In 1817 David Ricardo formalized the Law of Comparative Advantage. Since then it has stood the test of time as one of the very few laws that an Economist can point to and say, “this is indisputably true.” It’s because of this law that you can only rarely find an Economist who doesn’t believe in unrestricted free trade. But Ricardo added an important caveat when he discussed free trade and comparative advantage and it’s one that most modern economists seem to have forgotten…
Let’s quote straight from Ricardo:
In one and the same country, profits are, generally speaking, always on the same level; or differ only as the employment of capital may be more or less secure and agreeable. It is not so between different countries. If the profits of capital employed in Yorkshire, should exceed those of capital employed in London, capital would speedily move from London to Yorkshire, and an equality of profits would be effected; but if in consequence of the diminished rate of production in the lands of England, from the increase of capital and population, wages should rise, and profits fall, it would not follow that capital and population would necessarily move from England to Holland, or Spain, or Russia, where profits might be higher.
This is the Achilles heal of comparative advantage – the flaw in the foundation of free trade that causes outsourcing woes. Those who say that the law of comparative advantage proves that free trade is good are absolutely right, but they’ve forgotten his caveat.
Because in Ricardo’s world it was true that capital was not particularly mobile. It is not true in our world and it wasn’t true in the Victorian world.
In a world where I can move my capital freely between locales, where I can also move my profits freely, and where I don’t have to live where my capital is working, there is no reason to invest in any productive activity in my home country – I can make more money elsewhere.
The higher surplus locale is going to get as much free capital as it can soak up and is available.
The logic behind this is simple.
Let’s say I have 1 million dollars to invest and I can invest it in two different locales. In one place I’ll get 5% return, in another 10% return. In both locales I can take my profit and do what I want with it, and I can live in either locale and in both places my money is secure from being seized by the government or destroyed by violence. Obviously I’m going to put my money into the place with the higher returns.
And when I get those profits, I’m going to sink any reinvestment into the place with the higher returns again. It’s a virtuous circle – if you’re the place with the higher returns and it ends when returns even out or there is no more excess capacity.
If the higher return country has no more investment opportunities that pay higher than the low return country, it makes no sense to invest in it. What matters here is the marginal rate of return – that is the return on the next dollar of my investment. In principle there ought to be diminishing returns – people snap up the good opportunities and over time the opportunities get worse and worse until returns equalize (this happens faster when currency values aren’t decided primarily by government intervention but it doesn’t always happen – even in the long term – when we’re all dead.
Profit is just how much surplus you’re you have. Let’s say my workers are capable of producing $5 of goods for every hour they work and my costs are $3/hour for everything (property, taxes, capital costs and pay) – I’m making $2 an hour for every worker I have working for me.
If that’s country A and in country B the average worker produces $10 an hour, but my costs are $9 – my surplus is $1 – half of country A, even though my workers are more productive.
And that’s why US workers are more productive and people are shipping jobs to China and India. Costs in the US are higher for property, wages and taxation.
To stop the capital (and jobs) moving from Country B to Country A, you have to increase surplus. There are two ways to do that – you can reduce costs (most easily by cutting taxes or wages) or you can increase productivity. If the average worker produces one more dollar of goods while costs stays the same – and Country A’s worker’s productivity doesn’t increase, then you’re even.
Or Country A could increase wages, taxation or property costs and become less competitive.
In a world without mass capital flows there was another way. You could have lower capital costs. But having the Fed have lower capital costs than another country means little – borrow in the US, invest it where the ROI is higher.
More than that – money you can’t use is, well, useless. Let’s say you’re investing in a factory in China but you want to live in Europe or the US – and Europe and the US won’t let you use the money you have in China in their countries (or will only let a fraction back in) you’re not likely to invest in China, are you? In addition, money that can’t move is captive to political unrest and other such events – and that gives mature stable countries a big leg up. If moving money is hard or slow then you’d better be sure that where you have it is stable because if something goes wrong – kiss it goodbye.
A key problem right now is demand. Capital flows to low production cost, high surplus domiciles. But there’s only so much demand for goods and only a limited amount of growth in demand for goods. So you’ve got your profits and you have to figure out what to do with them. You can’t plow all of it back into productive investment, because you’d wind up with more productive capacity than there is ability to buy the goods. As a result the excess money has to go into nonproductive uses.
The money that does go into productive uses will go to the domiciles that produce the greatest surplus (profit). Many people have pointed out that the US hasn’t lost jobs to outsourcing – that’s only true in a technical sense. What has happened is that the new jobs have been mostly created overseas (in cases where they can be done overseas). Old jobs haven’t (mostly) been moved because of sunk capital costs. Once you’ve paid 10 million dollars to create a factory, spending another 10 million dollars to relocate the factory usually doesn’t make sense. But if you have to build a new factory anyway (either because you need more capacity or because the old factory would have to be replaced for some reason) then it makes sense to build it in the domicile with the higher surplus production. That’s exactly what we’ve seen over the last few years: China and India getting the new jobs in non protected sectors. It’s not rocket science, it’s just ROI (Return on Investment).
But, since you can’t put all the money back into production you’ve got to stick some of the money elsewhere. And what we have going is a nice reinforcing trend. Oldman had called it strip mining the US economy. The money is used to buy your customers’ assets or leant to your customers. In exchange they put up as collateral either the full faith of their government (we’ll see how good that is in a few years) or their assets – which in the current case means mortgage backed securities, bonds, and common shares in companies (which represent ownership of assets.) They then use that money to buy your goods and the cycle continues.
This vicious cycle (or virtuous if you’re the one getting rich and you get out in time) results in excess productive capacity, a slow decline in employment in the low surplus domicile and an increase in debt in the low surplus domicile. It also pushes costs in the low surplus domicile lower (meaning wages and taxation, primarily.)
In the meantime, if the developed world (and specifically the US) were to stop borrowing to buy – the entire engine would collapse. This is not a sustainable development – if the US was to buy only what it could afford based on its own exports then there would be an economic shockwave not just in the US but in China, India and other high surplus, low cost domiciles. And right now the dynamic is being funded by taking money out of the US and other high cost domiciles – which must ultimately end in a reduction of demand. If the low cost domiciles which have been getting the capital investment are not capable of soaking up the excess capacity when the US’s consumption comes in line with what the US can afford, then you will have a worldwide recession at the least – likely a depression.
Economics views systems as moving towards equilibrium. But it’s more useful to view systems as subject to multiple different tendencies. At any given time different tendencies may be stronger than other tendencies. What should be happening is that US costs should drop and developing country costs should rise. It is happening. It’s not happening very fast, and where they meet is going to be somewhere a lot south of the current US standard of living. In the meantime the dynamic is the US shipping its capital and its growth in productive capacity to lower cost, higher surplus domiciles. That will continue until the conditions for it end – and not before. The conditions which can end it are increased shipping costs (favouring more localized production), surplus production evening out, a political decision to discourage either trade or capital flows or an unwillingness or inability of either the US to borrow or its creditors to lend (the end of the housing bubble strikes directly at this). Until then capital will go to the higher returns and since the highest returns on production are mostly not in the US, capital that creates production jobs will flow disproportionately away from the US while asset bubbles form in the United States in order to pay for imports. (And the assets they have bought or allowed the US to borrow against are likely to crash in the final days of this system. A suckers game all around, but the only thing worse than playing is trying to stop playing.)
Related posts:
- The Short Unhappy Life of a Keynesian Moment
- Caveat Lector:
In Quasi-Sorta-Defense of the Washington Post’s Torture PieceActually, Just, No - Superfusion: How China and America Became One Economy
- No Public Option Means Hundreds of Billions in New Assets for Giant Health Companies
- Dear Trade Associations, Why do You Despise the Workers?





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zed
quick chance for baseball talk. The mets won today, and the phillies are losing in the bottom of the 9th. If they do lose, it will mean a tie going into the last day of the season. No more baseball talk for me, today.
glorp
USF beat West Virginia. Fla. v Auburn starts in an hour, though based on the amount of neighborhood whooping, the pre-game drinking started quite some time ago.
BigMitch @ 2
What improbable events would have to happen for the Cubs to get into the World Series?
Hi Ian!
I feel lonely. Sniff.
it would not follow that capital and population would necessarily move from England to Holland, or Spain, or Russia, where profits might be higher
not if you had to use a rickety 1817 boat, no. but now, not so true. things are more fluid now.
