Well, well, well … our Senate has once again proven their foreign policy chops with two new nonbinding resolutions. One took a shot at Iran, providing more talking points for George and Dick’s march to war … and was quickly followed by a return serve from the Iranian parliament.
The other grand diplomatic gesture was the passage of Joe Biden’s Have It My Way resolution supporting the partition of Iraq. Couched in concern troll phrases, this partition idea seems to be the pet “But you promised us a pony!” policy of the very serious folk in DC. They didn’t apparenty bother to check with either people who actually know about Iraq or … with the Iraqi people (but then why should they … clearly a bunch of smart guys and gals in DC know much better than anyone who actually lives there.)
The Biden resolution was about as big a hit as the Lieberman/Kyl posturing.
First we have Reidar Visser who points out that Biden’s plan violates the Iraqi constitution:
This is one area where Biden’s ideas clearly violate the Iraqi constitution: any attempt on the part of the US to identify “major factions” would be a top–down, externally imposed solution on a matter in which the Iraqis themselves have already designed bottom–up mechanisms. Biden does not seem to appreciate the fact that federalist pioneers among the Iraqis have always warned against federalism based on ethnicities: in their opinion, federalism based on geographical, non-sectarian criteria could conceivably serve as national “glue”; conversely, and with the exception of the Kurds and the Shiite faction that happens to be closest to Iran, Iraqi supporters of federalism have always condemned ethno-sectarian variants of federalism as a giant leap towards partition.
(snip)
At the heart of this contradictive piece of legislation lie several more fundamental misunderstandings about Iraq among the many Biden plan supporters whose panegyrics adorn the senator’s website and are construed as evidence of the plan’s great potential. Take for instance Henry Kissinger’s suggestion that “a wiser course would be to concentrate on the three principal regions”. He actually seems to believe that these regions already exist! Similarly, another prominent Biden supporter, David Brooks, recently used the story of the Iraqi politician Shadha al-Musawi as inspiration for an enthusiastic defence of ethnic federalism which was published in The New York Times – the only tiny problem being that Musawi herself is an avowed enemy of the idea of a soft partition of Iraq. (snip – but read the full article for a discussion of Sen Brownback’s Iraqi history lesson in support of the resolution.)
All in all the Biden amendment is an alarming but useful numerical indication of the level of support for an “ethnic” approach to Iraqi politics in the US Senate (the supporters included presidential candidate Hillary Clinton), as well as a reminder of the remarkable unfamiliarity among even elite US politicians with the finer points of Iraqi legislation on federalism. It does not bode well for the future that the potential successors to President Bush seem to converge on a scheme that would be even more unpalatable to the Muslim world than Washington’s current policy.
Next we had the Arab League commenting on the new plan:
Ali al-Jaroush, the head of the Arab relations department at the Cairo-based league, said the idea was “hostile to Arab interests” and the best response would be to help the Iraqi people drive occupying forces out of the country.
(snip)
Jaroush of the Arab League, which represents all 22 Arab governments, said he was surprised the U.S. Senate had failed many times to pass a resolution on withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq, while the Biden amendment passed at the first attempt.
“The international community has started to understand the truth of U.S. aims in the region and to see through the false claims about weapons of mass destruction and pursuing Al Qaeda,” the Arab League official added.
Finally in his Friday Sermon, Sheikh Abdel Mahdi al-Karbalaie, a representative of the Grand Ayatollah Al Sistani:
warned against proposals to divide Irak along ethnic and sectarian lines as a way out of the crisis facing Irak and cautioned Irak’s neighbours against supporting such schemes as they would negatively affect “their own security and stability sooner or later.”
(snip)
In his condemnation of the proposal he said that it was in the interest of all Irakis to live safely in a unified Irak consisting of Arabs, Turkmen, and other ethnic groups, of Muslims – Sunni and Shia, of Christians, Sabians, Yezhidi, he called on all the sons of Irak to work to extricate Iraq from its ordeal, and called for the security agencies to attack any armed group, whatever their affiliation to withdraw Iraq from the cycle of violence.
Speaking to Iraq’s neighbors he said:
“It is in the interest of these nations, that Irak emerge from its ordeal, and to seeking to maintain the unity, stability and security of Irak, and not to give the projects a chance or to adopt them.”
He pointed out that such projects if implemented would affect their own security and stability “sooner or later” because if implemented, such a project would lead to more strife, would the deepen the crisis within the country, would create more chaos, which would affect neighbouring countries.
Along with his warning on Partition plans:
He noted that many citizens and officials had tried to discourage the Americans from supporting armed groups without success. He called on them to renew their pressure on the Americans to halt this because they were using double standards and this method would not protect the citizenry but instead would increase the killings in mixed areas as the members of these non-government armed groups attack members of other communities leading to more more bloodshed and the displacement of people from their homes. That this policy being carried out by the Americans led to increased sectarian hostility and further exacerbation of the crisis.
Just another week of learning how not to make friends and influence people. Heckuva job, heckuva job.
Update: Cholera continues to spread in Iraq – please consider sending support to the Red Crescent to help their efforts to help people across Iraq.
Also, Avaaz.org is aiming for 1 Million signatures on their petition in support of the people of Burma- if you haven’t signed yet, please do. The petition and lots of information are here.
Photo:A US soldier looms over a women selling cucumbers in Baquba. The US military has put down to its “war on terror” the deaths of civilians in a series of airstrikes in Baghdad and southern belts this week that also killed a senior Al-Qaeda leader in Iraq.(AFP/Alexander Nemenov)
h/t Jerid
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Siun!
Siun, Excellent Post!!!
Evening! I’m having a bit of flakiness with my connection here so … fingers crossed!
Torture and rape reported in Iraqi children prisons
That is the new picture emerging from the U.S.-led ‘liberation’ of a country that has been bleeding since U.S. and allies invaded it in 2003.
