So much for lessons learned. Via Sy Hersh at The New Yorker:
At a White House meeting with Cheney this summer, according to a former senior intelligence official, it was agreed that, if limited strikes on Iran were carried out, the Administration could fend off criticism by arguing that they were a defensive action to save soldiers in Iraq. If Democrats objected, the Administration could say, “Bill Clinton did the same thing; he conducted limited strikes in Afghanistan, the Sudan, and in Baghdad to protect American lives.” The former intelligence official added, “There is a desperate effort by Cheney et al. to bring military action to Iran as soon as possible. Meanwhile, the politicians are saying, ‘You can’t do it, because every Republican is going to be defeated, and we’re only one fact from going over the cliff in Iraq.’ But Cheney doesn’t give a rat’s ass about the Republican worries, and neither does the President.”…
I was repeatedly cautioned, in interviews, that the President has yet to issue the “execute order” that would be required for a military operation inside Iran, and such an order may never be issued. But there has been a significant increase in the tempo of attack planning. In mid-August, senior officials told reporters that the Administration intended to declare Iran’s Revolutionary Guard Corps a foreign terrorist organization. And two former senior officials of the C.I.A. told me that, by late summer, the agency had increased the size and the authority of the Iranian Operations Group. (A spokesman for the agency said, “The C.I.A. does not, as a rule, publicly discuss the relative size of its operational components.”)
“They’re moving everybody to the Iran desk,” one recently retired C.I.A. official said. “They’re dragging in a lot of analysts and ramping up everything. It’s just like the fall of 2002”—the months before the invasion of Iraq, when the Iraqi Operations Group became the most important in the agency. He added, “The guys now running the Iranian program have limited direct experience with Iran. In the event of an attack, how will the Iranians react? They will react, and the Administration has not thought it all the way through.”
That theme was echoed by Zbigniew Brzezinski, the former national-security adviser, who said that he had heard discussions of the White House’s more limited bombing plans for Iran. Brzezinski said that Iran would likely react to an American attack “by intensifying the conflict in Iraq and also in Afghanistan, their neighbors, and that could draw in Pakistan. We will be stuck in a regional war for twenty years.”
Anyone else feel like we are stuck in a failed nightmare version of Groundhog Day…but without the laugh track?
Related posts:
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Dahr Jamail, The Will to Resist: Soldiers Who Refuse to Fight in Iraq and Afghanistan
- The Fight for a Public Option is the Fight for Affordablity
- McCaskill on Health Care: “This Will be a Fight and it Will be an Ugly Fight”
- Holder v. Rahm: The Torture Fight
- DeMint’s Sedition: Flying Off To Fight Against The U.S.





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zed?
CHS!!!
Glad you brought up Groundhog’s Day, one of my favorite movies. Its theme in a nutshell? That love redeems.
It is unlikely that Cheney and Bush are going to figure out how to redeem themselves in this lifetime, but we have got to do some serious work to redeem our country.
Massive amounts of nonviolent resistance is ESSENTIAL to this. Over and over again.
Also from the article:
Nobody saw this coming? Hello?
Condi,where did you say that Ph.D. was from?
Christy asks:
Ground Hog Day as filtered through The Twilight Zone. Where’s Rod Serling? Does anyone else hear a narrator’s voice in the background?
The goopers need a new cold war- the war on terror has been invented to fill the bill- but it’s not hot enough yet to do the trick- bombing Iran would add some heat- goopers need a few more 9/11s in order to keep riding the horse.
I have no idea if Bush is gonna bomb- but if he does- it should have the desired result.
Stirrin up hornets.
Christy,
Glad to see that you and I agreed on what we thought was the major part of the article! Keep up the good work.
O/t -
Blitzhead will ask Al Gore “has president bush had a change of heart on global warming?”
Dog save us from freaking idiots like the beard who would even *think* of such a question. I hope Gore’s got a supply of Hill’s “cackle” to use in response to that one.
As was said on ‘Real Time with Bill Maher’ – in essence, the population of Iran is considerably larger than Iraq, and if we can’t secure Baghdad, how the hell does he (Bush) think Iran is going to be a breeze. The Iranians will not rush to us as liberators either.
Bush and Cheney’s goal is simply to destroy this country.
It sucks to feel powerless. We worked so hard to elect a Dem majority in Congress and they are completely abdicating their power to the 2 people in the world I trust least. When it comes to military action taken by these 2 all the calls in the world to Gordon Smith et al aren’t going to stop Dickless from getting his war on (again). An attack on Iran will be the biggest mistake we’ve ever made, far overshadowing the clusterfucking mess in Iraq. It’s incredibly surreal, disturbing, and downright enraging.
The GOP must be scared to be leaking war plans like this.
Here is another really good article re: Iran from NoQuarter.
my husband was watching TV last night and said he saw a 15 or 30 second spot from DHS – saying every family needs a “terrorism plan” – “do your children know what to do if terrorists attack?”
They are definitely planning something that will justify an all out attack on Iran.
In attacking Iran, the US will be pissing off China and Russia. The question is why Iran? Nuclear & terrorist state are the generally accepted excuses. If stupid attacks Iran, China, 2nd largest hold of US Treasury Securities, could sink the US into a depression by dumping the notes onto the market. Is it possible with the subprime mortgage and credit crunch catastrophe it’s gonna happen anyway and instead of blaming Bush and Greenspan, we blame the Chinese government? The Fed has been busily propping up the
stockmarketcommercial and investment bankers. Bombing Iran just doesn’t pass the smell test, somethings up and our government ain’t sharing the facts.Jesus….
things come undone @ 11
I don’t know if it’s scared. I think they are completely desperate and willing to do anything to stay in power.
And another by Glenn Greenwald.
Dear Mod, I blew it on #12 and left in the extra http. Can you fix this please?
Yeah, Christy. I feel that way; most recently because of the “Wednesday Night Self-Massacre” by the three people with the best chance to end this bloody, planet-threatening, Mack-Sennet comedy. And by the United States Senate firmly wedging their collective heads up george bush’s buttcrack.