Check this out.
http://www.capitalism.net/Capi…..ternet.pdf
ia_=typo-Achilles heal —-’heel’
firepups-still-do’_t-ha_e-a-key_oar-_ut-will-soo_-
a_-waiti_g-_u_-it’s-free
_ought-o_e-today-_ut-_est-frie_d-is-goi_g-to-_ri_g-_e-o_e-_e_t-week_d
Great post, Ian.
BHWMSI ?
( But How Would Mankiw Spin It ? )
The Atlantic Monthly has an article about this.
Serious post, really great.
Oh, and Friedman was an idiot.
Milton, I mean,
But, then, so is Tom.
OMG!!! Somebody have mercy on dmac. If I had an extra keyboard I’d send it to you babe. It’s just not right.
Ian, have you read The Origin of Capitalism?
From the afore-linked Atlantic Monthley article:
“Afore-linked” — I like it.
dmac @ 10
you are getting easier to read anyway, you know.
dmac @ 10
Are you Mac or PC dmac?
cleter @ 5
They would have to win eight games against teams that are better than they are.
SteveAudio @ 13
Good thing you put a caveat in there. I’m sure there must be some Friedman’s around the country who aren’t id10ts. :})
“Economics views systems as moving towards equilibrium. But it’s more useful to view systems as subject to multiple different tendencies.”
This assumes a linear, manageable, system. The economy is a non-linear system and non-linear systems are better described in chaos theory. There are sharp changes (also know as crashes), where the “future equilibrium” is unknown and unpredictable.
Chaos, where the “system” changes quickly to a different “strange attractor or equilibrium” is un-manageable. That’s also the difference between evolution viewed as continual, gradual change, or punctuated equilibrium, stable periods followed (or preceded) by sudden change.
I suspect all systems are non-linear. A linear system is just our poor perception of all the variables of a non-linear system.
cleter @ 5
I said no more baseball talk for me, but since you asked: The Cubs were the winners in the National League central division. There will be two series to determine who will go to the World Series, the first is, I believe, a five game series, and the second is a 7 game series. Whoever wins two series represents their league in the World Series.
dakine01 @ 20
Indeed. Although as a follow up to a post about economics, most people would have understood the inferred ‘Milton’.
burnspbesq @ 19
So, greater than, less than, or equal to the chances of an Edwards nomination?
Ian, how close are we to a real depression (global)
and what’s the best hedge (oh I hate using that word right now, but…) ?
cleter @ 24
Tough call. I give each about a 20% chance. But I am probably overly optimistic about Edwards. And about the Cubbies, come to think about it.
cleter @ 24
Approximately equal.
Milwaukee just beat San Diego. Padres fail to clinch the wild card. A four-way tie for the wild card is a realistic possibility.
Adam Smith thought that people had a natural inclination to invest in their own countries, either from love of their fellow man or desire to protect their assets.
It’s so frustrating knowing the BushCo economy is based on a house-of-cards housing market versus the real developments in science and technology (especially energy research and thoughtful healthcare) we could have made under, oh say, President Gore.
cleter @ 15
I have not.
masaccio @ 28
I live in a region with great soil for farming. And while lots of the land is being housed-over and shopping-marted, there is still significant acreage devoted to farming, diverse farming — including animal husbandry. It makes me very comfortable knowing that the food we need here can/is be grown here.
I think we will see a slow erosion of the middle class. In my business (we are a bankruptcy Chapter 7 Trustee firm), we have a marker for recessions: increased incidence of blatant fraud. Here in my area, we have had several recent cases, involving over $100 million in total. This follows a long period of time in which we were seeing only the occasional fraud, which was tough on us, because we make a bunch of money dealing with frauds. I almost feel like I’m predicting recessions like the people who predict winters based on the number of stripes on furry caterpillars.
Anyway, when it comes, people won’t be able to salvage much in bankruptcy, if they are even eligible for Chapter 7. The amendments were just horrible, and were designed to damage the innocent in the inevitable recession. But the stupid craven democrats (including HRC and the Senator from Wall Street, Chuck Schumer) voted for it, so we won’t even be able to campaign on it as a national issue.
BigMitch @ 22
Mitch, take your baseball talk somewhere else. You know this bothers people, but you do it anyway, just to make waves. It is not funny to me, it is disruptive.
Wow, Ian, meaty post! My eyes only glazed over twice… Aloha, Ya’ll!!! *g*
cleter @ 5
Just win baby. Go Illini!
masaccio @ 32
Cleaning up that mess should be a high priority in 2009. If it’s not, it becomes an issue in the battle for the soul of the Democratic party in 2010.
SeamusD @ 33
So what, don’t read them. I’ll be told what to do by the owners of the blog and no one else. (With aplogies to Ian, your posts are always great.)
Burns, if you’re still here, you missed a great Dems meeting the other night. Do you live up near the Monrovia area?
raven @ 37
I thought it was disrespecting Ian, to start off topic with the second post. If that’s how you treat people, it is not for me.
Yikes!
Sometimes it doesn’t pay to have a few before diving into the lake.
I am sure there are some excellent points in this post, I am just wayyy to dense right now.
Just so’s you know, I am celebrating my Dad’s 70 th Birthday and swiped some computer time while waiting to go to dinner.
Party on Garth!
ki__o-at-14-
i-ha_e-o_e-_o_i_g!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
this-weeke_d!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
freeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!
two-of-the_!!!!!!!!!!!!
y-_est-frie_d-is-_ri_gi_g-the_-to__e
i-a_-ha_i_g-k_ee-surgery-a_d-she-is-_o_i_g-to-take-_are-of-_e-a_d-is-_ri_gi_g-_e-two-key_oards!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
so-pity-_e-_ot–i-a_-ok!!!!!!!
here-we-go-llop-di-looooooooooo-here-we-go-loop-do-liiiiiiiiiieeeee
demi @ 38
Hi, Demi!
I live in Orange, but I make the run up to Monrovia fairly often — the best pen store on the West Coast is up there.
I got an email from MoveOn the other day, asking if I would be willing to help organize some sort of action in Orange the day after the Chimperor vetoes the SCHIP re-authorization bill. I was thinking maybe picketing Royce’s district office, which I believe is in Fullerton.
burnspbesq @ 36
Mandatory Credit Counseling Classes being one of the requisite hoops necessary prior to filing…??? Hmmm… If one is pleading poverty, how can they be expected to pay for those services…??? MBNA, etal… certainly received their bang for the buck(Lobbyists!)…!!! 8-(
Bustednuckles @ 40
Happy Birthday Daddynuckles!
{{{{{{{{{dmac}}}}}}}}}}
SeamusD @ 39
Here’s an idea. Why not ask Ian if he cares?
oh lord ian, you’re asking me to do a lot of thinking this late on a saturday. ;-)
nice post. i have nothing cogent to add, except it’s clear someone should give you a job over at the WSJ. you actually make sense, and the garbage i was reading there today was just incoherent, rhetorical bunk.
LMAO, Thanks Elliot, I am going to tell him exactly that.
Bustednuckles says:
Party on Garth!
party-o_way_e!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
burnspbesq @ 46
I thought it was disrespecting Ian, to start off topic with the second post. If that’s how you treat people, it is not for me.
OK, enough thread jacking.
Thank you Ian, I will try and translate this to mechanic speak later, it is important and I would like to absorb it.
kinmo @ 14
I have an extra one. I’ll be happy to send it for postage, but I’m in Hawaii.
Bob in HI
bobschacht @ 52
jeez, that almost sounds like a complaint! “I’m in Hawaii”
Synoia @ 21
There seems to be an inherent contradiction in the notion that economic systems always move toward equilibrium. As in, if they are in equilibrium, they should not fall out of equilibrium, except if they are externally stressed. The truth is though there is no point of equilibrium. The history of capitalism is a cycle of boom and bust. Even with government regulation, booms and bust still occur (dotcom, subprime lending). They just don’t usually take the whole economy with them (recession vs depression). The voodoo economics of the Bush years along with their penchant for deregulation may change that.
Damn Hugh, thanks for all you do for people like me. You are one intelligent human being.
Ian, I look forward to your discussions on these topics. You translate econcomics-speak well!
