Another week of our Residual Troop Watch has passed with no specifics from the presidential “frontrunners” on their plans – but Senator Clinton sure had a lot to say this morning on her multiple big media appearances. While the headlines speak of her plans to “end funding for the war,” her full comments are more informative.
On Face the Nation she said “there would be a continuing American military presence in Iraq:”
Clinton said she recognized “there will be remaining missions” for American forces in Iraq, but she said they would not require the roughly 100,000 troops expected to be in Iraq when the next president takes office. She listed counterterrorism, protecting U.S. personnel and training Iraqi forces as the other missions.
“That’s the right way to go because that is a much clearer definition of what we’re trying to accomplish than what we face today,” Clinton said.
Bloomberg reports that in her ABC appearance “Clinton said she couldn’t promise to bring all U.S. troops home in her first term if she is elected president.”
Interesting eh? As David Sanger, chief Washington correspondent for The New York Times, noted on Face the Nation Clinton’s position is not all that far from George Bush’s:
“It’s a very small difference, and when you tick off the tasks she said the troops would do while she was president – if that happened – counterterrorism, protection of the Kurds, training of the Iraqi army and then protecting us against Iran, that’s a big set of tasks,” Sanger said. “And it’s very hard when you talk to Pentagon people to have them figure out how you do that with fewer than 100,000 troops.”
Oh, and in case we had thought she supported MoveOn, Senator Clinton also had some things to say – first on Meet the Press:
“I think it’s important that we end these kinds of attacks on the patriotism of those who serve our country,” Clinton said on NBC’s “Meet the Press” program. “This is not a debate about an ad. This is a debate about the direction we should pursue in Iraq.”
and then on … Fox News:
WALLACE: President Bush said that you and other Democrats are more afraid — his word — afraid of irritating the left wing and MoveOn than you are about insulting the American military. Does he have a point?
H. CLINTON: No, he doesn’t. But I think it’s clear I don’t condone attacks on anyone who has served our country with distinction and with honor, and I have been very vocal in my support of and admiration for General Petraeus.
I did vote for a resolution that made it clear I do not condone and do condemn attacks on any American, impugning their patriotism, and that includes people like Senator Max Cleland and Senator John Kerry.
I think we need to call a halt to any kind of attacks, from wherever they come, that would go after anyone based on their service to America.
WALLACE: (snip) So let me ask you specifically. Do you repudiate the MoveOn.org ad?
H. CLINTON: I have said, and I have voted for, condemning anyone who goes after the patriotism and service of any American.
But let’s put this in a broader context. You know, there are many people who have assaulted over the years the patriotism and service of other Americans. I think it’s time to end all of that.
And what I voted for in the Senate did that. It was balanced and it said, very clearly, we condemn attacks on anyone who has served honorably in our country’s uniform. And I am absolutely of the mind that this should not be part of our debate.
While our politicians condemn ads instead of the continuation of the occupation, a new danger has been added to the lives of the people of Iraq. The WHO reports that Cholera is spreading throughout Iraq. The team at GorillasGuides are providing daily updates of this horrific development – you can read them all here. Note the comments from Maryam, the Iraqi pediatric oncologist who visited with us this summer:
I am desperately concerned also by the water supply situation. Since they were bombed by the Americans during the 1991 war the water treatment plants throughout Irak have limped along. Their degradation was further worsened by the adamant refusal of the UN during sanctions to allow the plant and supplies needed to repair them to be imported. There has been no serious attempt made to repair water treatment plants in Irak although many no-bid contracts were dished out to large and politically well connected American firms who took the money and left.
Those plants that are operating operate irregularly and frequently at drastically reduced capacity because they either cannot get the fuel they need to run their generators or if they depend on national grid they get at most a few hours electricity a day.
Additionally they cannot get adequate supplies of Chlorine. Basrah for example has now run out of Chlorine. There have been many statements about plans to ensure the security of Chlorine deliveries from the green zone government but so far little or no Chlorine.
These factors are particularly worrying as they could lead to the formation of biofilms in the pipes carrying water. Bacteria in biofilms are far more resistant free-floating bacteria both to antibiotics and to disinfectants such as Chlorine.
You can help – and help is desperately needed – with contributions to the Red Crescent – click on “Iraq Humanitarian Crisis” to direct your donation to the IFRC teams who are trying to get chlorine and water treatment filters to Iraqi communities – and by demanding once again that our representatives take action to protect the lives of the Iraqi people.
Photo: A man sifts through the rubble of a destroyed house after a U.S. raid in Mussayab near Hilla, about 100 km (60 miles) south of Baghdad, September 22, 2007. Seven people were killed and 12 others were arrested during a raid conducted by U.S. forces in Mussayab on Saturday, police said. REUTERS/Ibrahim Sultan (IRAQ)
h/t Jerid
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Thank the Goddess of Blogs!
Siun!!!!
hello, Siun!
exactly right. i’m ashamed by congress’s actions this week.
HRC…i can’t go on.
Hi Siun!
zedecile
Good evening everyone!
Siunshine, I read you and check myself for scars thinking we must have been separated at birth..)
Hillary really showed her true DLC colors on CNN today and cannot imagine why people are supporting her at all.
I was hoping you were on a happy vacation almost as much as I was hoping you were just showing up a bit late, Siun…
We all know how much I hate this war. Please tell Maryam that I’ve shared her story and truth with as many people as will listen.
ET – I will pass the word to Maryam. She is very upset by the cholera spread and conditions are so bad for fighting it.
ES – the HRC comments were so telling …
(separated at birth, hmmm …. maybe!?)
Senator Clinton did, however, vote Nay on the resolution condemning the Betrayus ad. That’s something (I wish I were certain what).
g’evening siun
you mean bushco with all his “concern” for the iraqis they donbt already have these items?? where’s the funds going?? as if i didnt really know………..
AP – The U.S. military accused Iran on Sunday of smuggling surface-to-air missiles and other advanced weapons into Iraq for use against American troops. The new allegations came as Iraqi leaders condemned the latest U.S. detention of an Iranian in northern Iraq, saying the man was in their country on official business.
HRC is a neo-con owned and operated political machine, and support for a candidacy like hers is bad for your moral hygeine.
If she is the first president to pre-emptively nuke another country since Nagasaki, an option she proudly maintains is “on the table”, how would you feel having supported her?
Least worst is not a valid excuse, nor is ‘just following orders.’
Lynn Lightfoot @ 11
HRC voted no on the coryn amendment condeming moveon. she voted yes on the boxer amendment condmening moveon.
Lynn … The vote that HRC voted for was Boxer’s resolution which condemned MoveOn but also condemned the Swiftboat campaign etc … hence the ability to claim to vote against and for at the same time. This is a tactic being used a lot these days it seems…
Looks like Hillary will be the next prez…odds are at least two ta one in favor.