The children languish in prisons administered by Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki’s government. It seems the only story of success U.S. invaders and their Iraqi lackeys can boast of is the construction of numerous prisons now available across the country.
http://www.azzaman.com/english…..fname=news2007-09-30kurd.htm
UN: Severe hardships in Gaza if Israel carries out sanctions
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/S…..e/ShowFull
‘Many don’t believe in Iran sanctions’
Many nations, including Security Council members, do not believe sanctions can prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear arms, said David Harris of the American Jewish Committee during the UN General Assembly session last week.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/S…..e/ShowFull
OK KIddo – thanks for the Azzaman link … though it brings more shame … Azzaman is a good source of info and interesting viewpoints from inside Iraq.
Sounds like the natives over there are thinking clearly. Biden should be run out of our party for even proposing partition by US of Iraq, imo. And that goes for any other congresscritter who voted for such madness.
EPU’d from Wednesday night:
jayt says:
September 26th, 2007 at 6:14 pm
may I just take this opportunity to say that Biden’s partition plan is fucking lunacy?
thank you.
couldn’t resist: On topic and maybe the furthest removed EPU ever?
Bolton: Attack Iran, ‘remove’ its leader
Former US ambassador to the United Nations John Bolton told Tory delegates in Britain Sunday that efforts by the UK and the EU to negotiate with Iran had failed and that he saw no alternative to a pre-emptive strike on suspected nuclear facilities in the country.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/S…..e/ShowFull
I think most of Congress has the possibility of being tried for war crimes.
I wish that wasn’t so.
I wish they could see what’s going to happen as well as we can.
I wish we ould get Cheney imnpeached and out of office permanently.
I am not wishing for ponies, just a peaceful way out of this mess.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 10
Oh goody! That paragon of diplomacy, John Bolton, has thrown his two cents into the discussion. How is it possible that a group of people who have gotten everything so completely, consistently WRONG, still be looked at as experts on anything?
jayt @ 9
Great job! Biden’s plan is nothing more than being the Democratic candidate for ‘08.
OT Loo Hoo- left you something downstairs.
Good evening, Siun. Just a quick drive-by to thank you for all the caring and thought you put into reporting and analyzing this ongoing tragedy.
See everyone later.
I thought this NYT OP ED on Iranian bloggers response to the UN last week was ..interesting…
Blogging Ahmadinejad in Tehran
snip
Valley Girl @ 14
Nice to know. Thanks.
Thanks Ron …
and Eureka! what an interesting link!
C&L has Sy Hersh up (via Marcy)
John Dean thinks:
“If a Rudy Giuliani were to be elected,” Dean said, “he would go even farther than Cheney and Bush in their worst moments.”
ES- OT- email update for you w/ more info
What would we do without C&L – they always get the stuff we need!
And, Siun, thanks for another outstanding post with a huge amount of backup research and great links. Sorry not to have said this before I posted 2 OT comments- I was catching up with time warp. Your work here is always first rate. Thank you so much.
Lahoma brought this to my attention. She likes me to be fair.
Sen. Hillary Clinton’s strong lead with Democratic female voters has undermined the media myth that women might be toughest on a Clinton candidacy. But there’s one group of women Clinton is still having a hard time with: female pundits. I winced Sunday when I read Maureen Dowd calling Clinton a “nag,” and Joan Vennochi, in the Boston Globe, comparing Clinton’s suddenly controversial laugh to the cackle of “hens” and “witches.”
http://www.salon.com/opinion/w…..1/clinton/
Loo Hoo. @ 13
Senator ‘HairPlug’ has never had a ‘plan’ that was not all about him and nothing….nothing else.
Arrogant asshole.
Siun @ 22
I went away for a week with very limited (expensive) internet access. When I got home, I left a comment at C&L about how much I missed reading the blog. I got a personal email from John thanking me for my words. What could be better?!
Valley Girl @ 23
doubles. Siun, you really have a heart. It is so refreshing these days.
More humor.
US sticking to diplomacy on Iran, says UK envoy
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/…..42,00.html
Oklahoma kiddo @ 4
Thanks here another of interest.
http://last-of-iraqis.blogspot.com/
jopac
Did you see that Bill Clinton would be happy if his office were in the White House basement?
Got a link for the Biden plan? I always thought it was a federation of geographic regions, and not, as presented here, a plan for partition.
Eureka Springs @ 8
Here we go again. If we don’t like something one of the Democratic candidates said we want to run them out of the party. I first worked for a presidential candidate in 1976, when my congressman ran against Carter. He had seen this before, and I’ve seen it ever since. Mo Udall used to say that when Democrats form a firing squad they stand in a circle.
In addition, if you think that “proposing partition” is grounds for doing that, you shouldn’t be aiming at Biden, because that is not what he proposes, which he himself keeps saying.
And then, Loo Hoo @ 13, we have the obligatory theme of “he is insincere and ambitious because I disagree with him.” Why is that necessary? They’re all ambitious, every single one of them, and they all want to be President. Good for them. It’s a hard job, and if someone has the guts to offer themselves we should thank them even if we aren’t voting for them.
Siun, you quote Reidar Vissar. I will risk ridicule by saying I have never heard of him/her, however this person is wrong on several counts. It makes Biden sound like a wingnut to say that David Brooks supports him, but Biden is no wingnut and Brooks definitely is not a supporter.
Biden’s plan does not call for imposition from the top down. It is not contrary to the Iraqi constitution, and while there may be “finer points” of Iraqi legislation that the chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee needs to be schooled on by someone more knowledgeable, those finer points apparently escape the Iraqi parliament.
Nowhere in the original and quoted assaults on Biden above do I find any alternative that is better, or any acknowledgement that the Iraqis are dividing themselves along sectarian lines as we speak. It may be preferable to have a strong central government. Biden says that is not going to happen in our lifetimes, whether we like it or not. He is trying to propose an alternative, which may or may not work. But it is at least an alternative to “stay the course,” or to “pull out now” and let the horror we have created engulf the Iraqis without the means to flee, like the millions who already have fled. It is also an alternative to whatever the three frontrunners were saying the other night when they intimated that we could well be there in 2013, but without any coherent reason why that should be so.
