Late Late Nite FDL: A RiddleBy: TRex Monday September 24, 2007 10:33 pm |
I made it up myself. Ready?
Q. What’s the difference between George Bush and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad?
A. One is a super-scary totalitarian religious fundamentalist nutjob and the other…has a really nasty beard*.
(*And I don’t mean Laura.)
(Bushadinejad submitted via email from PPP)
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ZED?
TREX!
Zed?
Exactly right, TRex.
Zed!
I crack myself up.
Table manners.
CTuttle @ 5
Whew, some quick draw mcgraws tonite…!!!
Well, they both have beards, just different beards. :)
Going to head to bed…. Miss Dog has left the room and I can have the bed to myself [ahhhhh] as she takes her half right out of the middle
See ya tomorrow…. {{{{{{{{{{{TRex}}}}}}}}}} AND {{{{{{{{{{{FDL}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
Hmmm. Which one’s which? lol
Do you know the difference between Dick Cheney and Slobodan Milosevic?
Nice joke. I smiled.
katymine @ 10
Good night, katymine. Enjoy the extra bed space while you can claim it!
pretty much what I what thinking. One a mirror of the other.
Thought it was funny, earlier in the morning on MSM, some ditzy talking head compared Ahmadinejad’s status in iran to that of Dubya’s.
((((( TRex )))))
I caught up downstairs just in time to be EPU’d … *g* … how y’all doin’ ?
HA! Laura the beard ya think?
*chuckle*
burnspbesq @ 12
The hair?
burnspbesq @ 12
Milosevic may be alive?
Best wishes Katymine
katymine @ 10
Nite, Katy!!!
burnspbesq @ 12
Ones dead, the other Serbian.
Good night, sweet katymine.
God bless you.
Petrocelli @ 16
Stranger, what’s a brewing?!!!
Oliver Stone said it perfectly in his letter to the Iranians:
“I wish the Iranian people well, and only hope their experience with an inept, rigid ideologue president goes better than ours.”
-GSD
smapdi @ 23
oh!
Smapdi takes the round!
What can be said? Demagogues are all alike.They’ll always be a little bit gogue but mostly demi.
TRex @ 20
Dammit TRex, if you keep hitting ‘em outta da park like this, the Braves are gonna sign you up !
TRex @ 20
That’s very good, but I don’t think it’s the answer I was looking for.
I think you were supposed to say “nooooo ….,” and I was supposed to say “neither do I.”
Or, “one got accepted and the other is on the waiting list.”
TRex @ 6
and the rest of us too.
howdy trex! and thanks for the laugh.
burnspbesq @ 12
One is an evil megalomaniac intent on wiping out his Muslim enemies, the other is dead.
Nice riddle.
I love it when people make up riddles. Even when they are really good riddles, it still reminds me of eighth grade, in a good way.
Thanks, TRex.
CTuttle @ 25
I greeted ya in the last thread, in EPU-land … been busy with work and family commitments … trying to commit the whole lot o’ them … *g*
TeddySanFran @ 33
You’re entirely welcome.
*smooch*
persiflage @ 31
G’day! But, it still could apply to either one…!!! 8-)
persiflage @ 31
Persi hits a six!
TRex @ 35
**giggle**
shrub, Iran-shrub – twinsies with nukes (well, at least one of ‘em has nukes)
…each as good as the other for a good ole-fashioned brush fire…
just in case I’m the only one awake in the DC area, let me tell you folks that there are some military planes that have been circling noisily around in the sky for about the last 30 minutes.
God knows what they’re up to, but I hope it’s not nookyuler.
If it is…..well, ya heard it HERE. Please, make a movie about me or something.
burnspbesq @ 12
One hides from the U.S. Military and one hides behind the U.S. Military !
Petrocelli @ 34
Et Tu? 707!
Y’know — there’s an awful symmetry if Ahmedinejad was one of the hostage-takers, and Shrub’s consigliere James Baker III was the negotiator keeping them captive until St Ronnie’s inaugural day.
A truly awful symmetry.
oddmommy @ 40
well, at least we could probably count on shrub not nuking the city he’s currently in…
all i can say is, i really can’t wait until Ahmadinejad is safely back in teheran.
because anything that might “happen” to him until then will wind up giving the bushites all the casus bellis they want.
Oldmommy, nothing breaking in the news dept.
As of yet.
-GSD
oddmommy @ 40
Cool! A whole new slate of congress critters and supremes…!!!
dmg @ 45
You mean like a “regrettable malfunction” during a New York Air National Guard “training exercise” right about the time his 747 climbs out of JFK?
No tinfoil hat here. Just a headband.
GSD @ 46
Odd, not Old, GSD, duck!!!
Thanks Teddy. Just the image I want in my head at 1 AM. evil symmetry
oddmommy @ 40
What kind of military planes? Is it the whoosh and roar of fighter jets or the low drone of big cargo planes?
dmg @ 45
I was surprised Shrub didn’t bomb Tehran after the Columbia Q&A. Certainly was enough provocation. /s
Incidentally, Secretary Rice is weighing more sanctions against Iran.
Whoof.
Must be that concrete dust in my eyes.
So sorry.
-GSD
really, this is some creepy ass shit….used to happen after 9/11.
oh well, probably just a bunch of Top Guns out joyriding…..but I wish they’d put the fuckin mufflers on already.
oddmommy @ 40
oddly, walking across midtown, i was just thinking about “Failsafe” this afternoon.
CTuttle @ 36
G’day mate. I did consider that, was going to say “one’s under the ground” but, as they keep Dick in a bunker, that wouldn’t have worked either.
Why is it that people in media and political office think it is appropriate to treat the president of Iran like the 19th hijacker or something?
oddmommy @ 54
Maybe it is Bush and Condi taking their new propeller hats out for a spin.
-GSD
Larry Hagman looks just like my dad in that movie.
TeddySanFran @ 52
and soon, possibly tomorrow, kyl/lieberman amendment on iran will come up for a vote. bah.
and will somebody please tell me wtf columbia was doing having ahmadinejad over for a chat? the university prez actually winds up making that nutbag look good.
David Olsen @ 57
Because America has become a pack of childish, self righteous assholes with no regard for anyone else on the planet.
-GSD
burnspbesq @ 37
Why thankyew Burns! Darn, just as I actually gather a compliment, I gotta go. Following Suzanne’s lead I’m off ta get my hair chopped off.
Every time I think about Bush and Ahmadinejad, I remember that episode of “Star Trek” with Frank Gorshin playing the two half-white, half-black faced guys …
David Olsen @ 57
no matter what we think of iran’s current president… he represents a people who’s reaction to 911 was to spontaneously vigil for the victims. we owe them some respect.
TRex @ 51
Guess it’s more like a low drone. But whatever they are they are fucking CIRCLING the sky over these innocent Virginia suburbs.
Those sound like cargo planes, which probably means a unit is shipping out tonight from one of the bases around there. Those big C-130’s aren’t fast or graceful, but they’ll haul a whole lot of shit a really long way.
burnspbesq @ 64
Every time I see a conflict, whether between two people or two ideologies, I remember that episode.
dmg @ 60
It started out as a good idea, but then Columbia took a huge amount of heat for it, and the best idea the president could come up with to deflect all the criticism was to be an absolute asshole in his introduction — to the point that A*PAC actually sent it to its members in an email.
~~~ModNote: Edited for content to clear filters.~~~
On a brighter note, it could be the sound of a platoon coming home.
