are becoming accepted by the mainstream.
Great post, Teddy.
Well, Teddy, I don’t envy you getting handed such an offensive choice. I’m going to call it a night. Be excellent to each other…no matter who you are.
RonD @ 87
I hear that a lot also, but by kids who aren’t really commenting on sexuality or gender.
night evil doc
‘night, EDP.
RonD @ 87
On the other hand, one thing I see all the time is far greater openness and acceptance of alternative sexual or gender identities among college age young people than was the case in the past. It is also growing quite rapidly. As I mentioned Anna’s students never so much as batted an eye. They even did better with the name change than we older folks did.
Night EDP.
burnspbesq @ 78
As usual, Burnspbesq makes a good point. If this is all theater, which will hurt the R’s most: a veto or defeating the more inclusive bill?
I am sick and tired of thinking that passing a bill is a symbolic act, because the decider is going to veto it. I say, fuck him. Pass the best bill you can, and let he who didn’t use a veto for 5 years, strike a blow for bigotry.
I personally think that the majority of Americans would favor this bill. Teddy, what does your intuition or other information tell you?
BigMitch @ 83
Why wouldn’t Barney hold’em, it’s his committee, I suspect it will not be attended by any Rethugs… I also doubt C-span would cover it live…!!!
Hi Cassie -
The trans women who were raped (all born male) knew they were “in the wrong body” before puberty.
They were gangraped as transwomen – some before, some after starting hormone reassignment.
They were raped by men whom I believe to be homophobic – so insecure in their own sexual lives they could feel lethally threatened by some other person’s freedom.
pathetic and ignorant, but deadly.
Thanks, VG. I remember the neuroscientist’s story. It is amazing.
Is shrub going to sign this bill? I suspect he only understands “gay” in the context of whatever epithets he once directed at the more effeminate-seeming victims of his high school bullying.
kirk murphy @ 96
I would strongly agree with Kirk about the rapists. In my experience, strongly homophobic men tend to be extremely insecure in their own sexual/gender identities. I suspect that a lot of their anger (rape is about rage, not lust) comes from the fact that they are aroused by gays/transgenders and they are trying to deny that.
burnspbesq @ 78
Yes, but a veto of an exclusive bill that’s fractured the community that supported the original inclusive bill hardly bodes well for organizing that community to support Congressional Democrats in 2008.
good evening good firepuppies.
It’s late and I’m tired, so I could be totally off here, but this reminds me of the discussion the other day about SCHIP, when I heard that Kucinich joined the repiglicans in voting against it because it didn’t go far enough.
If you don’t help everyone you should help no one — even some of the very neediest? Is that a valid comparison to what is being discussed here?
Just askin…..like I said, I’m tired…..in fact, may change my name to tiredoldmom one of these days.
Mitch,
Thanks for supporting Diane Benson at the Blue America thread here earlier. I have to disagree with you, though, on your claim there that we disagree on a lot of issues. We don’t disagree on very many things, but those are very important to us both. I’m not soliciting a discussion of those disagreements, just thanking you and begging to differ a bit…
BTW, Diane Benson is just short of busting the 50K barrier for this quarter. She’s in a Democratic Primary primary contest with Jake Metcalfe, the former head of the Alaska Dems, who supports Rahm Emanuel’s, weak-knee’d image of the Party. Benson wants to revitalize the Dems up here, feeling that this is the most important recruiting opportunity Alaska Democrats have ever had, with all the GOP crooks and corrupt bastards going to jail – almost so many that it must be hard getting a quorum at some of their meetings.
It’ll take $12 to put Diane Benson’s ActBlue page over $6,000, and about $200 to bring her over $50K for the quarter.
CTuttle @ 95
Because by the time he gets around to it, W will have vetoed the less controversial bill, and it will appear as an excercise in futility. Time consuming in a time of war ….. etc.
DrDick @ 86
I would add to that from my knowledge as a biologist- I have seen no evidence, absolutely none, that this is subject to any kind of social (or a social) experience. Transgendered people are born with one outward body form and the other inward brain form. And, in cases where parents are confronted with an infant of unclear outward sexual form where a choice is made to socialize the child in a way that does not, as it turns out, match their inner psyche and “brain”, no amount of socialization can make this seem “right” to the child, if the choice of outwardly-assigned gender identity has been wrong.
Ed*ard Teller @ 102
We can’t even agree about whether we disagree!
:-)
Valley Girl @ 104
My only knowledge of that last phenomenon is from an ER episode 5-10 yrs ago.
TeddySanFran @ 97
Thanks Teddy. I only quoted that because it was close to my experience. I’m sure there are other examples of transgendered people who are the most acute observers of life as a male and life as a female. They really are very unique people, and I think that they should be celebrated.
BigMitch @ 105
Such disagreeable people those Alaskans.
BigMitch @ 105
OK, you two, y’all asked for it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCpQLZs2Eh8
I’ve been a GLBT activist in Indiana for quite some time and I’ve not felt any division. Everyone I’ve talked to thinks it’s a mistake.
I’ve come to learn that Aravosis is doing consulting work for HRC, so his take on this isn’t surprising. Ya don’t bite the hand that feeds you.
Ultimately, BF made a decision that was based on Presidential politics, not on the community’s best interest.
Mitch, when has that ever interfered with a congressional hearing… Granted, there are certainly bigger fish to fry…!!! ;-)
TexBetsy @ 106
There have been quite a few authoritative reports in the scientific literature about the experience of such children.
BigMitch @ 83
I think having transgender-focused hearings cannot be a winner for the D team, quite frankly. Our best hope, I thought, for protected transgendered people was in an inclusive bill. Abandoning them makes me think we’ll never come back to pick them up, for all the reasons you mention.
TexBetsy @ 108
They need an infusion of the Aloha Spirit…!!! 8-)
A very interesting topic that I know little about.
Question: just what exactly is the conservative/wingnut/bigot argument in favor of retaining the right to discriminate against these people? Do they argue that God condemns such people for being what they are, or what?
What are the Democrats so afraid of? Just how do they think supporting full equality can hurt them?
Valley Girl @ 112
There is even a growing intersexual (persons not unambiguously biologically male or female) activist movement which advocates no surgical intervention, at least until the person is able to make a gender choice.