Good night for kiddo and me.
lahoma
Wait, Hillary’s a DINO? Who knew? After nearly 4 years of support for Bush’s war, she still isn’t willing to repudiate it? I am shocked. And unwilling to stand up either for her base or the First Amendment? Well, none of us could have guessed, could we? Indeed none of us can say afer seeing how she has acted for the last nearly 7 years how she will act as President so I am sure as long as we don’t use consistency as a guide she will do fine.
Siun @ 16
As if wasting their time on one stupid resolution wasn’t bad enough! Has anyone gotten an explanation from Harry Reid as to why he let this debate even occur?
OK Kiddo … we do seem to arrest Iranian diplomats rather often. Too bad we don’t arrest Blackwater thugs instead.
just sayin’
Mincemeat and Parsley. It’s what’s for dinner at HRC’s house. (Mincing and Parsing her words, in case my joke was over yer hed . . . ;~]
Shorter HRC: “I was for the war before I was against the war before I was for the war.”
rwcole @ 17
She is and she’ll find someone’s ass to kick. . .true dat!
I thought the Betrayus ad was reasonably funny- but most don’t share my sense of humor- most people thought it was disrespectful..goopers pretend to be outraged by it. Dems don’t quite know what to do. I’m bored by the whole fuckin thing.
I just had the misfortune to turn on the tv. Hannity is running a program on moveon. Basically, he says that moveon engineered the Lamont campaign (wrong, if memory serves me correctly they were timid, and got marginally involved after the primary.) That we forced HoJoe out of the Democratic party, but he got the “last laugh.” They showed DarkBlack’s graphics of Clinton and HoJoe, implying that it came from the Lamont campaign, which ran a “nasty campaign led by nutroots.” That Lamont has “disappeared into obscurity.” Wrong, he has always been local, and still is involved locally. That moveon is now afraid of the Dem party because of the Cornyn Boxer BS. I wanted to put my fist threw the tv. /rant off.
Lynn Lightfoot @ 11
Yea, but she voted yes on the Boxer resolution, and they where not that different. She is a weasel, always has been.
Oh and Hillary sucked on Pumpkinhead’s show this morning.
HRC will not be the next prez
for two reasons
lots of people hate her
crooked elections
oh, and a third thing, MSM will criticise her
(I’ll be away from comments for about 10 minutes … brb)
Good post Siun.
What I find depressing is the complete inability of the media and presidential candidates to think and discuss big picture. Withdraw the troops, not withdraw the troops? That is the entire debate. The failure of the sruge shows that focusing solely on military tactics will result in failure.
I heard courtly ol’ Bob’s show and disagreed with Sanger’s comment that there is not a lot of difference between Clinton and Bush’s position because it is based on a measure that does not mean much in the long term. We do not know enough about HRC’s approach to ME. It would be nice if she would tell us. But, reality is about more than troop levels.
The important questions are: Will these troops be there with the US attempting a biilateral (US-Iraq) and mainly military appraoch to security in Iraq with the US playing the big daddy trying to call the shots? (if the answer is yes, then 0, 30,000, 200,000, 400,000 troops will fail, so ought to go with cheapest number in terms of lives and dollars, which is 0).
Will there be comprehensive regional negotiations with all of Iraq’s neighbors. Will there be pressure put on Saudi Arabia to stop support of insurgency in Iraq, as well as pressur put on Iran? (If the answer is no, then whatever we do will fail, so then might as well just leave and let things take their course).
Will future president cut out the Cheney-Bush US crony capitalism, and lawless behavior? (if no, then we will never ever get any meaningful buy in for substantial help from UN or allies.)
The fact that cholrea is spreading in Iraq because ’security measures’ prevent sufficient chlorine from bring used in water treatment plants, that is talking big picture. The implications of that get to some big picture issues. Why was that not mentioned?
I found the level of discussion on Face the Nation dpressing. HRC and Sanger and ol’ courtly Bob sounded like grade schoolers playing with GI joe dolls in the backyard. Nothing they discussed would make much difference in terms of improving vital US national security interests in the region, or improving chances that Iraq can emerge from its current nightmare soon.
And in my opinion “vital national security interests” does not include things like “The US is an empire now and it would be nice to have airbases next to the oil.”
Siun @ 30
Oh boy, can I talk about the Bear game? (just kidding)
Siun @ 21
follow the money
HRC just gets all the media.. i for 1 dont think she’s all that electable..she surely doesnt have my lil vote and according to a friend or 3 she doesnt have theirs either…
Siun @ 21
But…but…Siun?
Doncha know there are bad terrorists and there are good terrorists?
And how does one tell them apart?
Some wear boxers and others wear briefs. Depends I guess on which side you sit.
The world is a funny place that way.
juslin @ 34
Maybe everyone can just throw away there vote on Nader. . .that’ll show em.
We’ve established what kind of woman she is, and now were just quibbling over residual troop levels.
sporkovat @ 14
Brilliant.
[and OK, sleep well :) ]
wesgpc, I left ya comment on the prior thread…
wigwam @ 37
Great!
ohhhhhh is ralphy running again lol
If any other candidate is gonna stop Hillary- he’s got about two months to eat into her lead- and that’s gonna take some big firepower- not a little teasin. Once we get into the holiday season- it’s about over.
raven @ 40
Heh, Richardson, in the last debate said no troops, except the embassy’s marines would remain…
CTuttle @ 43
That’d be some great fuckin duty!
raven @ 44
Glad, I was Army… ;-)
it’s going to be interesting to me to see how many here on FDL argue for and against her if she gets the nomination
i’m pretty sure how her 4 years would go
It seems that the Iraqi occupation question has been settled. We will stay forever. How did this happen? Who’s promising we’ll actually leave? I know Richardson and Kucinich are. Anyone else? Are we supposed to just accept this? Iraq forever?
CTuttle @ 45
Engineers, first in last out!
rwcole @ 42
Most polls show a three-way (or four-way) race in Iowa, with Edwards ahead. Hillary has a very slight lead in New Hampshire. This doesn’t portend well for a Clinton sweep. National polls mean nothing at this point. Her inevitability quotient with TradMed will go way, way down when she loses Iowa and the victor in Iowa gets enough of a bump to tie or beat her in New Hampshire.
(Remember, the media needs to sell papers and get eyeballs to the tube; a humdrum primary, with the “frontrunner” winning it all, does not serve their purpose. Building up a frontrunner, only to have her stumble, does.)
Then it’s anybody’s game. Once the “frontrunner” ain’t anymore, there’s no telling who gets nominated.
ymmv
Clinton said she recognized “there will be remaining missions” for American forces in Iraq, but she said they would not require the roughly 100,000 troops expected to be in Iraq when the next president takes office. She listed counterterrorism, protecting U.S. personnel and training Iraqi forces as the other missions.
