(Please welcome in the comments Charlie Savage, author of Takeover: The Return of the Imperial Presidency and the Subversion of American Democracy and winner of the Pulitzer Prize for his work on Bush’s signing statements — JH)
Ever since The New York Times revealed the illegal NSA warrantless surveillance program in December, 2005, it has been inescapably clear that the Bush administration is a lawless government, grounded in the belief that nothing — certainly not the rule of law — can limit the President’s powers. Despite how extraordinary this revelation was, very few establishment journalists paid any attention to it at all, and when they did, it was to defend this lawlessness and demand that nothing be done to impede it.
In January, 2006, Joe Klein in Time attacked Nancy Pelosi for daring to speak out against Bush’s NSA lawbreaking and said: “these concerns [i.e., that Bush's eavesdropping is illegal] pale before the importance of the program. It would have been a scandal if the NSA had not been using these tools to track down the bad guys.”
In Newsweek, Eleanor Clift in March, 2006 attacked Russ Feingold for daring to argue that Bush should be censured for his lawbreaking, claiming that Feingold’s efforts to impede Bush’s lawbreaking will doom the Democrats by showing how “unserious” they are with national security: “The broader public sees [Feingold's efforts] as political extremism. Just when the Republicans looked like they were coming unhinged, the Democrats serve up a refresher course on why they can’t be trusted with the keys to the country.”
The New Republic repeatedly ran articles –and still does — excusing, justifying and defending Bush’s lawbreaking. And even through today, establishment-worshipping “journalists” such as The Washington Post’s David Ignatius continue to insist that Democrats must not stand in the way of ever-increasing Presidential powers vested in George Bush — whether that means legalizing more and more warrantless eavesdropping and even providing retroactive liability to lawbreaking telecoms — and that if they do impede any of this, they will be guilty of the Ultimate Beltway Sin: insufficient bipartisanship.
George Bush has been able to pursue an agenda of truly radical executive power theories with impunity because most American journalists have not only stood meekly by and expressed no interest in investigating or exposing any of this conduct, but worse, they have actively defended it. That is why the truly superb and tenacious reporting of The Boston Globe’s Charlie Savage has stood out so nobly and conspicuously. While most of the political press in this country eagerly served as mindless vessels for White House claims about its conduct, Savage actually scrutinized and investigated those claims, exposed how they were false, and tenaciously documented the lawlessness and radicalism of this administration. Put another way, Savage acted as a political journalist should.
Beginning in early 2006, Savage published a series of probing articles in The Globe documenting the various ways the administration was subverting the law — from signing statements to absurd theories of executive power which administration radicals led by Dick Cheney had long embraced. Savage’s reporting almost single-handedly forced the issue of the President’s signing statements into the public eye, and led to Senate hearings held by the Senate Judiciary Committee.
Earlier this year, Savage was awarded a Pulitzer Prize for his reporting on the administration’s executive power abuses. When the Pulitzer was announced, the Globe’s editor provided this explanation — at once unremarkable and extraordinary — as to why Savage deserved the Pulitzer:
What Charlie does and the reason he won this richly deserved Pulitzer is because he covered what the White House does, not just what it says.
More than anything, that is a sad though powerful commentary on the sorry state of our country’s political press. Previously, reporting on “what the government does, not just what it says” was the basic function of political journalism. But these days, journalists who actually do that are so rare — they stand out so conspicuously — that they now win Pulitzer Prizes for it.
Savage has now expanded dramatically on the Pulitzer-winning reporting he did throughout 2006 with his invaluable new book, entitled Takeover: The Return of the Imperial Presidency and the Subversion of American Democracy. There have been several previous books documenting just how radical and democracy-subverting are the Bush administration’s executive power abuses, but the true value of Savage’s book is to assemble all of the facts over the last six years and prove conclusively that virtually every Bush scandal — from eavesdropping and torture to U.S. attorneys dismissals and the politicization of virtually every branch of our government — all stem from the same common root: the decades-long quest by hard-right radicals to transform the nature of our government beyond recognition by vesting virtually unlimited power in the President.
One of the oft-overlooked aspects of these executive power scandals is how central these theories have been — for decades — to the most powerful administration officials, beginning with Dick Cheney, who has vowed since his time in the Ford White House to restore what he views as the majesty of the executive branch. Even for those well-versed in most of the current presidential power controversies, Savage’s book makes the uniquely clear case that virtually everything this administration has done domestically — such as the nominations of John Roberts and Sam Alito, both Reagan DOJ ideologues and long-time executive-power-worshippers — has been devoted to advancing the Cheney worldview of an imperial presidency.
Savage is a reporter, not a polemicist, at his core, and his methods here are the pure stuff of solid, fact-based journalism. There are little dramatic flourishes because the facts which Savage has assembled speak loudly and disturbingly for themselves. Because Savage’s book comes so close to the end of the Bush presidency (though not close enough), Takeover will certainly be one of the definitive accounts of how this administration has so fundamentally transformed the type of country we are.
Related posts:
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes David Swanson, Daybreak: Undoing the Imperial Presidency and Forming a More Perfect Union
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Matthew Kerbel, Netroots: Online Progressives and the Transformation of American Politics
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Dahr Jamail, The Will to Resist: Soldiers Who Refuse to Fight in Iraq and Afghanistan
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Douglas A. Blackmon, Slavery By Another Name
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Eric Boehlert, Bloggers on the Bus: How the Internet Changed Politics and the Press





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Welcome, Mr. Savage~
Here
Welcome. How wonderful of you to be here!
Charlie and Glenn
Welcome to the Lake! Important work you are both doing.
Greetings, Mr. Savage!
Welcome, Charlie!! Your reporting does us all proud.
I have been wondering for a long time now, that our Congresspeeps are being blackmailed. i can think of no other reason for their consistant rolling over into submission on everyting. What do you think?
a pleasure to be sure to have both of you here lakeside ;o)
Thank you for joining us, Mr. Savage. Nice intro, Mr. Greenwald. Thank you for that, too.
i’ll be popping in and out groan….company showed up :(
Hello
Yes it is great work you both are doing and thanks Charlie for coming by.
After reading SY Hersh today do you think there is a way for the people to stop this Imperial Govt. before this happens?
jo6pac
Welcome, Mr. Savage. The signing statements are up in the 700’s, now, aren’t they? How can these be legal?
Hi everyone – I just want to underscore that even for those who know a huge amount about executive power controversies — and I believe that probably includes most FDL readers — there are insights and reporting in Takeover that has not been presented anywhere before.
Hello! Thanks for the flattering introduction, Glenn, and thanks to Firedoglake for inviting me to take part in today’s book salon discussion.
I am writing this from my parents’ home in Fort Wayne, Indiana, where I grew up. I came in late last week for a discussion at Indiana Tech, where my father is a professor, and I’ll be at the Ford Presidential Library at the UMich campus in Ann Arbor on Tuesday, at Harvard Law School on Wednesday, at the Old South Meeting House in downtown Boston on Thursday, and at Busboys & Poets on U Street in Washington next Friday. I’ll also be on the Colbert Report this Monday night, though that will be more fun than substantive, probably.
Anyway, I look forward to speaking with you all today, and invite you to check out my book!
Welcome, Charlie.
He’s here folks, reading Glenn’s introduction. I just got off the phone with him.
So, what does a Pulitzer look like?
Heh.
Charlie,
In blogs whether writing front page posts or comments, we have a habit of being able to emphasize parts we want to scream out at people. In a book such as yours the format doesn’t really encourage that.
Having just finished the book and finding many pages to flag, I’d like to ask you this, Given the opportunity to use text to scream out boldly the points you want us to see most emphatically, what would they be?
Glenn, the link to buy the book isn’t working for me.
And, re our media, someone here at the lake suggested that their sole duty was to keep the above mentioned congresspeeps deluded and isolated from reality. That the press is no longer even entertainment but now into GOP manipulation of Congress.
Welcome Charlie Savage and Glenn Greenwald!
Two for the price of one. YOWSA!
Charlie, I’ve got my own copy of your book right here. Couldn’t seem to wait for the local library.
My question is where does Edwin Meese fit into this long-planned “takeover”?
He seems to be a central figure behind the scenes with all Federal Court nominees, particularly the Supremes amd most particularly with John Roberts and his
posthasteinstantaneous promotion to Chief Justice after William Rehnquist died, but also with the anti-federal Federalist Society incubation chamber.Oh boy! Stephen vs. Charlie. Can’t wait.
Thanks so much, Glenn. And welcome, Charlie.
It seems as though the press is starting to realize what they’ve enabled. Do you see this too?
Charlie — Welcome to FDL. Love your work, and love this book. Folks, if you haven’t read it, you really should — it is fantastic.