No wonder they call economics the dismal science.
masaccio @ 32
As a matter of fact, i saw a furry caterpillar with small black front and back and big % of cinnamon middle – harsh winter? Bummed thinking about heating bills.
ra_e_-
e_e_-_ore-tha_-that-you-k_ow_what-i-fi_d-_ore-disrupti_e-the_twit-_hi_k-who-a_ts-all-_o__er_ed-a_d-is-realy-just-tweaki_-so_e-juggerhead-dudes
that’s-what-gets-_e-e_e_-_ore-tha_-kathlee_-a_d-”_ig-_it_h”-a_d-the-a@pa@_-shit
tittilati_g-titty-talk-disguised-as-_o__e_tary
geeeeeeeeeeesh-you-guys-are-stupid
oh-_y-gosh-that-part-of-_y-key_oard-worked!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Elliott @ 53
I ain’t complaining!!! *g*
stratocruiser @ 57
Father Guido Sarducci:
Economics
Buy low, sell high.
however, I wholeheartedly disagree with the caveat from ricardo inspite of the fact that economists agree with it’
that’s not the only flaw, nor the greatest
the greatest flaw is that the caveat only takes into consideration the inherant “good” of prifit for it’s own sake
we know as a fact that “inherent good of profit” is inherantly wrong
profit must include the real cost of product, this is in every case never considered by those profiteers
the real cost of product relies on the health of the work force, it relies on the health of progress, the health of the infrastructure, the health of the commons, the health of the natural resources that are expended for this “said” profit”…when those costs are considered the profit shrinks exponetially if they were paid, however profiteers will do their best to get others to pay for the expense they themselves incur
those costs are never considered by the profiteer even though the profiteer uses those assets…they will at all times try to ignore those costs and base their “profit” in a cost that is not even closely related to the actual cost of that product
Ian, what if Americans just decided to stop buying products from companies that did this sort of business? I shop Costco, and most of us buy products made elsewhere, but I could change my habits. At Nordstrom today, it seemed to be products from El Salvador. I didn’t end up buying anything, and the “Look for The Union Label” song kept popping up in my head.
Beautiful description.
A synapse gave up its life to remind me that the Law of Comparative Advantage that I studied in Macro was that countries should specialize in the production of whatever they were best in, and really had little to do with capial flows.
Am I wrong or is this all a corollary?
dmac @ 41
What kind of knee surgery, dmac?
stratocruiser @ 57
They cal economics the dismal science because of the early contribution of Malthus, who postulated that population grows geometrically, but production grows arithmetically. Therefore, the future is/was quite dismal.
BigMitch @ 2
Yes. The Phillies lost, so both the Mets and Phillies are tied heading into tomorrow’s action.
dmac @ 59
hmmmmm………..dmac, I do b’lieve yer on to something here!
You’re welcome, Busted, and congrats, dmac, on the keyboards.
Trade agreements were supposed to take into account not just costs of labor and production but labor rights and environmental impacts. I don’t expect it to happen but it would be nice to see medical, environmental, and human rights costs added in to the calculus of outsourcing. One place where I think real changes could happen is in taxing policy. Subsidies for companies to outsource should be eliminated. It would also be good to see an outsourcing tax to go back to communities from companies who have benefited often for decades from the workers and the services of those communities. Changes like these might help rationalize outsourcing. As it is, it is a free for all where short term profits dominate everything.
perris @ 62
Particularily, when the Profiteer doesn’t do the ‘good’ thing of reinvesting in the ‘good’ of the people, like pay taxes for the basic education, infrastructure, and, other services necessary, for a safe society…!!!
i don’t think ian will mind me saying that to my admittedly untrained mind, a great deal of economic “theory” seems like complete bunk. people are not “rational actors,” and i’ve always found it absurd that much of econ treats them as such. people spend money in stupid, self destructive ways all the time, for reasons they barely even understand or can articulate. second to love, i can’t think of another thing that can make a person choose stupid things, either having too much or too little money. hell, i’d argue that at this point it’s beyond obvious that our economic system is designed for the express purpose of making the rich richer and the poor poorer. perhaps it wasn’t this way back in the pre-bush days, but it seems very true today.
stirling newberry once wrote a post titled “no rich people were harmed in the making of this recession” and it summed up my feelings very well. the fact that rich people can bankrupt a nation and leave future generations and millions of people pay for it is insane. yet somehow this “has” to be allowed because that’s the “way markets work” or some shit.
blech. econ makes my ears bleed, and i’m so glad we have sensible and logical econ writers in the blogosphere.
Love the post. I understand only part of it. Ricardo was someone who got short shrift where I went to college years ago, so I am glaad to hear more about him.
As I read your post, I started thinking about smaller European economies who are not major players at the extreme of capital exchange. I am not sure how I see their investments and trade work. I mean that I understand why an investor might seek the best ROI, and I can see how the large shifts of capital and production are related in your essay. But you end up saying it results in a mess. Has it resulted in a mess in Europe for say Austria or Norway or Switzerland? What is different about their choices and circumstances as related your examples of the US-India-China?
Therefore, the future is/was quite dismal.
What’s the spread on that?
let’s not forget who got the free trade, labor arbitrage game going, Bill Clinton!
here’s Alexander Cockburn today at Counterpunch;
oh dear oh dear, so hard to maintain the illusions needed to reflexively support the least worst these days.
Ian:
Your posts though sobering are clearly among the best discussions of economics around.
However, if we cannot move beyond exploitation, for that is essentially what each facet of our current system seeks to accomplish, then we have simply gamed ourselves out of existence.
If economists are unable or unwilling to explicitly state that economics is a ‘game’ which can be altered then the ‘unseen hand’ paradigm wins, and life continues as a crap shoot.
If our species can do no better than staying in a losing game, because it is the only one we can think of, then dismally, dismally off we go.
Give me a little hope that this game can be changed before all is lost.
E. F. Schumacher was and Hazel Henderson is
‘game’ at least to try. I would deeply appreciate your best speculations about what might be. What ‘is’ has less than little to recommend it. Are you ‘game’?
Bustednuckles @ 64
In the modern age of science maybe tittilating quantum mechanical titty talk for those of us breastfully challenged, or if you are an older guy just get a manssiere.
As I have seen recently, there has been rumours of countries wanting to move their benchmarks away from the dollar and move to the Euro.
Short term this is going to hurt us. Long term could prove to be a paradigm shift for the world economy that could well be a severe blow to this country.
With a massive recession threatening,this could have repercussions to consumers. Factor in the Canadian dollar being of equal value to ours for the first time in decades, things could get pretty rough for us ‘little people’ very shortly.
Then again, I am just a mechanic. YMMV.
Move the money move the corporation where there are less restrictions, less overhead, less, less, less. Means More more more for those on the top. Been going on for at least the last 30 years in the states.
Best Book ever on this topic…”When Corporations rule the world” By David Korten
http://www.pcdf.org/corprule/corporat.htm
CTuttle @ 71
exactly my point
most of these profiteers relie on the education of their workforce, they certainly rely on the health of their workforce
they rely on the roads, the water works, they rely on the parks that keep their workforce sane
those are costs that must be considered for their to be “actual” profit as opposed to “superficial profit”
most corporations rely on “superficial profit” for their books
in other words, they are stealing not profiting
Seems to me it’s “too soon to tell” about lots of this stuff.
Perhaps the the only solution is tariffs (taxes) on out of nation investments, or more commonly referred to as investment protectionism. The situation (solution) appears rather volatile in terms of ripple effects. Of course there is always redistribution of wealth (tax the top severely).
chicago dyke @ 72
I personally think the true achilles heel for all economic theory, is the lack or omission of quantifiable units for pure, unadulterated, Greed…!!! 8-(
sporkovat @ 75
Clinton: The poor got richer, and the rich got a lot richer. Bush: The rich got richer and the poor got fucked.
Against that generalization is the case of the poor who were kicked off of welfare, but I am not sure of the numbers of people who are no longer eligible for welfare because of topping out of the 5 year life-time allowance. Can someone tell me?
Maddy @ 77
Carpenter’s Dream…?!!! ;-)
Perhaps we need a “New Deal” president and Congress.
Hugh @55
I never thought much of the equilibrium theory either, though for mathematical reasons. When I learned econ, I was pretty much convinced that the math was too simple for the complexity of the subject, and that the matrix theories we were using in econ were too static. We thought that if someone could use the math to predict something, then other people could use the prediction to figure out how to get a better outcome, so that some kind of recursive approach might make sense, that is, feeding the results back into the matrices to see if that would converge to something. That was so long ago that doing those calculations seemed impossible to us, obviously before the PC. I learned Fortran that summer, a big event, but undergrads couldn’t get serious time on the Univac 1107.
