(Just ignore the redemptive ending, and it’s perfect…)
Consortiumnews recently republished this Bob Parry piece from 2005, which reviews the history of how the right ended up with a powerful messaging machine which “can… make small mistakes by their opponents big and big mistakes by their allies small,” while the left… didn’t:
In the mid-1970s, after the U.S. defeat in Vietnam and President Richard Nixon’s resignation over the Watergate scandal, American progressives held the upper-hand on media. Not only had the mainstream press exposed Nixon’s dirty tricks and published the Pentagon Papers secrets of the Vietnam War, but a vibrant leftist “underground” press informed and inspired a new generation of citizens.
(…)
At this key juncture, leaders of the Right and the Left made fateful choices that have shaped today’s political world. Though both sides had access to similar amounts of money from wealthy individuals and like-minded foundations, the two sides chose to invest that money in very different ways.
The Right concentrated on gaining control of the information flows in Washington and on building a media infrastructure that would put out a consistent conservative message across the country. As part of this strategy, the Right also funded attack groups to target mainstream journalists who got in the way of the conservative agenda.
The Left largely forsook media in favor of “grassroots organizing.” As many of the Left’s flagship media outlets foundered, the “progressive community” reorganized under the slogan – “think globally, act locally” – and increasingly put its available money into well-intentioned projects, such as buying endangered wetlands or feeding the poor.
Parry describes this as a strategic error, which I suppose it was, but I don’t see it as an inexcusable, “what were they thinking?” blunder. Both movements were simply being true to their natures. The progressives wanted to do good works and empower ordinary citizens to participate in the democratic process, while the conservatives could care less about such things, and focused on accumulating power.
Obviously, that progressive strategy didn’t work out so well, but it was perfectly understandable. Just try to imagine progressives saying, “Sorry, we can’t help save the wetlands or feed the poor; we have to build a media messaging machine. Trust us, this will totally pay off in 10-20 years.” But in helping others, we forgot to help ourselves. Conservatives helped no-one but themselves, and they’ve been reaping the media benefits since 1980. Yes, I know they’re about as popular as bubonic plague right now, but think where they’d be without a friendly media.
The obvious question is, how do we set a balance between helping others and helping ourselves? Do we have enough money and energy to build up a progressive media infrastructure and keep fighting all the outrages the Republicans throw at us on a daily basis? Can we do both? I guess we’ll have to.
(h/t Make Them Accountable)



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Hi Eli
Zed?
I got the zed!!!!!!!!!!!!
Day-uhm! Congrats Cassie. *chagrined look*
Hi Kass!
hey Eli, happy Friday!
singles, just like that?
Happy Friday, LL!
dakine01 @ 4
Day-uhm! Congrats Cassie. *chagrined look*
She’s young. And quick. Sux, don’t it?
Hi Eli!
People are supposed to grow out of being selfish.
Hi jayt!
SnarKassandra @ 10
That’s the thing about Republicans – it seems like they stop evolving emotionally somewhere between two and twelve (it varies).
Eli @ 11
And with our preznint, it stopped completely at about age 7.
Eli @ 11
My cousin is 13 and he only has little moments where he is not selfish and into electronic stuff.
I think Parry is correct in his interpretation of the 30 year buildup of the right wing media machine.
So they do one thing at a time and did “succeed.” Or should I say, they succeeded. Without a doubt.
We are multi=taskers. I know there is a downside to this, but I think we can take on this challenge.
LoudounLib @ 12
Whatever the frog-exploding age is, that’s where he stopped.
Excellent question, Eli. We have to do both; the helping other people thing is still out there, and the progressive blogs are now starting to play the missing media roll. It’s not the megaphone of the media, but it’s growing, rapidly, and it’s becoming more credible.
And with our preznint, it stopped completely at about age 7.
He must have learned how to blow up frogs at a very early age then.
on edit: Eli and I are thinking alike?
Poor Eli.
Everythingseemssoneat @ 14
I agree, but I think he overlooks the importance of corporate media ownership, which I don’t think we could have done much about.
Tonite, I’d like to imagine waking up in the morning without a gop friendly press.
ccmask @ 20
here in America?
It’s hard to compete when it turns out the Clintons and Bushes are good friends.
Eli,
Doing good works should not be mutually exclusive to building a media machine.
Maybe there needs to be a revitalization of the old “underground/alternative” weeklies that once were so prevalent in many cities across the country. Unfortunately, many of these papers became extraordinarily successful (The Phoenix in Boston or the Hartford/New Haven Advocate or many of the other examples) and were thus co-opted from their origins or they folded.
Or maybe we are seeing the renaissance in the build up of the web and Net Roots. Many of the folks writing here and other left blogosphere sites would most likely have been writing or reporting at an alternative weekly 30 years ago.
We’re a little behind the right but catching up quick.
IMNSVHO
Scarecrow @ 17
One of the things that struck me was how so much of progressive effort had to be spent trying to put right everything the Republicans fucked up. Kind of a fringe benefit of their awful policies, I suppose.
Eli,
The Progressive Media Messaging Machine? You’re lookin’ at it my friend! Da Blogs!
And keeping true to our Progressive nature, it is genetically disorganized, it is variable in its volume and intensity, and oft times seems to take vast pleasure in speaking to an empty room.
That said, it is also just like democracy in that “(it) is the worst form of
governmentmedia except all the others that have been tried.”Eli – That’s a good point.
Good Evening Eli:
You’ve got some feisty folk arriving here and, as usual you’ve got the goods. You does indeed bring important things to light.
dakine01 @ 23
We can’t stop doing good. It’s, like, our brand. More than that, it’s our animating principle.
Wonderful post, Eli.
Parry has written some great books. His writing on the conventional wisdom during the 80s and how it controlled the message that Americans received is perfect for anyone who wants to understand how we got to the point where the press is nothing more than a propaganda machine for the administration, just like in Stalin’s Soviet Union.
Eli @ 24
Well, if they did most things right, we could all go fishing/bowling/hiking/movie-ing, etc.
SnarKassandra @ 10
The Repugs never grew up, Cassie…!!! 8-(
Fuck Rush Limbaugh, constant shill for the selfish message machine!
I collected statements by Some Democratic DC Lawmakers on his “phony soldiers” statement:
Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee Chairman, Rep. Chris Van Hollen: Rush Limbaugh’s personal attack on our men and women in uniform is reprehensible. It minimizes the sacrifice our troops in Iraq and their families are making and has no place in the public discourse. Rush Limbaugh owes our military and their families an apology for his hurtful comments that minimize their service to our country.
Rep. Patrick Murphy, Iraq Veteran of the 82nd Airborne where he was awarded the Bronze Star for service: Someone should tell chicken-hawk Rush Limbaugh that the only phonies are those who choose not to serve and then criticize those who do. I served proudly, so did two of my fellow paratroopers in the 82nd Airborne who spoke out and died just weeks ago. Generations of American veterans have worn the uniform with pride and we know it is no contradiction to serve your country and still disagree with the Bush-civilian leadership that mismanaged this war.
Rep. Frank Pallone: Yesterday Limbaugh called service members who support a withdrawal from Iraq ‘phony soldiers.’ Is Limbaugh serious? Is a soldier who is honorably serving our nation in Iraq any less a soldier if he questions what appears to be a never-ending war? Last month seven soldiers from the US Army 82nd Airborne Division wrote an op-ed in The New York Times questioning our continued war efforts, but also stating, and I quote, ‘we need not talk about our morale, as committed soldiers weeks will see this mission through.’ Now since publication of that op-ed, two of the soldiers have died. As this op-ed showed, soldiers may question the war, but it does not mean that they’re any less committed to their mission, and now I wonder if Republicans who showed so much outrage towards MoveOn.org yesterday will hold Rush Limbaugh to the same standard — and I wouldn’t hold your breath.
Rep. Jan Schakowsky: Or retired General William Odom, the head of the National Security Agency during the Reagan administration, his advice, quote: ‘the sensible policy is not to stay the course in Iraq, it is rapid withdrawal, re-establishing strong relations with our allies… General Odom says that until the US withdraws from Iraq, and admits a strategic error, no such coalition can be formed, thus those who fear leaving a mess are helping make things worse while preventing a new strategic approach with some promise of success. Does Rush Limbaugh really want to look General Odom in the eye and call him a phony? … And while we’re at it, let’s pay attention to the 72% of American troops serving in Iraq who also think the US should exit the country within the next year and more than one in four who say the troops should leave immediately according to the Zogby poll. I guess they’re all a bunch of phonies according to Rush Limbaugh.