Am wondering what you are hearing with regard to the Cheney back-channels at the DOJ now that Gonzales and his lax management style are going out the door. Will we be seeing changes in tenor do you think, or will that have to wait for the next administration?
Welcome! I’m wondering…do you think W/Dick are planning to leave office at the end of the term? Also, what’s your take on Blackwater expanding domestically. What are the ultimate goals of this Administration?
Loo Hoo. @ 16
Works for me. The picture of the cover is a working link, too.
One more thing. Do you think they will bomb Iran and Syria?
The Big Questions:
1. Will Bush actually leave office?
2. If he does will Hillary take up where he left off?
Power never acedes to reason, IMO — only force.
RevDeb @ 15
The big picture of the book is to explain, in great detail and in a readable narrative, the myriad ways in which the Bush-Cheney administration has expanded presidential power. Glenn has focused on establishing a right to bypass laws in the name of national security, and on the unprecedented explosion of signing statements as a means of advancing its theory of exclusive presidential powers. Others include the choices of presidentialist lawyers for the Supreme Court, the centralization of control over the executive branch bureaucracy in the White House, the dramatic escalation of executive secrecy, locking down a precedent allowing presidents to pull out of major ratified treaties without first going to the Senate, imprisoning US citizens without trial, and statutes won from Congress that have expanded the president’s power to impose martial law over a state governor’s objections, cutting off court jurisdiction for detainee lawsuits, etc. It’s not any one thing, so much as the accumulation of everything that is staggering to grasp. Too often these controversies have been discussed in isolation, without the broader context of how they fit into the full agenda, and where that agenda is coming from.
The other major contribution of the book, I hope, is to answer that second question — motivation. Two chapters are devoted to a history of executive power, especially from Watergate to the end of the Clinton years, interwoven with a history of Dick Cheney. It’s abundantly clear that Cheney has been the driving force behind this particular policy goal of the administration, and that his motivation dates back to his own experiences as White House Chief of Staff to Gerald Ford in the mid 1970s, at the post-Watergate/Vietnam moment when Congress was reimposing constitutional controls on the so-called “imperial presidency.” When one looks closely at what Cheney was doing and saying at each stage of his career since then, you can see that restoring presidential power to the peak that it briefly reached under Nixon before Watergate has been his 30-year agenda.
And now it is the most successfully implemented policy of this administration.
Welcome, Charlie and Glenn.
A person I haven’t seen much on yet:
The Director of the Office of Special Plans (created to cherry-pick/fix the facts for invading Iraq), Abram Shulsky, was an avowed Straussian. And as such, he apparently openly advocated his belief that lying and deception were very good things in politics — that he learned from Strauss that “deception is the norm in political life.” (quote from The New Humanist, May/June, 2007, in an article by Dr. Shadia Drury, Research Chair in Social Justice at the U. of Regina in Saskatchewan).
If this is true, he may be equally or even more instrumental than Wolfowitz in having set in motion the Administration’s policy deception on Iraq.
Are there any books or articles out on Shulsky, his (open?) policy of lying and on the scope of his influence on providing the false data? Seems there certainly should be.
And where is he now?
Thanks!
Charlie – One thing I wanted to ask you – I think that over the last year or so, we’ve seen a bit of a swing back away from this framework of unilateral executive power, but not in a way that is encouraging.
More and more, Congress has simply taken every lawless administration act — from surveillance to torture to detention — and legalized it, giving in the stamp of legal approval.
How does that affect your analysis – is the problem, as you see it, still that we have a runaway executive branch breaking the law in secret, or is it now that we have an unprecedently compliant Congress willing to give the President whatever power he wants?
Welcome Charlie. Congrats on the book. Mine’s on order.
How do you distinguish the work you do that enabled you to look into the signing statement issue from the work of other journalists who cover the White House, such as the White House Press Corps?
Thank you Glenn and Charlie for doing what you do so well. I think one aspect of this administration that may be under appreciated is their incessant efforts to install party apparatchiks into all federal agencies at levels where career employees had traditionally been employed.
linky
a couple of questions:
1. what’s the point of all this “imperial presidency” effort being put out by cheney, et al?
what end “state” (no pun intended) do they expect to arrive at?
is most of this based on a personal obsession of cheney’s from his early white house experiences?
or is it a movement?
i’m thinking here of the persistent efforts of the federalist society over about twenty years to influence the federal judiciary.
2. do any of those pursuing the expansion of presidential powers have any evident intellectual connection with past dictatorships, one-party states, or monarchies.
i am NOT asking “are they commies, etc”.
i am asking whether there are any conversations or publications among the “imperial president” types that indicates they are borrowing ideas from history vis-a-vis governments with one-man rule.
Hi Mr. Savage, and the rest of this luminous bunch.
It seems to me that that this executive overreach couldn’t happen if most Americans weren’t comfortable with it. Most of the population who have recently swung against the administration are doing it without changing that narrative. “Incompetence” is a poor reason to reject these people. It implies that a more “competent” authoritarian movement would be somehow more acceptable. Is this irrevocably woven into modern American society? (Present company excluded, of course.)
I don’t want to hog the time but I have lots of questions.
In your writing on the Justices and their inclination to support the imperial presidency, you didn’t mention Kennedy per se. Do you have any research that would shed light on where he comes down on this issue? It would seem that since he is now the swing vote that this would be important to know.
You wrote about the Reynolds case regarding holding the details of a plane crash 50 years ago as state secrets being revealed as being a fraud. I do remember reading something about this a while ago, but there has been no real journalistic push to put this front and center. It would seem that this should be a tool that the dems could use (if they had a spine) to make some headway in the secrecy that the administration uses to cloak over everything. Since the courts threw it out, it should be open for use by congress. Any thoughts?
Welcome Mr. Greenwald and Mr. Savage,
and thank you for your excellent reporting.
Does either of you know what is up with these Executive Orders. issued on Friday ?
Charlie Savage @ 27
Considering the “asymetrical intimidation,” as Paul Krugman calls it, that the right wing is so fond of, have you been on the receiving end of any? I’m imagining they’re not particularly happy with your work, which is BTW fantastic.
LS @ 25
It’s beyond my sphere of expertise to predict what is likely to happen in this area. But I can say this: it is clear that this administration believes that, legally, it does not need to consult Congress, let along obtain its authorization, before taking such an action. It is also clear that there is less and less that the other branches can do about what they might see as executive branch overreaches as the time ticks down toward January 20, 2009. In December 2005, after the warrantless wiretapping program was revealed, Cheney mentioned the 1973 War Powers Resolution, which requires the commander in chief to consult with Congress before dispatching troops into combat situations. He said it was an unconstitutional constraint on the president’s core powers and he said that the War Powers Resolution “will be tested” at some point. The context of his remarks was that he believed that FISA, which the warrantless wiretapping program appeared to violate, was also unconstitutional and so it was perfectly legal for the president to bypass it with what is now called the TSP. One of the themes of “Takeover” is that the administration has sought not only to solve their short-term problems (e.g., the need to wiretap in October 2001, or Iran today), but to do so in a manner that sets precedents that also strengthen the presidency for the long term.
RevDeb @ 35
Deb is your biggest fan, Charlie.
Greetings, Mr. Savage;
I don’t know if you are prepared to deal with a question whose answer will likely require speculation; building on Kathryn’s question
(@ #6), have you any idea why the opposition party refuses to behave as an opposition party?
Evidently they expect to be rewarded for not protecting the Constitution, by being given both the White House and control of Congress. They clearly expect to be hailed as ‘liberators’ and greeted with flowers. Such expectations often go astray.
Welcome, Mssrs. Savage and Greenwald.
I actually bought the book – a rare hardcover purchase for me – but reading it is so depressing (not the fault of the writing, just the content) or infuriating I haven’t gotten very far.
Still, I congratulate you for having the courage and discipline to put this together. It’s very important to see it all, as you say, in one place.
Do you get any pushback from the newspaper management, efforts to kill your stories?
Btw, it was here or The Next Hurrah where most of us were first introduced to your work on signing statements.
I don’t know what y’all are talking about. I ain’t seen any subversion of democracy. If that were the case, you’d be seeing them vote against it in Congress.
thanks for your visit, Mr Savage!
in the (good?) ol’ days,
they had to hire ‘plumbers’,
to break into the
DNC headquarters at the Watergate Hotel,
to physically plant a wired microphone
in order to eaves drop on the
conversations of the
Democratic National Committee.
NOW?
they just terrorize the whole country
into manipulating the courts,
And Congress,
(with a lot of help from their TelCo friends)
into giving them
unlimited access to
every communication any Democrat ever makes,
without any oversight
what
so
ever.
old days: they used petty crimes for their evil.
nowadays: they shred the Constitution.
would we say that Mr. Savage’s book documents their transition from the first approach to the second?
