If the American people have a major reservation about the possibility of a Hillary Clinton Presidency, I suspect it is none of the usual reasons given about what the Republicans might have on “the Clintons” or our readiness to have a woman as President.
Unlike the Republicans, the American people like Bill Clinton; and they can tell Hillary is smart, articulate and capable. That’s partly why she’s the front runner.
And they’ve no doubt observed that countries all over the world have women presidents and prime ministers, and every one of them is obviously smarter and wiser than George Bush and less reckless and duplicitous than Dick Cheney.
No, it seems more likely the reservation is about what she learned from her vote to authorize Bush and Cheney to start a war. That question was front and center in Wednesday night’s Democratic candidates’ debate. And her answer was chilling, because it confirmed everyone’s worst fears about her basic judgment.
When challenged about her Iraq authorization vote, Senator Clinton has repeatedly tried to pin the blame on George Bush — that she had a right to expect him to be honest, to use good judgment, and to exercise good faith in completing the WMD inspections and acting on the facts. In short, Hillary’s defense has been “I trusted Bush to make the right decision, but against my advice, and to my surprise, he deceived all of us and made the wrong decision.” And she has added, “if I had known then . . .” and (paraphrasing) “I would not have made the same judgment as Bush.” Not very satisfying, but she’s stuck to it.
But what about the next war? Senator Edwards framed the most obvious question: Now that we know Bush and Cheney cannot be trusted to tell the truth, or to give peaceful alternatives a chance, or to act with wisdom and due regard for consequences, why would anyone in their right minds approve a resolution that would give Bush and Cheney the idea Congress had enabled them to make any decision regarding possible war with Iran?
Wednesday’s vote on the Lieberman – Kyl resolution, condemning Iran and allowing the designation of its Revolutionary Guards as a “terrorist” entity, was a litmus test for candidates seeking the Presidency. The vote separated the wise from the foolish, and Senator Clinton voted — again — for foolish.
The post debate media spinners gave us the conventional wisdom that candidate X was positioning himself for the primary, while candidate Y was positioning herself for the general election. But the vote on the Iran resolution was not about positioning for the general election, because it was not about what a President Clinton would do, but about what Bush/Cheney might do.
Hillary Clinton expressed the Bush framing about the terrorist nature of Iran’s Revolutionary Guards, but her statements were not relevant to whether it was wise or foolish to vote for the Lieberman – Kyl resolution. That resolution’s relevance is not about what Hillary Clinton would do as President, but about what it enables Bush and Cheney to do without Congressional opposition during their term, not hers.
There is no way to spin Clinton’s vote to blunt what it tells us. Her vote in favor of the resolution was reckless and foolish and exhibited exactly the same flawed judgment — if not opportunism — as her original Iraq authorization vote. Only this time, she has no excuse of claiming she didn’t know Bush’s character.
If this were a Republican candidate, I would see it as a disqualifying event. Why shouldn’t the same apply here, especially when two other Democratic candidates facing similar political pressures — Dodd and Biden — voted for “wise”?



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yo
Indeed.
I also think it’s telling that Obama ducked the vote.
Edwards ‘08!
I am convinced that if she gets elected she will most certainly have to prove she’s got “the right stuff” and will smoke someone’s ass as soon as she can to prove herself. Might be in the ME and it might be in South America. Just like JFK had to prove that the dems were not weak after McCarthy so we took a little trip to Vietnam.
What, everyone’s sleeping in on Friday morning?
This post is correct … Hillary has shown her true colours, and her vote should be held up in front of her face at every possible opportunity. It practically guarantees that she like Bill before her remains republican lite.
I’m in your camp, Scarecrow, with the caveat that if it comes down to Hillary versus whichever Gooper in the general, I have to vote for Hillary.
The Supreme Court is too important, and those judges can hang around a long time.
Scarecrow, you are so right. Deeply flawed reasoning on Clinton’s part.
Time to face the facts. Hillary does not deserve your support. She’s twice shown who she listens to and it’s certainly not the base. She’s always been with Bush and Leiberman all along. Pull the plug now before we all regret.
James Webb may still be blind about Vietnam but he has it correct about Iraq and Iran. We have declared that the army of another nation is a terrorist organization with this vote on the Iranian Revolutionary Guards.
If the Iranian army is a terrorist organization based on this vote, what is our army?
(And no, I am not claiming that the US Army is a terrorist organization. Blackwater? That’s another conversation)
EPU’d:
How about a Sense of the Senate resolution in praise of The First Amendment, which is such a wonderful thing that Americans like Limbaugh is allowed to say (insert quote), that Boehner is allowed to say that soldiers’ lives are cheap, etc., with no fear, because America is a great place, in which any and all are allowed to publicaly be idiots?
p.s Springsteen live on Today show *now*
just did “last to die for a mistake”
sorry for the OT
ifthethunderdontgetya @ 6
Yes, that’s my position as well. I am fully prepared to vote for the lesser of two evils if it comes to it, because I will not give up my vote to despair or anger. Pffft.
Still it will so chap my ass if I have to vote for her :-P
dakine01 @ 9
cool, now I don’t have to mention it!
Regarding Hillary Clinton for president. HRC does not have the ‘character’ I look for in a leader. I am weary of the Senator and her husband, who I voted for twice.
Unfortunately, I think Hillary’s vote on Lieberman-Kyl – and maybe Obama’s lack of a vote – demonstrates a need to placate the A*PAC wing of American politics. That, to me, is just as damning a reason as any for being skeptical about what life would be like under a new American regime predicated on such political “judgment.”
Oklahoma kiddo @ 13
Aren’t you supposed to be in school?
I am not entirely convinced that Hil’s campaign behavior is an accurate predictor of Presidential behavior.
If elected, I would expect her to make expedient political decisions.
Not a good trait in my book, but not nesessarilly what you might expect based on campaigns.
Of all the candidates, I only trust/believe Kucinich (maybe Edwards a little bit too…)
Certainly not Obama.
Standard caveat applies – notwithstanding a miracle where some other party offers a better alternative with a real chance of winning, I will vote for the Democratic candidate
ifthethunderdontgetya ,
The present makeup of the Supreme court is going to be for awhile. Don’t use that to support someone who obviously doesn’t care about your support. Remember Lieberman?
She’s already sold her soul to the neocons or has she always been one.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 13
Which candidate do you like, btw?
Well aware of the one you don’t ;-)
peanutbutter @ 2
Dodd!
Stogo @ 16
Let’s say it comes down to Guiliani and Clinton (my current prediction, alas). You think Guiliani would make any better choices?
I recently found out that people close to him are involved in the effort to split up California’s electoral votes. There’s a LOT going on with people linked to Guiliani that really is disturbing. Maybe we can get a connect the dots post here sometime.
In any case, I’d take Clinton’s picks over Guiliani’s any day.
HRC voted with the camp from whence she came.
It was also interesting to see that BO ducked the vote with a lame excuse.
twȝk @ 18
I like him too! But his snowball makes Edwards’ look like a snowman… :-(
Kucinich is the other tiny snowball as well. I liked him a lot more before his no-to-SCHIP vote.
Thank you Scarecrow for this article. I totally agree and I’d like to send this to a bunch of people who may be voting for HIllary. Here’s my problem: It’s harder for my friends to believe the writings of someone named “Scarecrow”. Do you see my point? I wish you would not be so anonymous…because the points you make are more convincing. These are older people and they vote, but they do not blog or read blogs. Thanks, K. Rapp
raven @ 12
I figured I’d get it out of the way for you up front. :})
peanutbutter @ 18
Of the announced candidates, I’m not really prepared to say. I will say though, it’s not Obama.
does anyone know why Kucinich voted no on SCHIP?
Stogo @ 17
Actually, Justice Kennedy is a far cry from Scalia, Thomas, Alito, and Roberts. And he’s not exactly healthy.
peanutbutter @ 19
I do hope that you are no prophet.
You say you would take HRC’ picks over the Goul any day but the question is who would Hillary pick, who she is told to by big pharma, by the insurance companies, by defense contractors, by wallmart?
We know that guilliani is a pig the question is is HRC a pig in a poke?
peanutbutter @ 22
lol, well maybe we can pack kun n dodd together :D
oddmommy @ 26
It wasn’t a perfect bill therefore it was not worthy of his yes vote.
peanutbutter @ 19
I think Guiliani is the Rep. establishment’s chosen candidate. That is why so many of his people are in so many positions that are linked to past/present/future shenanigans like the CA electoral vote thing.
oddmommy @ 25
Apparently because it wasn’t perfect — it wasn’t the entire ready-assembled single-payer health care plan en toto.
I think that was a huge mistake. It shows something about him I’m not sure is a good thing.
The Kyl-Lieberman resolution was, in a very real sense, even worse than “tanamount to a declaration of war.” It was an indisputable grant of authority to bush to attack Iran. Even worse, it was a grant that the Congress cannot elect to rescind, unless it is willing to reverse its finding that the Iranian National Guard is a terrorist organization.
This is the penultimate WHEREAS clause from the Iraq AUMF of October 2002:
“Whereas the President has authority under the Constitution to
take action in order to deter and prevent acts of international
terrorism against the United States, as Congress recognized in
the joint resolution on Authorization for Use of Military Force
(Public Law 107–40);”
Note that the authority of the president to “deter and prevent acts of international terrorism” is CONSTITUTIONAL. In other words, Congress cannot limit or abridge that authority other than by amendment to the constitution.
By designating the IRG a terrorist organization, the Congress has acquiesced in bush’s authority to unilaterally take action against the IRG and therefore against Iran – without further consultation with the Congress, and without Congressional approval.
The designation of the IRG was extraordinary for two reasons. First, we had never before designated the uniformed, organized military of a sovereign state as a terrorist organization. Second, the designation of the IRG as a terrorist organization completely flies in the face of administration’s characterization of terrorist groups in the debate over the applicability of the Geneva Conventions. At that time, the administration argued that because terrorist groups do not wear uniforms and are not affiliated with a sovereign state they are not entitled to various protections of the Geneva Conventions extended to military groups.
The designation of the IRG as a terrorist organization effectively takes the position that ANY armed resistance to the United States is terrorist in nature, even if such resistance takes the form of attacks against legitimate military targets such as the U.S. military, and even if such attack comes from the military of a sovereign state.
This is so absurd on its face that bush needed affirmation from the Congress. It is a position so utterly contradictory of the definition of terrorism that bush need congressional affirmation in order to forestall criticism from congress in the future that bush’s designation of the IRG as a terrorist organization was a brazen end-run around the right of congress to approve military action against sovereign states.
The Kyl-Lieberman resolution was even more pernicious than the Iraq AUMF, which was itself a farce insofar as it permitted bush to launch war upon the certification of various matters that, as of March 19, 2003, were flatly contrary to fact.
The dems were duped again. Hillary disgrace herself again. The nation, and the nation’s press, seems barely to have noticed.
ifthethunderdontgetya @ 6
Yes, there is that. All the more reason to point out these goofs now.
Hillary’s vote brings to mind an old saying . . .
“There’s an old saying in Tennessee — I know it’s in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can’t get fooled again.”
video
text source
JF @ 30
Exackerly.
Hillary didn’t even bother to read the NIE. Somebody ought to ask her that one.
ifthethunderdontgetya @ 27
furthermore Justice Stevens is 87; Souter hates DC, and both he and Ginsburg are probably going to want to retire sooner rather than later.
The statement “The present makeup of the Supreme court is going to be for awhile” is absolutely ignorant of reality.
Her vote for Kyl-Liarman represents the age old conflict between political aspiration and representative governance.
oddmommy @ 26
Essentially he argued that the compromise bill left out too many. it does leave out children of legal immigrants, pregnant women (who are covered now in some states) and doesn’t get all the uninsured children — and of course, he wants a single payer system for everyone.
dakine01 @ 30
I’ve heard that b4 but I don’t quite understand what it means.
I looked for, but could not find, youtube footage of Hil and LIEberman giving our President repeated standing ovations during the 2003 SOTU. It disgusted me at the time to see such obvious pandering cheeleaders for war. And that image has not faded from my memory.
Politically expedient dupe, willing or otherwise, Hillary is far from my first choice.
jayt,
Thanks for the heads-up on Springsteen on the Today show. Fantastic intro to the song he’s singing now–about all the things that shouldn’t be happening in this country…rendition, etc. Go Bruce!!
Karen Rapp @ 23
What about Mark Twain?
oddmommy @ 38
this is why I can’t believe Bush won in 2006!
I know this probably belongs in the thread below … but did anyone see Springsteen on the Today show? Did anyone hear his “PSA”? He listed a bunch of things we’ve been talking about here. ;-)
In my prior post I failed to mention another extraordinary aspect of the Kyl-Lieberman resolution, an aspect the underlies my contention that the U.S. government has now taken the position that any armed resistance to the U.S. military is terrorist in nature.
If you read the whole Kyl-Lieberman amendment, the justification for designation the IRG as a terrorist organization is exclusively based on the IRG’s alleged role in providing IEDs and support for attacks on U.S. forces – not attacks on civilians in Iraq, or attacks designed to sow terror among the civilian population, but attacks against the occupying military forces in Iraq.
I was shocked by this approach. I expected that the resolution would make claims about the IRG’s role in car-bombings and other attacks that plainly are terrorist in nature. But it did not. It repeatedly emphasized the attacks on U.S. and coalition forces.
This is the Oxford English Dictionary of “terrorism”:
“A policy intended to strike with terror those against whom it is adopted; the employment of methods of intimidation; the fact of terrorizing or condition of being terrorized.”
This definition does not foreclose the possibility that military attacks can be terrorist in nature. Certainly the bombing of civilian populations, such as occurred routinely in WW II, are terrorist in nature to the extent the objective isn’t strategic (i.e., designed to destroy targets that support military operations) but are instead intended to defeat the will of the civilian population to resist.
But the instances cited in the Kyl-Lieberman resolution are strictly alleged IRG support for attacks on our military, for strategic operations designed to weaken our military forces.
The Kyl-Lieberman resolution effectively opens the door for a concept of terrorism that would permit any armed resistance to U.S. forces to be deemed terrorist in nature, and therefore to expand bush’s unilateral authority to take military action to ANY foreign opposition.
Ponder that for a moment.
peanutbutter @ 32
I agree. Not good at all.
egregious @ 44
LOL!!
If this were a Republican candidate, I would see it as a disqualifying event.
Or an Independent voter.
thomas c.
As a matter of law, the “whereas” clauses of a bill are merely commentary on legislative intent. They provide background and rationale, but they are not prescriptive or binding. If Congress wants to grant or restrict anything, it has to be in the “resolved” clauses.
Not that this isn’t important to watch — but we need to keep the commentary on the bill separate from the bill itself.
jayt @ 10
Don’t sweat it!! Sounds like he’s been reading the blogs. ;-) Mentioning Habeus Corpus and the like
dakine01 @ 9
There is a post waiting to be written that would stack up the definition/attributes of a state sponsor of terrorism against the policies of the last seven years. And draw the obvious conclusion.
Ahmedinejad, despite all his craziness and indifference to injustice in his own land, was cheered by many at the UN the other day, because they already have that comparison in their heads — And Americans cannot see themselves. A huge gulf.
thomas c @ 47
I think most of us here at the Lake have pondered that before, during and after the Kyl-Lieberman amendment vote.
Simply put, I do not trust Hillary Clinton to make the right decisions on foreign policy in the Middle East.
as much as it pains me to come clinton’s defense – her vote represents the majority view among the dems in congress… and that includes the house of representatives.
the senate iran votes have gotten some exposure while the house iran votes have been pretty much under the radar – probably because in the senate they were sponsored by lieberman.
but the house has been just as irresponsible as the senate (maybe even moreso).
this week there was the lantos anti-iran bill H.R.1400 which passed 397 to 16 (dem votes were 209 to 12 in favor.
in june there was the anti-iran h.con.res.21, which passed 411 – 2.
in may there was the votes on the defazio amendment which asserted that president bush must get congressional authorization before attacking iran, which failed 136 to 288 with 100 dems voting “no”
Re war in general, teach your children well (shameless vanity – that’s me and my boys at yesterday’s antiwar march at Kent State).
Oklahoma kiddo @ 55
Really, OKK?? ;)
Karen Rapp @ 23
I’m afraid I can’t help you. My real name would mean nothing to anyone, except maybe my dad and my employer; but everyone knows the Scarecrow. I’ll have to settle for that image, which I aspire to.
