Until two days ago, the health care debate between Democratic candidates was mostly over. Hillary co-opted Edwards, and that defined the boundaries. But with their proposed agreement, the United Auto Workers and General Motors expanded the boundaries, advancing the health care debate beyond where the front runners thought it safe to go.
John Edwards deserves credit for his plan for universal coverage. He pushed the debate, getting Obama, Clinton and others to come up with their own plans. But none of these plans lays out the full scope of the debate many Americans are now waiting to have.
Americans are unhappy with their health care system. And it's not just because 47 million American don't have health insurance. As Jane has courageously discussed here, those who are insured are also frustrated -- they're angry -- because medications, testing, and treatment that their doctors are telling them are medically necessary are being routinely denied coverage by an insurance industry whose financial health depends on such denials.
We have a system that largely depends on insurance companies, but the financial interests of insurance companies are directly at odds with the interests of people who need health care. This conflict is pervasive, pernicious, and fundamental, and it cannot be easily overcome through "reforms" that keep private insurance in the central role, no matter how well conceived and implemented.
Hillary Clinton, following safely in Edwards' footsteps, has a universal plan premised on insurance coverage for all. And like Edwards' plan, Clinton's plan includes features that could, over time, expand the public health care system by making it an option for those without employer-provided private insurance or who cannot otherwise afford insurance payments.
The core of the leading Democrats' plans is thus reliance on employer-provided private insurance. The candidates have accepted that core, because it's the core system now, and they assume that's the best they can get. But the GM-UAW agreement suggests they've been too timid.
The details of the GM-UAW plan are not available, but what it appears to do is to set up a company-wide health plan trust for GM-UAW retirees which would initially be funded mostly by an endowment from GM. I see two important concepts at work in this proposal.
First, after GM's initial funding of the trust, GM would be relieved of a major financial burden that, along with other retirement commitments, has combined to make GM's products less competitive. As soon as GM announced the agreement, perceptions of its increased competiveness caused its stock price to jump.
I don't know if this will "save" GM, or Ford or Chrysler, but the concept has relevance for many industries in America. Moving health care costs off the corporate books is a necessary first step in restoring their competitiveness and keeping jobs here. But our candidates are moving in the opposite direction, seeking to force employers to provide health insurance coverage.
Second, the UAW members and their families will still get health care, but it will be funded primarily by their trust system. Unless I'm mistaken, this looks conceptually like a single-payer system limited to GM-UAW employees.
If that's the concept, then one can see it expanded to Ford and Chrysler and other segments of the auto industry . . . and other industries. Anything that large has to be run in an open, transparent manner, subject to independent oversight. So we're talking about something that will eventually evolve into a quasi-public funding institution.
While the Democratic plans also include publically financed systems, including expanded access to Medicare and/or the Congressional health plan system, they could have gone further in laying the foundation for a transition to something like a single-payer system for basic health services, but they were afraid to get too far out in front.
The GM-UAW plan looks like it is based on quasi-public concepts that go beyond the candidates' employer-based plans. And by shifting the cost burden from a financially pressed industry to a pool-based, quasi-public concept called a "trust," the agreement provides room for the candidates to improve their plans and change the health care debate for the better.
emptywheel has another take at TNH.
Btw, I thought the Democrats had an excellent "debate" last night. Good discussions about Iraq, Iran, health care, etc. and the overall impression helps the Democrats, IMO. Any reactions?
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Good morning!
Scarecrow, good morning!
Excellent post, deserving of
broad distribution. Cogent, and spot-on!
Should be required reading by those seeking to
‘run things’ as well as the ‘talking heads.”
the thing that concerns me about this is that now there is NO incentive for GM (or other auto manufacturers) to support a national single payer health care program.
we just lost a potential ally in the battle with the insurance companies.
I follow the Edwards camp and his supporters seem to agree a single-payer system is on the horizon and the Edwards plan is a good start. Edwards was the first to challenge the idea of “universal access” to health insurance as substitute language for providing healthcare to everyone. It seems most of the candidate-plans move in same direction.
g’morning scarecrow, thanx for the early post
here’s the only way to frame the discussion;
“when a corporation does not provide health care to the workers then the rest of us pay since everyone needs health care but not everyone can afford it
the country must keep it’s citisens healthy to remain competitive and productive and there should be no welfare to profitable corporations
if they use labor to turn their profit they have an obligation to not rely on government aseets to keep their labor force and their family healthy.
all profitable bussinesses will provide healthcare for their labor force so the country does not have to pay that corporations bills for them”
bing
selise @ 3
I’ve seen that argument, but I’m not convince GM was an ally before. One can also argue that they have no reason to oppose it, and if I’m right — we don’t know the details — they may now be supportive of the underlying concept. emptywheel touched on this.