Loo Hoo. @ 63
Unlikely to happen, unless government makes a point of it. It’s very hard to get foreign goods into Japan, once you do it’s hard to get into the distribution system, once they’re on the shelf Japanese tend to think of them as crap and won’t buy them. But the US and Americans don’t think that way.
raven @ 81
So, “in the long run” it’s too soon to tell if we’re dead.
msmolly says: at66-
What kind of knee surgery, dmac?
this-is-what-i-posted-to-a_-e_ail-to-su”s”a__e———–
hey-
the-surgery-is-to-re_o_e-(take-out)-a-_o_e-_hip-fro_-a-_ar-(auto)-a__ide_t-
the-_hip-was-_issed-i_-a-knee-surgery-lo_g-ago
the-surgeo_-_ould_’t-fi_d-it-the_-a_d-it-has-gi_e_-_e-pro_le_s-si__e
a_d-_ow-surgeo_-wa_ts-to-_lea_-out-_y-k_ee—he-said-that-i-a_-payi_g-for
_the-operati_g-roo_-a_d-hi_-so-_ight-as-well-let-hi_-_lea_-_y-k_ee-out-while-he-is-i_-there—-arthros_opy
is-ok
had-_y-k_ee-re_uilt-so-ha_e-_ee_-there-_efore-this-is-_uthi_-_o_pared-to-that
_ut-i-was-a-lot-you_ger-the_
Oklahoma kiddo @ 86
Damn, OKK! Short’n Succinct!!! 8-)
Oklahoma kiddo @ 82
tarrifs are inherintly good
there must be a purpose to the tariff, the tariff must be based on comparitive costs of product so the importer doesn’t steal from their workforce or their infrastructure
when a country has no collective bargaining for the workforce, the employer is allowed to exert pressure on that workforce and pay a wage that is not comenserate with the actual value of that asset
therefore, countries that allow this kind of stealing must be tarrifed so there is an equal playing feild against countries that are not stealing
nothing wrong with free trade as long as it is fair trade
if a corporation is stealing from their resources, their workforce, their infrastructure that is not “free trade”, it’s stealing
if a corporation is allowed to dump crap in the water and air in a country the rest of us have to pay the bill to clean that up
that’s stealing, if there are countries that allow that kind of excess, they get tariffed the amount of damage they do
this is the purpose of a tariff, the purpose is not to “protect” an economy, it’s to prevent the abuse of assets and resources
This is what terrifies me about the falling dollar. Since we don’t make many things here in the US, we have to buy it from overseas. As the dollar continues to fall, or crashes, things will get exponentially more expensive.
One implication that could be drawn from Ricardo’s statement is that markets aren’t free. This gets back to my caveat for all of these discussions: There are no free markets. Markets are always regulated. The only questions are by whom and for whose benefit. Outsourcing benefits investors over workers, companies over employees, and short term profits over long term investments.
dude @ 73
Much more regulated economies, reasonable returns, much larger public sectors, much more progressive taxation – a number of things. Same general trends are happening in a lot of places, but they have put in policies that mitigate them.
dmac @ 90
may your surgery be as painless as possible!
CTuttle @ 85
Flat as a Conference Board…
Damn good point.
The US used to do exactly the same thing to ‘Made In Japan’ back in the sixties.
Oregon has done a great deal of business with Japan in the last few years and is still trying to make inroads for things like produce.
Bustednuckles @ 78
nuckles: I have studied, informally, various professions, trying to find one that screens out all stoopid people.
lawyers: nope
doctors: nope
phD’s: nope
law enforcers: nope
congress persons: nope
presidents of the united states: fuck nope
And I personally don’t know squat about machines, but my good mr. oddmommy who knows a lot, says, “You CAN’T be a mechanic and be stoopid.”
Ian Welsh @ 95
So, if the US were to (as suggested above with the Return of FDR suggestion), an increasing role for public sector spending/indebtedness/investment is not just an wacko suggestion? (Pardon to the foks upthread who suggested it.)
dude @ 89
I think that is in line with the notion of
“don’t sweat the small shit”. My credo!
Carpenters dream;
Flat as a board and easy to nail.
David W. Bartoo @ 76
Politics trumps economics. And economic rules are made up rules of human exchange. There are very few “laws” in economics because the boundary conditions change. When a lot of economists look at markets they take them as given – when historians, economic historians, sociologists and anthropologists look at them they say “how unusual these things are. How uncommon. How fragile.”
We can change things. The best solution includes making sure that free markets really work very well, and recognizing what goods and services shouldn’t be provided by free markets. Combine with progressive taxation, and go to it. The problem is that the free marketers don’t believe in free markets – they want monopolies, ologopolies, people forced to buy from them, rules that benefit them, few competitors etc… The telecomon market in the US may be “private” but it’s as far from free as old Ma Bell, and it serves the public interest worse than Ma Bell did.
Things can be fixed. The questions, as PW said in a post this week, and I’ve intimated before are whether they can be fixed before a crash out (my answer: in theory yes, in practice, no) and who you get when the crash out occurs (hitler/mussolini or Roosevelt – my answer: don’t know, but I’m trying to put my finger on the scale for Roosevelt.)
dmac @ 90 — may your recovery be swift and easy. I had knee replacement 2-1/2 years ago, so I’ve been there. But you need that keyboard and the Lake during your recovery so you can keep in touch with all of us.
Bustednuckles @ 102
Framer’s Creed
Fuck it. Nail it. Fix it tomorrow!
Hugh @ 94
I think if they repeal the Dividend and Corporate tax codes, close the Dubai/Cayman isles PO Box Corporate HQ’s exemptions, our public debt would be reduced significantly! Further along, raise the cap on SS wages…!!!
Thanks for that oddmommy.
I am certainly not stupid, just willfully ignorant.
Only so much data processing available.
Gotta go, Love ya all.
It’s just like “republicans” these days saying that the Constitution only provides that the federal government is only meant for protecting the borders, social tranquility and making money…without reading the rest of the Constitution, or for that matter, refusing to acknowledge that in the first paragraph, before any of that other stuff mentioned above, is that the Constitution will “provide Justice.” Selective memory-selective principles. And if any member of the “republicans” want to quote Adam Smith, they should also read his “theory of moral sentiments” too. Great post.
Ian Welsh @ 103
Okay ,Ian, you answered by earlier stupid question.
Bustednuckles @ 78
The advantage for us in having oil denominated in dollars is that we could always just print more money to pay for it. If the euro replaces the dollar in these markets, we can’t do that anymore, and we lose a lot of our flexibility in dealing with debt.
Some of the most serious and dangerous lying goes on in the New York Sun
http://www.nysun.com/article/63349
oddmommy @ 99
The feed-back loops involved tend to weed out those who err on the side of stoopid. Either they are rendered unable to continue or do not live long enough (the laws of physics) to brag about it. I have never know a stoopid mechanic, but they are sometimes taciturn, deep, but not given to rash discussion.
punaise @ 97
Heh, The Yakkers or the Table…??? Ya’ll are positively evil… Sorry, Maddy!!! *g*
Okay ,Ian, you answered by earlier stupid question.
There is no such thing, especially here.
tha_ks-_o_-i_hawaii———
got-it-_o_ered——-for-_ow
Elliott @ 53
Ain’t no complaint– its called “realism” with respect to shipping charges. Lotsa companies brag that “we’ll ship anywhere in the U.S.!” but then when you tell’em you live in Hawaii, they’ll say oh, gee, we don’t ship there. Or else they tag you with shipping charges greater than the cost of the item. Some companies know that Hawaii is not really on another planet, and have experience with shipping to Hawaii and Alaska. Amazon.com is pretty good about that. But caveat emptor!
Bob in HI
dude @ 100
The problem right now is that money is being siphoned off into worthless paper speculation that does almost nothing for the economy. If private markets will not spend on productive investments then the government must either do so in thier place, or put into place policies which make it more profitable for business to spend money generating real economic activity rather than paper economic activity.
There are a lot of different ways to do that, for example, you could make all buildings get individual meters, allow everyone to sell energy back into the net (for all utilities to buy it) and subsidizie making buildings energy efficient/producers (including through various types of markets). That’s only one possibility, there’s lots of them.
On the taxation side, if you don’t want wall street getting bonusses = to 80 million people’s raises, you just tax it all away. Sure, you can give it, but tax on all income of any kind over 10 million is 95%, with absolutely no deductions (or some such).
All of these things can be done, if there’s political will to do it. But Americans think of themselves as pre-rich, so even though almost none of them will ever earn 10 million in a year (absent hyper inflation) they’d never allow such a thing, even assuming it oculd get past lobbyists.
And yet, in the heyday of American wealth, prosperity and power, that’s essentially what the US did. The CEO of GM used to make something like 200K after tax, back when GM was the US economy.
raven @ 114
You are very kind. It almost hurts.