Sen. John Kerry, U.S. Navy Vietnam Veteran: This disgusting attack from Rush Limbaugh, cheerleader for the chicken-hawk wing of the far right, is an insult to American troops,” Kerry said. “Mr. Limbaugh owes an apology to everyone who has ever worn the uniform of our country, and an apology to the families of every soldier buried in Arlington National Cemetery.
Sen. James Webb, U.S.M.C. Vietnam Veteran, former Secretary of the Navy for President Ronald Reagan: I really regret Mr. Limbaugh saying things like that. You know, we have a political diversity inside the military just like we do in the country. I really react strongly when people politicize the service of our military people. They have a wide variety of political viewpoints, from all the way for this to all the way against it, and we need to respect that.
What I’ll probably never comprehend is why talk radio as it stands is attractive to anyone. It is not as though the righties decided to talk reasonably about their point of view; talk radio is not one long “Conscience of a Conservative”. Instead, it is knee-jerk prejudice, lowest-extremely-common-denominator namecalling and contempt, and — well, add your own. You just can’t make a progressive version of that, it seems to me, nor should you.
What puzzles me about one flagship of the “librul media” is the two-headed nature of the NYT. The news division under Keller is running somewhat to the right of Broder and the bipartisan crowd, while the Opinion operation under Rosenthal would at its best not be out of place as a post here. What goes on there? Anybody know? Who was for sale, and who bought whom?
David W. Bartoo @ 27
I’m afraid
of women
(No, I’m not gonna comment beyond this, but sometimes containing my omnisciense isn’t possible, so you get a blog by)
You already have the media infrastructure – it’s called the internet – that you (i.e. the blogosphere)are already using to effectively fight back.
The world has changed, new media won; don’t look at archaic models from which to fight the present (and future) political battles. That’s what your opponents hope you do – and why the CM and inside the Beltway crowd consistently denigrates new media, b/c your becoming more and more relevant as they become less and less so.
Simple question, simple answer (and one that your living, so I’m not sure how you could miss it).*
_____________________________________
*Your a blogger on a very popular blog, how could you miss that?
Eli @ 28
Well, that was kinda the point in the old alternatives. Even Rolling Stone covered doing good things in amongst the sex and drugs and rock ‘n’ roll and stuff.
Doing good should be part of those evolving narratives of conscience which people will respond to. The folks here, articulate and capable, need to flex their literary muscle and build the vision of the future that we all can see in our mind’s eye.
Mad Dogs @ 25
I think the liberal blogosphere is very much the natural media outgrowth of the progressive grassroots “people-powered” movement. It doesn’t have nearly the reach of the corporate media, although its influence *is* disproportionate to the size of its audience.
Partly because of the influential and activist nature of said audience, and partly because of the pressure it exerts on the media. Not as much as the Wurlitzer, but it does nudge the narrative every once in a while (Lott, Plame, US Attorneys).
Eli @ 19
We could have registered more displeasure with Clinto when he pushed the Telecoms Act in, I think 96. But he’d already screwed people by doing away with welfare and championing the passage of NAFTA, GATT, and the WTO, all things very detrimental to Americans as well as the workers in places where corporations move to.
This is a bipartisan screwing we are enduring, a complete Dem-GOP fed BOHICA of massive proportions. There are very few people in congress who have been there since the late 70s who are innocent of what is being done to us.
SnarKassandra @ 10
Almost had Chilean tea coming out my nose there. *g*
We’ve been EPUed! Greetings Omnicient One.
This is the FDL think tank.
Infect the souls of our fellow citizens with hope and a clear vision of a worthwhile tomorrow!
SnarKassandra @ 21
“reality has a well known liberal bias”
stephen colbert
i’ve always said the progs need a media outlet…problem? how to fund it…..
Evil Parallel Universe @ 35
Dang, EPU, Long Time No See…!!!
And I’m off to read with my son.
Night all.
LL, have an absolutely marvelous trip, my friend.
I still miss the Berkeley Barb and Paul Krasner, but then we did not have FDL in the 60’s.
james @ 46
Nite, James!!!
bye james
“Nite James;
Reading to the young ones gets ‘em started well.
Help! Does anyone know the answer to this:
Franklin P. Adams coined the word aptronym to describe a name that is aptly suited to its owner. Which of the following is the most suitable aptronym for a person with an inferiority complex?
A. Mark Kram
B. Lois Steam
C. Donald Trump
well, I think this is OT but does anyone know if anyone has a list or an award or a blog that tracks how well an elected official reflects the will of his or her constituency (other than getting reelected). How responsive they are to their er voters?
Any one following me on this? I mean maybe we can start our own Grassroots Reppie Award or something…just a thought…
Evil Parallel Universe @ 35
Again, my worry is about reach, and our audience pales before the traditional media’s. The balance may be shifting, and I think there’s some cross-transference going on, but there are far too many people whose reality is shaped by the teevee and the radio.
behindthefall @ 33
That just boggles my mind too. It’s like spending the day with your crazy racist uncle. But I think that if you have those kind of atavistic tendencies yourself, and are angry at people looking down on you for them, it must be very refreshing and liberating to listen to someone who tells you they’re totally okay. Patriotic, even.
David W. Bartoo @ 50
Unless the bedtime story is My First Trip to Sylvia’s… ;)
enjoy
David W. Bartoo @ 50
My daddy read to me every night from when I was 6 months old until I was 5. Then my mom or my brother read to me for a few more years.
ok – here is my half-baked idea…. media can and should be a grass roots activity too.
community radio and cable access tv
public radio – the real thing like pacifica, not corporate funded like npr
indy media
blogs *g*
current tv
…. and many more.
media consolidation was a big mistake (thank you clinton), we should be going in the opposite direction. break ‘em up. open access, lower entry costs, etc…. and big corporations (disney, ge, …) have no business in the news business.
The Republicans concentrated on the media in terms of message but they also helped create what we know as the corporate media. Big corps own media corps who call the tune for their employees. The key is not to rock the government’s (i.e. Republicans’) boat because these big corps do not want government rocking their boat. So with very few exceptions, reporters have become superfluous even inimical to their operations. Buffoons, clowns, faces, shills, and stenographers, these are the people who inhabit the positions in our media. They are safe. They are ineffectual.
james @ 46
Good night james, and thanks!
do-si-do @ 54
I’m waiting for Rush to do one of his little songs. Something like, “You can get any M-Fing thing you want, in Sylvia’s M-Fing Restaurant…”
Moyers had a great interview with John Bogel about how our economy has been ruined by greed and the financial sector. Try to read the transcript.
He nails it.
((Waives to LoudounLib from the left coast this week))
I checked the Site-O-Meter this afternoon and we had about 3000 people on. That’s 3000 more than the NYT had reading their newspaper today, since their presses (at least the ones serving NY) broke down.
So, FDL topped the Grey Lady, which is something, I suppose, even if she was a no-show.
And it’ll get better. Anybody added up the unique visitors to the lefty blogs during a 24-hour period and compared it to, say, NYT print readership?
ETeller:
great list! any response from goopers yet other than Miss Perino (I’ve had stronger tap water than that response, but at least it was something?)
selise @ 56
Media consolidation was an unmitigated disaster, although I’m not sure how many of us realized just *how* bad it would be. Plus I suspect the media was pretty well in the tank during the “teflon” Reagan years.
Eli @ 59
Heh, ala Alice’s restaurant…!!!
Eli @ 64
(*I* sure didn’t, anyway, but I was pretty oblivious back then, and not nearly paranoid enough)
Hugh @ 57
Pithy, precise, perfectly priceless.
Hugh is today’s Edward R. No question.
CTuttle @ 65
Yeah, but racist! That’s the twist, you see.
The 9/11 Truth Movement offers Americans the opportunity to determine whether or not their fellow citizens are out of their gord.
behindthefall @ 62
Ugh, you mean that many people read my McCarthy gaffe today?! crap.
is the siteometer a behind the scenes mystical tech thingie, or can we peek too?
(( waves back at petedownunder ))
SnarKassandra @ 55
I have read to my kids at bedtime since they were babies. They called it “snuggletime” and it was a great way to bond, especially when they were able to read the book themselves.
I still remember the first time my youngest realized that she could read every word on the page … her eyes were wide with excitement, then she threw her arms around my neck and shrieked …
In case you haven’t noticed the wheels are coming off a America. We are headed for a huge crash… not only economic, but political.