Hillary’s defense has been “I trusted Bush to make the right decision, but against my advice, and to my surprise, he deceived all of us and made the wrong decision.”
Sorry, but if she was surprised to discover that Bush is a liar, she’s far too stupid to be President.
Excellent post, Scarecrow!
It reminds me that the Big Dog won in ‘92 as a left-leaning moderate. When the GOP veered sharply to the Right in ‘94 with the Contract for America, Clinton leapt squarely on the Center and won easily in ‘96.
Hillary’s strategy here appears to be that she wants to stay on the ‘center’-side of the GOP Line-up of Strict Daddies, marginally ‘in touch’ with their policies, but able to defect to the Center, when the ‘tide’ turns drastically against BuchCo.
dan_ps @ 57
Bless you!
twȝk @ 19
and continuing with my unpleasant info…. in march, dodd was a co-sponsor of s.970, which also called for the iranian national guard to be classified as a terrorist organization.
OT at 10:30 there’s a discussion panel with the Congressional Black Caucus, a group that IS willing to go to bat for the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
right now, Pentagon briefing.
I think they killed another #2 guy of something.
Scarecrow @ 53
I just didn’t want to give the right the obvious opening they would see to declare that folks on foul-mouthed fem blogs are saying the US Army is a terrorist organization. Even though that’s what they will probably say anyway.
Why should I support HRC on the basis of her being First Lady for eight years, as the Senator constantly reminds everyone? When you get right down to it HRC is a junior senator, in possession of some not very good decision making abilities.
Absolutely correct. I said the same thing when I heard about her vote.
She is no longer in my realm of consideration.
Unfortunately, none of the other Dem candidates are, either.
I could be up-that-creek-without-that-paddle come November, 2008. Oh well, not the first time!
selise @ 55
But she represents the people of New York, not the House of Representatives. She does not have the responsibility to vote how the majority of Dems in Congress feel.
Caw, Caw, another two great posts, Scarecrow! Another blank check from the Senate to the Bush Administration should foreclose Hillary ever being put into the position of having to make this type of judgments forever if there was any justice, but unfortunately, it may not even prevent her from becoming Commander in Chief!
peanutbutter @ 2
He’ll probably say he was out with the flu…but his skip was almost as bad as Hillary’s vote in my books.
radiofreewill @ 61
I see Hillary as a “liberal” on most issues, but compromised by what Pach calls the “corporatist” accommodation. But on foreign policy, she accepts the “war on terror” idiocy, as do most in her party (and all the Republicans). We have to elect Dems who recognize this framing is dangerous to everyone, including us.
oddmommy @ 26
i believe he voted yes, until coverage for legal immigrants was removed (do to pressure from people who think brown children shouldn’t have access to health care).
oddmommy,
oddmommy @ 37
What reality is that? That only Hillary will replace these supremes with good candidates? Get real. If her choices are anything, she proven that she’ll do what pleases her masters and not what is right. Are you that naive?
dan_ps @ 57
CUTE!
you’re right, teach your children well…
Seems to me that on the issues of Iraq, Iran and Middle East policies, Senator Clinton is in harmony with Joe Lieberman.
dakine01 @ 65
I believe Blackwater (reference to oil, of course) is George Bush’s religious militia (Osama has one too) who are in Iraq to use this country as their central front to take over the region and to use what they’ve learned there when they come back to the states (kind of like the Taliban using their strength against the Aghans) for Martial Law purposes or whatever it is the Fundies in America want to do. Death squads seem to be a Bush Family/Friends kind of thing. Sick.
selise @ 63
sh?t not going to have anyone I’ll vote for!
Hillary is still stuck in the “I’m just as tough as any man” stage; would sure be nice if she’d move on to the “I’m tough enough to make my own decisions, and they don’t have a damn thing to do with being a woman” stage.
(unless she really *is* the person she’s portraying via those votes)
Stogo @ 72
Not that “only Hillary” will nominate “good” candidates, but that, given the choice between Hillary and any of the Republiucan Pres. candidates, Hillary’s nominations would be much better for our country.
And what group within the Democratic is most closely identified with “corporatist accommodation”. And who is a team leader of that group?
Elliott @ 64
Fascist Friday!
twȝk @ 76
Draft Gore
What if you held a debate and nobody came?
4 Top G.O.P. Candidates Skip Debate With Minority Focus
Yesterday- 9-28-2007
The moderator and the panel of well-known journalists were there. A large live audience was there, too, along with the public television cameras that carried the forum to television sets across the nation. But where the four leading Republican presidential candidates were to have stood and debated, four empty, silent lecterns sat on the stage.
snip
It is so much easier to purge black & hispanic voters than to talk to them…
thomas c — thanks for the quote in the preamble of the resolution. Does someone have a link to the final language — I’ve seen only handwritten (literally) mark ups of early text.
twȝk @ 81
lol!
Personally I am not seeking a Republican for prez. I am searching for a ‘different kind of Democrat’ (from the front-runners) for president.
Stogo @ 73
no. That the only hope for replacing any retiring justices with good ones is a Democratic president, whoever it is.
And just who are Hillary’s “masters,” btw? I don’t deal in arguments based on meaningless rhetoric.
ccmask @ 82
The leading GOP candidates are afraid to have any scrutiny given to their statements and beliefs, especially in front of minority audiences. This shows how far from the mainstream they really are.
If they can hide their true beliefs, more people can be fooled into believing that they are not insane.
Kuchinich it is.
JF @ 68
completely agree… my point was only that it’s not fair to hold clinton and lieberman (and to a lesser degree, the senate) to one standard and the house to another…. because then people can get the idea that our reps in the house haven’t been doing the same kind of thing. that is all.
JF @ 82
No!
ccmask @ 83
and I thought the Democratic version was a great forum, too
I’m still stunned that the leading Republicans actually gave Tavis Smiley the back of their hand! and fundraising is the excuse, pleeasse
But the vote on the Iran resolution was not about positioning for the general election, because it was not about what a President Clinton would do, but about what Bush/Cheney might do.
War is evil. Why is that so hard to understand?
It’s time to dump the phonies. Hillary is in that camp. At least Liebermann is now an independent but look at the harm he’s done.
If we overlook her flagrant slap at the base what is to say she wouldn’t do the same when she gets the highest office in the land.
She voted again to give these warmongers a pass after the Iraq debacle. How can anoyone argue that she’s on our side?
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 89
Nonsense! He makes too much sense.
egregious @ 44
I think he’s dead.
Scarecrow @ 59
Scarecrow, did you ever see the Disney movie Dr. Syn, Alias the Scarecrow?http://www.onlyclassicmovies.com/Dr_Syn.html
One of my favorite films, with Patrick Magoohan as the firey and charasmatic minister(though I have to admit a warm spot for his assistant minister, Curlew) fighting the British Navy’s press gangs.
Hillary is vile. Bill is vile. Their advisors are vile. I won’t be held hostage by these people. Landing a pro-choice Supreme Court justice is not a good enough reason to put the DLC back in control of this country. Screw them.
peanutbutter @ 22
That was both a surprise and a disappointment.
I just can’t vote for Hillary for tons of reasons. One thing is for sure, I am sick of either a Bush or a Clinton in office! So tired of that. My gut is telling me to vote for Dennis Kucinich twice (in the primary and on election day) next year even if he’s not on the ballot in November. It just feels like the right thing to do! I can’t get past the fact that Hillary & Edwards both originally voted for use of force against Iraq and I’m not impressed that Obama is not showing up for the votes, because he’s too afraid to go on record. Kucinich may have pointy ears, but at least they’re pointing in the right direction for our country!
Gore! Gore! Gore!
Hmm, not sure I agree. Hillary Clinton is from New York. Much of her money — and support — comes from the same pro-Israel hawks who support Joe Lieberman. After all this time I’m pretty convinced that this was why Bubba threw Ned Lamont to the dogs — Hillary needed to keep this contingent on her side. So she continues to appease them with this kind of vote and language.
And no, that doesn’t make it any better. Probably worse. Her justifications for it make no sense, as Edwards rightly points out.
What about Mark Twain?
I think he’s dead.
Those reports were greatly exaggerated, iirc.
Hillary has sold her soul to Zionist lobby. Her middle east policy is in tune with Neocon. Her new vote in favor of war against Iran is consistant with her previous vote on Iraq , rest is her dishonest spin.
She refuse to commit return of troop for next 4 years when she is elected.
She is in same rank with dirty Joe.
I won’t vote for her.
Love her farthingale.
thank god thank god thank god the kyl-leiberman death chant rattle over the skies of tehran amendment has passed with the beauticious peaceful dovelike democratic party purebloods joining in holding hands around the campfire-
yes there was excitement today as the new american president a liberal progressive visited the recently conquered territories, ‘would you like some water dear? that’s right, reach out with the hand that isn’t burnt…’
Toby Wollin @ 97
and he even has a theme song!
but I’ll spare him the link ;)
This whole “Run up to White House” is nothing but a BSO! Progress majority. Given the choices so far that is sooo much more important.
selise @ 90
IMO there is a different standard for the Senate and the House. The framers saw it that way and contemporary members of both chambers have the luxury of using that fact, albeit dishonorably in many instances.
KayInMaine @ 100
*blushing* Ooops, the way I wrote this appears that I’ll be voting for Kucinich twice during the primary & the election. LOL I meant that I will vote for him ONCE in the primary, because he’s who I want on the ballot, and if he’s not on the ballot in November, I will write his name in.
ifthethunderdontgetya @ 6
The Supreme Court is irrelevant & gone >> and is fundamentally a separate issue from the substantive policies of either candidate.
It’s a false justification for several reasons:
1. Supreme Court makeup is set already and will be little affected by the next Prznt.
2. Hillary Clinton did nothing to shape the debate over Roberts or Alito. She had a chance to “advise & consent,” and chose capitulation.
3. The question is moot, in that both the current Supreme Court and Senator Clinton have failed to adequately confront the issues of the day in a manner substantively consistent with the Constitution and their oaths to uphold it.
4. Sen. Clinton’s spent much time co-sponsoring vanity legislation with the likes of Trent Lott & Co (on th order of declaring October Mississippi Quilting Heritage Month).
Hillary Clinton’s failure to uphold her oath of office as a Senator precludes the pretense she’s qualified to be Prznt.
America needs a Dem or Hillary leading us to war with Iran like the country needs a hold in the head.
Hillary Clinton’s been demagoguing Iran, and fanning the SAME flames as Dick Cheney & Bush.
I won’t vote for Hillary EVEN IF she’s the nominee–it’ll be the first time in my life not voting Dem. An honest and obscene tyrant like George Bush is better than a betrayer who can’t stand up for the Constitution even while, in name only, a “Senator.”
oddmommy @ 86
Masters? Don’t be facetious. You know who they are. The same bunch that support Bush..
Rhetoric? Look up the meaning of the word. Apparently you don’t know it.
Peterr @ 51
Let’s step back for a moment. In 2002, the Cheney Administration maintained that they did not need Congressional authorisation for invading Iraq, and said they would not seek it. It was only after Daschle came to them and said he’d counted the votes and IWR would pass, that they agreed to bring it before the Senate.
The long and the short is: if the Cheney administration decides to attack Iran (something I don’t think is a given, but I think a reasonable person could), then Congress cannot stop them, whether by “resolved” or “whereas” or anything else.
There is exactly one way to stop them if they make this decision: if the generals have a leg to stand on in claiming that the order to attack is unconstitutional.
The Lieberman amendment of several weeks ago (not the Kyl-Lieberman amendment) explictly contained a clause saying nothing shall be contrued to constitute authorization of military force against Iran.
The K-L amendment did not. That gives the Cheney administration very strong grounds to claim that had Congress not wanted this to be an authorization, they would have said so.
And that cuts the ground right out from any general who’d like to disobey the order as unconstitutional.
At this point, only if the Senate unambiguously states that they do not authorize an attack on Iran, can there be a clear case that such an order is unconstitutional. Absent that, at this point it’s pretty murky, and murky is not where a general wants to be when disobeying an order.
Scarecrow @ 84
the official text should, i think, eventually be posted here.
Scarecrow @ 96
Those rumors are exaggerated ‘Crow. :)
Elliott @ 45
he didn’t. 2000? 2004? nadda.
Those that voted to give George his phony war in Iraq have as much blood on their hands as does Bush.
Scarecrow:
Well said. “Disqualifying” is precisely the right word.
Whatever her reasons for acting the way she acts (and it’s very tempting to connect those actions to responses from the Israel lobby, but then so could one with those of Bu$h£€®©o™), she’s clearly more interested in devoting the vast amounts of resources of the gov’t to waging war rather than diplomacy.
The opportunity costs of her judgments include needless loss of life, environmental catastrophe, diversion of resources away from domestic needs, including infrastructure, health care, education (don’t get me started!), and general welfare for the needy as opposed to the corporate donors who by and large have been bankrolling her campaign up to this point.
The issue raised in the blog was ignored during her senate re-election campaign. Just as the question about Iraq has been avoided at the debates this go round, so were they during that period of her political life.
She’s basically had it easy. The idea of her buying posh digs in Westchester Co NY was the frozen limit. Why not a humble dacha, instead? :P
does ‘big pharma’ money count as ‘masters?’
Oddmommy,
Read comments 103 and 110.
HRC is nothing more than another common garden variety chickenhawk.
before we get it up our nose that we won’t vote for HRC in the general election, let’s see if we cannot nominate someone else.
Johnson’s Dog @ 98
putting aside the cavalier dismissal of “landing a pro choice candidate,” the importance of who’s on the fucking Supreme Court is not limited to abortion rights.
Who put George W. Bush in office, people?
Who’s gonna decide if his goons get to listen in on your phone calls whenever they want to?
Who’s gonna decide if someone can’t vote because they don’t have a goddamn driver’s license?
Wake the fuck up.
thomas c @ 33
How do you figure the Dems were “duped” on this one? The language was pretty clear.
Last night on Abram’s show, PAt Buchanan said this resolution was a green light for Shrub to invade Iran.
This is SOOOO insane.
BTW and only slightly OT, last night in the comments I was complaining that Obama seems unwilling to confront Hillary on her own turf. Today I wake up to find that as I was typing that, he was having a huge rally in Washington Square Park in Greenwich Village.
Shows yo just how wrong I can be sometimes.
Jane Hamsher @ 101
Bingo
Alice @ 122
Ahhhh, the sensible thing to do!
Adie @ 115
oops! you’re right!
Peterr @ 51
This was a non-binding resolution, No? so as an expression of the sentiment of the US Senate, I don’t see much of a distinction between the preamble and the other clauses. The language can/will be cited by Bush/cheney as support for their policies — it was politically enabling, even if some court 10,000 lives later determined it had no legal effect. We are not dealing with a regime that pays attention to legal niceties.
alank @ 118
My guess that her main motivation is craven self-interest. Even when she does the right thing, which I assume she does every now and again.
Scarecrow @ 84
Here’s the full text, as passed by both the House and Senate:
THOMAS at the Library of Congress is great for finding these things, but I’ve had problems trying to link to their search results!
good work, scarecrow – hope this is hung around Hillary’s record at public Q & A sessions
(Tazer-mad cops permitting, of corse. Don’t want to offend the armed people in charge of our electoral process)
kdh22 @ 109
sorry that i’m not making any sense this morning. i meant the standard that we hold our congress critters to… for example, why give lantos and pass but not lieberman?
Scarecrow @ 96
C’mon People!?! Work together nicely, or go sit in opposite corners facing the wall until you can. You’re just about all I’ve got to look up to!
Oh. and Good Morning dear friends! ;->
I’m fond of asking how many in the Bush family are serving in Iraq? Well… how many in the Clinton family are serving in combat?
kirk murphy @ 131
That would be funny if it weren’t so true.
i despise bill clinton. imo he should be tried in the hague right after bush.
Here’s Cindy Sheehan’s criteria for any candidate for any office. I doubt if you’d get a straight answer from Hillary about her position on a single one of these issues. They are all significant and will be my criteria come 2008 and beyond.
Repeal the Patriot Act
Repeal No Child Left Behind
Scale down the Department of Homeland Security and rename it so it loses its Nazi
tone and is brought under civilian control.
Restore habeas corpus and close all torture camps by repealing the Military Commissions’ Act.
Repeal all contracts with paid mercenary killer companies.
Restore the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878.
Repeal all BushCo-Presidential directives (especially Directive 51) and review all laws that contain signing statements.
Restore the 4th Amendment by enforcing warrants for spying on Americans.