Soon, it is going to be fish-or-cut-bait time for some powerful and influential ‘murkans:
Our military is going to have to decide if they want to find out how the Iraqi Shiites will react if bush starts bombing the Iranian Shiites.
The fatcats on Wall St. will have to decide how interested they are in seeing the effects of $100 ppb for oil, on the stockmarket. AND, they need to decide if they want the Euro to REALLY kick the dollar’s ass; so hard that it will have to take off it’s shirt to shit.
The repubs up for election or re-election, will have to decide if, mid-campaign, they can satisfactorily explain $5 a gallon pump prices, to the voters.
In fact, as that republican said, the GOP will have to decide if covering george bush’s legacy ass is worth the risk; nay, the PROBABILITY of their being consigned to the political roll of becoming Gilliard’s “shithouse rats” for a generation or two. :o)
In other news-factors; I don’t think Gordon Brown and Parliament are eager to see those 5500 brits, now hunkered down behind the wire at the Basra airport 12 miles north of the city, sitting there like rabbits in an open field, and practically reduced to a hostage situation, if bush “does” Iran.
Likewise, the Gulf States are falling in line to assure the Iranians that their territory won’t be used for an attack on them.
Lots of “don’t do this, asshole!” words starting to pop up. I think/hope it will be enough to prevent it.
things come undone @ 11
Iirc, kit bond on blitzhead just basically called people like Hersh traitors…..not quite in so many words, but that was the meaning.
carolyn urban @ 13
My thoughts exactly every time I see that one……..plus all terrrrrrah, all the time.
So why does France/Sarkozy seem to be playing along with the U.S. this time? I don’t get it.
Also:
Donald Trump plays with other people’s money.
Dick Cheney plays with other people’s children.
Laura Doty @ 18
Fixed. Hard refresh, Laura, everybody.
Freedom Watch wants you to support this invasion. This group of Friends of Dick Cheney plans to spend millions of dollars to support attacks on Iran.
“If Hitler’s warnings were heeded when he wrote ‘Mein Kampf,’ he could have been stopped,” said Bradley Blakeman, 49, the president of Freedom’s Watch and a former deputy assistant to Mr. Bush. “Ahmadinejad is giving all the same kind of warning signs to us, and the region — he wants the destruction of the United States and the destruction of Israel.”
The group is organized as a tax-exempt charity, which I assume means that contributions are tax-deductible. The group hopes to raise $200 million by November, 2008, and each of the founders is said to have contributed $1million. It is Ari Fleischer’s new employer, which is where most of us first heard of it. The only organizer quoted in the article is Mel Sembler, a huge supporter and fund-raiser for George Bush. Check him out in Wikipedia.
I wonder if Canada is accepting immigrants.
carolyn urban @ 13
I think that’s more about this perpetual fear-mongering.
Here, a 6-year-old told their father that a man had tried to abduct them, when all that happened was the man said, ‘hello’ to her while waiting for someone else. Fear permeates everything.
things come undone @ 11
Seymour Hersh has a long history of relations with lower ranking people in the military, and his sources have stayed with him as they rose in rank. This is very likely not an official leak, but comes from one or more people in the Pentagon who are really worried about the possibility of something really really stupid coming from the neocon Darth Cheney crowd.
Any bets that this is what they’ve been counting on all along? Chaos is exactly what they intended to bring to the ME. Maybe they figure it’s easier to steal resources when you have people off balance. Who knows exactly why, but this was their plan of delivery.
The lame duck president is going to thin us out so bad that no matter who wins the Presidency the opportunity for success will be severely restricted. All GW is doing now is legacy survival by making the next guy worse off then he was.
I don’t think it will work!
Flash
Centrisity.com
What are they thinking?
Permanent war = permanent power = vast wealth for the powerful.
That’s the simple answer. More complex ones would include using the American military as a a protection force for the oil companies and overcompensation for the small size of Bush and Cheney’s reproductive organs.
Laura Doty @ 3
To redeem ourselves as a country, we must subject Cheney/Bush to the same process they subjected Saddam, with, possibly, the same result. Let the law steer due process.
To regain our status and credibility, we must emphasize the “rule of law” and that there are consequences to lying about facts to justify criminal intent, holding no “leader” above the law.
Personally, I would like to see both hang after due process, but I can accept the results of a truly independent court.
rat bastahd @ 20
My guess is that Sarkozy thinks that ratcheting up the rhetoric will convince the Iranians to come to the table rather than deal with the crazy people in the White House and the right-wing crazies who support them. Like the Freedom Watch crowd.
Ann in AZ @ 27
No, that would be bad for Israel. Besides, if they were trying to create chaos they would screw it up.
(((((Redd)))))
I marvel at you and Jane and all the front page posters – day in and day out FDL never fails to present the most vital and timely issues. Thank you all for giving new meaning to the old adage:
Lead By Doing!
this administration has not been held accountable for anything since they stole the 2000 election –
WHY SHOULDN’T THEY FINISH DESTROYING THE FISCAL INTEGRITY OF AMERICA BY ENABLING THE MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX (of which oil is a major component) DEEPER ACCESS INTO OUR COLLECTIVE POCKETS?
The treason, crimes against humanity, and theft from the federal treasurey that this administration is reponsible for are too numerous to list here – most of us have a good idea.
GREAT CRIMES DEMAND EVEN GREATER CRMINIALITY!
This has to be. They must be tried, in an international setting – The Hague – and punished by the world community for their crimes. That is the only way justice will be served.
Remember, not only are they enriching themselves beyond avarice, but they are setting the economic agenda for generations to come.
Brzezinski: “We will be stuck in a regional war for twenty years.”
That’s Bush’s goal. He’s as much as said so.
