Not many westerners have seen Iraq the way Patrick Graham has seen it and lived to tell about it. Graham lived and traveled with Sunni insurgents for a year for his piece “Beyond Fallujah: A Year With the Iraqi Resistance” for Harper’s in 2004. His recent return to Iraq provided the basis for his MacLean’s magazine cover story, “How George Bush Became the New Saddam” which I wrote about here.
Graham wasn’t interested in taking the Dog and Pony Tour of Iraq with the US DoD like so many of our own bobbleheads. As he wrote for MacLean’s:
(Y)ou could go with the U.S. Army as well, but you learn mostly about Americans if you are with Americans and end up sounding like a visiting columnist for the New York Times…
So much of what has been written and reported to us in the United States about Iraq has been pure fabrication, myth, and PR. The picture Graham’s work paints of Iraq is of a situation much, much more complex than the “Sgt. Rock” comic book scenario that has been spun by the White House, the Pentagon, and their enablers in the US media. In Iraq, multiple factions are working together, then against each other, then together again, all trying to game the system and stay alive at the same time.
I spoke to Graham on the phone on Sunday and he said that Iraq calls to mind that old gambler’s adage, “If you can’t spot the rube in a poker game, then the rube is you.” US forces, both military and political, are walking a dangerous tightrope whereby they are now cozying up to our old enemies the Saddam loyalists in an effort to fight a beast of our own creation, al-Queda in Iraq.
I was surprised that MacLean’s, a normally right-leaning rag, allowed such unfiltered, brass tacks coverage of the burning clusterf*&k that is Iraq to appear in its pages. MacLean’s is, after all, the home of Wingnut All-Star Mark Steyn, who (in addition to his encyclopedic knowledge of the show tunes of Rodgers and Hammerstein) claims to know better than most Americans how America should be handling the “War on Terror”. I asked Graham why he thought MacLean’s gave him the go-ahead.
“Well, in Canada,” he replied, “We don’t really have a dogma in this fight.”
Ha! A journalist and a wit. No wonder his work is too much for most Americans to handle.
We’re very excited to have Mr. Graham as our guest tonight. He should be joining us in the comments shortly, although he has advised me that he’s not the fastest typist in the world. I told him that was no problem and that if necessary, I would be happy to run behind him and fix typos. Once that was settled, he graciously accepted our invitation.
As always when we have guests, we ask that you keep your comments respectful and on-topic. If there’s something off-topic you need to discuss, take it to the previous thread and we’ll catch up later.
So, without further ado, please welcome Mr. Patrick Graham!
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Zed
hubba
Demi reporting for duty.
Excellent, TRex.
Hello, Patrick, thanks for the brave reporting.
Welcome to the Lake, Mr. Graham.
hi TRex and Mr Graham
I notified downstairs, TRex!
Welcome, Patrick.
First question:
Which American writer on Iraq do you find perceptive?
Which television figure?
Hi TRex, thanks for having me. I’m looking forward to this.
Hey, Patrick, thanks so much for coming.
So, a lot of us have been very skeptical of claims that Iran is contributing weapons and support to the conflict in Iraq. (After all the same people who told us that Saddam had WMD’s are the ones telling us that Iran is involved.) Your article touched on that briefly. Could you tell us more about Iran’s role in this war? What is the best course of action, to your thinking?
Evening all. Welcome Patrick. That was an awesome piece you wrote in MacLeans. Given your experiences in Iraq, how do you evaluate coverage in the US media?
Hopper @ 8
I don’t get a lot of info on Iraq from the media. I rely pretty much on my Iraqi friends. But Ghaith Abdul Ahad in the Guardian is extremely good. So are the films by Ali Fadhil.
I guess I need my company manners. Oh, OK.
Hello everyone. Good evening. Welcome Mr. Graham. Nice to meet you.
Mr. Graham, Thanks for being here. What do you think would happen if they split Iraq into three different countries?
Mr. Graham, do you think Iraq would collapse if American forces and contractors were to leave and if so, what do you see filling that vacuum?
TRex @ 10
Iran is involved. No question about it. It has been made easier for them because the US has been carrying out Iranian foreign policy by crushing the Sunni areas and propping up very pro-Iranian sectarian regimes. Now the US has switched sides it has its hands full. I doubt there is much the U.S. can do other than carry out a mostly covert war on the ground and shake sticks in the media.
Welcome Patrick. Thank you for visiting with us. Iraq, Iran and Syria are pressing concerns. Can you tell us about the refugee reports that are seeping out through NGOs in the area?
DrDick @ 11
The coverage varies greatly. It improved a lot when western journalists were forced to depend on their Iraqi staff to gather information. For the first year after the invasion it was pretty poor–sort of, insurgency? What insurgency?
Welcome to the Lake Patrick – it’s a real honor to have you join us.
And thank you for your reporting – it’s so important that word gets out from the non-Green Zone!
Coming from outside the country, how did you gain enough trust from the locals to gain enough good information for reporting?
(-chmoore)
Most of us hope that’s all they’ll do, but we’re worried that the NeoCons will get their way and our military will begin bombing runs over Iran.
Welcome Patrick. It will take me a bit to ask a pertinent question. However, I am glad that TRex was able to recruit you for Late Nite. TRex is known to most as someone who does “snark” at late nite. However, anyone who has been really paying attention to his posts and comments knows that he is not just someone who does snark for comedic effect, but actually has a very keen understanding about the ME. (oh, disclosure: I agree with TRex’s sentiments about that, as voiced on FDL)
bonkers @ 14
I don’t see Iraq splitting up. As I said in my article, I think Iraqis are remarkably nationalists, even if pretty sectarian at times. Countries have solved civil wars before but the probelm with Iraq is that there is so much outside influence tearing it apart.
evening patrick
how refreshing to have an opinion thats not been run thru the rovian wringer ;o)
*blushes*
Aw, VG, you give me too much credit. I just read a lot.