Glenn Greenwald @ 29
I prefer not to frame it as a “problem, as I see it,” but rather to explain and describe what is happening, as I see it, and to let others say whether it is a problem. That said, you are right that Congress has in the past year twice passed legislation that locked down in statute powers that the Bush-Cheney administration had claimed as inherent and exclusive powers on its own. The Military Commissions Act of 2007 and the Protect America Act of 2007 gave statutory approval for holding US citizens as enemy combatants, wiretapping many US-to-overseas phone calls without a warrant, holding foreigners at Guantanamo without legal recourse, preventing the Geneva Conventions from getting in the way of some harsh interrogation techniques, trying terror suspects before military commissions, etc.
This is an interesting development. The Constitution does give Congress broad powers to set rules and regulations for how the executive branch carries out its national security responsibilities, so statutory approval changes the equation about the legality of those specific policies.
I think a couple things can be said about the impact of this:
1. Such statutes have allowed the executive branch to consolidate its specific policy gains by making it much less likely that the courts will strike such powers down.
2. Such statutes have also allowed put armor around the executive branch’s legal claims to unilateral powers in that area, because now it is less likely that we will see another “Hamdan” style decision. The claims that a president can bypass laws and treaties in this area thus survive without further judicial repudiation, and will be available to future presidents (of both parties) in future controversies and crises that we cannot today imagine.
3. It is clear that the politics of presidential power — the ability of a president to invoke fears that we will be attacked in order to request and receive either congressional acquiescence to novel claims or additional inherent powers, or affirmative statutes delegating such powers to the president, was not only effective during the era of one-party rule, but continues to be effective now that control of the WH and Congress is split. So I think this is a dynamic we will continue to see, even past January 2009.
Hi,
Thank you both for your work!
As some people have mentioned, given this administrations refusal to allow anyone to know what they are doing and the amount of power they have given themselves why on Jan 21, 2009 are they going to walk out the door and leave everything behind?
Jill
allan_in_upstate @ 36
Regarding that, there is a lot in the book about signing statements. It would seem that another avenue of analysis needs to be executive orders. It would be impossible to believe that he hasn’t abused that power as well. But that power has not been talked about much by the press. Might that be a subject you would see fit to undertake?
There are a lot of great questions rolling in and I feel like I’m not keeping up with them. I need to write shorter answers! Apologies for my longwindedness.
Kagro X @ 42
Wouldn’t you think…
I will be glad to attack Nancy Pelosi for taking impeachment off the table.
Jill @ 45
I hope there out in 09
jo6pac
RevDeb @ 46
There are several executive orders that are particularly interesting. One of the ones the book focuses on is the one that enabled the offices of faith-based initiatives to get set up throughout the bureaucracy and forced grant-making agencies to start giving money to religious-based groups that discriminate in hiring people who aren’t of the same faith, or that proselytize in the same place that they distribute taxpayer-funded aid, is one that the book examines. Initially the administration thought it needed Congress to change the law so that it could give government money to religious groups like that, but eventually Bush just changed the rules on his own.
Signing Statements, btw, is just one of the 13 chapters in the book. It is not really an expansion of the signing statements coverage, other than in the very general theme of exploring the many different tactics the administration has used to concentrate more unchecked power in the White House — of which SS’s are just one example.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 49
This book contains everything that one needs to know to make a sure fire case for impeachment. Maybe we need to do a a book delivery project of Takeover like we did Crashing the Gates and get one to every dem in congress.
David W. Bartoo @ 40
David, thank you for rephrasing my question so it is ready for prime time. :-)
Mahalo, Charlie and Glenn! Are there any viable cases refuting the Signing Statements, wending through the Judiciary? If so, when will the Supremes be looking at them?
I’ve got a proble with the noun ‘return’. I don’t think it is a return; we are seeing the first edition of the Imperial Presidency, not a re-run. Nixon talked a good game, but in the end, his imperial presidency was about as imperial as the tin soldiers he got dressed up like drum majors for his honour guard. It looked like something out of Groucho Marx.
What we are seeing is something new, vicious, and deeply disturbing. And possibly irreparable, though all of us here are doing our best to stem the damage. It may be that only a severe military defeat can undo the damage to our Constitution that has been wrought by the coup-d’etat of December, 2000.
Understood – journalistic objectivity and all that, though the title of your book “TAKEOVER” and “Return of the Imperial Presidency” and “THE SUBVERSION OF AMERICAN DEMOCRACY” suggests rather stronly that you see it as a problem.
What do you think of Michael Hayden, head of the CIA. I was interested to learn that his efforts to retroactively legalize wiretapping may have roots in his role in the private sector, where it looks like he was one of those involved in the wiretapping.
Great honor to have you here, Mr. Savage.
RevDeb @ 52
I will assume that the Speaker has not read the book. Or if she has, it doesn’t matter. Either way, pity.
I’d support some version of delivering the book to Congresscritters – but doubt they would take the time to read it. Is there a precis in a few pages that could pique their interest? Maybe develop something from the book’s proposal?
I don’t have much faith in our reprsentatives’ willingness to do the hard work, as you can see.
RevDeb @ 35
Kennedy, unlike Roberts, Alito, Scalia (and to a lesser extent Thomas), was not an executive branch lawyer prior to becoming a judge. He did not spend years advocating for stronger executive powers and handling fights over presidential authority from the White House’s perspective. (That description fits Roberts, Alito, and Scalia perfectly — Thomas seems to have arrived at his presidentialist views with less personal experience.) So he is not part of the four-member conservative bloc in this way, among others. I think it would take one more appointment to establish a firm presidentalist majority. Given that the four dissenters in Hamdan (counting Roberts at the appeals court level) are more than 12 years younger than the five on average (Kennedy among them), it is likely that Bush or some other president, one or two cycles from now, will have a good chance at getting that fifth vote.
The Reynolds case is fascinating. Louis Fisher has done the best work on this and has written an entire book about the fraud on which the State Secrets Privilege precedent is based. A few years ago, after it was revealed that there was no classified information in the crash report that the Truman administration withheld from the widows in the case that establishes the state secrets privilege, some family members of the dead scientists tried to get the case reopened to scrap that precedent. An appeals court threw the case out on the theory that it had been too long. Among the appeals court judges who protected this increasingly important precedent for executive power was one Sam Alito.
tejanarusa @ 60
We could simply write them, “Do you like Article I? You do? Then you’d better get on the stick and impeach.”
tejanarusa @ 60
‘Cliff’ notes for the ’spineless’?
tejanarusa @ 60
And isn’t it pathetic that we who have unrelated day jobs do take the time and energy to be so concerned about the things that we elect them to care about and protect our interests—like justice?
The book really shows how the dems are either a) asleep at the switch or b) complicit in the hijacking of our Constitution. Take your pick.
Glenn Greenwald @ 56
quite, right.
journalistic integrity,
shmernalistic insmegrity,
though.
i got a problem with folks who don’t see it as a problem.
no offense intend.
Hi Charlie; Hi Glenn
Charlie: Have you asked your fellow journalists why they have been so reluctant to examine these abuses of presidential power?
The faith-based initiatives are a-priori unconstitutional are they not?
Something else comes to mind. Has anyone besides me noticed how the lower-level Rethug plants in the government (and most of the higher-level ones) refer to the executive officers in each agency as ‘management’? It’s been a long time since I worked in Washington, but in my day they were called supervisors (at the low level) and at higher levels known by their exact title. I don’t think I ever heard the term ‘manager’ in the contexts it gets bandied about today. The connotation is that managers give orders, subalterns obey.
There is to be sure a chain of command in every organization, but this goes beyond what we used to think as government, in which the tasks are parcelled out in ways that permit each division to do its job according to its legislative mandate. There is supervision, but it isn’t as though the bosses have unrestricted power over their employees. In fact, the subalterns aren’t employees of their supervisors and ‘managers’. They are employed by the American people.
All this to suggest how the terminology of the American corporation has infested our national government.
Glenn and Charlie — I’d like to ask what each of your regards as the most egregious abuse of executive power that is occurring — and not being sufficiently covered by today’s media? Where would you like to see more focus by reporters and/or bloggers?
Charlie Savage @ 38
Is there any chance that he and others will be brought to justice for their “tests” of the Constitution?
Neither today’s Republican or Democratic Parties are the party of our mothers and fathers. What this country needs is a truly progressive, revolutionary, transformative party.
Charlie,
Can Bush technically not even bother with signing statements and just assert he can do whatever he wants because it’s the “War on Terrah” (or whatever “war” God and/or a screaming voice in his head tells him it is), and in the interest of “national security” during a state of “war,” can therefore override any legislation at will?