Hugh @ 70
A nasty little concept known as national sovereignty gets in the way there. Less developed countries quite reasonably don’t like to have US labor and environmental laws jammed down their throats in exchange for access to US markets.
I’m curious to hear what specific provisions of the Internal Revenue Code you perceive as creating “subsidies for companies to outsource.”
Sounds good in theory, but there are a host of definitional issues that would likely make any such tax impossible to administer. To go back to one of Ian’s examples, consider a US company that needs additional manufacturing capacity. If they choose to build that factory in Ireland, which might be a rational business decision for a whole host of reasons, is that “outsourcing,” and if so, why? And if it is outsourcing, what community is entitled to the outsourcing tax revenue when no US jobs are being displaced?
CTuttle @ 106
Markets can be more or less free, but it’s certainly true that there are no absolute free markets (or at least, not for long.)
dude @ 118
It’s an adult education thing!
Has dialectical materialism finally triumphed over Adam Smith? Or has this become an irrelevant or simple question?
bobschacht @ 116
*sigh* So many catalogs, “only the Contiguous 48 States,” the kiss of death…!!! 8-(
Serious contradictions (surprise) going on, with the Move on add, Limbaugh, Fox News saying Generals betraying soldiers
Rep Mark Udall calling them out on Monday
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/…..on-monday/
Saturday September 29, 2007 08:02 EST
Fox News’ attack on the honor and integrity of our war generals
Glenn Greenwald
http://www.salon.com/opinion/g…..index.html
Perris @ 62 makes an excellent point about internalized and externalized costs. For instance: You can’t sell lumber harvested from the National Forests if there are no roads. So who builds the roads into the forests? The government, which means you and me. It’s a cost not borne by the lumber companies (though of course the cost of lobbying for roads *is*). This artificially deflates the real cost of lumber on the market, because part of that cost is borne by all taxpayers. Similar for interstate highways and so forth.
Also, my pet issue is that economists seem happy to look at the GDP and say everything’s peachy because we’re spending a lot of money. But the classic example is that if someone gets diagnosed with cancer, the GDP goes up, because lots of money will be spent to keep that person relatively healthy (ideally). Certainly getting cancer is a bad thing, but number-crunchers blithely count it as beneficial.
Ian Welsh @ 103
I’ll buy that and add a little thumb-thing myself. But, I think it’ll be a squeaker.
Very close thing indeed. Whom do you see as possible FDR? Or, still too early to tell? I guess HRC might surprise me, but I shan’t hold my breath. Thanks for responding, do appreciate it.
How about a simple cap on income?
_ustedk_u_les–As I have seen recently, there has been rumours of countries wanting to move their benchmarks away from the dollar and move to the Euro.
Short term this is going to hurt us. Long term could prove to be a paradigm shift for the world economy that could well be a severe blow to this country.
With a massive recession threatening,this could have repercussions to consumers. Factor in the Canadian dollar being of equal value to ours for the first time in decades, things could get pretty rough for us ‘little people’ very shortly.
Then again, I am just a mechanic. YMMV.======
gi__e-a-_reak!!!!!!!!
this-is-e_a_tly-what-_y-a__ou_ta_t-father-told-_e——-i-_-i__esti_g-i_a-world-fu_d——-_est_of-all-worlds
“Das Kapital” or “Wealth of Nations”. Which is right?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 127
Whew! Your Socialistic colors are bleeding all over, ya might want to apply a tourniquet to staunch the flow…!!! *g*
http://www.crooksandliars.com/…..th-updates
Mark Udall to introduce resolution to condemn Rush with UPDATES
By: John Amato on Friday, September 28th, 2007 at 4:51 PM – PDT
On Monday, Congressman Mark Udall will be introducing a resolution to condemn Rush:
Honoring all Americans serving in the Armed Forces of the United States and condemning the attack by broadcaster Rush Limbaugh on the integrity and professionalism of some of those Americans.
On Monday I will introduce a resolution honoring all Americans serving in the Armed Forces and condemning this unwarranted attack on the integrity and professionalism of those in the Armed Forces who choose to exercise their constitutional right to express their opinions regarding U.S. military action in Iraq. Sincerely, Mark Udall
“ThinkProgress has obtained a letter being circulated on Capitol Hill today by the Senate Democratic Leadership that calls on Clear Channel CEO Mark Mays to repudiate its employee Rush Limbaugh’s “phony troops” remark.
The letter, signed by Sens. Harry Reid (D-NV, Dick Durbin (D-IL), Charles Schumer (D-NY), and Patty Murray (D-WA), states that Limbaugh’s comments were “outrageous” and “unconscionable”
Digby has a great post outlining more buffoonery from the man who is on the Armed Forces Radio in Iraq. How do you think they feel about Rush’s rants?
Jesus General asks: “Can’t you least wait until National Pilonidal Cyst Awareness Month is over?” AmericaBlog asks why isn’t the press covering Limbaugh’s attack on the troops?/
burnspbesq @ 119
It’s offshoring, and would be offshoring even if it wasn’t cheaper.
No one is “entitled” to anything in a moral sense. But in a “sovereignty” sense there are certainly ways you can make it much less profitable to offshore or outsource – don’t let them bring the money back, don’t let the goods come back into the country without being hit by punitive tariffs, don’t allow certain types of technology to be exported to other countries, drop your currencies value, and so on. Change tax laws so that companies with more than a certain percentage of assets overseas pay higher rates on them. Tax those assets (yeah, you can do that. They may not like it, they may say it’s unfair, but you /can/ do it as long as they still want to do business in /your/ country.)
Now these aren’t necessarily the ways I’d deal with outsourcing and offshoring – with labor arbitrage. Me, I’d just shut down capital flows, so that the Law of Comparative Advantage starts working again. If you can’t get a lot of money out of your country, you have to invest in it. Don’t like that? Emigrate. You earned your money in the US/Canada/China/Wherever and the money is not just /your/ money. In fact, it belongs to the state, not you.
Ian @ 117. Another excellent point about CEOs. Jack Welsh never had to be concerned about paying his mortgage, and his successors the same, but GE’s CEO took home “only” 12 million this year, in stock options and other deferments, and a very reasonable salary. If, along with the progressive tax you support, luxury taxes and CEO compensation regulation was separately conveyed by democrats, it could be sold to the electorate. Too many times I witness “republicans” mixing both regulation and taxation as evils of the Democrats. The Democrats must separate the two to convey their message properly.
Help! Mods, I did a booboo! 8-(
Kucinich is the only one in Congress with any balls.
Warmongering Cheeenee needs to be stopped!!! They really are going to attack Iran…I’m pretty sure of it. This is freaking insanity. Somebody help America.
CTuttle @ 134
Ooh, it got by…!!!
David W. Bartoo @ 126
She’s likely to be Hoover, sadly. She won’t make the necessary changes, but will sit around during the early awful years.
_s_olly—
dmac @ 90 — may your recovery be swift and easy. I had knee replacement 2-1/2 years ago, so I’ve been there. But you need that keyboard and the Lake during your recovery so you can keep in touch with all of us.
it’s-ok-i’ll-_e-fi_e
truly
key_oard-_o_i_g-soo_!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
free!!!!!!!!!!!!ad-_est-frie_d-_ri_gi_g-it!!!!!!!!!
tha_ks!
Enoch Root @ 125
You have hit on something that I have wondered about. The folks who invent and continue to play with definitions and measures (like GDP):
Are these measures concensus measures within the scientific (or econometric) circles, or are they just the ones everybody uses because the government decided to use them?
I have read over the years many criticisms of econonomic measures and also that government statistical bureaus change the definitions from time to time.
How do these standards become “standards” and are our standards consistent with any “international” standards? It seems to me having a common measuring stick is important and having a metric v imperial conversion problem is downright dangerous for a government policy point of view.
msmolly @ 104
dmac,
I’ve known several people who’ve had the knee replacement surgery. The PT afterwards is critical. One lady I knew needed it, but couldn’t hack the pt afterwards, so she just gave up walking. My mother had both knees replaced, and afterwards, she fought tooth and nail with her PT, but they eventually accommodated to each other, and my Mother made a full recovery. Now, at the age of 89, she walks briskly with no trace of a limp of any kind. The key is good communication with your PT. Make sure to tell him/her exactly what you’re feeling. Accept their goals but negotiate details, like the pace at which you do things (e.g., half as fast for twice as long, if their pace is killing you).
Good luck!