Patrick:
To your knowledge have you been debriefed by the NSA or the CIA, or other aspects of the US intelligence department.
If so, did they ask smart questions?
Patrick, I know this is a question that will require some conjecture on your part, but honestly, how much longer do you think there will be a significant US troop presence in Iraq? Five more years? Ten?
(My hopes of the Democrats bringing a speedy closure to this mess have died an ugly, disheartening death, I’m afraid.)
Just came back from reading the first part of your excellent article, Patrick, and I am looking forward to giving the rest of it the attention it deserves.
Welcome, and thank you for your reporting, and for visiting with us this evening, Mr.Graham.
We are led to believe that Al Qaeda is a real force in Iraq. Please give us your take.
QuakerGirl @ 17
I have only met refugees to Jordan. It’s strange–a lot of my hangouts from the time in Baghdad have moved to Amman. A whole city just up and moved. The problem for Iraqis is that a lot are middle class refugees and for some reason middle class westerners don’t have sympathy for middle class refugees who are bored, depressed, traumatized but not starving. But if they don’t go back in the next few years, there will be no Iraq. A lot of Iraqis are incredibly well educated and they are just the type to make a home elsewhere.
Welcome, Patrick. Thank you for your time. Thanks so much for arranging this and for highlighting both of the Graham articles, TRex.
It’d be very helpful to get a little more understanding of what – assuming it’s more than just the general chaos and lawlessness – has caused the increasingly rigid sectarian division in Iraq since we invaded, especially with the Biden/Brownback/Boxer ‘we’d recommend partitioning Iraq’ amendment ready to soon pass the Senate with “bipartisan” support. [Senator Boxer cited the book The Reckoning by Sandra Mackey as her main source of knowledge about what Iraq was, is, and should be in future.] For example:
1. Was such sectarian separation “inevitable” after the Baathists were removed from power or was this de facto and inexorable ‘divide and rule’ fragmentation of Iraq a deliberately forced – or just ignored – development by the American occupiers? [Noting that August’s BBC/ABC/NHK poll of Iraqis found that 98% of them believe division by sect is a “bad” idea. Also noting that almost no U.S. Armed Forces are, or have been, stationed either in the Kurdish north or in the Shia south.]
2. Do you have any information about whether U.S. occupying forces were neutral during the progression from a 65% Sunni Baghdad to a 75% Shia Baghdad, were a catalyst for that stunning displacement of persons, or were a force to slow it down? Or has the role of the U.S. occupying force changed over the years from one stage to another [setting aside our publicly claimed roles (’fighting to eradicate a sanctuary for Sunni al Qaeda terrorists,’ etc.) apparently generated to help sell and finesse our prolonged occupation of Iraq]?
Mahalo, Patrick, for spending some time here at the Lake! Since the US has switched from supporting the Shi’a over the Sunni, doesn’t that play into the Iranian hands as well? Can a loose confederation of three states (Which is what it is now) really work out in the end?
Welcome, Mr Graham, and thanks for joining us tonite (and thanks to TRex for the chance for this chat!)
Sir, our President and his political allies tell us that the Iraqi people are better off with Saddam out of power. Based on your time amongst the Iraqis, do you agree that they are better off today than when Saddam was in power?
Thanks again.
Patrick, you say you don’t see Iraq splitting up.
Do you think the Kurds will stay in? And relative to that, do you think that they will be willing to postpone that constitutionally mandated referendum that’s supposed to take place by the end of the year?
A lot of people think that referendum is a red-line issue for the Kurds, and that they have no intention of letting go of it. Is there anything that bush or the central government can offer them to make them agree to a postponement?
As a follow up to the question on Iran’s role in the Iraqi conflict, what about Saudi Arabia? There has not been much coverage here in the US, but bits and pieces do filter through. I have seen references that the majority of foreign fighters among the insurgents in Iraq are Saudis and have also seen references to the Saudis, either officially or privately, funding and arming many of the Suni groups.
Welcome. Very grateful that you could join us.
As TRex noted in his intro, there is widespread skepticism of the balance and accuracy of the U.S. media’s reporting on Iraq, based on a belief that U.S. journalists see only what the military wants them to see.
Given the security situation in Iraq, can any Western journalist travel freely enough to develop a balanced view of what is happening there? Or is it inevitable that what any journalist can report from Iraq will depend on who has his or her back?
demi @ 20
I was there under Saddam and during the war. For about 3-6 months after the invasion Iraq was incredibly open. I made most of my friends before the fall of 2003. I just happened to make friends who had family from around Fallujah who knew me as a journalist before the insurgency started. I used to go there on holiday, to swim in the Tigris and eat home-cooked meals. Their cousins turned out to be attacking the US Army…But late spring 2003 was pretty magical in Iraq. But even then there were signs it was starting to slide. Iraqis saw these early and we missed them.
If you read the MacLean’s piece, you’ll see that al-Qaeda in Iraq was non-existent before we came, and insignificant in the wake of the invasion. It was only when the US began to demonize al-Zarqawi day in and day out in the media that people in Iraq began to sign on with Zarqawi and roll under the appellation “al-Queda in Iraq”.
The al-Queda in Iraq, however, have proven to be way more fundamentalist and extremist than either the Sunni or Shia factions are comfortable with, which is why Sunni forces are working with the Americans now to run them out.
These same Sunni forces were cheerfully killing American troops 18 months ago, however, and probably would return to that pursuit with very little provocation.
Although I defer to Patrick’s superior knowledge of the situation in this assessment.
Patrick a dear friend Peggy Gish was in Iraq with the Christian Peace Maker Team both before the invasion and after. The CPT started interviewing and documenting reports from people released from Abu Gharib and family members in prison there. They took these reports to the US military in Iraq within six months after the invasion. They were ignored by the US military and then Seymour Hersh used some of their reports in his New Yorker articles. Peggy came back to Athens Ohio after being in Iraq from Feb 2003 to Oct of 2003. She reported that many of the Iraqi people believe that Chaos, death and destruction in Iraq was the intention of the invasion. They especially began believing this after Garner was replaced with Bremer and he disbanded the Iraqi army.