Thanks!
The Speaker seems immovable and immutable on the issue of impeachment.
Speaking of Clarance Thomas, glimpses of his new book shows his abiding hatred of Liberals – hardly a trait conducive to fair and impartial judgment!
Jane Hamsher @ 37 snip
Thank you! I get hate voicemails/emails from time to time, but the fact that some prominent conservative luminaries such as George F. Will have endorsed my book has helped serve as body armor in that regard. In addition, my work has been more about making better sense of things that are in the public record already, or about getting things into the public record that were secret but not classified through interviews with people who were in closed-door White House meetings. The major way in which journalists have been attacked has been for writing about classified matters, such as CIA prisons and the wiretapping program, but I don’t really fit that model.
I have also tried very hard to emphasize that this issue — the concentration of more powers into fewer hands — is above politics. The next president will inherit the arsenal this administration has developed, and that president could be Hillary Clinton. One needs only look at Hillary’s failure to keep her health care task force secret in 1993-94, and Cheney’s success in keeping his energy task force secret, thereby leaving behind a precedent that will allow all future White Houses to keep such work secret, to see that presidential power is not a partisan issue.
Bush, after the ‘06 election made a joke about “well at least we had elections.” I’ve always thought this was forshadowing. Now Naomi Wolf is talking about 10 indicators every dictatorship exhibited prior to shutting down the government and we’ve exhibited all ten of them…?
Kagro x, David W Bartoo, and RevDeb-
absolutely agree with you all.
Of course, RevDeb, you know Congress folks are wa-a-y too busy protecting our
democracycorporations to read whole books./sI want replacements for the Bush enablers, Pelosi and Reid.
tejanarusa @ 41
The Boston Globe has been extremely supportive of these stories. They were also supportive of the book project and allowed me to take the current leave I am on to go around the country talking about “Takeover.” I think they are looking forward to getting me back into the daily newspaper pages again — and I’m looking forward to the faster pace again, too!
Bluetoe @ 70
Amen-the current congressional democrats have been a colossal disappointment. Not even the obvious will of the people seems to be enough for them to take their opposition role seriously. It’s a dangerous disgrace.
tejanarusa @ 60
try this:
we send it to them;
tell them it is essential they read it;
let them know we will be checking back;
then;
a week later or so;
we begin
to ask them questions about their reaction to it’s particular passages;
every day …
they are supposed to represent us.
Do you think Hillary has ‘found time’ to read this book?
Knut Wicksell @ 55
I disagree. The original imperial presidency was real, and it wasn’t just Nixon. It began when Truman took the US into war against North Korea in 1950 without going to Congress for permission, and it extended into LBJ’s americanizing the Vietnam War without congressional permission, and presidents of both parties successfully withholding all kinds of information from Congress and the public and the courts, and the dramatic expansion of CIA’s activities, including on US soil. It had real world consequences, and was not just rhetoric. I highly recommend Arthur Schlesinger Jr.’s 1973 book “The Imperial Presidency,” which is a wonderful history of executive power up to the Watergate moment.
Charlie Savage @ 78
I;m glad/relieved to hear it. I was once a faithful reader of the Globe -it was a fabulous paper back in the ’70’s, especially for someone who had been stuck w/ the Indy Star. (I’m an ex-Hoosier, too! Proud to see you’re from Ft. Wayne.)
Thank you, gentlemen.
I am wondering either of your thoughts on the scenario of attempted takeover by these Neo-cons and the Military reaction or inaction to this. If their attempt some how fails, do either of you believe they(Neos) could and would take the entire US ideals,values and economic systems down with them, and rip us apart from the inside out?
Over what duation of time could this happen, if you choose to comment.
Thanks
How does an “imperial presidency” differ from a dictatorship? Which is better?
Scarecrow
I think it’s difficult to pick the single most egregious, so I would note several things in response to your question –
(1) The clearest cut case there is of presidential lawbreaking is warrantless eavesdropping. The fact that nothing has happened from this — no meaningful investigations and no criminal prosecutions, not even censure — stands as the most egregious case of political malfesasance our country has.
(2) The administration has still successfully hid behind the impenetrable wall of secrecy it erected using the tools Charlie documents in his book — from invocation of state secrets privileges to all sorts of classification abuses. I think that what remains conceals outweighs — in terms of significance and corruption — what has been disclosed.
(3) As I’m sure Kagro X will readily agree, the few efforts to investigate and force dislcosure from the Congress have been shockingly anemic. They issue subpoenas, demand documents and information, and it is all ignored or outright defied, and nothing happens.
As I suggested, I think the problem has shifted from a lawless executive to a submissive and malfeasant Congress, both in terms of enforcing the law and exercising basic oversight duties.
Charlie,
Is there a schedule of your book tour posted somewhere? If not, are you coming to the Philly area any time soon?
Scarecrow –
To add one thing – I think the administration would definitely argue that it has the power to attack Iran without Congressional approval (either because of the President’s Article II powers inherently and/or because they will say the Iraq AUMF authorizes it).
I don’t know if that will become an issue — I think they will attack Iran, but that is speculation – and I think there is a good chance that Congress would authorize it. But if Congress refused, they would probably do it anyway, and that would probably be the most egregious case yet of presidential power abuses.
Charlie Savage @ 82
I disagree. The original imperial presidency was real, and it wasn’t just Nixon. It began when Truman took the US into war against North Korea in 1950 without going to Congress for permission, and it extended into LBJ’s americanizing the Vietnam War without congressional permission, and presidents of both parties successfully withholding all kinds of information from Congress and the public and the courts, and the dramatic expansion of CIA’s activities, including on US soil. It had real world consequences, and was not just rhetoric. I highly recommend Arthur Schlesinger Jr.’s 1973 book “The Imperial Presidency,” which is a wonderful history of executive power up to the Watergate moment.
Thanks for doing the work to demonstrate that. I think we of the Watergate generation-formative years are too inclined to blame it all on Nixon.
I just skimmed pp.169-71 on the State Secrets Privilega and the Reynolds case–and am stunned by how long ago admins were pulling this stuff. And how, as usual, all the bs about endangering national security turns out to be just a cover-uup of negligence or incompetence.
Greetings Mr. Savage and GG. Nothing substantive from me, just wanted to say thank you for your work.
CTuttle @ 54
It’s very hard to get courts to rule on the merits on any of the signing statements, since they necessarily deal with the line between the power of Congress and the power of the president. Most of the time, no one has standing to sue, and even if they do, courts try to punt the issue as a “political one.” And that’s not even counting those that deal with classified matters, when no one knows what is going on or the State Secrets Privilege can be used to get it out of court.
This is the loophole. The president can just instruct the executive branch to comply, and it becomes a “fact on the ground” that is exceedingly difficult to challenge.
There was a story in the New York Sun a couple days ago that illustrates this. Congress passed a law saying that US citizens born in Jerusalem shall have “Israel” stamped on their passports as their country of birth. Bush put a signing statement on that law saying he has exclusive control of foreign affairs, so the executive branch shouldn’t obey this law.
This is a rare case where someone did have standing to sue – a person who wanted their passport to say “Israel” only the State Department refused to comply with the law because of the signing statement. A federal judge threw the case out, saying it was a political matter that Congress and the White House would have work out on their own.
http://www.nysun.com/article/63010
In your view, what needs to be done, from a technical, legal point of view, to “re-balance” the three branches of US government and undo the precedents of the Imp. Pres.?
Could it be done legislatively with support from a sympathetic executive? Or do we need a Constitutional Covention? What . . ?
Glenn Greenwald @ 86
In which case, Glenn, do you foresee this administration and it’s minions actually handing over power to the dems should they manage to win the White House in 08? Or will they either find a way to steal the election as they have before or make up a reason to declare martial law?
Thanks for coming to talk with us. I am very glad that there are still real reporters in this country like Charlie Savage. I am distressed by some of his answers here toaday, particularly regarding the difficulty of reducing overly broad and vague executive powers following congressional acquiesence, both explicity and passively implicit through doing nothing.
It seems that only a very aggressive congress will be able to fix the problem. One that is willing to impeach mutliple officials, use inherent contempt proceedings to put people in jail for the rest of the term to get the truth, and even impeach justices who would, say, use the weak precedent of congressional acquiesence to find new constitutional powers for the president.
This may not be Mr. Savages, beat, but do you think such an aggressive congress is possible? Can the people get excited enough, and understand the problem well enough to elect the required congress?
Another part of the problem is the national affairs corporate media who have turned national politics into something like the court of some King Louie? How can that be fixed?
Glenn said:
Have you been reading FDL lately? That’s sure the way the opinion is trending here, I think. I know my DH has reached the point of being as angry at Pelosi and Reid as at Bush and Cheney.