VG said:
I don’t even begin to understand what this means or what this experience is – to feel you have been born in the wrong body.
This is absolutely correct, and for anyone not familiar with the case, I would refer them to this Slate article about a very sadly famous case:
Why did David Reimer commit suicide?
Fern @ 117
I’ve always felt I really should have been born into a much taller and thinner body …..
TexBetsy
LOL!
what.betsy.said.
TexBetsy @ 119
707!!!
Tolerance and hope is what I think we need.
Good night, sweet pups. Peaceful dreams to all.
CTuttle @ 114
PFD flights, E.T.?
CTuttle @ 122
I’m not convinced this is a laughing matter.
Goodnight, demi.
{{{demi}}}
Sorry Fern. Did not mean to offend.
Fern @ 117
I have no experience of it either. All I know of it is from a few personal accounts from transgendered friends, and from a reading of the scientific literature. But, the theme is consistent, in that such people know, as soon as they are able to know, that they are are either male or female, in a way that is opposite to their outward body form.
neurophius @ 115
They claim that 1) it is a life style choice (contrary to all of the scientific literature) and 2) it is prohibited in the Bible (Leviticus to be exact). This latter is another example of selective quotation and enforcement of religious law among the fundies. They have no problem ignoring the prohibition on eating pork and shellfish, or combining dairy and meat. None of them could dress without mixed fibers. Haven’t seen any animal sacrifices at the local Baptist Church and they certainly haven’t lined up to stone Newt Gingrich, Rudy Giuliani, and all the other Republican adulterers.
Sweet bass notes to you RonD.
TexBetsy @ 119
and with a better tan and more money?
me too.
TexBetsy @ 119
Well, lucky you, for only having to undergo that very very small degree of angst. It is much greater for those whose outward and inward gender do not match. Sorry, I’m not in a joking mood about this one.
Night Demi.
DrDick @ 129
They do tend to dwell on the “creating a special class” argument as well.
DD,
Confuse your students well tomorrow.
g’evening everyone, sorry i am late
teddy, if, and it is a big if, the decision is to send the bill that can be passed off for veto, it should only be done with an understanding that this is boosh’s only chance – that the next bill, and all the bills after it, will include the T’s.
on the other hand (can you tell I am a libra) there is a lot to be said for solidarity (as was mentioned upthread). Do you think this is an attempt to, in fact, divide the community hoping to create such a division that the unity of the LGBT is shattered and will take years, if not decades, to be put back together again?
demi @ 135
I always do.
TexBetsy @ 106
Oprah had two trans teens on her program on Friday, and promises an entire transgender family on, iirc, 10/12. She’s really raising the bar on coverage of this issue for Americans, I think.
Valley Girl @ 128
Is it the physical body they are uncomfortable with or the social roles/expectations associated with one gender or the other? I have always seen “transgendering” as related to the limitations placed on both women and men in the kinds of behaviours etc. they are allowed. Course I’m likely wrong.
Fern, laughter can be the best medicine…! Tex and I, meant no offense…!!! 8-(
DrDick @ 129
Does anybody recall the great scene from the West Wing in which President Bartlett confronted a characger who was clearly intended to represent Laura Shlessinger? A classic!
P.S. The bible doesn’t forbid mixing meat and dairy. That is a rabbinic interpretation of the verse that prohibits “boiling a kid in the milk of its mother.” Of course, the “logical” extension of this prohibition is two sets of dishes and silverware, one for meat, and one for dairy.
Teddy, this is disturbing. I saw a vicious and heartbreaking example of transgender discrimination in the ’80s – destroyed the career of a closeted transgendered professional in the south employed by a large national corporation. Didn’t have the status to do anything officially, but did manage to shame (and seriously undermine) the idiots responsible. They were proud of their cleverness in figuring it out.
I’m not looking for a disquisition, but any chance you can tell us generally what the current status of case law is regarding the sexual identity of the transgendered?
CTuttle @ 140
Does not offend me personally, as it does not affect me personally. Just thinking though that this is deadly serious for some.
vg, i disagree – i use humor a lot in ackward situations, just as an ice breaker. what would be lake be without snark? yes, this is a serious matter but i thought tex’s joke helped a lot of folks find a commonality with T folk that they might not have felt before.
here is a bit of a propos Biblical humor that hopefully won’t offend anyone……
http://www.topplebush.com/other79.shtml
CTuttle @ 140
Not to mention the grace with which tex wears the body she has been given….
TeddySanFran @ 137
If Barney does hold the hearings, it would further enlighten many of their plight…!!!
Dammit.
Here, at least have a dill pickle. I’ve been pickling all evening.
biology – all biology.
no more volition or choice or social determinants than eye color.
hope terse does not seem rude (not intended) – bbq’ing
Fern @ 143
Yep.
BigMitch @ 146
True, there is that….
Suzanne @ 144
***
Suzanne: Well said. Making fun of ourselves is almost never out of place, I think.
oddmommy @ 145
ROTHFLMAO!!
Fern @ 139
Fern, I think it is much more elemental and essential than that. Certainly, my impression is that it has absolutely nothing to do with limitations/ social expectations place on men or women, in it is deeply biological. So, not having had the experience myself, I would say that these people simply know KNOW that they are of a different gender than their outward body represents. And, I very much doubt that they make any judgment one way or the other as to the relative benefits of others having a male or female body. They just know that what they have is wrong for them.
BigMitch @ 146
Thank you Mitch, but you may want to ask one of the Texans who has actually seen me walk.
Suzanne has an excellent point. A wedge issue to drive between different parts of the LGBT movement, and thus disspate their influence, at least dissuade some from voting? I suspect their are platform operatives that do little but think up wedge issues-hmmm. If the bill is passed and signed, could the T’s be added later, administratively, or by EO, without the need to revisit the Congress?
Suzanne @ 144
I have a pretty funny one to share, that a friend emailed me over the weekend, but it’s completely inappropriate for this thread. I’ll save it for Late Late Nite.
Marti Abernathey @ 110
Hi Marti! Thanks for coming by this evening. The division I refer to in the post is between HRC and the organizations whose statement they would not join.