Good morning everyone.
Did anyone see the ads on single payer that were run on MSNBC, during/after the Dem debate?
Good Morning!
There are only 2 major types of reform in the Health Care debate. There are plans to put more people into the wagon, and there are plans to fix the wagon. No one is discussing how to fix the wagon. The health care system is broken for many reasons, but primarily it is because it is no longer about health care but about reimbursement and revenues. The entire system is organized around reimbursements. Health care transactions are code based not people based interactions. As a small provider, I am intimately involved with the business end as well as the clinical end of my professional activity. I believe strongly that only with a single payer system can we begin to change the system to address the health care problems of any given community rather than addressing our current problem-model of how to position the health care delivery component in question so as to maximize its percentage of high paying patients, or revenue sources.
Caw, caw.
The Big 3 have only themselves, or their former executives, to blame.
They lobbied like hell against the Clinton health plan in 93-94.
Idiots.
Insurance is not health care.
We need a non for profit medical system.
American is greed driven and it is destroying the social fabric.
Scarecrow @ 6
agreed. that’s why i called them potential allies.
taking on the insurance companies is going to take all the help we can get. sitting on the sidelines isn’t enough.
otoh, i don’t regret this deal… sounds like it could be good for the workers… i hope it really will be run in an open and transparent way.
I think we all have to view this GM/UAW plan with great suspicion. It is just like trading the employer-paid defined benefit pension plan with the 401K. If the market does well, then the plan will remain funded. If the bottom falls out (as is certainly likely over the next few years), the plan will not be able to meet its obligations to the employees and retirees.
If the UAW and GM had banded together to insist (along with other unions and major corporations) that we get publicly funded single-payer health care, they would have saved an enormous amount of money and the workers would have assurance of lifetime care.
GM is not unaware of this. They currently build many of their cars in Ontario where they don’t have to contribute to health care and their costs are much lower.
As for the Dem candidates, I simply do not believe any candidate is serious about this if they include insurance companies in their plan design. That leaves me with Kucinich, who is arguably the only real Democrat in the race anyway.
Scarecrow @ 6
here’s where the argument fails also;
a single payer health plan can and should be part of whatever health plan any corporation provides for their labor force
part of the deal should be “if single payer becomes government policy then the corporate obligation will be reduced by the single payer factor”
you know, when a company brokers a deal, both parties have an obligation to create a deal that is good for all involved
if I broker a deal that puts the company out of bussiness then I didn’t do myself any good, I certainly didn’t do the company any good and I certainly didn’t do the government any good
so each party has to make responsible demands and there is the push and pull when dealing with a collective bargaining scenario
Good morning Scarecrow,
What you described (the GM-UAW agreement) sounds similar to how many (very) large companies handle insuring their own vehicles — they Self-Insure. That is, they are able to circumvent the insurance requirements of the states in which they are domiciled by, in effect, “ante-ing” up a large enough fund to cover all insurable contingencies. This is the “Law of Large Numbers” in operation: since they have few enough insurable risks compared to their total “sub-population” of insureds that they can serve as a model for the general population, and statistically predict the amount of money that would be needed to cover all insurable contingencies.
However, such a system can only work given a large enough pool of risks (I assume that the UAW is large enough for GM to take this plunge). If my reasoning is correct, what will be done for the millions who are employed by small businesses?
-MS
don’t know about the commercials, I listened to it on the CSPAN radio.
I want the debates to keep including all the candidates and give time fairly. Time allotment shouldn’t be based on poll numbers.
It’s important that we keep hearing the ideas from more than two voices.
And I don’t like Timmeh as a questioner, but that’s just me…
The cheesy “health care proposals” as Jonathan notes are about keeping the system and getting people insured.
This is a stupid band aid, thumb in the dyke approach.
Who will be the first to stomp on capitalism? A mainstream candidate? Not likely.
Insurance companies are leeches to our health care delivery. Many other providers have gotten on the get rich scheme… aspirins for 10$ a piece? Thousands a day to stay in a hospital bed? ha???
Jonathan @ 8
thank you for all that, sounds too sensible!
Elliott @ 15
g’morn Ellioott, what’s also important for the candidates;
read firedoglake, become a firedog without telling us who you are, the posters here are incredible assets for any campaighn
perris @ 18
morning back perris, miss you in the early morning
allan_in_upstate @ 9
why would the old clinton health plan have helped the “big 3″?
On health care and Presidential candidate debates. Someone should ask our candidates this very simple question, which can be answered yes or no.
‘Do you think rich people deserve better health care than poor people?’
Follow-up question in the (likely) event the candidate answers ‘no’.