“That’s the right way to go because that is a much clearer definition of what we’re trying to accomplish than what we face today,” Clinton said.
So Hillary says the Iraq occupation is a good thing. Other then OIL, OIL, OIL, OIL, why would we still be in Iraq?
mui @ 26
the senate opened the crack. we can expect the RWNM to do everything they can think of to drive the wedge in.
raven @ 48
Yer right, somebody has to clear the path…! Didn’t like that aspect much…!!!
selise @ 51
Inside everyone of those Haji’s is an American trying to get out.
CTuttle @ 45
ROFL….let’s make sure they’re not just Jarheads, but fundamentalist Jarheads, eh, raven, CT?
I am leaving to watch TIVO Meet the Press. Before I go, I want to say that I hope that people will see that the worst democrat is many times better than the best republican.
HRC may very well be the worst democrat. I certainly felt that way after seeing her health care program.
I wanted to put this comment up before I watched MTP, because HRC may just piss me off so much, as she is wont to do, that I am unable to summons the strength to remind friends here that even if we have to hold our noses, I hope all of us will work hard to see the Dem nominee elected.
Hannity’s Sunday nite wee programme is harmful to the health of the viewer.
It’s nice that Hannity has moved on
from spending all his time in Sandy Berger’s pants. In all of the polling done since the ad it is the Republicans and supporters of eyerack that have lost numbers.
The msm is just lying now not even pretending to use facts. Tweety slobbering all over the president’s press conference said Bush was setting the agenda for the 2008 campaign. This weekend the ap tells no one speaks Shrubs name on the campaign trail and no one wants to be seen with him
A poll in the Louisville Courier Journal said in the history of the paper Shrub has the lowest ratings.
Teddy
Well- the most recent polls show Hillary widening a lead in the early states and in the big states. Your comments about national polls are accurate- but even the state polls are goin her way. I have to say that she’s runnin a damned good campaign.
Ed*ard Teller @ 54
I thought that was the Fly Boys’ problem…!!! ;-)
TeddySanFran @ 56
not if one doesn’t watch TV
my unscientific survey of a train full of music lovers traveling through copper canyon mexico this past week showed not one hillary supporter.
to a person they did the nose scrunch, sour face “guess i’ll vote for her if i hafta…” thing.
not a presidency that inspires.
(ot: the roots rail musicians entertaining us were dave alvin, tom russell, laurie lewis & tom rozum, butch hancock and terry allen. heaven heaven heaven)
Shh- My teevee doesn’t know that there IS a fox network.
kirk – I think it was a post of Siun’s a month or so ago which featured heartrending tales from an Iraqi Doctor… this doctor had some strong condemnation of Americans, saying we are all stained with the blood of her people.
I agree, and it seemed like most of the commenters did, but a few made protestations of cleanliness, and it seems like the analogy is functional.
CTuttle @ 59
I want to put the fun back in fundalmentalism!
Holy shit.
Bush and Cheney meeting with Freepers at the Whitehouse.
I now declare that Godwin’s Law be revoked posthaste. These mofo’s are In The Bunker.
Their aint now way around it.
-GSD
BigMitch @ 55
Should she win the nomination (which I do not expect) and the election, I very much look forward to seeing her primaried in 2012 by Dennis Kucinich, among others. Dennis won’t have to re-write his platform one bit, unfortunately. We’ll still be in Iraq, we won’t have universal health care, we won’t have marriage equality, and we won’t be on the road to energy independence.
A Hillary presidency will be used by the rightwing to tarnish the Clinton brand irrevocably, with recession, stagflation, high unemployment, terror attacks, and war. Her presidency, through little fault of her own, will make Jimmy Carter’s look positively successful. And, like Carter, hers will be followed by a “morning in America” re-ascendance of the GOP.
ymmv
From the Face the Nation quote above
Ever hear of Camp Bondsteel?
Like husband, like wife
Darkblack made the Hannity Show!
That just made my night.
-GSD
sporkovat @ 63
Yes that was Maryum who is linked in this post. She is working on the Cholera problem in Iraq.
BigMitch @ 55
There’s gonna be a big market in “nose-holders.”
I think I’ll write me a business plan to corner it.
Do you think the Venture Capitalists will go for it?
Ummm-ummm good! A fortune to be made and it’s all mine. All mine, I tell you!
Along with my basic opposition to leaving any troops in Iraq (except Embassy if the Iraqis would like a US Embassy … hmmm) I am astonished at the idea that removing the combat troops but keeping support troops – to do all the things George already says they are there doing – is a good idea?
The insanity of this on so many levels just baffles me.
And yes, Richardson says no troops but Embassy – and is trying to get the others to answer how many and how long? so far, they all duck.
What is the best idea presented here on FDL?
Jonathan @ 29
Pumpkin head asked about Hsu. Now I ask about Jack Abernathy Ceo Fox TV. James Carville, Richard Ben-Veniste, Alan Dershowitz, Jamie Gorelick, Rupert Murdoch, Pfizer CEO, ceos and more ceos. A progressive Dem does not want the new Democratic president to be beholden to insurance, Rupert Murdoch and BigPharma. I mean really. She really has a lot in common with Hojoe.
TeddySanFran @ 66
Dayam, Teddy, quite the rosy optimist, eh…???
selise @ 51
The Rethugs cultivate outrage over a faux slur (MoveOn quoted Petraeus’ own troops)
And the Dem “leaders” can’t be bothered to attack the Rethugs over the GOP Brownshirts’ violent physical attacks against a dead veteran’s father and young women.
It’s Mourning in America – for the Republic.
TeddySanFran @ 49
Thank God and Goddess. I really want this country to move ahead.
so let me see if I get this… a wallow in a lagoon of cowshit is not as bad as a bellyflop into a trench full of pigshit, so clearly we must “hold our nose” and dive in the cowshit?
nonsense – if you are worried about your moral hygeine, you refrain from either one.
what is one translation of mealymouthed reduced troop levels proposals? = more Air Force missions = more indiscriminate death from the sky.
You support that? try looking at a few photos of the horrific, Guernica-like consequences of airstrikes on civilians, and proudly salute and say “My candidate did that! Go (D) Team!”
Siun @ 71
Can we get this asked at the next debate? When is the next debate, anyway?
katherine Graham Cracker @ 57
The OSM (Old-Stream Media) does things via scripts.
And the script they got says they gotta continue to “pretend” that Junya and the Repugs are not Weasels of the 1st Order (awarded by Dame Thatcher, doncha know?).
When the script changes, the cradle will fall.