Loo Hoo. @ 30
Is that Olly & Fawns old room
Loo Hoo. @ 26
Hi everyone, can’t stay too long but have to say I love the crowd at C&L too; very good company and the site is monitored for people who like to pick fights (trolls?).
Was wondering if Biden was informed regarding the flawed strategy (& legality) in this partitioning of Iraq?…
Perhaps it would be better to work with Iraq’s religious leaders regarding the fate of Iraq rather than trying to tell them how to run their country…..
See you later, have fun at the lake….
Bumpersticker ;-)
More
Susan in Iowa — Thank you for your comment. I thought I was in a parallel universe.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 20
Having just finished Charlie Savage’s book this afternoon, I am inclined to think that Mr. Dean has underestimated just how high Bush and Cheney have set the bar.
BigMitch @ 36
You are. And so are we.
Mitt wants to be your prez.
Mitt’s Mission
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21…../newsweek/
Oh… and Hillary does too.
Susan – Visser is one of the leading experts on Iraq, particularly Southern Iraq. He is Norwegian and has been deep in Iraqi studies for many years.
Perhaps you could engage the issues raised without the unnecessary swipes at other participants in the conversation? We all tend to learn more that way.
Mitch – I use teh Google: Biden for President
Susan in Iowa @ 32
The problem with your whole arguement is that it is not for the United States to decide what Iraqis should do with their country.
Precisely LooHoo …
with the majority of Iraqis opposed to this plan, the idea that we would impose it on them is just another step in a long line of refusing to respect Iraqi sovereignty
Susan in Iowa – I simply find it to be bat guano insane that anyone of US/Biden/Hillary/Lieberman/Cheney will excuse our designs on Iraq other than apologizing, leaving completely, and immediately. Any other nice polite conversation coddles ongoing genocide.
But hey, I support Kucinich so we both like our underdogs.
Siun @ 41
The link you gave says the plan is: “Sen. Joe Biden’s plan for a federal system in Iraq.” [my bold] That doesn’t sound like a plan for partition. Hope this explains why I am so confused.
Siun @ 43
I happen to think you are correct that a majority of Iraqis are not interested in any “solution” that involves partition, but … what the hey, let’s flesh out a plan and submit it to a referendum. If we’re correct, the results of that referendum will bury this noxious idea once and for all.
burnspbesq @ 46
We should all listen very carefully to what Burnsesq says. Two months ago he correctly predicted that there would only be one NY team in the post-season. Sympathies, my friend.
Juan Cole on Partition:
drational over at TNHurrah had a good word for Biden’s beloved “partition” of Iraq: segregation. Ring any bells, Senators??
Here’s a link to an important article that I highlighted yesterday which correctly foreshadows a looming battle at the U.N. (and behind a lot of closed doors before then) between those with the best interests of the Iraqi people at heart, and those – both Iraqi and American – simply out to increase their own power and personal wealth:
Http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200….._mandate_1
That U.N. Security Council Resolution that still provides legal cover under international law for our ‘non-occupation occupation’ of Iraq is #1546. As the article indicates, its “mandate” expires on 12/31/07. Indications are that the Iraqi Council of Ministers (the parliament), at least as of June, was prepared to refuse to extend the U.N. mandate for our presence in Iraq, and thus our legal cover for staying “uninvited” under international law, beyond the end of this year.
Remember: the current corrupt, undemocratic, Iran-aligned Iraqi “government” of cabinet members and ministers that our public Armed Forces and our taxpayer-funded private corporate army are now, and have been, protecting so long as they do our bidding do as they are told. Part of that “bidding” includes asking for an extension from the U.N. Security Council for our “mandated” presence in Iraq (thus the article’s opening comments from “Foreign Ministry officials” first published in a Saudi-owned British newspaper). This is where push comes to shove between the American Zone al-Maliki government and the people of Iraq and many in their parliament (whom our Congress loves to mock as do-nothing layabouts rather than questioning the underlying reasons for their actions or lack thereof).
Who will the U.N. listen to? Is the U.N. Security Council simply another American puppet itself these days? Appearances would seem to indicate as much. Especially considering how recklessly the U.N. turned over, shortly after our illegal invasion, the $12 billion of Iraq oil-sale funds, held in trust for a decade for the Iraqi people, to a General Tommy Franks-announced, Pentagon-created phantom entity not sanctioned or authorized by the U.S. (as the Constitution defines it) or the United Nations:
http://www.vanityfair.com/poli…..ntPage=all
This excellent new Vanity Fair article is sickening reading, and damns our Congress all over again. That C.P.A. under the “control” of Rumsfeld’s Pentagon and Paul Bremer simply squandered $9 billion of the $12 billion in Iraqi funds once held in trust for the Iraqi people by the U.N. The last thing the U.N. can claim to have been doing for the last four years is looking out for the best interests of the people of Iraq.
Where the hell are the Congressional hearings about Iraq? Are the only people knowledgeable about the situation Americans Petraeus, Crocker, Gates, Negroponte and Pace? Why are the truthtellers relegated to the “Democratic Policy Commitee” as though the Democrats are still in the minority?? That DPC hearing from a week ago, by the way, on Blackwater, and Iraq fraud whistleblowers is not to be missed, and I believe is still available streaming via their website:
http://democrats.senate.gov/dpc/
This manufactured “authority” calling itself the C.P.A. is also the source of Order #17 – carried over into “Iraq’s” new government – which gave Blackwater and their ilk a free hand to roam Iraq killing on sight, and literally getting away with murder for profit, at public expense.
“Success” in Iraq?
There can be, and will be, NO honorable end to this dishonorably-begun, and brutally continued, occupation of Iraq.