Impeach Bush and Cheney-post presidency so they can’t receive federal benefits.
Bring all troops home from Iraq and Afghanistan and review military needs for other bases around the world.
Repeal all free trade agreements.
Kick AIPAC and other lobbyists out of the halls of Congress where they have no business.
Canuck Stuck in Muck @ 7
It isn’t really what her reasoning was. Here reasoning was about how things would look in election ads and in fundraisers. And in part that is what scares me the most about her.
Scarecrow @ 129
No, it was not non-binding sense of the Senate — it was a public law, passed by both houses. See the text @ 131. It explicitly granted Bush the authorization to do whatever the hell he wanted, as long as he said “9/11! 9/11!” first.
selise @ 132
Oh I see, Selise. I misunderstood your comment. Are you O.K.??
On the Hillary front: I think she, along with many Senate Dems, does not have the sense that they are playing with live ammunition. (See my 113 for why I think that thinking is terribly wrong.) They seem to think of this as a throwaway vote, something to protect themselves from various quarters of criticisms without actually having any effect.
In four months when the Iran War Resolution is before them, they’ll be wishing they’d said “no” now.
selise @ 56
selise — I agree on the point of collective resonsibility; but should we say nothing about the vote of someone who asks to be our President? And the argument has more force when Biden and Dodd voted “no.”
On a serious note, how about a coalition of pissed and betrayed progressives? Enlist Gore, Nader, Kucinich, Gravel and the good cache of serious left and anarchists intellectuals and give the DLC a run of its money. If they don’t represent us, lets replace them.
Does anyone besides me think the growing fixation on big bad A*I*PAC on this site is beginning to degenerate into the language of “international Z*on*st conspiracy”?
This is really beginning to bother me. And PLEASE don’t throw out that tired saw about “anti Israel doesn’t equal anti Semitism.” I KNOW that.
Is Hillary willing to sacrifice Chelsea for George Bush’s illegal occupation? If not, then she had better be prepared to answer the question! As a mother of a 13 year old, I do not want him serving the Bush family when he turns 18. I’m not against the military either. My father, brother, cousins, and uncles have all served our nation (almost all of my father’s friends over the past 50 years are his Army buddies). A few of them have seen combat (two cousins served in the Persian Gulf war, one served in Iraq this time around, my uncle was in the Korean war, and my father and his buddies were on the cusp of going to Vietnam, but their number was not called). But! I cannot let my son serve in 5 years. I just can’t. I don’t like how our soldiers are currently being used and many soldiers who are coming back from Iraq are also feeling the same way. Iraq is not a just war and any country that is dragged into this mess is also an unjust war. Why would I want my son to be a part of that? Some soldiers are returning their medals because of the dishonor they’re feeling. It’s too bad too. Sucks actually, but that is the mess that George Bush has created!
twȝk @ 19
Chris Dodd, too!!
Adie @ 134
You okay, Adie? egregious knows I was pulling her leg . . . I think.
Er, Adie?
I have no idea what you’re talking about. Scarecrow and I are on good terms.
I would try to pull his leg sometimes but it might come off.
cindy sheehan is an extremely articulate and thoughtful person with realizations and conclusions forged by grief and compassion
Peterr @ 131
there is a trick, if you know the bill number and which congress. take a look at any of my links to bills, resolutions or amendments in this thread to see the format used.
oddmommy @ 144
so then what’s the problem?
Various commenters, here and elsewhere, have noted that the WHEREAS clause that conceded bush’s constitutional authority to deter terrorist attacks is not binding. This is true in the technical sense, but also irrelevant.
Were this matter subject to judicial interpretation, indeed a court would hold that the WHEREAS clause did not preclude congress from revisiting this issue, and contending that bush’s authority was not constitutional. However, this matter is likely not subject to judicial review, falling in the category of a political issue between two branches of government. There is zero chance the S.C. would intervene in this matter. If this were a matter of congressional legislative action that defined the rights of citizens, then certainly a claimant could confidently assert that the WHEREAS clause was not binding. But this matter is simply not justiciable, at least in the view of the current S.C.
The issue here is political. The congress voted overwhelmingly in the Iraq AUMF to acknowledge broad constitional powers for the president to deter terrorist attacks without the requirement of congressional authorization. This congress will never rescind that finding in the Iraq AUMF, and bush certainly will invoke it when he attacks Iran.
oddmommy @ 144
You want us to ignore the elephant in the room? Everything she’s done stems from her allegiance to that group.
oddmommy @ 144
Me too. And not because I’m at all fond of Israel.
The committee that dare not speak its name likely has considerable influence but not more than a number of other groups/lobbies.
John @ 137
Damn fine List!
Is Hillary willing to sacrifice Chelsea for George Bush’s illegal occupation?
why sacrifice your own child when you can take out a generation or 4 of tea drinking iranians?
Jane Hamsher @ 102
Jane, I have no doubt you’re correct. And that raises a question for me….I was in the trenches for the Lamont fight and I was appalled by the lack of Clinton (and Obama) support for the Democratic candidate and for the rabid pro-Israel candidate (dirty Joe Lieberman).
So how does someone talk about this without being called horrible names? All I want is a fair discussion of America’s middle-east policy without unfettered support for everything/anything related to Israel. To some people, even the hint of the word “Israel” requires absolute support regardless of the consequences. I am, unfortunately, an “America first” foreign policy fanatic.
But if you point that out you’re suddenly against Israel to the point of vilification.
Fern @ 154
I know that’s a reasoned approach but I’m willing to guess that ‘certain’ organizations have 1000 times more influence than others.
the recent ‘war’ in iraq seems to indicate this.
Stogo @ 154
“Everything,” huh?
Tell me again how I don’t know what rhetoric means.
Peterr @ 140
Ah, my mistake; I thought I read it was “non-binding.” Even worse; my argument about the political enabling is even stronger.
Elliott @ 92
I watched part of that debate. There was a surprising amount of noticable discomfort be the candidates. Tehy did not seem well prepared and Dr. Paul stumbled badly. It was like watching a car wreck.
Scarecrow at 71
“I see Hillary as a “liberal” on most issues, but compromised by what Pach calls the “corporatist” accommodation. But on foreign policy, she accepts the “war or terror” idiocy, as do most in her party (and all the Republicans). We have to elect Dems who recognize this framing is dangerous to everyone, including us.”
I agree wholeheartedly with you! In addition, it seems to take a period of ‘time’ for People, in general, to ‘change their minds,’ particularly when under the stress of Fear. Shock and Awe on the ‘enemy’ has a conversely similar effect on the People’s ability to envision other points of view.
For those who can see that BushCo is out of control and out of touch, our Challenge is to Wake our Brothers and Sisters from their Nightmare as gently as possible, while still getting them awake in time to Change Course before BushCo outruns Our Resources and Completely Crashes.
We need to spread the word: We need more People to ’see’ clearly for themselves the Consequences of BushCo’s Policies on the very Fabric of the Nation. We need all hands available to help untangle the millions of threads in this mass of confusion.
If we can say, “Watch out for that Cliff” persuasively enough – and patiently long enough, without running out of time – then the course will get changed.
We need to rally support for ‘Clear Vision’ instead of Blind Ideology.
HRC: Today’s leading candidate for the PDA– Political Darwin Award.
committee for finland-u.s. chess tournaments:
no influence on attacking iran.
committee for tofu-processing & flavouring:
no influence on attacking iran.
committee for corrective bifocals:
no influence on attacking iran.
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 156
True. Is there a generation tea drinking Iranians left in Iran? Oh boy. War always ends up with dead people on both sides with no clear winner. Oh, but that’s not gonna stop the yellow-bellied chickenhawks! Their children aren’t going, so why would they care if the rest of a generation left over after their parent’s generation was wiped out prior too by war?
*kicking metal trashcan down the stairs in frustration*
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 159
What is the evidence that we invaded Iraq to placate the Israel lobby? I’ve never heard it.
Do you really think that’s what Cheney and Bush are about?
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 158
I think it is more likely that the interests of a number of groups coincide. Like arms manufacturers, for instance, who appear have enormous power and influence in terms of foreign policy. And there are huge areas of domestic policy that have nothing to do with Israeli interests. And significant areas of foreign policy in non-middle-east countries – ditto
Professor Foland @ 142
Really? Why should she care?
Who, who voted for the Iraq war has seen their career suffer as a result? Not politicians, not pundits, not stink tank denizens, not anyone.
They don’t see any connection to the catastrophic loss of life and their own sorry careeers.
oddmommy @ 159
“Everything” in this context means her positions on Iraq,Iran,the troops etc. Savvy?
Sha @ 158
no, that’s not true, at least not for me. I don’t believe in absolute blind support for anything or anyone.
There is no need for an “Iran War Resolution”. By the Terms of the War Powers Resolution of 1973, Bush can go ahead and bomb Iran, with only the caveat that he inform Congress that he has done so within 48 hours, and that his failure to consult prior to taking the action was necessary to protect operational secrecy and security.
Precedent -> Jimmy Carter’s mission to rescue American captives from Iran.
Fern @ 168
THANK YOU.
True. Is there a generation tea drinking Iranians left in Iran? Oh boy. War always ends up with dead people on both sides with no clear winner. Oh, but that’s not gonna stop the yellow-bellied chickenhawks! Their children aren’t going, so why would they care if the rest of a generation left over after their parent’s generation was wiped out prior too by war?
Tea drinking, is that like Larry “Tea Room” Craig?
*kicking metal trashcan down the stairs in frustration*
Scarecrow @ 161
I could be wrong, but I think you guys have crossed wires. I think Peterr is talking about AUMF / IWR, Scarecrow about the Lieberman amendment.
looseheadprop @ 160
and this is the year two thousand aught seven! It shocks me.
Jane Hamsher @ 102
jane, are you saying you don’t think clinton is sort of a pro-war hawk?
oddmommy @ 159
Rhetoric? See this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhetoric
oddmommy @ 166
bush and cheney are about different things personally but collectively they fit into a certain niche of A. religious fundamentalists with literal (& totally erroneous) biblical interpretations.. B. ultra fanatical Christian Zionist Israel supporters C. money & profit for defense industry friends D. lack of personal responsibility for decisions causing horrific death and destruction to others E. earth & body & sex hating
Alice @ 123
Very realistic. We should really be trying to figure out this Primary
Hey egreg, crow!
I’m fine. Just haven’t had my coffee, & forgot to end with /s. Okay now? I know yer buddies. YEAH. I was trying to joke in the midst of a rather tart series of comments. Should know better, oops.
While I’m lost among the trees, mebbe someone can enlighten me in re: the Kyl-Liarman language. (#131)
The way it reads to me, boosh has clear go-ahead to attack the Sauds. eh?
S’cuse. Really must go get that caffeine.
Back in a sec. ;->
{{{{{{PEACE}}}}}}
What is the evidence that we invaded Iraq to placate the Israel lobby? I’ve never heard it.
How did Ray McGovern put this? Oil, Israel, and Lies.
Scarecrow @ 160
Yep. The whereases add to the mess. But the real pain comes from the resolution itself.
Usually, the whereas clauses are filled with self-serving bluster and bright shiny objects — even for “good” bills. The meat of the issue is in the resolution. Always.
Toby — sorry, not familiar with that movie.
Jane — are you disagreeing with the post, or something else? You suggest a motivation for the vote, and that’s another topic — but wasn’t my focus.
Hillary “cheney’d” herself on that vote.
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 165
so, there are no other powerful lobbies in this country besides A*I*PAC? Is that what this little exercise is supposed to teach us?
selise @ 150
Ahh! All is revealed. Many thanks!
Finding things is step one.
Being able to share them with others is step two.
And as egregious reminds us, this is a marathon, not a sprint.
thomas c @ 33
This goes to the nub of the issue. Congress plainted our country into a corner to the point where we are all potentially liable for war crimes offenses. It never ends. Only military disaster will save us (and the rest of the world) from ourselves.
oddmommy @ 144
One thing Jane is not is a purveyor of anti-zionist conspiracy theories. The connections Hillary has with pro-Israel money are real and extensive.
OT
Oh bother! CSPAN is not able to broadcast the forum with the Congressional Black Caucus.
will be shown later.
oddmommy you have facebook mail
Propagandee @ 163
707!
looseheadprop @ 178
There has been an awful lot of “pox on both your houses” rhetoric (ahem) on here lately – together with support of third party candidates and oh-so-principled refusals to vote dem. Just an observation.
I think that Hillary fully expects to be the next president of the United States-so while the political issue is important, it’s LESS important for her than the international leadership issue.
The task is to talk Iran out of nuclear weapons. A nuclear armed Iran could be the flash point for WW3 nuclear warfare. Hillary would like to see the plug pulled on Iran’s nuke program WITHOUT an invasion. She would like to see Bush handle the negotiation before she comes into office- but that won’t happen if Iran thinks that they’ll get a better deal with her than with him- so she’s sayin “Don’t think I’m gonna roll over and let you develop nukes- you might as well deal with Bush” At least that’s how I interpret the geo speak.
oddmommy @ 185
Of course there are many. None got us here though. Except you know..
oddmommy @ 185
Move On has 3.2 million members.
Would you say they hold more sway over political/military/economic decisions than the A*P*C lobby?
kdh22 @ 141
yes. thank you for asking.
sorry about being such an AHPITN (ass hole pain in the neck).
oddmommy @ 145
I noticed that, too. The problem is A*I*PAC is a REAL player and to ignore them, well…
I don’t think there is any right answer
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 151
Actually, I’m with oddmommy on this one. (Not that that is unusual for me.) I think there is a real problem with some of the tacts the discussions have gone on this site. A while back there was a thread about the fact that the Jews run the media and that is why it is so corrupt. My comment then was, “And the Jewish Bankers too?”
Blanket support for Israel is wrong. The country has acted in many many criminal ways and there is no excuse for many of it’s actions. This needs to be discussed and the criminal actions opposed, just like in the US. But blaming it all on the Jews is a really poor direction to take to say the least!
looseheadprop @ 179
Speaking only for myself, Gore! Gore! Gore!
Many of us have been worried about the “cakewalk” crazies pre-emptively bombing Iran since the illegal invasion of Iraq. All one has to do is go and read the defense strategies at the Project for a New American Century and basically read the plans.
http://www.newamericancentury.org/
The warmongers Micheal Ledeen, Reuel Marc Gerecht, Bill Kristol, Woolsey, John Bolton etc were everywhere (after the invasion) repeating unsubstantiated claims about Iran. They have been turning up the heat over these last four years. And now we have Ari Fleisher and David Wurmser popping back up to push for a strike on Iran. (these guys should be in prison for outing Plame)
Scott Ritter tells us that stopping an attack on Iran should be front and center http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/092707C.shtml
Daniel Ellsburg agrees stopping an attack on Iran should be front and center for all of us if we want to protect Iranian peoples lives
http://www.commondreams.org/ar…..9/27/4131/
Gareth Porter http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..66020.html backs up what Iaea’s El Baradei has been telling us for years, there is no evidence to back up the claims about Iran being repeated by the radicals
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/…..-warnings/
With the Kyl/Lieberman amendment passing
http://www.warandpiece.com/blogdirs/Kyl-Lieberman Amendment.pdf, and HR 1400 passing
http://www.govtrack.us/congres…..=h110-1400 congress is not doing anything to stop the war train headed for Iran.
So will we find ourselves talking about how many Iranian people are dead from Israel’s or the Bush administrations illegal and pre-emptive strike on Iran. We know this group of warmongers are crazy and ruthless enough to attack Iran. We see what they have done in Iraq…they are brutal killers with absolutely no shame.
It is projected that 10,ooo Iranian people would die if Israel or the US were to pre-emptively attack their nuclear sites
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new…..world.html
The time to do something was four years ago. So please please please do it now… Call, write, e-mail your Reps. No attack on Iran!
http://www.unitedforpeace.org/…..mp;type=98
Quote This Comm
oddmommy @ 170
Plus the right-wing has created the talking point differentiating the regime from the people.
oddmommy @ 144
My question is – what exactly is their influence? I’ve read pieces that claim that pieces are actually being written and given to Congress for introduction (that makes this group no different but smacks nonetheless), but does this group actually hand out money too? How would someone find out who they had made contributions to?
Alice @ 182
I said “evidence,” not “sound bite.”
and to prove to aipac that she was on board.