Down comes Junya and unfortunately, that’s not all.
Hillary is no leader.. She is following a carefully failed DLC plan of catering to the corporate fascist right and ignoring war crimes, shredding of our constitution, sanity, principal, or reason in governance as a sitting senator.
I say impeach her now so she doesn’t have to face the Hague later with Bush and Cheney.
TeddySanFran @ 56
Is that the view of the Surgeon General. Should be.
You know sometimes you want to do a little reconnaisance. It’s sort of like a challenge to the one’s fortitude like holding breath underwater. About a minute or so is all I can take.
But noone warned me that I might try to slam my fist through the screen.
Hil was attracted to Bill because she saw he had what she wanted but lacked.
sporkovat @ 63
I agree too. The US population was silent while Irak’s civilian water treatment were destroyed in Gulf War I….and silent when US sanctions after GWI ensured the water supply (and health system) would stay broken.
After WWII America and the Allies hung German leaders for “collective punishemant” of innocent civilians.
Blood, blood, blood. Clings to every surface of every Senator who and Congressman who voted for GWII.
And every American who has not spoken out agaist these war crimes – and the US unprovoked war against a soveriegn nation for their oil.
Re the unavailability of chlorine in the wake of the ineffectual chlorine WMDs in semis. Can a modern city with piped water exist without chlorine for long? I’m afraid the casualties from the water supply contamination are higher than reported, especially among the elderly, very young and those already ill.
Thanks for this Siun. Du was talking to gor earlier tonight – says that the Cholera situation in Irak has all the makings of a major catastrophe and Maryam’s fears seem to be being borne out. This is from our latest sitrep (Number 13):
why stay in Iraq other then the OIL?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 13
Um.. please tell me that the shrubbies aren’t actually crazy enough to try and arrest Iran-shrub when he comes to New York are they?
TeddySanFran @ 78
TeddySF,
Ask questions here for the next debate which is Wednesday 9/26 on MSNBC with Mr Punkinhaid the “moderator.” (I know they won’t ask MY question)
punishment, not punishemant.
jeebus – wish I could get spell check to work with the blue “f”
Jonathan @ 72
that we needn’t be victims if we stand up, get informed, spread the word and ATTACK!
Ed*ard Teller @ 84
Cholera epidemic. It’s like the f*ing 19th c. and it’s all our fault. I mean that. I feel we Americans will bear a collective guilt for all this for a long time to come, even though we as citizens were powerless to stop the Chimp. Congress is another story.
O.K. so I am overwrought. G’night all.
CTuttle @ 39
Thanks. I will try to find Jerusalem post article. Haaretz should be following it too. Where did the overall quote come from?
The basic objections to the story in your quote make sense. And we know that there are elements in US and Lik*d that have been trying to scuttle any peaceful progress on anything with anybody. Spooky, scary and sad that high brass in militaries in both countries have been more voices of reason than high civiliarn leadership.
Very scary and very sad the the US media seems to have learned nothing. Or that their corporate masters seem willing to sign on to another disastrous war that I think would sink the GOP for decades should it occur. What will the media corporate masters do when they see their sugar daddy party sink like a stone in the next election after the Dunkirk on the Euphrates that I think will occur after an attack on Iran? Maybe they have gone insane.
Congress next year! that is our hope.
[Mod Note; edited to clear the moderation filters.]
kirk at 83
i screamed, literally, against the invasion of iraq before it occurred
don’t have blood on my hands but have some guilt about not trying to do more with friends and acquaintances to stop the invasion
but not too much guilt
i tried
Blub @ 87
Michael Savage suggested on his Thursday program that they arrest him, try him and hang him at ground zero within minutes of his arrival.
Erdla – thank you for adding more information.
Gang – if you don’t know Erdla, she is a member of the GorillasGuides team as well as a wonderful mom of twins and wife to Du.
Siun @ 71
I agree they want to do the same missions with fewer troops than they have now and which they have not been able to accomplish with the higher troop levels they have now. It is replacing one unrealistic policy with another.
Jonathan @ 82
ahh! a parallel with your posts here?
(now now.)
Siun @ 94
Thanks Erdla.
Mother to two sleepless twins at the moment. :-)
Erdla – this:
It is not yet clear whether the organism is becoming more virulent or the population in this new focus is more susceptible to the disease.
is terrifying.
I’m suggesting folks send more support to the Red Crescent since they seem to always be on the spot – would you agree?
Jonathan, absolutely correct.
Most of the US population was silent – an honorable minority was not.
My bad for the lazy generalization – your good for point it out.
And your great good for raising your voice and joining the good people in the US and around the world who opposed this vast war crime.
[with my writing this sloppy, I think I’m going to stop balog-canning and focus on canning.
peaches await]
kirk @ 83
Aye, the Supreme War Crime under the Nuremburg standard.
Conventional politicking is such a travesty – it’s like they are making plans to begin to someday consider rearranging a few deck chairs – when the rest of the world can see
(1) the Great Ship Iraqi Freedom is actually a monstrous war crime
(2) it is already at the bottom of Davy Jone’s Locker
may @ 96
A disgruntled Hillary supporter? Having a little trouble understanding this one.
Siun @ 99
When do you think Cheney will have Red Crescent put on the list of terrorist organizations? About when the epidemic gets really bad, that’s when. I know – it is bad already, but not by Cheney standards.
ah Erdla – thank them for us since it means you’re awake to stop by here.
They’re the only group that’s everywhere in Irak Siun. They’re also dedicately neutral and have the dead and missing staff and volunteers to prove it.
For those who don’t know what the Red Crescent is in Western Countrys it’s called the Red Cross in Muslim Countrys the same organisation is called the Red Crescent.
Hugh @ 102
no
not advocating one over another
a bit of cultural incomprehension.
Ed*ard Teller @ 84
Chlorine? Sorry we cannot help. Chlorine is a weapon of mass destruction. If we send it to Iraq we are helping insurgents. We will be investigated by Der Heimland Sicherheit.
Siun @ 100
Re your bold . . .
It could be a both/and, rather than either/or.
As if there wasn’t enough misery around the war to begin with.
sporkovat @ 102
Blood blood blood also saturates every brain cell of the bigshot pundits. Everything comes down to either sending in military to kill, or being a helpless pacifist wimp. Why have we become so stupid and brutal minded? The Cheney-Bush-PNAC frame of reference has become the default frame of reference in the national media.
Only alternatie courses towards failure, defeat death and disaster are acceptable. Why? Because if fits into the idiot corporate media script?