Does Congress want to “reduce our troops” and “change our mission” to have a more limited, permanent colonial occupation of Iraq OR does it want to END our inhumane, uncivilized, ‘might makes right’ occupation of the sovereign nation of Iraq?
That question addresses the reality of the imperial occupation of Iraq that actually exists; questions about the relative numbers of necessary public troop deployments for a “war” (either “terror-based” or “sectarian civil war-based”) used to justify our ongoing imperial occupation of Iraq do not – such diversionary discussions ignore truth in order to peddle more convenient, covering lies for the agendas of the powerful.
Meanwhile, in our name and for the falsely-asserted ends of “democracy” and “freedom” and “safety” the killing and displacement of the Iraqi people, the sacrifice of the American military, the plunder of Iraq’s mammoth oil wealth and our federal treasury go on, unabated.
P.S. Susan in Iowa @ 32 – Have you heard that the recent BBC/ABC/NHK national poll of Iraqis found that 98% of those asked thought a nation divided by sect would be a bad thing? That is stunning unaniminity on a matter that the “conventional wisdom” in Washington, D.C. has decided is an irreconcilable centuries-old “civil war.” Joe Biden ought to be inviting Iraqi witnesses to his Foreign Relations committee to find out what they think the future of their nation should be. That is, if he actually cares what they think, which seems doubtful.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6986993.stm
BigMitch @ 45
Seeing as the American track record in Iraq almost always seems to be the opposite of what we declare, Joe Biden’s plan should work exactly as planned?
The point is it is not our place to play chess with Iraq….not Bush, not the US Senate, not the Sunday pundits.
-GSD
burnspbesq @ 46
A novel concept-allowing the Iraqi people to determine their future. Wonder if it will happen?
Mittie is setting new standards in the buying of the presidency.
When former Massachusetts governor Mitt Romney closes the books on his latest campaign finance report today, it will reveal a slow but steady shift from a candidacy built on thousands of individual donations to one relying increasingly on his own personal fortune.
Top Romney advisers said last week that they expected his campaign to raise almost $40 million in the first nine of months this year. And though they have not released a firm figure, they expected that Romney will have supplemented those contributions with nearly $15 million of his own money.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01537.html
And what would the Mitt do about Iran?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=AJ2eif_zI3M
powwow – thank you!
I haven’t gotten to the Vanity Fair article yet but hear it’s a blockbuster!
Eureka Springs @ 44
Apologies for going OT, but perhaps you would care to explain Kucinich’s “no” vote on the SHCIP re-authorization bill. I’ve read the statement on his House website, and if that’s his real reason, it’s a shameless (and shameful) grandstand play.
Will someone rid us of this meddlesome White Man’s Burden?
Pesky Iraqis leaving their problems for us to fix – what ingratitude!
The filthy wogs actually want us to leave their accursed country!
What arrogance! What hubris!
Why – look at all we’ve done for them:
-1.2 million civilians dead
-millions in exile
-millions displaced internally
-water systems and public health destroyed by war – what remained after 12 years of US sanctions
-electricity down most of the time
(far more than under Saddam)
-growing hunger and starvation
-radioactive uranium scattered across most of the irrigated arable lands
-women retreating from public life due to sectarian oppression and murders.
-CHOLERA
And the wogs think they can do better?
Arrogant ingrates – they deserve to hacve their nation partioned and their resources sold off to the
highestbest-connected bidder.Oh wait – that’s what we’re already trying to do.
Carry on, lads, carry on.
All the best –
Col Blimp
I love the smell of DNC/GOP imperialism getting napalmed in the polls.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 52
But will it work? I still do not see the hard core GOP going for the Mittster. Seems like a giant ego massage to me, not to mention a waste of a big pile of money.
Kirk … you do have the sense of it!
good lord!
Siun @ 53
There are several good articles in this month’s issue of Vanity Fair worth checking out.
I agree with Loo Hoo. The Senate, the Bush administration, all the experts at the CIA or in the State department have no business trying to impose, or recommending, or suggesting what Iraq should do. I think it is another example of US dishonesty, of trying to control things that they cannot control.
Look at Iran. The US and Britain got rid of an elected president in the 50s, ’cause he was scary, and actually wanted his country to determine its own destiny and be independent. We imposed a fake “Shah of Iran”… Iran blew up decades later and still we have a mess with them, and that is with a population that is generally, and fundamentally, more friendly to west, and interested in adopting something we would recognize as western friendly socieity and government than Iraq. And we tried to control Iran and we have gotten a mess. It was moral failuare AND a practical failure.
I think only hope for good solution in Iraq is to set a reasonable time table for withdrawal, close the superbases, quit the cagey ‘residual force’ junk, cut out all the empire garbage from Cheney-Bush administration and the PNAC’d establishment foreign policy fake experts, and work with an international, multilateral effort. And look out for only really vital national interests, which I do not see as much more than keeping straights of Hormuz open to shipping.
As I noted in posts below, I found out recently that Webb called it correctly before the invasion -the Cheney-Bush regime wants to force Iraq to be a military colony for US military domination of the oil fields. I think the Biden plan and others like it are other efforts to do the same, or try to do something similar that sounds nicer or seems friendlier. Biden wrote a piece in Foreign Affairs, I think, on it, with the details. But I don’t think the details matter.
I also don’t think my position is lefy hippie peacenik junk. Respectable people who are real experts and not shills for looking for a gig in the next warmonger administration (GOP or Dem) say the same thing. Even at places like the Hoover institution.
There may have been a shred of justification for this kind of empire attitude during the Cold War. I cannot see any now.
i’m for strict ethnic cleansing – americans out of Iraq.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 4
Also 155,000 Iraqi children in Jordan not in school as there is no room.
GSD @ 50
Maybe you have a good point. But it is not the point that Siun was making in the post at the head of this thread. His/her point as I understand it is that Joe Biden should be drawn and quartered, and mocked for having hair plugs because he proposes partition. The facts appear to be otherwise: he proposes a federal system.