This is Ariel Sharon’s “facts on the ground” strategy. When the Democrats take over in 2009, their options will be very limited. Whichever policy they end up deciding on will be one that Bush is comfortable with. It will be very difficult to avoid a long war and a permanent US Mideast presence.
This is what the Bush guy meant when he said “Democrats respond to reality. We make reality.” The Bush guy was not dumb or silly. Basically, he was making a threat and explaining that Bush was going to scam and bully the American people and get away with it. And that’s probably what will end up happening.
rat bastahd @ 20
Sarkozy is Rovian Rightist. The ‘French,’ horrified at US umbrage, are sucking huge fascist gulps merely to keep up with Merkel-Germany, while G. Brown-G, Britain can’t wait to be ‘tough’ as ‘redemption’. Bush ushered in a Rightest re-insurgency throughout the world (Burma?). US leads world, once again.
Goopers chances of a permanent majority are contingent on a red hot war on terror- things blowin up regularly and people scared shitless constantly.
Impossible to imagine that Cheney could be even more poisonous to the U.S. And yet …
Not familiar enough with the British press to know whether this is one of their rags or not but via Democratic Underground wrt war with Iran:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pag…..ge_id=1770
Be sure to take a close look at the photo attached to the article.
Tehran (Dispatches) — EU energy commissioner announced that EU sees Iran as a source of supply of energy resources.
http://www.tehrantimes.com/ind…..ode=153986
Iran, which has the world’s second-largest reserves of natural gas, could one day supply gas through the planned Nabucco pipeline running through Turkey and into southern Europe. The pipeline is seen as vital to weaning Europe off dependence on Russian gas.
Garrett Keizer at Harper’s is suggesting a National Strike on Election Day 2007: Awake and sing, ye who dwell in dust.
OT, but I just watched Al Gore interviewed by Blitzer, and I keep wondering lately what all contortions are the Clinton’s going thru to get his endorsement? Gore is in a very unique position, I think, since the wife of his ex-boss is running for the job he once should have had. He insists, so far, on maintaining complete neutrality, he says until someone steps up and takes a decisive stand on global warming that the candidates haven’t done yet. The last time I saw Gore interviewed, he said pretty convincingly that he would endorse someone before the election. Now he’s saying he’s not sure he’ll endorse anyone. I still think he may run himself if he doesn’t see more and better from the current candidates. I also think he’s the only one with the power to knock Hillary out now.
Waccamaw @ 41
I don’t believe that’s a joke. That article is also found in GorillaGuides, and the text is not really spoofly worded….
Ok Bush has a pattern he does what ever he wants to until he is stopped cold then he negotiates or makes bad excuses for his defeat.
The problem is none of our Presidential Candidates in the Senate have the strength to stand up to him. Without their leadership the Democratic party won’t stand up to him.
Bush knows he is losing in Iraq attacking Iran is like kicking over a chess board when your losing it doesn’t change the fact that your losing but it changes the subject.
It changes the subject into what a jerk you are! But I expect Bush to just smirk and say what are you going to do!
Since Bush can’t win in Iraq attacking Iran gives Bush a chance to smirk at us, to him that is a consolation prize but his whole life has been about pretending the consolation prize is victory.
He has to invade Iran emotionaly only the GOP and the Pentagon can stop him now …unless the Democrats get a spine.
Dems SHOULD be out in front of this.
Dems SHOULD be framing the debate.
Unfortunately, the Congressional Dems are abject cowards and the Presidential candidates are little better.
Waccamaw @ 41
Whoa. Is it human?
Waccamaw @ 41
Creepy! What think you, more precisely.
A real looker? Must be getting ready for
broom-ride later this month? Definitely a ‘consistent’ policy statement. ‘All of ‘em!’
allan_in_upstate @ 48
Fascism changes a body.
we really need to nominate someone other than Hillary.
Laura -
Is GorillaGuides a good place to go for finding the articles that need to be read by progressives? I remember having it bookmarked but have never taken the time to go there.
rat bastahd @ 10
what rat bastahd said
albert fall @ 47
I don’t think we can look to anyone but ourselves. WE should be out in front of this. WE should be framing the debate. WE can’t wait for SOMEONE to do something.
David W. Bartoo @ 38
I don’t know. Sarkozy, unlike our Pres, is one smart guy. Conservative – yes. Neocon/Rovian – I have my doubts. The French people are not enamored with US or our warlike way, and Sarkozy is very popular already so I don’t see him as having to prove he’s a tough cowboy.
Matter of fact, considering that I see the Iraq war, primarily, as an action committed to keeping the OPEC trading in dollars not Euros, I would expect France to be taking the same approach they did to the Iraq fiasco. Hmmm…
Laura Doty @ 54
Absolute TRUTH!
things come undone @ 46
It is the failure of the Democrats to stand up to the Administration on Iraq and FISA that is emboldening Bush and Cheney to think they can move against Iran before they leave office.
Allen @ 9:40 -
Whoa. Is it human?
If the person in question works for bush………….NO!
Waccamaw @ 52
Yes, it’s excellent. Regular reports on the cholera situation (billjp are you here?), info re: the latest war crimes–I mean bombings of occupied areas–and so on. Some of Siun’s friends write for it.
Many, many here have been saying for months that an attack on Iran was forthcoming.
“In a series of public statements in recent months, President Bush and members of his Administration have redefined the war in Iraq, to an increasing degree, as a strategic battle between the United States and Iran. “Shia extremists, backed by Iran, are training Iraqis to carry out attacks on our forces and the Iraqi people,” Bush told the national convention of the American Legion in August. “The attacks on our bases and our troops by Iranian-supplied munitions have increased. . . . The Iranian regime must halt these actions. And, until it does, I will take actions necessary to protect our troops.” He then concluded, to applause, “I have authorized our military commanders in Iraq to confront Tehran’s murderous activities.”
http://www.newyorker.com/repor…..fact_hersh
And McCain wants a Christian prez.
