(Naomi Wolf is the author of "The End of America -- Letters of Warning to a Young Patriot," an amazing book that discusses, among other things, the implications of the growth of paramilitary forces like Blackwater. She'll be here for the Book Salon on Oct. 14 -- JH)
The New York Times reported today that Blackwater, the infamous organization that has been accused of killing civilians in Iraq, “has been involved in a far higher rate of shootings while guarding American diplomats in Iraq than other security firms.” A mercenary firm in Iraq with an itchy trigger finger is bad enough. But it now appears that Blackwater’s activities may be massively expanded -- and not in Iraq.
In little noticed news, Blackwater, Raytheon, Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman, and Arinc were recently awarded a collective $15 billion -- yes, billion -- from the Pentagon to conduct global counter-narcotics operations. This means that Blackwater can be deployed to engage with citizens on a whole new level of intimacy anywhere around the world -- including here at home. What is scarier than scary is that Blackwater’s overall plans are to do more and more of its armed and dangerous ‘security’ operations on U.S. soil.
In my recently released book, The End of America -- Letters of Warning to a Young Patriot, I describe the 10 steps that would-be tyrants use to close down a democracy and produce a “fascist shift.” The third of the ten steps is to ‘Develop a Paramilitary Force.’ Without a paramilitary force that is not answerable to the people’s representatives, democracy cannot be closed down; however, with such a force available to would-be despots, democracy can be drastically and quickly weakened.
Every effective despot -- from Mussolini to Hitler, Stalin, the members of the Chinese Politburo, General Augusto Pinochet and the many Latin American dictators who learned from these models of controlling citizens -- has used this essential means to pressure civilians and intimidate dissent. Mussolini was the innovator in the use of thugs to intimidate what was a democracy, if a fragile one, before he actually marched on Rome; he developed the strategic deployment of blackshirts to beat up communists and opposition leaders, trash newspapers and turn on civilians, forcing ordinary Italians, for instance, to ingest emetics. Hitler studied Mussolini; he deployed thugs -- in the form of brownshirts -- in similar ways before he came formally to power.
In light of these historical warning, we must ask, “What is Blackwater?” According to reporter Jeremy Scahill, the firm has 2,300 private soldiers deployed in nine countries, and maintains a database of an additional 21,000 to call upon at any time. Blackwater has over “$500 million in government contracts -- and that does not include its secret ‘black’ budget...” [It also did not include, at the time Scahill’s wrote this description, the massive anti-narcotics contract described above.] One congressman pointed out that in terms of its manpower, Blackwater can overthrow “many of the world’s governments.” Recruiters for the company seek out former military from countries that have horrific human rights abuses and use secret police and paramilitary forces to terrify their own populations: Chileans, Peruvians, Nigerians, and Salvadorans.
Blackwater is coming home to Main Street, and one of our key constitutional protections is at stake. The future for growth is directed at increased deployment in the US in cases of natural disaster -- or in the event of a ‘public emergency.’ This is a very dangerous situation, of course, now that laws have been passed that let the President decide on his say-so alone what a ‘public emergency’ might be.
The Department of Homeland Security hired these same Blackwater contractors to patrol the streets of New Orleans in the wake of Hurricane Katrina -- for a contract valued at about $73 million. Does Blackwater’s reputation for careless violence against civilians in Iraq, protected by legal indemnification, matter to us? Scahill reports at least one private contractor’s accounts of other contractors’ abrupt shooting in the direction of American civilians in the wake of Katrina: “After that, all I heard was moaning and screaming, and the shooting stopped.”
How protected is Blackwater from prosecution for its crimes? The company’s lawyers have argued that Blackwater can’t be held accountable by the Uniform Code of Military Justice, because they aren’t part of the US military; but they can’t be sued in civil court, either -- because they are part of the US military.
Does this affect the strength of our democracy? Look at how history shows thug groups have been directed at intimidating voters. Americans need to be reminded that both Italy before Mussolini and Germany before Hitler were working, if fragile, parliamentary democracies. Thugs were used in both countries to intimidate voters exercising their rights. Mussolini’s fascists stood menacingly near voting booths to make sure citizens ‘voted responsibly’; William Shirer wrote that the Austrians voted 99% in favor of their country’s annexation by Germany -- not surprising, he observed, since intimidating groups of brownshirts looked through a wide slit in the voting booth where the election committee did its work. The oddly specific scene of groups of identically dressed young men -- later identified as Republican staffers -- crowding and shouting at the vote counters in Florida in 2000 has strong historical precedents.
The Founders knew from their own experience of standing armies, responsive only to a tyrant, how dangerous such a situation was; King George’s men -- armed with blanket warrants -- invaded the colonists’ homes, trashed their possessions, and even raped Colonial women. It was that bitter experience that led them to insist on the second amendment -- ‘a well regulated militia’ that was responsive to the people and could not be deployed against the people of the United States by would-be despots. The founders knew that American tyranny was not only possible, it was likely, in the event of weakened checks and balances; and they knew a mercenary army was the advance guard of despots.
Blackwater is available to anyone who can write the checks. If there is a need to ‘restore public order’ in the next Presidential election -- a power that the President now can define as he sees fit -- Blackwater can be deployed. If the President declares an emergency, Blackwater can be deployed. And history shows us how very quickly citizen dissent and democratic processes close down when physically intimidating men -- who are armed and not answerable to the people -- are abroad in the land.
Those who read history should understand what we are more and more likely to see -- now that a paramilitary force answerable to Bush and corporations like Halliburton but not to the people's representatives is in place. Mussolini and Hitler began to deploy their paramilitary to patrol key public spaces early -- when Italy and Germany were still parliamentary democracies and neither leader had yet seized power. These leaders deployed their paramilitary groups in the halls of Parliament and the Reichstag when these were still functioning representative democracies, thus intimidating the people's political leaders. Then the paramilitary groups were deployed to violently contain opposition protests --- again, in what were still open, if fragile, democratic societies at the time.
(According to `the blueprint' described in my book, unless people wake up in time, we in America are likely to see a call for a `security requirement' for Blackwater to be deployed to `protect' Congress and to be deployed around voting areas `to maintain public order', and, unless we intervene, we will see them start to do crowd control when there are antiwar marches or other demonstrations. Then, again according to historical models, protesters will increasingly start to get hurt for `resisting arrest' or for `provocations.')
Because, to my sorrow, I know `the blueprint', I was sad but not at all surprised when a horrified friend who works in downtown New York City told me that armed private contractors -- who look like members of the NYPD but who are not answerable to any government entity -- have been placed around the U.S. stock exchange. I went down to check it out. Indeed, Wall Street and the entire periphery of the Stock Exchange was like a militarized zone in the hands of what was not evident to onlookers as being in fact a private army: there were barricades; three immense trucks parked to deter and investigate pedestrians; armed dog handlers with their big dogs on tightly held leashes -- all of this looks like government security but it isn't. The company, hired, the guards said, by the stock exchange itself, is neutrally called `T & M.' (More investigation of such companies is called for.)
I went up to a guard and, chatting sweetly, established from him that, indeed, none of these men were NYPD or even US government agents.
“That's really big gun,” I remarked admiringly of his massive firearm, encased in leather. “What kind is it?”
“It's a Glock,” said the contractor, with shy pride.
“Heavens!,” I said. “What kind of guidelines does the company give you for shooting?”
“Use our discretion,” he said. I thanked him, my heart racing.
In Iraq, men with guns not answerable to the people's law or government can shoot at will at Iraqi civilians. That is not freedom. As Blackwater or other renamed versions of paramilitary contractors, sometimes with intimate ties to this administration and to Halliburton, start to patrol the streets of our nation, without our debate or consent, we can easily wake up to find that we have a National Guard that is supposed to be answerable to governors, and a Congress that is supposed to oversee the military -- but it's too late anyway; the guns in our streets are already in the hands of people who are answerable to those writing the checks -- and no longer answerable to the now-vulnerable American people.
Blackwater’s actions in Iraq should be a wake-up call to us here at home -- to restore the constitution and the rule of law before we are too intimidated to do so.
(Portions of this post appeared originally on Powell’s Book Blog.)
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‘alooo…
Naomi couldn’t be here today, she’s on her book tour. But it’s a fabulous book and I really recommend it, she provides great context to the stuff we talk about here every day.
Wow, wow, and wow!
and wow again!! this is indeed alarming…and hopefully a wake-up call
T&M:
http://www.tandmprotection.com/
T&M protecting hedge fund directors:
http://www.tandmprotection.com/new_14.html
Erik Prince and the rest of these Black shirts from Blackwater and the other “security” firms should be hauled in chains before the Congress to answer for their crimes immediately. And called on their BS “Christianity” that supposes that because they’re “saved” they can do anything at all with no repurcussions.
“What kind of guidelines does the company give you for shooting?”
“Use our discretion,” he said
Oh, WOW. Anyone want to dig out their copies of “V for Vendetta”?
Shakespeare had it right.
the Regime doesn’t have to do this in this country, because there is no serious opposition party.
if the nominal opposition, the (D) party, does not care enough about the founding principles of this country, the thug caste will be entrenched enough that there may be no turning back.
something I wrote during the 2004 election season, before I met the doggies.
As Blackwater goes, this is still pertinent, if not exactly OT…
The Teachings of Don Juan;
What do they teach us about Bush and Kerry…
In his fiction series describing the profound teachings of native mystic Don Juan, Carlos Castenada explored the variable nature of conflict and how we all approach it differently.
Comparing John Kerry’s Viet Nam record and George Bush’s newfound military experience, we can look to Don Juan for a window into truth that seems to have escaped the general public thus far.
In the hazy wake of the 9-11 tragedy, as we thundered through Afghanistan to root out the adversary, Bush’s neocon pals found the opportunity to start converting the”Hunt for Bin Laden” project into the “War with Iraq” project.
This brings us to the lesson we can take from Castenada and his guide Don Juan. In these two very diverse objectives, the difference between George Bush and John Kerry are clearly identified and magnified.
Bush is a Warrior.
Kerry is a Hunter.
There are those who suggest Bush erred from his determined target when he diverted to making war against Iraq instead of hunting down bin Laden. He had no choice. It is his nature to make war, not to hunt down an adversary. His determined target must be in the form of something similar to himself, albeit smaller and weaker.
Compare Kerry and the Democrats to the Bushes, both of them,and their conservative co-conspirators.
Bush 41 and 43, represent the military-industrial juggernaut turned neocon behemoth, propping up and knocking down punching-bag dictators like Noriega and Hussein. And all to perpetuate an archaic, but shamefully profitable military-industrial construct based on World War for Profit.
