Over at the Huffington Post, John Cusack chats with Naomi Klein about her new book, The Shock Doctrine. As I mentioned the other day, it’s quite profound and I can’t put it down:
[B]ecause the decisive role played by shocks and crises have so effectively purged from the official record of the rise of the free market, the extreme tactics on display in Iraq and New Orleans are often mistaken for the unique incompetence or cronyism of the Bush White House. In fact, Bush’s exploits merely represent the monstrously violent and creative culmination of a fifty-year campaign for total corporate liberation.
She’ll also be here for the Book Salon on November 18. You can buy the book here.
Related posts:
- Why Doesn’t the SEC Know about the Doctrine of Implied Waiver?
- David Neiwert Should Be On TV Talking About the Shooting
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes David Swanson, Daybreak: Undoing the Imperial Presidency and Forming a More Perfect Union
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Thomas Ricks – The Gamble: General David Petraeus and the American Military Adventure in Iraq, 2006-2008
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Jurgen Todenhofer, Why Do You Kill?: The Untold Story of the Iraqi Resistance
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Jane!
BADA BING x2!
Jane and Naomi, you Rock!
Naomi Klein: My Canadian hero! And great writer! Like you Jane…
(IMO, Naomi’s also hot…)
Shocking that our Senate is even considering taking one step closer to pre-emptively attacking Iran
Lieberman up Kyl Liebermann amendment uphttp://www.c-span.org/watch/cs_cspan_rm.asp?Cat=TV&Code=CS
Webb pushed for further discussion
I ordered the book this weekend. Wish I had paid for express shipment.
Kyl Lieberman vote on cspan2 now.
Yes, this ties in with a number of observations about how the groundwork for so many things today really stretch back quite a ways.
However, the Bush admin is definitely cashing in on them, where another admin might not…
Biodun @ 4
She’s Canadian too? Wow – last night it was Patrick and now Naomi Klein – where would we be in this country without Canadians?
http://www.c-span.org/watch/cs…..p;Code=CS2
Kathleen @ 5
not shocking. 97-0 last time. Bravo for Webb, though, he’s digging in his heels a bit.
makes the antiwar posturing of (D) Senators look kind of fake, to be supporting the next war while pretending to oppose the current one.
but, on topic and in character, lets not forget how helpful Bill Clinton was is the “fifty-year campaign for total corporate liberation” by jamming NAFTA through over the objections of his own party in Congress at the time.
Clinton just voted aye for kyl/lieberman
NaomiKlein.org.
In less than one year how many of these Senators will be saying I did not know that the Kyl/Lieberman amendment would lead to a pre-emptive attack on Iran.
“I did not have all of the information” “I was going on the information that we had then” “If I would have known then what I know now” “the intelligence we had was false”
Jesus Mary and Joseph help the Iranian people
Al-Gapo is a terrorist organization.
Helen @ 11
Shameful–or shameless, I’m not sure which.
Al Gore I hope you are watching!
How does the re-worded bill read?
The Cheney dream map of the middle east discussed in a thread or two yesterday sure seems to be the big plan.
I heard Clinton vote yes on Kyl Lieberman..
kyl lieberman agreed to 76-22
76 to 22 in favor.
76-22 kyl/lieberman passes
just now on the senate floor:
biden amendment passed.
kyl/lieberman passed. 76 – 22
roll call votes will be posted here shortly.
Senators in less than a year “I did not hear Iaea’s El Baradei say that Iran poses “no imminent threat” Senator Clinton in less than a year ” I did not hear El Baradei say that there “is no verifiable claims” to back up the repeated claims by the “cakewalk” crazies about an “alleged” nuclear weapons program. Clinton “I did not read all the reports”
Clinton in less than a year “I did not hear General Pace say that there is no verifiable evidence to back up the IED claims”
Biden voted No this could move him forward with voters.
How did Obama vote?
Helen @ 11
Maybe this wasn’t so crazy after all…
http://www.examiner.com/a-9531…..crats.html
Liebermans “Bring It On’ moment.
76 Senators who are not just wrong but pure evil.
Kathleen @ 13
“no one could have anticipated…that warmonger Joe Lieberman would hoodwink us into unwittingly green-lighting another war”
Helen @ 21
I hope Webb has had something good and strong to drink today. I don’t think anyone could have worked harder to defeat this thing. I’m sure after getting “whupped” on his legislation to give soldiers some decent rest between tours, he’s not feeling so “colleagial” right now.
Helen @ 11
Hi Helen :)
I know you’re not shocked by her vote. Anyone who is hasn’t been paying attention. PEACE
someone just suggested they have an absence of a quorum.
Wow what a super day the Senate is having. First, in a hearing DiFi avoided voting against a WH crook. Second the Senate approved the partitioning of Iraq despite the fact that they have no standing in Iraq and just now they passed the bloody lieberman amendment as a prelude to a war with Iran. What a great fu**ing day for ‘murica.
how does lieberman continue to get away with this shit? how is he allowed to bypass the committee process for such important bills?
Kyl Lieberman (men who have never put their own asses on the line) move our country closer to a disaster with Iran. Webb’s (a man who has put his ass on the line) amendment to give soldiers more down time, FAILED.
Insanity!
This from Josh:
Black is white, up is down, in is out and good is evil.
WE MADE IT!!! WE ARE FINALLY THERE!!!
it’s 1984…
Les see, who was President in 1984?