I did not know that about Aravosis. Do you think his characterization of the Kill/Pass dichotomy is fair?
Oh, and another question/thought – and I hope this is taken in the spirit of inquiry in which it is meant.
But sex re-assignment surgery and hormone treatments must be fairly recent developments in the grand scheme of things – so was not an option for many, many people in the past who must have also felt they were in a body of the wrong gender. How has this been resolved in other cultures in the past? Surely in cultures/times/places when transgendering was accepted it could only have involved changes in dress and behaviour?
kirk murphy @ 149
Not sure I buy the all biology part, but certainly well established in early childhood. No choice involved at all (it is a done deal before the child is capable of any such choice). this applies to by transgenders and to sexual identity.
thanks burns
All of this takes on a much deeper meaning than it ever did before, even with gay, lesbian, bi, and trans friends.
I can say it in public now, because he has encouraged me to do so. The Elder child, my troubled, beautiful son, is gay and gender-confused at 14. :-/
Valley Girl @ 154
Definitely. While the underlying mechanism are still a mystery, it is clearly set from earliest consciousness of identity.
Welcome Suzanne! Saved the snack for ya.
Suzanne @ 136
Nancy Pelosi’s first campaign for Congress against Harry Britt, a hotly contested primary, is alleged by some to have been homophobic. That said, she has done more than any other Congressperson for the LGBT community.
fern, i am no expert but i see to recall reading how in earlier civilizations, many shamans and other high priests/priestesses were gay, bi, or otherwise non-traditionally sexed. I also recall how these people were respected for their differences and many were thought to be able to communicate with the god(s) – that their gayness was a sign of their higher calling.
of course, that is all from memory and could be totally wrong
How’s he managing with all that Liss?
As wonderful as it is to read about proposed liberties being gained for a change.. It means little if one goes through the motions only to decidedly omit or exclude liberties of others in the process, whether the legislation is symbolic or real. (meaning everyone knows it will get a veto)
TexBetsy @ 164
hmmm cookies with sprinkles – thanks tex
Suzanne @ 144
Suz- thanks for pulling me up short. Obviously this is something I feel very passionately about, and have thought and know about for a long long time. In this instance, I lost my perspective and my humor. Your point is well taken.
TexB- and, I’ve always felt that I should have been born into a body with much bigger boobs! Really, that was the ideal woman, back when I was at a sensitive age!
newtonusr @ 150
Thanks for providing the answer to the West Wing episode referred to in #141, supra.
DrDick @ 160
DD, you’re an Anthropologist, can ya answer Fern’s 159?
DrDick @ 160
as for for transgendered people, I totally “buy” the all biology part.
TexBetsy @ 167
Bleeping confused, but slowly more comfortable with it. The gender thing used to be more of an issue, but now that he’s settling in to considering himself gay, it seems less so. Time will tell, I guess.
BigMitch @ 171
That was an accident, as I hadn’t read your comment and was hunting for the clip. But a happy accident.
Valley Girl @ 170
May I gently remind all of our female firepups that what makes y’all sexy is what’s going on between the … ears.
glad you took it in the spirit i was disagreeing, vg.
(((vg)))
Valley Girl @ 170
Heh, That’s my Ideal Woman!!! (Ducking…)
burnspbesq @ 176
Plus if you were as boob-ish as I am you too would end up with food on your shirt when you spilled something while eating. And never be able to wear white shirts. Course maybe you are tidier than I am.
newtonusr @ 175
Great minds think alike. So do dirty minds, btw.
Fern @ 159
Gender reassignment surgery is indeed a recent development (1960s, I believe). In an odd sidelight, the father of another of my colleagues was one of the first physicians in the US trained in the procedure.
In many cultures around the world, such persons were allowed to adopt a new (often special) identity and live their lives as the gender that felt appropriate. There are the kathoey in Thailand, the hijra in India, and the winkte among the Lakota among many others. Most such roles were only available for male to female transgenders, but some cultures (Navajo, Mohave, and Igbo for instance) also allowed female to male transgenders. In many societies, they are believed to be specially blessed.
thanks, dr dick, for saying what i was trying to earlier about other cultures, past and present, and how many were considered to be specially blessed.
Fern @ 159
wiki
Liss @ 162
The most important thing is that he has the support and love of his family while he figures this all out. God knows, adolescence is hard enough when you fall into the stereotypical patterns.
DrDick @ 181
Mahalo, DD, ya didn’t disappoint…!!! *g*
Since we are baring our souls here, I will share this recent experience.
I went to the doctor last week. He told me he had some bad news. I would have to stop masturbating.
When I asked him “why?” he said:
“Because it’s time for me to examine you.”
Liss @ 162
I hope the place he is living is supportive in providing resources for his challenges.
DrDick @ 181
So is sex-assignment surgery sometimes necessary because there are no other ways available in this culture to live as a transgendered person? Is feeling you are not the right gender sometimes less scary than thinking you are gay?
burnspbesq @ 176
Well, that is an exactly pertinent comment. I have always thought that the brain was the major sexual organ. And, that does support my views about transgendered persons.
And, on a lighter note, even tho being heavily socialized as to the importance of having big boobs, as socialized in my youth, that even without those, I do strongly identify as being female, and have had a certain amount of fun as a result. Oh, Wonderbras were SUCH a great invention. ;)
BigMitch @ 180
Champagne for the house – the rarest of coincidences – Mitch and I agree on more than one thing!
Cheers, dude!
DrDick @ 184
Aye. Take an abused kid with PTSD, give him a high IQ, extremely geeky tendencies, emotional issues, and then make him homosexual on top of it? Wee-haw.
There is absolutely no doubt about my husband and me being there for him, though.
Suzanne @ 182
This is an area where I actually know what I am talking about (at least most of the time).
TeddySanFran @ 187
Actually, completely so. I was a bit surprised on how much so. He’s also not the only gay kid there, which helps.
DrDick @ 192
Should we talk about fishing next?
TexBetsy @ 194
Fish net stockings…?!!! ;-)
Teddy, is there a deadline -other than nancy wanting this resolved in time for her award dinner?