These are the misguided policies that brought our forces standing toe to toe with an inflated dummy filled with imaginary weapons of mass distraction
We knocked the air out of the dummy and declared “Mission Accomplished” as our real adversary, the local terrorists, slunk away with explosives that the Carlyle Group probably provided. How ironic that any given I.E.D. that kills our servicemen and contractors, might have started with some “connected” arms dealer like Carlyle.
This new adversary, the real adversary, is not a uniformed buffoon, but a shrewd and lawless many-headed dragon called terror, with no national or moral boundaries.
It recruits an army that will never face us front and center with polished swords on cleanly drawn battle lines, in the “noble” manner of a true warrior. They can only sneak back upon us as we sleep, or catch us unaware because we grow complacent between their terror. If we face it like a warrior, cutting off its writhing heads with clumsy weapons, we only give rise to new heads.
Bush and the warrior-mentality military machine are a fossil. The modern world, and the USA in particular, does not require nor will it accomodate a warrior mentality any more.
We must convert to the Hunter mind set. It saved us in the Revolution.
In Viet Nam, Kerry talked to some Rangers, not just his fellow swiftboaters, and anyone in Airborne will tell you what Kerry said about atrocities was not only true, they had orders from above to mutilate corpses, to prove an enemy kill. It was the nature of the Viet Nam war. Atrocities were as common in Viet Nam as amphetamines were on the road to Baghdad, but neither dirty little fact will ever be admitted to, especially by those most culpable.
Viet Nam was our first mistake with the Warrior/Hunter mistake, and Iraq has proven to be a fatal rerun. Time and again, because we fail to recognize the new nature of war, our Warriors are casually positioned be sitting ducks for their Hunters. See the movie “Platoon” for a graphic example.
We swat at fleas with billion-dollar baseball bats, and break our own bones in the process. And all the time, companies like Carlyle, and Haliburton, ( the hyphen in “military-industrial”), benefit from all of it, raking in prolific profits as our warriors fall unprotected.
And here at home, while terrorists trained openly for those ill-fated airline flights, Ashcroft spent millions of dollars and thousands of precious man-hours surveilling and busting glassblowers for making pot pipes, because the only war they had to fight then was the war on drugs.
Why must we be so addicted to war?
If there is only one advantage we must take from our “lone superpower” status, it is to put an end to the very notion of war, and deal with evil where it really lives; not in some vain, noble struggle against an equal adversary, but in a relentless hunt to find and disarm those who would cause violence, in any fashion.
JEP
well, you’ve freaked me out.
Thank you Naomi. Long over due that Blackwater gets called out. Long overdue
———————————–
Walk Out for the Jena 6 Oct 1 at 12 noon in all time zones
http://www.hhnlive.com/news/more/1821
i saw somewhere(can’t remember where) that there was a connection between this group and amway.is this so?if so,what would the connection be?
i used to be in favor of gun control, but the bush crime family made me understand why the founders included the second amend.
may @ 14
Onward Christian Mercenaries???
what timing! i just (2 minutes ago) opened the amazon pkg with naomi wolf’s and naomi klein’s books.
may @ 14
From The Nation
This fellow has been blogging on the on going threats from Shrubco and unfortuately has been accurate
http://www.america-weeps.blogspot.com/
So where do the major Dem candidates stand on Blackwater?
Why isn’t anyone asking them? I mean outside the MSM, who could give a fuck.
Why don’t the blogs get their heads together and have someone pose the question the next time the candidates throw them a bone?
This shit has got to be outlawed.
selise @ 17
cosmic!
http://www.sourcewatch.org/ind.....kwater_USA
Oh, and Ken Starr is their lawyer.
Again,
This country never was actually free. That is the great MYTH!!!!!
America has always held minorities in a fascist state.
What is new is that many White People, the MAJORITY, are starting to feel this pressure. The Good news that comes from this type of fascist move is that the maybe there will be some pushback from White America to the point where the USA they thought they lived in can truly be the USA that includes everyone and exploits no one.
Toby Wollin @ 22
You can’t make this stuff up!
Bit NOLA @ 20
don’t know… but if they’re anything like our senators at the DPC hearing last friday, then they’re probably pretty ignorant. which means that they can be educated.
may @ 14
Huge resource from Cornell University:
http://www.theocracywatch.org/new_links.htm
The Rise of the Religious Right in the Republican Party
a public information project of the Center for Religion, Ethics, and Social Policy
at Cornell University
The head of T&M used to be on board with Valiant Systems, check this out:
“Valiant Systems to Acquire and Build Homeland Security Companies
Detroit, MI – February 6, 2007 // Huron Capital Partners LLC announced today that it has formed a partnership with industry executives Michael T. Dougherty and Lucy C. Dougherty to build a platform company in the homeland security industry. Through their holding company, Valiant Systems, they plan to acquire and build companies in the homeland security, national security, defense, law enforcement support and forensic advisory services sectors.”
http://www.huroncapital.com/ne.....e=02/06/07
it does look like the pieces for the ‘08 continuation of the coup are starting to come together …
expand the war to Iran, get the MSM in line and distracted.
get blackwater in place here at home doing counter-narcotics work.
expand to poll security during the election.
declare an emergency which allows us to “count” the election results, but doesn’t allow for an orderly transition. Guiliani is “discovered” to be the winner (why do you think his bud is the new AG prospect).
Bush/Cheney “hand over” power to the ghoul. Cheney stays on as vp-for-life to ensure continutity during the crisis.
SCOTUS ratifies it all as necessary given the state of emergency and retires under protection to undisclosed locations.
dakine01 @ 18
thank you.i wonder how many people who spend so much time and energy selling ,know that.
i wonder also,if discounts are given between enterprises.
amway in Iraq?
dakine01 @ 18
DeVos family in top 20 donors to RNC and Bush/Cheney. They feel they own the party. They are far-right freaks, too.
Naomi Klein and Naomi Wolf should be combined into a giant Mecha-Naomi to combat the forces of darkness in the land.
I heart Naomi(s)
lee5 @ 28
Sounds plausible, if not probable.
LS @ 27
reading that gave me chills down my spine.
A commenter on another thread had a very interesting link related to this…
http://powerofnarrative.blogsp.....eadly.html
T&M — sheesh, they don’t even try any longer, do they?
Time and Money.
Most expensive option for contract services is T&M billing.
kdh22 @ 33
If they try it, they will find a 300,000,000lb gorilla to deal with, and it will be a really angry one.
Most of these security companies are not publicly traded. How does one go about figuring who’s running them? And profiting from them?
I bet cross-referencing that information with opensecrets.org data would be most interesting.
kdh22 @ 33
Yeah, that does sound like a plan ….oh and fuck a BlackWater.
it seems all the major security firms are intertwined….and major supporters of ohhh guess….. the repugs!! ironic - coincidence….i dont think sooooooooooo…ruling class getting their ducks in a row as we sleep but some of us here are waking up thanks to the lake and other blogs ;-)
ShytBouquet @ 23 -
i agree, there’s always been people who suffered great injustices in our country. but having my world view formed during the ’60s and early ’70s i used to think that we were on a trajectory towards a more inclusively free society. that trajectory has changed…. and that’s a problem for everyone, not only white americans - indeed, i’d argue that it is the poor, non-white and/or the non-christian that are at greatest risk from our trajectory towards a facsist police state.
Wow. BlackWater to engage in the war on drugs? Sounds like a backdoor way to get the thugs into the U.S. to start intimidating U.S. citizens.
Rayne @ 35
I dunno. If structured “properly” a cost plus fee can be quite expensive to the buyer.
Rayne @ 35
One more of their in-your-face names
i cant link to save my soul but i sure can read those links - thanks pups :)
A little OT but bear with me here…
I was walking out of the office yesterday and something caught my eye. It was the logo on the armored car parked on East Randolph Street. It caught my graphic designer’s eye because it graphic seemed wrong. It was a bear or dog paw graphic with five pads and claws. I found it odd in that, at least with dogs, that there are four paw pads and claws. I’m a dog owner, I should know.
It wasn’t until later when checking my politiblogs, possibly this one, that I saw the Blackwater logo. A bear/dog paw with five pads and claws. HoLeeShite, I thought to myself, is Blackwater operating armored car services here in the states? Can anyone help me out here? WTF?
Thanks.
Here is interesting post from Arthur Silber that dovetails with this excellent post.
http://powerofnarrative.blogsp.....eadly.html
and this youtube from Jeremy Scahill
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqM4tKPDlR8
Trying to think out loud a little down the road here.
What exactly is it that they hope to accomplish with this mercenary force?
There are three hundred million people in this country.
Have they the objective to make two hundred and fifty million US citizen serfs?
To do what?
If the plan is to actually rule this country as a true dictatorship one has to deal with the inevitable resistance.
Our military is effectively broken but twenty five thousand armed mercenaries is hardly enough to control the population in this country, it is logistically almost impossible, the country itself is too broad and the geography too diverse.
So I am back to my original question,What exactly do they hope to accomplish?
So depressing. Those who read Kos and Firedog already know this stuff. Those who don’t….
We live in a fully conscious minority. We sputter. We wave our hands. Nobody is heard. Nothing changes.
I imagine the progressive community as a fully conscious patient unable to respond while doctors stand over him discussing the pros and cons of pulling the feeding tube, and the debate clearly leaning toward pulling the tube.
Hello! We’re here! We have an opinion about this shit! But the life and death debate drones on above us, without us.
I doubt that all the fulminations of the spheroblogs will make a difference…. it will require an exogenous economic or resource (oil) shock to knock middle class America on its head… but the Blackwater masters are getting ready for that, and they will have their own fascistic answers ready to be deployed.
I’ve always wanted to believe that democratic means could defeat totalitarian plans…. but these days I find myself wishing for aggressive fighting progressives…. people with a plan to take over government if necessary, in order to “preserve democracy.” You KNOW that the fascists are planning to do that… to take over government in order to preserve corporate fascism with a democratic facade.
Where are the progressive think tanks and back rooms who are planning to use military force, dangerous and contradictory as the notion seems, to actually re-take democracy from the corporate mob?
I fully understand the danger of that path… the contradiction between using undemocratic means to restablish a democratic end. The other side has the advantage of planning to use undemocratic means to establish an unddemocratic end — they have the advantage of consistency. But the defense of democracy may require living with the uncomfortable use of military power to re-establish a political order that is not based on military power. We may have to get comfortable with that compromise.
selise @ 41
Look at this way. If you are already at risk on a daily basis, how much would additional risk affect you? Very little.