‘If so, are you prepared to introduce legislation taxing private insurance policies that permit rich people to obtain better health care than poor people?’
Of course, we all know that the answer to this second question will be as clear as cold porridge, but it would still be nice to get the basic debate on the table instead of camouflaging it under various institutional schemes that don’t go to the heart of the matter.
my company and my union set up a health care trust many years ago, and i’m here to tell you it doesn’t work.
i and other union members could tell you about paying ever-higher premiums for coverage that doesn’t seem to cover much — two years our annual payraises were funneled into the trust to offset shortfalls and guess what? we have new shortfalls tthree times as large.
the trust concept is good for the company, which gets to back off its responsibilities and shrug, it’s your union’s issue.
but the only real answer is single-payer, and a wholesale revolution in paradigm that gets us in sync with the rest of the industrialized west: that health care is a basic right, not a for-profit market service.
Missed the debate last night. Let’s give credit where credit is due. Congressman Kucinich has been pushing the “single payer” system for a very long time. http://www.dennis4president.com/go/issues/a-health
y-nation/
Sounds like Russert asked a question about whether it would be acceptable for Israel to attack Iran (helping set the stage). Did any questions come up about the Israeli Palestinian conflict? Any questions about the most serious root cause of the conflict and unrest in the middle east? (I sent a question in) Probably not.
Russert and all the rest of the MSM are so intimidated they never ask this critical question. The candidates are tickled pink that they are not asked about the I/P conflict.
Anyone else notice that in the MSM and the blogosphere there was not one thing (that I am aware of) written about the part of Ahmadinejad’s address that was focused on the plight of the Palestinian people for the last “60 years”. No mention.
EPU’d from last night and still OT but very hot in the Net Neutrality arena:
Verizon blocks text messaging program from NARAL
I know NARAL is not the most favored group here at the lake but this is a much bigger issue. We need to get on the horn to our Senators/Reps to make this sort of thing illegal. We also need to apply pressure to Verizon.
Totally Unaceptable
Elliott @ 19
I am supposed to be at work by 8;45, I only get lucky when someone puts a post up early enough for me to post and then get to work on time
off to work again, see all later
Kathleen @23. To add to the MSM question: has anyone seen any non-blog report on the Aznar-Bush transcript published by El Pais? Or are back in the mode, don’t ask don’t tell?
Kathleen @ 23
Russert is not intimidate, he is part of the cabal.
The debate occurring here, this morning, is precisely the debate that needs to be taking place throughout our nation; in every household, in every political meeting and at every job-place. Until such debate is joined
there can be no serious shaping of our collective vision of the future. Genuine national ’security’ must be understood as relating directly to the health and well-being of each and every member of our society. The ‘divine right’ of money must be put into its proper place. Any society which cannot grasp that dealing with the real needs of its people must come first cannot prosper or, ultimately, survive.
selise @ 20
It would (possibly) have helped reign in the very fast growth in insurance premiums that was occurring then (and is again now).
Michael in Park Slope @ 14
I think you’re right. The key is to create a large pool so share the risk. UAW may be large enough. If Ford and Chrysler adopt the same concepet, will they create their own pools, or become part of the larger UAW pool. It’s the concept I care about here, and the message it will send others. Parts suppliers will want to join; then dealers, then body shops, etc. The aggregate “auto industry” — We’re talking about a significant percentage of the working force.
I’ve talked about the “pool” concept before, and “guard the pool” is always my advice. Pooling almost always makes sense. it’s fear of the attractiveness of the pool that seems to be driven Bush/Republican opposition to the SCHIP expansion.
Johnathan @ 8:
What you said!
wait until all the boomers get in the pool
msgop thought the stike was too “retro” to cover but of course it would have involved actual reporting and understanding something besides the moveon ad
Scarecrow @ 30
Why can’t everybody swim in the pool? What about small business and the self employed?
I feel that the discussion that needs to be framed is where the issue is defined as “healthcare” NOT “coverage”. As long as we keep being distracted by the “coverage” issue, then the whole issue of getting everyone healthcare will not be addressed. Everyone needs healthcare, from conception on.
Jonathan at 8
Hi,
I like your post. Thanks.
You and I are both using the handle “Jonathan” here.
I guess we could flip for it.
Or I could just lurk, riding along on your good posts.
Or I could say something stupid, and you’d get a share of the blame.
What to do?
dmg @ 22
I would expect this to happen in a small company. What’s the size?
Knut Wicksell @ 26
61 mentions on Google news in the last 20 hours for “Aznar-Bush transcript published by El Pais”…
http://news.google.com/news?hl.....1121329164
SanderO:
Aspirin costs $10/ pill at a hospital because most hospitals use a formula of 300% $10 to price their dispensables.