Biodun @ 15
no, typical, and par for the course.
from Rulers and Ruled in The U.S. Empire by James Petras,
reviewed by Sherwood Ross at Counterpunch.
the War party chariot is pulled by two steeds, the Donkey and the Elephant.
If you think wars of aggression against countries that pose no threat to the USA are wrong on principle, then there is no national political party for you.
if you think the (D) team deserves support no matter what they advocate, well, this would seem to be an example of putting political faction before country, as the Founders warned against.
Eureka Springs @ 6
Ditto.
What? I thought it got tabled? I must have misread something earlier. ARGH.
RUN AL RUN!
kdh22 @ 29
Hiya – no not shocked. Just….exhausted; she’s “mine”
What nomolos said at 31
About Naomi:
Wow, is all I can say…
I thought Reid said this would not come to the floor for a vote – WTF?
dollars do donuts Obama votes for the next war, though he deserves some respect if he went against the grain on this one.
Kathleen @ 38
I know there is a lot of strong feeling on supporting Gore – but he’s a really sharp and clever guy. Do you think that anyone that smart is going to embrace this load of tarbabies? No way.
sporkovat @ 36
These organizations turned it up just after the invasion of Iraq. Ledeen, Woolsey, Reuel Marc Gerecht, Kristol have been all over the MSM cranking the Iran propaganda up.
Clinton will not get my vote for president even if Duncan Hunter is the Gooper nominee.. Enough!
excuse me while i step away for a bit… otherwise my laptop may end up causing serious damage to my wall.
catch you-all later this afternoon for the hearing on iraq war/occupation supplemental (to be shown on c-span3)
Frivolous question: is Kyl pronounced like “kill” or “kyle” or something else?
*hoping for “kill”*, although nothing beats the “Delay Doolittle bill”…
I have already written the speech for the day Iran Shock and Awe commences.
“No one could have known that President Bush would have used this amendment as a pretext for war.”
-GSD
How low can Congress’s numbers go. They are going to reach new lows faster than Bush
selise @ 46
Bless you selise; I would be lost without you.
peanutbutter @ 47
Like Heil Hitler
Eureka Springs @ 45
You know, if Clinton is the nominee, we could start a campaign to write-in Edwards…
Eureka Springs @ 45
that’s the spirit! if they nominate and run someone who yearns so badly to be a warmongering repug, then people will just pick a real warmongering repug, and the (D) party will have snatched defeat from almost certain victory, yet again.
and, touching base on the post topic again, H. Clinton represents the DLC, tireless fighters for “fifty-year campaign for total corporate liberation.”
On the short film:
Brisingamen @ 52
You know, despite Hillary’s supposed front-runner status, Barack Obama is the one who’s getting all the money. If you think of the donors as the people who are paying the most attention–and therefore the people making the most informed decsions–that’s a very heartening sign.
Shock.
What next election?
a nice slippery escape!
JEP @ 24
Maybe a way to take her out. The media is all about Hillary Hillary, barely ever hear about Edwards. She gets the nomination and then this vote brings her down.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=as8mFBSa4Zg
Toby Wollin @ 43
He has a sense of duty, and he has to live in this world like the rest of us. It’s not like he can go off to be Emperor of the Moon and avoid the consequences of failing to oppose these twits.
sporkovat @ 58
wow…such fortitude, such conviction, such leadership.
Toby Wollin @ 28
Well I certainly hope he’s not feeling collegial! Maybe now he’ll start figuring that if the Rethugs are for something, that should be your first clue that it may not be the best thing for you. The Rethugs have been wrong about virtually everything, and they refuse to put anything akin to a win in the Dems column, so if they like it, be afraid. Be very afraid. And stop voting for stupid things like FISA adjustment that takes the court out of the FISA business and broadens WH authority and control. Also, it would behoove you to refrain from rebukes of you party brothers and sisters over an ad that questions the integrity of a general who is being used as a mouthpiece by the WH, amongst others.
For me, it’s been Edwards. Then, lately, I’ve added Dodd. He’s been very good. Maybe he always was and we just hadn’t noticed.
Toby Wollin @ 8
It hurts us and scares us too, y’know. I’m a Canadian, and I follow your hearings, especially the HJC and the SJC, because I’m as worried as you are. I would love to jump in and write to some of my/your favourite senators, but I know they wouldn’t listen to me — no votes in Ontario.
A lot of us up here are watching and hoping against hope, though. Good luck. The rest of the world needs you and hopes for you.
Biden voted no..is this his move forward?
Corporate debauchery. Been waiting so long for this. But the concept must permeate to the masses to do any good. Redistribution of wealth is what I am working for. This… is my politics. It defines my political desire.
Lieberman said on the floor in the whopping TWO MINUTES of debate they scheduled for this mindless travesty of an Insanity of the Senate Resolution, that Paragraphs 3 and 4 in the original amendment were stricken in response to objections (from Webb and Durbin, I assume – I heard no other public protestations). Durbin ended up voting Aye. As Webb firmly reiterated, however, in opposition:
This resolution recommends that the State Dept. classify a portion of a sovereign nation’s military forces as a “terrorist organization,” which has never been done before. If “we” are being attacked by a nation’s military forces – that’s “war,” isn’t it, by definition?
Waltzing to War Without A Whimper. A pox on all their houses – but especially on those of Harry Reid and Carl Levin.