Currently, Any poor inner city area ALREADY Looks like a police state.
Well I have loaded my squirrel gun and pulled my laptop underneath my bed in the guest room, the shades are drawn. I just wanted to say I am lurking and scared now..
Even Harpers magazine ran an article suggesting a general strike.. I am on strike now, have been for quite some time..won’t somebody join me?
My rage recently hit a plateau of sorts..like snow on an off air television station..but I can’t turn it off even when I unplug the damn thing.
If we the people don’t conduct some dramatic massive (very peaceful) acts soon it will only get worse and far more difficult the longer we wait.
well, we gotta watch the leverage points to keep one of these nightmare scenarios from rolling out…
blackwater getting contracts for domestic security/drug-interdiction of any kind is one of them.
the ongoing US atty and voter supression plan is another. makes me nervous to see the ghoul’s bud pushed as the next AG.
the spinelss dems inability to stand up for anything and over-eagerness to support war w/ iran is a third.
From Whitewater to Blackwater: Ken Starr, the Mercenaries’ New Lawyer
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/1027-26.htm
Okay, like I wasn’t creeped out enough already. That has really stepped up the urgency of my attempt to organize “peace action” by as many area churches that are concerned with peace.
Now our work won’t have to be limited to ending the occupation of Iraq, preventing the invasion/bombing of Iran, and encouraging support for H.R. 1921, the Religious Freedom Peace Tax Fund Bill.
Now we’ll have to be active against mercenary armies on U.S. soil. Argh, it’s going to be a busy Fall.
Thank you so much for writing this book. If only I could be sure they won’t just throw it out, I’d buy copies for the members of our county board of supervisors (San Diego), who are now, at this very moment, debating whether or not to authorize a Blackwater “base” in the southern part of the county. The last thing we need is an army of these thugs on our doorstep, no doubt angling for a contract to patrol the US-Mexican border.
lee5 at 28
my bet for the event that brings forth the national emergency: the shooting down abroad of 1 or 2 american airliners
Does Blackwater have executive privilege?
If you read the dkos diary in this link in relation to the article above, you start seeing how seemingly unrelated issues may share a common thread.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo.....13267/8436
dakine01 @ 43
Been there, done that. Have added an “asshole” premium, too, depending on how bad the customer.
Let [Time] equal [Cost] and [Money] equal [Fee plus Asshole Premium].
Ouch.
Bay State Librul @ 56
I don’t think so, but I thought I read somewhere that they’ve claimed both privileges and immunities normally reserved for government employees and members of the military, on the one hand, and, on the other hand, claim not to be bound the army’s rules of engagement and other rules to which government employees and soldiers are subject to… which basically would make them above all applicable law.
So if black water breaks into someone’s house that person would have the right to kill them?
Our has the pentagon deputized them?
mike @ 48
oh ffs, you don’t utilize the worst tactics of the enemy, that’s agent provocateur type talk.
a real Progressive political Party or faction or entity has not even been tried, due to co-dependence on an unfaithful (D) party.
Bay State Librul @ 57
Can’t tell you - it’s classified.
All very recognizable to a West Virginian.
Blackwater=Baldwin-Felts
They only way they were defeated last time was for local law enforcement, backed up by armed local citizens, to confront and fight them.
R
Never piss of your mechanic.
I have done that too.
When you train dogs to fight to kill they will. The same is true for humans, and Blackwater is the result.
We should not be so shocked. When our entertainment industry and media outlets glorify war and reactive xenophobic heroes, when our industrial capacity and income levels are held hostage by death weapons manufacturers, and when our schools militarize our youth with blind patriotism and hypnotic testing that reinforces command structure operations without question than we arrive here now.
These psychotic killers will not disappear and the blood money dealers will continue their profit-quest without any compunction whatsoever.
And there is no politcal leadership that will dare opposition. That would be treasonous.
Bustednuckles @ 47
A couple hundred thousand highly armed soldiers and mercenaries can maintain chaos in a country of what once was upwards of 27 million.. Do the Rovian math on that here at home… Doesn’t the Patriot Act and a few Executive orders federalize (or enable quick federalization) everything from librarians, bank tellers on through local and State police as well as national guard etc..
Managed chaos seems to produce an awful lot of additional wealth for the very rich and leaves much less risk of loss of power.. At least one never loses an election that they control or cancel.
Looky here. This is a PDF of the “Testimony” of the head of Valient systems….Michael Dougherty…look at what his job was…:
http://www.ice.gov/doclib/pi/n.....030404.pdf
Rayne @ 58
I had a manager once who convinced the client we deserved fee on expenses as well as salaries. So all the travel we undertook for the client included 8% fee
During the days that this mal-administration started throwing around the word “Homeland” I pictured this kind of sh*t coming down the pike.
Maddy @ 47
maybe I shouldn’t mention this but Arthur is in a bit of a financial bind and his health isn’t good. He is frequently an uncomfortable read but well worth it. Just as we try to support this site, Arthur could use some help, too. Don’t know him, but admire his passion.
My paranoia is getting the better of me.
Bustednuckles @ 64
at the local building supply store:
salesman: that order will come to $235.
me: do you have a discount for architects?
salesman: $260.
Yes I thought about that too.
Still, 250 million pissed of and heavily armed Americans could throw a serious monkey wrench in even that.
Eureka Springs @ 66
This is part of BushCo’s systematic breakdown of USA.
–outsource most of the jobs
–create draconian laws.
–deputize mercs to maintain power
Soon you will see people in unthinkable numbers signing up for the armed forces. If that is the only to feed your family…
Bustednuckles @ 47
I agree. I don’t lose one wink of sleep worrying about some sort of “Blackwater takeover” here in the USA. It just won’t happen.
Blackwater in Iraq DOES need to be brought under control. They’ve run amuck over there.
Ghostman
I have to wonder what, if anything, will happen with Blackwater of the Dems capture the WH in ‘08.
LS @ 67
that is interesting … pieces fitting together …
LS @ 66
Holey Moley!
OT-Senator Byrd up on SCHIP on CSPAN2.
http://mxgm.org/web/jena-6/national-student-walk-o
ut-support-the-jena-6.html
National Student Call to Action!
Monday, October 1st, 2007
at 12 Noon, (Central Time)
yeah, but half of them-maybe more-will be on their side.
Bustednuckles @ 73
and yuo think this would actually get 250M americans pissed off?
if it happens, they’ll pitch as providing security at home, wrapped in the flag. will try to minimize obvious effects, unless you’re one of those troublemakers trying to travel.
voluntary media censorship, all the official shape of gov’t continues, everything behind the scenes.
after all, we had an election and the “winner” is now taking over. nice orderly, constituional handoff …
Really bad when the survivalists start sounding like they are a lot more together and ready than the rest of us, huh?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 75
I still think we need to demand — and push for groups like MoveOn to demand that the next Dem (!) president specifically and explicitly repudiate a list of shrub’s policies.. namely, all of his anti-democracy/pro-authoritarian/anti-constitutional measures. Decertifying Blackwater as a military contractor should, I think, be on that list.
MoveOn should spell out these demands in a natonal ad campaign, and basically corner the presidential candidates into signing on the dotted line, and to commit to force through Congress or whatever it takes to change these policies within, say, 90 days of taking office.
Short of this, this stuff will just go on and on, and Blackwater and Halliburton will just keep on growing.
Look how quickly and easily we’ve been throwing our rights overboard because of TERROR!
elliot@70
you mean you’re JUST NOW getting paranoid? ahh welcome to my world lol tho really not funny……..
Elliott @ 77
For those who would like their memory refreshed about how the ICE under Dougherty protected us,
check out this.
mike @ 48 -
i absolutely reject your call for military violence.
i do this for both pragmatic and moral reasons.
1) the use of violence in today’s environment is likely to end with the most violent among us in charge. that is the opposite of the future we want.
2) the use of violence in today’s environment will, imo, begin a cycle of escalating violence - in the end causing the kind of evil we seek to avoid.
this does not mean we can not act if our democracy is as broken as you think it may be…. have you studied gandhi?
Of minor historical note:
It is quite apparent that the ‘War on Drugs’ was the deliberate template for the entire current assault on reason, tolerance, truth, justice and democracy.
Henceforth beware of all ‘Wars.’
Organized mayhem (WAR) will destroy our world, assuming Mother Nature tolerates us that long.
Elliott @ 71
I’m really scared too and mainly afraid for my kids. I don’t think it would be so hard for them to control the masses if the majority of the masses conformed because they actually believed it was for their protection. We would still just look like a bunch of crazies. Who would listen?
lemma @ 69
Nice to see Mr Silbur getting more respect around here … his point of view sometimes causes noses to wrinkle and people to leave the tea-party.
His point of view, that both parties work together on the “fifty-year campaign for total corporate liberation.” (in the words of the other Naomi) has great explanatory power for how we got where we are today.
an addle-headed dry drunk couldn’t do it all by himself, even with Darth Cheney as co-president.
juslin @ 85
Oh I’ve always been paranoid, it’s just getting harder for me to talk myself out of it.
Agent provocateur? Them’s fightin’ words.
Speaking of which, I always liked the saying “A liberal is a person who won’t take his own side in a fight.” Just about sums it all up to me.
When the fascists are deploying their “legal” extra-governmental forces in the street, there may come a time when only the “criminals” (you and I) are on the side of justice.
They are prepared to deploy force outside of the law. Are we? Or are we just “liberals”?
A real progressive party has never been tried, and I no longer hold any hope that it will be… absent exogenous shocks that shake up the very foundations of corporate/government power in the U.S.
sporkovat @ 61
The target (of the Christian Right) is not the Democrats but democracy itself
http://www.theocracywatch.org/....._rules.htm
For those who can’t link to the Valiant/Dougherty links, this is what Dougherty’s job was as late as 2004:
MICHAEL T. DOUGHERTY
DIRECTOR OF OPERATIONS
U.S. IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT
DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY
BEFORE THE
SENATE CAUCUS ON INTERNATIONAL NARCOTICS CONTROL
MARCH 4, 2004
He and his wife, Lucy C. are buying and creating “companies” connected with Homeland Security and their portfolio is being handled by Huron. One of the heads of Valiant Systems…is now head of T&M (Jack Goldborough)…the company referred to in the post that has security around Wall Street.
RonD @ 78
Byrd is a national treasure
“The American security contractor Blackwater USA has been involved in a far higher rate of shootings while guarding American diplomats in Iraq than other security firms providing similar services to the State Department, according to Bush administration officials and industry officials.”