Will President HRC prove to be imperial?
Could Congress just make a law stating that laws, as they are written, take legal precedence over signing statements??
Oklahoma kiddo @ 96
Yes.
Kagro X @ 42
You a funny man, Kagro.
Charlie,
Thanks again for joining us.
As you can see, we have a highly engaged and informed groups, eager to pick your brain (and buy your book!)
You’ve been with us an hour, and we hope you can stay longer, but if you actually have family duties this Sunday and need to go soon, let me thank you once again. Just give us a shout when you have to head out.
Also, feel free to stop by later and check out any other questions that surface: I’m sure there will be plenty. If you’d like to offer late responses, you can use this thread until 5PM EST tomorrow, or you can send me an email as well.
Thanks also to Glenn for, once again, facilitating such a fine conversation.
yellowdog jim @ 65
Yes the title is aggressive. The book company didn’t like the one I sugested.
Glenn Greenwald @ 56
I’d just like to note that when I say “the subversion of American democracy” I am talking about American-style democracy — the Founders’ system of using checks and balances to prevent the concentration of government power.RevDeb @ 87
http://www.charliesavage.com/events.htm
No Philly appearances on the schedule right now. I have to get back to my Globe job in a few weeks (I’m on unpaid leave now), so it’s a pretty compressed tour.
Just out of curiosity, Mr. Savage — did you get a Journalism degree? Or might you have gotten an old-fashioned “liberal education?” You just seem so much better-informed and better-educated than most younger reporters, I just wondered.
Didn’t the ABA review Bush’s unprecedented use of signing statements and determine that it warranted concern and a more formal investigation? If I am remembering correctly what ever happened with that recommendation?
Thank you, Charlie for this stimulating hour and for your work.
Thank you, Glenn for all the work you do.
Thank you Jane, for making this possible today.
So to cut to the chase Charlie, what would be the thing that could be done to reign the imperial presidency back in?
Or could anything do it? I ask that because it seems to me that this presidency has also managed another remarkable feat — it ignores professional shame and political norms that have heretofore helped curb the excesses of previous administrations.
Which suggest to me that even the threat or frankly act of impeachment would do little to curb this administration’s assumption of more and more power.
Your informed guess?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 96
It will be very interesting to watch the next president, especially if he/she is a Democrat, and what they do with these powers he/she will inherit. If he/she does exercise these powers for his/her own ends, it will do much to further embed these principles into our law going forward. On the other hand, even if he/she takes a more mainstream view — for example, by asking Congress to change the rules if he/she thinks the rules are bad, rather than asserting a right to ignore the rules at his/her own discretion — in the long run it may make little difference. These actions are now precedents, and nothing is to prevent some other president 10, 20, 50 years from now from invoking them. Their Office of Legal Counsel will opine that it is well established that a president can do X, since back at the early 21st Century a president did do X, and that shows it can be done.
That said, I think all the major presidential candidates of both parties should be forced to answer detailed questions about what their views on presidential power are, and what limits — if any — they would respect on their own authority if voters entrust one of them with the White House. Debate moderators and my fellow journalists on the campaign trail should not let them keep their silence about this before Election Day.
Everyone likes power and thinks that they can be trusted to do the right thing with it.
Charlie,
Any plans to take a look at the story surrounding the classification procedures of the executive agencies, where the Office of the Vice President fits in, the OVP’s failure to comply with the Information Security Oversight Office protocols, the ISOO’s complaint against OVP to the Attorney General, and the subsequent resignation of both the AG and the head of the ISOO?
Hint, hint…
Charlie @ 101:
“when I say “the subversion of American democracy” I am talking about American-style democracy — the Founders’ system of using checks and balances to prevent the concentration of government power”
That is one profound statement. So, it now seems that we have a “Homeland-style system”. I wonder if everything they write… signing statements, or laws, or policies, substituting the designation “Homeland” for “The United States of America”, could be considered unconstitutional. Just thinking out loud.
Just think. In a couple of years we may have a Democratic prez who’s bombing Iran and a Democratic Congress supplying the money.
Jill @ 102
Yes there was a task force—pp. 244-247 in the book in response to issuing signing statements because the pres. thinks the law is unconstitutional they replied:
tejanarusa @ 102
I earned an undergraduate degree in English and American Literature and Language, and a one-year master’s degree in law. My college did not offer a journalism major, but I interned for a newspaper every summer.
Charlie Savage @ 106
Exactly. And so far none of the debates have touched on this to my knowledge.
Jill @ 75
Yes, that’s why I brought it up.
jo6pac
Charlie,
What kind of reception has the book gotten so far from book reviewers, politicians, or other journalists?
RevDeb @ 112
Is there any chance that any of these folks will go to jail for breaking all these laws?
If a Democratic Congress has not the courage to take on a Republican imperial president, how can a Democratic Congress be expected to take on a Democratic imperial president?
Jill @ 102
I thought Laurence Tribe painted a better picture of the problem in his critique of the ABA review, if not necessarily in terms of defining the problem, then at least in identifying problems with the proposed solution.
I recommend reading that along with the ABA’s review.
From the answers, if it’s true the “problem” has shifted from the regime’s aggressive reach for unlimited power — it’s done — to Congress’ passive/sometimes active enabling/endorsement — do either of you see the media shifting its attention in a critical way to the failures of Congress — and are there signs more of the media are starting to play this necessary role?
We need hope and a strategy. And a point of attack. Where are they?
cvcobb01 @ 105
When one looks back at history, executive power has acted like a one-way ratchet. That is, it has proven much easier to increase than to roll back again. After Watergate brought down the original imperial presidency that had grown up amid the early Cold War, Congress started performing meaningful oversight for the first time in years (notably the Church Committee) and passed a slew of new laws to channel and control executive power. But that moment proved fleeting. Starting in the 1980s, as new people were in power and new policies were being fought over, the backlash moment faded and most of those controls began to erode away. The War Powers Resolution proved to be a paper tiger, the enhancements to the Freedom of Information Act did not play out as anticipated, and after Iran-Contra and Whitewater, Congress let the Independent Counsel law expire. FISA and the Federal Advisory Committee Act were among the few reform laws left intact by the time the Bush-Cheney administration took office — and now both have been seriously hollowed out.
This is a critical insight to understanding just how far the ball has been moved down the field in the last six or seven years. Cheney, driving this expansion of executive power as an end to itself, was still living in that mid-1970s moment. But most of what angered him had already melted away. They weren’t filling in a valley; they were building on a mountaintop.
And naturally we have come to expect politicians to promise one thing and do another.
Charlie Savage, do you think our country be saved from the current slippery slope to an imperial dictatorship or do I need to start a burka company…now to get a head start? ;-)
Some might argue that Pelosi, with the “impeachment off the table business” is setting a very dangerous precedent.
Thank you, Charlie and Glenn
Do you, (or any of you) feel that some kind of national action such as a General Strike (as suggested by Garret Keiser in Harpers) could be effective in mobilizing our population against the lawlessness of our administration?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 121
But the Democratic contenders won’t promise to withdraw by 2013 even though they know they always have the right to reverse themselves and 68% of the country wants the troops out within 5 years. What’s with that?
Kagro X @ 117
Basically there were two schools of thought. Both agreed there was a problem with the Bush-Cheney signing statements, but they disagreed about the nature of the problem.
School A (the ABA) said that signing statements were per se unconstitutional, that this practice of signing but not enforcing/obeying putatively unconstitutional sections of bills was something that had grown up but that the Founders never intended presidents to have, and that all presidents must either veto a bill or sign it and enforce/obey all of it.
School B (mostly Clinton-era presidential lawyers, but also Tribe) thought that signing statements could be constitutional and useful if the president is pushing a mainstream understanding of the Constitution, but the problem was that the Bush-Cheney team was using the device to push a radical theory that most scholars thought was false. They said that the problem was the theory, not the mechanism.
Actually there was a 3rd school, who thought that everything was just fine even as the B-C legal team was using signing statements. They all were current or former GOP executive branch lawyers.
tejanarusa @ 102
Sometimes — depending on the context — a degree can mean another good mind has been screwed up, that only years of re-education, self-education and therapy could fix.
Isn’t it ironic that I trust John Dean far more that I trust just about any in my own Democratic Party?
I hope I’m not too late to welcome both Glenn and Charlie to the Lake! (Just got back home.)
Good and important topic. Glenn, I appreciated your column recently on the role of the military in preventing(?) Cheney from starting nuclear warfare with Iran. Now if we could just get Congress to pay attention– and to care– about Charlie’s book!
Bob in HI
That’s what gave the game away: Meet the New Boss — Same as the Old Boss.