Now, back to your point, which I take to be, “we should just STFU and go home.” Your point does have some appeal to me. However, I feel that we have an obligation to the Iraqi people. Maybe just leaving is the best we can do. But that is pretty pathetic, when you consider how much damage has been done by us. If I may be foregiven for possibly putting words in your mouth, I think that we agree that the Dems front-runners don’t impress without a plan to be out by 2013.
Susan in Iowa, I agree with your ‘Circular Firing Squad’ analogy, but, I disagree with your assertion that Biden’s amendment isn’t a ‘Top-Down’ imposition! It most certainly is, from a central government, to 3 separate entities, what’s not top-down about that…???
another awesome post by siun.. thank you!
at least this time i’m only late, instead of missing the conversation all togther.
here is the link to biden’s amendment, s.amdt.2997.
now to try to catch up by reading all the comments…. quickly.
(((((POW WOW)))))
Kirk … you do have the sense of it!
and wesgpc – well said!
Siun @ 57
Thanks Siun -
doing my part for the
FatherlandHomelandEmpireIt’s a long way to Tipperary…
pip pip
in a wine sauce, with Shallots
Big Mitch @ 62-
I appreciate your point, we broke it, we bought it, but at this point it seems to me that we have lost all credibility in the region and can only do more harm than good by continuing with a presence there. The Iraqi people by and large don’t trust us, and at this point who can blame them?
I don’t want any more evangelicals for prez. I’d much rather have an agnostic or an atheist.
Ticktock, Biden has done more to inform himself than a lot of people. I have met him twice here, the first time after an hour and a half of listening to him answer question after question with direct, thoughtful and nonevasive answers. He had a staffer with him whose father was the Ambassador to the UN under Mossadegh, who was really fascinating to talk to about Iran and Iraq. Biden surrounds himself with people like that. No MBA President material with this guy: as in, one-page memos with all the dissents ironed out.
He got more than half the Repubs to cross the aisle and vote for his resolution, including the other most knowledgeable Senator on Foreign Relations, Lugar. He has been to Iraq eight times, and he talks about what is going on there with an intensity that cannot be faked. He also talks with the same intensity about Iran, a subject that keeps me awake nights.
ES, what is going on there is a nightmare in motion, yes. But if we think abruptly leaving will somehow end the nightmare, we are whistling past the graveyard. I was in favor of that position, though, because no one had any alternative beyond the stupidity and arrogance of the policy that we have now. I feel that we have terribly wronged the Iraqis, and that to just abandon them is as immoral as being there in the first place. If there is a possibility of creating a less bloody middle way, then I think we owe them the effort. Biden himself says that if there is no political reconciliation along the lines of what he proposes by January 2009, then he would begin to leave immediately.
You can say whatever you want to about the merits of the plan, but my reading is that Biden cares deeply about our country and about the Iraqis. He is the most sincere and passionate politician I have met since Mo Udall, and I live in Iowa where you meet a lot of them. I am going to do everything I can to help him.
CTuttle @ 63
If the idea is put out there in Iraq, and the grass roots support it, then it is not “top-down.”
With his donations, campaigning on blog comments may be a rational strategy.
the agony of what to DO re iraq goes onnnn….we tore up their country…and really we have no clue as to putting it back together – yet we will not allow them self-determination…b/c we want to call ALL THE DAMN SHOTS! W T F!!!!! imo
Big Mitch,
General Odom likened the constant refrain of Americans desire to stay in Iraq to “fix things” with the desire to have a rapist assist their victim with therapy.
Also, a federal system is not usually designed to separate warring ethnic groups. It is really a paternalistic approach by a pack of armchair dinkweeds in the US.
Joe’s hairplugs have very little policy making ability though.
-GSD
burnspbesq @ 54
I haven’t heard any of his reasons. SO I would only say I am familiar with Kucinch taking stands like this on bills and expect he will vote to over ride a veto if and when the time comes.
Most of all i support him because he speaks the truth…stands for something and refuses to support mass murder by all of us.. He wants accountability and I believe he would actually be a president who would stand up and say get rid of a lot of the recently gained egregious presidential powers while we clean our house, restore peace and liberty. He would also reduce massive defense spending which may be the only way we could actually pull off universal healthcare for all… which is what I support more than insurance for kids only.
One of the few things we know for certain is that Turkey will never permit the creation of an independent Kurdish state in what is now northern Iraq. Any plan that includes anything resembling a Kurdish homeland is a non-starter.
I am begining to wonder if there is a failure of leadership in the senate, as they have developed a history of voting for things that no one has read, only to turn around later and say oops.. We should be thankful that Biden resolution was not too serious or we would be in trouble as it did pass with a lot of support.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 69
Then you don’t agree with John McCain?
In an interview with Beliefnet, a multi-denominational Web site that covers religion and spirituality, the Republican presidential hopeful was asked if a Muslim candidate could be a good president.
OKK, is Boren your congresscritter?
Spiritcatcher @ 60
HA!
burnspbesq @ 76
Let’s see – they decline a 20 billion dollar bribe to use a northern approach into Iraq…
nobody could have predicted…
BigMitch @ 78
Keith Ellison would be a better President than any of the current Republican candidates.
Goodnight for Lahoma and me. She wants to beat me at gin rummy before we go to bed. And she will. ;0)
Oh and the photo Siun posted with her post puts tears of rage and sorrow in this rabid lambs eyes.
Enough!
pow wow @ 49 –
the streaming video of the DPC hearing on blackwater and whistler blowers is here. and i ripped the audio (here), for folks who’d rather download an mp3 for their ipods.
and on tuesday, at 10 am, the House Oversight and Government Reform committee is scheduled to have a hearing on “Private Security Contracting in Iraq and Afghanistan,” with Erik Prince, Chairman of Blackwater USA testifying
details and complete list of hearings for next week is here.
BigMitch @ 71
What Iraqi grassroots would that be…?