RonD @ 80
No way.
question… do the dems really want change? cuz i dont think so…with a few exceptions dems are very similar to repugs in action - and i still say repugs are firmly in control!! dems are scared shitless and witless……..
selise @ 88
what selise said …
mike @ 49
what you call the spheroblogs is nothing more nor less than the unstoppable emergence of the informed citizenry,regarded in your constitution as the bulwark against the ambitions of the born-to-rule.
they saw technology as a new weapon against the people.
i think they did not forsee that this technology is a two edged sword.
they are users and wasters.
creativity is the realm of the people,
interconnected creativity inevitably prevails.
they can do some nasty damage.
healing and changing as circumstances demand is the realm of the people.
The End of America arrived yesterday by Amazon magic. I look forward to reading it and hope that you, in the title, are not too prescient!
I don’t think a takeover is required in all places, just chaos of the masses who will be worried more about food and survival and entertained by their hatred of illegals.. not democracy or, you know, health care or workers/human rights.
Throw a fascist wrench in what we have now and we will all be real happy to live on 3 bucks an hour in the aftermath.
Senator Byrd tying expenditures on the war to lack of domestic programs. Katrina proves the Administration can’t handle crisises(?). A long list of domestic programs to be cut, including first-responders and cancer research, FDA inspectors, elderly and disabled housing grants, and infrastructure, including water treatment, road and bridge maintenance, port and airport security, low-income energy assistance…All of these restored to the budget with bi-partisan support…and Bush is standing on veto threat.
Bay State Librul @ 96
West Virginia put this guy in charge? HOOOOOLY SHYT!!!!!
mike @ 92
i’m will to risk personal harm - i’m not willing to cause harm.
how is that not being willing to take a side? you are completely ignoring the the most effective and moral means of effecting social and political change.
Pandora could not put the lid back on the box once opened, how to put the lid on Blackwater et, al,?
Bustednuckles @ 106
I don’t have an answer for that.
mike
dude, all respect, ok?
but my statement was descriptive, not pejorative.
it’s what AP’s do, try it at a Black Bloc meeting and they’ll call you on it, too.
Sidney Blumenthal on the Rather case
http://www.salon.com/opinion/b.....index.html
selise @ 88
I didn’t see myself as “calling for violence” in some decontextualized way. I’m as big a peacenik as the next guy.
On the other hand, my commitment to peace is not absolute. I’m a progressive, not, say, a liberal. There are circumstances… illegal deployment of fascist shock troops being one of them… in which “illegal” violence (in the sense of being declared administratively or legally by an illegitimate government to be illegal) is in fact a moral mandate….
Think of the street protests in “Burma” today… Think of the second world war… think of the North’s campaign against the South in 1860-1865. In history things sometimes get to that point.
In my view progressive politics requires, ultimately, the willingness to back up words and values with force if necessary. Otherwise one has surrendered the high ground of history to low life like the Bushies.
Eureka Springs @ 102
yeah. just shut down mass transportation for 3 days. how much food will there be in the grocery stores? what kind of panic will that cause?
I don’t care how many bullying private Blackwaters there are…they will never be able to successfully oppress this country. Just look at the mess Blackwater is finally in. Shining the light on all of it is our best insurance. Even in the midst of one scandalous, fascist action after another on a daily basis, the good thing is that we are investigating and exposing it. There are so many good and dedicated people out there. It’s a bumpy road, but I believe we will get out of this when the tide finally turns, and I do think it is turning. JMHO.
Mercs oppress the people but fail to win battles our economy is drowning and were loosing in Iraq but still we pay money for these guys. Still we can’t find the cash for healthcare.
If any selise @ 112
ALL HELL WOULD BREAK LOOSE!!!!!!
sporkovat @ 108
no shit. good call.
Kathleen @ 109
Thanks. I skimmed the article this morn and
was hopeful that the legal system might unmask
and show Bush for what he is… a fucking
rich impertinent arshole
(progressive editing is mine …)
that’s a good example. monks marching against the regime. I think this is what selise is talking about and suggesting. As opposed to trying to shoot it out w/ blackwater — which I think is a really really bad idea
selise @ 112
I’m going out to gather up the chestnuts…
Ya know, I’m really starting to see the wisdom of the NRA advocating citizens arming themselves with automatic weapons and military ordinance. I saw this coming. Randi Rhodes on Air America has been SCREAMING about it for years. Yes, coming to a local police force near you, Blackwater. Accountable to no one. Except citizens with massive firepower. Lock and load, honey.
Elliott @ 119
Then again, As fat as some of us are, many probably could survive for months without a real meal…
What course would you recommend to opponents of Hitler’s regime? Do we not laud the violent resistors? How about in Burma? How about in China at Tiananmen square?
Following the logic of Wolfe’s argument… what does a descent toward fascism in America mean, and at what point do we follow the example of those we progressives love to laud when they march in foreign countries?
None of us want to get there… but this is as Wolfe points out actual fascism we are talking about… carrying a cross and a bible of course because this is America…. but fascism none the less.
As we contemplate the steps in its progress, it wouldn’t hurt to contemplate the steps necessary in our own progress as a progressive community. They have an escalation path. Do we?
And yes, if you like, “should we?” But I think the answer to that question is pretty clear.
ShytBouquet @ 115
again, I can’t imagine them doing this. They don’t want all hell to break loose — that screws up the flow of money from us to them.
Instead, just control the choke points and try to keep the rest of us from noticing that anything happened. We’d still be a “democracy”, just one where for 3 prez elections in a row, the tally was cooked …
keep the audience’s attention on the magician’s other hand.
that’s why we have to be very afraid of those islamo-fascists.
Has there ever been a country who achieved long term military succses with Mercs Carthage, Hessian Mercs who fought against George Washington, Italy during the middle ages, etc?
LS @ 113
LS.. Did we just read the same post? *s*
When they shut all of the Blackwaters down completely and investigate fully.. I will relax, just a little.
LS @ 112
i agree that an unwanted occupation can not succeed - if met by organized nonviolence resistence by the majority of the population (unless genocidal violence is used by the occupiers)… but only if we’re prepared for it…. i seriously suggest people study nonviolent principles and get some training. it may sound stupid, but role playing really helps.
it’s not so much
if you want peace prepare for war
as
if you want peace and freedom
be prepared to defend them.
3 days? angry,hungry crowds;scattered looting.
5 days? widespread food riots and looting, severe police response.
7 days? mass exodus from cities into suburbs, spread of food shortages, riots, and suppression actions.
9 days? Probable martial law.
Crystal ball clouds up after that. The inability of cities to feed themselves has always been the greatest vulnerability of the industrial nation-state.
lee5 @ 118
But in Burma, there are now elements of the military that may be mutinying…that would never happen with Blackwater, they would be the most diehard defenders of the regime, and as ex-SEALS they would be deadly and psychotic.
Why should we be talking about violence when we haven’t even tried large-scale peaceful protest? It seems to me that it’s a big jump from chronic inaction to insurrection. If a few million Americans went on strike and took the streets in totally peaceful dissent, my bet is that these thugs would buckle in a matter of days, at most. They can only get away with their thuggery if they can confident in our complacency.
mike @ 122
Hey just read the scorn expressed for code pink on lefty sites (comments) like FDL when all they do is shout in the halls of congress “No more Killing!”
lee5 @ 123
RonD @ 128
Isn’t that the script from 28 Days…?
I remember at demos in Minnesota against the 1st Gulf War there was a security contingent ready in case neo-nazi or right wing disruption got violent, but they were very very, very discreet about it, get it?
LS @ 112
It will be a very tough and long fight. The same forces that have brought Blackwater into being and into play are also the same forces that have promoted Christian belief at the Pentagon, the Air Force Academy and in the other branches. This is Dominionism and it’s greatest propogator is the Assemblies of God. The Assemblies of God are heavily intertwined with Amway and groups such as Focus on the Family. “Many AmWay downlines–in particular the Dexter Yager downline–are known to promote specific types of dominion theology popular in neopentecostal circles, in particular within the Assemblies of God. This should probably not be shocking; quite a lot of Diamonds in AmWay are known to be members of the Assemblies of God and/or the Full Gospel Businessmen’s Fellowship International. Notable Assemblies Diamond-level AmWay members include John Ashcroft and Doug Wead, both of whom have had very close links with George W. Bush; Wead in particular largely coached Bush in regards to “learning to speak dominionist-ese” and largely introduced Bush to dominionist leaders. (Of particular note, Ashcroft is very influential in Assemblies of God circles; his father is founder of Chi Alpha, an Assemblies “fraternity front” targeting college-age students.”http://www.talk2action.org/story/2007/8/23/142836/277
These folks have been working hand in hand with other Conservative Christian Groups (Ralph Reed, anyone?) for 30 years. They know how to work quietly and then strike at an opportune moment, which is what happened with George Bush in 2000. That is another reason why next year’s elections are so important — to get rid of the rest of these snakes out of Congress. Blackwater is just one part of the picture -
Eureka Springs @ 124
I’m not at all relaxed about it, quite the contrary, I’m just saying that episodes like the killing in Iraq have occurred (since the time they received the contract)and received publicity; also, California is bucking their “base”. I’ve been screaming about Blackwater for a long, long time.
The full Blackwater senate hearing can be watched. If you have not watched it is really worth the time.
http://democrats.senate.gov/dpc/index22.cfm
lee5 @ 117
exactly, thank you.
but using nonviolent means is no guarantee of sucess - any more than the use of violence is.
it is necessary to study, to think and plan strategically as well as tactically, and most of all to train and to organize…
seriously. read gandhi. read gene sharp.
sporkovat @ 133
actually, no I don’t
I’ve had fleeting thoughts of buying a horse and cart. Doesn’t seem like such a bad idea anymore.
Fascist rule has a limited life. It is terribly destructive during its reign but the people do rise up. It just may be our turn to experience it firsthand. I look to history and ultimately, the people win the good fight.
The sad part is that humanity keeps doing this over and over and never seems to recognize it when it comes around again. Could this be because the human race has accepted a hierarchy system? So, having authority tell us what to think and do is comfortably familiar?
Democracy and self-governing is difficult. It is active force and each of us must be responsible for making it work. No Big Daddy to hold our hand or Big Mama to take care of us. The work place has conditioned Americans to obey authority or starve to death. Capitalism requires hierarchy rule - elite rule.
Blackwater is here because the time is ripe. We can either obey or rise up.
Blub @ 129
good point - there is also no point talking down this road unless at the very least a Progressive 3rd party is tried - which is more likely than giving a brain, spine, and balls transplant to a resistant (D) party without anaesthesia.