TeddySanFran @ 183
The wiki thing is not entirely accurate, but there are a number of good sources available in print on the topic. Off the top of my head Two Spirit People by Sue Ellen Jacobs, et al. is an excellent source on transgendered identies, homosexuality, etc. among Native Americans. Has the advantage of being written by people who mostly are GLBT and many of whom are also Native.
Liss @ 191
This makes me think he will be fine. Also, just as kids “out-grow” geekiness, adolescence is a time when kids try-out many different personalities. Who will they be when they grow up. He may find out that he is gay, or he may find out that he is not. Impossible to know at this point, but he will survive either way if he knows that you and Mr. are there for him.
Not a very educated opinion, but it is what my gut tells me, based on a little reading.
Smooches to all – DD, TSF, VG etc. – for your patience and information.
liss, baby girl thought she might be gay when her head was being put back together again after her abuse. she eventually decided that she wasn’t but knew that no matter what her decision was (and it was solely her decision) that she had my love and support and that nothing would change. nothing.
About that time.
Goodnight, everyone. The best of all possible tomorrows to you.
Suzanne @ 200
I know how that works, however I’ve thought J was likely to end up gay, or at least bi, since he was 3 years old. I don’t think this is going away any time soon.
Mitch, a superficial joke when we’re talking about involuntary biology for which trans people are routinely murdered mocks “baring one’s soul”.
Prick.
Liss and Suzanne, you both know that I am in a similar situation raising an abused teen. Thus far gender identity has not come up, but it’s a hard road nonetheless. So glad all these teens have us in their lives.
I guess my joke at #186 bombed, but that is not why I am leaving. Gotta go run an errand.
G’nite all.
P.S. Kirk Murphy, Go.Fuck.Yourself.
Here’s my quarter for the Juke box…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMsnqQHOwFg
Kirk, that is harsh and out of line. If you read upthread, there was a dicussion about humor being used to diffuse hard to talk about topics.
Liss @ 202
Sometimes it makes me a little sad that this needs to be a choice and become an identity. That it is so difficult to simply love who we choose to love in the way we choose to love them. And I say this as a woman who finally accepted in advanced middle age the heterosexuality was seriously over-rated.
Nite, Ron and Mitch…!!!
take care Mitch.
TexBetsy @ 204
Darn straight. A friend that I hadn’t seen in five years and just got back into contact with recently has been raving on and on about how lucky my kids are and how good of a parent that I am. I actually respect her opinion, so it’s just blown me away.
All we can do is keep on taking care of our loved ones and taking one day at a time.
Sex-assignment surgery is a continuum from none to entire. It’s important to understand that few of those who recognize their transgenderedness have the resources to completely transition surgically. In that window has grown up a community of persons who transition to the point they are comfortable.
Some trans men (and I speak of the destination gender, as my trans friends have taught me) have “top” (breast reduction) surgery but not “bottom” (genital) surgery. They live their lives comfortably that way, without the goal of “completing” their surgery.
Others are not happy until their surgical transition is complete.
There is also a distinction between old school and new school: older transgenders may happily “pass” in the new gender and have no interest in identifying as, or organizing in a community of, transgenders. Sometimes a younger person will identify politically and socially (as will older persons, of course) with the transgender community his or her entire life, and always identify as a transwoman or transman. Previously, “passing” may have been the ultimate goal; now, for some, it is not.
Again, as Dr Murphy so eloquently stated, I hope that as a non-member of the T community I have stated these distinctions correctly and without giving offense.
Thanks to all at the ‘Lake this evening for the opportunity to discuss this intelligently and with grace.
Liss @ 211
And all three of you have my heart-felt admiration.
Night Ron.
Fern @ 208
Yeah, it makes no sense. Love doesn’t take into account pre-conceived societal notions.
A friend of mine says that he’s sapiosexual.
Mitch, sorry to have challenged you to have reisento the level of empathy.
Liss @ 215
Nice one. How about ambi-sexual?
Fern @ 188
For most of the societies I mentioned, gender reassignment surgery was not possible (it wasn’t possible in the US until the 60s). The hijra in India are an exception as they traditionally removed the entire male sexual apparatus (many also died from it). As for the others, there appears to be some conflation of gender identity and sexual orientation in assigning people to these traditional transgendered categories. There are also instituionalized homosexual roles (especially for men) which are not separate genders in a number of societies. These exist in much of the Middle East, including Iran (despite recent comments on TV) and in Afghanistan (where they are called bedagh). In Iran young men from wealthy families were encouraged to frequent homosexual prostitutes rather than female prostitutes, since they could not get pregnant. In many parts of Afghanistan many young men’s first sexual experience was with the bedagh. The Taliban tried to exterminate them, but they have been making something of a comeback since the Taliban were overthrown.
Suzanne @ 196
I imagine the veto pen will never run out of ink, so — no. ;(
Presumably, it’s also a campaign issue — and a fundraising issue. But I find the need to legislate this week coincident with the HRC gala yet another example of calendar-driven decisions. And Jane Harman has made clear how bad and unnecessary those are, even in areas of national security.
I need to check out for a bit. Have to finish unpacking and figure out what my timesheet for last week looks like. Will be back for Late Late.
Dang, I love this place!
Night RonD.
TexBetsy @ 204
Yep.
BigMitch @ 198
This was the challenge one of the mothers on Oprah spoke of — telling the difference between the phases of adolescence and something life-changing and real. She was a very supportive mom who talked about how her dream of doing girl-things with her daughter was lost at an early age, while she still held out hope that perhaps it was a “phase.” She said she knew it was time to put away those dreams when her now-son started agitating for a double mastectomy at 14. Which, incidentally, he had at 16.
Suzanne @ 200
Suz- I have nothing but anecdotal evidence about this, what other women have told me, based on their experiences, or experiences of what their daughter or niece went through, or just plain opinions of various female friends —- BUT
what I gathered was whether a young woman decides that “really, she prefers to have sex with other women, as opposed to men” and love other women, can depend on the kinds of experience (negative) with respect to men. So, my take- certainly a “social” factor there.
But, this is different of course, that an transgendered person. A woman who choses to have a female partner still identifies herself as female (insofar as I know). So, there’s gender identity, and there’s gender preference.
Kirk, knock it off now!
There are challenges, and there is empathy. Let’s all try to minimize the former and maximize the latter.