The fabric of society is ripping apart.
Maybe, after the smoldering ashes cool off something better will arise.
It will be getting worse and worse for the next 4 or 5 years.
It’s can’t be stopped now.
You know, I went over to the Ronald Reagan Library and was amazed to see how many republicans can read! I mean, not one of them was burning a bonfire of Noam Chomsky or anything!
Eli @ 64
During the Reagan years we still had Moyers and Donahue. News was becoming a business instead of a service (to the audience). But now it’s turned to being a service to the owners. Big difference.
Eli @ 68
That I do…..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_7C0QGkiVo
Petrocelli @ 72
Dang, why is somebody always leaving the barn door open…!!! *g*
and the reason why newspapers are losing readers rapidly
With regard to Rush Limbaugh et. al., my modest proposal for several years has been that maybe congress should legalize dueling for about ten years. Of course, we might lose some good people, but I think it might be the end of many a blowhard’s career.
Eli @ 64
A lot of media consolidation took place before there was a blogosphere to chronicle and critique it. Even with the blogosphere, I often feel: so many scandals so little time.
Eli @ 64
yes. but i submit there was already way too much media consolidation before the 1996(?) telecomunications act.
and is there anyway to take government manipulation out of it? everything from VNS to armstrong to cia/intelligence services.
do-si-do @ 74
Yeah, but they move their lips when they read.
CTuttle @ 77
Um … they were hoping you’d leave ?!! *g* … How ya doin’, CT ?
Hugh @ 80
Heh, you oughta know… what # are ya up to now…??? ;-)
do-si-do @ 70
Check out the little Site Meter icon at the bottom of this page. It is open to anyone and shows how a site is doing.
Hugh @ 80
The companion question to “Think what this country would be like without a right-wing corporate media pushing the GOP’s narratives?” is “Think what this country would be like without the liberal blogosphere to counter them?”
CTuttle @ 84
253
Petrocelli @ 83
Touche, I could be doing better, but then again, we all could…!!! ;-)
Eli @ 86
You hit the nail on the head, Eli … CNN Europe is not like CNN in America.
selise @ 81
I think you’re right. Ironically, the BBC is government-owned, yet does a far better job than our own corporate-owned media.
But I just can’t see a Republican government maintaining the necessary wall between political expedience and news content.
Boy oh boy! Do we sound like a ‘hateful’ group tonight?
We can accurately dissect the coming catastrophe and then touch each other’s hearts with loving memory and sincere awe in the act of becoming.
If we have to go to the wall, there are no others I would choose to be with, those I love will be there, even if they are already ‘gone.’
Shouting out “AMEN!!”
David W. Bartoo @ 91
Okay, is it weird for a non-Christian to shout out “AMEN!” to TWO POSTS IN A ROW???
AMEN!!!!!!
Yeay for the blogs!!!!
Well (scratching head) this is a lot of media to control:
From the History of Cable TV with my edits:
Pick a milestone of when the media took a hard turn to the right.
Eli @ 90
Will the DLCer’s maintain the wall…???
CTuttle @ 88
DK might force a vote to impeach Cheney. I think the Blogosphere needs to be united on an issue like this and drive the message that results in thousands of calls to Congress.
Keep the drumbeat strong 24/7 and show the MSM that free speech is more powerful than canned talking points.
Eli @ 90
i think there’s been a lot more effort to control usa media than elsewhere. after all, if you wanted to have the most control over world events – where would you put your $$ into a rightwing messaging machine? the usa or the uk?
Was just checking that Site Meter myself.
And looking at the one of “Recent Visitors By Referrals”.
So, who’s gonna fess up to being referred here by http://search.live.com/results q=plump black women wrestling
CTuttle @ 96
The DLCers would seal the wall up behind the shills the Republicans installed there.
Mad Dogs @ 99
I think I have a pretty strong alibi…
pma @ 79
lmao!
Whenever Billo or some other bobblehead blowhard complains about the Lake or KOS or Media Matters he give us publicity, and demonstrates his fear.
(BTW, I’m fascinated by the search referrals to my blog. I regularly post some of the weirder ones as “Eli’s Obsession With The Google”.
selise @ 98
I find the BBC available here (through the web or on BBCA on DirecTV) to be pretty disappointing. They do give more time to more real stories, but they are hardly likely to do something that would get them banned from the WH presscorps. Witness Greg Palast’s reports that they can watch in Britain, but we won’t see here or even read about on BBC.com.
twȝk @ 102
I’d like to see KO slapping BillO across the face with a glove and saying “Sir! I demand satisfaction!”
LoudounLib @ 106
I’m pretty sure BillO fights dirty.
Eli, ya think? *g*
i get the most referrals to my site from google image searches
12 years ago, I didn’t know hardly anyone who talked like left Blogistan, and I could not find the kinds of information I find on-line, here and elsewhere. So, I think we are under way on new media. But we have to figure out how to increase readership among low-information citizens.
I think also have to find better ways to fund this media. I hate the advertising model, and don’t see how it can work in bringing in new voices. One of the best parts of FDL is the way Jane brings in a steady stream of good sane writers for the front page, in part by watching the commenters.
twȝk @ 102
From the political graveyard, here is a list of some politicians who have particpated in duelling.
LoudounLib @ 106
I think Bill-O and Rush would be like the scene in “Airport” where passengers lined up to slap the hysterical lady. I wouldn’t want to risk Keith, but some of us old timers might be willing to risk a final contribution to civilization.
LoudounLib @ 106
BillO might misunderstand KO and respond with a vigorous Loofah … *g*
LoudounLib @ 106
weapons?
keyboards, paintballs, empty prescription vials?
Eli, my thinking these days has been to give to MoveOn. They seem to have sensible people in charge, and have been doing a wonderful job.
I think that the whole charity issue is a cost that all Americans should bear, not just progressives. It’s called taxes, and the tax system needs to be squared away. MoveOn seems to be the only way out there to embarrass/confront politicians into doing the right thing.
And by the way, why aren’t we helping out the monks?
do-si-do @ 114
Rubber Chickens at 50 paces.
do-si-do — KO’s snarl and then the empty RX bottles on the other side ;-)
Everythingseemssoneat @ 22
Huh?
No shortage of “selfish” in the states. Hell most Americans could care less about how many Iraqi people have died been injured or turned into refugees as a direct result of our invasion of Iraq.
If the US could export “selfish” we could take care of our national debt in a flash.
twȝk @ 102
I suggest we have a battle of the wits…most of them are unarmed, so….
Phule @ 116
bearing falafels and loofahs…
Eli @ 107
Ask him to take a shower first. Billo loves a copious lather, a loofah and a falafel thingy.
do-si-do @ 121
Aw geeze..
It’s going to take at least one more glass of wine to burn that image out of my brain tonight…
Loo Hoo. @ 115
The Republicans seem to think that charity should actually *replace* most government services. Brilliant.
KestrelBrighteyes @ 120
No! I’m still working on my first cup of coffee :)
Petrocelli @ 97
A Privileged Resolution, ain’t it awesome…!!! 8-)
C-Span alert Ike is giving his infamous farewell speech…!!!!!!!!!
Kathleen @ 119
Can’t dig for selfish during the “er” months. Red Tide or something.
Eli @ 124
with a double scoop of theocracy!
Eli @ 90
Ironically, it does much better news reporting than our public media NPR and PBS as well. Regardless of the business model there has to be a real commitment to news reporting and investigation. With a few notable exceptions (Bill Moyers was just on here), I don’t see it in this country.
Kathleen @ 119
And the GOP tells us that that selfishness is perfectly reasonable; honorable, even. And a lot of Americans are very eager to latch onto that message.
Ya say ya want a resolution, well, ya know…we all want to change the world..
Hugh @ 129
I get the impression that the BBC takes its independence *really* seriously. I think that might be as much cultural as structural, if not more so.
KestrelBrighteyes @ 120
You is wicked … funny. You must be careful such humor might cause some of us to die laughing. Hmmm, not such a bad way to go …
There are some who would find your comment insensitive, of course the’y have to ‘get’ it.
GordonM @ 127
How much of muslim dislike for western culture is based on the selfishness of marketing? A projection of western cultural values?
Eli @ 130
Welcome to St Ronnie Ray-gun’s legacy. Where Jimmy Carter tried to force us as a country to live up to our professed ideals, St Ronnie made folks feel good about their hates and prejudices.
Ghouliani’s hates California
Eli @ 130
It’s not framed as Selfishness, it’s now consumerism…! Support the troops, buy something…!!!
dakine01 @ 135
Wear a sweater? Fuck that sissy shit!