Could someone please point me to a final vote listing on the Kyl-Liarm. amendmt? thanks much!
oddmommy @167:
I’ll take it your question is asked with ingenuous sincerity. My top four pieces evidence would be:
1. Learn the details of the Rosen-Weissman spying trial, which establishes that A*P*C engages not merely in lobbying but espionage. Among the more piquant details is Rosen’s claim that if you gave him a cocktail napkin he could have the signatures of seventy Senators on it the next day.
2. See candidates’ bellicose speeches given at recent A*P*C and Herzliyah conferences. Witness the fact that in A*P*C’s April 2003 conference in Washington 50 senators attended remarks by C. Rice which journalists were not allowed to attend because, according to participants, “it might give rise to anti-Semitic conspiracy theories” (see Washington Post coverage).
3. Investigate biographies and Israeli connections of Feith, Libby, Perle, Wurmser. Investigate PNAC, its founding document and its signatories.
4. Look at the House’s 410-8 vote last summer against a cease fire in Lebanon, at the very same time American citizens were under threat of bombardment in Lebanon and Israel.
It’s not at all clear that Israel supported the invasion of Iraq- shortly afterwards one of em told Cheney “You’ve already lost this war- it’s only a question of how much humiliation you are willing to endure.”
the statements about A*P*C (not Tupac) are based on concerns about war not the ethnic identity of the organization.
who ‘wants’ war with Iran?
who benefits?
etc….
it’s pretty clear the Samoans are not obsesses with destroying Iran.
wait: this just in:
Samoan General Council declares Iranian grass-weaving industry in violation of U.N. bylaw 230112-R
selise @ 197
You aren’t an AHPITN at all! I so enjoy reading your comments. You are a saint to put up the hearing schedules all the time. You are appreciated!
It’s important to notice that the situations with Iran and Iraq are not the same. Iran IS actively developing a nuclear weapons program. Iran is a much bigger threat to peace in the region and in the world than Iraq ever was.
Scarecrow @ 143
absolutely agree that presidental candidates have a greater responsibility to lead. (but, see my comment about dodd and s.970)
… but i think there are two issues here. one is clinton’s vote – stupid and irresponsible. and the other is that she has lots of dems agreeing with her, which is why all these bills have passed – and that is what puts us in increased danger, not clinton’s vote alone.
Alice @ 181
Arms manufacturers, defense contractors, private mercenary armies, oil services contractors, big pharma, big oil, the Saudi’s, big tobacco, food service industries, Isra*l, those who endeavor to drown the fed government in a bathtub, the top one percent of weathiest…
All are big beneficiairies of war in the Middle East.
Springsteen’s Pacific Standard Time performance will be at approx 8:30 AM.
oddmommy @ 202
I guess you’ve already made up your mind about what to believe. But I’m just going to leave this link here anyway. Your choice..
http://www.forward.com/article…..donations/
Stogo @ 193
Seems to me that the attitudes that are conducive to wars and “war on terror” frameworks are pervasive in many areas of our culture and economy; Eisenhower warned us about this.
It’s not just or primarily one interest group. It’s more pervasive. JMO.
Fern @ 191
Yes, which I find to be very counterproductive and only helpful to republican aspirations.
We need to figure out and come together around a dem candidate that we can elect.
I realize that I am a total hypocrit to be saying this since I cannot seem to make up my own damn mind, but…..
rwcole @ 194
There maybe something in that, but smarter heads than you and I have determined that we can live with a nuclear-armed Iran. I certainly can. And I don’t think we should annihilate 70 million people and possibly ourselves for the sake of Israel. What have they done for us, recently and not so recently that would warrant the risk?
rwcole @ 208
how so, specifically?
do you think they would use that 1 or 5 or 10 bombs in a way that would invite retaliation from Israel’s hundreds of nuclear weapons?
or might they be after a deterrent of sorts?
How are you guys assuming they’re going after I*an? With WHAT? Only drones & kablooies from the air? Aren’t we maxed out, horribly so, with mere ground forces?
What.A.Mess! Please, Hillary and every other Dem. candidate. Stay awake! WILL YOU!?! This is NOT a parlor game of dominoes!
oddmommy @ 26
Here is his answer:
http://kucinich.house.gov/News…..ntID=75275
Once again, he stands firmly on solid priciples rather than what may be “politically correct”. Kucinich is one of the few candidates that we can trust!
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 194
Obvoiusly they don’t. Hell Congress fears them so little it is willing to deliberatly poke a stick in thier collective eye!
Many american jews were and are a part of the neo-con movement. This does not mean that Israel supports everything that they dream up. Israel is quite diverse politically and there are likely the same differences in views there as here.
oddmommy @ 144
OddMommy, I’m certain my contempt for A*PAC is not anti-Semetic: the majority of American Jewish people don’t agree with A*PAC’s holy dogma of persecuting Palestinians.
One of the three reasons Bin Laden cited to Robert Fisk for his war on America is US money and muscle behind Isr*l’s illegal occupation of Palestine (viz UN Ref 242).
The very policies A*PAC advocates….led to the attack upon US soil.
And we’re anti-Semitic for daring to observe who created the policies – and why?
And A*PAC wants US Prez candidates to keep on supporting the war crimes they advocate – as well as start an illegal war upon Iran.
Israelis criticize AIPAC – is it anti-Semitic for them to do so, or only for us here at the Lake?
Can we check with the Jewish girl from Skokie who married me (for awhile) and educated me about AIPAC’s role in badgering US polticians to pay for the bulldozers that crushed Rachel Corrie – and the munitions rained upon Gaza and fired into West Bank crowds?
Or is the Jewish woman from Skokie anti-Semitic too?
We could ask my former spouse’s great-grandparents the anti-Semitism as reflected in her views on A*PAC …if we had a time machine.
Set for before her great-grandparetns perished in the Holocaust.
But – she must be anti-Semitic, because she criticized A*PAC.
And – by your logic – so must I.
Hmm. Guess this explains why I never got to like gefilte fish at all those Passover meals.
realworld @ 199
If you’re going to make the accusation that “A while back there was a thread about the fact that the Jews run the media and that is why it is so corrupt” you’d better well back it up with a link, and you’d better make it clear whether the site host was responsible or not. Meanwhile, the “Jewish Bankers” insinuation is just a slur and a non-sequitur.
Evidently, Hillary and Bill own Blackwater and Halliburton stock.
The reason she voted for war with Iran is because she WANTS war with Iran. She must, like Bush, think that setting fire to the entire Middle East will be somehow GOOD for the citizens of the U.S. The only reason I can think of that she would vote this way is that she will profit personally and politically from war with Iran. She, like most politicians, sees the ‘big picture’ of global situations. For once, I’d like a president who can see the ‘little picture’ of parentless children, childless parents, brotherless sisters, and crippled men and women.
Elect Hillary at your own risk. Beneath that female exterior lies the heart of a warrior. At least a warrior that is not afraid to send other parents children to their deaths for a ‘policy’.
rwcole @ 210
goodness, RW….I didn’t know you were Israeli!
An excellent recapitulation of Clinton’s tortuous rationale for her votes, scarecrow. It neatly sums up why some of us will not vote for her under any circumstances even if it comes down in the end to the possibility of who will nominate future Supreme Court nominees. I’m glad you added opportunism as a possible reason for her votes as well as flawed judgment because you put your finger on the mark there.
I’ve also noticed a number of new people here saying things to discourage the Democrats.
Divide and conquer, worked so well in the early 30’s.
it is also very unclear that Israel benefits from the radicalization of religious extremists in the ME. I’m not saying that the Israeli govt may not be fool enough to thing they do, but the reality is they don’t, they are just postponing to a day when they will face a higher level of risk and danger. And there are many many Israelis who realize this.
Selise –
… but i think there are two issues here. one is clinton’s vote – stupid and irresponsible. and the other is that she has lots of dems agreeing with her, which is why all these bills have passed – and that is what puts us in increased danger, not clinton’s vote alone.
yep.
jayt @ 78
Problem being with this assumption is that she has to many high powered men(DLC) marketing her. Just like Cheney has his shadow government pulling Bush’s strings, she too will be guided by ruthless men.
She will be another puppet on a string President for the capital and ruling class.
I personally don’t want another 8 years of this Bush/Clinton dynasty.
Seems like moveon is in high gear. Something about those resolutions seems to be lighting a fire underneath them. I applaud that. I was explaining to someone the other day what Clinton was talking about in his recent interviews. She found the Betrayus-Petraeus theme pretty funny and spunky. Anyway. New Pol. This time they want photos.
I am late to this discussion, but I have never heard anyone on either side (D or R) explain how a policy of “name calling” advances our national interest. Would someone please ask Hillary and her ilk?
rwcole @ 211
Does anyone ever consider Iran’s rhetoric and actions from the point of view of the very real threats to Iran represented by I*r*el and the United States? Of course you can say they started it, but do you buy that?
OT: Regarding the hot button topic of the influence of Israel on U.S. gov’t foreign policy, it is difficult to make the case, once it’s established and understood that Israel’s primary rôle is to serve in behalf of Western powers as a bridgehead — just one of many — in the Levant. The Israelis are being used for empire or what counts for empire in this day and age, obsessed with possessing and controlling oil reserves around the globe.
realworld @ 199
…I didn’t even get to your second paragraph, which is inflammatory.
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 179
Re-order the list and then I think you’ve got it!
mommy
Hardly- I’m just tryin to make sense out of the issue.
hackworth @ 212
and thank you.
Peterr @ 187
i’ve only figured out about 10% of how to link to thomas… but even that bit is extremely useful. if you want more clues, here’s a diary i wrote last month that you can use to see how i linked to pages of the congressional record (in order to quote from statements on the house floor).
egregious @ 226
Picking a candidate that represents us is not ‘divide and conquer’. Even for the lousy slate of candidates, there are still one or two that are better than Hillary Clinton and Obama.
I say pick Gravel or Kucinich. Or even Dodd.
after realizing which Democratic party candidates are ‘Bush-lite’ or ‘Bushworld clones’ the positive thing to do is find a candidate who represents your views more closely and work for that person excitedly
Also, can someone knowledgeable explain to me the difference between a “foreign” lobbying organization and what A*P*C does? Should they not be required to register as a foreign organization – even if they are HQ’d in the US, they are still working on behalf of a foreign power.
David @ 225
who knows what the hell she really believes? She is motivated by pure political power. We’ll have no idea how she will govern until she’s in the oval office.
oddmommy:
My fifth category of evidence would be the role “allied” intelligence, i.e., Israeli intelligence plays in our political deliberations. The most prominent example is our official national intelligence estimate of when Iran could have a nuclear weapon. It was ten years as of 2005, but all political actors speak and act as though the various 1-3 year Israeli estimates were the only legitimate ones.
kdh22 @ 234
I guess to sum it all up: Patriarchy!!!
looseheadprop @ 214
I think you guys are just fine. I share your concern about the danger of “pox on both” movenents and, in fact, have been worried about that for ages.
It seems all to easy for most folks to fall into that trap. I refuse to do so. It would spell certain defeat in ‘08 imho.
rwcole @ 208
Wasn’t there just an inspection finished which concluded exactly the opposite? And that Iran has agreed to continued inspections?
looseheadprop @ 214
This is an interesting problem. I edited the last paragraph five times. Tomorrow it would be different.
I can’t let this vote pass unnoticed, merely because if given a choice between Guiliani making Supreme Court appointments and Hillary making them, even a scarecrow votes for Hillary.
But we’re not in the general; we’re in pre-primaries, and i don’t get to vote in those (Massachusetts is irrelevant). Can taking a stand on this now move the debate? And move the party and its eventual candidate?
Also, I’ve never said one word in favor of a quixotic third party effort.
egregious @ 227
bingo!
have any of you ever read about the Isr*el* ‘art student’ files at antiwar.com?
okay, they are ‘libertarians’ but this story i.e. a ’spy’ story (maybe) is just fascinating.
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 219
That would be my take on any new members to the nukes club. Not gonna risk incineration by recklessly setting off their tiny, hard-acquired inventory on the offense.
rwcole @ 193
that’s a good point, could be… although i’d be more likely to see things the way you describe here, if i didn’t think clinton was such a hawk in general.
on a more hopeful note (yes, i know you’re shocked to see me write that *g*), george kenney interviewed gary sick (*) this week just after ahmadinejad’s talk at columbia and after talking with ahmadinejad for 3 hours in a small group.
next week is bob altemeyer and the following week joe margulies
……
(*) Professor Gary Sick is a senior research scholar at SIPA’s Middle East Institute, and an adjunct professor of international affairs at SIPA. [SIPA = school of international affairs, columbia university]
He is the author of All Fall Down: America’s Tragic Encounter With Iran (Random House 1985) and October Surprise: America’s Hostages in Iran and the Election of Ronald Reagan (Random House 1991).
Professor Sick served on the National Security Council under Presidents Ford, Carter, and Reagan. He was the principal White House aide for Iran during the Iranian Revolution and the hostage crisis. Sick is a captain (ret.) in the U.S. Navy, with service in the Persian Gulf, North Africa, and the Mediterranean. He was the deputy director for International Affairs at the Ford Foundation from 1982 to 1987, where he was responsible for programs relating to U.S. foreign policy. He is also a member of the board of Human Rights Watch in New York and the chairman of the Advisory Committee of Human Rights Watch/Middle East. He was the executive director of Gulf/2000, an international research project on political, economic, and security developments in the Persian Gulf, being conducted at Columbia University from 1994 to 1995 on behalf of the W. Alton Jones and Rockefeller Foundations.
The “non-binding” issue raised by Peter and others is an interesting one. I’ve submitted the issue to Glenn Greenwald, whose expertise in this area can’t be doubted. I submitted the issue to him thusly:
Glenn raised the point (as have various commenters on this issue at DKos and elsewhere) that the WHEREAS clause that conceded bush’s constitutional authority to deter terrorist attacks is non-binding because it was merely a WHEREAS clause. This is technically true, but I believe in this instance it is irrelevant.
Were this an instance where the legislation at issue defined the rights of citizens, and not the relative powers of the coordinate branches of government, a claimant could indeed argue that the WHEREAS clause was non-binding. A court would be free to consider or not consider the WHEREAS clause, and could restrict itself to the binding provisions of the legislation at issue.
However, because the issue is one of the relative powers of the two branches, it is almost certain that the Supreme Court (and virtually certain that this particular Supreme Court) would deem this matter to fall within the “political issue doctrine” of S.C. jurisdiction. Law professor Thomas Baker wrote an excellent paper dealing with this issue, and characterized the various formulations of the political issue doctrine thusly:
The Court can indeed rule on the extent of the constitutional powers of the Commander in Chief in cases where the issue is the impact on U.S. citizens, as it did when it limited Truman’s power to resolve the steel strike issue in the early ’50’s and Roosevelt’s decision to intern Japanese Americans during WW II. However, in this case the issue is strictly the relative powers of two coordinate branches of government, and it is almost inconceivable that the Roberts/Scalia court would deem this issue justiciable.
This is a political issue. Can Congress, having overwhelmingly conceded in the Iraq AUMF bush’s vast constitutional power to deter terrorist attacks, now reverse itself and claim that bush’s power in this regard is not constitutionally based? The answer, I think, is clear: congress cannot as a political matter reverse itself on this. Or perhaps I should say that this Congress will not reverse itself on this issue.
I am a corporate lawyer, and must defer absolutely to Glenn’s expertise in constitutional matters. I’d be interested in his view on this. If Glenn responds, I’ll post his response here.
David @ 224
I agree, but with one “correction”. In lieu of “somehow GOOD for the citizens of the U.S.” make that “Good for some of the citizens…”
alank @ 234
that’s a good point, and another reason the anti-A*PAC hysteria drives me crazy….just who controls who, in the US-Israel relationship?
rwcole @ 236
I know, I was just being a tad snarky.
egregious @ 227
I think the time is past for this kind of tsk-tsking is long past.
brendan @ 222
If there is a good way to search comments on old threads I’d be happy to find it. I can tell you who made the comment but I did not think that was appropriate. This was not made by a site moderator but connecting a claim that jews run the media to a potential claim that jews run the banks is a non-sequitur but there is lots of very unpleasant historical precedent for it.
[This discussion is heading out of bounds and ends here. Everyone back off, please. scarecrow]
God help me for jumping into this but
A*p*c has an agenda and they have real power and they use it:
just an example
my bold
rwcole @ 210
evidence please?
Great discussion, firedogs. We’ve solved another one. On to Christy’s next thread.
Good morning, everyone.
Great post, Scarecrow. Jane, you add some additional information worth chewing over.