With all of the “mistakes” that have been made, false intelligence, too few troops, disbanding the Iraqi military, etc etc. Could the Iraqi people that Peggy has referred to be right?
Could the intention have been death and destruction? Oil and regime change being the goal.
We hear very little about the Iraqi refugees here in the states. So little in the news. Congressman Kucinich has gone into Syria to visit with the refugees there. What can you tell us about their situations?
newtonusr @ 29
It is a real force but the name Al Qaeda is misleading–they aren’t from camps in Afghanistan. It is really just Salafists, doctrinaire fundamentalists. They gained a lot of power because the insurgency was demonized by the US Army spokesmen and they got lots of press. Their car and truck bombs were extremely destructive. And also, they are extreme which means they will kill their own side as well as the enemy so they were able to take over a lot of the insurgency. But they got too power-hungry and so a lot of Anbaris turned on them.
Tanbark @ 34
I suspect one of those outside influences Patrick mentioned, has more to do with Kurdish independence, than Baghdad, and it would be the Turkish forces arrayed on their northern border…!!!
Here’s a core question. What will happen, do you think, when the Americans leave?
And if they left after ten years, instead of two years, how would that change the outcome?
I’ve been coming across Iraqis since the early 1980’s in Paris and I found them to be sophisticated, worldly, intelligent, well educated and ambitious. They were accomplished. They were also very kind. In the greater San Francisco Bay Area (there is a large group of Assyrians. I read about them in the European newspapers but they are rarely mentioned in the US. Did you come across them either in Iraq or as refugees? What news of them?
If you were advising the Iranian government as to how best to manage their interests in the region what would you suggest to them as the best way(s) to keep the Americans at bay?
TRex and other fire pups, thank you for introducing us to Mr. Graham.
Mr. Graham, your article is superb and just the sort of information we have been craving from inside our continental bubble. I am fantasizing (in a good way) about having you report to our Congress along with Admiral Fallon.
Having you here at FDL is pretty great. I admire your courage and am grateful there are still truthseekers in this world. Thank you, sir.
As with everyone else, Mr. Graham, I thank you for being here and for your outstanding article in MacLean’s.
Your article is largely from the Sunni perspective, though, and I noticed that it doesn’t mention the top Shiite cleric in Iraq, Grand Ayatollah Sistani. How would you assess Sistani’s role in the development of events since the U.S. invasion — as well as his role/options now?
What do you make of Bush-buddy and Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board member Ray Hunt making a side oil deal with the Kurds? Doesn’t this portend partition, or at least a central government too weak to prevent side deals?
Patrick Graham @ 16
“no question about it” Where is the verifiable proof? Why should we believe this when much of what is being claimed about Iran is coming out of the same mouths that lied our nation into Iraq?
At one point General Pace said that there was no proof to back up these claims.
http://www.defenselink.mil/tra…..iptid=1171
The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff told us this week that there is no evidence that Tehran is behind the road-side bombs in Iraq. None. Zero. Now sure, Bush and Rumsfeld claimed it was true earlier this week. But anyone who actually follows the news knows that the chairman was asked about this the day after and said he’d seen no proof whatsoever to back up the charge.
he Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff told us this week that there is no evidence that Tehran is behind the road-side bombs in Iraq. None. Zero. Now sure, Bush and Rumsfeld claimed it was true earlier this week. But anyone who actually follows the news knows that the chairman was asked about this the day after and said he’d seen no proof whatsoever to back up the charge.
http://www.americablog.com/200…..ts-as.html
Patrick:
Briefly:
Have any oil companies, management companies, or private security companies tried to hire you?
What is your view of Michael Ware, the Autralian CNN man ?
He seems reasonable, clear, and authentic. What is your view?
Per everyone else, a great honor to have you here.
Ctuttle, thanks.
The referendum is not for independence, but for who controls Kirkuk and it’s adjacent oil fields. If it’s held, and if, as seems certain, the Kurds prevail in the vote count, it will certainly be a STEP toward independence, and that’s why some people think the referendum is not for sale or postponement.
That, of course, remains to be seen, but if the Kurds agree to it’s postponement, then you’d think that that agreement is going to cost someone, either bush or the “central government” hiding under it’s desks in Baghdad, some quid for the postponement quo.
And for bush, it looks like quid is getting in shorter supply every day in Iraq (see: events in Basra) AND, in the U.S.
pow wow @ 31
Iraq is pretty opaque and some things are very hard to get a sense of for outsiders. Iraqis tell you that sect is not important and then say but a Shia/Sunni can’t govern the country. But it’s not a Catholic/Protestant split. The Saddam era was incredibly traumatizing and sect became a way to fight against tyranny. When the US came in, it was easiest to see the country along those lines, in part because their advisers like Ahmed Chalabi were playing sectarian politics in order to get power.
As to your second question–I wasn’t there in Baghdad at the time. I don’t think the US army has a sectarian agenda. The army gets a lot more criticism than it deserves. But it was used brutally in Anbar when I was there in 2003/4 as well as in Sadr City.
I do think the army has switched sides now in its over all strategy. They are now working out what Saddam tried to do–keep Iraq together by confront Iran and use the Sunni tribes to threaten the Shia (using the Turks to threaten the Kurds). There has has been some limited success in Anbar where Saddam had a lot of support, too, and some other Sunni areas. But the end game is unclear to me. Once you get into Saddam’s logic, how do you escape his mistakes and his tactics? What do you do about Kirkuk? Those Sunni tribes around Kirkuk are tough tough people…they won’t let the Kurds have the city. Nor will the Turks.