The fact is that such pricing is largely irrelevant as most insurance companies took advantage of the post 93 failure to balance the spread of managed care and forced hospital reimbursements to extremely low contracted rates. The only person who pays $10 for an aspirin is the person without insurance.
The provider communities responded by reorganizing into vertical channels that could more effectively leverage for higher rates. That has been a very successful strategy in the past 5 years and reimbursements for providers involved in these corporatized provider channels has gone up. Now payers are responding with a high stakes game of cutting reimbursements and saying to providers “take it or leave it”. If the single payer proponents are smart they will understand this and gain the support of the provider community in passing single payer legislation.
so if the UAW is successful in negotiating lower prices from health care providers, won’t that mean that the rest of us will have to pay higher rates? this is one of the major problems with multi-payer systems.
i just don’t see this as anything other than a step back from single payer. hope i’m wrong.
About the only thing this administration has done for the US auto industry is to devalue the dollar to the point that our fairly unattractive autos look inviting to foreign buyers, ’cause they’re now as cheap internationally as they look, feel and sound. If the industry didn’t have to tack on a couple grand to the car price tag for health insurance, they’d be even more attractive.
Single payer - outside the industry, run by the USPHS, if the US Public Health Sevice still exists.
Jonathan @ 8
Excellent. thanks, J, so well put.
I think the key thing mentioned in the blog is the fact that GM is seeking ways of unburdening itself of any responsibility or financial obligations over their employees beyond the barest minimum.
I’ve always regarded medical plans for workers to be a substitute for pay rises. It usually worked to the advantage of the employer to provide such a plan in lieu of more pay, in an actuarial sense.
With insurance company rates going ineluctably up owing to a variety reasons, not least of which is their current business model whereby they keep and invest as much as possible in hedge funds and pay people to ward off claims, the advantage of employer plans has now diminished having become much closer to parity with pay rises.
It is wrong to suggest that the GM-UAW agreement is a single-payer system. Who is the fiduciary in the trust fund? That would be the payer. They’re otherwise called private insurance companies.
What is absent in this blog is any mention of Kucinich and his genuine single-payer plan for America. It was basically absent from the ‘debate’. More energy should placed in forcing other candidates, during these “debates”, e.g., to discuss their views on a plan of the type proposed by Kucinich.
It’s a sad day when one is forced to say that last night’s ‘debate’ was a banner moment for progressives. There was a difference, but it was only a very weak beginning.
Why can’t everybody swim in the pool? What about small business and the self employed?
that’s what the City of San Francisco’s new health plan does. I have to say a big shout out to Supervisor Tom Ammiano who put up with vicious attacks from the Golden Gate Restaurant Owners Group to fight for the new city health plan. It can be done
Scarecrow @ 36
actually, not too terribly small — i’d say about 2,000. the union covers about 1,200 of those.
the coverage has always been spotty; michael moore wasn’t kidding when he documented people WITH insurance to get the treatments they need. but it’s in the last 5-7 years, where premiums have gone up untethered to anything like the cost of living, that the problems have accelerated. and t’s precisely when the company has shrugged and wiped its hands clean of the mess.
Kathleen @ 23
I listened, and I believe Richardson the diplomat was the only one to make reference to the I/P issue. It was liveblogged at bluemassgroup,
http://www.bluemassgroup.com/frontPage.do
Jonathan at 35:
Having been of 2 minds most of my life I have no objection… But I have to go earn the yankee dolla’.. I’ll gladly take half the credit and blame for anything said under our god given gift.
Im out.. in the future I’ll use my casual name: jono
Morning everyone. OT but to all the NE Ohio folks there’s an antiwar protest at Kent State this afternoon - come if you can!
Mod,
please my comment at 35
thanks
We must deleechify health care! Fighting your insurance company over their refusal to pay for your hospital room because it was a “Private Room” and you were only entitled to a Semi-Private Room”. It doesn’t matter that the Hospital you were rushed to barely alive has only private rooms and you were in condition to check on what type of rooms they have. Or that they don’t want to pay for the Cardiac specialist since he wasn’t preapproved-uh, people, I was dying.
Even as you go through all the trouble of straightening this stuff out you discover that the 10, 25, and the 30% that you never noticed of all the things that they don’t cover, (look in your policy some time, you will be surprised to see all the various items-medical equipment, rentals, rehab, lots of “little things”) which quickly add up and leave you holding the bag for a fortune. The holes in your “good medical plan” are rather quickly exposed! Even the ambulance is not a 100% free ride (There really are no free rides in America!)