GSD @ 46
Dood, those are laugh lines …
(runs into bomb shelter)
GSD @ 62
I find it disgusting when Iran and Iraq had nothing to do with 911, yet, they’re the principal beneficiaries of Shrub’s malevolence! The media has us so brainwashed the Lake has bought into the hype! I did like one question asked of Ahminejad, what about the Baha’is and gays’ treatment in Iran…! I’m a Baha’i, folks, and we’ve been summarily rounded up and executed by the Iranians since ‘79!!! 8-(
persiflage @ 63
Bye, Persi!!!
oddmommy @ 54
We didn’t hear any tonight, but we were hearing them for the past several nights. A friend of mine who works at the Pentagon said they’re F-16s out of Andrews AFB (flying circuits, maybe? I don’t remember exactly what he said, and we were at a bachelor party, so I didn’t get a chance to discuss it at length. :-)
Still creeps me out, too.
night all. eyes having trouble staying open.
selise @ 65
If you talk to the Persians, you will hear that Bush’s misadventure in Iraq has made Mahmoud
more powerful and put them at a disadvantage … and Bush claims to be their friend …
TRex @ 69
Maybe if we think and wish and hope and pray it might come true …
actually, i don’t think i’m submitting to brainwashing when i say i’m no fan of someone who makes the statements he does concerning israel and speaks at a conference of holocaust deniers.
but that’s just me.
TexBetsy @ 74
Sleep well, Ma’am!!!
selise @ 65
We had some nice vigils after 9/11 too. Then we reelected shrub. I doubt the people doing the vigilizing were Iran-shrub’s supporters… nor were most of those who honored the dead in New York City. shrub and Iran-shrub’s base were too busy cowering in some hole somewhere.
TexBetsy @ 74
Goodnight, Betsy.
dmg @ 60
Free speech, baby. It’s not always April Fresh™, but it’s part of any healthy democracy. I’m really proud of Columbia for having the stones to bring him in. This is the problem with American thinking these days, “We can’t talk to them, they’re EEEEEEEEEE-vil!!”
Never mind that when you drag the bogeyman out into the light, he’s just an unkempt little whack job in a wrinkled blazer. This is the whole problem with Bush foreign policy. They don’t do nuance. But dealing with the Middle East is incredibly complex.
Putting the best minds in the Bush administration to work on foreign policy is still like trying to thread a needle wearing boxing gloves.
TexBetsy @ 74
Wishing you pain- free sleep, Betsy !
Petrocelli @ 75
makes sense… it’s not unusual that when people feel threatened, they will rally ’round a demagogue (at least that’s what recent history here in the usa has taught me).
People laughed in Ahmadinejad’s face today. You heard that, right? When he said there are no homosexuals in Iran, the whole crowd just spontaneously guffawed. Even his supporters there couldn’t keep a straight face.
dmg @ 77
Sorry, but many have spouted the MSM’s TP’s and I find it disheartening, I’m certainly no defender of him, yet, I see no reason to deny him access to Ground Zero or Columbia University!!!
selise @ 65
More than that, he comes from a culture that could produce an Omar Kayyam, a Rumi, a Hafez. We should be big enough to extend basic courtesy , treat a head of state with dignity, allow him to make a graceful gesture and to say his piece.
I think I’m going to grab my iPod, my copy of Charlie Savage’s book, and a bottle of water and head off to bed.
Goodnight, everyone.
“Keep hope alive.”
TREX!!!!!!
Oops, sorry! Just got here!
Night, burnsy.
TRex @ 84
yes, it was great.
burnspbesq @ 87
Amen! Nite, Burns!!!
TRex @ 81
would that it were so. me, i’m thinking that an ivy league institution has just conferred acceptance into the mainstream of scholarly review the concept of holocaust denial.
PLUS, lee bollinger acted so badly that he made ahmadinejad look like the civil one.
Speaking of the brightside, the monks in Burma seem to be ok so far. (painting meticulous mandala on floor with sand for good luck)
burnspbesq @ 88
G’nite dude … I’m off as well, gotta finish this book in time for the Bob Marley Fest, right CT ?!! *g*
G’nite all !
burnspbesq @ 87
the book is very good. VERY good.
In conversations and speeches on TV, he always comes across as profoundly polite, reasonable, and respectful, in a way that George W. Bush never does.
I don’t know if the charges dealing with anti-semitism and lack of freedom in his country have a great deal to do with things such as history and culture that are outside of his control.
Does he do anything to hurt Jewish people? I don’t feel that the government of Israel deserves great respect or tolerance, considering its massive and immoral oppression of the Palestinian people.
George W. Bush, however, I know to actively work every day to harm people. He might as well drive in his limo to the projects every day so he can personally spit in the faces of the poor.
I heard a quote from Bush about the Ahmadinejad visit on the radio earlier that I found pretty amusing, but I haven’t been able to find it transcribed anywhere yet. Basically, it sounded like he hadn’t made up his mind whether to jump in with the right-wing attack squad or talk about our glorious freedoms, so he said something like: “This is a demonstration of the great freedom of speech we have in this country. I don’t know if I agree with it, but…”
I wish I could find the exact wording, because it came out sounding like Bush was saying he didn’t agree with that whole freedom of speech business — a bit of unintentional honesty!
shrub: OBL attacked us on 9/11, Afghanistan must be destroyed
Iran-shrub: Israel is an insult to Islam, it must be destroyed
shrub: Saddam attacked us on 9/11 and he has nukes, Iraq must be destroyed
Iran-shrub: Gays are an insult to Islam, they must be persecuted
shrub: Gays are an insult to Christianity; they must be persecuted
Iran-shrub: the Holocaust never occurred
shrub: Iran-shrub attacked us on 9/11 or would have had he bothered to think about it and they have nukes, Iran must be destroyed
…OK, it’s kinda hard to see who has the moral highground when they’re both standing knee-deep in a toxic swamp
at the same time that ahmadinejad was at columbia today, lieberman and kyl were on the senate floor ranting about how everyone should support their anti-iranian amendment.
now, after that, how can i condemn iranians for having an apparently crazy person in their goverment:?
Petrocelli @ 94
Nite, Mi Amigo!!!
dmg @ 77
I am no expert. However I do think Juan Cole is a balanced source and he puts quite a few “interpretations” in their proper false light, fwiw..
And hey dmg, good to see you..)
selise @ 100
I think we should send Lieberman to make a speech at Tehran University.
He could tell them we don’t have any gays in the United States–at least, in the Republican Party.
Anon @ 96
interesting. intentionally or otherwise, the construct here would cast someone who disdains ahmadinejad as a supporter of bush.
i suppose it’s too far a stretch to have contempt for both of them.
it’s not my intention to get into a dispute. Anon concedes he isn’t coming from the same place i am where perspective on th iranian president’s relentless hatemongering of israel — no different in feeding his base than bush is in feeding his — is concerned. but fdl used to be able to handle a bit of disagreement.
waving my wings.
good evening, all.
TRex @ 84
When he said that, I thought he was being sarcastic at first, but no. He’s as delusional as Bush and the righties who swear the earth is only 6,000 years old.
tip o the cap to you, eureka, on the way out.
Or send Bush, it would be comedy gold. Bush can’t even manage to hold an unstaged press conference in the United States let alone in the Middle East. At least Ahmadinejad has some intelligence.
TheOtherWA @ 104
The look on his face, while being laughed at, was priceless. Ranked right up there with dubya.