DrDick @ 222
I’m currently jumping through all the hurdles necessary, whew, even a FBI background check…!!!
CTuttle @ 228
I didn’t do any of that, but I am a school district employee with background checks for that. I just got a phone call and, the next day, a Cassie. And her brother came along 5 months later.
Fern @ 208
Based on the best available evidence, most of us are not entirely anything sexually. Nor is it merely two dimensional. We all exist at various points within a multidimensional sexual continuum. This is also backed up by primate studies which indicate a comparable sexual diversity there. As the pioneering anthropological primatologist Wilcomb Washburn once said, “primate sexuality is not merely promiscuous, it is positively indiscriminate.” Best descriptions I can give for the basic (biologically given) human sexuality is either Freud’s “polymorphous perversity” or “if it feels good, we’ll do it.” At least that is what I tell my intro class.
DrDick, thank you for your many contributions tonite.
gender identity, according to baby girl’s therapist, is common in child sexual abuse victims. with help from a team of good therapists and family support, baby girl felt safe in making her decisions – ones that i don’t think she has finished making. she is no longer androgynous in appearance and is becoming more comfortable with what she is going to be – whatever that is. i think she may not be done with her decision making about her sexuality but she is no longer confused as to her gender.
Suzanne @ 207
To which I would add — since this is far from the first case of passive aggressive abuse being inflicted around here lately by the resident mental health care professional — physician, heal thyself.
oddmommy @ 233
ding
RBG @ 226
This has challenged me – when one empathises, are you being “empathic” or “empathetic”?
Ed*ard Teller @ 235
kind
A non-existent gay Iranian writes in the Washington Post today:
getting back to teddy’s topic – teddy, what can we do to help?
TexBetsy @ 228
Heh, I’m taking the round-about way… The wife and I are honing in on the Therapuetic needy ones, i.e. BP, Autistic, Crack/Alcohol Fetal Syndrome, etc…
EvilDrPuma @ 24
There is a great bumper sticker begging to be minted/coined? from these comments, not to mention soundbites.
CTuttle @ 239
I have great respect for you both.
TexBetsy @ 228
I used to rail against the inequality of it all. When someone gets pregnant no one does a home study by a social worker, FBI check, 5 references or a statement of faith, 3 years of income tax returns and thousands of dollars.
When I was a foster mother, it was the certification process, returning classes and inspections. I received the scrutiny while those who gave birth just did it.
There were times when I wished that birth parents had to go through some of these hurdles too.
Suzanne @ 237
Well, I suppose writing to one’s Congresscritter that only an inclusive ENDA is acceptable would be a start. I’m looking around the web for petitions and action items — tomorrow, there’s supposed to be another letter from the organizations.
DeeCee-area ‘pups can check Jeremy’s link above for Pride At Work’s planned picket of the HRC gala.
TeddySanFran @ 230
My pleasure. It is an area where I have professional (and personal) interests and expertise. I am also a long time supporter of the GLBT community. I had a friend killed in a gay bashing many years ago and I am still pissed off about it. He was actually the first openly gay person I ever knew (I was 18 when we met) and he did a lot to shape my understanding of homosexuality. I am an anthropologist because I delight in the wondrous diversity of humanity and this is just one more piece.
TeddySanFran @ 212
Teddy, and, important in all of this is that everyone, even those who clearly identify themselves, and forever have, as one gender or the other, with a clear opposite gender preference, never really find a person they can love and feel comfortable with. And, when they do, it may indeed be the case that none of the outward, usually societally promulgated measures apply. Big dick, small dick? Limp dick, hard dick? Screw that. Sex is in the brain. Love is in the brain. To think otherwise is…. well… not… well… it’s not gonna last…
Well, in this time zone we are well into tomorrow so I should pack it in.
You pupsters are wonderful. Thanks again.
And g’night.
night Fern. Sleep well.
(waving to all the leaving sleepy pups)
katymine @ 241
I couldn’t agree more…!!! It would certainly cut down on the burgeoning population in need of our services…!!! ;-)
Heavy late night discussions tonight. Respectful greetings to all.
Suzanne, here’s the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force’s contact-your-critter link.
Suzanne @ 231
I think it is important for both her and you to embrace the idea that it does not have to be either/or. As humans we are capable of loving and being attracted to a wide variety of people. I like to describe sexual orientation as like food tastes. It derives from a complex combination of biological inclinations and cultural learning and produces something we really have little control over. Different people like different things and it is all good. I like spicy food and women. Other people hate spicy food and prefer members of their own sex. Some people are just plain eclectic.
Suzanne, here’s the National Center for Lesbian Rights’ Action Alert, including a phone script to use when calling.
Suzanne, I respectfully and adamantly disagree with you.
Jokes may be funny.
Equating LGBT lethality with penis jokes fails.
How many readers here – who don’t comment – have attempted suicide, thought about suicide, or known suicides – pushed over the line by the “gay” joke in a “safe space”?
[for readers who’ve tried: don’t admit unless you’re filthy rich or on medic-aid]
NO MORE!
You are the mod and my e-friend.
I am 47 years old – I grew up knowing silence is assent.
The WWII vets knew that.
The woman from Skokie who married me (for awhile) knew that.
No silence on my end when life-threatening struggles are mockingly “lumped” in with a penis joke.
Too many suicide “failures” – and completions – for me to ever give this a pass on anyone’s watch -even someone I respect and admire.
“Jokes” like Mitch’s kill.
No apologies for pointing that out – even to friends and respected colleagues.
No apologies for looking hard at why such cruelty happens.
Next time one of my trans patients can’t take it any more and offs themselves ’cause of a “faggot” joke – or the rapes that come from it….
who among you can make it better?
Silence is assent.
William S. Shirer taught me all I want to know aout that.
thanks teddy
thanks, dr (pause) dick – baby girl knows that i love her unconditionally. all i ask is that she be happy, no matter what she is, as long as she is happy, i will be too.
TexBetsy @ 235
Human. I just gave my lecture on the first appearance of empathy in human ancestors (in Neanderthal and the other archaic Homo sapiens). It is a universal quality in modern (as in the last 200,000 years) humans, found in all cultures. What separates us from all other animals (and from our earlier ancestors) is that we take care of those who cannot care for themselves.