[Jim Webb, it is so, so important and valuable that you stood up against this, and we are very, very grateful for that. But Webb and Feingold: please also consider starting to OBJECT on the floor to the UCs even when there are more than 60 votes in favor, on principle - isn’t preventing war worth that extra step? Sheldon Whitehouse: A very disappointing Aye vote. No votes I heard: Webb, Feingold, Tester, Kerry, Kennedy, Dodd, Boxer, Biden, Klobuchar.]
Solai @ 63
Overall I like Dodds as well. He’s another snowball like Kucinich, though. But I say we always need gadflies, which role these two definitely provide.
Edwards is harder for me to figure out. He’s basically invisible in the polls, but seems to have much better visibility than the above two (I daresay most people know Edwards is running; and most people will not have even heard of Kucinich or Dodd…)
Ah well.
Edwards ‘08!!
Obama is in NH today.
-GSD
The roll call hasn’t been posted yet. How did Obama vote? Anyone?
News on the wording oo the Kyl/Lieberman bill. Per TPM
http://tpmelectioncentral.com/…..margin.php
“The commander of U.S. military forces in the Middle East does not believe current tensions with Iran will lead to war and urges for greater emphasis on dialogue and diplomacy.
“This constant drum beat of conflict is what strikes me which is not helpful and not useful,” Adm. William Fallon said in an interview with Al-Jazeera television, which made a partial transcript available Sunday.
Fallon, the head of U.S. Central Command, wraps up a seven-nation tour of the region on Tuesday that included stops in Persian Gulf countries, Afghanistan and Iraq.
Many of the talks with military and political leaders were dominated by worries about expanding Iranian influence and U.S. accusations that Iran is supplying arms and training to Shiite militiamen in Iraq.
“I expect that there will be no war and that is what we ought to be working for,” said Fallon during the Friday interview at Al-Jazeera’s headquarters in Qatar. “We should find ways through which we can bring countries to work together for the benefit of all …. It is not a good idea to be in a state of war. We ought to try and to do our utmost to create different conditions.”
http://ap.google.com/article/A…..qNIXHshH7g
“if you think the (D) team deserves support no matter what they advocate, well, this would seem to be an example of putting political faction before country, as the Founders warned against.”
Get real, Sparky, putting both parties on the same page, and not just thier wayward members, ignores some harsh realities all you concern-trolls seem to want to ignore.
Here are D’s to consider who don’t fit your one-size-fits-all model – Edwards, Biden, Dodd, Kucinich, Al Gore, the list goes on, just count the nay votes…
Republicans? Hagel, Paul ? ? ? ?
Feel free to criticize individual Democrats, but don’t use “The Democrats,” as a party, it contains too many peace-loving men and women to condemn as a whole, the way one might be justified in doing with the lemming Republicans.
This is a Republican war, started under a Republican three-branch monopoly, managed by a Republican neocon cabal.
We all know that there are some Democrats who helped enable those Republicans, but as a party, you can hardly blame them for what REPUBLICANS did with the help of a Republican House, a Republican Senate and a Republican Supreme Court all in the iron grasp of the consumate neocon Republican OVP, thus by extension, the Republican White House.
If the Dems had controlled even one of the three branches at the time this all started, you might convince me the party as a whole is cuplable.
But the reality is, the Dems were ruled and over-ruled mercilessly by the R’s, and no amount of historical revisionism can change the fact, one that the R’s openly bragged about.
“Kick their soft teeth down their whiney throats…”
Now that they are being held accountable for their egregious mistakes, the Republicans are suddenly co-opting those wayward Dems like Clinton and Lieberdem, to spread the guilt around. And all the Independent bitterheads and Republican apologists are glomming onto it desperately.
So what is it, are you a proud Republican because you ruled in spite of the Democrats, or are you ashamed and you want the Dems to take on some of that guilt?
Either/or, there’s not much wriggle room in between.
GSD @ 69
They’re all at Dartmouth today for the debate that Timmeh is moderating. And I also know where they’re all staying, including MSM: At the College Inn (don’t be deceived by the name: It’s quite swanky and the food is great!) by the Green at Hanover.
The people to Hillary “why do you build us up just to let us down”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=du-b-fRTzkQ
My son is a scholar of Herman Melville. Today, I came across this quote from another, much earlier scholar of Melville, C.R.L. James:
skdadl @ 64
Except that we seem to have exported all the writing ability, brains and truth-telling north of the border.
Biodun @ 70
Obama missed the vote.
Kathleen @ 33
Totally disgusting display from our own representatives. They represent us; they do whatever they do in our names. Yet apx 70% want out of Iraq, and don’t want to start WWIII with Iraq. Why aren’t more of our Representatives on the same page with us?
back to Naomi:
I highly recommend this discussion, hosted by the lovely and talented Amy Goodman on Democracy Now!: Alan Greenspan vs. Naomi Klein on the Iraq War, Bush’s Tax Cuts, Economic Populism, Crony Capitalism and More
THE hands-down BEST interview with Alan Greenspan EVER, beating out even Jon Stewart in actually taking the guy to task about Free Market Capitalistic ideology. He, of course, accuses her of being a Socialist. The grand finale is Greenspan PRETENDING HE DIDN’T UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION to avoid answering about cronyism in this administration.
Naomi rocks, rolls, and blows ‘em out of the water!
Is anyone keeping a list of how many times the Democrats have failed in the last few weeks?
There was the Lieberman anti-Iran amendment before this one.