BigMitch @ 78
McCain has an incredible hitting streak going when it comes to making me disagree with him.
EvilDrPuma @ 88
It’s not hard when he’s so consistently and completely wrong. He’s batting 1000!
P.S. Susan in Iowa @ 32 – Have you heard that the recent BBC/ABC/NHK national poll of Iraqis found that 98% of those asked thought a nation divided by sect would be a bad thing? That is stunning unaniminity on a matter that the “conventional wisdom” in Washington, D.C. has decided is an irreconcilable centuries-old “civil war.” Joe Biden ought to be inviting Iraqi witnesses to his Foreign Relations committee to find out what they think the future of their nation should be. That is, if he actually cares what they think, which seems doubtful.
Great point. The book, “Life in the Emerald City” lays out the innumerable mistakes and negligence of the Bushies, Bremer and the CPA, but it also underscores the notion that partition purely with sectarian groups as the basis is flat-out wrong. Three states based on Shia, Sunni and Kurdish lands will only result in Turkey and Kurdistan ending up fighting, Iran taking over most of eastern and southern Iraq, and Saudi/Jordan/Syria fighting over the Sunni regions. If we thought there was sectarian conflict now, wait until we impose it on them. A federal system may work based on geographical purposes, with limited geographical rights so that each region can vote for their own representatives would be wise, as discussed in the book cited above. But just partitioning them on simple sectarian terms is lazy and borderline criminal.
Susan in Iowa, did you mean this?
No MBA President material with this guy: as in, one-page memos with all the dissents ironed out. or this? No MBNA President material with this guy: as in, one-page memos with all the dissents ironed out.
Just kidding.
The reaction of the Iraqi political leadership (such as it is) to the idea of partition seems fairly unequivocal.
http://www.latimes.com/news/na…..ome-center
madmommy @ 88
Just like the entire cadre of neocons that have foisted Iraq upon us, and, still have the gall to start another…!!! 8-(
(PS-MM, the Tide slipped outta the polls and Hawaii is 15th in most…)
CTuttle @ 63
The plan retains the central government, but takes away some of its functions. The Iraqi police, for instance, are infested with militias and much violence is attributed to them. Policing is done locally, which also works better here.
The Iraqis will have to impose it on themselves if this is a way out they can accept. The Senate of the US is not going to do it for them. The significance of the Biden Amendment is that the Senate is saying, Yo, George, we do not support your effort to prop up a central government that is obviously dysfunctional.
Go read it if you doubt that I am representing it fairly. I usually have great regard for Siun’s posts, but I do not understand how you can read this and get out of it that Biden supports partition. Or this op-ed written with Barbara Boxer. Or this op-ed where he talks about his view of just how horrific the alternatives are.
Disagree, fine. But don’t misrepresent what he says, then disagree with what he did not say.
Now the bloody help are asking for time off – and free meals!
What’s the Empire coming to?
I’m off to flog some
wogsillegal alienswhatever.All part of the duties of my class – the ruling class.
Hail Brittania!
America Uber A-rabs!
Our oil – their sand.
GSD @ 74
I am not enthusiastically endorsing Biden’s plan. And, unlike Susan in Iowa, I am not a big Biden fan. But he is obviously a thoughtful guy, and well qualified, too. The one thing I do enthusiastically endorse is truth in blogging, and presenting the Biden plan as a “partition” plan doesn’t cut the mustard.
Eureka Springs @ 75
He voted against SCHIP because it wasn’t pure enough. Perfect enough.
CTuttle @ 92
I’m still waiting for the day when all these consistently wrong pundits are exposed on the MSM for the steaming piles of cow flop that they are. Not holding my breath, though.
(LSU is #1, USC#2 in the AP)
burnspbesq @ 54
he voted for it until coverage for LEGAL immigrants was removed… apparently some people don’t want brown children to get subsidizied health care. personally, i support his position.
Teddy is upstairs.
(Hi Siun! I only lurked this time….)
EvilDrPuma @ 87
The Joe Dimaggio in this field is still Fred Thompson.
BigMitch @ 100
Has Thompson said anything of substance on any issues to able to disagree with him? He is Ronnie Reagan-lite–all pizzaz, if you can call it that, and absolutely NO substance.
Susan in Iowa @ 70
I don’t know what Biden’s plan says but if it doesn’t involve sitting down with Iraq’s neighbors, and involving a multinational force — it will fail miserably
My 2 cents
Susan in Iowa @ 93 –
have you read the actual amendment? i haven’t yet myself.
Susan in Iowa @ 93
At no juncture was I misrepresenting his views, I concur that George needs the ‘Yo’, however, it certainly doesn’t represent any semblance of a workable solution to the Iraqi political problem! As you state, the Police forces should be localized, I agree to a point, yet, therein lies the problem as well…!!!
Loo Hoo. @ 90
Oh, sure. I rest my case, first made above @32. If you disagree with a policy position, it is ever so much fun to make accusations of corruption (implicit in this “joke”) or take shots at personal appearance.
Biden is right about one other thing he said at the Steak Fry. This election is as serious as a heart attack. The next President will have a royal mess on her hands, and I am trying to do right by my country by picking someone who would be up to dealing with it. Siun wrote about a really serious policy proposal, and I was trying to respond.
But hey, instead let’s talk about Edwards’ haircut and his pandering to Likud, or we can talk about Dodd’s PAC contributions and his young wife, or maybe we could all amuse ourselves with Hillary’s cleavage and the WSJ article this week about Bill and the Italian shyster, or the rumors about Richardson’s skirt chasing, or, …never mind. Excuse me, but this is not how I pick a candidate.
Why would the United States Senate not be voting on Iraqi break-up into three parts?
Has the United States Senate ever went on record being against all the American miliary build out that now exists in Iraq?
Those American super-bases have went in on the American Governments “Premium Gold Card” with high end fitting out costs pretty much the deal over and over.
So where was the U.S.Senate on any of this American build out in Iraq?