Bob in HI
Loo Hoo. @ 63
I am certainly not opposed to the idea of consumers deciding to buy or not buy products based on any criteria that seem rational to them. However, it is worth noting that in a host of developing countries, from El Salvador to Botswana to Sri Lanka to Vietnam, apparel-manufacturing jobs are some of the best, highest-paying jobs in the local economy — precisely because the Nikes and Tommy Hilfigers of the world fear a backlash from U.S. consumers if they use child or convict labor or allow their goods to be manufactured in sweatshops. Apparel companies spend tons of money monitoring the “social compliance” of their vendors.
Ian, Hoover? Not, Silent Cal???
As many people as possible need to read the truth about Chenee’s bunker busters. I posted it yesterday, but it needs to get out there:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/i…..p;aid=2093
CTuttle @ 142
Depends how far along we are. Is this the beginning of the meltdown (ie. is the real estate burst our 29) or have we got another cycle to go. If we have a cycle to go, Cal. If not, Hooever. Hopefully it’s Cal, because the Republicans aren’t going to put a Roosevelt.
Kathleen @ 124
Re: Rush’s phony soldiers:
Rush should be ignored. When Rethugs get on about Move-On, it contributes to the low regard in which they are held, and it helped Move-On. Have we not learned anything?
Ian Welsh @ 144
Best guess, Ian, do we have a cycle to go?
Ian;
I threw HRC out at you just to see if you and I agreed, we do. Do you see anyone on the horizon who might rise to the needs we all perceive? Anyone? Desperately seeking FDR caliber person…
BigMitch @ 145
Agreed. If resolutions were to be drafted everytime he said something stupid….
I do find it interesting that China, a nation with a rather heavy duty socialistic economy and a communist history is poised to beat the crap out of the citadel of capitalism, the good old red, white and blue. And of course China owns a lot of the United States, by the way.
If you don’t rebuild the muscles you are wasting your time. I broke my back in 1975 and have Harrington Rods T-6. I had friends that played football at Illinois where they had just started a kinesiology clinic (what is now sports medicine). My friends urged me to go but my orthopod was skeptical. Some 32 years later I still think it was one of the most positive things I have ever done. I have been a basketball player, runner and now a swimmer. Do the rehab, please.
Heh, The Yakkers or the Table…??? Ya’ll are positively evil… Sorry, Maddy!!! *g*
No worries (((((G))))))
The economic picture painted here is stark and the consequences of a depression far more serious than one can imagine if it comes to fruition. A question for ya’ll, if we had kept our system with tariffs intact way back when would the current situation still ensue. I know this is woulda shoulda coulda but I am curious as to what you guys think. My personal uneducated feeling is that it wasn’t a good idea to abandon tariffs in favor of a free market because as was said above, a free market leaves humanity hanging in the winds of chance and that is not good business in the long run.
David W. Bartoo @ 147
Don’t know. FDR looked like a lightweight to a lot of people. He was a really odd duck, with a very unusual management and problem solving style.
I don’t see anybody obvious. I’d like to think Edwards, but I doubt it. Maybe Gore.
Get Tough @ 148
Did you see Josh Marhsall’s post on the Fox News talking head who said our Generals “betray” the troops? Fox News. Where’s the Senate Resolution on that?–forget Rsuh.
Get Tough @ 148
… ecological consequences from denuding the forrests to make paper.
kathlee_-Move the money move the corporation where there are less restrictions, less overhead, less, less, less. Means More more more for those on the top. Been going on for at least the last 30 years in the states.
_ut-so_ti_es-that-is-_e__essary-sad-_ut-true
Elliott @ 146
I think this is it. But that really is a guess, I honestly don’t know. Any other country would already have gone into a tailspin, but hegemonic powers have a lot of ruin in them, and the US keeps staggering on from hit to hit. It’s the zombieconomy and it keeps amazing me. “I have no idea how it’s even alive, Jim”.
Ian Welsh @ 144
Good point! Basically, how fast is the cycling… I fear the worst, and foresee it impacting the national/global economy by the time Hill(god forbid!) is sworn in …!!! 8-(
dude @ 152
Nope, but the Bushies are trying to get the dems swing at something in the dirt with that stuff. I am certaintly not for taking the “high road” with the Bushies–you have to smack the bullies on the nose to get their attention and never back down from a fight. But as BigMitch said, MoveOn got some serious attention from that circus.
Ian Welsh @ 151
Ian you’ve thumbed it up just about the way I see it. Interesting times. The times will shape the proper person(s) but the ruling class has been nailing things down since FDR.
So we will see. Again, great appreciation; you are the best.
_i_-_it_h-”ecological consequences from denuding the forrests to make paper.”
well-it-is-_e_essary-to-de_ude-forests-to-_ale-paper—-that’s-a-fa_t—–so—
Oh my gawd. If public financing of elections ever happens, just imagine at how many will be thrown outta work. My heart bleeds.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..00071.html
Conplan 8022
If you want it Mr. Gore, it’s yours.
burnspbesq @ 119: “Sounds good in theory, but there are a host of definitional issues that would likely make any such tax impossible to administer. To go back to one of Ian’s examples, consider a US company that needs additional manufacturing capacity. If they choose to build that factory in Ireland, which might be a rational business decision for a whole host of reasons, is that “outsourcing,” and if so, why? And if it is outsourcing, what community is entitled to the outsourcing tax revenue when no US jobs are being displaced?”
This gets back to a fundamental truth about corporate capitalism: The corporation has much more power than it should. That it *can* relocate to Wherever in order to avoid taxes and unions and so forth is a function of how much capital it has to spend on such a move, and how unmoored by its charter it really is. A corporation can incorporate in one state and move anywhere it wants to. It’s unaccountable in this way. It can never die, so it just keeps accumulating capital to itself. Furthermore, the far-off land of Wherever is going to offer this corporation all kinds of tax breaks and trade deals and whatever else, because they want this corporation to move in and drive their economy. The corporation itself becomes the market to which localities are pandering.
Which brings us right back to Ricardo: “but if in consequence of the diminished rate of production in the lands of England, from the increase of capital and population, wages should rise, and profits fall, it would not follow that capital and population would necessarily move from England to Holland, or Spain, or Russia, where profits might be higher.” This is totally and completely untrue in the world of corporate capitalism. In 1817 it might have been true, but in 2007, forget it.
The real solution to these kinds of problems (if they really are problems.. Many argue that they are not) is the corporate death penalty. Corporations operate by virtue of special legal status granted to them by the state through a charter. The very *idea* of a corporation *is, itself, a form of market regulation.* The most severe use of this form of regulation is the revocation of a corporate charter. This is a rare occurrence indeed, but we need to put a few heads on the block.
ok, dmac……first I regarded it as a kind of endearing typographical laryngitis……but now I am addicted to filling in your blanks.
This is why I never do crosswords, sodoku, etc etc. Never even touch hangman.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 161
Edwards has vowed to abide by the Public Financing regime…! Of the Declared’s, he’s my man!!!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 127
Same problem as when income tax rates are perceived by a significant percentage of the population as “too high.” Everybody cheats, evasion of the cap becomes the national sport, barter becomes a preferred alternative to monetary transactions, and respect for law goes down across the board. Sounds a lot like Italy, doesn’t it? And I, for one, have no desire to live in Italy.
Get Tough @ 157
This is an aside on two themes in this thread:
First, I agree that of all the Dems running, Edwards leans harder into the prevailing cackle of Hillary when it comes to the policies Ian is referring to. He is my choice and I think he is electible despite being outspent, and electible with an agenda that people are beginning to see as investing in ourselves—the political will glimmers.
The second on MoveOn. In that very same camp (Edwards) there remains a strong division of opinion about whether any good came of the ad or not. I think it was a valuable ad personally, but you are probably right about “swinging in the dirt” as an exercise from this point on.
Ian Welsh @ 156
lmao
“I have no idea how it’s even alive, Jim”
although that’s not really funny in reality
tha_ks-elliot!!!!!!!!!
goi_g-to-_ed-soo_
ha_g-i_-there
all-will-_e-well
Enoch Root @ 164
It’s true, but it doesn’t have to be true. The thing is that politics (to be crass: the people who control the army) is the trump. You just tell them they can’t do it, make it illegal, and lock up or shoot those who disobey. (It wouldn’t even come to too much of that. Corporate leaders aren’t going to jail over this stuff). The problem is getting there, and politicians, who are (literally) in bed with business, aren’t going to do this stuff until there’s a huge downturn and the mob is howling.