Need to pack the House next election. I think the US population will get behind it. Everything is completely rotton and only progressive candidates elected to Congress can avoid another five ten twenty years of pointless endless war that will wreck this country in every way.
rwcole @ 58
The reason she’s ahead is mainly because of the media. There was an article in Slate in 2004 that described the phenomenon of why people might make decisions that may seem to go against any prior inclinations
The point is not that a vote for Kerry was wrong but it’s the social-decision making that influenced people’s decisions. And the reason Hillary may seem to be leading in the polls now is that the media is pushing her and influencing the poll respondents
http://www.slate.com/id/2095993/
I wonder when MSM will quit running ads from Moveon.
CTuttle @ 43
A few days ago, Siun acknowledged Richardson for responding to that effect.
I’ve also seen an Edwards ad where he said much the same thing:
The ties between the damage during GW1 and the Sanctions to the cholera outbreak today really caught my eye in Maryam’s post. We’re seeing the outcome of Bush 41, Clinton and now Bush 43 in Iraq in the most awful way.
marymccurnin @ 111
never
it’s always a matter of $
that’s why it’s so important to give to moveon
Jonathan @ 92
Ditto, I was in during the run-up and I debunked a bunch of the TP’s , ie. the aluminum tubes, Saddam-911 linkages, etc… to my unit members all the while…!!!
mui @ 91
no, you have a heart.
Frank33 @ 107
during WW2 in the Pacific POW camps,
cholera absolutey terrified.from
the first symptom to death could take as little as 24 hrs.
if you weaken,you die
Wigwam – sadly Edwards is only talking about about “combat troops” … and will not explicitly state how many troops he will leave behind.
CT at 115
you were a good troop
marymccurnin @ 111
When they get their orders from corporate owners.
bullies pay no attention to reason….and when filthy lucre is involved its impossible to reason with them them being bushco et al…now iraq is a mess and iraqis are suffering immeasurably and bushco is going on as if nothing untoward is happening… IMPEACH THIS SICK BASTARD!!
wesgpc
Have you checked out Greenwald’s recent posts, like
http://www.salon.com/opinion/g…..index.html
The (D) party has many solid blue areas plugged, areas that might elect someone more progressive, neutralized by neo-con amen corner politicos who can only think in”the Cheney-Bush-PNAC frame of reference” that has caused so much damage.
primaries are great, but long odds. 3rd party organizing also long odds, but promising considering the huge gulf between what most (D)’s offer, the cowshit, and what most people want – end the war, restore the Constitution, protect what is left of the environment, and real health care reform.
SeamusD @ 121
There you go.
Erdla @ 106
thank you.
By the way, heard a short interview with McNerney today. Sounds like he has come to his senses. Kind of hard to figure out his exact position from the short clip, but sounds like he is saying no war funding bill without timelines. Let Bush veto. If Bush tries to use to bash Dems or plays games with troop safety, send him monthly stopgaps, let the country watch him stay his failed course every month from now to election.
If that is what he is saying, that is a good sign. Maybe he saw the light after no reasonable Republicans showed up after the hearings.
may @ 118
If you weake, you die…
Is that the next Repbulican talking point? On Iraq? For US?
Jonathan @ 119
Heh, some in my chain of command didn’t think so…!!! ;-)
Kirk Murphy @ 75
As a Viet Nam vet you cannot imagine how ashamed I am of these two groups.
wesgpc – sorta like Katrina, eh?
The HipHop Caucus drawing those connections a lot.
In the interest of trying to prevent yet more American-sponsored carnage in the Middle East, here’s a heads-up warning about what our Democratic Congress has in store for us this week (this announcement and exchange came on the Senate floor on Friday after the Levin/Reed bill regarding Iraq failed to reach the 60-vote threshold that Levin – and every single other Senator – had agreed to impose on it for passage):
#7 Under 9/21’s Senate at http://thomas.loc.gov/r110/r110.html
As the recent DailyKos recommended diary pointed out, the Lieberman/Kyl resolution is a deliberate, pre-meditated hostile escalation of the propaganda war against Iran. Carl Levin and Harry Reid, as you can see, are already smoothing the way for it, rather than using the hatred of the warmongers and empire builders against them by exerting their “hope” for more warmongering debate as leverage to receive some cooperation from the Republican side for the (alleged) Democratic agenda on Iraq, in return, at a minimum.
And then of course, the Biden (and Brownback and Boxer) resolution endorses Biden’s (and doubtless the Israeli government’s) desired imperial sectarian division and splintering of Iraq, which, while ignoring the almost-unanimously opposed wishes of the Iraqis themselves (98% opposed to a nation divided by sect per the recent national BBC/ABC/NHK poll), will be getting the United States Senate on board with the de facto ongoing policy of our Executive Branch and its private mercenary army in Iraq.
We constantly need to ask this question:
What do the Iraqi people want?
.
.
.
PS
They want us out fu*king NOW.
re pow wow’s @131: f*ck comity
sporkovat @ 123
I prefer to be optimistic. The progressives did better than expected in last election. The establishement Dems are reaching a level of stupidity so rank they having harder time of getting things their way in primaries. Voters will be more receptive now than previously after watching this degraded and disgraceful show. As I noted above, some new progressives who looked waffly, now sound like they’re getting their common sense back (McNerney).
First job is to get enough in Senate and House to prevent war parties from leading country to disaster. That would be a BIG victory.
Courts, any Democrat, current war-jerks in Congress will listen if people shout. Congresscrtters will certainly pay attention if voters make it clear their jobs might be in real danger if they don’t straighten up and regain their sanity. It only takes a one or two bigshots to go down for them to get the message. I think it is do-able.
Just watched the first episode of Ken Burn’s “The War” His next documentary should be “The Collapse” chronicalling the decline of American democracy. A lazy and complacent populace, a greedy and venal ruling class, a pampered and priviledge media elite, all the makings for the decline.
wesgpc @ 126
i don’t know
it was the saying of the survivors
i’m surprized you haven’t heard it.
no political party in Aust would dare use that phrase.
if you are at all interested
the biography of
Weary Dunlop
and the drawings of
Jack Chalker
will give some idea of what i am talking about.
I want to ask Clusterfuck why he thinks it’s fine to send other people’s children to fight and die in Iraq, while he ran away from Vietnam.
may @ 136
You are right of course. I was in hyper-cynical mode.
punaise @ 132
I could tell a whole lot of fuckery was coming when Reid said last week over three hundred amendments were being considered.
pow wow, do yo have a link to the kos diary you mentioned?
Eureka Springs @ 139
I’m not at all surprised that 300-plus amendments were being considered. Every Senator wants to get some time in the spotlight.
My confusion about the Dems is clearing up. They are Repug Lite. They will never do what needs to be done.