What’s amazing to me is that those two groups of people who have so much in common will cheerfully send each other to their graves without ever realizing that they are exactly alike. It must put some right wingers in a weird position to hear Ahmadinejad run down the gays and have to say, “See? Here in America, gays are cool! Cos we’re free! I love gays, except…huh, well, maybe Mahmoud has a point there…”
James Dobson, Ayatollah al-Sistani, really, what’s the effing difference?
“Riddle me this, Bat(sh*tcrazy)man”
tbsa @ 106
He’d have a brain aneurism or something.
twȝk @ 111
In that case, it might be a better idea than I had imagined.
tbsa @ 111
it’d be must see tv to say the least!
TRex @ 109
only one of ‘em is best friends forever with Blackwater CEO Erik Prince
Bush would never, ever, ever face an Iranian audience. You have to give Ahmadinnerjacket that. He came and stood face to face with an American audience. Bush would never even face an all-Canadian audience.
TRex, your funny was, well, funny. I did make this comment earlier..)
Eureka Springs @ 102
Excellent article, ES! That’s precisely the way I see it, the drum beats need to be silenced!!!
Blub @ 113
al-Dobson and the Prince
I’ve only heard radio coverage. Can you describe the look to me?
yeah, that Cole article is good.
A freaking men, CT, Amen..
TRex @ 115
or an All-American audience that hadn’t been fully screened by his Regency U/Blackwater combi-clones.
TRex @ 115
As the ‘08 election draws near bush won’t even be able to have a presser with the republics.
TRex @ 118
It was kind of a dumb blank drawn into, mouth slightly a gap, not understanding the reaction.
tbsa @ 123
Shoot, all the Repug Candies have told him to stay away, far away…!!! ;-)
The look on his face was, surprised. I don’t think many people disagree with him to his face, and they certainly don’t laugh at him. Maybe that’s why he kept repeating it, to prove he was being serious.
Add a bit of food falling out of the mouth and that’s our Dubya, alright.
tbsa @ 123
I’d like to see him stand up in front of the White House press pool one of these days and have every one of his statements responded to the way the Columbia University audience reacted to the Iran dude’s statement about no homosexuals in his country.
dmg @ 92
As an Ivy graduate, I can assure you that allowing someone to speak, especially a politician, does not make any statement about scholarly acceptance. He was speaking to Columbia, not for Columbia. Scholarly acceptance comes from being published, being on the faculty, not giving a speech.
I agree that Bollinger would have been better off criticizing the speech rather than pre-emptively criticizing the man.
TRex @ 126
Zing!
Perhaps a shiny bubble of drool on the chin.
neurophius @ 127
I hope the SS don’t allow him to carry a firearm once he is out of office.
Well, my son wants to jump online for a bit, and, pt. 2 of ‘The War’ is on, so, I shall bid another fond adieu to the Lake! Aloha Oe!!!
TRex @ 85
we should recruit gay iranians.
we need the translators.
oh, yeah, that’s right …
“Don’t ask; Do tell.”
My impression of Amahdinejad is that he’s not too bright. I tend to think this is partly because someone else is pulling his strings. Have you noticed how much smarter many of the ex-bushies seem once they have loosed their strings?
Do you suppose that they let him carry his own gun, now?
He’s probably like Barney Fife. They give him ONE bullet and make him keep it in his pocket.
Alright, gang, my clock is punched. Time to hit the rack.
TRex @ 115
I don’t even think there’s any circumstances under which shrub would face a general audience at Columbia, like Iran-shrub did. If they brought him in as a commencement speaker there, students would block Broadway, a third of ‘em would boycott the ceremony and another third would sack it.
TRex @ 130
and that unfocused look to the eye.
neurophius @ 128
I don’t even understand why they still show up. It’s a joke really.
Good night, everyone. Gotta be rested to deal with all of tomorrow’s foolishness, whatever it will be. Sueños dulces.
I learned something interesting this evening. The ongoing trials into corruption of the Alaska Legislature by the local oil service company VECO, whose CEO and CFO are now about to enter jail along with about 20% of what was the 2006 GOP legislative majority, are coming up with all sorts of goodies.
The incredible largesse of VECO toward GOP pols was always a known fact here, but the extent isn’t even fully realized yet. But it has already become apparent that if you take VECO out of the Alaska political donation equation for in-state races, Democratic candidates actually raise significantly more money for their campaigns than do the GOP candidates. Interesting.
David Olsen @ 135
He’s a working class bloke.. dad’s a blacksmith I think…. fought in their revolution, and maybe has an engineering degree or two. I read somewhere that Oliver Stone is making a movie of his life, with his blessing
TRex @ 135
lol, good night, TRex
smapdi @ 94
amen.
om ah ra pa tsa na dhi
Ed*ard Teller @ 141
More details please. You know this is the only source of my information.
Bollinger was just protecting his own personal finacial assets from this:
Executive Order on Terrorist Financing
It’s titled “Financing” but includes any and all “support” so if Bollinger in any way could be considered “helping out” Ahmadinejad, he could have his Beamer seized.
Amazingly, Bush himself told Fox News Channel that if Bollinger considers Ahmadinejad’s visit an educational experience for Columbia students, “I guess it’s OK with me.”
Everyone in the MSM has been vilifying Columbia for the invitation, but BUSH is “ok” with it.
Go figure.
BigMitch @ 145
It came from talks today with some people keeping very detailed track. I’m involved in an analysis of what goes to whom from where…
doctordawg @ 146
Boosh is really adrift without Uncle KKKarl at his side to
pull his stringstell him what to think.doctordawg @ 146
Is this true? The picture I got was of the Iranian president being rediculous, and lots of individuals protesting, but the MSM doesn’t usually have a problem with free speech. Of course, the MSM I watch is KO.
doctordawg @ 146
I don’t know why we think what Bollinger did was that bad… he was intro’ing a guy who denies the Holocaust, organized an international Holocaust-deniers conference, to which he invited US Christian fundie nutjobs and Klan leaders among other haters, and calls for the annihilation of another country just because he doesn’t like their religion. I’m sorry, but Bollinger was right to confront him.. and I hope that he has the guts to do the same to shrub, although it’s incredibly unlikely we’ll ever get to find out whether or would or not, since shrub would never show up there.
I agree with Blub.
Tom Friedman renounces F.U.s on Colbert report.
Ed*ard Teller @ 140
Not too surprising but still a promising observation!
neurophius @ 147
I think the plan was exposed on Olbermann this evening.. Bush takes the path of lessor resistance tomorrow at the UN and Cheney gives a brutally evil Iran speech to the base.
selise @ 100
Per http://www.tinyrevolution.com/…..01747.html the Lieberman-Kyl amend reads (in part):
Which comes pretty close to a declaration of war.
I watched parts of Amenanutjob’s speech. It was about as bad as a GOP Presidential debate. Bollinger said some good things, but sullied them with his hostility. Amenanutjob’s explanation of science was as pathetic as anything the Soviet geneticist Lysenko or the GOP miracle worker-by-video Bill Frist has ever said.
He had a chance to apologize for the overall impact of his pathetic attempts at deligitimizing extensive and highly accurate historical work, and blew it, leading me to finally accept that in that regard he’s a dangerous person. His statements about the predicament of the Palestinian people had more resonance, but – like Bollinger – he had already completely lost me. Fortunately, he’s only a figurehead politician, with very little influence over the policies of the Iranian government.
BigMitch @ 152
between hysterical giggles. What did Colbert put in that guy’s refresher?
Ed*ard Teller @ 157
I had the same thought.
BigMitch @ 149
Chris Matthews mostly complaining about the Colombia president being rude to Ahmidinnerjacket.