KestrelBrighteyes @ 131
LOL!!!
CTuttle @ 137
It goes beyond that. Hatred and fear and cruelty are now packaged as patriotism and resolve.
Eli @ 124
That fits in with my other proposal, that the Iraq Occupation be turned completely into a faith based initiative. No public funding or relationship to the USA. Just turn it over to the fundies and let the keep whatever they can. Now that Falwell’s gone, I guess Dodson would have to play Bohemund.
Oh, and religious piety. Mustn’t forget that.
Using Christianity as a cover for intolerance is a helluva trick, really.
David W. Bartoo @ 133
I’ve been told you can get away with anything if you can say it with a southern accent and a smile..and precede it with “bless their heart”…
(So imagine this typed with a southern accent and a smile)
I’m not saying all of these people on the right are dumb, but bless their hearts, some of them just don’t have the sense God gave a mashed worm…
Eli is on a roll.
Eli @ 132
If you ever watch a British House of Commons’ debate, you’ll know how seriously they take independence and accountability.
David W. Bartoo @ 144
Thanks – we’ve been hitting some of my favorite hobbyhorses tonight…
twȝk @ 134
Interesting question. What do some of us think of marketeers?
ccmask @ 51
I’d love to help you out, cc, but I don’t know what an aptronym is, and I don’t know who Mark Kram or Lois Stream are. Must be C.
KestrelBrighteyes @ 143
You-all is sweet as magnolia honey.
Petrocelli @ 145
Question Time! Can you imagine Dubya doing Question Time? With that quality of questions, too.
Evil Parallel Universe @ 35
And like the right wing corrupted the mass media, they are already seeking to control the internet . . . in cases of some server orgs like MS and AOL, they are already silencing or inhibiting the messaging of the Left Blogs-aka TruthOut’s issues with their emailings being held back or rerouted, etc.
The attempts of the big biz music industry to enforce unpayable fees to stream online and attempts to privitize the internet in general are further evidence that our newfound medium of communication is ALREADY under great threat.
Ever vigilant . . . .
Great Post Eli . . . thanks so much.
OT but a little good news, From CNN the little girl that was on tape being molested has been found and is OK.
Eli @ 150
He can’t do question time in a first grade room.
GordonM @ 147
lol, funny.
Well Eli, you shore is riding well tonight, bareback and two at a time. AWEsome!!!
Eli @ 150
I’m laughing really hard just thinking about it !
dakine01 @ 152
Would have been even better if she hadn’t been molested in the first place, of course. Sounds horrible.
behindthefall @ 33
Electronic media, radio/tv are all about ratings. Sensationalism sells, it’s the second oldest profession, with politics being the third.
Having said that, I take it you don’t listen to the plethora of more enlilghtened talk radio such as Air America, SOME of Pacifica Radio (they’ve fallen SO far howevery) and any number of community based radio stations across the nation who research, report and host call in’s?
Hugh @ 129
Yup, the model here is “Flash and Trash to get the Cash” to satiate the dull palates of the Mc Junkfood munchers.
It often amazes me how effective our Media culture is at training its audience to salivate at the sights and sounds of garbage.
SnarKassandra @ 153
That’s ’cause our childrens is learning more than he ever could!
Petrocelli @ 156
If he had to put his petulance and incoherence on display like that on a regular basis, I don’t think he could have ever gotten re-elected. It would have been like the first Kerry debate over and over again.
David W. Bartoo @ 149
Now David, ya have ta get the proper inflection in there. It’s Y’all’s sweet as magnolia honey.
And the plural is All y’all.
People, I’ve read every comment, and sadly, nobody here really seems to get it. It is not that the Rethugs are selfish, though they are. The real point of the matter is that they do not feel any need to be fair on any issue whatsoever. Their only goal in any conflict is to win, and if they can do so unfairly, they derive even greater satisfaction from it. We progressives, meanwhile, always hamstring ourselves by our insistence on fighting fair and being “reasonable.” People, if you fight fair while your opponent keeps fighting dirty, the dirty fighter will win every time.
Frankly, I have no patience for those who say they would rather die while fighting fair than win by fighting dirty. We are no longer operating in a civilized environment, and until we defeat the enemy, there will be no civilized environment to operate in.
Logically, that means that if we are ever to have any power to do good in the future, we need to drop our scruples about how we fight. All’s fair in love and war, and this is war. We need to aim all attacks at the groin and the jugular, no matter how ugly that is. Because a future dominated by people whose very creed is to enhance unfairness will be uglier than that, and uglier than anything we gentle folk even dare to imagine. Think Nazi Germany, for easy reference.
For starters, when a rightie on TV starts to use their favorite tactic of talking over, in a loud voice, the reasonable point being made by the liberal on the panel, the liberal should immediately shout, “Shut the fuck up, pigface, you had your turn, now it’s my turn. Were you raised in a mother-fucking barn, you Nazi bastard.” And don’t apoligize for it. Tell anyone who demands an apology to go fuck themselves. Think of the effect it would have. It’s like the old days, when a supposedly weak Jew would finally stand up and kick the shit out of an anti-Semitic bully. Now, nobody fucks with Israel, unless they can use a sneak attack. The right takes it for granted that they can bully the left, and that the left will never get nasty. But the right gets nasty every day, it is the essence of their modus operandi. And the masses respond to it.
Call every non-serving Rethug a draft dodger and a coward. Let them prove you wrong. Accuse them of being sexual perverts. Let them prove you wrong. Accuse them of being in the game for power so they can steal tax money. Let them prove you wrong. There are endless variations on this theme available. Get them used to being on the defensive, like we are used to being on the defensive.
There is no other realistic way to reverse the balance of power. Once it is reversed, then we can afford the luxury of letting our civilixed selves re-emerge to use our power in the way that good progressives should. But let’s stop bringing a knife to a gunfight. Man, I’m tired of losing that battle.
Eli @ 157
Too true. Unfortunately there are still a lot of sick f*cks out there
ccmask @ 51
A is a lowly palindrome. C is just a jackass. So the answer must be B.
Eli @ 150
Sh*t, he would’ve received a no confidence vote from Parliament after the first session of Question Time, ahs well, too bad…!!!
Petrocelli @ 72
Good daddy. I still remember reading to my dad when I was very young and him making a great big deal out of the fact that I could read the word surprise. He said that I was entirely too young to be able to read such a big word!
How old is the girl? Did she get kidnapped? Why did they make a tape?
I don’t know when the media takover actually occurred, but it first became apparent to me during the Lewinski situation. All of the supposed left wing reporters were amazed and outraged that public opition polls didn’t require lynching Clinton.
I’d like to make a few comments:
1.) I’m not sure the Dem’s had this wrong. A few people have already addressed this. Look at the Internet. Now, I’m biased toward progressive posts, but the whole thing is pretty liberal right now. Maybe that’s a function of the current Admin., but still, it’s a way to get a voice out. Dem. candidates were at the KOS convention! Whether you agree with him or not, I think Howard Dean knew this four years ago. He raised a shitload of money over the Internet, enough to compete with corporate Bush. That’s amazing considering that Dem’s represent ‘the poor’. So, to tie this ramble together, perhaps the Democrats took the long view. They couldn’t have foreseen the Internet 30 years ago, but here we are. Of course, to be completely honest, we all have to thank Bush and Limbaugh for this too.
2.) Why can’t we start a movement? Right here, right now? I am personally fed up with our government (I’m reserving judgment on the Judicial Branch, but the other two…fuck ‘em). Why can’t we start a web-site or forum or something that rather than contacting representatives, it engages them? Isn’t that the next logical step? And yes this would be lobbying, but constructive grass roots lobbying built on the ideas and suggestions of a broad demographic. Am I missing something? Is something like this already out there? I’m not talking about MoveOn.org. I’m talking about covering the broad political spectrum. Equality, Health Care, Foreign Diplomacy, NOT militarily attacking Iran, Impeaching the entire Administration etc. etc. etc. Could we implement this? Could we take the next ‘grass roots’ step and actually have a complete Democracy? A computer in every home? Wireless for everyone? We now live in an age where every single person in America could have a voice. FDR’s dream (…or maybe not!)
3.) I’m serious. We can do this now. Does anyone else feel so frustrated and marginalized that it seems like we sit on the sidelines and watch America be flushed down the toilet? Or is this a pipedream? Let’s do it! I’d love to hear comments/criticism on this, on why this is a bad idea. Democracy (regardless of party): For the People, By the People. It don’t seem so stupids now!