DrDick @ 255
except republicans of course
What separates us from all other animals (and from our earlier ancestors) is that we take care of those who cannot care for themselves.
ding, dr dick
Incredible dinner with Ms. ET. Locally raised leg-of-lamb, with rosemary and garlic sprigs and slivers, roasted on a spit; antipasto plate with beet-chevre salad, deviled eggs with pesto filling, last of our greens, many tiny cherry tomatoes. Almost 100% local and from our garden except – Heitz Bros. 2002 Grignolino….
We’re trying to adjust to both kids being gone to college. Dinners like this aren’t the tough part.
Ed*ard Teller @ 258
Sounds lovely ET.
Night Fern.
CTuttle @ 248
My thought is that they might value their children more.
hello mods..
a comment seems to be holding at 253/10:44
TexBetsy @ 255
I was talking about humans, not troglodytes.
TexBetsy,
I liked your reply to my #235 almost as much as I like your food pictures.
katymine @ 260
That would be more secondary in nature, it would deter many that should never occur, although all life is precious…!!! 8~)
Ed*ard Teller @ 263
well thank you!
kirk, working on it.. hang on
TeddySanFran @ 58
When is good ole Barney up for election – 2008?
Well as much as I have enjoyed this conversation, it is rapidly approaching the witching hour here in the northern Rockies and I have to earn my living tomorrow. Take care and enjoy the snark. Equal rights and protection under the law for everyone.
newspaperbrat @ 266
Yep. Every two years.
G’nite, DD!!!
CTuttle that is why my house was full of older teens, at one time I had my own three and 6 “foster” kids. I was the last stop between living on the street and a group home. It used to break my heart that these kids were throw away kids.
I was happy to be that spot in their lives between those difficult teens years and adulthood. Adding gender identity and orientation to this mix was always so much more fun.
sleep well dr dick
katymine @ 271
You are a gem.
(But we already knew that.)
Maybe somebody brought it up here already, but Howie’s got a great post up on the GOP conclave in Salt Lake City over the weekend that dooms 9/11 Rudeee.
The meeting of about 50 leaders, including Focus on the Family’s James Dobson, the Family Research Council’s Tony Perkins and former presidential candidate Gary Bauer, who called in by phone, took place at the Grand America Hotel during a gathering of the Council for National Policy, a powerful shadow group of mostly religious conservatives. James Clymer, the chairman of the U.S. Constitution Party, was also present at the meeting, according to a person familiar with the proceedings.
The secretive– even paranoid– group of neo-fascist politicians agreed that if Giuliani wins the nomination, they’ll bolt and take the South with them, dooming any already far-fetched hopes Giuliani has to win the presidency
katymine @ 270
Heh, Never a dull moment…!!! *g*
TexBetsy @ 272
Actually I was just plain nuts…. house full of teenage boys with one daughter and me going through menopause…. So now it seems weird with just me and Miss Dog living here now.
The hardest part was relearning how not to buy groceries by the pallet load and cook huge portions.
katymine @ 275
I was going to say – have stock in General Mills?
I joined Costco back in the 1988, early member buying food by the case and using it too…
Alright… I need to get to bed… Maybe tomorrow I can schedule my surgery….. AND I have been a very good girl all weekend…. no lifting, nothing strenuous and no further bleeding!
Saturday afternoons here include a full house of teenagers. Great fun, tons of food consumed, a bit messy, but it keeps me young.
katymine – you are a good person and i admire you greatly for all that you have done.
take good care of yourself katymine.
While the GLBT community seems at most times to be inclusive and protective of the transgendered, it grieves me to know that the overall progressive side of the political spectrum is not so sympathetic and open-minded.
I served as a moderator for a major progressive forum site — and it was stated policy that slurs accusing Ann Coulter of being a transgendered male were entirely acceptable. Only if they got sexually explicit were the posts deserving of ban.
Just a few weeks ago, I ran into another, very similar insult posted as a graphic on DownWithTyranny. Something about Ann Coulter using her speaking-tour proceeds to buy hormones.
What the authors/posters of these pieces are saying is “to be transgendered, especially secretly so, is inherently insult-worthy and to be despised.”
I find such behavior to be disgusting and reprehensible.
Many in the homosexual majority of the GLBT community don’t even realize is that many of the insults directed at them have nothing to do with their sexual preference, but instead call their gender identity into question. (For example, gay men being called “Miss” or ‘bi*ch’.)
Absolutely, it’s true that sexual orientation and gender identity are two different things. The first is who you want, the second is who you are. (Overly simplifying, of course.) The problem though is that even as gays and lesbians become more accepted in society (despite right-winger attempts to shape laws and norms to the contrary), the transgendered are becoming ever more marginalized. Even persecuted.
Let’s consider, for example, the stupid “bathroom panic” defense, constantly brought up by the opposition. Why? Somehow they think there’s some kind of sexual predatorism going on. Which, of course, completely ignores the fact that gay men can still use men’s rooms and lesbians use women’s rooms…and that most studies have shown that the transgendered’s sexual orientations have pretty much the same spectrum as the rest of the population. So that post-op transsexual woman in the women’s room is about 90% likely to prefer men anyway.
The gays and lesbians don’t realize but a loophole has just been created that lets them be persecuted — not for their sexual orientation, but for their gender presentation. “Oh no, Mr. Smith, we’re not firing you because you’re gay. We’re firing you because you dress…well…too feminine. The tailored shirts and ascots are making people uncomfortable.” Or, “Sorry Ms. Jones, but because you refuse to wear skirts like the rest of the female staff, you’re fired.”
But back to my original point: The transgendered have unique challenges, and unfortunately also all too frequently the lack of respect from progressives. They’re treated as disposable, as freakish, and their very nature trotted out mindlessly as an insult to throw at the authoritarian-conservative enemy.
Until we stop our own vile behavior, how can we even begin to expect the opposition to respect us? ALL OF US. The transgendered included.
Nite, Katy!!!
G’night, Katy.