Patrick,
Thanks for being here.
Michael Gordon, the chief military correspondent for The New York Times, has garnered a lot of attention in the U.S. for his reporting from Iraq.
I would be interested to hear your thoughts on Gordon’s recent work – particularly his articles regarding the role of Iran in the war.
An honor!
Why after billions of dollars, Bagdad has about 2 hours of electricity a day?
Kathleen @ 49,
Patrick’s answer will be more authoritative than mine, but I took a swing at that a few months ago here at FDL:
http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..e-in-iraq/
Patrick reading all your comments learning a great deal. Thank you.
I heard Greg Palast say that the Bush administration pre-emptively invaded Iraq was to turn the “oil spigot off not on”. What do you think?
What is Ahmed Chalabi doing now?
burnspbesq @ 36
I think you’ll see more journalists hooking up with the Sunni groups–call them tribes if you will but it is more complex than that. Journalists can get around Baghdad somewhat. The safest way is to go with the Army. My experience with the army is that they are great guys, really impressive. Especially the battlefield officer level–captains, lieutenants etc..and so you are caught in the act of betrayal if you criticize them. It’s hard to describe how powerful a sensation this betrayal eats at you. When someone protects you, you really have this sense of natural gratitude that is family-like. But you miss the vulnerability you get from being outside that protective zone. being with the US army and being on the other side of it–now that is a change in reality. Once you get shot at by them, your critical faculties sharpen. I respect the US army a lot. I just don’t like the way that respect warps my reporting. You end up saying “but then again” a lot.
Hopper @ 50
I like Michael Ware. Especially since he has stopped attempting to hide his disdain for the latest talking points. Wolf Blitzer or some other Republican tool will ask some totally ridiculous question and Ware sighs and rolls his eyes in exasperation. That alone seems to speak volumes to me.
Patrick, it seemed a pretty good guess, in as much as that article was published in MacLeans, that you are a Canadian.
Yes, but it took a bit of googling to confirm that: anyone else, scroll down a this link.
My question is in some sense a minor one, because it does not address the core issues that you raise in your article. Nonetheless, I am interested to know if the fact that you are a Canadian made a difference as to the way that you were received in Iraq (yes would be the obvious answer), if you had to make pains to make it plain that you were not a citizen of BushCo. land, and how your experiences might be different as a result of being a Canadian, rather than a citizen of the US. Thanks.
Who is going to clean up all the D.U.?
My brother, career military, says the US war to win Iraqi allegiance was lost at Abu Ghareb.
Comments?
What’s the D U?
Mr. Graham, I echo everyone’s sentiment at the honor of having you here and I’m in awe of the fantastic work you’ve done. (Also, thanks TRex for getting him here and for pointing me to the his Harper’s article, Beyond Fallujah)
I just saw across the wire that “Sunni Arab extremists have begun a systematic campaign to assassinate police chiefs, police officers, othe Interior Ministry officials and tribal leaders throughout Iraq, staging at least 10 attacks in 48 hours.”
I was wondering if you had any reaction to that development, if you give it any credence, or would this be at odds with what you observed. Are we seeing the beginning of a new chapter in the “Anbar Awakening,” a newly emboldened and sophisticated Sunni strategy, or is this just more of the same?
albert fall @ 60
I thought it was the first battle of Falluja.
A lot of ex-military here Patrick, we understand and appreciate your loyalty.
I have been dumbfounded by Congress’ unwillingness to embrace the Powell Doctrine.
IMVHO, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran do not even come close to meeting the threshold.
Do the military types in Iraq ever mention the Powell Doctrine?
SnarKassandra @ 62
Depleted Uranium, utilized in some munitions!
SnarKassandra @ 61
Depleted Uranium, which is used in some US ordnance.
Patrick, thank you so much for taking our endless(!) questions. As you can see, we are thirsty for non-spun, honest, informed dialogue. Every Q I have read so far has been excellent, and there are far too many to be answered in an hour or two’s blog.
Would you consider writing a follow-up article addressing the most pressing questions that cannot be adequately answered here?
(oh, please say yes!!)
DrDick @ 67
In stereo? ;-)
CT, it looks as though great minds travel once again in the same rut.
With a pre-war population of 25 million. 1 million Iraqi people have been killed, 2 million internally displaced, 2 million externally displaced, 70,ooo leaving a month. In five years one quarter of their pre-war population will be refugees. Was that the plan?
aye @ 53
TRex @ 58
I Like Ware, too. He’s grown on me over the years. We won an award together a while back for covering the insurgency. He’s got a strong sense of drama that is a relief on TV. He’s able to get across how bad the situation is, the way the place is hanging off a cliff. He knows the Sunnis well, too. And I don’t think he’s fooled by all this talk of quaint-sounding “tribes” These new Sunni allies are really really smart people and tough. I mean way smarter than any foreigners. Iraqis are brilliant and after all these years under Saddam and the bad times later, they are fabulous at manipulation. They know they are not the rube in the room and they know who it is…
I’ve read (especially from Larry Johnson and Pat Lang over at noquarterusa.com) that the U.S. military needs to be careful about it’s allegiences, because if the local groups that guard the supply lines coming in from the south get pissed, the U.S. military could…well…lose their supply lines, which would obviously be disaster for them.
Any input on this?
(-chmoore)
DrDick @ 70
Rut? :P
neokneme @ 61
Now that’s an interesting question.
My thought is that we will probably never get all that cleaned up. Yay, America! Ensuring cancers and birth defects for generations of Iraqis.
SnarKassandra @ 63
Depleted uranium. Used a lot in armor-piercing ordnance. Nasty stuff.
SnarKassandra @ 63
Depleted Uranium, a form of nuclear waste that is used to make US weapons more deadly and more effective at piercing armor and other obstacles.
TRex @ 74
I fear you are right. Just look what a wonderful job we did cleaning up after ourselves in Viet Nam (people are still getting killed by unexploded munitions).