4.) I could bloviate for hours on this, but I have to go shove a firecracker up a frog’s ass and blow it up. Peace, Love, Dove.
Chauncey
Change opition to read opinion.
SanderO @ 73
Na. People are waking up. Abruptly if they’re not careful!
Eli @ 161
I still shake my head that Gore lost to him, despite his hilarious responses in the debates … Gore should have won by a 3-1 margin.
Thanks for writing this, Eli.
Another thing that happened was that, in the wake of their disillusionment with LBJ over Vietnam, many lefties forsook electoral politics for issues advocacy, whereas the righties intensified their involvement with electoral politics.
This has hurt both the political and do-gooder aims of the left, in this way: Whatever lefties spend on good works is very likely to be undone by righty political moves. (Collecting funds to build schools in Central America seems somewhat futile when righty foreign policy moves entail funding the fascist death squads that will burn down those schools and kill the kids inside them.)
That’s why, rather than donate $32 billion to charity, Bill Gates and Warren Buffett would have done better to give about $2 billion of it to people like Russ Feingold, Howard Dean and the rest of the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party ($2 billion used properly ought to help grow a few more good Dems), and use the rest to found and fund a genuinely progressive TV and radio empire.
Loo Hoo. @ 166
I remember my dad reading Fear & Loathing In Las Vegas to me as a kid. “My attorney had taken his shirt off and was pouring beer on his chest, to facilitate the tanning process” is one of the greatest sentences in literary history.
Okay, at the risk of revealing my geek status – Stargate Atlantis is on, and Amanda Tapping is supposed to join the series tonight. She is AWESOME!!
So I hate to leave good company, but..
I’ll check in later. Y’all have a great evening.
dakine01 @ 162
I’m jus’ a pore ole Connecticut Yankee, embarrassed by the fact that you-know-who was
birthed there, even has mah mittle ‘nitial and what that pore thang has suffered don’t bear thinkin’ on, the ‘nitial. I mean. But I’m tryin’ honest I yam …
Eli @ 142
RU kidding? Christianity and intolerance are like peas and carrots. While it depends on what you call intolerance, Christianity demonstrates considerable intolerance toward – atheists, j*ws, muslims, gays, hindus, buddhists, pagans, cohabitation, childbirth outside of marriage, birth control, science, evolution, history, hippies, alcoholism, drug use, alternative lifestyles, and more.
SnarKassandra @ 167
They aren’t giving out much info. The authorities had published her picture after not being able to find her on their own. I read in one story that they thought she was about five and that the tape they had was a year or two old. The CNN story says the suspect/”person of interest” is being searched for and they think he may have been an adult entrusted with her care at some point but is not the girl’s father.
Loo Hoo. @ 148
I think it’s C also. An aptronym is a nae that is aptly suited to its owner. Me & my son were filling out a contest for a college grant and it had us stumped.
I remember my dad reading Fear & Loathing In Las Vegas to me as a kid.
Now that’s some parenting skills!!
Sorry, but I think Bob Parry misses the forest for the trees. When we had the Fairness Doctrine, progressives didn’t need a media machine. As long as the big media were required to air both sides, the progressive message dominated naturally. In a fair forum, our ideas sell themselves.
We would still dominate the media no matter how many Fox News hacks and shock jocks the neanderthals mustered if Reagan hadn’t eliminated the Fairness Doctrine. Fascists can only sell their lies when they can silence the other side.
Reading Al Gore’s book Assault on Reason this month a big point jumped out at me. When radio emerged as the first mass media before WWII, the United States immediately regulated it. The Germans and Italians did not. Sounds to me like mass media leads to domination by fascist propaganda unless it’s regulated.
ccmask @ 179
In that case, it has to be b., low esteem.
GordonM @ 105
Greg Palast’s reports on the BBC? Got links?
Chauncey Baker @ 169
There was some bill somewhere saying that text of legislation, amendments etc. should be posted beforehand (instead of Thomas’s catching up later).
If that can or has happened, we can be a bit more proactive (shudder, I hate that word) in contacting our reps. And if there were a website that gathered votes / reactions that the pols could check (rather than reading all that email)… maybe something might catch on.
jayt @ 180
Bad craziness!
Chauncey Baker @ 169
1) Like I said, I don’t think it was so much a matter of wrong, so much as doing what they felt they had to do. But I think the rise of the internet and consequent democratization of media was a wholly unforeseen godsend.
2 & 3) I think we’re all frustrated as hell, but the sad fact is that unless and until we have enough money and power as the corporations, roughly half of our Congresscritters will answer to the big money and not give a shit about us. Building a third party would take decades and might not even be possible. So our only option is to try to develop leverage on the Democratic Party, which is an imperfect vessel at best.
Phoenix Woman @ 173
Absolutely. If we have a progressive, or even objective media, we’re a lot more likely to have a progressive government, or at least not a hard-right one. Meaning we don’t have to spend all of our time, money and energy fighting fires.
hackworth @ 177
Not being a religious person, I was wondering the other day, does the bible say anywhere in it to go to church and listen to the priest?
Chauncey Baker @ 169
I like your ideas and am so glad you finished on a high note. :)
twȝk @ 187
I think that’s just what people’s moms say.
lightly @ 181
The great ‘communicator’ left his crummy paw prints for sure.
Your point is well taken and suggests a part of the solution, as I’ve said before. But that requires a certain amount of ’spine’ and a professional FCC.
twȝk @ 187
The bible says anything you want it to say, just like the Koran.
hackworth @ 177
Christianity the religion/institution is intolerant as hell, I agree – especially at its more fundamentalist extremes. But Jesus’s actual message is all *about* tolerance.
I am perpetually amazed at how so many Christians are capable of completely blotting out or distorting the New Testament.
(I’m an atheist, but I do think the New Testament’s basic message is a good one)
lightly @ 181
Seems like most things fall into this. Media, religion, corporations, this administration.
ccmask @ 179
NO! I wasn’t kidding – it’s B.
Lois Steam. Lo issteam. Low esteem.
Jeez, where’s punaise when he could be useful!
rats – I can’t get it to work
(tech ignoramous here)
Twain @ 188
Seconded! #2 is the question of the moment.
Timeliness counts!
One other Bible irony: The New Testament explicitly warned about the religious right, who fit the Pharisees’ description to a T, and none of them ever seem to notice…
SnarKassandra @ 189
I just completed the thought, Cas ! *g*
twȝk @ 134
I don’t think being selfish is either American or western. Lots and lots of selfish people the world over. Selfish knows no region, country, language or religion
What happened to my fucking comment? Was I censored again, just for pointing out that when you are in a fight with a dirty fighter who delights in being unfair, you better adopt the same tactics until you restore the power balance? If y’all don’t understand that fundamental truth, just go back to masturbating yourselves. We are perceived as weak, because we act weak. The public will only respond to perceived strength. They don’t care who wins by fighting dirty, they will back the winner every time. The Rethugs know that, and that is how they are killing us. Heckuva job, Moderator!
Mod note: Calm down and hard refresh your entire page. It is there.
You are welcome.
Eli @ 192
I’m not real sure what I am but decided a number of years ago that six or seven of the ten commandments were pretty good (not too sure about the Honor thy Dog thing, no graven image, and keep the sabbath holy) and that the Golden rule and Beatitudes could be said to be divinely inspired but beyond that with the bible and religion? Eh, not so much.
say, are y’all still talkin’ southern and proposin’ duels?
did anyone say banjos?
Eli @ 197
I think Biden tried to point that out the last debate.
dakine01 @ 200
Oh, I’m not fond of the Old Testament at all. It’s authoritarian and unforgiving and sadistic, like certain political parties I can think of.
twȝk @ 202
what did he say?
twȝk @ 202
Really? Excellent. Too bad I still can’t stand him…
Eli @ 186
Yes but, power is not necessarily the same thing as money. It is only the same during times of relative complancency.
FDR was a rich man, but 99% of the money in this country was against him. And a huge number of very broke people were for him.
Eli @ 198
Yeah. Moreover, the two clearest statements in the New Testiment have to do with rendering unto Caesar that which is his, and with praying alone rather than in public. Somehow they don’t want to take those literally.
Eli @ 192
But Jesus’s actual message is all *about* tolerance.
I am perpetually amazed at how so many Christians are capable of completely blotting out or distorting the New Testament.