The Webb Amendment on troop down time
The Feingold Amendment on troop withdrawal
The Cornyn resolution to condemn the MoveOn ad
The Specter amendment to restore habeas corpus
The House Lantos anti-Iran bill
The bill to give DC a voting representative
The Kyl-Lieberman anti-Iran Amendment
These are some of the measures that Democrats either voted the wrong way on or failed to force the Republicans to filibuster. All of them except the first Lieberman anti-Iran amendment which goes back to July 11 have happened since September 18. Can we just call the Democratic Party the Republican Party now?
We’ve had the Great Communicator.
Now we have the Great Triangulator.
My candidate has not yet declared.
Solai @ 63
Obama fudges the numbers. If you buy a bumper sticker from him, he counts the money as a “donation” and (more importantly) he counts you as a “donor.” Thus, he has many more donors than he would otherwise, and the average donation is smaller. This is how he creates the appearance of being the little guy’s candidate, supported by the masses.
I thought Webb’s point that this was no way to establish foreign policy was a good one. For that reason alone, everyone should have voted ‘no’.
“Abizaid suggested military action to pre-empt Iran’s nuclear ambitions might not be the wisest course.
“War, in the state-to-state sense, in that part of the region would be devastating for everybody, and we should avoid it — in my mind — to every extent that we can,” he said. “On the other hand, we can’t allow the Iranians to continue to push in ways that are injurious to our vital interests.”
http://ap.google.com/article/A…..Kyj1HxPoJw
He suggested that many in Iran — perhaps even some in the Tehran government — are open to cooperating with the West. The thrust of his remarks was a call for patience in dealing with Iran, which President Bush early in his first term labeled one of the “axis of evil” nations, along with North Korea and Iraq.
He said there is a basis for hope that Iran, over time, will move away from its current anti-Western stance.”
Helen @ 11
It is OK she can say her vote was “mistaken” and all will be well.
As for BO well he is a ken doll
Solai @ 83
“Should” has no meaning for either the Democrats or the Republicans.
Hillary just “cheney’d” herself!
Helen @ 11
Wonder if Hillary knows that German leaders hung at Nuremberg for wars of aggression against other nations.
Hillary, Lieberman, and Condi – and everyone in the Senate who vote to facilitate Bush’s war of aggression against Iran are complicit in international war crimes.
If the US attacks, I hope the US leaders responsible are ultimately sentenced to hang – and then have their sentences commuted to life by the UN.
Today the US Senate advances war crimes.
Heil Hillary!
Re: HRC. My bestest friend suggests I wait ’til tonight to comment on this subject.
Bush is institutionalizing controversial anti-terror programs so they can be used by the next president.
“Look, I’d like to make as many hard decisions as I can make, and do a lot of the heavy lifting prior to whoever my successor is,” Bush said. “And then that person is going to have to come and look at the same data I’ve been looking at, and come to their own conclusion.”
No matter who the president is, no matter what party, when they sit here in the Oval Office and seriously consider the effect of a vacuum being created in the Middle East, particularly one trying to be created by al Qaeda, they will then begin to understand the need to continue to support the young democracy.”
Isn’t the heavy lifter the creator of the very vacuum of which he speaks? A legend in his own mind.
One wonders about the source of said data specially prepared for a guy that requires a DVD moving picture story to appreciate the severity of a major hurricane.
Seems he’s confused in the use of the vacuum metaphor.
OK kiddo, what is happening tonight?
Kathleen @ 38
Did you put your $0.02 in? I’m serious, did you hear about that movement to send two cents to his office to encourage him to run. It seemed real, and was not sending the pennies to a PO box, but to an actual address that is supposedly his office (or one of them.) They also suggest writing a note promising more money for his campaign if he runs. Just wondered how widespread this effort was.
Yes, back to Naomi:
My bold. (I like my bold.) As they say, the apples haven’t fallen too far from the tree. (She’s hot, lucid, and a damn good writer.)
Toby @ 76:
Oh, well. We have jerks of our own up here. You should meet our PM. At the moment, he’s working hard at “harmonizing” us with Bushco, and it’s still not certain that he won’t succeed.
We also have hyper-politicized generals who don’t know where that bright line is between citizen oversight and sentimental manipulation of public opinion by military leaders. We’re scared too.
Solai @ 84
Webbs point was what is the hurry? Can we please discuss this critical issue?
DEJA F—ing VU!
hackworth @ 90
that person is singular. That person will have to come to his or her own conclusions.
Isn’t the heavy lifter the creator of the very vacuum of which he speaks? A legend in his own mind.
One wonders about the source of said data specially prepared for a guy that requires a DVD moving picture story to appreciate the severity of a major hurricane.
Seems he’s confused in the use of the vacuum metaphor.
The vacuum is trying to be created. And it wants Al Q to do it. Don’t you know he has no responsibility. Note to Shrub: Vacuums don’t do anything. They just suck.
OT & possibly ON (Old News): Clinton vote aye on the Kyl-Lieberman amendment, which passed 76 to 22: http://tpmelectioncentral.com/…..margin.php
Re: Obama:
Did he skip the Boxer Amendment and vote Nay for the Cronyn? Please someone refresh my memory.
Oh, I realized you (OK kiddo) were referring to the debate, but why will they change any comment we have about Hillary doing this?
Kathleen @ 95
I agree with Webb’s point (viz., “What’s the hurry?) but the answer given by the republicans, sub silento, is “This is show biz., and their President is in the U.S. We must at least embarrass him, and poisen the well.”
sporkovat is no “concern troll,” JEP @ 73 (although I agree with you that naming names is important). sporkovat’s comments usually hit the nail right on the head.