Bay State Librul @ 117
The Rather case will show how the MSM not only goes along but fires someone who is trying to “shine the light”
Thank you Dan Rather
I read the summary of Ms. Wolf’s book and her comments at amazon yesterday and something in me finally clicked. My heart is racing, too.
Describing this transformation as an established series of steps did it for me. Any day of the week you can the items that make the progression clearer. Just yesterday it was another Enabling Act by Congress, and the establishment of a 1000-person detention facility for illegal immigrants in Virginia, and the Verizon censorship.
Same deal here, apparently.
Already in New Orleans.
Ready to, in New York City.
Ready to, in the rest of America.
When the time is right.
citizens of Potrero CA, the threatened site of a Blackwater base, have moved to fire virtually their entire governing council, using California’s recall law, in order to block the project, after the good ole’ boys on the panel moved to support the Blackwater proposal
http://www.signonsandiego.com/.....ortre.html
Nothing like the threat of Blackwater on your doorstep to motivate an end to complacency.
selise @ 125
Good idea. I’ve also been wondering if there is some language in new legislation, such as the hate crime bill that would cover violent actions against US citizens by other citizens.
How I’d take over:
1. seize control of the internet by shutting down blogs such as FDL
2. “disappear” potential troublemakers
3. reassure the public that although there is a threat to the country, all is under control, and people should go about their own business and trust in their government
4. cancel elections in order to maintain continuity
5. “disappear” potential troublemakers
An armed but unorganized populace is no match for some thugs in positions of power and some highly organized brownshirts.
mike @ 122
Thank you. Mike. Fascism isn’t on the rise; it is out front and center in our faces.
Bunning was a great pitcher but he is a piss poor Senator… arguing that the Tobacco tax
is not the way to fund the SCHIP programs.
Yank him, send him to the minors…
Thanks for offering the book out of the gate in paper back. Have you looked into presenting your material on DVD Naomi? Apparently Newt Gringrich has concluded that DVDs are cheap enough to use for mass mailings.
I think if you came out with a thirty minute lecture on DVD some of us could get some of those who won’t read a book on politics to watch.
Elliott @ 137
the point is, agent provocatuers bring up the subject of violence to discredit a peaceful movement, and waste energy debating the issue.
i.e, are highly indiscreet.
And as I read here, I was listening to a Senate hearing on the merger of Google and doubleclick. And a lot of talk about how much information is collected on us.
They’ve
makingmade a listBay State Librul @ 148
Well, there are still a few tobacco farmers left in Kentucky so he probably thinks he’s helping his constituents.
mike @ 121
dude! read some history!
denmark? bulgaria?
Naomi,
Thank you for coming to FDL today– Welcome to the Lake! I’m at work, so this is a driveby, but I wanted not only to welcome you, but to let you know that last night, before your appearance here, I sent to my extended family the beginning of a previous posting of your “10 steps that would-be tyrants use to close down a democracy and produce a ‘fascist shift.’ ” I haven’t heard back from any of them yet, but your work serves as a wake-up call.
Looking at the present array of presidential candidates, who do you think would be most likely to roll our country back from the slide towards Fascism? I’m thinking of Chris Dodd in this regard, because of his defense of the Constitution and Habeas Corpus, and I’m worried about Hillary because of the Corporatist bias of her DLC. What’s your take on the candidates?
Aloha,
Bob in HI
Blub @ 145
that’s heartening
i can’t get visions of martial law being declared out of my head……sighhhhhhhhh
LS, I love ya..and find great comfort in your words every day. I just didn’t think it was a good place to find much comfort in congressional investigations at this point in time.
sporkovat @ 151
O, I see, thanks!
Bunning is blowing smoke?
I’ll bet you anything that those who are plotting and spying on us, are being spied on themselves by dedicated people, say in the FBI or something. Just my fantasy, I wouldn’t actually bet money….but…I dunno. I hope so.
Elliott @ 156
if true, cool!!!
Bay State Librul @ 159
After his last election campaign, some folks thought maybe a bit further into dementia than had been admitted.
Disturbing…Blackwater
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....mp;search=
these private security firms are multiplying…no? america is loaded when it comes to paying for that - but SCHIP uhhh not so much
Bunning is saying that it is not fiscally responsible to pay the extra dough for the kids.
Has he looked at the irresponsible funding
of this fucking war…
The guy is fucking moron
Eureka Springs @ 157
To tell you the truth, I get a lot of hope from reading what Christy has to say!!! She always points out that there are so many dedicated people that will fight for the rule of law who are seeing what is going on too…first hand.
Elliott @ 151
i didn’t listen to the hearing (although i recorded it). how was it? do you recommend it? thx!
I think we are a fair way from the Blackwater scenario that Ms Klein sets out, though like many others on this site, the possibility has coursed through my mind in bad moments. Here’s a few signs of bad things to come: Blackwater replaces the Secret Service. At that point we have a true Praetorian Guard. I think this is the most likely move towards actual dictatorship, since the guards might get access to the nuclear codes. A second sign is a budget line, which gives them permanent funding. This could also happen in a foreseeable future. For them to impose rule, however, requires logistics capacity. They don’t have that right now. But if they get it, head for the exits.
One of my academic fields is late Roman and early medieval economic and social history. I know a lot about how the German mercenaries took over the Roman state. They were’t the barbarians they are usually made out to be, but military professionals who simply decided to cut out the middleman.
Thought you would all like to know.
Knut Wicksell @ 168
Very comforting, Knut, since we have people in power who refuse to learn the lessons of history.
Blackwater
http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=AiveTRAciUQ
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KXUW5X1MGdI
LS @ 161
There are some bad, nasty remote islands in the Indonesian Archipelago. We may find ourselves meeting on one after being rounded up and dumped by Blackwater.
QuakerGirl @ 148
I agree that the current governmental form of the United States can be described as “corporate fascist.”
I do think we are on a path, and that we are have not reached the most dire imaginable condition or form of corporate fascism.
It could get a lot worse.
I alluded to a “path.” However history does not have a single inevitable path. The danger of preparing to meet violence with violence is that you can encourage the very thing you seek to avoid. We should of course elect Democrats and progressives, who should pass laws reigning in (or freeing up) the communications media and disbanding the independent private militias and the corporations. But it is not difficult to imagine a series of events (war, California splits the electoral vote, an oil shock, housing market collapse, voter disenfranchisement in Florida and Ohio) that place Giuliani or Romney in office, with emergency powers in place, and the march toward full blown American fascism just continues.
And then we all have to ask ourselves, when our neighbors are disappeared under color of law, when our privacy is violated under color of law, etc. etc…. how far are we willing to let this go? And,is our only path of resistance the path of Gandhi?
lemma @ 70
Thanks Lemma, I have helped a little in the past, You are right a difficult read but worth the patience. Will send something when I can.
Knut Wicksell @ 167
Another obvious sign would be an attempt to completely disarm the citizenry. It would happen wrapped in the cloak of protecting against crime, but it would be the most dangerous move. If that ever happened, we would be lost.
On physical threats to Congress by the regime (link via TPM):
http://www.thecarpetbaggerrepo.....13028.html
See comments thread for Leahy’s comments on that mail he got back in 2001.
Toby Wollin @ 169
Given that the Secret Service has well over a hundred years experience in protecting the President and dignitaries AND the lack of competence shown by Blackwater in their protection chores, I see it as highly unlikely that they could openly replace the Secret Service.
Obviously, YMMV
Eureka Springs @ 130
not by me. i love code pink!
selise @ 169
not the part where Microsoft whines about being cut out of a market! If you have the time or are washing the dishes. But I think reading a synopsis would be enough, but that’s just me. :)
sporkovat @ 61
So what if netroots spent the next 10 years demanding accountability of RNC and prosecuting them under RICO, while simultaneously fielding Progressive party candidates for every gov’t office, however small? It appears that we’re stuck with a 2-party system, but who says it has to be “republicans” and “democrats”? I’m all for helping the Gangrenous Old Party over the cliff Mr Bush is marching them toward, and making the Jackass party the “new right”. A credible Progressive movement could run on One America and Restore The Constitution. I’d sure vote for ‘em!
acronym help…ymmv?
Don’t forget also…the Military does not like Blackwater or other rogue contractors. They know what’s going on.
Mike,
Seems to me the logic of your argument dictates formation of an American Viet Cong.
RonD @ 180
YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary
LS @ 182
yes, this is one of the points of hope (!)
LS @ 175
An attempt to disarm the citizenry would be met with a whole lotta firepower from the citizenry.
How long can you safely keep ammunition?
Elliott @ 187
Ellie you’re scarin’ me LOL!
Naomi, I am scared.
kdh22 @ 188
Actually I do want to know.
Elliott @ 186
mike @ 172
my bold.
dude! everything you write shows you have no knowledge of nonviolence! nonviolence is the exact opposite of “letting it go”. you are arguing for violent action as though there are no other choices besides capitulation.
that’s too much like cheney-talk for me.
Bustednuckles @ 191
Oh thanks! :)
Knut Wicksell @ 168
Condottieri
Jonathan @ 183
The logic of my argument dictates proportionality… not escalating faster then the enemy, but neither failing to escalate in the face of a direct threat.
That is obvious in the international arena, but troubles many people in the domestic arena because we like to imagine that only the international arena and the “foreign” arena is a domain of violence, while the domestic arena is forever preserved as a domain of law and peace. Even a cursory reading of history, including American history, demonstrates that this is not so.
However, I don’t dismiss the idea that a proportional response may not be a mirrored response. Meeting threats of violence with massed popular resistance is certainly a valid strategy option…. The only question to ask is “would it work?” And would it work against this enemy, and these American fascists?
Elliott @ 187
check your local municipal ordnance.
AP - A U.S. soldier cried Thursday as he told a court-martial that his staff sergeant ordered him to shoot an unarmed Iraqi. He said the sergeant then laughed and told the trooper to finish the job as the dying man convulsed on the ground.
I love Kennedy. He just gave a beautiful
speech about the hypocrisy of the Repugs..
Listen to Teddy
This is like the boogy man thread. I’m scared.
punaise @ 197
ammo do that
There DOES need to be major investigations, but there wont be. The Democrats are in on it every bit as much as the Republicans. Wherever there is money to be made, the politicians of BOTH parties are all over it and fully behind it.
On another note, given that 160,000 US troops and an additional and equal number of “private security” contractors are totally unable to control Iraq, a country the size of Maine, there is little danger that Blackwater, or ALL the “security contractors” combined can control the US. There is also the little issue of a lot of armed Americans (NRA and non-NRA, the latter of which includes yours truly…and we’re not talking pop-gun handguns, but military type guns), many of THEM former miltary, I am less worried about Blackwater’s thugs viability as Brownshirts than some. That’s not to say that they couldn’t cause mischief…but then, so can I and those like me.