(I’m an atheist, but I do think the New Testament’s basic message is a good one)
You would better state your POV by stating that Jesus’ basic message is a good one. The New Testament has a lot of wacky stuff in it, too. For example (according to Hitchens) there is no mention of hell in the old testament. Hell doesn’t show up until the New testament.
Now, Hell scares the hell out of children and old people. Instilling fear and guilt in gullible people is not healthy.
Loo Hoo. @ 199
True but doesn’t consumption based media project and amplify that message further?
twȝk @ 203
really? I’ll check that out.
I’ve been thinking pharisees for a long time. time to throw the vendors out of the temple.
New contract awarded yesterday:
http://www.defenselink.mil/con…..actid=3614Presidential Airways, Inc., an aviation Worldwide Services company (d/b/a Blackwater Aviation), Moyock, N.C., is being awarded an indefinite delivery/indefinite quantity (IDIQ) type contract for $92,000,000.00. The contractor is to provide all fixed-wing aircraft, personnel, equipment, tools, material, maintenance and supervision necessary to perform passenger, cargo and combi Short Take-Off and Landing air transportation services between locations in the Area of Responsibility of Afghanistan, Kyrgyzstan, Pakistan and Uzbekistan. This contract was competitively procured and two timely offers were received. The performance period is from 1 October 2007 to 30 September 2011. The United States Transportation Command
do-si-do @ 201
love that one!
Game over. The Yankees win. THHHHHHUUUUUUUUUUHHH YANKEEEES WIN!
Boston won earlier in the day, and so, their magic number remains 1, as we head into the last game of the season.
OOOOPS — I wrote that to post the moment it was true. The Yankees needed one more strike. Instead, Mariano gave up a three run triple, and now the game is tied, and heading toward extra innings in Baltimore.
GordonM @ 194
Oh damn. We got that wrong. Low esteem, indeed!
Eli @ 203
David promising the Lord 20,000 foreskins kind of sealed it for me.
GordonM @ 206
True. As long as money is the most effective way to deliver votes, money is political power. If we had viable public election financing (never happen as long as incumbents are the ones voting), that would reduce the power of money.
If a majority of voters became immune to the media barrages money can buy and instead voted based on actual policies and character, that would also reduce the power of money.
GordonM @ 215
The kind of foreskin that makes Jewish boys Jewish?
GordonM @ 216
SnarKassandra @ 218
20% off.
SnarKassandra @ 204
Well, I’m no good with most things bible related but timmeth asked each contestant what their favorite bible verser was. Biden said something like Pharisees. I could be very wrong because I just don’t know the stuff.
GordonM @ 215
God actually *bragging* to Moses about all the cool plagues He had in store for the Egyptians sealed it for me.
found it courtesy NYT
BigMitch @ 213
Thanks Mitch, just turned that game on. Don’t worry too much though — the O’s don’t have much of a bullpen.
ccmask @ 219
Has everyone heard the one about the retired mohel who saved all the foreskins he removed, and took them to a leathersmith and asked him to make him something really special?
Eli @ 203
Sorry you feel this way. The fundamental message of the Hebrew Bible is not authoritarian, nor unforgiving, nor sadistic. Au contraire.
pma @ 219
Yes, but it allowed Joseph Heller, with King David as the narrator in “God Knows”, saying that,…”after about the tenth one, we found out it was easier to kill them first.”
do-si-do @ 222
Good on Biden for that one.
BigMitch @ 214
Just a bit premature, Payton cleared the bases… 8-)
Eli @ 203
Well I mostly agree about the old testament. Pretty much the words of old men interpreted by other old men (and the same for most of teh new testament as well. But you have to admit:
Don’t kill
Don’t Steal
Don’t Lie
Don’t be jealous
Honor the Old folks and parents
Are a pretty good start to a moral code…
hackworth @ 208
Well said I’m with you all the way. Atheists
(a poor term, atheists are not ‘ungodly’ they are just free of certain assumptions) are the most human people I know. Of course, I’m prejudiced.
do-si-do @ 210
Yeah, I always think “taking the lords name in vain” whenever I hear those tv boozos.
hackworth @ 208
There are 4 or 5 different words all translated into “hell”. They occur much more often in the old testament. If you go back through earlier translations, only one of those words resembles what modern fundamentalists mean by “hell” – and it refers to a valley where tribal enemies of the jews were burned up in a fire (presumabley, a forest fire). The most widely used word currently translated to “hell” more likely translates to “nothingness”.
Eli @ 224
A wallet. When you rub it it turns into a valise.
Toby Martin @ 163:
Yer on it like Sugar Hill Gang On Apache.
Bravo!
BigMitch @ 225
I must be missing something, then. I’m sure there’s plenty of positive stuff, buI see all kinds of cruel episodes in the OT. Yet I see no compassion gap between Jews and Christians.
Actually I think the question about Bible verses is cheesy but it was interesting what each candidate chose to emphasize.
I’d like to emphasize to Bush that God promised to spare the sinners of Sodom if he found only forty innocent people (paraphrasing), meaning that even though we see “evil” lurking in Iraq, it might be worth sparing so that innocent lives are not lost?…
It’s interesting that timmeh asked for ‘BIBLE VERSE’ given that a. obama is muslim and b. many christians are not chapter and versers like the baptists and evangelists who are scripture heavy and usually bible literalists.
and yes, I’m grossly generalizing.
ccmask @ 211
Whoa! We’ve hired Blackwater to pilot our Ospreys? Dayam! Maybe “military intelligence” isn’t an oxymoron!
Eli @ 221
Sounds like you’d like Twain’s Letters from Earth!
Oh, I’m not fond of the Old Testament at all. It’s authoritarian and unforgiving and sadistic, like certain political parties I can think of.
touching the skin of a dead pig – death by stoning.
working on the Sabbath – ditto.
And there lies the reason that professional football never much took hold during those times.
twȝk @ 238
I sure like his essay on German…
Hope I am not repeating something FDL has all ready covered but who knows anything about this
http://www.thewashingtonnote.c…..002383.php
John Bolton lobbying against the Bush administration signing onto the “Law of the Sea”
“I’ve just learned that John Bolton is meeting with conservative senators, urging them to oppose the Law of the Sea. A Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing on the convention is scheduled for Thursday.
This is a wake-up call to progressives, moderates, and old-school conservatives: joining the Law of the Sea is absolutely critical to restoring the American tradition of responsible, multilateral global engagement. If you haven’t done it yet, call your senators today.
If any TWN readers are real gluttons for punishment and want to study the Law of the Sea in great, great, great detail, download the 124-page briefing book here. Otherwise, see past posts here and here.
I wonder if Bolton’s recent activity is more damaging to Bolton or to the Convention. Either way, I’m not too worried.
– Scott Paul”
Law of the Sea
http://www.newsday.com/news/op…..4204.story
do-si-do @ 237
Sorry, but Obama is not Muslim. That’s a rightwing story, based on a weird reading his his childhood. He belongs to a UCC church in Chicago.
And this is not a slam on the Islamic faith — simply a statement of Obama’s faith tradition.
golden rule says it all….do unto others as you would have them do unto you!! enough said imo
I always find it interesting that Bible thumpers say A & E were tossed out for eating from tree of knowledge. Actually it was because it was feared that they would eat from the tree of immortality. Think corporate ‘persons.’
http://rawstory.com//news/2007….._0928.html
Kucinich ’seriously thinking’ about forcing vote on Cheney impeachment
Nick Juliano
Published: Friday September 28, 2007
jayt @ 239
toby martin @ 163
David W. Bartoo @ 244
Why are we supposed to care about what happened to them 6000 yrs ago? Doesn’t it matter more what we do?
do-si-do @ 236
In the Abraham story, he argues with the Almighty, getting him to agree to save Sodom and Gamorrah if there are 40, and then 30, and so on until he gets to 10 innocents. Noah — 40 generations earlier — did not argue with God when told that God intended to destroy the world. Thus, it says, Noah was “righteous in his generation.” but not compared to Abraham.
My point is that the authoratarian rap on the Hebrew Bible is a bum rap.
Eli @ 240
I’ll read it.
Another great post, Eli !!!
Have a great weekend, everyone !!!
From Luke 18:
The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector
9To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10″Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood up and prayed about[a] himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
13″But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
14″I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
And yes, the “what’s your favorite bible verse” was a cheesy question. Russert was (a) trying to catch Democrats as non-bible readers, or (b) reducing “faith and values” to a meaningless soundbite.
If you want to talk faith and values, let’s talk about children and health care.