Streets anyone?
pow wow @ 130
The Democrats are like figures in a cartoon who light the fuse to a bomb to see what will happen to it. When it explodes, they will claim to be as surprised as anyone.
punaise @ 133
It’s an outright betrayal of everything that Nov 2006 was supposed to accomplish. The Dem leadership is totally capitulating, they are committing to the strategy of letting the war/occupation get worse so that they may get more votes in Nov 2008. Makes me sick
Hugh @ 142
no one could have imagined …
marymccurnin @ 140
Did you see the article in Octobers Harpers calling for general strike?
I didn’t but now I do, Eureka @ 139. Here it is:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…..2231/58938
Hugh … exactly!
and I did appreciate your opening comment … quel suprise eh?
SouthernDragon @ 129
SouthernDragon, I believe you – and believe both groups of bullies are not representative of VN vets.
I also believe that just one occasion upon which VN vets who agree with you show up to “meet” the bullies will keep the bullies away for a long, long time.
Eureka Springs @ 145
Heard about it. But will read it.
Ed*ard Teller @ 94
Don’t you love it when right wing water carriers wax nostalgiac for the grunt, cudgel and cannibal era of human cultural evolution?
Maybe New York progressives could do a web cam of Ahmadinejad in a hotel room watching live as folks deliver a wreath for him and the people of Iran to the WTC site.. I can see it now, Ahmadinejad says move it a bit to left..no, a bit higher, ah that’s perfect..the people of Iran thank you..)
Siun @ 119
Hi, Siun. Always a pleasure.
Not sure it’s really wise for anyone to say precisely what they’ll do, as the election is a year away, and the inauguration even more. Nobody knows what the situation will be when the next Administration takes office-it may all be over before then, or we may be bogged down in a land war with Iran. Thus, nobody really knows what they will do a year from now. Edwards has been an outspoken critic of the war and the Administration, and I don’t believe he will pursue this war one sec longer than possible.
Of course, as an Edwards supporter, I want to believe that…and I hope people will continue to ask him the question.
Kindest regards to you, and the Guides.
Blub @ 150
Nostalgic? Michael Savage would have to look FORWARD to the grunt, cudgel, and cannibal era.
marymccurnin @ 149
I hate to say it, but at this point a general strike is absolutely IMO the only course of action that’ll force the issue to a point where action becomes a possbility.. but what crisis would catalyze a general strike?
RonD,
The problem that nobody is talking about is where those reduced numbers of troops will be. if you do some googling you’ll see that that that reduced number of troops will be in bases. Every single one of those bases is in populated areas and every single one of those areas have strong resistance activity. They are also at the end of a long and very fragile MSR. The one that comes up through the south from Kuwait.
It’s idiot talk by politicians and pundits who cant read a damn map.
Very important point Erdla … maps and understanding and where those troops would be placed.
Erdla @ 155
Exactly..That’s why I can’t get too worked up about “residual troops”. Once the occupation starts to unravel, there will not be a number of troops above zero.
The voters made a pointed suggestion in the last election that was not rude or loud enough to shake the corporate and warmonger story line peddled through the big media. It will take another wave of progressive victories, a couple of shockers in open seat elections in supposedly red districts (and I am tired of slandering that color), something like a Lieberman losing to a Lamont in the general election.
If can get two of those three next time, I think things will happen. Forget complaining about the establishment Dems. They are losers. If we cannot beat incumbents, then swamp them with new blood from open seats.
We are seeing an exhausted and corrupt political order ending. Question is what will take its place? The big money and warmongers have long time horizons, disappointment in one election cycle or Congress does not bother them, and we will lose if we let something like that bother us.
If country goes down an endless war path, it will not survive. Not morally, not politically, not economically. For one example, what nutcase will join the military if it means a career of killing and dying in pointless endless wars overseas, with only reward being meaningless and empty exhortations to jingoism? Only to be thrown away upon return to normal life in a politically oppressive state with war profits going to rich old liars.
If the GOP and Dem war parties get their way, it will be true disaster for the US. If that disaster can be staved off, then that would be a big victory. And it is a big challenge. Just listen to the infantile idiotic talk in the corporate media. We can only hope the public has gotten disgusted and is no longer listening. Or at least open to sensible talk when primaries and general election come around.
Peterr @ 153
not likely, but I get to go ding to the originator of the term. Been waiting for it, Peterr…
Ed*ard Teller @ 159
Thanks, ET.
Erdla @ 155
True, Erdla, thank you for your comments! That MSR would be the primary focal point! It is asinine to consider a large contingent of ’support’ troops without the inherent combat troops they support… I don’t care how ‘hardened’ the bases are, they’re still vulnerable and menacing to the local populace…!!!
Erdla @ 155
Agreed, a reduced force would in all likelihood be unable to even protect itself, or defend its supply lines. It’s primary function would be political-to enable the President to say he’s not losing the war(right up until he does). As for what will happen to the forces left behind, what I think will happen is here:
Dien Bien Phu, Iraq.
Peterr @ 153
And so the mighty Deciderer contrived a great doing
With false promises of safe conduct,
did he lure the evil Persian King to the mighty citadel
did he seize him from his horse
and did he humiliate him before all the warriors
And then the mighty Deciderer did drag him by the hair,
behind his golden chariot,
to the Place of Infamy
and there,
before the sight of the gods,
did he hang him from a high scaffold :P
.. from the ballad of Michael Savage
OK, fine, I admit it, I’m a lousy writer
hiya y’all!!
Has anyone seen a projection of the number of troops that will be available to be “left behind”, year by year?
marymccurnin @ 141
Streets.
Hiya, Snarkassandra!
I understand why Americans use that analogy so often RonD but over here (Europe) the analogy that’s used more often is the Soviets in Afghanistan with the U.S. forces this time being in the same losing situation that the Soviets let themselves walk into with eyes wide open.
RonD @ 162
Wow RonD – great work.
Teddy’s up!
Evening, everyone.
Peterr @ 140
300 amendments to the HoJo/Kyl Iran bill?
Hillary just makes me ill. She strutted around the shows this morning, acting like her new position on funding the war was somehow groundbreaking, when in fact it should be the default position for ANY Democrat.
As usual, she’s late to the table and only takes a position when the coast is clear. She lacks the courage to be a true leader.
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 171
Chuck Grassley’ll manage to turn the measure into an agricultural subsidy bill, Ted Stevens will get a bridge or two out of it as well as dissolve the Justice Dept, and Larry Craig will sneak in the demolition of a certain Minneapolis public bathroom.
RonD @ 162
Erdla @ 168
I can certainly see the appropriateness of the comparison-an occupying imperial power adrift in a sea of hostile locals…but, through the ‘Stans, the USSR had a border with Afghanistan, through which a strategic withdrawal could be conducted…with nowhere to go, other than running the gauntlet to Kuwait, the US has nowhere to run, and is thus far more vulnerable to being cutoff.