RevDeb @ 113
I’ll swing at that friendly softball! :-)
It’s gotten great reviews so far. The San Francisco Chronicle was first out of the box with a very flattering review:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/…..=printable
and last week the New York Times also had a review that did a great job of explaining the central thrust of the book:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09…..5kaku.html
Haven’t gotten much feedback from current politicians, though Mickey Edwards, the former Republican congressman (he now teaches political science at Princeton), did provide a very nice blurb for it.
Imagine. An aggressive Democratic imperial president and a docile Democratic Congress.
Has it gotten to the point where Bush is the only thing left in Cheney’s way?
Perhaps the only way out is public financing of campaigns. No guarantees of course. Good place to start maybe.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 115
And, should the scenario you describe arise, it will also be difficult for most congressional Republicans to effectively play their role as the opposition party in pushing back because they sat on their hands when Bush did similar things. This is why executive power is not a partisan issue, and this is also why I say it is likely that the project to expand presidential power will turn out to be the most successfully implemented policy of the Bush-Cheney administration.
(Another tidbit from the book that hasn’t come up here is that this was a consciously articulated agenda from their first day in office, long before 9/11. I quote — on the record with name attached, a rarity! — a former associate White House counsel who was in the first meeting of the White House legal team in January 2001, after Inauguration Day. Then-White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales conveyed to them instructions from Bush that they were to seek out opportunities to expand presidential power in order to leave the office stronger than it had been when they arrived. In conveying these instructions, he used the precise wording that Cheney would later use in January 2002, when he took public ownership of the policy amid the fight over whether his energy task force papers would have to be turned over to Congress.
Charlie Savage @ 111
Ah. Why am I not surprised? I think it’s a good thing you went that way. It seems to me that much of the reason so many reporters are ignorant is that they studied “journalism” and lack the broad knowledge needed to see the significance of isolated events, the way you have just done. I notice even your posts here are well-written and grammatical; we don’t always bother, striving for speed of posting instead. *g*
Always late to the party ;-)
This looks like a really great book Mr. Savage, thanks for writing it. Have it on order
I think you are echoing the words of great men who came before you … words like this
~ James Madison, Federalist # 47
Too bad we have such a compliant, inutile Congress (sigh)
American Democracy has clearly been hijacked by thugs, no other term suffices, and barring a miracle, there is no serious likelihood that we may get it back. The political class, of whichever party is satisfied(as wellas’safe)and the people, silly fools, had best just accept it. It will haunt our children, our grandchildren and their children, unless the capacity of our planet to sustain human life ceases. I don’t accept there is nothing we, the people may do, but we will get precious little help; that is for certain. The bottom line, which should be the new motto on our coinage: It’s up to Us.
I’d like to thank Firedoglake and Glenn for hosting this discussion, and I’d like to thank everyone who tuned in to read this and ask questions.
I hope that each of you will check out the book, and if you like it, please spread the word.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 131
It’s easy if you try.
If you’re still here, Charlie? What do you think about John Yoo?
Thankyou Mr Savage and Glenn!
Charlie Savage @ 139
Mahalo Nui Loa, for spending some time at the Lake…!!! *g*
Charlie Savage @ 120
That’s sadly what I thought you’d say. Which points to another sad fact — impeachment is sort of useless in the overall scheme of things. The only way to re-balance the constitutional forces at odds here is to steadily vote in a majority of people committed to doing just that, and then hope they don’t become corrupted by the power they’re asked to give away.
And prior to that it seems to me, we have to have an effective answer to a press that has become institutionalized to support said power structure.
Lots to do. I despair that it can actually be done.
Thank you, thank you!! I want that book! *g*.
Charlie,
Our thanks to you and Glenn. You are what is standing between many of us and lost hope that we can ever find our way back to the Constitution.
Keep doing what you are doing and if you can think of any way we can be of use, don’t hesitate to ask.
And you are welcome to come back here at any time and participate. It’s a friendly community.
Can the Bush administration use signing statements to pre-emptively attack Iran?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 122
No, she’s not setting a “precedent”. That word has legal ramifications. She screwed up by stating that ass-kissing but covering statement. It will be poison in the future…as it is now.
Eureka Springs @ 141
Indeed! Most informative and no more depressing than most serious insights these days. Thank you both for sharing such needful perpective with all of us.
Hi Charlie,
Given the compliance of the Democrats on
* whom to condemn and why and when
* whom to retroactively immunize and why and when
* whom to invade/attack and why and when
I get the sense that we effectively have one-party rule.
But how did they do that, i.e., get the Democrats to go along? There are theories:
* The Democrats believe in the Bush form of government.
* Their money backers believe in this form of government.
* They identify with the people inside the beltway — Glenn’s theory on DiFi.
* The NSA has dirt on all of them.
Do you have any idea what’s going on the the Dems?
Charlie Savage @ 138
This has been great! And I promise to finish reading the book, and then to push it on everyone I can. Thank you for coming.
GG and Mr. Savage, thank you both so much for the work you do and the time you spent with us today.
It was enlightening, and a pleasure.
Kathleen @ 146
See #38
Charlie and/or Glenn: Thanks to both of you.
John Dean has written about the Impeachment of lower level officials in the Bush administration. Douglas Feith, Ari Fleisher, John Bolton are just a few that congress could start with.
Why not impeach these individuals for their crimes so that they are unable to ever roll back into future administrations?
LS @ 152
Thanks late to the discussion
Bob in HI -
Hi, Bob – as to your question, when you get a chance, check out the thread around #75-#85(roughly). Some discussion there of delivering the book to Congresscritters.
Charlie and Glenn -
Do you think that future presidents will be amenable to ceding or delegating as much authority to future vice presidents as has been ceded or delegated to Dick Cheney?
Charlie Savage @ 138
I’ll buy a copy for my dad, Charlie. If he ever finishes his book, I’ll buy one for you!
:)
Kathleen @ 154
Great idea. I’d like to see the whole damn lot of them brought to justice. But given the current presidential contenders, there not a chance in hell that any of them will do time. That would be to “criminalize politics,” which is ever so partisan. ;-)
Hmm, wonder if our guest and guest host have departed?
The real bottom line question is why would Cheney personally be obsessed with a unitary executive system for all these years???
Jill @ 103
Like every other crime of this administration – NOTHING.
They have had a “free pass” since stealing the 2000 elections – as bad as the chimp is, there is plenty of culpability to go around.
LS @ 161
megalomania?
tejanarusa @ 160
I think they said, bye, bye a few comments back.
Charlie Savage @ 38
Should it not be clear to the nation what the dangers of this imperial presidency might be? I.e. it would be hard to find a more pernicious example of a loose cannon than Bush-Cheney.
Charlie Savage @ 138
Thanks so much for being here today, Charlie. It’s an amazing book and I hope everyone reads it cover to cover. A very important work.
Would passing legislation similar to what Senator Webb tried to get passed which would have required Bush to come back to congress before starting another war.
Would this could this trump the “war powers act”?
http://thehill.com/leading-the…..04-17.html
Oklahoma kiddo @ 109
Sadly, based on the fact that they have enabled the entire charade since 2000 – you are probably right.
Hillary will especially be a bad choice. If we have a bush/clinton/bush/clinton junta that means 40 percent of Americans will never have lived under a president other than a bush or clinton.
tejanarusa @ 160
I think they have
Charlie Savage @ 138
Well, don’t know about the rest of you, but I’m not feeling particularly jolly right now.
Hope does seem a scarce commodity these days.
Heck! Our ‘job’ is not impossible just a wee trifle bit vexing.
Mr. Savage really did answer the question concerning the opposition party’s apparent lack of interest in opposing any of this.
I don’t believe it is the people who are cynical. Tell me again how least worse is so much better, so that the next four years don’t appear so appalling. Quick! Help me out here!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 122
EXACTLY – she is part of the problem and so is Reid.
littlebear @ 162
I can understand the Republicans going along with it, but for the life of me I cannot understand why the Democrats knuckle under. If nothing else, pride should prevent it. As Glenn pointed out a week ago, DiFi has absolutely nothing to fear politically, personally, or economically in standing up for constitutional rights and honoring treaties and international law. Yet every time Bush has said jump, her feet were among the highest and the quickest.
LS @ 161
That is an excellent question. Please consider this conjecture: whether it is called a unilateral or unitary executive system, does its existence facilitate rule by proxy by someone who could not have won a presidential election?
I think the problem can only be fixed, as I said above, by very aggressive congress that is willing to remove people from office, put liars in jail for rest of congressional term. strip Supreme court review for areas where they go bonkers. Question is, what will it take to get that very aggressive congress? Seems like nothing short of a disaster on the scale of, I dunno, bombing Iran and having all hell break loose in S Iraq and maybe a stranded army, for instance. I mean a real in-your-face immediate disaster directly following from runaway executive power that can’t be explained away.