If you want to talk about faith and values, let’s talk about spending $20 billion a week on a war in Iraq.
If you want to talk about faith and values, let’s talk about locking people up without an avenue for challenging one’s detention.
Timmeh’s “faith and values” question was nothing but a trap to see who had or had not read the Bible, or a poor attempt at reducing faith and values to a fundamentalistic vision of who can quote better verse of scripture.
Big Russ would not be amused.
Peterr @ 252
So did they all practice for that question?
Petrocelli @ 253
Ah, ya won’t be around later…??? Aloha Oe!!!
hackworth @ 246
The thing is, there are lots of parts of the OT that even the fundiest fundies pretty much disregard. Religions are largely defined by which parts of their texts they choose to emphasize and de-emphasize. Fundie Christians choose to emphasize the most intolerant parts of the OT to justify their own intolerance, and they ignore everything else, except to pay it lip service to make themselves sound virtuous.
There was a fatal error in the “think globally, act locally” setup. It was the assumption that grassroots organizers, the people fighting poverty, for the environment, and such didn’t need or deserve a living wage for the work they were doing. This set up a cycle where bright-eyed young people came to work for progressive organizations and became either completely burnt out or turned to cynically exploiting the “fresh meat” that graduated every year, wanting to do good. Progressive orgs came to be inhabited largely by trustifarians and crazy people.
The idea that wanting to live in a safe neighborhood, have health insurance, be able to take a vacation, and not eat ramen noodles every night was “selling out” cut off involvement in the activist movement from the people who should have been its lifeblood.
juslin @ 245
Bush goes by the Rule of Gold…Do unto others before they do unto you.
It is pre-emptive kind of thing.
Peterr @ 255
I wish someone had used their entire time quoting who begat whom.
juslin @ 243
The Jewish formulation is slightly different. “Don’t do to anyone else, what you would consider spiteful if done to you. All the rest is commentary. Now go and study.” According to Rabbi Hillel (first century, C.E.) who was challenged to teach all of the Torah (law) to a non-Jew while the latter stood on one foot.
SnarKassandra @ 255
If they didn’t, they should have. Any political consultant worth his/her beans should have known that something like it was coming.
SnarKassandra @ 247
pma @ 258
Excellent comments – both.
Mme Racine @ 257
Yes, and Parry covers this. I think it’s an outgrowth of the idea that all possible resources must be used to fight for the good causes, and to spend money on anything else would be wasteful. And of course, everyone is dedicated to the cause, so they don’t mind working for squat, they know it’s all for the common good…
Well, I see your point but just in my own defense that I’m not totally out there: Obama’s dad was muslim, although an “absentee” dad as O described him, and he did attend a muslim school (much like kids today attend Catholic even if they are not catholic, so I get your point)
Anyway, any training from moms and dads on right and wrong is a good thing.
and yeah, how about some health care for our kids? sorry kids, gotta buy more toys for my GI Joes.
I guess I’ll hit the rack. I normally lurk, but enjoyed the conversation. Have a good evening, all.
…uh, Mitch? There seems to be a little problem in Baltimore.
pma @ 261
They each only had ten seconds! LOL.
Game over. Orioles win. Red Sox win the American League East pennant. There is no God.
pma @ 266
Thanks for joining in, pma. I’m always honored when someone “delurks” to join the conversation.
Thuuuh Yankees lose!!! 8-)
BigMitch @ 269
Eh, it’s more bragging rights than anything else. They’re still in the playoffs, which I think is more than we can say for the Mets.
BigMitch @ 261
If each and every one of us would apply these golden rules in our lives the whole world would change immediately.
BigMitch @ 271
For whom??? 8-)
I don’t think the “mighty wurlitzer” or “echo chamber” model would work for progressives, since it depends on decades long deployment of a very disciplined crew of progadandists who will repeat the talking point of the day mindlessly, and viciously defend and attack regardless of the truth. It wouldn’t work for progressive, or liberals, or moderates, independents or even respectable conservatives. It would only work for the most callous, hypocritical, and authoritarian reactionaries. Unfortunately, that is the type of people who have been behind it in the US.
Eli @ 263
Yes and Yes. Truth is truth!
CTuttle @ 272
Heh!
From a new translation of a fragment found in the dead sea scrolls:
“And Abe said, “God, if there be found 20 righteous souls in the City of New York, will you let the Yankees, win ….”
BigMitch @ 270
Sure there is!!
And she’s evening out all them years of The Curse!!!
*G*
do-si-do @ 266
Lots of urban legends are flying around about Obama, including the role of his father’s faith. Snopes does a good smackdown of the wingnut’s (supposed) smears.
wesgpc @ 275
But what if we had comparable volume and reach, even without the same unity? It might not be quite as powerful, but it would be compelling, and I expect is would be pretty unified on the really clearcut stuff.
pma @ 265
Good night thanks for hanging out with us.
Peterr @ 280
Dude, he was totally educated in a madrassa, just like one of them al Qaeda guys.
larue @ 281
LOL!
Tip your cocktail waitress on the way out…
sob sob my mets have tanked……
thanks Peterr!
Kathleen @ 275
Ifififififififififififif. But the bad guys are killing us by living according to the opposite of the Golden Rule, and until we change our tactics, we wil continue to be irrelevant and helpless victims. Perhaps we deserve to be, since everybody here seems so soft. Nice dinner company, but lousy comrades-in-arms. When I’m in a fight, I want a fighter to have my back, not a coat-holder. Sorry if I’ve shocked anybody, I’ll leave now and you can all go back to Bible study.
CT – so it was an ex-Soxer who kept the O’s going?
BM – does the Lord not work in mysterious ways?
Only ten seconds for the Bible verse? OK. Then I would like to have heard one of them say
Matthew 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That
a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven
juslin @ 285
It really is an epic choke. Like, historically epic. I’m wondering if this is going to cost Willie his job – I like him, but it probably should.
BigMitch @ 279
I was taught long ago, by a scholar of the Torah, that God was on the side of the poor and oppressed.
For that reason alone, it strikes me that God is not a Yankees fan. A fan of the Chicago Cubs, on the other hand, seems fairly likely, They don’t get more poor and oppressed than the Cubs.
wesgpc @ 288
“I’m paraphrasing here, but I believe it was Jesus who said, ‘Be excellent to each other.’”
David W. Bartoo @ 261
I think the Hebrew Bible provides a very good set of instructions for how a people can survive through the millenia. That it has worked so well for the people to whom it was revealed is nothing short of miraculous. Of course, I am speaking metaphorically. But it is important to recall that the commandments of the Hebrew Bible were not addressed to a person: they were addressed to a people.
Peterr @ 289
that makes sense
Right wing message consistency is a two edged sword–they use the discipline to reinforce their authoritarian followers (that is, sheep) and influence others, but they do not get to switch back.
Example: “Stay the course.” Dems ran “stay the course” down the Reps throats in 2006 and can do it again in 2008.
Eli @ 293
It’s the Golden Rule, not the Silver Spoon.
Religion and base-a-balla …
Knockin, em right (?) out to heaven’s door.
If this ain’t an all-American crowd, I don’t know what is.
albert fall @ 294
Heh. Dubai Ports World was fun.
Eli @ 293
Yeah, but then there was also that whole turning over the tables of the money changers episode, where some allege Jesus said “What kind of f****** is this?”
Or they could summarize the parable of the Great Banquet:
Slave to Master: The swells you invited have better things to do.
Master: OK, forget them. Go out and get everybody else, everybody from all over. They’re invited.
That’s from Matthew, what… ?
Internet has a verson from Gospel of Thomas
verse 64:
… The slave returned and said to his master, ‘Those whom you invited [the righteous] to dinner have asked to be excused.’
The master said to his slave, ‘Go out on the streets and bring back whomever you find to have dinner.’ Buyers and merchants [will] not
enter the places of my Father.”
Eli, thanks for another excellent post. See ya ’round here when I return from across the pond!
Heh.
Thanks, LL! Have fun!
g’evening all
GordonM @ 290
Wasn’t Bradford an ex-Yankee reliever, too!!!
CTuttle @ 304
Ex-Met.
hi Suz!
BigMitch @ 291
Big Mitch, forgive my ignorance; How large a role does the ‘hereafter’ as in ‘heavenly mansions’ play in your religion?
Suzanne @ 306
Bonne Soir, Ma Cheri!!!
Suzanne @ 306
Narry a ripple. Hullooooo Suzanne!
hiya suzanne!