It has become(is still becoming?)plain to see that during the 2000 WH election run G.W.Bush was given entirely way too much “free mileage” to skim over,misdirect and remain not taken apart and closely looked at.
Clearly there was a concerted effort on the part of his supporters and backers to see the election play out that way.
All Americans have suffered because of this.
Nearly 7,000 Americans are now dead between 9/11 having taken place and G.W.Bush deciding to invade and occupy Iraq in March 2003.Counts of American injured/maimed hover these days somewhere in the 30,000 to 35,000 range.
As for dead Iraqis,injured Iraqis and Iraqis now forced to become refugees the numbers are now in the millions.
G.W.Bush is not done with Iraq. He wants to stay and kill more Americans and Iraqis.
Is this really what Hillary seeks then too?
The lies,deceptions and incompetence of G.W.Bush have rendered him likely to be the worst ever(thus far)to have been American President.
Whoever follows him should not echo his poor leadership,inability to be truthful or in any way be willing to play to the deeply entrenched rot and decay of WashDC players and gamers of either the DEM or GOPer persuasion.
Hillary surely is being given lots of free mileage these days.
Where is her record of leadership on Iraq in the U.S.Senate or within the DC DEM party in general? Is it being held in reserve? Must wait until the “right time”?
Where is Hillarys leadership record?
Where during the past five years has Hillary ever decided to grab the flag of leadership and lead a full throated attack on Bush/Cheney Iraq policies or go after the feckless DC DEMS or DC GOPers in WashDC over Iraq?
Where?
So one now is left to wonder what part of Hillary have we not yet seen?
If…If she should remain the DC DEMS and the DEMS Party favorite and somehow swim through several months more of DEM primary exposure and survive to take the DEM nod for the run to WH Oval Office is she suddenly going to become what she has not been thus far?
If indeed she should win in November 2008 the WH are we going to see some hidden leadership suddenly emerge from Hillary?
I am not convinced she has real leadership to begin with or would ever find it if the Oval Office and the WH were hers.
The American invasion and occupation of Iraq is some damn bad business that clearly has been wrong on the ethics,morals and politics since the first day of The Deciders Shock and Awe Attack.
Americans are no better than Hitlers armies of conquest for what they have done and still do in Iraq.
Anyone who fails to see that is fully craven.
So where is Hillary on Iraq?
Based on her record and what she says or more importantly does not say or says in the small print Hillary is not where I can or would want to support her.
Combine her record with the current DC DEM run Congress and it plainly points to some very bad likely outcomes over Iraq.
I dont think Hillary has truly earned being in the WH as President of the United States.
Senator Clintons record does not support the premise.
Candidate Clintons words do not support the premise.
wesgpc @ 158
My concern remains that the public, generally unsophisticated in perceiving ‘fallacious argument,’ might well embrace demogogic rhetoric – as they too often have of late – because they will have little to ‘believe in.’
Waiting for election ‘milestones’ would be a mistake, compelling, comprehensible and hopefull, as well as addressing dire current need and potential catastrophe should be out there now.
pow wow @ 146
It is important to be a sophisticated wise guy realpolitiker who thinks Machiavellian these days, in order to be considered a Very Serious Person by the likes of Dim Tim etc. So I reread the Prince last week and saw something I had forgotten. An interesting point Machiavelli makes in that book is, that if you want to rule any principality, you absolutely must have the support of the people. If you didn’t have the support of the people, then forget it, you are done, it will fail, go home, period end of story, The End.
It is there half a dozen times in the book. Read it and see. I wonder how come the Very Serious People never talk about that? Have they really read the Prince, or are they just bloody minded depraved frauds who actually don’t know much of anything?
It would seema relevant point, since the current Cheney-Bush stay the course policy has support of neither the US nor the Iraqi population. And, excpet in Kurdistan, the majority of both Sunni and Shia population in Iraq approve of attacks on US troops.
Machiavelli, would sit down that think about that very seriously. The Very Serious People seem clueless.
(By the way, I am one of those who thinks The Prince does not portray Machivelli’s true beliefs -it was written to please the Very Serious People of his day, get his ass out of trouble, and a number of passages might contain some dry snark rather than serious advice. Read his Discourses on Livy for what I think are his truer beliefs in support of rambucntious and rather free republics. Anyway, even Machiavelli wrote opinions that would get him kicked off he Very Serious People list in todays US. And Machiavelli was no saint, even at his best. So either the VSP today are very bad indeed or very stupid, or both.
Thanks Kirk.
David W. Bartoo @ 177
Yes, should be out there now too. My comments was directed at what I thought was some defeatist talk about impossbility of changing anything.
Oh yes RonD as I say I understand why the Dien Bien Phu analogy is used and you can validly use either one and like the French the being cut off and then various bases being overrun scenario is very likely.
The thing that always strikes me is the similarity in complaints – you see quite often compaints being made that the various groups won’t stand and fight. Odierno says this type of thing quite a lot. It’s exactly like the French used to complain in Vietnam “if only they’d give us a ‘proper’ battle and fight a ‘real’ war” we’d win. So the Vietnames obligingly gave them one – at a place called Dien Bien Phu.
RonD @ 175
Ever read about the Soviet evacuation of Afghanistan?? It was not pretty, ambushes in the mountain passes, stragglers throats cut ten feet from their trucks, nasty. Their army never recovered from the losses inflicted by the Afghani guerillas.
Yes Seamus I have – when I was a cadet it was required reading :-)
hi!
Fisk covers the withdrawal from Afghanistan in Great War … it is not a pretty picture.
Another reason his book is always on my top recommended list (and thanks to mfi for getting me to read it the first time)
Joe K.’s C. @ 171 -
300 amendments to the FY 2008 Defense Authorization Bill which is the bill that was up for debate on the floor of the Senate last week (and to which Iraq amendments were and are being proposed, including the Lieberman/Kyl Sense of the Senate Iran resolution) and which will continue on the floor into at least part of this week (in advance of the Defense Appropriations Bill which will come to the floor after passage of the Authorization Bill). The Authorization Bill is defense policy, not funding, while the Appropriations bill funds our massive national security state with actual funding allocations (except, curiously, for our occupation of Iraq, which will be coming down the pike through a $197 BILLION dollar “emergency” supplemental if the House decides to continue to occupy and force the dissolution of the “sovereign” nation of Iraq, as the cholera spreads…).