CTuttle @ 276
Heh, Never a dull moment…!!! *g*
Reminds me of what one of my tuba students said to me at a party we held for her and her classmates before she headed out of state for grad school – [paraphrasing]”I’m so glad I live in my generation where we don’t have sexual boundaries anything like yours did.”
not bleeding is a good thing, katymine
very well put becca morn
katymine @ 277
All kinds of love, katymine!
OT
Beach Impeach is going to be on the 7th in Berkeley. Anyone else going? It is at the end of university at the bay. I’m taking the train from Sac.
I hope to see some of the pups there. I will be the one wearing the white gardenia.
TexBetsy @ 278
That’s almost a nightly occurrence, all the teens seem to think it’s the local Y!!!
BeccaMom, FDL does not permit slurs involvng transexuals, just as it does not permit slurs of gays, races, or religions.
CTuttle @ 291
I’m fine unless it rains and i can’t send them to the pool or basketball court. My whole “house” is 4 rooms, inhabited by 2-4 people at any given time.
CTuttle @ 289
I miss the teen years with my kids. Sort of. It was hard and fun. We were the go to house. Some times there were ten kids sleeping in my basement. I like that my girls are women now but I miss the intimacy of having a full family at home.
Becca Morn, welcome! I agree with you that the progressive movement requires continuing education about transgender, and I hope tonight’s discussion is part of that. You will be pleased to know that such conversations as you’ve seen elsewhere, specifically regarding Ann Coulter, are prohibited at FireDogLake.
I am very pleased that tonight’s conversation managed to avoid any such attempts; probably a thank-you to the moderators is in order here. These can be challenging conversations for our great mod squad.
I hope you will continue to participate in our conversations on this subject — your perspective is valuable and very much appreciated. I just want you to know that you’re among allies who share your view that there’s nothing funny about the challenges transgenders face and no amount of idiotic nervous joking makes those challenges any funnier.
folks, my ethics implore you to refresh
i must (this is for me) ask you to see my 253ish..
(and Suzanne and mods, I thank your warmth and friendship for the discussion)
pups…
my LGBT young adults came to SF ’cause they were hated at home…
they got to SF if their suicide attempts didn’t “succeed” first.
our words prompt some to death.
Why?
TexBetsy @ 291
Heh, Didn’t ya just have forty days and nites of it?!!!
Good night my friends.
Great post Teddy.
TeddySanFran @ 295
Teddy, the filth that spews forth whenever she opens her mouth is ample reason to despise Ann Coulter. No need to go beyond that.
Oldest girl used to bitch about how not fair it was that she had the ‘cool mom’ because when she would try to say something negative about me, her friends would disagree and usually take ‘my side’ of the disagreement.
Thanks, pups, for helping get Diane Benson over $6,000 at her ActBlue page today!
Diane was the first of now many people calling for Congress to open an investigation of Don Young’s illegal Florida Coconut Road earmark insertion, and will be working this week to help the Dems who have objected to Rush Limbaugh’s categorization of our soldiers who disagree with current war policy as “phony soldiers” to focus their efforts on helping our serving military and veterans.
off to bed
sleep well – if you see this or if you don’t
….shall make us…
oh, nevermind.
Suzanne @ 299
Doesn’t get much better than that. Bet she doesn’t complain now.
Suzanne @ 299
TexTeen reports the same situation. :)
TexBetsy @ 298
Nite, Ma’am! Sleep well!!!
woohoo, et – sorry i could not help tonight – the first doesn’t come until tomorrow and neither will my check
Suzanne @ 305
ET hearts Suzanne. So does Diane…
Any who claim “moral” opposition to rights for the transgendered should be required to speak to issues concerning those whose gender was medically reassigned due to physical accident.
I’m recalling a then well-publicized case of 2 or 3 male babies effectively castrated in hospital by a defective circumcision machine. If memory serves, at least one of those babies was gender reassigned at the behest of the parents.
TexBetsy @ 303
Same with my Wife, I’m a different animal, tho, since I try to impose some semblance of order, so I don’t get that special connotation…!!!
Suzanne @ 238
Step 1: Identify the congress critters who will fall off if the act includes protection for Trans.
hey mitch, teddy posted a couple of links upthread – one even has a script for making the calls – points to hit.
TeddySanFran @ 230
Here! Hear!
((((((Dr. Dick)))))
(((((TeddySF)))))
BigMitch @ 310
This is exactly the problem with the leadership’s official whip count that Frank cites in excluding transgenders: it’s a secret. Much better to have an on-the-record vote!
Hey, y’all — I’m in Late Late all by myself. C’mon up.
SunnyNobility @ 307
Strange how the world uses gender and sexually to control and fix people. What is circumcision for anyway? Why would you put your baby boy’s penis in a circumcision machine? The flip side is not letting people modify their bodies because…… well I can’t come up with a good answer to that one. When people want to take their own lives into their own hands why can’t they be left alone. And why is it that the men in power yell the loudest and hide the hardest? Fuckery. Mean fuckery. It is the attempted colonialization of our souls.
Kirk Murphy said – after being released from mod (?) – How many readers here – who don’t comment – have attempted suicide, thought about suicide, or known suicides – pushed over the line by the “gay” joke in a “safe space”?
This is SO important, and part of why I’m reluctant to answer TSF’s earlier question about some of my personal experiences. But it is probably impossible to measure how high a percentage of teen suicides are related to sexual identity issues.
Both Ms. ET and I brought our daughter and son through scouting. My son got to the Webelos level at the time the court decisions involving gay scoutmasters saw their “resolution.” Within weeks, at meetings and campouts, the typical around-the-fire passing-a-bottle around talks of the dads (after the kids were asleep in their tents) seemed to gravitate on this issue in a nasty way. I soon pulled ET, Jr. out of scouting, as it only got worse.
The happy homo jokes of my childhood 50 years ago were one thing, but I couldn’t handle the downward spiral.
Darkblack,
I have dreams of crreating a solar-powered steam-engine skiff for our lake. It would be terribly inefficient, as the steam engine is unnecessary, but so, so cool…
Niters all you amazing pups – and thanks Teddy for an important and hopeful late and late nite – a memorable kick off for the new week.
TeddySanFran @ 295
Thanks for the welcome, Teddy. I’ve actually been hanging ’round FDL for quite a while now; I just don’t often comment.