David W. Bartoo @ 246
I am not into bible/church, but they were tossed out because of eating from the tree of knowledge. In the East, they say that it is the mind which makes you miserable. Knowledge here means to see the world as divided, as differentiated. The differentiated is what can be known. Hence, this applies not only to Adam and Eve. This is the story of everyone – Zen says, the emptiness of the mind is more peaceful.
CUBS WIN !!!!!!!
At least another week before I will be crushed yet again . . . but then again, maybe not.
Peterr @ 298
707!
Eli @ 291
LOL
re: liklihood of rich man entering the Kingdom of heaven vs. a camel through the eye of a needle — first, your friendly joke historian, reminds you of the play, Beyond the Fringe, in which a coal miner complains about all the violence in the bible “like that bit about the needle in the eye of a camel.” Second, the “eye of a needle,” is an opening in the walls of the city that was so narrow, by design, that it prevented Arab marauders from entering on camels. Similar doors were built on churchs.
There was a bank failure, Netbank. I hear that nothing was heard about it on the evening news? Has it been mentioned here?
Suzanne @ 306
suz!
where’s my motherfucking ice tea?
RevDeb @ 315
Howza about a Red Sox, Cubbie WS… I’ll send ya’ll a pet goat…!!! ;-)
do-si-do @ 319
I love this place *g*
CTuttle @ 320
Signs of the last days . . .
BigMitch @ 314
I always think of this SNL sketch…
Eli @ 294
And the crowd answered “party on, dude!”
tossing do-si-do a bar of soap
it’s motherfucking self service ’round here
CTuttle @ 320
the only one who gives a sh*t about pet goats is the Chimperor.
mulligatawny @ 310
I think if you carefully read the whole story you will discover that what I said is so.
It would take only a few minutes. I was much influenced by Zen and take your point, but look and see what you might find, it surprised me.
David W. Bartoo @ 307
Approximately zero. I have never heard a rabbi talk about the hereafter except in an obviously metaphorical way, and only very very rarely like that.
Eli @ 283
You have a point. If the point of your post was that liberals and “lefties” could or should have done what the reactionaries did, but made a mistake by not doing so, I wanted to place a mild dissent. I agree that there was no response at all to the reactionary noise machine for too long, but I don’t think what they do is a good model. I am not sure what would be a good model in terms of media.
I think only approach that would be effective in long run, and that would perserve the progressive element of popular government, would be something like Jefferson’s advice to encourage active political grassroots citizen participation in actual governing from the very local level on up to national. His “republic of wards” idea.
Of course, that might have been difficult in the 60s and 70s, since some bad things would have happened in a lot of local levels all over the country -racism for one. Maybe things have changed enough around the country now for the “republic of wards” idea to be a feasible model.
RevDeb @ 326
Perhaps, but on the eve of the Libby verdict, an exasperated commenter named litigatormom said she was going to go home to sacrifice a goat.
The next day, Scooter was found guilty.
I’m not saying there was a connection, but I’m not saying there wasn’t a connection either.
*G*
RevDeb @ 326
*gasp* Ya wouldn’t denigrate his sole tome for his Library would ya??? :P
In the beginning, NetBank was the Internet revolution darling whose online-only financial services operation was going to make dinosaurs of traditional banks.
In the end, old-fashioned problems — bad management, questionable investments and poor timing — did it in.
After months of trying to keep itself afloat, Alpharetta-based NetBank was shut down by federal regulators Friday to become Georgia’s largest failed bank ever. Meanwhile, its parent company filed for bankruptcy protection.
Another Internet-only institution, Dutch banking giant ING Direct, will assume $1.5 billion of NetBank’s deposits and those customers will be ING accountholders beginning Monday.
With roughly $2.5 billion in total assets, NetBank is the 58th-largest bank failure in FDIC history in addition to being Georgia’s largest.
The Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. was named receiver by the Office of Thrift Supervision, the bank’s primary regulator. The FDIC is retaining $1.1 billion in assets for later disposition.
wesgpc @ 329
I don’t think it should have been a mirror image of the Republican media machine, and it probably wouldn’t have been. The problem was that there wasn’t *anything*. Just a messaging vacuum where progressives expected traditional media to pick up the slack.
epu!
a sighting…
this thread is blessed
(but you already knew that)
New thread. Too bad, I enjoyed talking about the two passions in my life. Baseball and religion.
BigMitch @ 328
I guessed as much, and consider that a part of your religion’s and your peoples’ success.
Thanks for sharing your religious as well as ‘mundane’ insights, I appreciate them.
Suzanne @ 325
what to do with Suzanne’s soap
BigMitch @ 335
You must *love* the Padres.
Late to the party, but let me say what a fine post this was, Eli. Thank you. Liberals want to solve problems, which for the most part is a very good thing.
Part of the big picture that Eli didn’t discuss was the role of funding. The big liberal foundations, like the Ford Foundation and Rockefeller Foundation, were out trying to solve problems, problems of poverty here and around the world. Others, like the Eli Lilly Foundation and Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, were giving funding for health care research. Conservative foundations, like Olin Foundation and the Bradley Foundation, were giving money to right-wing think tanks, who were crafting the right-wing message, so as media opportunities arose, the message was ready to roll out.
sobbing still – willie will pay for my boyz tanking… only hope maybe a wild card cuz the phils show no sign of tanking ok i’m done
http://www.counterpunch.org/
The Teflon Alliance with Israel
By KATHLEEN and BILL CHRISTISON
Eli @ 338
For the moment, I do. Next week . . . ? We’ll see.
juslin @ 340
you and Pach can sob together.
njprogressive @ 339
Thanks, nj!
I obviously can’t speak for him, but I think Parry might have had the liberal and conservative foundations in mind when he talked about how money and resources got allocated in the 70s.
juslin @ 340
Yep, that’s my sense as well. Phillies are getting some kind of karma payback for 1964.
i can cry ME a river…..
BigMitch @ 328
I think worrying about, or hoping for, a well defined immortal afterlife were Persian and Egyptian things. Mediterranian groups, Jew or gentile, not so much, at least before the exile, or the mystery religions hit Rome.
mets were in 1st place since may…..W T F!!!! i am pissed
toby, if I’m ever on an MSM talking head show, I want to take lessons from you.
hell – I just want to watch you on the shows…
give’em hell
(legally and non-violetly, natch)
kirk murphy @ 349
kirk, thanks for putting toby’s piece up, it is time that ‘nice liberal folks’ wised-up and faced the truth. ‘Turning the other cheek’
gets old fairly quickly and, it accomplishes NOTHING. By itself playing ‘fair’ without learning anything leads neither to ’success’ or even to survival. We are in the most serious fight of our lives, it may well last for the rest of our lives. Hopefully, we may succeed with the non-violent approach we both advocate and practice.
Suzanne @ 325
Quarter jar’s filling nicely.
*G*
Is the MF’ing stuff SWEET Tea? Or some Yankee shit . . . ;-)
(plunk)
ok. now i am leaving. bye till tomorrow.
I just read this post and I have only one thing to say to the question posed:
We help others as we always have and we must
SMASH THE FREAKING WURLITZER!!!!!
I want to say thank you to the moderator for finally allowing my comment #163 to see the light of day, and a much bigger thank you to larue (#236), Kirk Murphy (#349), and David W. Bartoo (350) for picking up on the point I was making and supporting it.
Out of 353 comments posted, only we four seem to understand the need to fight effectively to prevent our own political and philosophical irrelevance. I find it discouraging to the max that 99% of the so-called politically aware and activist posters here have shown themselves to be as fierce as our Democratic Congress.
Do you intend to sit back, sip your lattes, and wait for the 1% to lead you out of the wilderness? Well, let me tell you, we are not enough all by ourselves, we would be roughly as effective as a fart in a blizzard at making a dent in the problem. I suggest you all start taking some hormone shots or something, because if you don’t toughen up, all that is going to be accomplished here is mental masturbation. What good is being well-informed, if you don’t actually change things?
I’m getting old, and have no children, so my investment in the future is limited to my philosophical ideals and sense of justice, but all you younger folks, for whom the future is everything, need to wake up and realize that you will be as insects in the future if the fascist machine is not stopped, and that it may already be too late to get started. The machine doesn’t give a damn about your civilized opinions and arguments. Get tough, or get steamrolled.
twȝk @ 240
The Jewish guys who wrote the bible telling folks that “god” was acting as a real estate agent sealed it for me. What a scam…
And the “chosen people” horseshit took it over the top. Media spin Masters way back then