The very *idea* of a corporation *is, itself, a form of market regulation.* The most severe use of this form of regulation is the revocation of a corporate charter. This is a rare occurrence indeed, but we need to put a few heads on the block.
Great idea, but what triggers the redress desired? Too much investment in foreign lands without reciprocal investment in domestic markets results in pulling their charter?
Ian Welsh @ 152
I believe that the idea that Gore is any kind of answer to our problems is overly romanticized. He voted as a yellow dog dem. And Tipper annoyed the hell out of me in the 70’s with her need to censor lyrics. Better than Bush. Not better than Edwards. IMHO.
dmac @ 170
Hope your surgery goes well and your recovery fast. And your exclamation points are just the best !!!!!!
I first read about David Ricardo back when Ricky Ricardo was still doing live episodes on TV with his wife, Lucy. When I was in the 9th grade, I read Robert L. Heilbroner’s _The Worldy Philosophers_. It was the first book I read where I had to read large sections twice to feel I understood the concepts. I re-read it 15 years ago, too. Reading it the first time helped me decide that one of things I wasn’t going to be was an economist.
dmac @ 138
The best friend coming is probably better than the keyboard! Cheers!
marymccurnin @ 173
mare-
I gotta agree with you.
Even with the Global Stuff and His Book, every time someone brings him up as our Saviour, I think of Tipper and her lyrics censureship thingy. I just do. I know he has a lot to offer, but, I can’t help how my brain works.
burnspbesq @ 167
burnspbesq @ 167
Well said. Although I don’t know, Italy ain’t that bad a place, from what I hear.
Social norms matter a lot. If tax evasion is considered ok, and reasonable, then you’ll have a problem. Which is why, in effect, you need a class war (a new one. The middle class lost the last one without ever realizing it was on.)
Ian Welsh @ 171
Great stuff here, both. Ian you are laying out the blueprint. Lotsa pain, and then if
all is on the line, some gain. It has got to be. Squeaker stuff, tho’!
Ian Welsh @ 95
In Europe, less of the ideology of having to be a winner at any cost, more equilibrium of what it means for the common good (long tradition of social movement. Those countries are laughably called ’socialist’ by many here in US). Mr. Ackermann, for example, (Deutsche Bank) has a strong commitment to changing that (people there still find executive pay such as his immoral). And there are still enough common folks who find him despicable.
Less rugged individualism, with one word, for better or worse.
odd_o__y-says-”ok, dmac……first I regarded it as a kind of endearing typographical laryngitis……but now I am addicted to filling in your blanks.
This is why I never do crosswords, sodoku, etc etc. Never even touch hangman.”
((((odd_o__y))))
it-is
CTuttle @ 166
And I agree with you, and with OKk.
But hey, guess what? The emessem spin is that Edwards is some pathetic welfare case who admits he can’t keep up with the big guys when it comes to $$, and therefore he’s toast.
Shameful.
Ian – my brain is reeling between your thread and dmac’s keyboard. Well written but I had to stay focused or reread parts of the thread. Not because you weren’t clear but because economics is so unclear. I feel like all economics has huge holes not addressed because the assumptions would dead-end if taken through the black hole.
As for dmac’s keyboard, it is much like hearing Greenspan – full of cryptic spaces and symbols:-)
raven @ 150
I don’t think dmac is having knee replacement, just a “clean up” of bone chips in the knee left from earlier surgery (if I “translated” correctly). But there may be PT involved, and I agree that it is crucial to full range of motion recovery.
Sorry, this is pretty O/T.
tha_ks-twai_!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
burnspbesq #119, to address your poins
You know if national sovereignty doesn’t get in the way of investment and can accommodate often complicated taxing policies, it probably can accommodate other factors as well. Indeed much of this occurs at the company level. If the American company is building its own plant or hiring a local contractor, it can control what it wants to do or have done in that country. Most currently don’t because they don’t have to. It is only when a Nike gets a publicity blackeye that they backtrack and try to do things right. Otherwise they just don’t want to know. If our goverment puts pressure on American companies doing business abroad, then yes things can change.
The US government spends a lot of money. It can control how that money is spent and require that companies doing work for the government not outsource this work. It can also change how tax payments are handled on profits earned aboard. If they are deferable, for instance, these deferments can be rescinded.
Finally, the calculus of what a company’s obligations are to and what benefits it derives from a community are often narrowly drawn by conservatives and free marketeers. But as some have pointed out above, a stable population of trained workers, the educational system that created it, and the political system which allowed a company to grow and thrive are all part of the equation. Yes, I am sure companies would like to say we paid our taxes, we paid our workers, and now we should be allowed to do whatever we want. I just think that the government and the rest of us should be allowed to say, Not so fast there. You can do what you want after you pay us for the inconvenience you create by leaving.
It is all part of the profit calculus. Companies already live under certain restrictions. I’m saying they should be held to a few more. If they want to cut and run, then they should have to pay a severance package to the community they are leaving. If there calculus tells them that taking in all costs it would be better to stay so much the better. If not, they will have discharged their social obligation.
QuakerGirl @ 182
This may be the most econo-geeky post I’ve ever written, actually. I don’t expect to write anything more so. Free trade orthodoxy is a huge problem in economics and it’s something that needs to be dealt with, and this is my small effort towards it. But it’s not an easy post.
Kathleen @ 124
An important companion piece to Greenwald’s important column (Friday September 28, 2007 06:25 EST: The U.S. military’s role in preventing the bombing of Iran) is the Wayne Madsen Report from Sept. 24 titled “Air Force refused to fly weapons to Middle East theater“
The original report was released to subscribers only. If Madsen is right, this was not an accident or a rogue operation, but came straight from the White House! We narrowly averted nuclear war, and the threat ain’t over yet.
Bob in HI
Enoch Root @ 164
All due respect, your suggestion simply trades one set of difficult definitional issues for another. What corporate “crimes” would, in your view, justify the “death penalty” of which you speak?
demi @ 177
do you remember Frank Zappa telling Tippie et al to kiss his ass back in the day? Priceless.
Ian Welsh @ 186
Thanks for writing it and sharing some time. Look forward to any more geeky posts you might want to put up.
demi @ 177
I detest the notion of a savior, and have said so repeatedly, my guess, however is that Albert’s matured a bit. I did not vote for him because in 2000, I didn’t think he really ‘got’ it. Now tho’ he’s educable, perhaps. It has to be someone who can step aside and ‘outside’ conventional thought, he might be up to it. No one else has the platform to challenge the ‘inevitable’ slide…
Albert is not ideal. Whom would you suggest?
oddmommy @ 189
We check very carefully what my 12 year old granddaughter listens to. Is this censureship?
Oh, and also: it does not have to be all ‘right now’. Slow growth is good, it supports the children. Case in point: little heating firm in our village. They grew slowly, and people know them. After 30 years, a new building. Industrial area in our small town: grew slowly, one firm after another. Not some ‘industrial park’ for which huge acreage was razed and buildings thrown up in the cheapest way possible. I always cringe because in these industrial buildings here, no energy efficiency, no requirements to build more stories…just a concrete slab, cheap walls and ducts – let the tenant worry about heating/cooling. No requirements for malls to build parking structures which do not eat up so much land.
dude @ 191
yes, thank you Ian.
sorry-to-take-the-thread-off-topi_-_ut-i_-a-way-was-fu__y
i-so-totally-lo_e-you-all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
is-so-totally-frustrati_g-to-_ot-_e-a_le-to-say-what-i-wa_t
i-o_ly-did-it-_e_ause-it-was-so-fu__y
_ut-
it’s-just-a-_o_e-_hip-
i’ll-_e-fi_e
Yes Ian, I’m interested in anything you have to say. Of course I feel that way about everybody here, but your grasp and clarity are fabulous, and your candor is so unlike most economists. I place you in pretty lofty company.
a_d-ia_——
what-you-wrote-was-true
_y-dad-was-a-_orporate-a
__ou_ta_t-a_d-taught-_e-a-few-thi_gs-
e_erythi_g-you-ha_e-said-ties-i_-with-what-he-taught-_e
instead of a savior:
Kathryn in MA @ 199
Extremely well put. Our brief for the forseeable future.
Hugh @ 186
Nothing you are saying here is terribly unreasonable (although I disagree with a lot of it). But I would simply remind you that — and I think Ian will back me up on this — everything is connected to everything else, and ya gotta watch out for second- and third-order effects and unintended consequences.