I found out just how easy it is to go the primrose path to financial ruin from medical expenses.
work calls me too. so i can keep the coverage that, y’know, doesn’t.
later y’all.
Jonathan @ 46
Jono,
I’ll look forward to many more of your excellent posts.
GM’s healthcare trust — one more exercise in voodoo economics at the expense of workers (though the UAW probably is gambling that national health insurance reform will step in before it totally collapses…) The financial security of working people just keeps eroding. Is the U.S. dollar the new Schrute Buck?
alank — we don’t know important details about the GM-UAW “trust.” I’m not claiming it is exactly like single-payer; only that conceptually it moves in that direction because of the pooling effect. Nor would i suggest that industries across the US should leap to this model. What I’m pointing to is that the pooling aspect of the trust — a large trust in this case — is analogous to a concept in single payer, and hence it opens the debate.
Before this, Hillary’s plan, based a lot on Edwards, had defined the scope of the debate — put limits on what the debate was about. The “trust” = pool concept broadens the debate. And there are public-finance features in Clinton and Edwards’ plans that can now be discussed openly — maybe they should be expanded? — meaning that Kucinich proposal is more likely to become part of the discussion too. As you point out, he’s been left out. The main benefit of the agreement is to reopen the debate about what’s possible.
dan_ps @ 47
Will the Ohio National Guard be there? Oh, wait, they’re out-of-state for a while.
katherine Graham Cracker @ 43
can you tell us more about what SF is doing?
Spreading the risk is the wrong approach.
If health care is a right, then the notion of risk is not part of the discussion.
We need to re tool the system so that people get both FREE preventative care and FREE care when they become ill or have a health crisis.
Who pays for this? We all pay for it from out tax dollars? Those who have more pay more… isn’t that the just and equitable approach?
Oh and stop spending so much on a war economy too.
“While the Democratic plans also include publically financed systems, including expanded access to Medicare and/or the Congressional health plan system, they could have gone further in laying the foundation for a transition to something like a single-payer system for basic health services, but they were afraid to get too far out in front.”
Scarecrow
Would you see this as a “good start” proposition which could then be carried forward by progressive members of congress? I tend to think that, while it is what I want in the end, a promise of single payer immediately is not realistic. I see it as a goal which will require negotiation and transition from the entrenched warfare we have now between the individual and the insurance industry. I expect people with little understanding of the issue get a little panicked when they think of an abrupt change (it happened here in MA) to a single payer system, but would benefit from what I think will need to be an ongoing process of change.
I am a single payer girl, but as anRN, I have to be realistic about what can be accomplished.
The City of San Francisco’s Plan
http://www.healthysanfrancisco.org/
“The health care system is broken for many reasons, but primarily it is because it is no longer about health care but about reimbursement and revenues.” –Jonathan
Exactly right. It’s a simple fact that any true health care reform is going to make two powerful groups very unhappy: (1) the insurance companies and (2) the sub-specialists.
Providing insurance coverage for more people is a small step in the right direction, but tackles neither of these formidable problems.
Guess no one saw the single-payer ads. There appear to be several. In each one, an ordinary person is talking to someone we don’t see. The person says we need universal health care, not insurance — etc, and asks why the candidate is not talking about real reform. Then then camera comes around and we see the person is talking to a cardboard cutout of Edwards [or Obama]. I assume there’s another for clinton, but I only saw the two. The ad ends focused on the cardboard candidates — who of course, aren’t really speaking or listening. I think the ads were very effective. And to buy them for the Dem debates was smart. JMO.
katherine Graham Cracker @ 58
thanks!
realworld @ 24
I don’t think this is off topic. This gets to the heart of Scarecrow’s post… What is public and what is private? Are phone companies part of our public infrastructure (like highways) or are they private entities entitled to conduct their business at will? Similarly, is healthcare a public right or a private business? In the rush to privatize everything in sight, we have completely lost the notion of the public domain and the public interest.
We have to fight back to assert our public rights. We have to force politicians to recognize that we have a right to high quality public infrastructure whether it’s bridges and roads, healthcare, communications, or the military. Because clearly, the corporate campaign donors have convinced them otherwise.
My comment at 59 just was released by mods. I’m honored; never been controversial before! ;-)
Zennurse - I agree that there has to be a transition, and people have to buy in as we go. My concern was that Clinton/Edwards/Obama seemed to define the boundary of the debate — so no one had to listen to ideas outside that boundary. It needed to be expanded.
I also like Senator Ron Wyden D Oregon plan -
http://www.standtallforamerica.com/
because the media (sic) are too stupid or lazy or only interested in their own agenda they never bother to cover what is currently being proposed….after all msgop couldn’t be bothered to cover the UAW strike because they were busy pimping their gop spokesperson russert
The transition is that the fed pays the insurance companies and then takes them over and then the no longer exist.