If Clinton, Dodd, and Biden could be present for this vote in advance of tonight’s NH debate, why was Obama unable to make it, in the middle of the Senate workday and workweek?
The wonderful thing about A*P*C and the other hidden influence-wielders behind the scenes for whom our Congress now “works,” is that their string-pulling is so invisible and never publicly identified with any specificity, or with any proof, as the source of the motivation behind votes like these. The less attention that’s paid to A*P*C, the better they like it, and the more Carl Levin and Harry Reid can do for them.
“Nobody, not a single soul, thought that in the managers, the superintendents, the executives, the administrators would arise such loathing and bitterness against the society of free enterprise, the market and democracy, that they would try to reorganize it to suit themselves and, if need be, destroy civilization in the process…”
Thanks, Mitch, we needed that…
And Hugh, see my post at 73.
Democrats in COngress may be part of the problem, not “The Democrats” per se, there are a lot of “The Democrats” who have been just as opposed to this war as ny independents, greens and libertarians…
SO now, because SOME Dems, the ones in Congress, are wayward, you blame “The Dems?”
Joe Wilson’s a Dem, is it his fault, too? How about Dennis? Is he to blame?
Too many good Dems to lump them all in with their beltway-corrupted congresscritters… so please, remember how offended some of you get when your own persuasions are lumped in with some of the more-unsavory apects.
As a Democrat, who has publicly and vociferously opposed this war since long before it started, it simply offends me to be lumped in with the warmongers.
Its like a gay person being lumped in with child molesters, all stupid hicks that include both on the same page are a lot like these people who put Dems into the same category as the Republicans who actually started this war.
If you can’t differentiate between the miscreants in the party and the party itself, you are no better than those dumb hicks.
Obama voted yes for Boxer and skipped the Box Turtle resolution.
pow wow @ 101
Glad to hear you admit that you have no proof that A*P AC pulls strings.
MSNBC: question to college students regarding where they get their news….Student: We have our own streaming news on our website, Fox News just pops right up.
punaise @ 61
such poor travel planning…
Toby Wollin @ 43
That may be why he’s so reluctant to jump in again, just when he thinks he’s found his niche in life. OTOH, what if you’ve been told by people you respect that you may very well be our best chance at survival as a species. What if you haven’t heard anyone with better ideas than you, and instead, you see an awful lot of mistakes and attempts to cover up mistakes. I’m talkin’ about Constitutional mistakes. What if you come to believe that you may be humanity’s best chance at this crucial time. Even though you may not look forward to doing the campaigning you have to do to get there, you might once again consider throwing your hat into the race. A true leader will usually step up at times like this. This is what gives me hope that Gore will ultimately run, but it remains to be scene. Tune in tomorrow for another Chapter…
Big Mitch @ 105
no proof doesn’t mean there’s not lots of evidence:
yesterday the House passed lantos’ reprehensible bill H.R.1400, “Iran Counter-Proliferation Act of 2007,” by 397 – 16. this bill was introduced in march and brought to a vote during ahmadinejad’s visit.
from the jerusalem post:
my bold
RUN, AL, RUN.
In your dreams …
Actually, in mine. Quite literally. Last night, I dreamed he ran, and guess who was his campaign manager. That would be your faithful correspondent, Big Mitch!
On the overvaluation of Ahmadinejad in the US and in the West in general:
I will not debate A*P*C here, or hi-jack this thread.
Sagacity @ 100
We just want to assemble more information. ;0)
Big Mitch @ 105
Let it go!!!!!!
JEP,
I don’t buy this argument. Cable news has Keith Olbermann and David Schuster but it is still crap. I would say the same could be said of the Democrats. They either need to produce results or put up one hell of a fight trying to. All the Democrats are doing now is caving in right and left. They do not deserve either our support or respect.
Big Mitch @ 112
ok, fine with me… but be prepared for responses to your comments if i’m around (and i have a strong opinion… which is almost always *g*)
Josh Marshall on the Kyl/Lieberman amendment
this amendment will “put in place a set of legislative building blocks” for a pre-meptive strike on Iran
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/n…..an_bil.php
Hillary, do us all a favor and crossover to the Republican ticket.
Don’t know if mocking him makes me The Great Satan, but what about calling him “Mini-Jab” for short, kind of a cross between “Mini-Me” and “Jib-Jab”
…then someone can do a “Evil Dr. Bush with little Mini-Jab” parody cartoon…
later…
Oklahoma kiddo @ 112
Here’s a piece of information to include. HRC’s poll numbers are going up dramatically in N.H., at the expense of Obama.
The point? Like it or not, she may be our next Democratic nominee, and we should get used to supporting her.
On the like it or not thing: I don’t. She’s not in my top five Democratic candidates.
Sagacity @ 104
Thanks…So only Feingold voted Nay twice…
Kathleen @ 117
with the overwhelming passage of lantos’ bill in the house yesterday, i’m afraid that may be the case.
Big Mitch @ 112
you’re a patient man, Big M.
I’m not gonna get sucked into it either but I am always disconcerted by the echoes of “international Z*on*st consiracy” getting louder all the time.
Edited and released by Mods
LS @ 106
The right-wing induced dummying down of America has been successful. That warmongering xen*ph*bia has such tremendous appeal speaks volumes.