Hillary Clinton is a very smart, articulate and prepared candidate. I really want to like her. I really want to support her run. For many years, I thought she would be a very good President.
But, I just can’t get over these issues. I can’t tell if she really is a hawkish moderate, or if she’s just pretending to be one. She clearly appears to be appeasing many of the big lobbies for support and votes (health insurance industry, those who want to see Isr*el defended by attacking other countries in the region…).
I’m not sure which bothers me more: the notion that she’s further to the right than I’d anticipated, or the notion that she is simply pretending to be that way in order to curry support.
Either way, I can’t see myself supporting her for the primary. Especially after this vote – there is no reasonable excuse for it, other than what Jane suggested (and I don’t find the idea of promoting war to court Lieberman’s supporters as acceptable). I suppose one other reason she may have done it is so she looks “tough”, which, as a female, is something she’ll be scrutinized over moreso than her male competitors. Still, I find it revolting, that provoking and promoting war is a political strategy.
As “ifthethunderdontgetya” said, I will support her 100% if she gets the nomination. I wouldn’t be shocked if she doesn’t get it. Iowa could be very, very interesting. I have a feeling that, when we get closer to the early primaries/caucus votes, Edwards is going to do surprisingly better than both Clinton and Obama.
Scarecrow @ 262
:-)
glad we wrapped that one up in record time!
:-)
realworld:
Adress such comments when they arise instead of knocking down straw men and tarring people here with guilt by assocation.
It is clear from both of her votes that she wanted both Hussein and Ahmadinijad gone. In the case of Hussein, she enabled it to happen, but blamed it on Bush. If/when Iran is attacked by Bush, she will not be able to squirm out of it. She would be better off to just say that she wants regime change in Iran. Be honest. It is the dishonesty of her position for political purposes that is most troubling.
As far as keeping troops in Iraq, I do think she is correct when she says that she doesn’t know what she’ll find when/if she is elected, and she will have to deal with whatever the facts are. I don’t think she wants continuous war.
Prior to the invasion of Iraq, I read a very long analysis of what would probably happen, and it has. It was by the War College or something, I think. Why did she not inform herself prior to voting? Or did she?
Same with Iran. There is tons of analysis out there as to the disaster that will happen if the US attacks Iran. How can you vote to enable W/Dick to go ahead with their agenda, when all of the analysis is already out there. The reason? Because she wants it to happen.
Elliott @ 260
It’s not a very good example. It’s completely subjective in tone.
As “ifthethunderdontgetya” said, I will support her 100% if she gets the nomination. I wouldn’t be shocked if she doesn’t get it. Iowa could be very, very interesting. I have a feeling that, when we get closer to the early primaries/caucus votes, Edwards is going to do surprisingly better than both Clinton and Obama.
I do hope you are right LandofTheFree
Scarecrow @ 250
Sorry – I wasn’t clear – I was absolutely not referring to you – your comment was just a handy place to hang my observation.
Here is a picture of Bush and Hillary confering
realworld @ 229
the radicalization of religious extremists in the ME does, however, empower a segment of the israeli poltical elite.
just like here in the usa, that segment may take actions that are bad for their country but good for their poltical ambition.
selise @ 261
rwcole: “Iran is a much bigger threat to peace in the region”. How so? How so more than us? I assume you don’t want to attack Iran, so why regurgitate these absurd premises?
Eight years until they have a nuclear weapon, IF they are really intent on getting one.
Scarecrow
Thank you. This is a wonderful, thought-provoking post. I wouldn’t change a word. We need to get down and dirty and wrangle if we are to understand these complicated issues and candidates.
That’s healthy, wise and necessary.
I DO have a problem with some people’s tendency to throw up their hands and summarily blame repubbles AND Democrats equally – no explanations, no qualifiers, no notice or credit given to those who ARE doing a good job.
THAT, I have a problem with.
realworld @ 199
Yes, too often when persons refer to A*P*c, it is vague and sounds like International Jewish Conspiracy. I sometimes avoid threads about HoJoe, because too often it seems people think that his raison d’etre is Isr*el. This is not the case. Having gotten to know the Holy Man all too well, I’d say he’s just corrupt, and others that knew him way back when will say that he sniffs the political winds and goes which way will benefit him the most.So you see the whole A*P*C assumption actually has a whiff of anti-semitism, AND misleads about the nature of the creature that is Holy Joe.
This whole constant controversy could be avoided if persons tried to see what it’s like to sit in someone’s shoes (sensitivity) and try to understand what a turn off this vague conspiracy crap is (feels like a slap in the face) and be more specific. Because too often the dialogue has a whiff of International Jewish Conspiracy, and/or Yellow Peril when it comes to China. Just a vague paranoia, nothing specific. It’s hurtful to some of us.
David Olsen @ 234
no.
The discussion about A*P** etc is veering towards out of bounds, both in content and tone. Everyone please take a breath, a step back, and go say hello to Christy. Thanks.
Scarecrow.
OK – I’m ancient – I still remember fallout shelters and kiss-your-ass goodbye drills and wondering why my parents didn’t have a fallout shelter.
(Living a few miles from Caltech and JPL, we’d have been incinerated anyway. My parents were too kind to tell me.)
And the Russians still have enough missles to melt our asses (they’d have fewer nukes, but the Bushies didn’t fully fund the effort to secure them).
OK – so Bushie policy doesn’t even bother to do everything possible to secure Russian fissile material.
And yet the US has lived for half a century with a world of nukes – pointed at us.
Isotopic fingerprinting means any fissile material can be traced back to enrichement – so the canard about Iran making a bomb that could be secretly detonated in the US is risible: with isotopic analysis, origin of the bomb is no secret.
Soviets knew this too.
And we’ve lived with Russian nukes for fifty years – cause both sides will blow up the other if they’re nuked.
Just like America would turn Iran into a sheet of glass the second Iran’s isotopic signature was detected after a blast.
So Iran’s nukes don’t change US security.
Yet an illegal attack upon Iran that will sacrifice our nation’s own men and women in Iraq – that will make us far less safe.
So attacking Iran – when US Pres candidates support it, who do they serve?
Who benefits?
Why did W tell the country to go shopping following 9/11 instead of mobilizing the country?
After Pearl Harbor, the country was immediately mobilized, because there was a different threat. In the case of 9/11, W/Dick decided to do it “their” way, because…..because why? Why would they choose to tell the people to move along and go shopping.
They had a plan. They want the oil. They all want the oil. None of this is about democracy. It is about securing the region for oil for the future for the US and it’s allies.
Hillary threw the “progressive” crowd a bone when she voted against the Move on amendment.
Why HRC and the rest did not listen to Iaea’s El Baradei (who told the world that the Niger Documents were flat out false along with the other WMD “cherry picked” intelligence instead of the “cakewalk in Iraq” crowd who she had to know had a huge agenda. Hell they sent her husband letters back in the 90’s asking him to invade Iraq.
Why did she ignore General Zinni, Zbigniew Brezinski, Madeline Albright, General Swarzkopf, Flynt Leverett, retired and present time CIA analysts, Scott Ritter etc etc.
Jesus Mary and Joseph there were crowds of experts warning against the invasion of Iraq.
Her endlessly repeated excuses “if only I knew then what I know now” horseshit just does not get it.
All of the same folks who warned against the pre-emptive invasion of Iraq are encouraging diplomacy with Iran, are telling us that the claims about Iran are not based on hard evidence. She will not be able to use these lame excuses again.
If the Bush administration uses this amendment to inch their way into an illegal,immoral and pre-emptive strike on Iran…Hillary will know for sure that she “cheney’d” herself with the vote for the Kyl/Lieberman amendment.
Or know that the A*P*C lobby just took her out of the long running.
Take note Hillary. Republican Senator Lugar voted against this amendment.
I say we take off and nuke the entire
site from orbit. It’s the only
way to be sure.
selise @ 271
Well put. But I think the Israelis in power arguably understand their national interests quite well, or at least better than we do. They’re certainly acting with the political endorsement of their voters: witness the popularity of their bombing of Lebanon — that popularity only soured because their ground invasion was defeated.
I have been accused in some past exchanges (not here, actually) of “demonizing” or “hating” Israel, or thinking their crimes somehow unique. I actually recognize that they have national interests that might make war a readier option than for the United States, which is big, rich and protected by two oceans. Geography is enough to understand that. It’s precisely why I don’t want their particular estimations of the risk of and benefit of wars of conquest or prevention to be conflated with ours.
egregious @ 229
Yup.
Fortunately, the primary season is when we’re supposed to learn more about the candidates, we rip them apart, and then support the nominee. I don’t think criticism of the candidates makes them weaker – it makes them stronger, as long as fictitious stories aren’t created and given a long-term shelf life. (Think John Kerry’s Swiftboaters).
So, we may seem divided now, but I expect we’ll come together to support the nominee. Whoever gets the nod will be far better than anyone the Republicans or any third parties nominate.
landofthefree @ 283
I disagree. I don’t go along with the idea that a Democrat can threaten nuclear war and get my vote just because she’s a Democrat. I find I’m paying more attention to the Republican race right now than the Democratic race, they are talking much more about issues like war and the economy and less about people’s gender and hair styles, which I find refreshing. If Clinton is the nominee, I’ll probably go for the Republican.
selise @ 276
The controversy over translations of what Iranians, Ahmadinejad, have actually said, and how it was translated makes me suspicious.Not that Ahmadinejad is a nice person. I think every little bit of “info” pertaining to Iran fed to the media has to be scrutinized. All hype. Especially since this administration likes to sell wars in september.
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 269
I hate to say it, but I really do think that when we get to the point where people are casting their votes, many will be hesitant to cast them for Obama (due to his lack of experience and his race) and Clinton (due to lack of trustworthiness and her gender). Edwards doesn’t have a lot of negatives out there. He’s been through the process before, and he’s playing the right populist cards. Most importantly, most Republicans I know have a very favorable opinion of him. This will be on the minds of every primary/caucus voter.
FYI: I haven’t picked a horse in this race yet… I’m still learning, but I’ve been leaning toward Edwards and Dodd.
So, we may seem divided now, but I expect we’ll come together to support the nominee. Whoever gets the nod will be far better than anyone the Republicans or any third parties nominate.
Yep
Scarecrow @ 277
Except Scarecrow. Some of this A*P*C veering toward conspiracy has been hurtful for a lot of us. I will say no more. I hate this conversation. But an airing out . . .
Scarecrow @ 277
The issue of AIPAC frequently veers out of bounds, focusing on issues such as alleged “control” of media and allegations of dual allegiance. I absolutely agree with Scarecrow in this regard.
But I believe AIPAC has also veered out of bounds on at least two issues in recent months. Twice it has lobbied to protect bush’s prerogative to act unilaterally in the middle east, without congressional approval. The first was when AIPAC lobbied to remove the provision from the supplemental funding bill that would have required congressional approval for an attack on Iran. The second was the Kyl-Lieberman resolution earlier this week, when it lobbied to designate the IRG a terrorist organization, thereby arguably permitting bush to invoke his constitutional power to deter terrorist attacks as a basis for unilaterally taking military action against Iran.
AIPAC has every right to advocate a muscular and interventionist role for the U.S. in the middle east. I think it is politically unconscionable for anyone, however, to advocate bush’s right to act unilaterally, given his outrageous and illegal war in Iraq.
Lobby against Iran – fine. Lobby for U.S. intervention – fine. I disagree in each case, but that’s their right. However, to lobby to vest in bush this unilateral right to strike Iran is, in my view, unconscionable.
mui @275:
I think you overstate your case, but I actually agree with you about Lieberman. The presumption of pro-Israeli motive in his case is unfounded (not to say it’s true or false, but I don’t any of us know) and arises from a prejudice — and by “prejudice” I mean a pre-judging. I think comments to the effect that he’s “doing it for Israel” are too unwarranted to be worth the bad feelings they stir. After all, we don’t make the same accusation of Kyl.
Scarecrow @ 276
with all due respect, Scarecrow, I think this is a discussion that is long past due.
And for all the heat it has generated, it has been more civil than others that I’ve seen.
Finally, I know this is Your Thread, but I really don’t appreciate being told to “move on.”
Edwards just applied for federal funds- which means that he won’t be competitive with Hillary and Obama cash-wise. He’s my favorite- but his chances keep slipping. VP candidate again perhaps.
Scarecrow @ 250
thank you. we don’t help ourselves by living in denial about what is true (there was a kyl/lieberman admendment, clinton did vote “yes”). i appreciate that our primary loyality, to the best of our ability, is the truth. our political choices are about what we do in response to our understanding of the real world.
a commitment to reality based politics is not always pleasant.
landofthefree @ 286
I think Edwards is his own worst enemy right now. Instead of coming out and saying clearly and forcefully what he believes, he’s putting on the nice guy pretty boy act. That won’t play well in the midwest, and it won’t win him any votes from swing conservatives. He needs to go back to how he was campaigning a year ago or he’s going to come in a mushy 2nd or 3rd in Iowa, in my opinion.
kirk murphy @ 278
Duck and cover.
Toby Wollin @ 203
Here is just one example of their influence. Rosen (at one time the director of A*P*C) and Weisman (also an official at A*P*C) “allegedly” passed classified intelligence about Iran to Israeli officials. We have yet to find out how that effected or undemined US National Security. Read the indictment
http://www.globalsecurity.org/…..ug2005.htm
Check out the A*P*C’s website http://www.aipac.org/
they have persistently pushed for aggressive action towards Iran, based on claims that have not been substantiated Their action list is always focused on Iran( has been for the last four years).
At the last A*P*C conference that Ariel Sharon attended the conference was focused on Iran, (a hollywood style set of a nuclear site in Iran was set up for people to go through). This conference was focused on fomenting the hostile and aggressive actions towards Iran. At that conference Ariel Sharon, Richard Perle and others who are apart of this lobby pushed hard for more aggressive action towards Iran…based on what? They used extremely inflammatory language about Iran, that Iaea’s El Baradei has begged people to stop using.
These are just a few examples of how A*P*C influences our foreign policy in a disproportionate and unbalanced way.
mui @ 288
I’m aware of the hurtful aspects, which is why I ask everyone to step back. We have enough pain to deal with on many other fronts. Take care.
My uncle built our house in the fifties. He built three with an identical floor plan- there was supposed to be a “shelter” at the back of the one car garage—in the end he put a window in it and called it a storage room. A family could have lasted about an hour in there.
brendan @ 290
Well Iran is Cheney’s wet dream. I do get turned off by your agressive tone. Why is it so important to you to prove that you are right and the rest of us with “feelings” are hysterical. This is not meant to bait. I am not being emotional here. I just feel like a little circumspection on your part might not be a bad thing.
Kathleen @ 295
hey Kathleen!
I was wondering where you’ve been.
:)
My vote goes to any democrat who will get the troops out of Iraq now! cleve
If we continue to step back on this issue one of the most serious “root causes” of anger and hatred towards the US and Israel, the brutal and unfair treatment of the Palestinians will never be dealt with fairly. We can continue to sweep this one under the rug, but the anger will continue to grow.
This conversation has, can and will be done in a respectful way, the FDL moderators and bloggers will make sure of that.
Scarecrow @ 287
i expect to vote D in the general, even though it will pain me. all you have to do is say those two magic words, “supreme court”.
but, the way things are going this year, i expect a lot of democrats and independents won’t (even though they’d be happy to vote for D if they thought it was someone who wasn’t a pro-corporate hawk). probably especially true in “safe” states like MA… and i don’t think it helps to berate people inorder to get them to vote the way we want. it just drives them further away.
the problem isn’t that some people won’t vote or will vote third party. imo, the problem is when the D party doesn’t give these people a candidate or a party they feel they can support. so, i blame the cadidates and the party, not the voters.
thomas c @289
That is the way to talk about A*P*C.
I dispute a point, though. Saying A*P*C “controls the media” may not be accurate, but it’s just unrealistic to say the “Israel lobby” (admittedly a nebulous thing hard to define) doesn’t have a profound influence. It insults my intelligence, in fact. Perhaps you’d agree with the formulation that the media are “neoconservative”, if that euphemism is more diplomatic?
I can’t look at the Fred Hiatt’s editorial pages, small but infuential magazines like the National Review and TNR, the omnipresence of Richard Perle (pre invasion, at least) and Bill Kristol and Krauthammer on tv, the Sulzberger-Judith Miller affair, not to mention Tom Friedman-Bill Safire -Abe Rosenthal-David Brooks, the empire of Conrad Black, the Daily Telegraph, the NYSun, MEMRI, etc. and not see a unanimity about the advisability of Middle East wars that I attribute in part to the ethnicity or national affiliations of the contributors. I understand that to some degree these people are just ad-men for power, but to some degree I conclude they’re doing it on their own out of their own convictions. Call it prejudice and dismiss it, if you want: I won’t have much more of a retort than what I just laid out.