Oops.
Jinx, burnsy.
albert fall @ 61
My guess is that it was lost before that in the spring of 2003 when they put the 82nd in Fallujah and Ramadi. If you want the battle of the bulge, great. If you want an insurgency, these elite troops give it to you, too. Northern Ireland with the Paras and Bloody Sunday…I never understood why they didn’t just go out to Fallujah and Ramadi with some Arabic speaking special forces and lots of money and begin hiring these tribal militias like they are today. I had insurgents nbegging me to work to get them contracts with the US army. They might have fought but they would have been busy, too. It might not have stopped the insurgency but it would have given people a sense that there was some intelligent force in charge of their future. Instead, they had General Kimmit saying the dumbest thing night after night on TV and they thought–wow, these Americans are morons. The Abu Ghraib pics just confirmed what they wanted to believe and the rumours they had heard–we did, too, by the way. Why was Abu Ghraib discovered in Washington and not in Iraq by the 2000 reporters hanging out?
no more questions.
back tomorrow.
Depleted Uranium Radioactive Contamination In Iraq: An Overview
by Prof Souad N. Al-Azzawi
“Depleted” is a bit of a euphemism, as TRex correctly notes.
Here is where I confess to a schoolboy crush on Michael Ware, broken nose and all.
*swoon*
Ahem.
Oh, shit. I’m supposed to be in serious M.E. scholar mode tonight, aren’t I?
Strike that swoon from the record, please!
TRex @ 84
Man up, dude.
burnspbesq @ 77
A-10
Warthog uses DU rounds in its gatling gun. They have a half-life of 4.5 billion years. We never cleaned up what we left over there in 1991.burnspbesq @ 82
Just means you can’t make it go “boom” anymore, not that it won’t kill you slowly.
What are the three best books on the occupation?
Are you writing one? If so when can we expect it?
Who is the smartest American writing on Iraq now?
Patrick will you be talking to US soldiers serving in Iraq about what they think about the US congress voting down the Webb Amendment?
Which we know would have insured more down time?
Boo Radley @ 65
An Iraqi friend said to me, laughing–”Oh, the Americans did just what the Iraqis would have done, they winged it.” The lack of prepration was astonishing. But what bothered me more was the way that army played the governments game of lying about the way Iraq was sliding into chaos in the fall of 2003. I used to go out to Fallujaha and Ramadi then and it was crazy. Isnt the army supposed to deal with reality instead of just making it up?
burnspbesq @ 76
Also used in Gulf War I 1991 and was a deep concern by many NGOs in Iraq. It is also suspected of playing a part in the Gulf War Syndrome suffered by many of our troops. It should be outlawed.
A comment about the 363 tons of cash that was shipped to Iraq?
TRex @ 75
TRex, they refuse to acknowledge they’ve used it here on my Isle! The EPA came in and confirmed it’s presence, and, then Dod pooh-poohed it and said it’s a negligible amount! They placed the area off limits, and, stated it doesn’t pose any hazard to the populace…!!!
CTuttle @ 92
Which is of course why they placed the area off limits. These people absolutely amaze me some times.
Okay, gang. Time for me to make the transition from radio station to home. You guys keep playing nice. I’ll be back with y’all shortly.
TRex @ 95
Is Mr. Graham going to hang with us while you are in transit?
I’m sure that there will be a lurking mod available, in case things get really off course, TRex. ;)
Welcome!
I read an article a year or so ago by Patrick Cockburn, who, as I recall, was of the opinion that civil war was being actively fomented.
But who would do this? And why–for profit? For a power grab?
DrDick @ 94
Absolute Fuckery! However, DoD is being sued by numerous orgs(Sierra Club, etal!) so, it’s not the last you’ll hear about it…!!! ;-)
ibid.
Patrick, have you tracked the status of the United Nations Resolution (Security Council Resolution #1546 is the latest, I believe) that provides legal ‘cover,’ under international law, for our presence in Iraq through 12/31/07? If so, are there indications that a renewed “U.N. mandate” for our “help” in Iraq will again be forced through the U.N. Security Council without the approval of (and possibly against the majority wishes of) the Iraqi parliament?
Your firsthand impressions of the skilled and ‘tough’ Sunnis and their ability to manipulate the ‘rubes’ are very compelling and ring true – somehow I don’t think the likes of General Glad-Hander Petraeus stand much of a chance against them.
Your thoughtful insights are very much appreciated.
Patrick, thank you for your presence here at The Lake, and more importantly, your reporting on Iraq.
Can you speak about the government of PM Maliki, the Iraqi Congress, and your sense of their fragility/strength?
Will either last another 6 months? And if so, will either accomplish anything close to “reconciliation”?
Are they even germane to the majority of Iraqis?
Crystal ball us some “likelihoods” about Iraqi “governance” in near term.
Again, thanks for all you do!
Hi, Patrick: two book-related questions. Have you read Rory Stewart’s account of his time in Maysan, which offers a kind of dovetail to your work in its account of the rival Shia interests in the Iraqi south? And have you had the chance to look at Michael Byers’ Intent for a Nation, asserting a new international role for Canada as an honest broker– in part because of the waning of US moral credibility?
And a final, big question: do you think that the push for elections cemented sectarian tensions, given that the best-organised parties represented sectarian interests (backed by militias), and that by supporting one over another, Iraqi voters were forced essentially to pick a side in a fight?
Valley Girl @ 59
Being canadian made a big difference. We weren’t invading so not only did Iraqis not view me through that lens but I didn’t have to view Iraq through the lens of an invader (either pro or against). It has been my experience that the discusion about iraq in the US drowned out iraq to such a degree that no one was really paying attention to what was going on, I mean really happening. In my article in Macleans–hardly a left wing rag as it has been described-I just wanted to point out that the new US policy is very familiar and BOOM, you get this intense anger. How can you have a serious discussion with all these taboos about obvious truths. Three years ago in Harper’s I tried to point out that the insurgency had some cultural/tribal aspects to it–they weren’t all criminals and foreigners–and BOOM, the same thing. Pointing out relatively minor but obvious things in the US is really wearing.