[You know it really is too bad that Nancy Pelosi’s obsessive focus on caring for ‘the children’ applies only to ‘the children’ of United States citizens, and not to the innocent lives of children in Iraq who are being brutalized and terrified by the money and the weapons that Nancy Pelosi’s House keeps pouring into Iraq, with nary a word spoken about those on the receiving end of her political calculations…]
Most of these amendments seem to get negotiated, discarded, and debated behind closed doors now, by the chair and ranking member of the pertinent committee (Levin and McCain in this case), and then cobbled together – one for you, and one for me style – before being brought to the floor and presented en masse as a ‘managers’ package of amendments, often by unanimous consent. Then a far smaller number of more controversial amendments will be offered on the floor on an individual basis for actual votes pro and con, the chosen amendments again determined by the bill managers and by Harry Reid and his leadership, so as to ’save time’ and “dispose” of the bill in due course.
Keep in mind, this is a candidate for president of the United States, who can’t say that invading Iraq was a mistake, because if she does, then she’ll have to say that her vote to authorize it, was a mistake.
Her stand on Iraq is pure-ass latex. One size fits all. A couple of months before the surge, she was saying it was a great idea.
She’s parroted the bushCo obscenity that Iraq is a hellhole because the Maliki “government” won’t crack down on the insurgents and the militias.
Which is one HELL of an exculpatory trial baloon for the warpimps.
Thanks for helping pump the gas into it, Hillary.
And, the question of “can she be elected?”, is alive and VERY relevant, but for some reason, NO one wants to talk about it.
Which is a question
I have three hungry males to feed in a little while – so I will say goodbye.
Thanks for highlighting the unfolding Cholera crisis Siun.
*poof*
Just fed one hungry young lady here … bon appetit Erdla and family! and thanks for adding such good info!
No way she gets my vote in the primary. Obviously I will have to vote for her in November. My vote goes to a candidate that will get us out of Iraq. Move-on has brought out the true colors of many in the Senate and will get my money as will Blue America. Not one dime to Hillary.
wvblueguy! thanks for supporting Blue America!
Two resolutions condemning speech! I missed that. And HRC voted up on one of them. What a weasel.
Just a reminder: MoveOn.org deserves a lot of credit for controlling the message on behalf of HRC’s 2006 re-election campaign, assuring that voters’ attention did not stray into areas that might’ve revealed just how unfit she was for office as representative of the Democratic left. The organization is toxic to progressives.
Shorter Hillary Clinton: “I voted three times to give the president unbridled authority. How could I have known that he would actually use it?”
I’ll give you a clue: You can’t trust a man with a hard-on.
Gnome de Plume @ 22
After she’s done mincing and parsing it’s a low-cal diet of nothing…nothing at all.
It’s a diet of hot air.
You know this post initially fired up my insides, which were a more than a little dampened by the recent displays of Democratic spinelessness. My hopes have been further hammered by rumors the Democrats are working to give the Telecom industry retrograde immunity from prosecution for their role in the illegal Dic. Bush Spy Operation.
This post picked me up for a few hours, but then the implications began to sink in. If we truly believe the fascist tendencies will not be undone by an opposition party that has such a mandate from the people it supposes to represent, then every breath we exhaust here in the name of Republican or election or party is one which would have been better spent on the backside of a gazoo.
I too am coming to the realization that our efforts and our votes and our actions are not going to soon undo what has been done. We are on a road to fascism and permanent war, and there does does not seem to be anybody between the marginalized “fringes” willing or able to take an exit ramp.
But I think the synthesis of what we hoped would happen and what is happening is not to push the goal post into the distant future, although that will be required if we continue the same motions. Rather we should examine ourselves and find unexplored avenues and untapped resources. Let’s take a generation worth of energy and creativity and education and compress them into these coming months.
I am not preaching here. I am just a little man who ran to the other side of the world, but I have been, like so many of you have been profoundly frustrated by with our country’s post-9.11 incarnation, and I am speaking from my heart.
I’m coming home soon.
Like Ben Harper sang, I believe in a better way. We really are the people, and I still believe at the end of the day, we all have the power to affect the needed change, to insure our great country remains the one we pledged allegiance to every morning before school.
We will have to answer to our children for actions. If we really believe that we as a people are not pushing hard enough against the machine to put it back into its its checked and balanced place, then instead of talking about future generations, we need to figure what we are going to do tomorrow.
What can we do defeat the enemy that has stolen our flag in the name of security?
This coming election is the best opportunity we have to undo what has been done.
What is the hammer that will crack the stone?
Note: My email is john@djdejavoodoo, I give it in case anyone wants to tell me how naive I am, and my site is down.
rwcole @ 42
Aside from personal slander I don’t know what else we can do.
We’ve shown she’s on all sides of the Iraq issue.
We’ve shown she takes illegal campaign contributions.
We’ve shown she doesn’t really plan to do anything on health care reform — but has a plan which looks like a cross between Mitt Romney’s and John Edwards.
We’ve shown she has no great plan or ideas.
We’ve shown she doesn’t really support unions.
We’ve shown she will say absolutely anything to get elected.
So, there’s poor character, lack of ideas, Machiavellian use of issues, corruption. What else does the public need to know? Too much eyeliner, maybe?
rwcole @ 58
I wonder how much her “good week” cost. Running a good campaign is important to know somebody is intelligent enough (ask McCain). But, what she’s saying sounds an awful lot like the Republicans.
What do the public think she is? Somehow I’ll bet good money, if the Republicans had left me any, that they think she’s a ‘moderate’ Dem.
I guess you’d have to say that her ‘good week’ was another way of saying the media prevented the public from learning anything about her.
Eureka Springs @ 80
Hey Jonathan, this is a great idea, preemptive impeachment!
Impeach now or forever hold your peace.
I say the best idea isn’t exactly FDL’s. It’s simple: let’s leave Iraq to avoid losing our souls and going to Hell for having killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people … people who might’ve been our friends if we had let them.
31tudor @ 86
Isn’t it amazing that after a while blood and oil look exactly the same?
“What is the hammer that will crack the stone?,” I asked.
Garret Keizer has an answer.
Thanks to selise @ 15 and Siun @ 16 and SeamusD @ 27 (and probably others later in the thread whose comments I haven’t seen yet) for setting me straight about the two amendments and the two votes. There are so many brush fires every day that I can’t keep up with all of them.
RonD @ 162 says As for what will happen to the forces left behind, what I think will happen is here:
Dien Bien Phu, Iraq.
The linked essay contains this quote: “Amateurs talk tactics, while professionals talk logistics.” All the policies of this maladministration are fueled by the murky mental processes of conservative chickenhawks in think tanks remarkable for the dearth of informed thought and foresight being exercised therein. With an already overextended military, they’re saber-rattling, for God’s sake. ‘Cause they got plenty of bombs and can always hire them some mercs.
Erdla @ 168
Both analogies (French in Indochina and Soviets in Afghanistan–oh, and let’s add Americans in Viet Nam) are great–have any of the neocons ever actually read any history? Do they read anything other than one another’s blatherings?