Odd Mommy…been around. More time at some other blogs.
Sure hope the Bush administration does not kill more people in Iran.
So terribly terribly sad for the people of Iraq. I am deeply sad and ashamed of what my country has done to them.
rwcole @ 211
If they are, they are not the only one. Personally I doubt that they are or that they are anywhere near achieving one. They do have the right to pursue nuclear technology – it is not a crime. Why should a nuclear Iran be a bigger threat to peace than a nuclear Israel? Would there have been peace in the ME over the last 40 years if there was no nuclear Israel?
I still wonder how extending the war to Iran is in Israel’s existential interest. Doesn’t make any sense to me.
oddmommy @ 300
Hi oddmommy ;-)
Oops. My apologies for misdirecting people. The next post is Jane’s not Christy’s. Sorry about that.
mui @299:
I don’t know what you’re complaining about specifically when you say I’m aggressive. I assume it’s my anger about a general assertion that unnamed commenters are suggestion “international conspiracy”. Otherwise, in responses to you and oddmommy, for example, I try to be diplomatic. I even concede a point.
What’s with the asterisks – “A*P*C” and “I*ra*l” and the like? Can anyone explain that?
At the heart of this discussion is the issue as to whether the nuclear club should allow Iran- or any other country who has the desire- to join up. It’s not an issue of Fairness or international law- it’s an issue of what makes the world more secure.
thomas c @ 310
Gets caught in the filters otherwise.
rwcole @ 311
If I was Iran I’d want nukes too after what the US has done to it.
sona @ 306
It’s doesn’t have to be in its “existential interest” to nevetheless be in its “interest”. A couple reasons:
1. Nuclear monopoly
2. Hezbollah
3. U.S.-Israeli domination of Middle-East oil (the cake and flower petals scenario for Iraq, for example, had a pipeline going from it through Israel).
twȝk @ 312
What filters? I’m not a newbie, but I really don’t know what this is about.
thomas c @ 315
the spam filters, for p*rn and p*ker and whatever else the NSA will be attracted to ;)
Hillary is foolish for believing her vote if she does. She is smart tactically as she has a whopping lead – I hope she loses.
As for the debate I think they all did fairly poorly so I guess I will stick with Edward.
Watched the pathetic site that was the Rep debate on minority/economics and the lot they had was sad saying sad things and the saddests part was the three – four main sad candidates did not even show up.
twȝk @ 316
Seriously? Damn, that’s depressing.
mui @ 306
Hey Sister/Brother!
So nice to hear some voices of reason chiming in on this difficult subject.
This is Clinton: Mistake after mistake and excuse after excuse. This isn’t the first time and it won’t be the last. Yet she’ll try to twist it to get people to understand what she did. I have little to no confidence in her.
oddmommy @ 319
oddmommy, mui=sister in cantonese. Always nice to tag team with you.
thomas c @ 318
well the spam sure is depressing! I wouldn’t take the rest too seriously tho :)
And Edwards went on the record at the debate at the latest saying what he would have done.
Obama was a duck.
rwcole @ 311
Maybe for some parties, but it’s also an issue of what makes the U.S. and Israel more powerful.
peanutbutter @ 18
You are not required to vote for ANY candidate. Or you can flip a coin, go by first or last name alphabetical order, or any other scheme.
I will NOT vote for Hillary. This is a stone-cold set of facts: Bill Clinton created the illegal and immoral rendition program of outsourced torture. Bush has simply extended it to its logical conclusion. Hillary supports it (and torture…she has expressed her “belief” in the nonsensical “ticking timebomb” fable…). Bush is all war all the time. Hillary supports all war all the time and has now voted TWICE, unapologetically, for more war. Hillary supports enforced profits for health insurance companies. The CORE of her so-called “universal healthcare” plan is to FORCE everyone to buy health insurance, thus forcing people keep insurance companies not only in business, but requires insurance company profits. She thus supports what SHE created: Managed Care which is an evil bane and pox on our society. Under her pro-corporate healthcare plan, we will all be forced to pay insurance companies to deny us coverage and deny us meds because they are first and foremost concerned about maximizing shareholder value. Her healthcare plan is to maximize corporate profits by minimizing actual medical care.
Sorry, but the likelihood of her appointing pro-choice SCROTUS judges in no way makes up for the extreme damage she is going to ensure continues to be done to the American people and the world. She IS the DLC. She IS the Israeli lobby. She IS for empire.
I will never ever ever vote for her. Until I actually see the ballot to see what 3rd party candidates appear thereon, I cannot say yet whether I will simply abstain from voting for a President or if I will be voting for a 3rd party candidate. As a matter of fact, if Nader is the ONLY 3rd party candidate on the ballot, I WILL vote for him. Period. If there are any others, like a (different) green, a socialist, a libertarian, then that is the order that I assign my vote regardless of who the actual candidate is in name.
brendan @ 308
If you are referring to the above comment where you recite a bunch of Jewish names and “concede” that you assume they act the way they do because they’re Jewish, rather than a whole host of other reasons that may motive them — thanks for that concession.It proves my point.
However, it also scares the shit out of me, as it should out of any decent person.
oddmommy @ 326
EPU once wrote Yellow Peril = International Jewish Conspiracy.
sona @ 306
long term it’s peace that is in everybody’s best interest.
unofortunately there is probably A. a genuine fear of anti-semitism of the lunatic variety but B. that is probably the ‘cover argument’ which conceals racist, zionistland-grabs and ‘future considerations’ involving water, oil, etc…
EPU once wrote Yellow Peril = International Jewish Conspiracy.
****************
that is, no doubt, satirical commentary on how conspiracies are named.
Praedor Atrebates @ 325
I always thought that a soccer mom would be the next in line for a dictatorship!
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 329
of course. I gather he was turned off by conspiracies as well.
oddmommy @ 326
Why do I not genuinely believe that it “scares the shit out of you”? The prejudice I frankly acknowledge is that I automatically suspect an op-ed writer or an editor (say, Marty Peretz, who omitted) who is Jewish and — the AND here is crucial — who supports the Iraq war and/or an attack on Iran is doing out of loyalty to Israel. In fact this prejudice is to my detriminent, as I acknowledge up above: in the end how can I know their motives, and how can I determine whether their motives are different from, say, John Kyl? That’s what a prejudice is. I’ve gotten the prejudice from an adult life reading the Times and the Post. I plead guilty. I try not to let prejudice inform my actions and political decisions. More importantly, I don’t believe that Jews generally, or in the majority, want these wars, and the reason I don’t is simple: because that belief would be demonstrably, objectively false.
I don’t expect you to like it, or even respond to it, but at least I’m being frank. If the site moderators want to strike my previous comment and exclude me from further participation, I’ll actually understand. But your comments about “feeling” prompted me to reveal what’s in my black, black heart.
That all said, however, it’s fair and reasonable and necessary to attribute the motive of Israeli advocacy, particularly when you’re talking about politicians and bureaucrats in national security positions. For example, Richard Perle is on the board of the Jerusalem Post; Feith was a partner in a Jerusalem law firm; Wurmser is married to an Israeli, not the least of his Israeli affiliations. Above all, Israel’s principle lobbying arm, as mentioned above, is an espionage enterprise: any American who belongs to it or who, for example, advocates releasing Pollard, is acting not with “dual loyalty” but with exclusive loyalty to Israeli. It’s simply dishonest to deny that.
brendan @ 332 –
i don’t think marty peretz supports wars against iraq and iran because he is jewish, i think it’s because he’s an anti-muslim bigot. and i don’t think it’s fair to blame it on him being jewish.
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 328
I am aware of the rationale of longterm control over resources in the ME. It’s still inane logic. We only need to look at the demographics of the ME. There is no way Israel can dominate the region in the long term.
How in God’s name can any self respecting Democrat support any measure hatched by Joe Lieberman? This vote speaks volumes.
Adie @ 206
http://www.senate.gov/legislat….._110_1.htm
KayInMaine @ 146
KayInMaine @ 146
Roger that Kay. I have 4 boys ages 11-6. There’s no way they are going to fight for these insane people and their insane policies. We’ll take them out of the country first.
selise @ 333
Neither of us knows why. Though it’s not an outlandish speculation, you’re right: it’s not “fair”, in the sense it’s not demonstrable enough to assert in print or on a tv show.
In that sense, my apoligies to Scarecrow and the moderators are sincere: I shouldn’t get down to the level of discussing my “feelings” and prejudices and lowering the standards here. In my defense, I don’t think it’s something I’ve done in the past, though to “mui” it’s all the same: I’m equivalent to a torch-bearing pogromchik who “scares the shit” out of her.
A*P*C?
ISR*L?
Why the asterisks?
brendan @ 332
I accede to a similar “prejudice”. If a bunch of Irish-Americans are all on about American support for Ireland, I automatically assume that it is because, you know, they’re friggin of Irish decent! If a Jew is all on about US support for Israel, then I get to assume it is because they’re Jewish. Now, for the NON-Jews that are so friggin’ pro-Israel, I accuse them of being fundi Xtians. I ASSUME them to be fundies. I can also (likely safely) assume that they hate science and believe that humans were created rather than evolved. I assume their support of Israel is actually a dagger in their back because they want to bring on the pickle-lips. Thus, in short, my assumptions: Jews in favor of war with Iraq AND now with Iran are also rabidly pro-Israel (no matter what). NON-Jews that are likewise so foolishly disposed are Fundie Xtians. Safe bet and likely to be correct 95% of the time. That is a type of prejudice that I can live with, frankly. It isn’t iron-clad, mind. A pro-Iraq, pro-Iran warmonger who is Jewish might be able to convince me that they are not simply blindly pro-Israel and a non-Jew is is likewise disposed may be able to convince me that they are not Fundie Xtians (they’d have to take the “lord’s” name in MAJOR vein, have extramarital or premarital sex, espouse pro-gay sentiments, and declare with their hand on a bible that Darwin was dead-on absolutely correct in his simple observations of fact and state that there is no historical evidence outside a bible that Jesus actually ever existed).
elef @ 339
Sorry – just scanned through the last 50 or so comments and realized this has already been asked and answered. But it IS annoying!
First, can we recognize this resolution as what it really was? It was a wedge issue designed to make Democratic candidates look bad no matter what they did. That’s why Obama sat it out, I suspect.
Second, it was toothless. It doesn’t call for any action and the most dangerous paragraphs were removed. Yes, Webb has a good point about designating a sovreign nation’s army as a terrorist organization. But not approving the resolution would not force the Bushies to be more conciliatory. NOTHING Congress does these days has much of an effect on the Bushy behavior. To stop them is going to take more than a sense of the senate. It’s going to take something much more forceful and courageous.
Third, what kind of presidential candidate says, “Yes Iran is a repressive regime and is a state sponsor of terrorism through Hezbollah but I’m Ok with that.” Leaving out what actions that requires, would YOU vote for a candidate that wouldn’t try to squelch the activities of Hezbollah where it is necessary and practical? We wouldn’t want to necessarily want to take Iran on in a war, because we don’t have a frickin’ army anymore. But if there was a way to accomplish the overthrow of the mullah’s in a different way, like through sanctions or covert operations or something like that, wouldn’t you want to?
But that’s OK. People will not be persuaded to like Hillary until all of the alternatives have been eliminated, some of them through their own actions.
Then, when there is no other viable alternative, suddenly she will look very attractive and we’ll review this vote and it won’t look so bad after all.
Not pretty, but true.
brendan @ 338
Oh, really?
mui @ 331
I’m not going to comment on that particular comment. My thinking is simply that his comment struck me as a play on words, the sort of thing that clever people do all the time.
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 344
Sure, sure
the most plausible explanation for Hillary’s vote on the Kyl amendment?
One acronym: AIPAC.
Does anyone doubt that AIPAC has every democratic party candidate for president by the short-hairs? Right. thought not.
portia.vz @ 342
You are wrong here. You and the the Democrats that voted for war with Iran regardless of what the bill de-facto says, are forgetting that the persons who they need to trust to NOT read it as full support for an attack on Iran are Bush and Cheney. There is NO WAY they do not take this and run with it. It CLEARLY shows that the senate, almost to a man and woman, agrees that “Iran is the most dangerous nation to EVER exist on earth in its entire 4 billion year history.” It WILL be used against those who voted for it and it WILL be used as justification to pre-emptively and illegally attack Iran. This is NOT a coherent and rational Administration at the helm of the military ship, it is Bush/Cheney!
Also, there is ZERO PROOF to back up their stupid-assed claim that the Repub Guard is involved in ANY way with killing illegally-positioned US soldiers in Iraq. None. The only “evidence” comes from the SAME liars and clowns that stated that Iraq DID have WMDs, a nuclear program, were involved with Al Qaeda, etc, etc.
a toothless resolution would urge more dental checkups for iranian grandmothers.
this amendment is vociferous in its denunciation and clearly frames the ‘issue’ in drastic military terms.
portia.vz @ 342
I partially agree: it’s toothless because of the executive’s dictatorial powers in making foreign policy, and, more particularly, war. It only makes things marginally worse, but still worse, and maybe even substantially worse if you look at it in conjunctions with France’s recent support for Bush, for example.
But you set up a false dichotomy with this: “Leaving out what actions that requires, would YOU vote for a candidate that wouldn’t try to squelch the activities of Hezbollah where it is necessary and practical?”. It doesn’t have to be presented that way, as Webb demonstrated: frame it as giving Cheney a blank check.
wanting to ‘take out’ hezbollah (a Lebanese entity in Lebanon) is rather ‘interventionist’ wouldn’t you say?
who appointed the united states the great arbitrator of world justice?
i see no evidence supporting any claim to moral superiority of the united states.
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 350
Good point. Especially in light of the fact that Reagan didn’t see the need to “squelch” Hezbollah even after they had killed 300 marines.
I’m tired of waiting for the Democratic Party to stand up and shove back against the neocons, the moral majority, the Christian right, etc. Sick of waiting. I don’t believe they’re ever going to change the direction this country is moving in. Do you think Hillary will ever vote against “globalization?” Against outsourcing? Against the WTO? Vote against Iran and Iraq? I don’t believe she ever will. Nor will Obama. Will they vote to take down the Patriot Act or the Military Commissions Act? Or to investigate election fraud? The Katrina catastrophe? What about DE-privatizing our government and returning it to where it was before these rich and superrich and Xtian rightists gained control? Naw… these people are pushovers for the corporatists who are destroying the American fabric of law and accountability. We need radical changes… We don’t need weak and false leaders.
Predator Atrebaetes @340:
Thanks for that comment.
I don’t think Clinton was being foolish at all – I think she was being practical
The Lobby Which Must Not Be Named backed this vote (this is why my own Vichy Democrat Senators voted the way they did)
and at HuffPost David Bromwich gives a highly plausible interpretation of what Sen. Clinton might be thinking, based on her behavior patterns
brendan @ 338
thanks.
we’ve had this discussion before, but just for record i’d like to say again that i do think that it is quite understandable, after the jewish holocaust (and especially the usa’s response – we refused to offer safe haven for the vast number of jewish refugees), i think it is perfectly reasonable that people in general and jews in particular would be feeling a bit on guard… i’d like to be sensitive to that when being critical of israeli policies or american politician’s ME policies.
i hope, but don’t know if that will address mui’s concerns… and if not i hope she’ll tell me… because i, like most everyone else, have lots to learn about this…
saddam idolized stalin. he was a monster. of course. but we know that.
there are lots of ‘monsters’ in the world. nobody ‘likes’ hezbollah. nobody ‘likes’ robert mugabe. nobody ‘likes’ the i.r.a.
and nobody should like unilateral wars of aggression against countries like iran which are not a threat. which have no nuclear weapons.
i question about whether the iraquis are ‘better’ off now that saddam is gone. i doubt it. and even though the mullahs in iran are medieval and intolerant and dictatorial i doubt that the iranians will be better off after a military devastation of their country.
only a monster would do to iraq what has been done to iraq.
mistah charley, ph.d. @ 354
Sounds right to me. Doesn’t mean I support it but sounds right.