The insurgents I got to know knew me as a Canadian journalist before they told me they were insurgents, some of them even before they joined the fight. They assumed I had some link to the ‘Canadian CIA’ as they called it but they wanted their side of the story to be known.
But I joked to TRex that I didn’t have any ‘dogma’ in the fight and it’s true. The US has been so angry and polarized recently that as a Canadian looking in it’s like–wow, you guys should get together like the Afghans and have a huge Loya Jurga, sort it all out somehow. Iraqis may kill each other but they don’t talk trash about each other nearly as much (until recently).
Patrick,
Another topical question while we’ve got you:
Your read on “the Blackwater Affair” and where the issue of “contract mercenaries” are going to end up for both Iraqis (Govt. and the Street) and US (State Dept. and the Military).
Ta!
Good evening, Mr. Graham, and thank you for your time.
In your opinion, how secure are the US supply lines?
Cool, Jim Neighbors, a long time Hawaii resident was promoted to corporal today, in ceremony held at USMC Base-Kaneohe, and given a sword…! Well Gawllee…!!! 8-)
[Mod Note; let’s keep it on topic while our guest is here. Thanks.]
Thankyou Patrick for being here. Thanks TRex for arranging his visit. Fantastic questions.
Yeah, it’s been rough…we want to put them in prison, and they want to put us in prison camps.
Not a good basis for a reconciliation.
Hpw much influence do you think Israel or the Israeli lobby had at influencing the Bush administrations decision to pre-emptively invade Iraq?
Neo/theo/oil/defense cons? Was one group more responsible than another for the invasion?
Good evening all and welcome Mr. Graham.
Mark Adams @ 63
I hadn’t seen this. I have to say that the Sunni world is so complicated right now, so riven and intense that summing it up by ‘extremists’ is a little too processed. I always found that reporting in Iraq is just sorting through conspiracy theories–the most outrageous ones are often true. It’s so hard if you’re not there on the ground listening to what Iraqis think because they know best. But the place is so so so confusing. That’s what worries me about the Anbar Awakening/Surge. The US Army says they are allies but really they will begin creating a reality for their ‘guests’…if you don’t know who the rube in the room is…A friend of mine used to say under Saddam that the Iraqis didn’t create press releases, you lived them. That still holds true.
TexBetsy @ 111
Howdy, Ma’am!
Patrick, thanks so much for your detailed response to me above, at #105. I really appreciate it that you took the time.
And, for the record, on my own part, I never ever supported invading Iraq. I knew that it would turn into a disaster. But, I did not, back then, foresee how much of a disaster it would be, from every perspective.
Mad Dogs @ 105
Blackwater is really hated by a lot of other military contractors/mercenaries. They have all the toys and are very aggressive. They are also protecting billions in contracts and the State department. They are not going anywhere and the Iraqi government knows it. This fight over them has become a useful tool for the government which is dependent on militias that kill a lot more people than Blackwater. The contracting system is ugly but it’s not going anywhere. When I was last there I really liked the South African dudes who took care of me. Working class guys, making a buck. If they protect you, you like them…
I’m coming in late and apologize if any of this has been covered already.
Last week I was listenting to Air America. I don’t recall who was the host, but they were interviewing Greg Palast. IIRC, it was his claim that:
– The Sunnis to whom Petraeus is now pumping money and arms are the same ones who’ve been calling themselves “Al Qaeda in Mesopotemia.”
– They are essentiall running a protection racket — “Sopranos in Mesopotemia.”
– Bush’s buddy, the Shiek got whacked because he pissed off the other bosses by not sharing to their liking.
Is any of that remotely correct? (BTW, I was driving down the freeway and may not be quoting correctly.)
a special snack this evening in honor of our guest
Good night, CTuttle.
In 1996 Al-Azzawi and her team conducted a comprehensive exploration program through the Environmental Engineering Deptartment in Baghdad University
Talk about collective punishment… It’s not rhetorical.
Valley Girl @ 114
Even those of us who thought it would end up horribly could not imagine how optimistic our view was at the time. This is a generational error, and will be remembered like the Holocaust and America’s Civil War.
Loo Hoo. @ 118
Good Nite? I love you too, Loo Hoo!!! ;-)
TeddySanFran @ 121
Unfortunately I suspect that you’re right.
***gentle reminder to keep comments on topic while our guest is here***
pseudonymous in nc @ 103
No, I haven’t read either book…I doubt with Harper in power we will be seen as an honest broker anymore, though. As far as the elections in Iraq, they gave them the government they have now, basically sectarian regime/regimes. They were incredibly divisive for the reasons you said. It’s interesting that the Sunnis may now have their own militias. Great! The problem started early with the exiles coming into Iraq having organized their parties on sectarian and ethnic lines and then the setting up of the Governing Council which began distributing power/money along those lines.
Suzanne @ 123
Yes’m! Sorry…
innisfree @ 68
Sure, I’m not sure I can keep up with you guys tonight….
TexBetsy @ 118
Pssst Betsy, we Canucks love Blueberry Cheesecake … *g*
Patrick, I almost fell over when I saw that your article had been presented in Maclean’s and have told many people to get the magazine.
Did you face any opposition in the press room to get your story published?
Pat fwiw, it seems to me that the press in the US and Congress is giving Bush a pass by settling for “benchmarks” in Iraq as opposed to looking at the regional instability. My hope has always been that the press and Congress would point out that Bush’s lethal stupidity is destabilizing the entire Middle East. IMVHO, each day we stay, only makes Russia and Iran more dominant.