The U.S.Senate plainly concluded some time back that American “presence”(Israeli styled occupation or Iraq Is American Captive Colony) was a done deal.
U.S.Senate decides to partition Iraq into three parts but where were the Iraqi people in this vote?
Or is this another example of vaunted American Glorious Democracy?
You know…who gives a flip about what voters want or vote for?
Those damn Iraqis…just what do they think American Democracy is all about?
American voters sent a message last November 2006 but WashDC pretty much did a ‘delete’ to it.
Instead it was The Iraq Surge Plan. Now it is The Can Not Leave Iraq–Must Stay Plan and The American WatchOver of Iraq Plan.
Oh…kick in another $50 Billion too.Just put it on the American Taxpayer Gold Card Charge. It’s EZ!Pay only interest! Need more?Goerge and Dick don’t care!Charge it! It is the American Way!George and Dick are Great Americans!
And hell yes…Lets Attack Iran and Really Cock Things Up in Greater West Asia.
George Bush and Dick Cheney are all big on the exporting of American Glorious Democracy to Iraq.
Just as long as the Iraqis,like we Americans,don’t get any silly ideas about being part of a Democracy that gives you any real say or power over how Big Money,Big Military and Big Business cut the pie.
Silly Iraqis.
The nerve…thinking they might have a say in what Bush/Cheney or U.S.Senate have in mind for Iraq.
Anyway…Iraq is so 2005 anymore.
It is nearly 2008.Time to Attack Iran!
What Iraq Debacle?
What are you? Against American Hegemony in ME?
What kind of damn sissy,phony American are you?
Get in line and shut up. Or you will get the MoveOn treason treatment.
You think this “Democracy” is for you?
Leave the “important” stuff to your betters.
Get back to work.
Who told you what you had to say matters?
You damn troublemaking MoveOn Lefty Liberals!
The U.S.Senate passed a “sense” about you last week! You better watch it! You’ve been warned!
Pay your taxes on time too.
selise @ 103
Yes. I’ve been trying to find it, but it’s late and I’m weary after a frantic all-day effort preparing food for our County Democratic party get-together, hosting campaign surrogates.
Susan in Iowa @ 105
that’s not a fair complaint. you’ve got all backwards. the mbna jokes started after the bankrupcy bill…. some people were not so fond of that piece of legislation.
so, the mbna jokes came long before this iraq amendment by biden. and it’s a joke based on policy, not on aan accusation of corruption.
by all means support the candidate of your choice. but please don’t expect others not to voice their opinions about your candidate…
Selise, it is implicitly based on the implication that Biden is beholden to MNBA and therefore corrupt. I didn’t like the bankruptcy bill either, and disagree with Biden on it. But I don’t assume that he is worthy of the “joke” as a result. If the bankruptcy bill were my most important voting issue, I would not be supporting him. MBNA employs a lot of people in Delaware. Hillary’s state encompasses Wall Street. And so on. If we could all be pure like Kucinich and only vote for perfect legislation, I suppose the world would improve. But in the world we have, there is no candidate on the Democratic side who has not supported something I do not like.
I am most concerned about Iraq, about the likelihood that we are being snookered into war with Iran, and that my kid, who wants to go into the Peace Corps, will not be able to find a country where we are not hated. I have gone to hear the candidates as they came to Iowa, and asked them questions. I thought Biden had the most coherent and thoughtful answers of any candidate on the issues that are of greatest concern to me.
I don’t expect anyone to not to voice their opinion. I have been reading here for a very long time, and I love the place. I used to comment more, but am working a lot lately. I was just disappointed tonight with (1) discussion of Biden’s plan did not fairly reflect what it is, did not quote from the plan itself, and quoted critics who did not represent it fairly either. (2) Maybe it is because I live in Iowa and I have had the campaign in my face for months, but I am bone weary of the ad hominem attacks on all the candidates such as the ones sprinkled through the comments above. I go back to my firing squad metaphor.
The best idea in the world to “fix” Iraq will not be acceptable to the Iraqis coming from the U.S.. All credibility from us was shot a long time ago. Nothing will change in Iraq so long as Bush and Cheney remain in office. Impeach, indict and incarcerate. Those would be a good start if we want any room to talk on this subject and even after that it is not our place to do so. After all, it is their country.
… Well the bright side to this is that it got people to agree on what they don’t want.
Great post Siun, but you know that because literally everybody in the blast area warns against partition, for all the obvious consequences, the ship of fools that is our government can’t resist one more self imposed episode of Jack Ass the Movie just to prove that we can do it.
The Iraqis seem to partitianing themselves…….very violently. And much to Turkey’s dismay, the Kurds are happily going about their own agenda with the help of a Texas oilman.
I don’t care WHO scolds Biden; and his positions on other things are not first-rate to THIS progressive, by any means, but partition is what’s for dinner, whether it’s served 7 hours from now or 7 years from now.
We should start to deal with it. Could save us some blood and treasure.
The notion that lurking in the hearts of Sunnis, Shiites, and especially, KURDS, is a love of “Greater Iraq”, is horseshit. And in THOSE hearts is where Iraq’s future is going to be decided.
The only think holding the place together now is the presence of upwards of 200,000 occupying troops there. Remove those, Siun, and watch how well the concept of greater Iraq’ does.
BTW, when and where did Hillary Clinton state that she was in favor partition. I’d like to see that link.
AIPAC no more wants Iraq partitioned than they want Hamas delivering party favors to the Knesset.
“It got people to agree on what the don’t want.”
Really, MLS?
So you think the Kurds are truly planning on staying a part of Greater Iraq? :o) :o) :o)
Tanbark @ 113
‘Start to deal with it’?? What do you think we’ve been allowing to happen, if not fomenting, for four years now, under our occupation?? [And where is the proof behind your assertion @ 114 - which is contradicted by August’s opinion poll - about what ‘lurks in the hearts’ of the Iraqis? Or, like Biden, don’t you care to learn what the majority of Iraqis actually think and believe? We are “holding” nothing outside of the center of Iraq. Our forces are not occupying either the north or the south of Iraq (outside of air bases); there are still ‘integrated’ cities in the north where somehow ‘genocide’ has failed to break out despite (or because of?) our absence.]