Edited and released by Mods
Hugh @ 115
I’m a Democrat, and my position has never changed. I know a hundred others who have never wavered. So we all are “bad” because some Democrats aren’t doing what is right?
My point is, you see “Demcrats” through a myopic lens, and don’t realize that term isn’t just the congresspeople, it is MILLIONS of peace-loving folks, and labeling all of us “losers” just suggests you are prejudiced.
Are you a Republican?
Biodun @ 121
correct.
i think he also voted no on both the biden and kyl/lieberman amendments today.
more feingolds please.
Biodun @ 121
just another stupid Democrat?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 81
I was just thinking, I bet a certain candidate has been working hard getting a certain ex-VP’s endorsement. After all, how would it look if Gore were to endorse someone beside Hillary. OTOH, I think he was in Congress with Dodd and Biden, and maybe also with Richardson. Maybe he’ll get in just so he doesn’t have to pick one of them!
selise @ 109
The A*P*C indictment. Read the whole thing!
Just a little proof Mitch
http://www.globalsecurity.org/…..ug2005.htm
JEP @ 123
lol. surely you have seen this?
Good morning – What a way to start a beautiful day. Joe can ruin anything.
I really need to talk to Harry Reid. His aides have no idea what is going on. I need a real conversation. Reid couldn’t stop the Kyl Lieberman Amendment from coming to the floor since it is attached to a bill but he could certainly influence.
This is not weakness but collusion.
As for the rest of the country, I don’t think they have any idea what is going on. Nor, care for that matter.
Big Mitch @ 120
Living in NH for lo these many years I have found that 1/ Early polls mean nothing and 2/Early polls don’t mean anything.
I guess it would be fair to say that HCs followers (MSM?) are grasping at straws with this poll. Undecided and un-favorable ratings are what is of interest in this, and other, polls. With 55% undecided and a 47% unfavorable rating HC’s chances of winning the NH primary, if it were held today, are slim and none.
The NH voter is as savvy as they come despite what some out of Staters would have the MSM believe. We have met, many times in some instances, all the candidates. We have had them in our homes and we can tell fluff from fact and reality from rhetoric.
HC is a product of the DLC, she is packaged, primped and prepared by her corporate handlers and, having met and heard her many a time, she is about as believable as the idiot in the WH.
The NH voter is as independent as they come. They distrust most of that that is produced in the beltway. They very rarely tell pollsters the whole, unvarnished, truth. They delight in leading political pundits down the garden path and yet when they get into the voting booth they may disagree with some of the political positions their candidate of choice takes but will not vote for outright liars. As an example how well have the various bushies done in NH despite early polls?
Attend any house party for any candidate in NH and you will soon hear negative after negative about HC and negatives mean a ‘NO’ vote in the election….. despite what the political operatives would like us to believe.
Which reminds me: I forgot to mention Anne Flaherty’s gutsy call-out of the “Israeli Lobby” in her Associated Press report about yesterday’s House vote on the Lantos bill – where she stated (without any itemization of proof) that the lobby has strong sway on both sides of the aisle. That’s a new development in reporting by the official media.
Our Congress now does its most important business behind closed doors. Just like the way our votes are now counted. For a day and a half, strong-arm negotiations of some unknown sort, among unknown Senators, have been going on off the Senate floor until – with a grand total of two minutes of public debate – the “deal” was suddenly brought to the floor and to a vote (the two minutes allotted for debate on the Biden amendment were yielded back and not used). Monitoring such backroom negotiations without the benefit of being present or having public access to same, is basically impossible for the American people. Which is just the way Harry Reid likes it.
Solai @ 63
Edwards & Dodd have been my top choices for the past few months.
Bob in HI
So much to discuss later.
Senate Appropriations hearing starting now on c-span3.
To hold hearings to examine proposed budget estimates for fiscal year 2008 for the President’s supplemental request for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
lots of lovely chanting prior to the hearing being called to order. “shame” and “no blood for oil” and “bring them home”
QuakerGirl @ 131
QG – is there one person working in any senator’s office that knows anything? It seems that when we call we get the Village Idiot answering the phone in every office. Either they don’t have any familiarity with the issue or legislation at hand, or they don’t know the senator’s position on the legislation or issue at hand. It’s either that, OR they’ve been told to say that to frustrate the callers and drive us all insane.
selise @ 128
not a Republican, obviously not a Democrat, maybe a Naderite? Or was I right-on with the independent bitterhead remark?
Blanket statements about millions of people suggests some form of prejudice, no matter what the motives…
Nomolos @ 132: From your lips to god’s ears. (BTW I agree with your analysis)
OT, New Froomkin up Bush’s Media Cherry Picking
JEP @ 136
or maybe just some understandable frustration with our congress?
LS @ 72
How did a sensible person wind up in CentCom in this administration?
Bob in HI
I’ll keep coming back to Naomi Klein:
Naomi Klein’s new book, The Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism, tells the history of how the American version of “free market” capitalism has spread in moments of crisis and catastrophe, when societies are too traumatized and disoriented to challenge the introduction of radical economic policies that go against their own interests.
The Shock Doctrine has already been published and translated in several countries. Excerpts from Klein’s book were published in the British newspaper, The Guardian, and discussion about the book has raged onThe Guardian’s online site, Comment Is Free as well as in the German, French and Canadian press. I attended Klein’s U.S. book launch event at the New York Society for Ethical Culture on September 17 where she described her work and her experiences dealing with a foreign press frequently hostile to her arguments.