Thank you for your fine work, Mr. Graham
Above you touched on something I wondered about: That he Iraqi people being shut out of re-building their own country.
Are the Iraqis part of the reconstruction or are most of those jobs going to outside, non-Iraqi companies, as I fear?
Patrick Graham “I always found that reporting in Iraq is just sorting through conspiracy theories–the most outrageous ones are often true.”
My friend Peggy (who was in Iraq 4 years) has shared that many Iraqi people believe that the Golden Mosque in Samarra was blown up by american special forces.
Has anyone touched upon what appears to be leak of Bush/Aznar transcripts from before the war?
Apparently the always lying Bush was honest about his warmongering intentions in private to Spains’ Aznar.
Another fact that the leftwing fever swamp knew all along has now been confirmed.
-GSD
What is your opinion of Juan Cole?
Patrick Graham said:
Pffffft. This is the very thing we as bloggers have been feverishly trying to get people to understand. Shutting off all thought at the mention of certain topics is NOT conducive to solving problems.
wigwam @ 116
–The new allies in Iraq aren’t Al Qaeda, they are the ones who are sick of Al Qaeda. Some of these new alies have killed US soldiers, some of them haven’t. It’s simplistic to call them ‘Tribal’ but the general social structure in Anbar is quite clan-based and various respected leaders can pull together armed fighters who are loyal. A friend of mine from a very large Iraqi tribe claims the leader of his large clan can pull together 500,000 fighters, both Sunni and Shia.
-protection racket makes it sound illegitimate. It’s more like taxation. But the clan-organization/mentality is not far from the gang and they morph into one another.
-Abu Risha’s murder seemed pretty inside. How inside is hard to tell. I did talk to other Sheikhs who were envious of the contracts he was getting but…they didn’t whack him. Outsiders have been very cynical about Abu Risha. Having been out there before I do find this alliance quite amazing and courageous on the part of the Iraqis and the US military. But where it ends up is anybody’s guess.
Patrick Graham @ 116
Patrick, I want to make sure I am reading this comment correctly. I underlined the part that I hope you will clarify- “a useful tool for the government”- I can interpret this in different ways- so, question, which “government”? Not that I’m likely to disagree on any possible option, but I just want to understand your comment. thks.
snoboysdrift @ 132
Juan Cole is a great resource. His sympathies tend to be somewhat close to the Shia side of things, or used to be earlier in the insurgency. he threw around the term Baathist and neo-Baathist at moments that I didn’t hink that appropriate. But his output! He is a bit too interested in the American dialogue for me sometimes. he seems to have the kind of very strong opinions that come from people who haven’t been stuck in the confusion of Iraq. I often wish bloggers–and journalists–would be a bit more tentative in their analysis. it’s hard in print but blogs afford space to be a bit Socratic, to admit what you don’t know. Iraq is opaque and enigmatic and murky and…
Once again, a pleasure, Mr. Graham.
Good night, everyone. The best of all possible tomorrows to you.
Thank you Patrick for your important reporting and for coming to FDL to answer questions. Trex thank you for setting this up..learned a great deal
recent article about Condi’s interference into the investigation of Blackwater.
http://www.reuters.com/article…..2620070925
Mr. Graham, do you have plans to return to Iraq?
Valley Girl @ 135
I man the Iraqi government. Iraqis have been complaining about military contractors for years. Just as the Maliki government comes under a lot of criticism they make a big deal of Blackwater. That’s a good thing–the accountability of these guys is non-existent and they shoot like crazy. But it’s also useful, politically. Iraq has bigger problems at the moment, I think. But the Blackwater incident is symptomatic of the mad kind of firepower unleashed on Iraqis from all sides.
Patrick, what part of Canada do you hail from? I was born in Edmonton…!!!
Night all, time for me to get my beauty sleep. Thanks for all your input, Patrick. It has been very informative.
Suzanne @ 139
I’m always planning to go but I keep putting it off…
Hello everyone, good times….
Hi Patrick!, I have got on this party a bit late if you have answered this questions please refer me….
What I am concerned about is the Iraq refugee situation and what exactly is the percentage of the population currently being given safe haven in neighboring countries.
I heard that Syria was going to severely limit entrance to incoming Iraq refugees recently and am concerned about current humanitarian efforts regarding vulnerable civilian Iraq populations .
Also, has anyone taken a perspective on these neighboring countries’ ability to sustain the Iraq refugee population currently within their borders? Are they at the breaking point? What currently is being done to compensate these countries to enable them to help these Iraq refugees?
Thanks so much for your time and the Lake for being a gracious host…..
Sleep well Dr D.
Patrick Graham @ 143
If it is not to personal, may I ask why? Is it due to the conditions on the ground, how dangerous, that you could be thought of as an American? I guess I’m asking if it is due to personal reasons or the reality of today’s Iraq.
Patrick Graham @ 143
I don’t fault you one iota for that…!!! ;-)
Kathleen @ 130
You hear that a lot. Iraqis believe that the US wants to stay in Iraq and is using the divisions to keep themselves there. Really smart plugged in people have told me this. I can’t quite get my head around the logic but I’m not Iraqi.
Okay, about ten minutes left with Mr. Graham, everybody! (Unless he decides to stay up late…)
Me, I want to know, Patrick, what was the single most heart-freezingly, poop-yourself-terrifying moment that you’ve had in Iraq?
ticktock @ 144
I mentioned earlier that I’ve only visited Jordan and talked to friends in Syria. It’s an enormos problem, 2 million refugees and another 2 million displaced. I’ll be honest, I find it hard to get my head around it. Jordan is very tough on Iraqis which must be painful for them and yet they are amazingly generous, too, when you think of how precarious a position it puts the Jordanians in. I’m impressed by the amount of people that Syria and Jordan have taken in. But the really important thing is to get them back. I agree with Bernard Kouchner, get them home. If they stay a few more years…the world will lose a country. Iraq will not be put together again.