But that is dangerous, since something like that could shock the country into wanting a ’savior’ That is, the problem isn’t a 4-year dictator, it is that we need a ‘truly great and good and reluctantly ruthless’ dictator. A Giuliani presidency could happen that way, if we had a lot of bad luck.
I would hope something less expensive and risky would do the trick, like an effective progressive campaign to elect a real congress next year.
Do you think that bipartisan efforts to shine a little sunlight on the secrecy and unlawful actions of the administration and to encourage resistance and restore the checks and balances is becoming noticeably more effective? With the efforts of such high visibility people as Bob Barr, Bruce Fein and John Dean, and others who are becoming increasingly concerned about the possibility that our democracy is giving way to Tyranny, are more people waking up to the dangers of handing too much power to the President. At some point, you have to say, “you may be, Mr. President, the head of state. We understand that. You go overseas, you represent the United States, you get the 21-gun salute, but you’re not the head of government. You’re only the head of state.” (quote from Mickey Edwards, former Republican Congressman from OK from panel on FISA by Center for American Progress.)
Jane is upstairs.
Elliott @ 163
Genetics. He’s obviously a royalist by a quirk of genetic inheritance.
i’ve just been lurking, since i haven’t read the book yet… but what an interesting conversation! i come away with two conclusions:
1) must buy this book and read it carefully!
2) impeachment is the only thing i can see that might pull the ratchet back. it’s a little hard to use bushco as a precedent, if he was impeached for his bad acts… but this means that articles of impeachment would have to included all aspects of the imperial presidency that we want to repudiate.
Kathleen @ 167
It’s the sort of thing that the Supremes take into consideration when weighing presidential authority.
I just don’t understand it. The Constitution blatantly and unambiguously states things like Congress has the power to determine the rules of captures on land and sea (prisoners of war an how they are to be treated) yet the Bush Admin and its lawyers and judges read this clear, unambiguous text as meaning the President has this authority?! Or how it is that Congress and ONLY Congress has the power to declare war yet the Admin claims IT is virtually the sole arbiter of whether we go to war or not?
What planet is this? How can ANYONE read the unambiguous text of the Constitution and claim so much power for the President? How can Cheney seek to “restore” the majesty of the Presidency when the Presidency has NEVER EVER had, nor was it EVER intended to have, the powers he seeks to “restore”?
I have a headache.
New post… pull out your wallet. /s
I hope the day comes when true bipartisan efforts are possible. GOP needs to be purged of the Bush-Cheney-neocon-PNAC-corporate reactionary wing first. When there is a possiblity that a TR Roosevelt, a Smedley Butler, and Vandenberg or a Earl Warren could be prominenet in the party again, then a bipartisan effort might mean something. Until then it has to be total war scorched-earth policy against GOP, unfortunately. All we have now are very weak or untrustworthy tea like Hagel (who is being driven out) and Schwarzenegger.
wigwam @ 172
well, of course i can’t know, but at the moment i’m leaning towards the option that many of the dems agree with much of cheney’s ideas on the imperial presidency. they may not have had the to gumption to do it on their own, but they’re quite happy to have it done for them so the Rs get blamed and the Ds get the power.
but really, i have no clue…. would love to know though. might help us figure out how to act effectively.
Jane has a New thread ready!
wesgpc @ 174
If I had my way, they’d go back and impeach the remaining justices who participated in the December ‘00 coup.
Praedor Atrebates @ 180
James Madison himself said that precedent, social acceptance of innovation, could serve to change the constitution. That is why he changed his mind on the National Bank question. He thought it was unconstitutional, the country and congress and courts acted in ways that showed implicit as well as explicit acceptance of its constitutionality. A decade later he said, OK, its constitutional now. I think that kind of attitude is necessary for a living constitution that can change with society. As soon as you go that far, the lines of what is clearly stated and not in the constitution get very blurry.
Only all three branches aggressively exercising their powers can save us.
selise @ 178
Hello selise.
Well, shucks. I agree with you about impeachment and Gary Hart told us if we wanted to do we just should do it (didn’t say ‘how’) or move on.
Almost everybody I speak with wants impeachment, Cheney, first. But…
That is our hope, that the public is out far ahead of national press, congress and courts. It just takes a few unexpected bigshots losing their jobs in congress through electoral defeats to change total attitude. That is why I gave money to Lamont in primary and general.
Progressives and sensible factions generally need to put a lot of aggressive new faces in Congress in open seats next election. And a bigshot needs to be tossed out on his or her ear. That would change things pretty quick.
That is why Moveon.org, Dean’s 50 state strategy, local and state efforts are so important. Those things may save us.
David W. Bartoo @ 187 -
i don’t think i was around to read hart’s thread. should i go back and read it?
If the material in the Aznar transcripts is accurate, that needs BIG play. The population just knowing that Bush is, honestly and really on every level, common sense to legally, a war criminal would make a huge difference. We could have had Saddam sitting under effective house arrest in Saudi Arabia and a safe and effective transfer of power in Iraq to something better and avoided war. Thousands of lives, trillion dollars, *legitimate* national security interests in region preserved.
Ned to get that out.
selise @ 178
What I’m hoping for is some post-election prosecution of evil doers for their crimes. That probably wouldn’t happen under Clinton, Obama, Romney or Guliani but might under say Kucinich or Paul. Edwards is a lawyer so he might take law seriously. Hard to tell.
wesgpc @ 190
What Aznar piece, por favor?
selise @ 189
Highly recommended in terms of the attitude of the Democratic ‘leadership.’
selise, if you should read about Hart’s visit, I would be very interested in your reaction.
Thanks. David
Just read through all of the comments and answers. Damn scary! Was surprised David Addington was not mentioned and his role in this push for “expanding presidential powers”
I would like to know who else played a critical role in this project to expand the presidential powers that Charlie tells us was a “consciously articulated agenda from their first day in office”
If congress can not or does not want to stop them from pre-emptively invading Iran. I wonder if 20 million Americans out on the streets on October 27th could stop them?
http://www.unitedforpeace.org/
Kathleen @ 195
Gosh, I wish. Addington and Fielding need to be brought in front of Leahy and/or Waxman.
Eureka Springs @ 192
I meant the recently released transcripts of conversations between Bush and the president of Spain Aznar. Bush turned down even more offers from Saddam to leave Iraq than we knew of, Bush had decided to attack Iraq while saying to country he hadn’t made up his mind, admitted that his efforts at the UN were a sham, that his coalition of the willing was put together by ruthless threats to shaft various countries (that explains how the Baltics signed up I guess since Iraq is real unpopular there). When Aznar said that he was concerned about lack of planning for aftermath, Bush said don’t worry we don’t need it, everything will be cool after a few months.
Do a Yahoo news search Bush Aznar and you will get news stories. I have not found the complete transcripts. If anyone knows where they are please post.
I did found some right wing sites that said if you read the whole complete transcript you will realize that it is not what it seems. But convenient, none of those sites provided links.
Thanks wesgpc (formerly with voting links) I heard about it and do need to find it and read.
LS @ 196
One of the rallies should be in Mitch McConnell’s hometown of Kentucky, he is the one in Harry Reid’s way.
selise @ 178
I was just shocked when the Webb leglislation that would have forced the Bush administration to come back to congress before starting another illegal and immoral war did not pass. .
Is there absolutely no way to trump these signing statements or the War Powers Resolution that Savage referred to?
Senator Webbs statement on the floor in March 2007
http://webb.senate.gov/newsroom/record.cfm?id=27
0138
s.759 http://www.govtrack.us/congres…..l=s110-759
LS @ 196
So who were the “signing statements” experts?
wigwam @ 191
i’d love to see the question asked in the debates (along with charlie’s questions in his comment at 106.
If Charlie or Glenn come back. I would like to ask them if it is these “signing statements” that Bush and Cheney are using to block the access to the intercepts having to do with John Boltons “alleged” access to conversations of Colin Powell with Iran, Syria and other nations?
I will never forget the faces of Biden, Chaffee, Kennedy, Kerry, Dodd when they were demanding access to these intercepts during the John Bolton nomination hearing. They were visibly pissed!
David W. Bartoo @ 194
ok, now you’ve got me curious… i’d like to read the thread… probably won’t be able to do it tonight (still have to put together the hearings list for tomorrow morning)… so if i forget, i’d appreciate a reminder. thanks!
Kathleen @ 200
i did not think it was ever voted on… isn’t it stuck in the foreign relations committee? or do i have that wrong?
of course, the house did vote on a similar bill, back in may i believe. it was a defazio amendment to a defense appropriations bill. something like 100 dems in the house voted against it…. if failed pretty badly.