On the whole, the country needs to demobilize its military big-time. This militarism is way too gonzo. De-militarizing includes not only reducing the size of the military itself, but also pushing to de-militarize police forces and operations all over the country AND very VERY strong oversight and regulation of “security contractors”.
HAH! I almost had myself there for a minute. NONE of that will come to pass. As I said at the start, the Republicans AND Democrats are all into this shit and there’s no way they will unhitch their wagons from the war-money train.
Would that it were true… I suspect that a lot of them would nod, agree to help fight the turrists, and hand ‘em over. As Goering, who knew a little about fascism, said, MOL:
“…it is a simple matter to bring the people to the will of the leaders…all you do is tell them they are under attack, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and endangering the country…It works the same in any country…”
Never underestimate the power of propaganda combined with ignorance.
john in sacramento @ 195
Can it be said that it’s just a matter of time??
This article is on the Blackwaterusa website:
http://www.weeklystandard.com/.....2fxarf.asp
“But we’re only scratching the surface. Though the company is less than ten years old, it’s already become the alpha and omega of military outsourcing. The target systems remain a multimillion-dollar business, but now the corporate flagship is just one part of a very large fleet. Indeed, it would be hard to understate Blackwater’s capabilities:
* A burgeoning logistics operation that can deliver 100- or 200-ton self-contained humanitarian relief response packages faster than the Red Cross.
* A Florida aviation division with 26 different platforms, from helicopter gunships to a massive Boeing 767. The company even has a Zeppelin.”
mike @ 195
and you never bother to ask “would violence work”? why hold nonviolence to a different standard?
and there are hundreds of questions besides “would it work?” it’s just bullshit to say that’s the only question.
life is just too short
RonD @ 203
I suspect that like Iraq, sectarian insurgencies would erupt here.
Is this the perfect storm? We’re being destroyed by a feckless Preznit, a fascist VP, and a phony opposition Party.
Badwater @ 209
If we had no ability to communicate amongst ourselves…perhaps…but they will ultimately fail, because the cat’s already out of the bag…many, many, people are suspicious, and know what’s going on.
LS @ 204
I believe it was in the NYTimes story this morning on Blackwater that stated they only have approx 1K total direct employees (maybe even less than that). Most of their “staff” are also contracted out so they need to find people to hire on contract basis to do their dirty work for them
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solidarity
dakine01 @ 211
Yes. I think that came out in a hearing, that there are just layers and layers of subcontractors…but, because it is “national security”, the subcontracting practices are impossible to track.
just look what the crypto-christians have wrought in our name….. this is a scary post goddamn!!
mike @ 173
No. I don’t do the Gandhi thing. I’m military, I do military things.
Ya’ll are more than welcome to go the Gandhi route, but I prefer the original Minuteman route (not the new version of “Minutemen”, the ORIGINAL version). It worked once, it can work again.
But we ain’t there yet.
punaise @ 197
Just don’t bite the bullet to hard.
brendan @ 211
exactly! thank you brendan!
indeed the story of solidarity is covered in one of my earlier links (see “read some history”).
LS @ 181
very true.. didn’t many Brownshirts meet a sticky end at the hands of the SS?
To back up our resident historian (Knut), 21,000 is nowhere near enough. E Germany (who were quite successful at the suppress the populace style of governing) had about 2% of the population directly on STASI’s payroll. Those were just the informers.
While Blackwater is a horrid development, it really takes a huge amount of people and resources to run an effective dictatorship. Particularly in a country with a 2nd Amendment.
It seems to me that the concept of full-spectrum resistance calls for all of it: a Media branch, which is the intellectual and information-dissemination branch, to educate the public and plan for the future; a public-services division, to maintain services, as any resistance must have the support of the people; a logistics and supply command; a public-advocacy action apparatus, specializing in demonstrations and non-violent civil-disobedience; and planning for physical resistance, in case all else fails.
Haven’t spent a lot of time thinking it through, though.
LS @ 210
The Dems in Congress are the ones in position to do something. We sit and watch, day after day, as they accomplish nothing. All we know is that impeachment is not an option. Apparently the dems in power are not among those who are suspicious.
those budgets are buried deep in nat’l security…never questioned cuz “we” dont wanna know whats being done in our name…. not us here in blogosphere tho we do want answers…
RonD @ 203
And I’ll give you the classic gun-owner’s reply to that one:
“You can have my guns when you pry them out of my cold, dead hands.”
In about a year from now we will have a new president. And at this point I’m not too crazy about the two front runners (on foreign policy issues) of my party. And just imagine another Republican in the WH.
selise @ 206
I should have said the most important question is “would it work” and yes, that holds true for both violence and nonviolence. I think I’ve been pretty consistent about that. As I clarified back at 111
Roosevelt’s war against Hitler (to simplify unforgivably) was a progressive war and a just one…. the fact that we immediately swallowed all those fascist scientists and spies and ways of thinking into our own OSS/CIA being an ugly subsequent reality that we needn’t go into here. While American Fascism really dates back to the 1910s and Henry Ford, and Hitler learned from our fascists, our victory over the German fascists was the real beginning of American corporate fascism.
The Union’s campaign against the Confederacy was, although only at the end and with many qualifications, ultimately an historically progressive war. It ended the formal institution of slavery. Unfortunately the South has now retaken the government in Washington. The loser won here too.
You could argue that these are two examples of progressive wars that succeeded…or two examples of losers who subverted their conquerers from within. Regardless, I endorse those acts of violence (it pains me to say those words) in the name of progressive values. Some people find that the mandate of nonviolence and nonviolent resistance is absolute. I find that it is a tool that has potential uses… but I do not believe that it alone can be used to establish a just political order.
To each his or her own. “Fighting progressive” is not a contradiction in terms to me.
sporkovat @ 218
The Night of Long Knives
RonD @ 219
exactly! will you be on the strategic planning branch? gandhi was very clear that what he called the “constructive program” was as important as the “obstructive program”.
but i really do think we’re nowhere near that - and hopefully never will be. but it would be, imo, foolish to think it can’t happen. all i’m asking is folks consider reading some of the nonviolence literature (history, principles, strategy) before deciding to go the violence route.
Swopa is upstairs.
New Thread
Ha! A reverse zed!
It’s one thing to oppose a takeover — when opposition is scattered and unorganized, and the population doesn’t really understand the enemy and its objectives.
Another to oppose an established regime — when opposition has had time to learn about the regime and how best to oppose it.
IMO, the U.S. in in the former situation.
Bustednuckles @ 230
hehehehe. Busted, you crack me up! Thanks!
Brisingamen @ 223
And The Bug’s classic response from MIB: “This offer is acceptable.”
selise @ 207
uh - just to be clear:
At a time when bloggers (SHAC 7) are in Federal prison simply for the content on their web site, calls for armed resistance on the Lake appear to put our gracious hosts at risk..
as well as handing Fatherland Security an excuse to shut down the Lake.
As this site is obviously drawing (metaphorical) blood from the War Party, calls here for armed resistance appear to serve the War Party.
I am not suggesting that was initial commenter’s intention - but I do wish to apprise all of us of these (presumably unintended) risks.
And don’t forget that other little warning sign — the dictator-to-be filling key government positions with people absolutely loyal to him, and him alone. As we’ve seen all too often lately, this cult of personality exists to prevent or obstruct any challenge to Beloved Leader’s benevolent rule.
mike @ 225
what i’m trying to say is that you apparently have no idea what nonviolence is (in theory and practice). before you go advocating violence, imo, you have a responsibility to study and consider other options - including nonviolence. and you can’t do that if you don’t know what it is.
GordonM @ 233
OMG! I had forgotten that. :)
Mike, your comment at 225 is very perceptive and profound.
kirk murphy @ 234 -
thank you kirk.
selise @ 236
Selise
I admire your persistence and effort, but a military mindset such as Mike’s cannot be altered except thru extreme measures. Extreme being the operative word.
Kirk, you are of course absolutely correct, sadly…I do not support violence in any way, shape, or form.
selise @ 239
selise, you are most welcome.
some days I too fear our non-violent tools may be less powerful than our needs demand.
yet - irrespective of the putative role and merits of “non-non-violent” strategies - discussing them here merely hands MSM a tool to to discredit us and Fatherland Security a weapon with which to destroy the Lake.
See y’all upstairs…why look! A shiny, beautiful, ZED!
Sorry I haven’t had a chance to read the whole thread (tryin’ to do lawyer stuff today)
But one thing really jumps out at me about the $15 billion on contracts the Pentagon let for Anti narcotics work::::
Uh guys? That’s DOJ’s job. You know US Attorney’s, FBI, DEA, ATF–that’s their gig.
And Could somebody tell me under what provision of Title 18 the Freakin Military is empowered to do law enforcement?
Did I miss a US Code update? Do I need to take more CLE classes than I already do?
What fuckery is this? (Hi TREX )
kirk murphy @ 242 -
i’m not seeing this as a thoughtful discussion of the pros and cons of various methods of resistance (even though, as you point out, that would not be acceptable here if violence in incuded).
i’m seeing this as a thoughtless attempt to advocate in favor of violence.
not liking it one bit.
looseheadprop @ 244
That sure looks like Iran Contra all over again, doesn’t it?
Smells like it to me…
cdave@235
now you’ve said it- it’s all those folk bushco has installed in key spots that will echo for years to come….
looseheadprop @ 244
yeah, very disturbing… but if blackwater is a private firm - not military. that’s the evil genius of it…. it’s set up to avoid what little accountability we have of our military organizations.
Hi Rayne — good to see you here!
and now off to teach the med students….
This is why they want to privatize every gov. agency. It’s the way to destroy the People’s gov. If it hasn’t been done already.
kdh22 @ 240
I’m sorry to be so irredeemable and incorrigible. I’m sure there is more I could learn about nonviolent tactics.
I think, based on what I know of them, that they can be powerful and successful.
I have, although you might find it hard to believe, even contemplated the idea of going hard core nonviolent. I was unable to believe in that path, and I have come to believe that there are enemies against whom they will not succeed.
I also used to be a pure vegetarian, but am no longer. We grow, we gain new understandings, we change.
—-
Regarding, the person above who worries that I’m abusing the site by talking openly about the historical role of violence in opposing fascism…. please. I have considerably more respect for FDL and its owners than to imagine they would be bothered by this kind of free speech. They are free to email me if they have a problem with the ideas I’ve discussed here.
mike and Selise
I think this discussion has been informative without being rude or disrespectful. You both have shown that different points of view can be expressed in an adult manner.