Sen. John McCain said in an interview published Saturday that he would prefer a Christian president over someone of a different faith, calling it “an important part of our qualifications to lead.”
carolyn urban @ 35
preach it sister carolyn
Woah. She’s scary looking, even for a Bushite.
rat bastahd @ 55
As may be, but ‘powers that be’ in France want US economic ‘model’. Maybe there is more ’spine’ there, among ‘opposition’ and the people will resist.
Perhaps we should turn to our fearless front-runner and see what she thinks about attacking Iran.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 64
She doesn’t like to talk about hypotheticals = she’d never answer the question.
Great minds think…this just up at Crooks and Liars. (text and vid).
carolyn urban @ 13
I was 6yrs old during the Cuban Missile Crisis. My parents tried to hide the news but I knew something was afoot by the whispering and the halted conversations when we kids walked in the room. I didn’t understand, but I remember being scared. This administration has it the other way.
Let’s terrorize the children, shall we?
TexBetsy @ 65
Clinton voted yes on Lieberman/Kyl amendment. What more do you need to know?
David W. Bartoo @ 38
He was hardline against riots by French Moslem youth. French Moslems are about 10% of the population and there is a lot of racist feeling against them. Sarko in his positioning on Iran may in part be playing on this anit-Moslem feeling. I doubt that France would actively participate in an attack against Iran but politically Sarko may find it to his short term advantage to stoke the fires.
allan_in_upstate @ 48
My Uncle’s skin looked like that only a bit grayer but that was during Chemo and Radiation therapy. The skin tightness, facial features and expression suggest a twisted elf after plastic surgery and a drug binge! I wonder if her family tree branches out or is a pole?
Laura -
Wizard! I’ve been very disturbed at how little information there’s been on the cholera issue…….nothing I’ve heard on the idjit box and only a few mentions on-line. Will start keeping a daily look-see at the site.
Hugh @ 69
How far into Europe can Iranian missles reach?
Sarkozy is a machine politician.
I’d like to think the intelligence agencies and military won’t go along with the crazy plans this time. We’re getting close enough to the end of Bush’s term he may just decide to go for a Hail Mary pass and see what happens. I really, really hope that doesn’t happen.
Depends on what is meant by getting it right. If 20 years of war is the desired outcome, then the cycle may well end.
However, since Lincoln’s war, the gov’t has accumulated massive debt with each new war in a matter of a few years. Twenty years is quite ambitious. The Cold War was prolonged and costly, but not quite the same thing as a hot war, in terms of debt taken on. It doesn’t seem possible without total collapse.
And McCain wants a Christian prez.
Sen. John McCain said in an interview published Saturday that he would prefer a Christian president over someone of a different faith, calling it “an important part of our qualifications to lead.”
OK – I saw that early this morning also. I could be wrong, but there is part of me that is completely creeped out by this statement of McCain’s – he seems so much to be pandering to the Christian Right. I think even Christian Rightists would find it extremely difficult to believe or find him credible now.
Alice @ 73
Sarkozy will appeal to fear. That is the new ‘ticket to success’ as perceived by a certain mind-set.
May I may a process comment here? I’ve noticed that we have two styles at the Lake. One, when galvanized by an emergency, we can be all action: making phone calls, faxing, writing letters and sharing them: responding well to a crisis.
The second one, in threads like this is to converse, but in some ways also to start getting caught in the eddies. Comments begin to wend toward finger pointing, or snark, or a sort of mully/wool-gathering mode.
What we seem weakest at is discussing/growing plans that take time. Perhaps this is just the liquid nature of the lake…I keep hoping, though, that we can do more. What do all you all think of this?
Maybe Bush has sunk the hegemony of the US dollar and the Euro would be it’s replacement. The Iranian bourse was to trade in euros, hasn’t happened, yet. The dollar keeps on sinking to new lows and Euros reaching new highs. Under Bush the surplus
disappearedwas pocketed by theUSGlobal Corporations, US industry sent overseas, US jobs left are retail, financial services, and oh right, weaponry. And our outrageous debt held by foreign nations. Yup, pretty much screwed by the spend spend spend republican policies. Now what, bomb Iran? Yeah, that outta save the greenback.Laura Doty @ 43
Thanks for that link. That was a shot in the arm.
Toby Wollin @ 76
Naaaaah……..they’ll believe anything that’s got a cross attached to it.
And there’s that other wannabe leader, Obama.
TheOtherWA @ 74
As Greenwald’s Salon article (see link in #17) points out, there are folks trying to hold the line, but we really can’t rely on that. It’s going to take a lot more of/from US.
Laura Doty @ 78
It would be flamed and banned here – BUYBLUE.ORG had all the answers – QUIT BUYING FROM APPLEBEES, HOME DEPOT, WAL-MART, MCDONALDS and all of the corprorations that underwrite this. The buyblue.org data and resources is no-more; couldn’t generate support.
In fact – the same small group of influential neocons and corporate interests are the people are behind the chimperor – he is not our problem – he is a distraction and moron.
The faux “Advertise Liberally” crowd has consistently shown it will NOT take meaningful action – using the only “vote” we know that is actually counted – OUR DOLLARS!
All questions I don’t like are obviously “hypothetical”.
masaccio @ 24
The group is organized as a tax-exempt charity, which I assume means that contributions are tax-deductible. The group hopes to raise $200 million by November, 2008, and each of the founders is said to have contributed $1million. It is Ari Fleischer’s new employer, which is where most of us first heard of it. The only organizer quoted in the article is Mel Sembler, a huge supporter and fund-raiser for George Bush. Check him out in Wikipedia.
I wonder if Canada is accepting immigrants.
For those Firepups in the Philly area, one of Freedom’s Watch bankrollers is Ed Snider, the former owner of the Philadelphia Flyers.
Laura Doty @ 78
Good analysis of the processes of the blog group mind crises does seem to sharpen our focus. We do need to personaly do something or at least feel threatened to stay on target.
I think we need surveys to poll about what we really want the most and the have a day to discuss plans to get what we want a week later so everyone has time to think about it.