They can sell insurance for other things.
Good morning everyone! Has anyone seen JayT lately? if you see him, ask him to get in touch with me at dan AT twisted martini point com.
Rangoon is under siege from the army.
SanderO @ 56
I seems really hard for people to get away from the insurance mindset.
Scarecrow @ 53
I see your point.
But I’m not sure the GM model is appropriate for the use you want to make of it. The concept of a trust in charge of a pool is in essence the insurance concept.
katherine Graham Cracker @ 58
thanks… interesting idea will be interested in seeing how it works out.
zennurse @ 57
how was medicare implemented? wasn’t that a big move to single payer (for one age group)?
alank @ 70
I think conceptually; terrible at details: Make the US government, backed by Treasury, the trustee — then the issue of sustaining the trust becomes a revenue/tax issue. Social Security is a very large insurance program.
alank @ 70
As opposed to publicly funded health care in which the central concept is access, not pooling or sharing of risk.
Scarecrow,
It sounds as if GM wants to get out of the insurance business. It’s too costly, requires too much administration, and is a huge bone of contention between management and workers. Creating a trust to handle it, pushing it onto the UAW is the solution they’ve come up with.
But this makes me wonder whether those pushing for a single payer, medicare-for-all type of system might do well to seek political allies among the Chamber of Commerce folks. Surely GM is not the only major corporation looking to get out of the insurance business.
And if Fortune 500 CEOs start pushing for something like that, you can bet Congress will sit up and take notice. “What, it’s not just the DFHs that want this?”
They did that with another union a few years ago.(Sorry, I don’t remember which) The trust fund ran out, and now the whole shebang is uninsured.
The UAW traded benefits in hand for a promise of jobs retained. I hope the promise holds. I think the UAW is depending on our govt coming up with some universal care sooner rather than later.
Twisted Martini @ 67
He was here yesterday Twisted. Haven’t seen him today tho.
Peterr @ 75
I really don’t understand why employers have not been stamping their feet about this for years. The requirement for employers to provide health insurance is a huge issue affecting the international competitiveness of American exports.
Fern @ 69
We tend to think of insurance as a one on one contract between insurance company and the individual. But the concept of insurance has a public equivalent, with broadly shared risks, broadly paid for; we’re not used to thinking in those terms.
Peterr @ 75
Dr. Rev. Peterr:
Your last paragraph is soooooo true!
Universal health care is not solely for the uninsured. You can bet your bippy that BigCorpUSA is gonna take advantage of it…in the most corrupt way possible.
Fern @ 74
This is where the way we frame the discussion gets in the way. As you point out, in single payer system, from the point of view of the patient, the key concept is guaranteed, no-hassle access. But from the point of view of how it’s paid for, the concepts of pooling and shared risk are very relevant. Pooling and shared risk are part of what makes single payer more cost-effective for society as a whole. Access is what makes it attractive to every individual.
Here’s the thing. If you could put XXX dollars in an account who’s return would match medical inflation, GM would have done so long ago. The need to keep pace will force the fund managers to invest in hedges, derivatives, etc. - NOT conservative investments appropriate for such a fund. Retirement accounts all over the country, including those who’s investment strategy is governed by statute, are already into risky funds chasing returns.
Unless there is a mechanism for GM to replenish VEBA (I seriously doubt it), the fund will auger in sooner or later.
VEBA is the new ESOP - too risky for front-line employees.
zennurse @ 45
Thanks Zennurse…we know making “reference to” is not even close to discussing the I/P conflict. Root cause of anger in the middle east.
selise @ 72
good point
I actually have another post upstairs.
Scarecrow @ 81
Maybe that is how you have to frame it, but as someone who lives under a single-payer health system (Canada), I have to say it is hard to think of it in that way.
I tend to think of health care costs as simply a budget line like fixing the streets or paying for education - and I guess most Canadians would look at it in similar terms. If single-payer health care is a form of insurance, I think so are all these other government functions.
Scarecrow @ 85
Of course you do! I just commented.
Someone here is saying it’s in the trust of the UAW. I’m not sure what the deal is, not having examined it, but whether it involves either the UAW, GM, or some third party, it’s still private which is a major distinction from a government as single payer.
I would hate for such a system to be run by the Social Security Administration, btw. They’re worse than the archetypal state Motor Vehical Administration. I think for a single-payer system to work in this country, there would have to be an cultural transformation within the government itself.