Kathleen @ 201
The truth is…in this world…there are no “experts”. It does not exist. People give “experts” power…but it is just an illusion of power…an illusion of “experts”, and the sad thing is that, because people put credence into the idea of “expert”….other people die.
LS @ 206
i prefer the term “speci*list” instead of “expert”.
selise — The Kwaj map I saw was a hard copy. I can’t find it online. It will take awhile to report more.
selise @ 205
so selise is this where it is stuck? Is it stuck in this committee?
http://www.govtrack.us/congres…..pd?id=SSFR
LS @ 206
O.k. I was trying to be polite by calling them “experts”. Let me try again… who were the warmongering authoritarian psychopaths pushing for and “allegedly” knew the most about “signing statements”
Kathleen @ 195
If you read Charlie’s book you will find Addington’s name coming up everywhere. Roberts appears a lot earlier than you would expect. Yoo’s fingerprints are on just about everything that has dubious ties to legality. But Darth is behind it all and they are doing his bidding. No surprises there.
Kathleen @ 200
After reading Charlie’s depressing tale of how we got here, as he said above, Chimpy believes that all it takes is his say so to start another war. Darth has coddled his brain into megalomania. If he does it, it is legal. That seems to have been Darth’s goal all along. Why? hard to tell.
Kathleen @ 210
No argument there. There are no experts. Only people who claim power, and those who believe them give them that power for their own personal, egotistical reasons. Their names, in this particular case, are of record. It is a general fact of life, and it is not a good fact of life.
So now that the Kyl/Lieberman and HR 1400 are in place. Kyl Lieberman admendment
http://wwwwakeupamericans-spree.blogspot.com/200
7/09/
Here is the section that JUMPED out at me last week.
“(5) that the United States should designate the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps as a foreign terrorist organization under section 219 of the Immigration and Nationality Act and place the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps on the list of Specially Designated Global Terrorists, as established under the International Emergency Economic Powers Act and initiated under Executive Order 13224; and
kyl-lieberman-amendment-on-iran-passes.html
HR1400
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/…..10eUBCjG::
The Bush administration can attack the Iranian Revolutionary guard with the House and Senate’s approval.
Seymour Hersh’s latest.
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/10/08/07
1008fa_fact_hersh
Shifting Targets
The Administration’s plan for Iran.
by Seymour M. Hersh October 8, 2007
In a series of public statements in recent months, President Bush and members of his Administration have redefined the war in Iraq, to an increasing degree, as a strategic battle between the United States and Iran. “Shia extremists, backed by Iran, are training Iraqis to carry out attacks on our forces and the Iraqi people,” Bush told the national convention of the American Legion in August. “The attacks on our bases and our troops by Iranian-supplied munitions have increased. . . . The Iranian regime must halt these actions. And, until it does, I will take actions necessary to protect our troops.” He then concluded, to applause, “I have authorized our military commanders in Iraq to confront Tehran’s murderous activities.”
IF YOU HAVE NOT READ SEYMOURS LATEST A MUST READ
neokneme @ 208
thank you so much for checking on that for me!!! i’m probably especially curiuos because i had hodgkin’s disease (a type of lymphoma) in ‘90.
RevDeb @ 211
Can’t wait to read…scary stuff. Sounds as if our country is in lock down. Still pushing for millions out on the streets on Oct 27th. Some say that with the Kyl/Lieberman admendment and HR 1400 in place they could strike Iran at any time.
Acknowledged.
Kathleen @ 209
i believe so.
Seymours Latest
http://www.newyorker.com/repor…..fact_hersh
RevDeb @ 212
well, since it looks like only the military folks could stop it – by refusing to follow an order they thought was illegal… it would be nice to give them some reason to be able to say they think it’s an illegal order – which they might be able to do if congress had passed something like the defazio amendment (or possibly the webb bill).
instead congress has, apparently, closed off that option.
stupid congress.
Kathleen @ 215
i don’t think these bills (and h.con.res.21 and s.amdt.2073) make it possible for bush/cheney to order an attack on iran, their probably going to do whatever the hell they want anyway.
what the bills do, imo, is to provide bushco with political cover and make it very difficult/impossible for the military folks to say “no”.
selise @ 221
I think you are correct, the military are on their own and so are the people. Those who enabled this situation to develop are as culpable as the author(s)of the overall assault on reason and democracy as well as the Constitution itself and therefore equally criminal, in intent, in execution, and in fact.
Praedor Atrebates @ 180
A good question. But it’s not uncommon for a presidency to claim they have these powers. What is uncommon is for Congress to not only keel over on specific issues, but actually legislate general language delegating their article 1 powers to the president. As they have done with the military commissions and FISA. By specifically stating that the president shall have the opportunity to determine what a term in the law means.
You talk a lot about restoring the branches and all – but this particular point describes how the administration’s claims of executive power is put down in law, technically in line with what the constitution suggests. And that’s a much bigger problem than, for instance, Charlie Savage tends to suggest when highlighting the precedent set by merely allowing the president to get away with their lawbreaking. (Which of course is atrocious by itself).
Kitt @ 147
Why is this somehow still taken as truth? What she said at the time, before the election, was that she would not set impeachment as an election- promise. That with the agenda currently in place, impeachment was off the table. She never said impeachment should never happen, or that there were no possibility of it happening while she was Speaker.
And after that – did democrats and their supporters say: “no, impeachment should definitively be on the table – and here’s why..”? Or did they say: “outrageous, is Pelosi now backing the president’s lawbreaking practices?”. Or: “does this mean Pelosi will not accept these carefully drafted articles of impeachment to even be debated in the House”?
Of course not. The huge majority said they did not want to put the country through another traumatising event for no reason other than for a political retribution. Really, they said, what is the actual benefit of even discussing impeachment now – after all, we have so many other important things to do (like appropriate money for our military contracts in our home state, for which we harvest great and general support).
So don’t come suggesting now that somehow Pelosi cheated you out of an impeachment. Grow yourselves some spine instead, and confront Congress. On any of the million specific and extremely worrying issues of the day. I mean – it’s the only way.
Thanks, Charlie Savage, for all the great work.
as Glenn Greenwald points out, by enacting changes to the FISA law that the (R) controlled congress would not pass.
I’m with the idea of GENERAL STRIKE if this shit continues, if Cheney gets close to attacking Iran (with Isreali or US jets) It’s a card the top Dems should hold over Bush’s head. Obviously voting on the Senate or House floor or hoping for luck in the judicial system ain’t working.
General Strike would not be good fer the ‘mericun economi.
Great work, Mr. Savage.
David W. Bartoo @ 222
Cover for sure…the question is why Congress went along with it. Especially Hillary Clinton
Congratulations to a true American patriot for his well-deserved Pulitzer Prize!
Someday, when Charlie Savage wins a second Pulitzer, he’ll be equal to Bill O’Reilly and *his* two Pulitzers! (Er, I mean “Polk Awards”, which are just as prestigious! Really!)
Kathleen @ 227
HRC went along because she and other Democratic ‘leaders’ WANT TO HAVE POWER. They want an all-powerful Presidency. Our mistake was in thinking that they felt the same way that we did. Most of us, at least the ‘us’ here on FDL and other ‘Progressive’ Blogs were absolutely appalled at the notion of an IMPERIAL PRESIDENCY. However, considering the behavior of the Democrats and their total unwillingness to move IN ANY FASHION whatsoever, to curtail or even to challenge the blatant power grabs of this administration, we must conclude, frightening and depressing as the idea may be, that those in leadership positions simply did not and do not agree with us. Their concerns, apparently are different. We may only speculate, really, as to what those ‘concerns’ might be. It is clear, however, that the Democrats fully intend, barring evidence to the contrary, to embrace and possibly extend the paradigm of the unitary executive. We have no compelling reason, at this time, to assume otherwise.
Were we essentially not powerless, we might insist that EACH and EVERY candidate for the office of the Presidency be REQUIRED to answer, explicitly and at length, the question:
Do you intend to use the powers with which the Presidency now appears invested? If the answer is ‘NO,’ then the follow up question is; ‘will you seek to legally diminish such powers and how will you do so?’ A line of questions would follow. Since I doubt that scenario is the likely one, we need not bore ourselves with considering those follow-up questions. Should the answer be ‘Yes,’ then the only real question is; ‘How bad will it get?’ Such a question, for all intents and purposes is merely rhetorical and of use only in measuring our personal despair and the depth of whatever response we feel, in all conscience, we might make.
Since we shall NOT be allowed to ask ‘the’ question, it is already, as far as I am concerned, a matter of conscience. The only real question facing us as citizens and as human beings is this: ‘What do WE intend to do about the IMPERIAL PRESIDENCY?’
I guess we will have to wait and see. What do you think?