Hugh @ 57
I think it more their failure to stand up against the enabling legislation, i.e., the Lieberman resolution earlier this year and the Lieberman/Kyl amendment more recently.
Appears possible Bush will drop non-nuke bunker busters and claim it to be the more “reasonable response.” If Iran then attacks US troops in Iraq, the nukes go.
Laura Doty,
I am not sure what a “sort of mully/wool-gathering mode” is but I think I like it.
Perhaps we could laugh our way to victory in Iran, Hillary.
Just finished reading th Hersh article. Yup, some crazy bastards are running the WH. I hope they liked the article. Now, what will the mainstream media do?
things come undone @ 87
yeah, right, Laura Doty @ 78 – an online poll, that will do the trick…
Maybe the DLC Leadership Team could give us their views on invading Iran.
When a ME expert like Pat Lang & Hersh are on the same page on this, IMO it’s “not if but when time” for the bombing of Iran…
From Lang’s blog on Amendment #3017:
“Iraq is becoming a “side show.” Iran is the thing. It was a good idea to take the two offending paragraphs out of the draft resolution but the designation of the IRGC, a major agency of the Iranian governent as a terrorist and therefore criminal organization is clearly a step on the road to war.
Governments which willfuly maintain and harbor within them criminal groups must inevitably be seen as criminal themselves.
As Senator Webb asked in floor debate, “What do we do with terrorist organizations?”
Reid and Clinton voted for this? Bush/Cheney and the Flatheads can now justify any action against Iran, and they can do it without further resort to Congress.
How is this effectively different from the resolutions passed in 2002 which gave Bush the authorities which he is still using?” pl
http://turcopolier.typepad.com…..no-30.html
Laura Doty, I like most discussions here at the lake and very infrequently do I see personal attacks. Or maybe I just skim those and move on to the next.
Pew Research claims that 68% of Americans want our troops out of Iraq within five years, but no democratic frontrunner would commit to that in the most recent debate. Everybody knows that campaign guarantees can be broken, especially if circumstances change. So, why are these candidates so fearful of committing to a five-year time table? To whom are they pandering?
Last week, the U.S. Senate, including half of the democrats, voted to all but declare war on Iran. But the electorate doesn’t want another war. To whom are they pandering?
I’m beginning to believe that we already have one-party rule, and I believe that the key question to ask in the next Democratic debate is: “Would you take steps to bring to justice those members of the Bush Administraton who are responsible for violations of the War Crimes Act of 1996 and other federal laws including FISA?” I will not vote for anyone who answes “no” or who ducks that question.
if i have it right, bushco has yet to do this. so why has congress been pushing for it?
Wonder if Joe Lieberman has a prescription for dealing with Iran?
Scott Ritter spoke here in Phoenix last spring and he will be here Oct 12th so anyone who wants to hear what he has to say…
He stated that if the US bombed Iran, you can guarantee that ALL oil shipments out of the straights would be shut off. He said that oil would be priced $300-400 a barrel. Starting a war with Iran will destroy the American economy by shutting it down.
He had been in Iran last fall and said they are no more closer to having an nuke than the city of Scottsdale. Iran does NOT have access to pure enough uranium ore to process. The international community has regulated the sale and shipment of ore preventing Iran from obtaining anything usable. Currently they are using uranium ore found in Iran but it is contaminated with an element that cannot be removed.
Hugh @ 89
Yes I do too. It is certainly creative. I also like all the sharing and interconnecting that happens, under cover of little jokes and sports and recipes and….
For me, the lake is like a group mind. We can see how minds work…all these different tracks separating and interconnected. I wonder if we can also be a deeply creative mind in a group. I don’t know. Just a….well….a mull. And a hope.
David W. Bartoo @ 72
It depends on what the Russians are selling them. I doubt they have stuff that could reach Europe though. Not places like France.
MoveOn noted that my contribution was not tax deductible. Why is Freedom Watch different?
Do you think Bibi might help us with our Iran ‘problem’?
katymine @ 99
Yeah, but that won’t stop Darth Vader and Co.
MayDaze @ 88
I agree on Kyl-Lieberman. It may be very hard to limit an attack on Iran to just a few sites. The odds for escalation are high. In Iraq it will not be Iranians attacking US troops. It will be Iraqi Shia.
How will Russia and China react to our invasion of Iran?
And Hillary isn’t far off course here, is she? Take a look at her stance. Pretty scary and discouraging to think she’s the “front runner” for the “opposition”.
TexBetsy @ 95
I’m a little lost, TB. I haven’t said anything about attacks….
Oklahoma kiddo @ 93
You mean Al From? Or Hillary, Tom Vilsack and Evan Bayh?
Laura Doty @ 108
Maybe I misunderstood this: Comments begin to wend toward finger pointing
Oklahoma kiddo @ 106
They will laugh and wait Russia will get rich as oil prices go up and China will wait until we are to weak to do anything about invading Taiwan.
Laura Doty @ 78
I think you’ve described reality quite well.
Some days, some of us are ‘on’ and other days I find that disgust gets in my way, disgust not with comments here, but at the intractable nature, seemingly, of consciousness collectively and specifically among those who have chosen to ‘lead’ while evidencing neither leadership or conscience. Yet, I believe, leadership must come from us and the narratives we may share with those who do not meet at the lake.
Laura Doty @ 108
I wonder whether Betsy was remarking on littlebear’s comment at 84 and attributing it to you by mistake?
“Whoa. Is it human?”
“My Uncle’s skin looked like that only a bit grayer but that was during Chemo and Radiation therapy. The skin tightness, facial features and expression suggest a twisted elf after plastic surgery and a drug binge! I wonder if her family tree branches out or is a pole?”
Well, beyond her features – and who was it who said you get the face you deserve by 40? – let’s take a look at her clothes. Is that the outfit of a exec these days – tight red leather? And the big cross vaguely reminiscent of a swastika?
wigwam @ 96
They’re pandering…to the electorate!