Mitch, are you a z*onist?
brb, gonna grab a coffee
~~~ModNote: Edited for content to clear filters.~~~
Anti=Semite pat Buchanan saying Ahminjad did a good job.
Redshift @ 129
I was shocked when I saw that on TV tonight. Extremely lacking in class.
TRex @ 115
Bush would not face the audience the Iranian President faced today. Also, he would have had the President of Columbia University renditioned for that introduction.
TeddySanFran @ 162
rendered
BigMitch @ 161
I’m not sure your use of that term in this case is at all accurate. Best source on that is now out of print, William Safire’s great book, Before the Fall: An Inside View of the Pre-Watergate White House, in which he spends a chapter on Nixon’s anti-Semitism. He stuck up for Buchanan then – they worked together a lot. Why do you feel that way about Buchanan? I don’t like him at all.
TeddySanFran @ 163
I wouldn’t count on that.. frankly, I don’t believe shrub would ever have made it to a Columbia podium.. the protest would’ve been that bad. Secret Service would’ve pulled him out and the speech would’ve been cancelled. It would’ve been worse than Stanford ‘05, when they had to change the speech location to a rethug’s private estate ’cause they couldn’t get him to the venue, past the protestors
wigwam @ 161
Yeah, personal attacks is unbecoming of an academic.
Ed*ard Teller @ 164
William F. Buckley called him an anti-Semite, and his word (on this issue only) is good enough for me.
BigMitch @ 163
rendered reconditioned!
BigMitch @ 168
Buckley’s been accused of the same, if I recall correctly
BigMitch @ 168
Now that’s authoritative. Did you get a chance to pitch the sports-and-other-things-blogging trip to Yossi?
Yeah. I think I too will accept William F Buckley’s word on just this.
/s
C’mon, Mitch, how can you accept his word on the Buchanan accusation but on nothing else?
In Buckley’s important essay on the subject (1991) he admits to anti-Semitic acts in his youth. He does so with great regret. He is a staunch defender of Israel, and not because he wants Jews gathered there for the apocolypse.
I’m going to bed now. Goodnite, all.
mitch – two links, please – Buchanan on the Iranian president, and Buckley on Buchanan.
TeddySanFran @ 171
I might also accept a vocabulary lesson from him. But I have been accused of being a right wing troll, and “facts is” I despise the man. Notwithstanding this, his case against Buchanan was pretty durn compelling.
BigMitch @ 173
But how can you believe his defense of Israel, since you believe him only on the issue of Buchanan’s anti-semitism? Since his word is only good on that issue, might it be that he does in fact want Jews gathered in Israel for the apocalypse?
now this is funny.., shrub’s now so despised that even Jessica Simpson snubbed him. Who would’ve known she actually knows what a president is?
Buchanan on Hardball two minutes ago.
Find 1991 essay by Wm F. B. on “Anti-Semitism” in his shmatah.
____________
Notes for Yiddishly challenged:
Shmatah = rag
TeddySanFran @ 176
My support of Israel is not based on his. I think you are pulling my leg, and I admit you got me.
BigMitch @ 179
Here’s a report on that article: http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/peo…..-1991.html
Judge for yourself whether Buckley made his case against Buchanan.
wigwam @ 180
I did judge for myself when the article came out. I called Buchanan an anti-Semite.
I’v just read DKos’s transcript of Buchanan’s remarks earlier this evening about the CU speech, and Buchanan’s essay, penned earlier today and before the speech, regarding the President of Iran’s NYC UN visit. I don’t find either of Buchanan’s sets of statements about this to be inaccurate or offensive. Rather, they border toward the sane end of the things he says.
I do find it highly offensive that BigMitch feels he can call a person anti-Semitic so casually. As one who has been through that experience, your flipancy about this, BM, feels more than a little bit creepy.
Mitch,
Is Wigwam’s link the Buckley reference to which you refer? If so, how do you feel about this statement of Buchanan’s then:
Buckley continued, “Pat Buchanan went on to write that if we went to war, the fighting would be done by ‘kids with names like McAllister, Murphy, Gonzales, and Leroy Brown.’ There is no way to read that sentence without concluding that Pat Buchanan was suggesting that American Jews manage to avoid personal military exposure even while advancing military policies they (uniquely?) engender.”
Buckley says that in the ensuing controversy, “Buchanan told a reporter from Time magazine, ‘I don’t retract a single word.’”
Sorry if you are offended. I have grounds which I have cited. I have never accused any of the people here who disagree with me with anti-Semitism. What the fuck gives you the right to say that I am being flippant? Was Wm F. Buckley flippant, too?
I didn’t criticize Buchanan’s comments. I posted what I did as soon as he started speaking about Ahminajad’s speech. Turns out he said that it helped Ahminajad’s cause.
You need to step back and think about what you are saying.
Ed*ard Teller @ 183
I read the original article, and agreed with the conclusion. I am not going to take apart each element of the charge. Buckley violated the 11th commandment to criticize Buchanan.
BigMitch @ 182
This article implies that Buckley’s case boils down to this:
This is specifically a very hot issue right now, given that Mearsheimer and Walt’s book The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy is about number ten on the NYT best seller list. Their claim is exactly that the influence of the lobby is not “undue” but rather often harmful to the interests of the United States and sometimes to the intersts of Israel itself.
People like anon at 97 post outrageous shit here and you are not offended, but if I agree with a scholar of the American conservative movement who says that one of their leading figures is an anti-Semite, ET is offended. Fuck that!
BigMitch @ 185
No, Buckley was trying to keep from happening then what is happening now. – open discussion of outside influences on American Foreign policy. Many of the statements Buchanan made on this issue were correct, and have been borne out by others willing to come forward and criticize the sorry direction over-reliance on rightwing Israeli governments and corrupt Saudi royals have taken our country over the past 25-plus years.
wigwam @ 186
this is about Patrick Buchanan not A*PAC.
~~~ModNote: Edited for content to clear filters.~~~
wigwam @ 186
Is the Israel Lobby representative of the faction in power in Israel currently or is more like the 75% here in the States that don’t support the neocons?
ET @ 188
These are the words of someone who is not merely wrong, but out of touch with reality. If you think that this country is over-reliant on Israel, or even that it is reliant on Israel, you have gone out of the bounds of rational debate.
I don’t know why you have come to this conclusion. Some say anti-semitism is a mental disease, and I suppose there is a syndrome that is similar, but without the focussed malice.
As an example of the accuracy of Buchanan’s statement I cited above, Buchanan went on to write that if we went to war, the fighting would be done by ‘kids with names like McAllister, Murphy, Gonzales, and Leroy Brown…
percentage of the US Armed forces who are American Jews – 0.2%
percentage of Israeli Armed forces who are American Jews – 11.2%
Comparisons like this might be unfair to the extent that the Christian bible bangers in our armed forces target Jews in our military for harrassment, as evidenced by depositions taken in the USAF Academy investigations and other incidents, but Buchanan appears to have been accurate.
too late in the evening to get into a discussion of A*PAC.
~~~ModNote: Edited for content to clear filters.~~~
twȝk @ 190
I messed up the blockquote on that one, srry.
twȝk @ 193
OK, everyone hard-refresh. Your comment is fixed.
LA Times: “Anyone familiar with the tortured history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict will have a hard time recognizing the history Mearsheimer and Walt rehearse. Every hoary old Israeli atrocity tale is trotted out, and the long story of Palestinian terrorism is rendered entirely as a reaction to Israeli oppression. The failure of every peace negotiation is attributed to Israeli deviousness under the shield of the American Israel lobby. There is nothing here of Palestinian corruption, division and duplicity or even of this unhappy people’s inability to provide a reliable secular partner with whom peace can be negotiated.