One of the things I’ve found interesting, for example, about the “Ann the Mann” phenomena is how it often gets going. Folks, rightly so, despise the hateful things Ms. Coulter says. Then it’s noted how she blatantly uses sexual displays to distract (hence the revealing little black cocktail dresses for morning interview programs)…and then it comes. Someone makes a joke about her adam’s apple being big, or some other slur relating to whether she’s actually a woman. There’s a round of laughing…and then someone has to top that.
It’s like people keep wanting to one-up each other on how much they hate her…and then the hate spills over into questioning her gender identity, as if that’s the worst thing that can be imagined.
I expect this sort of thing from the right-wing hatemongers. They demonize anybody who diverges from their norms (except themselves, where every hypocrisy is permitted and excused). When it happens on our side though, we become the very thing we hate: Intolerant of those who seem different or unusual.
As I said in my comment above, it saddens me how often so-called Progressives do it. And worse, excuse it by calling it “commonplace” or “not that big a deal.” (I’ve been deeply gratified to see that TG-related slurs aren’t tolerated on FDL.)
I’ve a good many transgendered friends (especially when I lived in the SF Bay area; I’m now in India on a program of spiritual study), both MtF and FtM, and in every instance they’re the bravest people I know. It takes incredible courage to say to the entire world, “Yes, you’ve assigned me this gender. I am otherwise.” I don’t know how they do it.
As with the gays and lesbians though, even more so for the transgendered, they can’t always fight off the despair. Suicide rates are abominably high — and I too wonder just how often they happen because of the “one too many” overheard ‘joke’.
I’ve also found it interesting how, when out of sheer curiosity I’ve reviewed the terms of every single health insurance policy I’ve had in my adult life — every single one of them specifically disallowed gender reassignment treatment (including counseling), medications, and surgery.
That’s another side-effect of dropping our trans-friends from the ENDA train: With that non-discrimination language, it would’ve been possible to challenge the legality of that exclusion in employer-provided health insurance. Now, it continues to be something granted or withheld (usually denied) at a whim. Now they remain without legal recourse.
Anyway, thanks again. And cheers from India…which has its own fascinating view on the mutability of gender, especially among certain Hindu deities.
Bush will veto ENDA with or without trans protection, and there’s not enough votes for an override. So it’s always been a symbolic vote.
Not to say symbolism isn’t important — being willing to toss aside the most vulnerable members of the LBGT communities without even an attempt to line up more support sure sends a signal to the pro-bigotry side: we’re willing to cave even before things get serious.
Rather than cutting loose trans people without warning, Frank and company could have said, “hey folks we need more votes, go lobby your representatives.”
This isn’t “half a loaf is better than none,” this is “You can starve as long as I get mine.”
As far as waiting politely…
Did gays and lesbians “wait their turn” when they pushed for inclusion in civil rights legislation in the ’70s, when they were told doing so might harm efforts by racial minorities?
Did they “wait their turn” when they demanded funding for HIV/AIDS research and finding a cure for it get higher priority in the ’80s, when established groups felt that doing so would take badly-needed money away from other fatal diseases?
Did they “wait their turn” when they demanded that their rights be acknowledged and respected in the ’90s?
Did they “wait their turn” in 2003 when they pushed for marriage equality in the face of warnings that it could have a disastrous impact before a critical presidential election?
And color me cynical, but “we’ll come back for you later” hasn’t had a particularly good track record as Teddy has pointed out. If trans protections aren’t part of ENDA they aren’t likely to be passed for years, if not decades — or possibly ever. Remember, the rationale for the LGBT communities banding together is that individually none of us have that much clout.
But if any of this doesn’t convince you, think about this: omitting gender identity leaves a huge loophole to be exploited by careful bigots, e.g. “We didn’t fire you because you’re gay/lesbian, we fired you because you’re nelly/butch.”
Likewise, if LGB folks are willing to abandon trans folks because “it’s got nothing to do with me,” there’s no reason hetro folks can’t abandon LGB folks for the same reason. So we might as well not bother with all those Gay-Straight Alliances in schools.
As Martin Luther King Jr. said, in the long run it would be the arguments of our enemies, but rather the silence of our friends, that will be remembered.
That piece about Aravosis and Americablog is misleading in the extreme. Barely a few hours after he had written that post outlining the “choices”, John wrote and came down four square behind eliminating transgendered Americans from the bill. He even went so far as to start using “GLB” to refer to the community rather than “GLBT” as if trasngendered people were not and had never really been a part of the equation. He even began to systematically stifle dissent by banning people with whom he dissagreed. Unfortunately this isn’t the first time he has taken such a position as it is one he has advocated since the legislation was introduced.
This is not something I made up, it’s all right there and in the comments, (the ones he hasn’t removed that is), John Aravosis, while quite happy to have transgendered support when it benefitted him, was too willing to throw that part of the community under the bus when push came to shove. Now I haven’t been posting this all weekend on blogs but you mentioned him in your post and in far too good a light. The truth about Americablog is much, much more ugly and I for one won’t allow a bigot to be praised and granted credit where none is due. Not without standing up and saying something.
This really relates to the previous post but since comments are not responded to once another post is up, here I go totally OT.
Partitioning countries is the legacy of colonial kickbacks by the losers – those who failed in their imperial designs. We have not given credit to countries which have picked up the pieces and have made a go with that historical legacy.
The question I really have is what the hell are the US legislators doing in passing resolutions that violate the sovereignty of another country and ignoring the pressing needs at home that need to be addressed.
I am not and don’t ever want to be US American but the US system creates a potentate with too much power.
I have spent a lot of years working in the USA, mostly as an Australian Federal Public Servant, seconded to the UN and various other of its agencies. I loved the natives I met outside work but they were self selected and I despaired of the utter inanity of the US media.
I have retired now on medical grounds but I am still compos mentis and do consultancies which are fun.
Please realise that the continued occupation of Afghanistan `that has delivered so little to the people has created a dynamic that has pitted the the Taliban as a nationalist resistance force against foreign occupation.
You are entitled to demonise perceived enemies but that’s no way to ‘win’ the unwinnable.
After reading this excellent thread last night, it’s interesting to see Woman Suing IRS Over Sex-Change Tax Claims in the WaPo this morning.