Hypothetical (or maybe not so hypothetical) example. Assume that in 2009 Congress passes your ban on outsourcing by government contractors, and overrides President Clinton’s veto. Assume further that (to pick one big government contractor at random) Boeing complies, and as a result Boeing’s income from government contracting goes down, because its cost went up and DOD won’t renegotiate the price of the aircraft that Boeing is building for the Air Force under than contract. Assume further that as a result of this profit decline, the price of Boeing’s stock goes down. Assume further that you have chosen to invest some or all of your 401(k) account in an S&P index fund.
Are you better off, on a net-net basis?
Let’s not forget Ricardo’s second law. The ‘Iron law of wages’. He said the majority, unless the goverment intervenes, will always be compensated at the subsistence level. It’s goverments giving bargaining leverage to labor (mostly thru unions) that created the middle class. The ‘free market’ leaves labor as peasants.
burnspbesq @ 201
Is the function of economics, assuming that genuine ’social value’ is our concern AND in our collective interest, to serve the excess wants of individuals or the greater good by preserving ALL aspects of the ‘commonwealth?
You’ve merely updated the ‘enclosure’ notions to appeal to a middle-class ’sensibility’ of entitlement.
ian welch and firedoglake,
this is really excellent political education.
thank you so much for making the effort and, implicitly, for expressing optimism that folks want to learn.
better political education is vital to the likelihood of the american gov’t that evolved from the late 1700’s surviving into the 21st century.
one criticism,
do NOT,
ever,
apologize for being a “geek” or a “wonK’.
for a citizen to be competent to decide and to vote requires understanding – and not just intuitive understanding.
american politics is serious business, for americans, and for the rest of the world. and americans as a society are seriously ignorant of the problems they face and of the implications of gov’t policy to “solve” those problems.
“geek” and “wonk” are customarily used either
pejoratively or apologetically,
as if to meliorate the effect on the “audience” of any effort at serious discussion or education.
that is really wrong, really foolish, and a completely inappropriate obeisance to television.
the use of these two words is a function of the fact that news, education, information is, these days, entirely viewer-centered entertainment.
public discourse is implicitly nielsen-rated, even if it is not teevee.
“geeks” and “wonks” are, in fact, people who have experience and knowledge others do not have – like experienced farmers, blacksmiths, home cooks and canners, midwives, and mechanics.
passing on that knowledge and those skills are at the heart of human progress.
no apology necessary for having or for sharing special insight.
keep on educatin’.
Twain @ 192
um, no, I would say that is responsible grandparenting.
Someone in Washington doing that for you, well……what do you think?
oddmommy @ 204
Was just asking the question. I really don’t want her to grow up thinking that guys can call her names and that it’s okay. I don’t want censureship but I do like the fact that on i-Tunes they label some songs explicit.
burnspbesq #201,
I think the central question is: Do we want an economy that primarily favors investors or workers? Yes, I know we need both, but if we say workers are our priority, then we craft policies to protect them and adjust these policies as necessary and as reality dictates.
One of the things that bothers me about globalization is that it is treated as if it can only be done one way, i.e. the current way. I think this is fundamentally untrue and a gentler, fairer, and more durable globalization is possible and preferable to what we have now.
Ian sez: Politics trumps economics.
That is an interesting point to debate. My impression is that economics is a continuous function. I don’t get the impression that politics is not discontinuous.
We may experience gyrations in the economy, but political control is much more fragile.
Is there such a thing as a political “bubble”? There are trends but nothing approaching the resiliance of an economic pulse. Even if political continuity cannot be maintained, the goal of economics is to maintain personal/cultural continuity no matter how the political system works. Not that the economic system can’t change (communism vs. capitalism vs. chaos) but folks still have to eat. The day to day process of living is economic. Political engagement is somewhat more elective.
Not a rigorous arguement, but just a feeling at this point.
John Forde @ 202
I always thought the Iron Law of Wages was from Proudhon.
Ian Welsh @ 187
Ian, this post and many of your other writings are very concise and break economic issues down nicely.
I remember when I first started looking at economics from a radical perspective. Reading Marx and listening to guys like David M. Gordon at the New School talking about the social structures of accumulation just made everything so clear taht I’ve found it hard to look at economics reports or listen to financial radio without running everything through the filters I’ve learned to use to digest it.
Too bad more people believe an a**hole like Neil Cavuto than take the time to read about what is being done to this country and its people and institutions in the name of profit.
Hmm, let’s see, has anyone tried a system that called for the free movement of goods while restricting the movement of labour and capital?
Ohh right, Bretton Woods, 1945-1973.
Nice post, and you have guts to start one with a quote from Ricardo!
I don’t know if Ian Welsh is still here, but want to make two comments, which are techie, but if you start a post with Ricardo, I guess that means it is OK.
There are theorems that state that if two countries are “similar enough” free trade will work as if labor and capital were perfectly mobile within one country. I think Stolper Samuelson is the first modern version. But even Paul Samuelson himself admitted that no one ever figured out what “similar” meant in a multi-factor multi-good context, even if we knew what “similar” meant, what was “enough” similarity to make it work is also unknown. So to that extent, a lot of free trade hysteria among economists is little more than religious faith.
Another thing that has always puzzled me about the free trade public policy religion is that it generalizes wildly from very simple and very special models -namely two country models, each with two goods and two factors of production. So, there, free trade makes each country just as best as it can be and the winners in each country can compenstate the losers. That does not hold in more complicated models. In more complicated models the overall world pie gets larger with free trade, but one or moer countries may lose absolutely in that they are poorer with free trade int the sense that the relative winners cannot compensate the losers, and the whole country will need a subsidy to share in the improvement in posterity.
Anyway, the dishonesty of some market oriented free trade type economists in selling their free trade policies has harmed the cause of improved, more efficient and more equitable free markets. Some of these goofs have admitted that they are selling snake oil to the public but wrt the worthy cause of “free trade”, the ends justify the means. So these tough guys have failed on their own terms -see Doha round stalemate. All they get is funky bilateral trade agreements from the Bush administration, that I do not think will last and are mostly not about free trade at all but rather a kind of international crony capitalism. Maybe that last is what they really want. Anyway, it has become a mess.
wesgpc @ 212
Yeah. This article is one that was a bit scary to write, but necessary, I think.
One that discusses how aggregate pies can go up because of decreased consumer prices while tons of people are underemployed, or unemployed would also be worth doing. Stirling did one once, but it got lost with BOP going down.
Economists alwyas talk about compensating the losers, but somehow it never really happens.
I’d also love to discuss pareto optimality sometime, but I’m not sure how to show people why it matters. Still, the line that a sadistic torturer and his victim is a closed but pareto optimal system is one that I’ve been looking for an opportunity to use for a long time (not original to me, but brilliant.)
Oklahoma kiddo @ 129
Both – in their own way.
Just a dumb comment that probably says more about me than it does about economics, but every time I read that “profits do this” or “capital does that”, I cringe. It’s not profits or capital doing anything, it’s the people who control profits and capital who are doing things. We talk about economic agencies such as “the market” as if they have an existence separate from human activity.
Economics as I understand it assumes rational actors, which is what we seem to be lacking these days, at least in any moral or ethical sense when you look at the effects of globalization and “free trade.”
Sure to be EPUd but, what the heck?
Thanks for the clear explanation, Ian, I do see what you mean . But I have a big But.
But what about us in the Third World?Some people in this thread talk as if exporting US jobs, capital & production to other countries with Comparative Advantage was a Bad Thing.But isn’t the export of capital to other countries one of the few things that can make global capitalism acceptable to us? How else will we raise production, wages, taxes, GDP? I mean, maybe US workers will suffer but SAfrican workers will benefit. So,why should this SAfrican condemn Free Trade?
The only place where it really hurts us is when Firstworlders like the US talk Free Trade but in reality impose such tariffs and subsidise their domestic producers to such an extent that we cannot enter the markets.
I don’t know much about economics, so I should be delighted if someone would explain this to me.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 129
*Idea* Get them, Read them, Find Out, Report Back
orionATL @ 204
Just to add that knowledge of economic facts is of the utmost importance in facing the political crisis being presented. e.g. knowing the difference between rich and wealth and how they differ from, say, the plutocracy of those controlling the sources of economic production, and why it is so.
Such a discussion is difficult enough between educated people but must be extended to a much wider audience who, like the jerks hyjacking the post for their sports trivia shite (there are times and places such shite is appropriate), haven’t the educational background enough to figure their way out of a wet paper bag. Too often, the public’s premium is shown to ignorance and the lowest common denominator possible.
Thanks Ian again for a sterling display of knowledge and for the intellegent questions raised in the comments. All the best…….