I think the Dems actually prefer to let the Iraq war go on until 11/08 — and would be just fine with another war as well, no matter what the cost in blood and treasure, because they think everybody will still mistakenly see the wars as only Bush’s and the Republicans’ wars all the way through. Why else would they obviously not be doing shit to stop the Iraq war — or even slow it down? Or prevent another war in Iran? They like it just fine this way.
And that, my friends, will guarantee them the mother of all landslides in Congress and the presidency.
And that, my friends, is what they value above everything else.
Hugh @ 105
I don’t think they’re interested in limiting the conflict, they just want to appear interested. Accountability avoidance (as usual).
carolyn urban @ 114
For some in this country, the cross serves much the same purpose as the swastika did…
TexBetsy @ 110
OH! What I meant by that was blaming “Repugs” “Dems” etc., We all need to vent. After a while, though–at least for me–it stops feeling productive. After all, we KNOW they’re doing stuff. For me, it’s what am I going to do. And (she said hopefully) what can WE –the Lake–do….
EvilDrPuma @ 113
Never mind. Betsy already clarified the point.
I do not view Hillary as the ‘diplomacy candidate’.
Just imagine the fallout from attacking Iran.
David W. Bartoo @ 112
I like your term the collective consciousness. In a way, the Lake is a cyber version of a Collective Unconscious and Consciousness. (Back to group mind). I just keep thinking we could collectively create, if we could only figure out how. We do it in crisis mode. Can we be a mind in other modes?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 120
I try to keep it simpler: at least as far as the primaries/caucuses are concerned, I do not view Hillary Clinton as a candidate. There are far better choices available than her or Obama, so why take them seriously at this stage?
David W. Bartoo @ 72
The Shahab-3 could probably hit Greece and the Southern Balkans.
Laura Doty, interesting question. I think the conversation here, on a day like today, is what it would be in any gathering of people. There is the reason we are here, the topic at hand, but as in a group, side conversations crop up, and they may distract or enrich.
I do like the decisiveness of take action threads too – It is an absolute adrenilin rush to be part of this group when we are all working toward a common goal. Alone it is easy to feel powerless. Together, we can begin to feel some clout.
And I don’t think we could work at that fever pitch without pause. There has to be some time to recharge, joke with your comrades in the foxhole. I think the building of community plays an important part of group action.
Laura @ 78 -
Wow! That’s a lot to chew on…….and I mean that only in the very best way. Just my opinion but seems a very worthy “mull” (and “hope”) to take up in a post of its own by Jane or Christy.
There’s an awful lot of power “lurking” at the Lake……and we’ve all seen it harnessed before to bring about positive outcomes and changes.
Laura Doty @ 122
That really is the next step, or should be. I hope your call to discussion will gain traction. Your clear expression of this potential opportunity deserves to be much more than a mere’drive-by’.
From the Sunday talking head thread some earlier stuff on the group mind if anyone missed it
demi says:
September 30th, 2007 at 7:36 am
things come undone @ 113
demi @ 105
I have never actually thought about how our comments here may actually be an outward expression of some inner self motivation.
But, yes, I think there is definetly something there.
Besides the producer/story and attorney/argument, there is the care giver/nurturing, comic/lighthearted or snark, and gardener/encourager.
And, combinations of all.
Would you care to expand on this theme I think you are descibing the various pieces of our blog group mind.
Insights into how the pieces interact and react to news of various sorts would be enlightening. Self knowledge of ourselves as a group can only help us interact even better!
Here’s another example: PeterR, one of the pastors on this site. He is a Shepherd. Very often he Leads people to sites, links, google searches. (There’s a hymn that goes like this: He leadeth me, …etc.)
And TexasBetsy who teaches students very often share story and article links. She educates and provokes thought.
I guess, bottom line, It Takes A Village (and that was a phrase before it was Somebody’s book title :)
Laura Doty @ 50
check out the Iron Cross
Hugh @ 124
This post contains a range “fan” for the Shihab-3:
http://turcopolier.typepad.com…..e-exi.html
True. I feel intelligent by association.
I’m sure they have contingency plans for Syria, and North Korea as well. Bush and Cheney have made it perfectly clear all along that they are going to deal with the Axis of Evil during their Administration. Unless they are stopped, I believe them.
If or when they finish the Axis of Evil off, I think it will be done by air all at the same time.
I hope and pray the Military refuses to go along with their plans.
Hillary was quite correct in saying that one doesn’t know what one will find in the WH by the time the next president takes over. JMHO
carolyn urban @ 125
I absolutely agree with you. I think it’s all important. I’m raising this because I think we have potential here…and I wonder if, as a group, we can tease out a way to harness it. I think this is very very new stuff. We’re different than most gatherings of people….I have a feeling we can do very different and interesting things.
Iran attack by the U.S.? What part will the nuclear armed Israeli military play.
Does commenting here cut back on anyone elses’s drinking?
Carolyn -
and who was it who said you get the face you deserve by 40?
Coco Chanel……probably the most influential fashion designer of the 20th C. :-)
things come undone @ 135
I rarely drink to start with. But there might be more temptation without this place….
Great post! For evidence of Cheney’s likely involvement in planning a nuclear attack on Iran, please see my diary on dKos, and let me know what you think.
Bob in HI
Waccamaw @ 136
I guess I shouldn’t feel too bad as I approach 40, then. My face is one of the things I like about myself. And I don’t look like a wax model of Boy George….
From where does Hillary’s campaign war chest derive?
things come undone @ 128
Yes. That’s why I think Jane’s creation of a FDL facebook group was so brilliant. We start forming friendships that grow outside the Lake as well as within it, like a beehive (non Borgian, of course!!)
bobschacht @ 138
I thought everbody here already read your post and Hersh’s from the way we were talking.
things come undone @ 128
Thanks things come undone. That was lovely.