Patrick,
thank you for your reply at #141.
That is really fascinating (yeah, that is a very poor word under the circumstances). FDL and other blogs have posted about Blackwater, US investigations of late into Blackwater, etc. etc. But, what you have said is the first I have ever read that even indicated a specific pro/con from the view of the Iraqi “government”. As a disclaimer, I have to say that I don’t read every thing. But, I must say that your comment on this is MOST interesting!
Mr. Graham, thank you so very much tonight for coming to the Lake and answering our questions.
I hope you will visit us again.
Thanks Patrick and TRex.
Interesting night.
Great article, great blogint tonight.
Patrick do you think the Bush administration will pre-emptively attack Iran?
Mr. Graham,
As a Canadain, may I say “Thank you.”
With respect and gratitude,
Heather
that would be Canadian
sorry about that,
Heather
Patrick Graham @ 151
I firmly believe this was the plan..easier to control… expand the realm
Again…Good Times….
Thanks so much for your response Mr. Graham….
Good night to my fine feathered friends here at the Lake, time to fly…..
Patrick Graham @ 150
But, ultimately it could also destabilise the host countries! I fear more for Syria, yet, Jordan is susceptible too!
Patrick, Thank you for coming to FDL Late Nite, and answering our manifold questions. It really has been an unusual experience, in the absolute BEST of ways. We get to talk to politicians (sometimes). etc. But, really, I’m not sure I ever remember having had the experience of being able to “chat” with someone like yourself, who has such special knowledge of life in Iraq now.
Thank you again, and thank you also TRex, for making this happen.
Sleep well ticktock.
Great guest tonight TRex! Patrick, if you could talk about any musical experiences you had in Iraq with local musicians I’d love to hear about that.
TRex @ 149
Iraq has a bandwidth of fear I didn’t know existed. I should say that compared to my Iraqi friends, my experiences were pretty touristic. And a lot of soldiers have gone through a wild insanity. Not to mention the guys fighting the US Army who have incredible balls. Facing down those tanks and airplanes is just…crazy. I got stuck in downtown Baghdad in a washroom with a dozen Iraqis as the US bombed the buildings around us the night of Shock and Awe. That was off the radar for me. I hitch-hiked around Fallujah when the Marines were attacking it in April, 2004. That was dumb and terrifying. I managed to have my life saved by an insurgent, some marines and a guy who still a close Iraqi friend, all in a few hours. Later, I went back into Fallujah as a friend of mine’s sick brother, with fake Iraqi ID. That was super dumb, and I did a pretty good version of a brain aneurism-affected fool during an interogation by a really unfreindly Selafist. I have to say that hanging out with these Iraqi insurgent fighters in 2003 and 2004 made me really nervous in a slow, creepy way. I wasn’t sure if I was going to be caught by the US army or betray them accidently. That kind of low level, constant fear I found really grating.
Yeah, Thanks Patrick, Thanks TRex!
My pleasure. It has been an honor.
I spoke with Patrick earlier and he said that he will be going back and trying to answer any questions that he missed at a later time. I invited him to contribute a post. It looks like you guys might like that idea.
Thank you, Patrick. If you’d like to join us, we’ll be having A Completely Fluffy Thread upstairs in a matter of minutes.
New thread upstairs. I have been lurking gratefully. Thank you so much Patrick. I hope you will visit again.
Suzanne @ 146
I admire the journalists who have been there the last few years. 2006 sounded insane. But imprisoning,too. A lot of time inside a compound. And as a freelance journalist, it’s hard to get someone to pay for you to embed. No one is interested in embedding stories. It’s sad, really. And depressing. There is nothing worse than getting shot at and not getting paid for it–or getting published.
CTuttle @ 141
Toronto…though sometimes I lie and say cape Breton.
U.S. accused of failing ill 1991 Gulf War veterans
Bush legacy and all…
Patrick Graham @ 148
I’m not Iraqi either, but I have to agree that such an analysis sure looks like the reality of the situation from here, as well. That $20 trillion of untapped Iraqi oil wealth is what lies just beneath the surface of it all (and the leaders of Israel know that too). The American Congress gives not one good damn about the fate of the Iraqi people as a whole, aside and apart from a “vital” American “national security” interest of an overwhelmingly-compelling (i.e., wealth-enhancing) sort. Our Congress mostly doesn’t give a damn about the fate and the future of the American people, so you can be damn sure that the Iraqi people barely register at all with most of our legislators (certainly not enough to be invited to our Congress to testify about their future hopes and plans for, not to mention the current realities of, their sovereign nation).
Many, many thanks, Patrick, for your labors here this evening and for so willingly sharing your knowledge of the complicated Iraqi reality with the American people. Travel safely.
Was trying to read along as this was unfolding but had multiple interruptions so didn’t get to comment before this, but I want to say how absolutely refreshing it is to visit with someone who is not only a fountain of knowledge but also refrains from drawing conclusions where he’s not sure. This was pure journalistic best. Thank you Patrick. :)
Well said pow wow at 10:15, blood for oil.
Patrick – thank you for so much valuable information and for your good humour in the face of the FDL question time!
I’ll certainly be looking forward to reading more of your work – including hopefully here!
Valley Girl @ 152
Obviously, one of the things you don’t read is my blog, where a week ago I pointed out the similarity between the Blackwater and MoveOn ad controversies. ;-)
Kathleen @ 131
That site has been added this year to the World Heritage List.
Patrick Graham @ 164
Damn intense. We turned the Iraqi peoples lives into a complete nightmare via the invasion. Crimes against Humanity, and the majority of Americans sat idly by.
How are the majority of Americans any different than those who sat by knowing (even if it was off in the distance somewhere) that millions of Jews, Poles, Gypsies, handicapped, gays were being brutally murdered by Hitlers regime?
Trex my friend Peggy is going back soon. If Patrick would like me to put him in touch with her I certainly will.