JEP @ 123
I’m a progressive.
And as I said I’m interested in results. I can see why you would want to put as much distance between yourself and the many elected Democrats in the Congress who are actively enabling Bush and the Republicans. But most of what goes on in the Senate is covered by unanimous consent agreements. These take only a single objecting Senator to stop. Where are your good Democrats then?
JEP:
You’re using semantic contortions to try to win an argument, to what end I don’t know. “Democrats” in the context here clearly means “Democratic Senators”. It takes a lot of nerve to call a bunch of Democratic activists “Republicans” for criticizing the elected officials who gave us this war and continue to fund it.
nomolos @ 132
If you’re right, and you sound like you know whereof you speak, then I fell for it.
robert byrd is actually yelling about the cost of this “terrible war”.
byrd is chairing the appropriations committee hearing. this could be good.
Here are the nays on Heil Lieberman
NAYs —22
Biden (D-DE)
Bingaman (D-NM)
Boxer (D-CA)
Brown (D-OH)
Byrd (D-WV)
Cantwell (D-WA)
Dodd (D-CT)
Feingold (D-WI)
Hagel (R-NE)
Harkin (D-IA)
Inouye (D-HI)
Kennedy (D-MA)
Kerry (D-MA)
Klobuchar (D-MN)
Leahy (D-VT)
Lincoln (D-AR)
Lugar (R-IN)
McCaskill (D-MO)
Sanders (I-VT)
Tester (D-MT)
Webb (D-VA)
Wyden (D-OR)
McCain and Obama did not vote
I don’t like it much when someone advises me I “should get used to” something.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 133
LOL. You can say that again…*g*
bobschacht @ 142
Well, he did spot Patreaus as a “chickenshit kiss-up.”
Biodun @ 143
I’m really looking forward to reading the book, but I think we all know too little to comment right now. Though her point of view is really compelling and I’m sure she is totally on-target, I never know how to deal with what I learn; it overwhelms me.
Sen. Byrd on fire and being cheered by the gallery.
dakine01 @ 140
Bush’s data is hand selected to be the best data in the whole wide world. Bush sez that when the next president sees his data, they will see the importance of being a terra fighter too.
The fly in the ointment: the next president might be capable of reading and interpreting his own data. It won’t necessarily be data produced by Cheeney on DVD.
My last point, then I’ll let you all get on with the really important stuff;
You can safely make a case that “Republicans” as a perty started and perpetuated this war. From the rank and file members to their leadership at the top end, they were of one mind andone motive, to go to war at any cost and at every cost.
But Democrats, the rank and file, are the ones who voted last time arond got all you libertarians, independents and greens what little influence you have been able to garner.
So now that the Congressinal Democrats have caved, you include all of us in that failure, as if we did not win back the majority for the rest of you.
Shameful, and I would suggest everyone here revisit some of the superficial anti-Democrat ravings you all suppose are from “righteous liberals” who can’t abide “either the Rs or the D’s” all you geniuses may have been led down more than one primrose path by some very effective trolls-in-lib clothing.
Eureka Springs @ 146 –
thank you ES!
lol. byrd got the code pink folks to cheer.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 149
Me neither, but this is what the MSM has been doing. And they are well on the way to making it so.
Happy to see Senator Bingaman on that list. I guess we have a handful of stand-up, but it is not much. . .
Reading the amended Kyl/Lieberman Amendment, it is interesting to note the sections added stressing the pursuit of diplomatic means in dealing with Iran. Also, the broader carte blanche language has been removed. It just basically says that any means to stop Iran’s activities “inside” Iraq are okay.
I don’t think it is anywhere as big a deal now that it has been amended. I also don’t think that HRC or any other “candidate’s” support of it are of any real consequence. In fact, the diplomatic language will help to hold the diplomatic feet to the fire, and if W/Cheenee go ahead and attack the country of Iran without extensive diplomatic efforts, it will be going against the recommendations in the amendment. JMHO…I could be completely wrong.
Byrd doing his best – he’s wonderful – old-style politico, tho he looks terribly frail. Long may he wave!
JEP @ 125
You know damn well we are talking about the dem party, not dem citizens. putting up straw-men is a repub tactic. Are you a repub?
Happy to see my Senator, Amy Klobuchar, on that list.
Selise, What chance will Byrd’s passion be followed by some more passion on paying for this terrible war?
Brother Byrd! Yeah, you’re right! Say it Brother Byrd, Say it! I have never seen Brother Byrd say it so well. He’s right, you know, he’s right!
bg @ 156
MI’s two senators dissapoint me once again. argh.
JEP @ 73
I would give you the benefit of hindsight in what you’ve said about how things have evolved into the current state of political affairs. However, is what you’re saying that we should not hold the Democrats responsible for not standing up and fighting a tactically viable, rational, coordinated and vigorous fight to restore the Constitution, to enforce their subpoenas and restore checks and balances and their own powers of government (after all, when Condi Rice thinks she can just blow congress off, that’s a really low bar.) I don’t care what happened before this Congress was installed; but they are responsible for what’s happening now, and not enough seems to have changed. They’re still voting the wrong way, and they wouldn’t know a civil right being abused if it came up and hit them. Think 72-22 to censure Moveon over free political speech, and tell me it’s not fair to blame them. I don’t blame the 22 that voted right, unless of course they were just hedging their bets by voting for Boxer’s bill. Lot of weasels out there. Time to clean out the nest!
bluejeansntshirt @ 153
What exactly were they cheering?