At times, the authors simply contradict themselves, asserting — rather remarkably — at one point that the United States has nothing to fear from a nuclear-armed Iran and, at another, that the dangerous prospect of a nuke-equipped Tehran is the Israel lobby’s fault. Similarly, they write, Al Qaeda would hammer its swords into ploughshares and Osama bin Laden would lay down with the lamb if only the United States would come out from under Israel’s thrall and create by coercion a Palestinian state.
Baloney. If — as was long ago proposed — the Jewish state had been established in Uganda, the Twin Towers still would be rubble.”
BigMitch @ 191
I thought you were an attorney, not a shrink. I’m sure Ann Coulter or Shawn Hannity could help you find a striking term to describe my shortcomings in this matter.
The New Yorker: “Where many accounts identify Osama bin Laden’s primary grievances with American support of “infidel” authoritarian regimes in Islamic lands, Mearsheimer and Walt align his primary concerns with theirs: America’s unwillingness to push Israel to end the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. (It doesn’t matter that Israel and the Palestinians were in peace negotiations in 1993, the year of the first attack on the World Trade Center, or that during the Camp David negotiations in 2000 bin Laden’s pilots were training in Florida.) Mearsheimer and Walt give you the sense that, if the Israelis and the Palestinians come to terms, bin Laden will return to the family construction business.
It’s a narrative that recounts every lurid report of Israeli cruelty as indisputable fact but leaves out the rise of Fatah and Palestinian terrorism before 1967; the Munich Olympics; Black September; myriad cases of suicide bombings; and other spectaculars.”
Ed*ard Teller @ 189
twȝk @ 190
What’s called the Israel lobby is a loose affiliation of groups and individuals that actively work to influence U.S. governmental policy on Israel’s in Isreal’s favor. It is not a monolith, and there is a wide spectrum of opinions but the core of most influential participants involves outfits like A*P*C and AEI etc., and they are certainly neocon.
Chicago Sun Times: “The two go to lengths to try to rebut any suggestion of anti-Semitism in their criticism of the American Israeli Political Action Committee and other pro-Israel groups. But you can’t read The Israel Lobby without realizing that whenever two interpretations exist for some action by Israel or its supporters, Mearsheimer and Walt automatically default to the darker view.”
The Lurking Mod @ 194
Thanks!
The New York Times: “The general tone of hostility to Israel grates on the nerves, however, along with an unignorable impression that hardheaded political realism can be subject to its own peculiar fantasies. Israel is not simply one country among many, for example, just as Britain is not. Americans feel strong ties of history, religion, culture and, yes, sentiment, that the authors recognize, but only in an airy, abstract way.
They also seem to feel that, with Israel and its lobby pushed to the side, the desert will bloom with flowers. A peace deal with Syria would surely follow, with a resultant end to hostile activity by Hezbollah and Hamas. Next would come a Palestinian state, depriving Al Qaeda of its principal recruiting tool. (The authors wave away the idea that Islamic terrorism thrives for other reasons.) Well, yes, Iran does seem to be a problem, but the authors argue that no one should be particularly bothered by an Iran with nuclear weapons. And on and on.”
This one must have been written for ET personally:
Asia Times: “Mearsheimer and Walt seem to know little about the Middle East, Israel’s role in US foreign policy, and what are core US goals and strategic interests in the region. They argue that this is a case of the “tail wagging the dog” – a small client state and its allies in the US leading the US government to engage in policies that are manifestly against its interests because of undue political power. But this is nonsense. In fact, it is the other way around.”
The Washington Post: “In the end, Mearsheimer and Walt disappoint. They had an observation worth making and a position worth debating. But their argument is so dry, so one-sided — an Israel lobby that leads America around by the nose — they suggest that not only do they not know Israel, they don’t know America, either.”
nite, lurking mod, wigwam, Dr. Mitchlove…
Here’s what a former secretary of state had to say on the subject. George Shultz (not a neo-con, by the way.)
nite ET. I should shuffle off, too.
Holding my tongue like this is excruciating.
BigMitch @ 197
Of course, they leave out details about those Palestinian groups. It’s a book about the effects of the Israel Lobby on U.S. foreign policy, not a history of the I/P dispute.
Here is a short transcript of an interview of Mearsheimer and Walt by the LA Times editorial board:
http://www.latimes.com/news/op…..mo-opinion
I recommend it.
Here is a working paper THE ISRAEL LOBBY AND U.S. FOREIGN POLICY
Lurker — do I have to use an asterisk to type the acronym of the Israel lobby?
CTuttle @ 86
Let him get out of his bubble and he might, just might, change his mind. After all, from his perspective, it must seem a bit of a reach to see Jews as victims. If he hangs around in the West a bit, he’ll see that no one but nutcases question the historical reality of the Holocaust, regardless of what a person thinks of Israel and its policies.
BigMitch @ 209
Yes.
Here’s a point by point analysis and rebuttal of Walt and Meersheim’s book.
Note to Lurking Mod: Thank you.
incidentally, I agree with CTuttle at 97. I see no reason to deny Ahmidajan access to ground zero or to Columbia University.
And another thing:
I have no idea how to spell the man’s name. Dammit!
twȝk @ 210
Here is a follow-up paper that they published in the London Review of Books
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html
Their book is an expansion of that second article. It’s 355 pages of text followed by 104 pages of footnotes.
wigwam @ 217
Have you read it?
Ed*ard Teller @ 183
It’s not only creepy. It’s counterproductive. The end result is that whenever the charge “anti-Semitic” is flourished, the reflexive response is going to be, “so who gives a flying f*ck?”
sunsin @ 219
Don’t quite understand this.
Is it okay to call someone an anti-Semite if it is true? Oh, it is counter-productive, is it?
What do I know? After all, “the truth will set you free” is not in my Bible.
I am the kind of a guy who calls a spade a goddamned shovel, and if the truth hurts, bummer for you.
BigMitch @ 216
I poking through all the links and will give them a more though read.
John 8:32
BigMitch @ 218
Checking back in briefly as I put Strider to bed:
I’m reading it. You’re welcome to borrow it when I’m finished, or - if you agree to read it – I’ll buy you a copy. I’m reading it alongside Abe Foxman’s new book. I must be seriously disturbed, eh?
Sounds like a very serious late, late tonight. How is everyone tonight?
CTuttle @ 86
Juan Cole claims that Ahmadinijad has been misquoted regarding regading calls for the destruction of Israel: http://www.juancole.com/2007/0…..mitic.html
BigMitch @ 218
Your reactionary stance is counter-productive to your argument. You say it is true that Buchanan is an anti-Semite but with the evidence presented in this thread I was not persuaded and , to be honest, more persuaded against your argument by your reactionary stance.
BigMitch @ 218
I have the book and have read parts of it. I also have heard them lecture on it to a predominantly jewish audience.
Ed*ard Teller @ 223
I can’t promise that I will read the entire thing. To quote a famous editor, you don’t have to eat an entire egg to know if it is rotten. I have waded through some useless shit, just out of respect for you, since you recommended it.
I know that you find it creepy that I would agree with Wm F. B’s accusation of a fellow republican. Or something. I will tell you that your comment at 193 is seriously creepy since it seems to call into question the patriotism of American Jews. It’s really hard for me to understand what else could have been intended by whoever put those statistics together in the first place. Was that you?