Thanks for the opportunity to learn more from both of you.
You’re not paranoid, Elliot, they are out to get you.
Congress could strike a blow against Blackwater and all paramilitary organizations like it, and help end the Iraq War, by passing legislation that bans federal government funding for armed private contractors whether they are operating in the United States or abroad.
The US occupation of Iraq could not continue if contractors like Blackwater had to leave. Congress could pitch it as a bill to redirect that money to the troops, and dare Bush to choose contractors over US soldiers by vetoing it.
Without Iraq making money for them, Blackwater and similar companies would be hard-pressed to do anything domestically, either. So it might be enough to cut them off in Iraq. And unlike denying general war funding, it’s a lot harder to spin this as bad for the troops.
I guess like old Rip Van Winkle I’ve been asleep for 20 years but the last I knew was that the military was not involved in counter-narcotic operations. What gives?
Rayne @ 246
rayne and lhp:
D I N G ! [epu’d but. . .
D I N G, nonetheless. . .]
exactly my thought on the matter.
much more on blackwater here, by
me — feel free, all FDL-ers, to use
any of the graphics and video – i’ve
cleared all of it, for this use. and, now i
bequeath it all to the greater under-
standing of just how badly cheney — over
14 years ago — screwed us all, in re-author-
izing the use of mercenaries. . .
it is so like iran-contra. . . crap.
p e a c e
Matt Connolly @ 255
OK, so it’s not just me then?
WTF?
nolo @ 256
Thank you nolo
Late to the thread, but:
Could THIS be one issue why the Dem’s seem SO unresponsive to progressive issues? Fear?
Nah. The unresponsive Dem’s ARE the War Machine, The Fear Mongers, The Blackwater Supporters.
We have nothing to fear but the reality we KNOW is true and self evident in front of us.
We are LONG past any political solutioins to these problems, and now we are sorely outgunned.
Interesting times will contine to get more and more interesting.
Ms. Wolf and others who decry this oursourcing merc trending which started years and years ago, are spot on.
Thanks FDL for bringing her info to a larger light.
I have been saying that we need to vote dem ticket across the board for a long time. But I have to hand it to the people who have been so strong for the right to bear arms and the NRA. With maniacs like Blackwater who will kill anyone for money including our own citizens, it is nice to know that there are 90 guns for every 100 people (the highest in the world)in this country. I can’t believe that I said that with a positive bent.
In the country the red necks drive around with deer rifles in the truck racks and in the big cities there are lots of automatic weapons.
I hope that Blackwater likes to be targets if they decide to get frisky in the US.
Oh by the way, I think we should start talking to the families of these people and maybe they can help us persuade them to get regular jobs if the congress won’t cut off their paychecks. We will be paying them high wages to shoot Americans. Where did the good old US of A go?
looseheadprop @ 257
Plan Columbia
mike @ 48
Hoss. Great post.
And it’s also how we GOT here, way back when. Military power, to establish USA.
“. . . . every 200 years.”
As a Founding Father once said . . . . *G*
juslin @ 99
No they are not!
They are smug and happy and confident.
They ARE the War Machine.
Need to wrap around that folks, that the Dem’s ARE as bad for us as the Pub’s.
It’s the same elitist 1% driving the show to totalitarianism.
If folks can’t make that leap at this point . . . then the battle for a more pregressive and open society is over. LONG over.
Bit NOLA says:
September 27th, 2007 at 12:19 pm
So where do the major Dem candidates stand on Blackwater?
Why isn’t anyone asking them? I mean outside the MSM, who could give a fuck.
Why don’t the blogs get their heads together and have someone pose the question the next time the candidates throw them a bone?
This shit has got to be outlawed.
http://www.america-weeps.blogspot.com
I thought it was already outlawed under the original Constitution. What do they have to gain by trashing our Constitution? It doesn’t make sense. Profits don’t last forever, and they have to live on the earth that they are trashing.
lee5 @ 100
As history will indicate, the time for non violent action in the streets, as in the 60’s/70’s is LONG past. We have WAY passed the point of effective non violent resistance.
And violent resistance will only kill more, sooner . . .
The Russians, and The Chinese are our only hope for surviving in any form of a republic.
We better hope they can counter the facist coup in progress in the USA or it’s all over for our democracy, and the planet.
mike @ 122
(stands on chair applauding with deliberative passion and conviction)
selise @ 236
I don’t support violent means to justice, but I do understand how someone might get there. If you have tried to stop serious and brutal injustice via direct negotiations, the courts, protest etc etc and nothing works and the oppression continues…I could see why someone might choose violent means. The I/P issue is an example
sporkovat @ 141
There have been calls for an October General Strike. The moment I first heard of this, chills ran over me.
I have NO doubt that, if this strike DOES come to fruition, it will be met with great violence.
There are NO indices I can see, that will portend a peaceful end to all the insanity being waged upon us, and by USA, upon the Middle East.
Short of a military coup to depose the insane one’s of BOTH party’s here in the USA, only Russia and China can put an end to this insanity, and I fear violence on their part upon USA will be inevitable . . . be it overseas at USA interests, or here at home.
Blub @ 145
Great update, had NOT heard much on this issue lately . . . does Christine Craft know this?
1240AM, Sacramento, CA
Jonathan @ 147
And History substantiates all the above. Good call, hoss. And why we MUST consider the LCD and the worst that could happen.
After all, it IS happening, right in front of our noses, eyes and ears. It IS happening. It is NOT a matter of ebb and flow . . . it IS a coup and it’s LONG been in motion . . . which is why it has a GREAT chance of succeeding, with or without violence on the part of the ruling elite.
Elliott @ 152
We’ve all known this, for years now. And if we didn’t, we were naive.
Every post on the internet can be screened, found, and listed.
And they have. Screened, found, and listed.
That’s life in our interesting times.
Glad to see folks emerging and shifting to the reality at hand, instead of the reality to be predicted . . . the future has been here now, long ago. ;-)
mike @ 173
It’s oft quoted, but, it fits.
” . . then they came for my neighbor . . “
kdh22 @ 204
While quite informative from a background perspective, Sac John’s link is from April, 2007.
Much has taken place SINCE then, including the San Diego residents of the county concerned rebelling all to hayall!!!
A small glimmer of hope, but, at this point, I’ll take ANYTHING of hope, given how dark I see the evidence mounting to destry a progressive society, much less our formerly established rebublic and its Constitution.
selise @ 206
Selise, yer nonviolent, a disciple of Ghandi.
Fine.
Now let it go and let the others have their say, you’ve about pounded it into the tar pits of La Brea at this point . . .
You are at this point, squelching a dialogue.
Let it roll, let it happen. NONE of us have a clue what’s gonna take place . . . and to that end, we need every phreakin point of view availed to us.
Every one.
Thanks for YOUR point of view. I get it.
Not advocating violence (yet) but…the Revolutionary War was NOT a Gandhi-esque exercise. Gandhi-esque tactics would NOT have worked with Hitler or Mussolini. Rather, that sort of thing plays directly into their hands.
There is a time and place for everything, including Gandhi-like action…and more direct and brutal action.
Just saying. Reality is what it is and history is what it is. No magic, no rainbows and candy.
larue @ 265
history tells a very different story:
the overthrow of ferdinand marcos - 1986
elections in poland - 1989
democratic elections in south africa - 1994
the overthrow of slobodan milošević - 2000
end of the military dictatorship in argentina - 1983
elections in south korea - 1987
i’m sure there are many more examples, these are just off the top of my head… and i’m no historian.
mike @ 251
mike, if you have so much concern for FDL’s creators, perhaps you’d care to speak with them.
When Jane and I - over email - discussed this topic, I came away from the exchange with exactly the perspective I’ve set forth above.
I don’t pretend to speak for Jane - I speak only for myself.
Your comments about violence do not merely discuss history - your comments also discuss ande apparently advocate use of violence as a tool for political change in America in the future.
I hope you are less careless and more honest with weapons than you have shown yourself to be about your own words.
And mike - whose interests are most served by introducing violent political change as a topic for the Lake?
And mike - if you have had military training - who are you serving today by repeatedly pushing the topic here?
Law enforcement, the Pentagon, or Homeland Security, perchance?
Who do you serve, mike with no last name?
kirk murphy @ 234
Live in fear, die in captivity, with fear.
Kirk, please . . . . until the gulag clamps down, can we please adopt an open forum dialogue presence of mind?
If FDL wishes to make the kinds of statements you just made, that’s one thing.
For you to speak on their behalf to drive a point, is just inappropriate . . . even it the point IS in their behalf . . . and you are a highly respected commenter in here, as is Selise.
But sometimes, please, let the dialogue roll and let FDL decide what’s acceptable and not.
We have enuff facist censorship in our lives as it is . . . hoss.
looseheadprop @ 257
Military NOT involved in counter narc ops?
By GAWD man, what do you think Iran/Contra and many OTHER non narcotic ops were all about? DRUGS FOR WEOPONS FOR CASH and all the profiteering and laundering that goes with it.
Guatamala.
El Salvador.
Panama.
Columbia.
Most all of Central and South America.
Drugs. Guns. Cash.
All without license, tracking, or accountability.
For DECADES!!!
Our military (paramilitary black ops) were part and parcel to it ALL, in support of Spooks, and State Deptartment.
Does Vietnam ring a bell? Same o same o.
Laos.
Ad infiniteum . . . ;-)
The counter narc ops are a means to ENABLE the transport of narcs!! FOR PROFIT!
Enabled and authorized by the War Machine that’s been running this country for decades.
Freeway Ricky.
Sigh . . . .
john in sacramento @ 261
*G*
Praedor Atrebates @ 274
sorry. you’re just wrong about this.
1) american revolutionary war started as a nonviolent resistance, and given that canada, india and australia were able to achieve their independance nonviolently, is there any reason to think we couldn’t have also?
2) there are examples of nonviolence working with the nazis - the danish resistance, the teachers in norway, the protest in berlin to save the jewish husbands of non-jewish wives. all of these were spontanious actions - what might have been possible if there had been organized resistance? i don’t know, but there’s no reason to think there couldn’t have been many more successful actions.
i’d love to have a discussion about makes nonviolence effective or not effective. but it’s got to be grounded in reality…. and not the myths of a violent society.
and i don’t even claim to be a pacifist!
larue @ 277
i think kirk is right, we’ve been
askedtold on many occassions not to advocate the use of violence here. why not try to respect that?larue - how plain do I have to make it?
Advocacy of political violence has real practical consequences.
Like Federal prison time.