She thinks the next war is going to happen. She hopes the worst of its short-term effects on America will have died down before the election. She suspects the media and voters will show more trust for a candidate who supported than for one who opposed the war. She wants a ponderous establishment of American troops and super-bases to remain in the Middle East for years to come. If she wins the presidency, she will inherit the command of that army and those bases, and she believes she can manage their affairs more prudently than George W. Bush. Hillary Clinton is consistent. Every move is calculated, her actual intentions are masked, but the total drift is easy to comprehend.
this seems to hit it on the head
and this is where her strategic thinking is wrong.
the ’short term effects’ are going to be in fact’ very very very very very long term effects.’
Scarecrow @ 250
I share the concerns about the drift toward punishing the Democrats in the general election if they don’t nominate the “right” candidate. If you think another four years of GOP rule won’t matter, you aren’t paying attention, imho.
For my part, I feel the responsibility to my fellow Democrats that goes with living in Iowa, and have been diligently going to candidate events all summer, listening to them on CSPAN, and trying to make up my mind. A few weeks ago, I decided to caucus for Biden.
If you want to derail the HRC train, you have to get behind someone else who might pull it off. I think Biden is up to the job, and if he isn’t, no one else is. I sense that Edwards is fading a bit here, and he has said some really hawkish things on Iran that are at odds with what he said the other night. I don’t trust him.
I like Obama. He actually called me the other day and I asked him about Iran. But he seems timid about voting his convictions, or even showing up, and not very experienced. I like Dodd, but don’t think he’s a good enough campaigner to take it all the way. Richardson is underwhelming and wonky on the stump, and I’ve heard one too many rumors that he shares qualities with the Big Dog that we do not need in the WH again.
Biden is a charismatic campaigner, bright, authentic and has years of experience. When you ask him a question, he answers it. He’s tough, but always respectful, and will probably pull a lot of GOP votes in the general election. I’ve met him twice, and just like him as a human being.
My two cents.
selise:
Scarecrow’s comment thread is not for me to talk about my “feelings” and “prejudices” and I genuinely regret indulging in it and crossing the line I set myself in comment @290.
By the same token, this “feeling on guard” stuff, and “heightened sensitivities” thing is just the flip side of that coin: it’s trumping argument (such as my @207, @246, @282, @290, @314 @349) with emotions. Don’t fall for it.
Scarecrow should take a minute to lay down the boundaries on A*P*C discussions. I tried this a few weeks ago at DKos, but my diary didn’t generate much discussion (in fairness, it came on the heels of a number of hotly debated diaries relating directly or indirectly to A*P*C).
Basically, I proposed the following deal: the anti-A*P*C faction would restrict itself to A*P*C’s positions and advocacy (eschewing “dual allegiance” and “media control” claims that question A*P*C’s good faith) and the pro-A*P*C faction would desist from unfair “anti-semite” allegations that are, in my opinion, the equivalent of the “dual allegiance” canard.
In my experience, the problem is that either the pro-faction will start irresponibly tossing around the term “anti-semite” or some crackpot will start spouting anti-semitic nonsense and then the whole dialogue spins out of control.
I’ll say it again: you can pretty much lobby democrats in congress for whatever you want, but not for capitulating to bush. And A*P*C has done that twice this year, with disastrous results.
If someone wants to argue that it wasn’t all A*P*C’s fault, then please identify another constituency with a following in the democratic party that was pushing for bush’s power to unilaterally act against Iran. Don’t tell me about the NRA or the fundies or the like – they don’t get their phone calls returned from democrats. Were the trial lawyers or teachers lobbying for this? Were the oil companies (whose calls get returned by EVERYBODY!)?
I really don’t know who else might have been lobbying for these pro-bush positions. But I know A*P*C was – just look at their website.
In my worst nightmares, I imagine that even the anti-war dems in congress are playing us for fools, always talking anti-war but ultimately pleading with us that there’s nothing they can do. And so they don’t block these votes, don’t take the course advocated by Sirota and others that would represent fighting against ‘pub filibusters, and just keep playing us along. If that’s what they are doing, which constituency in the democratic party are they trying to placate?
Seriously, Scarecrow should take a minute to state his preferred boundaries. This can’ be a third-rail. We can’t let the extremists in the anti- and pro-A*P*C factions hijack every discussion of A*P*C’s bizarre insistence that bush have complete latitude in taking us to war against Iran.
edited and released by Mods
By the same token, this “feeling on guard” stuff, and “heightened sensitivities” thing is just the flip side of that coin: it’s trumping argument (such as my @207, @246, @282, @290, @314 @349) with emotions. Don’t fall for it.
indeed. facts are facts.
brendan @ 360
i don’t let it trump my arguments. i’m perfectly willing to condemn neocon policies here or likud policies in israel – but my arguments have nothing to do with whether a person is jewish or martian.
Go to the lead article today at AsiaTimes. The Caspian energy war and Central Asia energy issues are heating up. If anyone thinks that Big Oil and the USA is going to do anything other than what is strictly in our economic and strategic interests, including dealing with Iran any way we see fit, well I want what they’re smoking. Hillary Clinton and what she would or wouldn’t do is really not the question, for the big decisions are already in place and the chess moves are already in motion.
To the Mods: I thought my prior AIPAC message didn’t get through. There’s no need to post the second, shorter message. Thanks.
selise @ 355
Selise, Quite frankly these arguments look bad. I am not the only one who thinks so. Obviously. If someone has something specific to say, for example about Mainland China’s treatment of Tibetans, or Israel’s bombing of Lebanonese civilinas. No problem. But vague linkage of journalists and neocons and Israeli politics, unsubstantiated, with the only connection being Jewish. Or China will overtake us and we’ll have to colonize the moon. The Israeli “arguments” tend to be aggressively argued, even though the arguments are again vague and unsubstantiated, and then to be told I am accused of thinking someone a pogrom torchbearer, well it makes me want to be less involved. Really. It’s quite ugly.
selise @ 364
Well put. Selise, I have to go. Hang in there. I love your arguments.
saudi arabia?
mic?
there’s probably lots. that doesn’t mean a*p*c is not involved, but certainly it’s not the only one – just the most public one. and besides, for a long time i’ve thought of a*p*c as a front group for a segment of the mic.
redwoodtreehugger @ 365
this AsiaTimes?
Where does Dick Cheney, who is widely considered the mastermind behind Iraq AND Iran, fit into the “rational prejudice” theory, folks? Is he Jewish? Or a fundie Xtian?
And hey Brendan, if you think that making blanket assumptions about people based on their ethnicity is not a step on the road to ending up a “torch bearing pogromchik,” you need a few history lessons.
thomas c @ 366
reload the page! it was released.
mui @ 366
well, all i can say is if i do it – please call me out on it. i’ve learned to trust your judgment, and if i am unconciously doing what you describe i’d really like to know about it. not that it is your responsibility to educate me… still, i’d be grateful.
thomas c @ 365
reload, it was released!
selise @ 371
I’ve learned to trust your judgement as well.
rwcole @ 211
The story of the “Boy Who Cried Wolf” ends with the coming of the actual wolf. (And the villagers are exactly right to be sceptical! It is the little boy’s fault…)
Look, if you were president of Iran, you would be criminally negligent to your people if you weren’t developing a nuclear weapons program. That’s not to say it’s not a threat (it is) or that it’s dangerous (it is) or that it’s consistent with everyone being sweetness and light (they aren’t). It doesn’t mean we have to agree with it and be happy about it. But we do have to recognize it, if we wish to deal with it.
Iran is pursuing a “breakout” capability–whereby it could withdraw from the NPT and shortly thereafter build a weapon. Any of you may go over to armscontrolwonk and read about the various technical choices made in the program that make it clear that it’s not an energy program.
What the US can do about this, if we choose to be wise, is to arrange incentives such that Iran always finds it in its own best interests not to exercise its breakout option, and to stay within the NPT. (Anyone who calls this “bowing to terror” is too stupid to be allowed to deal with reality. All the military might in the world will not keep Iran from doing this if they choose, and nobody sensible is pretending otherwise.) For as long as Iran is within the NPT, we are more likely to be able to fingerprint their weapons, which provides a strong incentive to them not to pass them along to AQ or anyone else. The moment they leave NPT, our knowledge of their forensics will deteriorate. If you want to keep weapons out of the hands of AQ, keep Iran in the NPT. It’s really that simple.
I don’t think this Administration is very wise.
selise @ 363
This contradicts what you said @355. You won’t raise the subject when criticizing “neocon” or “likud” policies, but you will raise it in defense of critics of those critics. Let that just be food for thought.
That said, you are a model of how to argue and act, while I felt baited, justifiably or not, into a more subjective, emotional debate than the issues need.
oddmommy @ 167
What is the evidence that we invaded Iraq to placate the Israel lobby? I’ve never heard it.
Do you really think that’s what Cheney and Bush are about?
Peruse the document, “A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm.” Then peruse “The Plan for the New American Century.” “Placate” is not the word I would use.
oddmommy @ 370
I alluded to my earlier comments, which you ignored. Do you really think I’m so simplistic that I think Cheney a dupe in thrall to an Israeli cabal? It’s never what I’ve argued here, and I’ve repeatedly made the point in comments (see @282 particularly for the way I view the relationship) that interference in domestic politics goes both ways between the two countries: indeed, I see Olmert as far more of such a puppet to American interests than Cheney. One of the reasons I could arrive at that conclusions, as opposed to solely seeing A*P*C’s nefarious hand in all that, was by very free, often acriminious discussion of the subject in places like this.
You asked a question, which I answered without rancor or insinuations @207 and @246. What got me started was this vague complaint of some general bad vibe around here, which I’ve regrettably now amplified.
As for this slippery-slope argument that I’m “on the road” to genocidal violence — it’s risible. Are my prejudices the ones to fear here, at the moment when the country has led to the deaths of nearly a million Iraqis and plans a new project on Iran?
Praedor Atrebates @ 347
To you and Brendan: I happen to agree with everything you just said about how Cheney would try to use it. But Cheney would find an excuse in ANY reolution the Senate passed including one honoring Tomato Day in East Bumf%&k, Iowa.
The Idiots in Charge really screwed up the stability in the ME and left a vacuum in Iraq. I don’t expect Iran to take us on directly but they could make conditions worse in that part of the world using Hezbollah and backing one Shiite faction over another in Iraq.
A presidential candidate who does not come out strongly against a state that supports terrorists is going to be in trouble next year. The Bushies will hype fear, the media will follow suit and this vote will be hauled out.
It was not a great resolution. The designation of the Iranian army as a terrorist entity is dangerous. But this vote is the correct one whether we like it or not.
And some of our candidates are very fortunate that they will never have to put their rhetoric where their mouths are. That allows them to appeal to the netroots without without ever having to prove what they say. I could see where the White House would find that very useful. Doncha think?
brendan @ 374
brendan… i don’t understand! or maybe i’m not being clear… or maybe both. trying again…
1) i don’t think it matters to a usa foreign policy argument if a neocon (or a member of a*p*c) is jewish or not.
2) i do think the fact of the holocaust matters when jews (and non-jews) hear arguments about the role of the neocons or a*p*c in usa foreign policy IF part of the argument depends on whether or not the neocon or member of a*p*c is jewish.
in summary… just like i said 1) i don’t think it’s fair to blame marty peretz’s anti-muslim bigotry and war-mongering on the fact that he is jewish AND 2) if i make an issue of the fact that he is jewish, or attribute his politics to the fact that he is jewish….THEN i expect that to push buttons. and the existence of those buttons is completely understandable, imo, because of the fact of the holocaust.
i don’t think my 1) and 2) are contradictory.
am i still not making any sense?
portia.vz @ 379
This assertion demands elaboration: “A presidential candidate who does not come out strongly against a state that supports terrorists is going to be in trouble next year. The Bushies will hype fear, the media will follow suit and this vote will be hauled out.” Cheney will obviously use any resolution as an excuse. But won’t the media, too, use any excuse? What makes you think the media can be appeased any more than Cheney?
Uh oh, it sounds like I’m suggesting some kind of dark media conspiracy!
brendan @ 374
p.s. i’m sorry if you felt baited… that was not my intent. and i very much appreciate and respect that you were willing to back off of the marty peretz thing…
selise @ 381
Not baited by you.
portia.vz @379:
I meant to imply that you’re suggesting a media conspiracy when you say “A presidential candidate who does not come out strongly against a state that supports terrorists is going to be in trouble next year. The Bushies will hype fear, the media will follow suit and this vote will be hauled out.”
mui @ 374 –
thanks mui. please consider my previous as an open invitation should the need arise.
colour me flabbergasted that specific articles/links/documents which prove beyond a shadow of a doubt relevant connections, controlling influences and outcomes are pooh-poohed as emotionalism and anecdotal evidence of lurking genocidal impulses.
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 385
mui and oddmommy are referring to my comment @332. They don’t address any of my useful arguments.
the terrorists are experts at calling terrorists terrorists
Professor Foland @ 375 –
excellent summary. i think you’ve nail it, thanks.
so, am i wrong to conclude that the main problem is our unwillingness to pursue negotiations (including things like a nonagression pact) that could be expected to lead to keeping iran within the NPT and even possibly even giving up their nuclear power program?
and one more think i think i should write before leaving this thread. i didn’t follow scarecrow’s request to back off this conversation. i don’t usually ignore the requests/instructions of the front pagers…. so i think i owe scarecrow an apology.
i’m sorry scarecrow, next time i promise to do better. is there something i could do to make amends?
selise @380:
Your point #1:
Your right, and I concede this in my offensive confessional @332. That said, particular ties of family or finance to Israel (I refer to Wurmser, Feith, Perle, and A*P*C generally) are legitimate grounds for scrutiny. It’s a two-way street between us and Israel, but it’s pretty alarming nonetheless that the Cheney regime finds Israeli agents so useful for its aims.
Your point #2:
Maybe “inconsistent” would be better than “contradictory”. You’re being a little naive here about this Holocaust-senstivity argument in light of, for example, the Post’s multiple responses to Mearsheimer & Walt (one the other day by that oily Gerson character) or supposed fears of renewed European anti-Semitism in the runup to the Iraq invasion. It’s a very manipulative and cynical argument, and, one, of course, also seized on by non-Jews to club anti-war opponents into silence, or even to promote policies unrelated to the middle east (for example, Putin’s supposedly alarming anti-Semitism).
I feel bad I’ve drawn you into this muck. There’s a kind of pristine objectivity about your comments and posts that’s worth preserving, as well as a practical constructiveness that this only distracts from.
selise:
I meant “you’re right” @391, not “your right”.
selise @ 390
Me, too.
Scarecrow: Let me know if I am disinvited from commenting on your threads. If I’m not, I promise to be more judicious in commenting.
i’m so ’steamed’ about this vote yesterday i too overlooked the invitation to ‘disembark and quit barking’……….
sorry….
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 388
oh, final thought before the spot becomes a dot and disappears:
the quote ‘above’ is obviously (hopefully obviously) aimed at players on the world stage manipulating levers and buttons and ropes…
oddmommy @ 370
Not all neocons are you-know-whats?, but their allegiance is to the-group-that-cannot-be-named. Woolsey, Bolton and Hillary are not you-know-whats?. But their loyalty is to the elephant in the room.
Bitchin’ good thread, ‘Crow.
I don’t know what those people furnishing her lead in the polls are thinking.
Of her (And Edwards! And Obama’s!) Wednesday night reply to the question about would they committ to pulling all American troops from Iraq by the end of their first term, she said:
“It’s very difficult to know what we’re going to be inheriting…”
If ANYONE running for president has any doubt about what they’re going to be inheriting in Iraq, if they get elected, then they should do a diving header off the podium, in an honest “mea culpa”, for having the cognitive ability of a fucking Irish Setter.
The three frontrunners are not, on the face of it, stupid. They damn well know that there is practically zero chance of Iraq “stabilizing” without a massive continuing committment of our military and our money. And that “stability” will last just as long as there are enough american weapons pointed at the various groups and sub-groups to keep them relatively suppressed.
And if they think, Petrolus-like, that they can change this…hostage situation…and make it come good for the Fortune 500, then is it too much to ask them to give us the SPECIFICS of what they plan to do to change it?
Is it too much to ask someone to ask John Edwards if HIS Secretary of State will be actively threatening a coup against the Maliki government, the way Rice is conniving and jawboning? Or if HE will authorize bribing (and arming) the Sunni insurgents to go after Al Queada, and HOPE that when they have been run out of Iraq (which will happen within a matter of days of our troops leaving) the insurgents won’t come looking for our troops again?