BigMitch @ 228
It is an accurate compilation that was used to illustrate the accuracy of one of Buchanan’s statements which Buckley hadn’t thought through very carefully. I compared four tables, did some math, and came up with the comparison. If you have something more authoritative, please enlighten me.
twȝk @ 226
Well, if you read the article you might be persuaded. I can’t be blamed for the fact that the article isn’t readily available on the web. It was written in 1991, after all. But the fact that a summary of it is not pursuasive really doesn’t undermine my argument. The real deal is that when Buckley criticizes a fellow republican it is not based on idle speculation. If I was relying on Jackie Mason or someone like that, I would see your point. But is it ever proper to rely on another’s conclusions? If not, why are you satisfied by forming an opinion based on a summary of Buckley’s article?
If you read that LA Times interview, it’s very close to the lecture that I heard and what I’ve read so far in the book. These guys are very careful and nuanced in what they say. For example, regarding the invasion of Iraq, they say that the lobby was one of many groups involved in pushing for war with Iraq, but the invasion wouldn’t have happened without them. (I haven’t gone through the footnotes on that. So I don’t know how well they made that case.)
Ed*ard Teller @ 193
Hi ET. Do you have a reference for those numbers?
Mitch – So far this evening, you’ve suggested that those here who postulate an opposing opinion to yours, and not their opinions, are “out of the bounds of rational debate“, you’ve been vulgarly dismissive of those opinions, and you have sinned the worst sin possible in blog-terms – you cribbed FOX News with your “Some say…”.
Pardon my Gentile ass Mitch, but STFU, would you please?
Speaking for myself, I sort of admire your devotion to making sure that no one ever says anything critical of Israel, or Israel’s policies re other Middle Eastern nations, or, Dog-forbid, the lobby’s intentions, without catching a hellacious earfull. Hell, it’s what makes you so popular.
But there is a limit, and just because it’s not spelled out in some rule book, doesn’t mean it can’t be figured out.
Put another way, Mitch, once the nail is pounded flush, you’re just making splinters.
Figure it out please, Mitch.
Ed*ard Teller @ 229
You are not as ignorant as you are pretending to be. You know very well that the charge Buchanan was making was intended to foster a resentment against Jews, many of whom supported the first Gulf War, on the grounds that they (Jews) were indifferent to the lives of people with Irish or Afro-american names. To say that American Jews don’t stand with the troops of this country is an egregious libel, and Buchanan was propagating it. Now, what was your point about “accuracy of one of Buchanan’s statements which Buckley hadn’t thought through very carefully.”?
BigMitch @ 228
The summary of Buckley’s article, appears to me, as tho Buckley is using language in a similar in fashion to how our own right wing calls our left wing anti-american.
newtonusr @ 233
Mission accomplished.
twȝk @ 235
If the summary statement that I quoted from the review article is correct, Buckeley is of the opinion that criticism of the Israel lobby as having “undue influence” on U.S. policy is de facto antisemitism. And there are plenty of cases of Buchanan making such criticism, probably a dozen articles (mostly at antiwar.com) in the past two or three years.
The thing about Walt and Mearsheimer is that they document in detail that the influence of the lobby is large (but not omnipotent) and often against U.S. interests. By the same token, they say that the lobby is not unamerican and that many groups, e.g., the NRA and an the cuban americans, have very powerful lobbies that often have a negative influence.
Good Morning. 68 clear and dry in Blue Ridge GA.
My only question (so far) in the above controversy is why is the Israeli lobby right wing (Likhud?) and the Israeli Peach Movement have no impact in this country?
And can someone enlighten me on how American Fundamentalists (who are the norm in my neck of the woods) with Holy Land on the brain are unable to distinguish between the Biblical Children of Israel and Likhud?
MR. Bill @ 238
Regarding the first question, in the U.S. the right wing of everything seems to be better financed and more tightly organized. There are a few loosely affiliated U.S. groups that one might call an Israel/Palestine peace movement but they are very fragmented.
Regarding the second question, it’s a mystery to me. All I can say is that the bible talks about the “Children of Israel” winning lots of battles, and the Christianists see the Israeli militarists as their modern-day counterpart. Sigh.
I’m signing off now. G’nite.
wigwam @ 235
That was my sense of it. If you oppose the right wing of the Israelis or think that the Israel Lobby has greater share influence than the majority of americans then you are an anti-Semite. At this point it appears to me that the Israel Lobby has both “undue influence” on foreign policy and is not in America best interest.
From your summary Walt and Mearsheimer they sound as if they are fair. Another good example would be the health industry lobby that is arguable not in the best interest of Americans.
Good night wigwam and Oh No! It’s Mr. Bill!!
howdy twak.
bailing, finally. nite pups
Good night Moof!
brb, more coffee
“Aria Lieschen
Mm! how sweet the coffee tastes,
more delicious than a thousand kisses,
mellower than muscatel wine.
Coffee, coffee I must have,
and if someone wishes to give me a treat,
ah, then pour me out some coffee!”-
from The Coffee Cantata by J. S. Bach
Of course, the Coffee Cantata, like most of Pat Buchanan’s speeches, sounds better in the original German.
MR. Bill @ 243
707! No Joke!
Now I’m starting to wonder if a citizens can introduce an Open Letter for the Sense of the Senate!
yo
morning Raven.
twȝk @ 248
After the Move-On censure, they need a Lack of Sense motion…
MR. Bill @ 251
Non-binding no doubt.
lol
And can someone enlighten me on how American Fundamentalists (who are the norm in my neck of the woods) with Holy Land on the brain are unable to distinguish between the Biblical Children of Israel and Likhud?
Mr. Bill, in a way this doesn’t answer the exact question you raised, but some fundamentalists subscribe to a doctrine called dispensationalism:
To which gentile me can only say “Oy, vey!” Btw, further down in that wiki article it’s noted that these folk are often believers in The Rapture. And finally there’s this near the end:
My emph on that word that keeps popping up of late.
Me, I’d rather have some of Bach’s coffee.
Ed*ard Teller @ 183
Just getting to these. Wild that Buchanan makes so much sense.
prostratedragon @ 254
Ok, that tracks the use of the Schofield Reference Bible, one of the sources of Dispensationalism. I know it’s a pissing contest but could some mainstream Xtian theologian show it up for the racist sort of heresy it is?
prostratedragon @ 254
Sounds like the Doors Roadhouse Blues
“I woke up dis mornin
and I had myself a beer
The future’s uncertain
and the end is always near
well all right”
Good Morning, Firepups!
It’s clear and cool this morning in central Jersey, but the winds are shifting to the south, so warmer, more humid air will be coming this way, bringing us a bit more summer for the next couple of days.
Glad I missed some of the fireworks up-thread.
I’m putting on a big pot of coffee, and popping a batch of herb biscuits into the oven. They’ll be ready in a jiffy!
Work for peace, every day.
prostratedragon @ 252
Yeah, coffee is good. Interesting link tho, thanks.
twȝk @ 255
DAng Ed*ard. He makes too much sense.
(although I read somewhere that the “we will bury you” Khrushchev remark was a mis-translation of “we will leave you in the dust”, more of a racing metaphore..)
All I know is that when the Israeli right are courting the Dominionists in this country, they are playing with fire.
MR. Bill @ 260
Is this like Derek and the Dominionists ?
Good morning, pups. The NYT has Bobo and Bob Herbert. Bobo holds forth on what we need to know about the future of the Democratic party. (You might think he’d want to address his attentions to the mess that is the Republican party…) Mr. Herbert, however, takes care of that for him and explains just how ugly the GOP can be.
http://mgpaquin.wordpress.com/
The coffee and tea are ready, and the biscuits are out of the oven. Have a great day.