JEP @ 153 –
request from the peanut gallery (that’s me *g*), please lay off the personal insults and name calling. there’s enough to argue about without that.
thanks. appreciate that.
BMitch just wanted to make sure you did not miss just a “wee bit” of proof that A*P*C does indeed pull strings. “allegedly” enough strings to completely undermine US National Security
Indictment for the Franklin/Rosen/Espionage trial
http://www.globalsecurity.org/…..ug2005.htm
itwasntme @ 161
Listen to your elders. They’ve been there, done it all and have drawers full of the t-shirts.
Hugh not a Democrat? News to me. AFAIK from his comments and his huge list, he is a radical Dem polymath citizen.
itwasntme @ 161
Born in Nov., 1917. The guy is running on piss and vinegar.
Big Mitch @ 158
I’m not talking about the MSM. I’m talking about your statement in your #120 @10:53am.
“Like it or not, she may be our next Democratic nominee, and we should get used to supporting her.”
jim oconnor @ 162
imo, and based on the history of these last few months… very, very low.
but, as al gore likes to remind us, politics is a non linear system. keep pushing and at some point we may see a big change. there’s just no way to know…
right now, i’ll take what i can get… and byrd is doing good.
bluejeansntshirt @ 153
Thank you Senator Byrd..thank you
!. Re The return of Naomi Klein with this wonderful book – She disappeared so completely when she cloistered herself to write _The Shock Doctrine_, that I was afraid the most resonant voice in the anti-globalization left had disappeared. e-mails to the nolo site went unanswered. I thought either she had been threatened off the scene, or had had triplets or something. Her return is more important than we yet realize. Her encounter on Democracy Now with Allen Greenspan is an example of how strong an interviewer she is and of how irresistable her clear logic can be.
Re Kyle/Lieberman – As I’ve stated here many times before -, we will be going to war against Iran in this administration. It WILL BE nuclear. It isn’t at all a matter of if, only of when…
Finally, on Naomi’s book:
(Link in previous comments above.)
Oh dear…it almost sounds like Ahmadinijad wrote Maliki’s speech…
The film reminds me of something I learned some time back about how values are learned. I would like to have the info again, as it made a major impression on me, and the source would be good for this time.
Basically the theory was that our values are in place by the time we are 10. After that, it is only a significant personal experience that may cause a change in those values.
The analysis showed what significant events during each decade in the US, starting with 1910 or so, how a significant event each decade shaped all the people who were up to 10 years old at the time, WW1, the depression, WW2, the expansion (50s), etc. Then it explained how Reagan’s values were expressed, as he was 10 in 1920 or so? And on from there.
Then how this shaped the ways people behaved in their lives, based on what was the dominant social event of that decade, when they were 10.
But it would seem to have some value in this discussion. Anyone else heard of this?
Thanks, Biodun. Republicans have no trouble acting like Republicans. Why is it Democrats (in Congress) have so many problems acting like Democrats? It is this which causes so much frustration among us. And it is not our fault for noticing.
ET:
I’m definitely awed by her lucid flawless logic. Can’t you tell? *g*
Here’s some shock doctrine for ya … and I look forward to another “please donate to Democrats” post …
The house voted to censure MoveOn.org 341-79.
The Senate approved the Lieberman/Kyl amendment 76-22.
Looks like our hard-working representatives have stood up for us once again.
Hugh @ 115
Seems to me that the logical extension of this argument is that we should all stop watching and cheering Olbermann because cable news is crap. I don’t think it works in either case.
Ed*ard Teller @ 175
i just can’t resign myself to that… unless/until it really happens. especially if there is any chance to prevent it… obviously congress is not helping.
p.s. completely agree w/ you on klein.
Kathleen @ 176
Now, here’s something truly interesting. According to Wikipedia, Robert Byrd has two daughters. His daughter Mona is married to an Iranian named Mohammad Fatemi.
Ed*ard Teller @ 177
Is the time overdue for the American people to lay down on those war tracks? Hundreds of thousands, well thousands, well hundreds/ Civil disobedience.
Ed*ard Teller @ 177
I wish I could say that you are wrong but I just don’t think that you are. These people in the WH are fu**ing nuts and they do not give a sweet goddamn about anything other than their own ideology.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 174
OKK
Ignore Mitch.
Someone please confirm for me that the L/K ammendment was merely a “sense of the senate resolution.”
Someone please confirm for me that the K/L ammendment was just a “sense of the senate” resolution. Please.
Redshift @ 184
Democrats in Congress act against the larger Democratic Party and voters in general because they think they can. As long as there are no real consequences to them, they are right.
Biodun @ 176
from thomas friedman, who is not always wrong (he is, however, a warmonger):
kdh22:
Wise advice indeed.
Yep. Capitalism and technology work together with shock and awe.
Biodun @ 194
Call it ‘women’s intuition’ :)
Big Mitch @ 191
It was.
Big Mitch @ 191
Mitch – here is the resolution as amended.
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.c…..amendment/
Meanwhile, not to be left behind:
Biodun @ 199
Pathetic. The resolution, of course, not you.
big mitch 191-Someone please confirm for me that the K/L ammendment was just a “sense of the senate” resolution. Please.
=========
see the link at 71, that link has a link to the bill……..
Helen @ 11
Gotta get ready for “the next war”!
Is a vote for Hillary a vote for war?
Solai @ 63
Exactly – Chris Dodd is my choice.