Here’s where the argument meets the opposition-
“all profitable bussinesses will provide healthcare for their labor force so the country does not have to pay that corporations bills for them”
Businesses who have to compete with foreign operations that don’t provide health care are at a disadvantage, and will fight the idea of a mandatory health care burden placed on them. Better is single payer federal insurance. Besides the savings of all the redundancies and the profits of the insurance companies that will be saved, it will really free up the business world and solve so many social problems we have. IE. people being stuck in their jobs because of the insurance. Remember-the funds companies pay for anything come from the gross sales they make to us. So unless the companies revenue is foreign derived we the people (customers) are paying for it anyway. The big roadblock is the insurance companies themselves and their stockholders who are going to resist change with their money on the line. Maybe we should think about cashing them out to get past them. In the long run it will be worth it.
Scarecrow @ 64
and I agree. I was singularly unimpressed by both Obama and Clinton last night. Obama was just generally weak, and Hillary’s laughter at other candidates was derogatory and self-righteous(remember, no visuals). There is generally very little light between the 4 bigger (C, O, B, E) candidates IMO.
In terms of the questions, I was just insulted by the Bible verse question and was hoping that one of them would quote Buddha. I’d be interested to know how the students at Dartmouth read it.
Peterr @ 75
Petrr, it makes so much sense one wonders why they have not done so.
My theory: Multinationals own stock in one another, and sit on each others boards. The money they make on their pharma and insurance portfolios balance out the losses they take on health care, plus the pharma/insurances guys are saying “rock our boat, and we’ll rock yours.”
Plus, the dominant government/corporate theme is keeping people down, and what better tool than their health?
Scarecrow,
As you correctly note, the devil will surely be in the details. However, we can make a few educated guesses.
1. I assume that the “trust” set up to fund the plan will qualify as a VEBA, and will therefore be exempt from Federal income tax on its earnings under Internal Revenue Code Section 501(c)(9). There may need to be a legislative change in Michigan to provide it with an similar exemption from Michigan’d odd new substitute for a traditional income tax. Absent such tax exemptions, one wonders how the numbers could ever work.
2. It seems clear that the investment performance of the trust will be a critical determinant of the success of the plan. One wonders whether the trustees will come under pressure from the union to make “socially responsible” investment decisions, and whether they will have the stones to resist such pressures and always act in the best interests of the plan participants.
3. Another key question is who will be doing the administration, including claims processing. It will be tempting, one thinks, to outsource administration to someone who already has infrastructure in place. However, most of the players who have infrastructure in place are insurance companies, which raises the disturbing possibility that the plan will be administered with the insurance mindset that so many have come to know and not love.
4. If the trust experiences a run of poor investment performance, to the point that it cannot meet its obligations to participants, what will GM’s obligations be?
This is going to be really interesting.
I’m reminded of something to do with “…coming home to roost.”
Since I came to live here in Cana-duh, I have been exposed to the Canadian Healthcare System and, like other systems; it has its failings and successes. Overall it’s a damn sight better than the alternative (I’m looking at you, U.S.).
Now, corporations that cannot “outsource” their industries (well, we now get quite a bit of GM’s and Ford’s manufacturing jobs) are starting to see that healthcare costs are crippling their bottom lines.
BUT, those that make the major decisions about such matters are, like many celebrities, insulated from the actual repercussions of these matters. They get paid if the contract is signed with the UAW or not. When they move on to a new position, they take a heavy compensation package with them and their doctors are private and expensive (and usually covered in their compensation contracts).
I fear that it will remain business-as-usual in the U.S. for at least another decade, until there is either no local non-service jobs left or disenfranchised people take to the streets with pitchforks and torches.
I have faith in one thing: Politicians will deliver nothing they promise during their run-for-the-Whitehouse… and not even try until their second term.
I double-dog dare you to show me on President who really pushed in his first term any significant positive legislation.
And why is it that “…you don’t want a system like Canada!”??
Has anyone who has said this ever lived under the Canadian system?
I’ll put my house up against yours if you can find me one person (honest person would be a qualifier here).
The middle-man must be cut out of the equation of healthcare. They don’t provide healthcare. Doctors, nurses, clinics, and hospitals are the providers. Why is it that health insurance companies decide on what hospital, doctors, services, medications, and tests are covered. This is absurd that Americans must seek permission for our individual healthcare needs from monarchical profit driven corporations. I want to be able to walk into a doctor’s office and be asked what’s ailing me instead of who’s your health insurance provider. Health insurance provider, now that’s an oxymoron.
RockPaperScizzors @ 94
I like your consistent position on financial issues. Are you a disgruntled insider?
Here’s how the UAW VEBA at Caterpillar worked out.
http://www.mlive.com/newsflash.....=autonews2
what IS insurance?
It means I can pay my bills.