Good morning Marion, and g’bye to all.
You’uns take it easy.
you know Shrub has a memberonly jacket in his closet
Marion in Savannah @ 260
Bobo starts off good :D
`,609 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Raven and the early mornin’ Firepup Patriots:
“Is this like Derek and the Dominionists.”
Oh Brother Raven, would that it were so…but in one of the great ironies of history the fascist right wing of Isreali politics is NOT a cartoon or, unfortunately, a good rock group. They are masterful politicians who have learned the same lessons that Grampa Prescott Bush and the America Firsters learned from the master in the 1930’s…the use of fear, religion and terror. Unfortunately they have “the bomb” and if their American fascist counterparts bail on them or lose the next election, the Israili tail now has teeth and will bite the dog right in the ass and make a good hunk of Ahrab real estate unihasbitable.
KEEP THE FAITH AND DO THE WORK!!
good morning all!
this is going to be a 2x coffee day for me.
njprogressive @ 258
nj, i don’t think i’ve ever told you how much i appreciate your daily msg. it’s both a comfort and an inspiration. many thanks.
Good Morning!
selise @ 268
What selise said…
here’s what i plan to listen to this morning:
9:30 am – Senate Judiciary
“Strengthening FISA: Does the Protect America Act Protect Americans’ Civil Liberties and Enhance Security?”
Witnesses:
Michael McConnell , DNI
James A. Baker, Formerly Counsel for Intelligence Policy, DOJ
James X. Dempsey , Policy Director, Center for Democracy and Technology
Suzanne E. Spaulding, Principal, Bingham Consulting Group
Bryan Cunningham, Principal, Morgan & Cunningham LLC
but there’s also hearings on katrina, gulf war illness, imus, civil rights division of the DOJ, trade policy and a bunch more – all this morning (complete list)
selise @ 269
Full plate today!
Good morning!
Good morning!
thank selise!
that’s the hearing that interests me the most, too.
and this one:
House Judiciary, Subcommittee on Commercial and Administrative Law
Hearing on: Straightening Out the Mortgage Mess: How Can We Protect Home Ownership and Provide Relief to Consumers in Financial Distress?
twȝk @ 272
yes, especially as the dangerous kyl/lieberman anti-iran amendment may come up for a vote today. i’m going to be trying to watch the senator floor, also, so as not to miss the debate/vote on that one.
Elliott @ 275 –
lol, i hadn’t yet checked this afternoon’s hearings to see what i would listen to….
if you are interested in the mortage crisis and what actions are being considered… did you by any chance catch last week’s joint economic committee, “To hold hearings to examine the evolution of an economic crisis, focusing on the subprime lending disaster and the threat to the broader economy.” i thought it was very good (shiller, among others testified).
selise @ 274
speaking of “cuckoo land” as Bobo so aptly put it.
selise @ 276
This and the baffling 97-0 Lieberman vote will be used to show that Congress approved strikes on Iran.
selise @ 277
no, I didn’t, thanks!
egregious @ 279
and the house’s h.con.r.21
stupid congress.
well, until the vote is held, i’m still going to hope that the kyl/lieberman amendment goes down in flames… (and yes i know the chances of that happening are not good – but let me hang on to hope for as long as i can)
egregious @ 279
you’re right.
Sometimes I feel like we’re in the back seat of a car just about to careen off a cliff –
Just popping back in for a few minutes. Hokey as it sounds, Mr. NJP is my inspiration. He’s gotten involved in two peace organizations, trying to get folks working on the constructive stuff that needs doing, not just the “protest because it feels good” stuff. There are lots of people who are angry about the Bush/Cheney war now, war forever approach to foreign policy. But all of those people don’t necessarily agree with everything in a progressive agenda. The real skill that Mr. NJP has is to find where lots of people have similar views on an issue, and build from there. He doesn’t have as much time to work on peace issues as he would like [aging parent health issues], but doing a little every day adds up.
njprogressive @ 283
what a great guy!
Elliott @ 280 -
there is streaming video at the jec’s archive – here.
and i ripped the audio, if you’re interested. hmmm, i’ll probably upload it even if you’re not, since it was a pretty good hearing…. and i put the charts & figures in the audio “artwork” field.
FDL’s sense of community is my other inspiration. Starting with Jane and Redd, and all of the front pagers, plus so many wonderful and inspiring voices here in the comments.
If we just look around, there’s always something that can be done. Even my knitting group is doing something [a charity project–our first group afghan]! For those who knit, check out Knitting for Peace by Betty Christiansen.
Blessings to you all, as you keep working for a better America and a better world.
selise @ 285
thanks for the link to the streaming..
What a resource you are!
njprogressive @ 283 –
Mr. NJP sounds very wise. gandhi emphasised the importance of “constructive program” as well as “obstructive program”… the latter depends on the former.
Njp “but doing a little every day adds up.”
That’s inspiring!
Mike Levitt’s up on Washington Journal to talk SCHIP.
He’s a lousy head of the Homeland Health & Human Services Department, imo
I don’t think I’m alone here when I say that I have a hard time concentrating at work. This is not healthy. I’m always popping into FDL, Kos etc., checking on the news. Always on the edge of my seat.
And, the problem is that I think we have the people behind us. They’ve been convinced. Yet, nothing has changed. What more can be done? America is screaming that we want peace. And we’re being ignored.
I’ve certainly had my moments of despair [there were several last week, but the worst was when the Senate passed the Military Commissions Act]. But legislation can be undone, and the awful legislation of the Bush years will be undone, I believe. And working to change that gives me something to do, and all of you, working on it, give me hope.
But I’m terrified about the prospects for war with Iran. It’s suicidal. I worry about going over that cliff with those crazy people in charge.
Marion in Savannah @ 262
Brook’s article is about a bit more than just the party:
This despairs me
Bush Offering ‘Back-Channel’ Political Advice To Democratic Candidates: Stay In Iraq
What scares me about Kyl/Lieberman is that NO ONE has talked about it. If the dems were going to vote it down, you would think they would have set the stage over the weekend. Explain their rationale. The fact that it wasn’t mentioned has me worried that it will pass and they’ll hope nobody notices.
Morning, all–
“Morning Joe” playing the Bill-O Harlem restaurant clip!
And, as crazy as Ahmadinejad is, he’s begging to be heard. Trying desperately to avoid war and sanctions. And no one will talk to him. He has asked to speak directly to Bush. Looks like an opening to me…..but nooooo. We’d rather choose war.
solai @ 297
please
hey twȝk, are you still around?
I’m off to get ready for work. I’ll be checking in. Keep your fingers crossed.
Morning call to action from Christy Hardin Smith:
Hanging On The Telephone
selise @ 299
Yeah, moving to next thread :)
twȝk @ 302
ok, thanks! want to ask a cocoajt question… when it won’t be too disruptive to the other firepups.
Trex there are several other differences between President George Bush and President Ahmadinejad.
George Bush is threatening to bomb Iran and the Iranian President is not threatening to bomb anyone.
President Ahmadinejad supports distribution of the oil and gas revenue amongst the people of Iran, George Bush does not support distribution of oil revenue amongst the American people.
President Ahmadinejad speaks five languages, George Bush barely speaks one language.
President Ahmadinejad has made efforts to negotiate with the US Bush has refused.
President Ahmadinejad lives a humble life, George Bush does not.
Iran actually allows inspections of their nuclear facilities, the US does not.