Laura Doty @ 118
maybe it’s a process we all go through with each new piece of info or idea. some of us get there before others. today it looks like you are at the head of the pack *g*
Can’t you just picture it. President Clinton nominates Joe Lieberman for Secretary of State. Or worse, Secretary of Defense or Ambassador to the UN. After all, Clinton is the same person who threw Ned Lamont to the dogs.
Laura Doty @ 133
I am certain that the capacity of those here to impact and influence events in a major way, in the nation and throughout the world will be just a significant as the efforts of what we term ‘the founding fathers.’ Only this time, our latent hipocracies will be checked by the treasure of our appreciated differences and our willingness to hear and identify even deeper and broader truth.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 140
I’ve read that one of her biggest backers is Haim Saban: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haim_Saban
Marie Roget @ 130
Ok, not sure how link got corrupted. Here is a better one, hopefully:
Shihab-3 Range Post
Oklahoma kiddo @ 121
In more ways than one if you’re including nukes. ;-(
EDP -
I guess I shouldn’t feel too bad as I approach 40, then. My face is one of the things I like about myself. And I don’t look like a wax model of Boy George….
DING! Boy George………that’s exactly what that photo reminded me of.
solai @ 102
Cause it has the F word in it.
Laura Doty you and Demi should talk maybe Christy could pass on a message cause its hard to guess real names or commentor names when facebook only lists one.
This subject is of interest to me but I’m at the edge of my knowledge already talking on this subject, but I would like to be kept informed my facebook name is the same as my comentor name if you would like to keep me in the loop.
Lahoma advises me she sees some bad news ahead. Lahoma speaks; I listen. Big time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2w5kffJnq8
New Christy post upstairs!
EvilDrPuma @ 139
Maybe for you but it makes me wonder what the hell I ever did to deserve this face! ;})
Maybe we could have the author of The Crash of ‘79 at book salon. Cheney seems to have taken the plot for a manual.
Hmmm… yes and no.
New Christy post upstairs.
dov12348 @ 115
But, as noted, 68% of the electorate want the troops out of Iraq by the end of the next president’s first time (i.e., five years from now). Still no democratic frontrunner would commit to doing so. That’s the opposite of pandering to the electorate.
TexBetsy @ 143
Demi said that!
She was ussing you as an example to me to illustrate her point but I thought you should see what she said so I brought it up still it was nice and I agree with every word she said:)
wigwam @ 147
Who also is a big contributor to the Brookings Institute.
Waccamaw @ 41
Besides her bizarre look, are you referring to the iron cross hanging from her neck?
wigwam @ 158
Of course they want them out.
But if they don’t come out — they’ll blame Bush and the Republicans. Because, due to the electorate probably having bought into the fraud of “You can’t blame us, we didn’t have the votes” from the Dems, — I bet next year the electorate will still see this as Bush’s and the Repbublicans’ war. That’a what, IMO, the Dems are counting on.
dov12348 @ 162
One example: If you took a poll, I bet almost no one is aware that the Dems partnered up in the war by passing the supplemental. Not only that, I bet most people wouldn’t even know a supplemental from a club sandwich.
allan_in_upstate @ 4
From Exxon?
how will the Iranians react? They will react, and the Administration has not thought it all the way through.”
From the hip..shot..Pandoras box is full of possibilities and this administrations complete and utter ignorance, incompetence and general malfeasance present a scenario of consequences so serious in nature that it must be stopped..so how to do it?
Thanks things come undone.
Those run away criminals. Shall I scream or pray this morning. Or both.
Let’s face it. Bush was presented with a deal he can’t refuse. In exchange for an attack on Iran, Shel Adelson, billionaire founder of “Freedom Watch,” among others things, is promising to make his Presidential Library as classy as one of his Vegas Sands Casinos.
“Administration intended to declare Iran’s Revolutionary Guard Corps a foreign terrorist organization. And two former…”
I see this disconnect again and again; Americans in a state of Iraqi occupation, portraying Iranians as the ‘foreigners’.
Spoken like the true paranoid schizophrenics we always knew they were.
Laura Doty @ 68
Exactly! Also, pay attention to what they do, not what they say.
solai @ 67
I think I was the same age. I remember watching the announcement by Pres. Kennedy, and being worried because we didn’t have a basement.
But no one kept yammering about it and the fear faded after awhile.
I guess cheney wants to connect the colonies. Much easier for our viceroys to govern the oily brown people.
When is impeachment getting to the top of the list?
Laura Doty @ 43
Yes! It’s time for a general strike. Our so-called leaders have utterly failed us and will continue to judging by their responses at Dartmouth. It IS up to us. I don’t know the first thing about organizing a general strike, but I’d say we need a coordinated effort by multiple grass roots organizations.
Happily, Hillary voted FOR this coming attack on Iran! She is right there ON the curve with Bush/Cheney/Lieberman. She sees herself as the next Prez and SHE wants HER chance to conduct a disastrous war in the ME in violation of international law.
Keep supporting her troops, keep giving her money and, when the time comes, vote for her. You most assuredly do NOT want to cause any interruptions in the all war all the time neocon/neoliberal wetdream!
Waccamaw @ 41
A middle of the road (often aimed at the woman reader) paper == However, not as low as the Murdoch “Sun” tho’../ Has some hit and misses on some political ‘exclusives’… Also Simon Walters has some street cred as he won a presigious press award ==
http://media.guardian.co.uk/pr…..03,00.html
So, yeah – IT CAN BELIEVE IT!
I’m sorry, I lost the specific post, but someone asked one HELL of a good question on this thread about Hillary’s putative appointments:
“Can’t you just see Joe Lieberman as Sec. of State?”
A dagger. :o)
Shoulda added, guys; we’re at the point that anyone who still supports Clinton, really hasn’t got much room to criticize bush, since there’s not a nickels worth of difference in their policies regarding Iraq.
AND, dear hearts, Iraq trumps EVERYTHING.