The SHAC 7 - who basically posted addresses - are in Federal prison for speech on their web site.
Before you dismiss the consequences of advocating political violence on a website, you’d do well to comprehend the SHAC 7 convictions.
And larue, perhaps you missed my comment 278:
Finally - though I respect you as a person and your comments here, if you choose to misconstrue my confronting people who come here and advocate political violence to be “fascist censorship”, get stuffed.
I like you as a commenter - and I like the person I discern behind the comments - but wrapping the slur in “hoss” doesn’t conceal the lie.
Since it didn’t succeed, let’s do better.
You and I can disagree with one another without implying that either one of us is a fascist - so let’s live up to that rather low standard in the future.
selise @ 281
If you speak of TODAY in the USA, then my response is NO.
Our threat is MUCH bigger than any those faced, in their times.
And if you speak of our Revolutionary War, then you KNOW FULL WELL how that non violence tactic worked out.
I’m not here to put down peace where possible, but I AM here to say, at some point, peace is NOT possible, and you can either live or die with the oppression comfort level of yer choice.
The Jews learnt this and paid the biggest, most HORRIFIC price for pacificity, of the entire world’s history (IMHO).
And this country was as guilty as any others for enabling that genocide. And then not providing them a home . . . as the WHOLE WORLD rejected them, and forced them into Palistine.
I won’t be responsible for genocide anymore, I’d rather die fighting for my beliefs, than march for an unachievable peace with The War Machine.
Ya know?
As such, I don’t think passive resistance stands a chance in these climes.
Which is why I pray and count on China and Russia to save our souls, worthless as this admin and this War Machine are in terms of souls.
Bless all of yas. N good luck, BTW. *G*
kirk murphy @ 283
Sigh, this is headed to where Al The Spook and others went epic nutz . .
Kirk, I disagree with you.
And I will continue to reserve the right to call facism for what it is. How EVER it rears its ugly head.
When FDL says to me, SHUT UP, I’ll go elsewhere. But I’ll not go for your disagreement with MY disagreements.
But thanks for some of the props you tossed.
I preciate, that, hoss. *G*
And I HAVE appreciated comments by both you and Selise, on other topics . . . and I have learned from them . . .
But for cryin out loud, people, let the people rant. It’s supposed to be a DEMOCRACY, or a REPUBLIC, with or without facist suppression upon the FDL blog.
FDL puts it out there, they KNOW the potential for repurcussions, they KNOW every word is watched, recorded, listed.
They Know FULL well, we are all marked.
I don’t see FDL caving in, and I surely don’t intend to cave in, to pressure from ANYWHERE.
Let the dialogue continue, harsh, with invective, explicatives, and thoughts unbridled on all counts.
They take that, we might as well be sheep fodder.
Hoss.
*G*
larue @ 285
here’s some links for you:
comments suggesting violence, or threats of violence, will be pulled.
no threats of violence, even in jest. Period.
This ought to go without saying, but I am going to say it anyway: no threats of violence, no discussions of hangings or other violents acts, no comments relating to anything you might like to see or do or what-have-you to Dick Cheney or any other member of the Administration. Period. You can discuss ideas, concepts, politics, and whatever else is pissing you off — but no threats. There is this little group that I like to call the Secret Service, and they tend to frown on that sort of thing — and I would prefer that we don’t have to deal with them on a daily basis. Plus, frankly, it’s just bad form. If you have questions about this, please feel free to e-mail me at ReddHedd AT firedoglake DOT com. But as I have made this clear numerous times in the past, you can expect that I will be enforcing a no tolerance policy on this sort of thing — consider yourselves forewarned.
selise @ 286
I can appreciate the position CHS set in that quote.
I don’t think it covers what the dialogue was about, tonight.
Apples and oranges.
Now, please. Let them talk, Selise. Let them talk.
larue: if you wish to defame those you disagree with here as fascist, only you have control over your words.
None of my remarks have suggested you cease commenting here.
If - mighty warrior - disagreeing with you feels like an invitation to leave, I genuinely pity you.
I couldn’t give a flying jump if you continue to comment here or not.
How is the rhetorical trick bag looking, larue?
Is it working for you?
First falsely imply you’ve been asked to go elsewhere, then beat your chest over it.
Transparent, pathetic, and misleading.
Why am I thinking of Travis Bickle?
In the increasingly unlikely event you demonstrate the capacity to comprehend the shac 7 case, do let someone know - if they bother to read you.
henceforth, I won’t bother.
larue- CHS and Jane set the policy for this site. What Selise quotes above is what I have read from CHS. And, I have also heard via other means, exactly the same thing from Jane.
FDL is not the place to advocate violence. Both Jane and Christy have been clear about this in the past. If that is the approach that you wish to take, then you will have to find another place to do that.
larue @ 284
you are confusing passive resistance with nonviolence. the two are polar opposites.
kirk murphy @ 277
Sorry that you interpret my words that way. I will retain my right to be semi-anonymous, but the blog owners can easily use my e-mail to determine my very public identity, and I suppose if they are alarmed by what I have said here they can report me to the the authorities. I think that would be outrageous, but, they can easily enough find out who I am and my entire fairly public life story. I assure you it is not that interesting!
Perhaps the basic beliefs of the FDL owners are more pacifist than I was aware. To my mind a full blown fascist take over our government would be akin to a foreign invasion. It would be a condition of war and we’d all have to decide which side we were on, and what means we chose (whether violent or nonviolent) to resist.
I have never spoken of violent political change. I spoke from the beginning, evidently too articulately, about meeting violence with violence, and about REestablishing democracy by violent means if it is violently overthrown.
To quote myself (for which I apologize in advance):
Now if that isn’t completely clear (and I see room for questions) I mean to say that a violent overthrow of legal government should be met by a violent reestablishment of constitutional government.
Here I was clearer… “re-take” … I’m talking about a response to a military coup or a complete and violently enforced overthrow of democracy.
Again, I’m pretty clear here that I’m talking about re-establishing constitutional order after it has been undemocratically terminated.
I think I am also pretty clear that I consider that to be an inherently dangerous path… using a gun to establish the rule of law carries its own deep contradiction between means and ends. I’m pretty sure we can all agree on that.
The only place I left unfortunate room for misinterpretation was in that first paragraph. Sorry about that. The rest however should more than clarify what I was talking about.
If this discussion is too “meta” for a blog about the day to day to and fro of politics, I can see that. I’ll shut up. But I don’t see it as being beyond the pall in the larger progressive context. Thinking about boundary conditions is instructive. Naomi Wolfe invites us to think about boundary conditions.. about what we would all do in extremis.
—-
Finally, it is a commonplace on some but not all progressive boards to say that we “support the troops.” Being pro-military but anti-Iraq war, supportive of military violence in some circumstances but not in this one, is surely not something that rules a person out of the legitimate sphere of discusison.
For my part, I frequently state that I do not support the troops because, as volunteers in Iraq they have made a moral choice that I disagree with. But I do support the use of military violence for life saving and morally legitimate ends. MANY progressives do. I have pointed out that there are imaginable circumstances where that support may apply domestically as well. Naomi Wolfe has pointed out one path that might lead to that outcome. I don’t fully understand the resistance that that idea seems to have created. To me, the potential need for a violent response to a violent overthrow seems to be a necessary and important conclusion.
It is also a conclusion that the right in this country doesn’t hesitate to come to around guns. The fact that the right does it is no argument in favor of it, of course, but consideration of how the “people” might resist an overreaching central authority is a long standing stream in American politics, one that cuts across the right and the left. Again, why the alarm? All sorts of right wing folks are prepared to resist the incursions of an overbearing central government with their deer hunting rifles. Do we on the left have a different strategy if the regime in Washington DC turns violently fascist? Should we? I’m no gun owner. I believe that communities working together locally, not lone nuts in their hideaways, or fascistic local militias, are the way to resist central power, but I see no harm in considering what might happen and how communities might need to organize to resist.
Sure, sure, it’s all so unlikely, but Wolfe raises the question in my mind of “what if” and I plead guilty to thinking aloud about the answer. To the extent that my thoughts have offended, I apologize. I do not however see the need to retract.
mike @ 291
no one asked you to retract. just to be careful about what you write…. so that we respect the wishes of jane and christy and don’t put them in a position of having to deal with any hassles we may create by what we write here.
that is all.
selise and mike- I was off reading another thread, and just happened back on this one. I will encourage Jane and Christy to read/ reread the comments here.
I have to confess that I have not had time to read them all. However, it seems to me that a philosophical discussion and thoughtful discussion of different responses is okay. And, I think that that is what Selise is saying. But, at the same time, words must be chosen carefully. Not to be making a judgment on comments on this thread.
However, in some ways, it reminds me of the problems surrounding discussion of the Israel/ Palestinian issue. At some sites, such discussion is totally banned because of its inflamatory potential. However, so far, it can continue at FDL, because commenters are able to frame the discussion in a reasonable way, even tho they are passionate in their comments.
That is what I would hope for in continuing this discussion. At first glance, Mike, it seems to me that you have put things in a sufficiently thoughtful way to allow this discussion to go forward.
That is quite different from some comments I have read here, which advocate gratuitous violence, in a totally unthinking way, and naturally, get taken out.
My 2 cents. fwiw.
Valley Girl @ 293 -
thanks for saying it much better than i could. was just trying to support kirk’s reminder to be careful.
Blackwater and other “security” corporations have been flying below the radar for too long. They’re secretive and unaccountable loose cannons who are Cheney’s dream but America’s nightmare.
Talking about the American security state is important because exposure is the last thing they want.
Adventures in deep EPUland…
Bustednuckles @ 47
They have two prime objectives in the United States.
1. Establish an Afganistan-to-America heroin funnel.
2. Crack down on medical marijuana.
Any para-military organization allowed to get away with murder will eventually take to smuggling guns and drugs.
Putting a murderous black market operator like Erik Prince in charge of “drug interdiction” is reminiscent of Nixon putting CIA thug Col. Lucien Conein in charge of US anti-drug efforts in the early 70’s.
Conein helped break the Corsican “French Connection” in order to facilitate the American-Sicilian crime families’ control of international heroin production and distribution.
Count on Erik Prince making a similar “Big Takeover” of US heroin distribution.
Ridge @ 63
Matewan
larue @ 279
Dark Alliance !!!!!
http://www.mega.nu:8080/ampp/webb.html
Deeper EPU …
Some of us have been talking about this since last October 17th. Generally, we were labeled TFH.
Cassandra redux.
“however, with such a force available to would-be despots, democracy can be drastically and quickly weakened.”
See Burma.