Just a few of the differences
selise @ 303
Sure we stay here for that.
Did you get very far with it?
solai @ 295
Selise sure has tried to get people’s attention on this.
TRex @ 20
Milosevic was held accountable for his war crimes.
Selise,
I did give it a quick go compiling it but I’m missing a few of the mac SDKs and looking a little closer I’m of the opinion that CocoaJT died as a project.
twȝk @ 305
thanks!
no. i’m afraid not. remember i am very ignorant. :(
1) i downloaded and installed x-code (is that what i should have installed?)
2) i went looking for the cocoajt source code and couldn’t find it.
solai @ 297
President Ahmadinejad is desperately and humby trying to discourage the US from pre-emptively attacking Iran. And what does Ahmadinejad get for his efforts a kick in the face by Columbia’s President Bollinger even before he addresses the audience, booed and ridiculed by the audience.
If Bollingers diatribe before Ahmadinejad’s address is an example of the way Journalism students are educated /trained at Columbia, there should be no need to wonder why the US press seldom writes about Iran honestly or the Palestinian’s plight or honestly about the I/P issue.
selise @ 309
Not ignorant, just new ground to break :)
And yes, X-Code is the right software to install. You will likey get the same errors that I got but maybe not.
Worth a try anyways. Download the CocoaJT source, extract, and open CocoaJT.xcodeproj with Xcode.app.
That will update the older version of the Xcode project file. Once the project is opened in Xcode hit the build button and it will either fail fairly soon in the compile or it build successfully.
Either way Xcode will be a handy tool for you to use.
solai @ 297
According to middle east expert Flynt Leverett many Iranian officials have tried over many years to negotiate with US administrations.
http://www.prospect.org/cs/art…..leId=11859
A missed opportunity with Iran
http://www.newsday.com/news/na…..3960.story
This one should read “another” missed opportunity with Iran
A missed opportunity with Iran
Islamic country said to have notified U.S. in ‘03 of willingness to negotiate over WMDs, but ex-officials say Bush team didn’t want to deal
BY GREGORY BEALS | SPECIAL TO NEWSDAY
February 19, 2006
In May 2003, shortly after the U.S. military destroyed the army of Saddam Hussein, a fax arrived at the State Department with an Iranian offer to open talks that would include a discussion of weapons of mass destruction.
The one-page document was written by Sadegh Kharazi, Iran’s ambassador to France and nephew of Iranian Foreign Minister Kamal Kharazi and passed on by the Swiss ambassador to Tehran, who represented U.S. interests in Iran, a former administration official said.
The official, who saw the document, said it indicated that Iran wanted to negotiate a grand political bargain with the United States that would include everything from Iran’s nuclear program to its support for groups that Washington regards as terrorist.
“The Iranians acknowledged that WMD and support for terror were serious causes of concern for us, and they were willing to negotiate,” said Flynt Leverett, a former senior director for Middle East affairs at the National Security Council who said he read the document. “The message had been approved by all the highest levels of authority. They wanted us to deal with sanctions, security guarantees, normalization of relations, and support for integration of Iran into the World Trade Organization.”
Kathleen @ 310
Kathleen did you see Infantile Nation?
twȝk @ 311
silly me. i did download the correct cocoajt – but i was confused by the compiled app… didn’t see the source folder (duh!).
for some reason though, this time when i opened x-code it automatically opened the cocoajt project.
building now… (i installed x-code 2.4.1)…
wow, things have come far from the days of
$ compile fortran filename.for
selise @ 315
lol, you geek :)
I don’t quite understand the Iranian President story from one basic point of view:
Why does a University invite a speaker if they just plan to insult him? They couldn’t wait until he spoke. They just insulted him outright in his introduction. Even Wm. F. Buckley shows has more courtesy than that when he laces his intros with snide comments. It may be silly for the Iranian President to walk into this, but I think the whole thing speaks volumes about Columbia University too. It it ain’t good.
twȝk – any suggestions? is this what happened to you?
selise @ 318
double click down in the bottom right where it says the number of errors et.al and it’ll show you the specifics.
I think I had atleast 3 errors and that many warnings.
twȝk @ 319
oh shoot, i just closed x-tools…. the SJC hearing has started, and i have audio hijack pro running now to rip audio. think i’d better wait until after the hearing, as i don’t know if my little g4 ibook can handle more than i already have open.
will pick this (cocoajt) back up later… thanks for the handholding through this bit!
selise @ 320
No problem, the least I can do for you with all the great work you do!
twȝk @ 321 -
i guess we’re all just trying to contribute in what ever ways we can. well, thanks again, your help is very much appreciated and i’m sure i’ll be asking more questions in the future *g*.
p.s. if there is a way for me to get cocoajt working, i’ll use it to rip video of interesting hearings, especially for committees that don’t maintain archives and that are not covered by c-span… (just like i try to do with audio now).
dude @ 317
At the Salon website you can read many articles responding to the Iranian Presidents address.
Also if you really want to widen your understanding on Iran, go to the New American Foundations website and read everything you can by Middle East Expert Flynt Leverett. Flynt quit the Bush administration based on his disagreement with the invasion of Iran and the Bush administrations foreign policy.
The Iaea’s (International Atomic Energy Agency) website is a treasure of information. The Director of the Iaea Mr. El Baradei (who told the world in early March of 2003 that the Niger Documents and other WMD intelligence was false). Keeps asking all sides to stop repeating the inflammatory language on this issue. Micheal Ledeen, Reuel Marc Gerecht, James Woolsey, Cheney, John Bolton, Bill Kristol, etc all refuse. They have been repeating unsubstantiated claims about Iran for years now.
Grossly EPU’d, but herein I march, pad pad pad.
Halllooooooo! Anyone home?
Kathleen?? U still out & about, you earlybird/nightowl you?
This is a small start, anyway – eh?
I’m gonna bookmark this thread, follow up up on the links, and pack some learnin’ into my headbone. Thank you much!
One question for you, and anyone else out there who wants to wade in:
Do you think Ahmadinejad’s bold visit to the U.S. might make it LESS likely our very own crew of nuttywarmongers will be able to summon the courage and substance to go forth with any plans to carry out another pre-emptive strike?
He is obnoxious, yeah, even odious, but mebbe that, plus packs of lies aren’t enuf to enable our own version of the beast to proceed with nefarious agenda(???). I do hope that is so.
Thank you again, Kath. for bringing all that info in to the Lake. Lots to chew on. Gotta git some coffee, but then some much-needed further education starts in this house.
Bye for now…
luv the riddle TRex! Makes me furious tho. Too much truthiness can do that…
I hope it works. It just might. We all know bo*bs won’t. That’s been done, and it’s gettin’ old real fast. dog help us.
Adie @ 324
The national papers lean towards bashing the Iranian President. Today on the Diane Rehm show Barbara Slavin repeated the “cakewalk in Iraq” unsubstantiated claims about Iran. “IED’s, involvement in Syria, Lebanon, nuclear”weapons” program. Her willingness to repeat these unsubstantiated claims and the fact that most of the people who repeat these unsubstantiated claims go unchallenged does not look good for Iran.
CIA analyst Bill Christison, Zbigniew Brezinski, Scott Ritter and many more believe the “cakewalk” zealots will be successful at convincing the Bush administration to pre-emptively attack Iran. The majority of Americans sleepwalk it is as if the bomb all ready dropped in the U.S. There are millions of walking dead.
Lots of articles at Salon today in response to the Iran issue
Kathleen. Thanks again. Really appreciate all the info.