IntelVet @ 30
But remember: Pelosi said impeachment was absolutely, absolutely, and saying it again absolutely off the table…
So the ‘rule of law’ == out the window…
Anyone who still harbors ideas,thoughts or point of views here in late 2007 that whatever George and Dick do still in Iraq or intend to do to Iran is not now endorsed by the DC DEMS and the “leading DC DEM herself,Hillary Clinton, consider Lieberman/Kyl a heads-up.
Hillary Clinton has been greenlighting Bush/Cheney Iraq stay,play and pay lead-ons and with her vote FOR Lieberman/Kyl she surely gave big notice where Hillary Clinton is on any Bush/Cheney Iran meddling or worse.
And it will be worse.
The DC DEMS are honoring the power/influence of ME tilt/slant money throw.
American tilted/slanted money politics certainly are what fuel the likes of someone like Joe Lieberman.
Where was Hillary Clinton last year when Joe Lieberman could have been taken down by Ned Lamont?
Where was Bill Clinton?
Where were the DC DEMS?
Where is Joe Lieberman now and what is he doing?
Has Hillary come out against Joe Lieberman at any point during 2007? Hillary Clinton has not been a outfront leader against Joe Lieberman in the U.S.Senate but now wants to be the next American President?
Has Hillary ever rebuked or repudiated Joe Lieberman anytime during 2007?
Where was any “new leadership of opposition” on Hillarys part by voting for Lieberman/Kyl?
Lack of information,lack of prior record from which to judge,not “knowing” or just plain being stupidly ignorant are no longer the “playable excuses” they were for Hillary Clinton back there in 2002.
Hillary Clinton clearly is sending signals that should she get to the WH as President she will be taking Bush/Cheney/Lieberman styled warmongering attitudes and aggression desires there with her.
Now is the time for the light to shine on in.
Who is backing Hillary Clintons ME More ME WarMake support and greenlighting?
Who has put the money and sway on Hillary Clinton and what are the expected pay-outs and policy goals?
Anyone who still thinks getting Hillary Clinton into the WH as President is going to undo,slow or truly alter what George Bush and Dick Cheney did or do is surely a victim of low information intake or some very convoluted wishful thinking.
Look at Hillary Clintons record on Joe Lieberman,look at her warmongering,pro-occupation tilt for American ME policy and action takes.Look at Hillary Clintons record of votes,what she has said or done about Joe Liebermans poisonous/venom laced DC politics.
Not “knowing” here in late 2007 is no longer a valid or legitimate reason.
Hillary Clinton is sending the signals.
She is for more American WarMake in ME.
Not less.
Hillary Clinton wants to stay in Iraq as the occupier. Hillary Clinton wants an invaded Iran. Hillary Clinton supports Joe Lieberman.
Where then are you? For more Bush/Cheney?
Hillary Clinton is giving Bush/Cheney political cover by voting for Lieberman/Kyl and Hillary Clinton supports Joe Lieberman.
Is Hillary Clinton who you truly want in WH after Jan.2009?
It’s not just Hillary, but the rest of the war-mongering Israel-firster DEMOCRATS…
It makes me ill seeing what is happening with the Democratic Party — out hawking the republicans. Seems Wexler is taking over AIPAC Harman’s position [after she’s been outed http://www.talkingpointsmemo.c.....-congress/ ], hyping up the fear and rhetoric, and covering Israel’s == PRE-EMPTIVE ATTACK ass == at the same time providing absolutely no evidence to the public whatsoever. Unbelievable!
WAKE THE HELL UP PEOPLE!
I truly hope that this site is not going to be censored about Israel, A*P*C and the substantial substantial influence it has over the Democratic Party, my supposed party…
If so, then democracy in the US is dead, because it means that we will never be able to discuss the real reasons behind why our congress members vote and act…
You are killing this country, but suppressing dialogue and reason. Shame Shame.//
My comment here is intended to point out why the top two candidates in the primaries are just unbelievably lame, considering how so many of us want to end our warmaking in the middle east:
Hillary Clinton voted to authorize war with Iraq, back in 2002. Now, she’s voted for war against Iran in 2007. By voting for Kyle/Lieberman.
Barack Obama was absent from the Kyle/Lieberman vote. Good lord, that was an important vote! His absence effectively puts him in favor of war on Iran, too, no matter what he might say about it later.
Harry Reid also voted in favor of the Kyle/Lieberman amendment. With leaders like these…
Why in the world can’t we sway these people? I hope in some small way my comments encourage others to support a different frontrunner than Clinton or Obama.
How about redress of intolerable insults to the ethnic Germans in Sudentenland? Wouldn’t that be an even better reason for strikes against Iran?
Well maybe not better but just as good, surely.
Well if, as the story says, the propaganda rollout now is like that of fall ‘02, then the next war of aggression is undoubtedly scheduled for spring, in hopes of influencing the ‘08 elections the way DeLay’s corrupt toadies made huge gains in ‘02. Classic KKKarl Rove, these people learn nothing.
Of course, lack of any opposition party, in fact Demo. enabling, means the attack will go ahead. “We the people” have no voice anymore, & can’t stop it. As everyone above notes SHillary & the Demo hierarchy care far more for Commander Codpiece and their A*P*C sponsors than for the voters.
Expect the price of oil to skyrocket when Iran & Venezuela cut off our addicted nation. And the Iraqis likely to pair up w/ their Shi’ite brethren & attack the invaders more fiercely.
Our leadership is (a) delusional/ (b) cynical beyond belief, but expects that they’ll profit financially. (a)’s most ReThugs, with the “Gott Mit Uns” motto their SS Brethren wore on belt-buckles in WWII/ (b)’s the Demo. “leadership” & elected officials, incl. “antiwar” folks like Jim (”F**k MoveOn”) Webb & Carl (”I love Holy Joe”) Levin.
Still, a permanent war economy, outsourcing all the manufacturing, destroying union jobs & stealing the treasury blind (say bye-bye to your Social Security, boomers, Grover Norquist will get his wish after all!) do not promise a bright future for most of us.