Is he going to “explain” this policy to the 60% Shia majority in Iraq?
If, as seems likely, the brits down south get tired of sacrificing troops in ass-covering duty for Bush and the GOP, and go home this spring or summer, will Obama please tell us what he plans to do about the fact that Basra is already in process of being “administered” by militias and warlords and gangsters?
In HIS “gosharootie, I can’t decide if we should leave or not…it’s all so confusing…” mindset, might he let us in on whether or not he plans to send troops down there to protect that stretch of the Kuwait-to-Baghdad highway?
And, as always, I would love to see Russert, or Jim Lehrer, or SOMEFUCKINGBODY, ask the democratic candidates collectively:
“Are you people really craven enough, and stupid enough, to let george bush and the republicans hand you the strontium-90 turd they’ve created, so they can go home, sharpen up their machetes, and get ready to dice your asses into fucking party-favors for “losing Iraq?”
Please answer.
brendan @ 381
Yes, the media will not be appeased but Clinton does have an edge over other candidates in that she is a former first lady. The media will treat her differently than the other potential nominees.
But my point is that when people feel a threat to their mortality, they frequently turn to conservative politicians. There was a study on this. So, assuming that the Bushies trot out the fear thing next year, the fact that Hillary voted the way she did is not going to hurt her as much as it would hurt the ones that voted no and will look soft on terrorism.
Now, if you think that the media will jump on the Bomb Iran bandwagon, this is also a perfectly reasonable assumption. But if you think that this sense of the senate resolution makes one damn bit of difference to Cheney, you’re just wrong. Congress will have to obstruct with everything they’ve got. With or without a resolution, Cheney will do what he wants unless someone stops him. This resolution neither impedes or advances Cheney’s plans.
brendan @ 384
Not necessarily a conspiracy. More like coersion.
“I trusted Bush” is pretty lame. I knew that Bush was a duplicious, election-stealing son-of-a-bitch when he stole the election. And I knew he was not to be trusted all along. And I guessed that he’d find a way to concoct a war with Iraq even before he took the oath of office. So what is Hillary’s excuse? How come she didn’t know?
portia.vz @ 398
Glenn Greenwald has a post today about military resistance to an Iran attack that I recommend. I’m more pessimistic than I was a month ago: I quite literally thought there’d be a military coup if Cheney tried to attack, but I don’t think so any more. Agreed, Congress is a facade and can’t act to stop this even if it wanted to. But yesterday’s sense of the Senate resolution was a more ominous portent than the 97-0 one (as indicated by Webb’s differing votes on each).
As for this “threat to mortality” motive in voters, I don’t buy it. There are plenty of other factors that animate people — picking this one arbitrarily doesn’t convince me. I’m skeptical of the notion that popular consent has anything to do with foreign policy.
I’m sick of divining Clinton’s motives. I think her constituency explains her positions more than any speculation as to what goes on behind that opaque exterior.
I like Edwards and Dodd, but a huge chunk of Democrats voted or spoke against the Iraq war before being against it was cool. Why can’t we have a president who was right yesterday as well as today?
Where are our Gores and Deans and Feingolds?
selise @ 262
RWcole you have to know this is horseshit. Iaea’s El Baradei has said for the last four years that there is absolute no evidence to back up these unsubstantiated claims that keep being repeated about Iran developing a nuclear “weapons” program. They have a nuclear program which they have the right to develop.
Who you going to believe, El Baradei, Scott Ritter, Flynnt Leverett who were all on target before the invasion of Iraq. Or are you going to believe Micheal Ledeen, Reuel Marc Gerecht, Cheney, Bill Kristol all of the lying warmongers who lied our nation into an unnecessary and immoral war. Sounds like you are choosing to believe the liars.
When the fuck will Israel sign the non-proliferation agreement? When will Israel stop making illegal sales of nuclear technology out their back door? When will Israel push for a Nuclear free zone in the middle east like Iran has since the early 70’s? When will Israel abide by the same rules that they demand their neighbors abide by?
When When When?
oddmommy @ 291
Odd Mommy I agree with you more often than not. But in the past you have done your part to shut down the I/P dialogue. This is an important issue and I think it is important to discuss it since most countries in the middle east repeat that it is the I/P conflict that is the “root cause” of the anger and hatred directed towards the U.S. and Israel. But I have been witness to many at this site trying their best to shut this much needed debate ..down.
Thank you for sharing your feelings ,and insights about this issue.
It is important for all of us to read more, know more and discuss this issue more often.
alank @ 236
Both the US and Israel are committed to expanding empire.
brendan @ 304
You hear the Israeli Palestinian conflict brought up on NPR. But their reporting about this issue has come under much needed scrutiny by the media watch group FAIR.
I can honestly say that you never hear about this issue brought up on the mainline news programs. It needs to be discussed out loud, we need to read more about the history of the area, the agreements, the wall, the Palestinian camps, the feelings of the Israelis etc etc.
PRO-PALESTINE…PRO-ISRAEL….PRO-PEACE
selise @ 56
Why come to her defense?
Especially when Steve Soto @ leftcoaster put it best!
I mean hello ~ at least many of our well-known DINO’s have been consistent in their war votes, and are not a complete stinking liars that has to hide behind her minions in the DLC faction. Unbelievable.
As long as we’re on the subject, I don’t understand why AIPAC or: A*P*C as it’s usually called, on here, which is, itself, a little bizarre…) is such a sacred cow.
We all know they have one purpose, and that’s to push Israel’s agenda in american, particularly by lobbying in congress and schmoozing with powerful, influential people. That itself, doesn’t make them “bad”, as long as people can find out what they’re doing; how much money they’re spending, and whom they’re spending it on.
When it gets to spying on our government, in order to get a leg up on influencing policy, or adjusting their own agenda to what they’re finding out, alledgedly illegally, then as we’ve seen with some of the charges against some of their people, push has come to shove…and should have.
FDL does some good things; some excellent things, but when the staff here tries to stop legitimate and reasonable debate, they do themselves a disservice.
Jane, and Christy, et al; you guys are getting more popular by the day, and deservedly so. But that comes with a little “town hall meeting” price tag, and you should be willing to pay it.
Thanks, for all you do. :o)
Kathleen I don’t think it’s right to accuse oddmommy of shutting down debate, when in fact she is expressing her point of view, one that is not unique, since I for one, side with her point of view. If anything we have been less than aggressive, shied away from using the word A-word & etc. I have never seen any one us of shutting down Israel/Palestine debate. Or being so aggressively adamant about our point of view that we dominate a whole thread, box everyone around who disagrees and then accuse them of “shutting down debate”. It’s quite the contrary, I am a fence-sitter on Palestine/Israel. What I have objected to is these insinuations that there is some conspiracy afoot in America and abroad caused by ?!? and their confederates based on the such and such a document authored by Richard Perle et al, or some other such thing. The same document that was rejected by non-neocons. So I guess what we are saying is if you mean neocon, it would be nice if you said that. Specifics are great to help misunderstandings. Linkage to documention would be even better. Maybe even avoid misunderstandings. But paranoid assertions based on one document are really suspect to me.
In other views:
Because of the corrupt bullshit that has permeated “Operation Iraqi Shitmire” starting with the run-up to it, the people who want to sustain it, or it looks like (judging from two nights ago at the democratic cave-in-soiree) the ones who keep talking about ending our part in it, ALL want to do it under the table while talking about it publicly as little as possible, for fear that the the cottage folk will REALLY start paying attention, which is not something that most politicians like.
To steal Jesse Unruh’s reality-speak a few decades ago, when he was talking about lobbyists:
“If you can’t take their money; screw their women; drink their liquor; and then look them in the eye and tell them to go to hell, you don’t belong up here.”
Increasingly, I think that works to describe the attitudes of our current crop of congers, toward their constituents.
Tanbark @ 409
Noone I know thinks A*P*C is a sacred cow. Totally the opposite. It’s just when someone means A*P*C, it would be nice to define it. Who exactly in A*P*C does what how and when? The more definition, the more documentation, the less misunderstanding.
oddmommy @ 167
Cheney and Bush were about taking down the whole region [PNAC] == Perle, Feith et. al wanted security for Israel [Clean Break]. Both working together.
Wilkinson said Israel wanted Iran first, but went along with the Iraq plan as THE plan would eventually lead to Iran — No?
Remember the A*P*C spy case?
So the Iraq occupation might not necessarily have been to placate Israel, but it certainly seems a reassurance for Israel to let them know that their plans were on track?
CheckingIn @ 413
The last just shows that Rice and CO. were building support for “The War” using lobbyists as go-betweens. It suggest that the lobbyists were being used like patsies, really. And couldn’t be bothered to help them out once caught or testify on their behalf. And why use them unofficially?
Mui, WADR, Iraq is the evidence of the conspiracy.
Israel will view an american withdrawal from Iraq as nothing less than a catastrophe. That is why Joe Lieberman and Hillary Clinton have been in bed with George Bush to the extent they have. Clinton has that huge Jewish vote to deal with, in N.Y., and Lieberman is practically in the same boat in Connecticut.
They KNOW that when our troops leave, whether it’s in 10 months or 10 years, Iran is going to come of this wretched, miserable, clusterfuck much empowered. Period. Exclamation point. It is a given. That’s why Israel would do anything to get bush to attack Iran. It would probably trigger a mid-east war, and one in which they would be on the “winning” side, at least, militarily.
The side effects of it creating an Orwellian state of permanent warfare between Muslim states and at least, America and Isreal, I think, just don’t bother leaders of Israel that much, nor do they bother bush and his neo-cons, either. In fact, if they could “do” Iran, it would make it possible to enfold the horrendous fuckup they’ve already created in Iraq, in a larger and bloodier fuckup yclept the greater “waronterrrr”, with their desperate hope that THAT would return american voters to the unquestioning jingoism that let them invade Iraq in the first place.
AIPAC is almost certainly working tirelessly to prevent an american withdrawal. It’s their job. But an ASS of us think it’s not in OUR interest to have them doing it, particularly if they’re doing illegal things to try to succeed at it.
And we should talk about that. We ARE talking about it.
Why should there be a big “SHHHHHH!!!” about this subject?
oddmommy @ 145
Conspirary theory eh! Hmmm check this out from the Israeli press:
blockquoteBrigadier General (Res.) Oded Tira: “…Bush lacks political power to hit Iran: And finally, Iran will continue to pursue its nuclear program while the world continues to “babble.” If American and European actions continue in the current pace and quality, there will be no change in the Iranian nuclearization path. Instead of allotting several months for diplomatic activity and preparing for a military strike on Iran’s nuclear infrastructure, the world continues to talk nonsense and play with illusions regarding the success of moderating diplomatic moves. President Bush lacks the political power to attack Iran. As an American strike in Iran is essential for our existence, we must help him pave the way by lobbying the Democratic Party (which is conducting itself foolishly) and US newspaper editors. We need to do this in order to turn the Iranian issue to a bipartisan one and unrelated to the Iraq failure.
We must turn to Hillary Clinton and other potential presidential candidates in the Democratic Party so that they publicly support immediate action by Bush against Iran. We should also approach European countries so that they support American actions in Iran, so that Bush will not be isolated in the international arena again…”
http://www.ynetnews.com/articl…..75,00.html
Nothing here move along, move along…
Ynetnews — Published: 12.30.06
http://www.ynetnews.com/articl…..75,00.html
Mui, will this do for starters?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L…..ge_scandal
Tanbark @ 417
For starters. As a reference point of sorts, give or take. But librarian-wisdom tells me never to rely on wikipedia.
“We need to do this in order to turn the Iranian issue to a bipartisan one and unrelated to the Iraq failure.”
Well there we have it. :o)
That’s like listening to Rumsfeld or Perle, or Wolfowitz, in a “planning” session. :o)
If the good general, using AIPAC, or anyone else, can convince americans to listen to the creator of The Fucking of The Cluster which is now going on in Iraq, and which has NO visible end in sight, when said creator tells them that it’s time to “do” Iran, then by Yahweh, we might as well begin wiping our butts with the Bill of Rights and starting our fireplace warmups with the constitution.
Understand, Checkingin, I’m glad you posted this. I think there are probably substantial numbers of Israelis, and Americans of Jewish ethnicity who would agree with it.
But that doesn’t make it any less laughable, to me. :o)
Of course, I didn’t think bush could get “elected”, and I didn’t think he was stupid enough to attack Iraq.
I’m counting on a LOT of republicans and Wall St. fatcats who understand that bombing Iran would be the end of life as we know it.
Someone needs to ask General Tira if he thinks that the republicans up for re-election in 2008 are interested in explaining to the voters how gas got to $5 a gallon. Because if bush “does” Iran, Condi will be able to walk across the Straits of Hormuz on anti-ship mines, without getting her Guccis wet.
Likewise, Centcom, the last time I checked, had what is known as “a full plate”. I don’t think they want to find out how the Iraqi Shia will react if Bush starts bombing the Iranian Shia.
The General was having a Tinkerbelle-moment. Thanks for posting it. :o)
Mui, does your librarian’s sense tell you not to believe that Lawrence Franklin pled guilty to two counts of espionage and was sentenced to 13 years in prison, nor that two more employees of A*P*C were indicted?
Just askin’… :o)
Edited ** and released by MOD.
The last just shows that Rice and CO. were building support for “The War” using lobbyists as go-betweens. It suggest that the lobbyists were being used like patsies, really. And couldn’t be bothered to help them out once caught or testify on their behalf. And why use them unofficially?
Patsies – Hardly? And why do you say unofficially – unofficially for whom? These guys certainly weren’t interns — they well-known operatives/lobbyists on The Hill. They could be, what looks like/maybe? an intregal part of the US and Israel neocons group working and planning for war within the Pentagon? However, maybe there was some divided loyality that emergedin the OSP? Indeed it would be interesting to be a fly on the wall with this spy case.
So, you see why I’m finding it a tad difficult to believe they were patsies?
Edited ***** and released by Mod.
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 196
I’ve been meaning to ask MoveOn to get its fingers out and get a BUS TRIP to Congress like NORPAC does… Then, I think MoveOn could get some results. But, I think MoveOn is too much in Pelosi’s pocket so those 3.2 will never be organised the way they could and should be.
Do you ever get the feeling it is all a con? I learned a new word today: helot. Applicable.
So, President Hillary or whomever. Either way we get war, war, glorious war, and we labor towards ever more loss of earnings, good will and blood.
mui @ 410
I am glad that these discussions happen. But please do not tell me that people have not aggrressively tried to shut this debate down on other threads when it has come up because that is a lie. And please do not tell me people do not go OT and then selectively attack others for doing the same. Because that is also a lie.
And as far as dominating a thread with an OT issue it just happenned in this thread so please stop being so hypocritical.
Anyway I think it is great that this critical issue was discussed even though it was OT. It is the selective enforcement of the OT police on this site that I find contradictory.
Friends of Sabeel-New England presents . . .
“The Apartheid Paradigm in Palestine-Israel:
Issues of Justice and Equality”
October 26 – 27, 2007
Old South Church, 645 Boylston St., Boston
Friday—2:30 PM—10:00 PM
Saturday—8:00 AM—4:30 PM
Keynote Address: Archbishop Desmond Tutu
http://www.fosna.org/BostonConferenceOct2007.htm
Whomever the mod is:
Why the asterisks for AIPAC?
Just askin’…
“Do you ever get the feeling that it is all a con?”
Sure do, ‘Nation.
I think that it’s just possible that EVERY candidate running, from both parties, and EVERY conger, dem or repub, knows that we are screwed, in Iraq.
I’m beginning to think they understand that the place is never going to “stabiliize”, and that whether we leave 6 months from now, or 6 years from now, all hell is likely to break loose, and it scares the democrats as badly as it scares the repubs.
And why not?
The dems are daily revealing themselves to be GOOPER Lites.
One of bush’s pet projects is to let Wall St. get it’s hands on the Social Security goody box. It may come up again, near the end of his term, and if it does, it’ll be interesting to see how many dems have decided that it is, after all, a good idea.
In fact, that would be a good “How will YOU vote?” question for all the aspiring preznints.
But to get back to your question:
It’s sure starting to look like the democrats’ frontrunning asslickers don’t have a dime’s worth of difference with george bush on his Iraq policy.
It’s deja vu all over again.
STOP HILLARY.
jogger @ 428
To Hell with Hill!
thomas c, you really scare th’ hell outta me!! i hope you scare the hell out of a lot of people!!people who will fight to overturn this stupid-stupid piece of legislation!!