Partition is the de facto policy of the American occupation, whether intended or not, as facts on the ground attest (never mind the covering rhetoric to the contrary). [It’s long been known as “divide and rule” - an approach that is especially favored by conquerors when prizes like $20 trillion in oil wealth would otherwise be available to and controlled by any strong central authority in a united nation, as certain neighbors of Iraq who have some ardent admirers in our Congress are well aware.]
And I tend to think that an obvious but unwelcome effect from a deliberate occupation strategy (or lack thereof) would lead one to change said occupation strategy (or to create one) to end or ameliorate any such unwelcome effect, especially one with such drastic humanitarian consequences, ASAP. Four years on, no such significant change in strategy has been evident, while the composition of Baghdad has “somehow” changed from 65% Sunni to 75% Shia under our close, American Zone-based “overwatch.” Just a minor coincidence, which our overwhelmingly-superior firepower advantage in Baghdad had nothing to do with, and had no ability to affect one way or the other…? Somehow I doubt it.
Actions speak louder than words. And when the Biden plan gets enthusiastic support from the likes of Big Oil’s Kay Bailey Hutchison, who never bucks the primary agenda of her Manly Leaders without their permission, something’s rotten in Denmark.
“Partition is the de facto policy of the american occupation.”
Dow: This is patent nonsense. :o)
The notion that partition is somehow going to give bushCo access to Iraq’s oil is also lunacy. Pure, unadulterated lunacy. :o)
Where on earth did you come up with the idea that bush and the petro-turds want to see an an independent state in the south, around Basra, with those huge reserves, controlled by Shiites whom are inevitably going be closely allied with the Iranians? The Saudis are looking at THAT, and shitting green nickels. And I remind you, the House of Saud and the House of Bush are asshole buddies. (You pick the asshole. :o) )
And, in that entire dingbat screed on YOUR view of partition, the word:
“Kurds” did not appear. :o)
Please, Dow Wow, tell me that you don’t really believe that bush is in favor of an independent Kurdish state.
I feel like I’m talking to someone who walked up to me and said:
“Tanbark, let’s have a discussion on geography.”
And I said, “Fine”.
And then you said: “TB, you DO understand, of course, that the earth is flat, don’t you?”
I mean, I don’t know if we have any common reference points if you genuinely believe that bush wants the Kurds to separate from Iraq.
That’s just breathtakingly ignorant. Every time the Kurds whisper “independence”, the Turks get a hard-on that a cat couldn’t scratch. As we speak, they have nearly as many men parked on their border with the Kurdish north, as bush has crammed into the rest of what used to be called Iraq.
Do you think that that situation is beneificial to bush and the oil-pirates who have been waiting for the parliament to pass that oil law with the sweetheart deals for them in it? Again, please tell me you don’t think that.
Figuratively speaking, Condoleeza Rice has been spending more time under Recep Erdogan’s desk that Monica spent under Bill’s.
Do you think that if the Kurds DO hold that constitutionally-mandated referendum before the end of the year, to decide who controls Kirkuk and those adjacent oil fields (which they are almost certain to win) that bush wants to see THAT big step toward an independent Kurdish state?
Child, you need to re-think your precepts.
The republicans are twisting in the wind, 13 months from an election that, no matter the antiwar sentiments of the dems, or the lack of them, is going to send GOP congressional influence, and their white house influence (unless the democrats are stupid enough to nominate Hillary Clinton) right into the toilet.
ANY willingess on the part of the people who’ve dragged us into this misery to countenance the partition that is already a reality in Iraq, has NOTHING to do with their wanting Iraq to split up, or perceiving it as beneficial to them. It’s only them starting to throw up their hands, and shreik “Uncle!!!”
Jeebus! You’re not in the U.S. state department are you? :o)
BTW, Hutchison’s speaking in support of partition, has nothing to do with “divide and conquer”. The notion that the fragmenting of Iraq will make it easier to “conquer” is blather. Do you really believe that an independent “Shiastan” in the province around Basra is going to be easier to control?
Do you really think that a central state in the mid-lands, with the ongoing tensions between the Sunnis and Al Sadr’s people, will be easier to “conquer”?
Hutchinson’s statements were nothing but a clear signal that she, just like an increasing number of republicans, is watching the ticking election clock, and thinking:
“How can we get our asses out of this shitmire?”
Partition is GOING to be the denouement of bush’s bloody little soap opera; what remains is to decide on whose “watch” it, with all of it’s fallout, is going to take place.
If the democracts are stupid enough and cowardly enough to let bush toss it to them, while he slides out of town, then they will deserve the “who lost Iraq?” ass-flaying that the republicans will ecstatically give them.
But the GOP congers are running VERY scared at this point, and more and more of them are not willing to sacrifice their own political asses, to cover bush’s legacy-ass.
THAT is why Hutchinson (whom, incidentally, has eaten HER authorization vote in 2002, more unequivocally than has Clinton.) is seconding Biden’s idea of splitting Iraq. She’s willing to have it happen, and happen sooner, rather than later, for the simple reason that if it happens in 3 months, or 6 months, or 9 months, they still have time to put bush on a spit and turn him, for the voters to see and enjoy. :o)
Stick with me kid, I’ll show you the ropes. :o)
Tanbark -
A partition of Iraq does not mean three independent nations. It means a sort of “federalism” that is as good as three nations, without actually being three nations, for reasons such as the Kurd/Turk problem.
With the vast oil wealth of Iraq owned three-ways, not under central national control, and therefore wide open to exploitation by Western Big Oil via the three (or more) separate federal regions after the beloved “hydrocarbon law” is finally rammed through the Iraqi parliament.