If I don’t get the bills and they go to the government…then I don’t NEED insurance.
I don’t get a bill for the sidewalk I walk on or the street I drive on.
We don’t need a corporate entity involved in taking care of our public roads and making a profit and deciding who is worthy of travel.
Same can be for the health care we get.
We are a resource for our country and we need to be cared for by our country.
Greed and profit is ruining the world.
We need to change that.
diogenes @ 96
As the story to which you link makes abundantly clear, the VEBA at Cat was underfunded from day one. Why do you assume that the UAW won’t learn from that mistake?
There has to be a motivation to move on a single payer system. I would hope public health issues would be the highest motivator.
This summer, I was exposed to rabies. I had to receive the rabies vaccine. We also had to spend a bundle to confirm whether or not the rest of our family received an exposure. Luckily, they did not.
The rabies vaccine is billing out to over $700 for the series (after insurance - otherwise it would be over $6000). Imagine if our whole family needed them? Many departments of Public Health no longer administer the rabies shot because their budgets have been cut. The funds in public health coffers are extremely low and there are few funds to support families with extreme financial burdens and no insurance.
If we had been in an extremely stressed financial situation and no insurance, we may not have been able to afford the vaccine. Thus, a rabies outbreak would have occured. This would have cost the CDC quite a chunk to curb the human spread of the virus.
Now the CDC posts on their website that about 40% of the rabies vaccines administered annually (minus those in practitioner fields needing them -like vets) are probably not needed and are done just in case.
Yet, one human case can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to a community.
With my experience, I found myself thinking about the families that would not be able to afford any kind of medical care for any public health concern and that the CDC would just end up an after-the-fact patch of intervention NOT prevention.
We no longer have preventative medicine. We developed the concept of “preventative” medicine due to past histories of pandemics.
Our country needs to wake up before we have to have another history lesson and insure our citizens in a way that allows for preventative medicine and intervention before it is too late. As in the past, today’s epidemics will begin in poverty stricken areas and will be costly to cities and states. Preventative medicine for all would reduce this burden on society.
Additionally, it will make our country more competitive in many industries.
BTW- I was denied administration of the vaccine by one local hospital even though I had paperwork from the local health department stating I needed to receive the vaccine. SO fun…
SanderO @ 97
Precisely.
burnspbesq @ 92
The long run viability of the trust and its management are of course critical. That’s why I think the size of this thing matters — and ultimately, the size should be the US taxpaying public, so that the trust is backed by the “full faith and credit” of the US Treasury. — again, I’m not advocating company-specific trusts per se; it’s the larger concept I’m interested in as a way of opening the debate to public vs private funding.
zennurse @ 90
Yes, that question was offensive; it implies if your favorite “verse” is not from the Bible, you’re not qualified to be President.
kdh22 says@95
I like your consistent position on financial issues. Are you a disgruntled insider?
…………………..
No, but have dealt with insurance companies. Doctors, nurses, and healthcare workers are necessary. Health insurance companies are expendable. Cut-out the middleman.
Corporate driven Oprah(god, I can’t stand her in general) has Michael Moore on talking about Sicko.
realworld @ 24
Verizon reverses on abortion rights messaging
SanderO @ 97
Oh yes you do — they’re called taxes.
Most cities and states have income taxes, and WRT “the street you drive on” there’s a little thing known as the “gasoline tax.”
You’re so used to paying them, you don’t think about what they pay for!
burnspbesq @ 99
I base it on my experience as a union activist. I spent about as much time trying to convince our leadership to be responsive to the membership, as I did representing the members against a very anti-union management.
As to a specific answer: there is no way to design a sound investment vehicle that will maintain pace with medical inflation. IF UAW did not negotiate an ample replenishment from GM, they’re toast.
I read somewhere UAW is projecting this VEBA has funding that will see them thru the next 80 years. I hope they’re right.
Every time this subject comes up I write, seemingly in vain, that there is a very good plan for universal single payer comprehensive health care authored by CA Senator Sheila Kuehl (Yes, she’s Zelda from Dobby Gillis). The plan SB840 cuts out the insurance industry and covers ALL RESIDENTS - ALL RESIDENTS regardless of employment or immigration status by using the overhead of approximately 30% that is the profit margin of the insurance industry to cover everyone. Additionally, the plan provides for transparency and best practices. You, the heathcare seeker, and your doctor, decide the best course of care, and the providers are tracked to determine where you get the best patient outcomes, pricing transparency etc.,
If any of the current or future (I’m talking to YOU Al Gore) candidates adopted this plan, it would be the boldest example of political leadership in our lifetimes.
Partial, incremental fixes will never do because until the insurance industry is out of the picture, healthcare will not meet our needs.