Bush and Cheney have another tinkle and weep party…this time for the Freepers.
Condi, Karen Hughes, everyone was there.
Unless “American flag as ascot” made a splash on the Paris runways this year and everyone forgot to tell me, let’s just say that those in attendance are as out of touch with modern fashion as they are with reality and leave it at that.
I realize the Republicans are a lot more fond of their base than the Democrats are for obvious reasons — they have a willingness to repeat anything you tell them without thinking first and a fondness for just sort of mindlessly slavering at the feet of authority — but let’s harken back to Freeperland at the time General Abizaid said a nuclear Iran wasn’t the end of the world:
What an idiot he is.
…general, you moron [...] This guy is the biggest @ss clown the military has produced since John Murtha.
I think General Abizaid’s ethnicity (I know, he’s of Arab, not Persian, extraction, but from the Mid-East nonetheless) is playing him false on this one.
Total idiot!
This is a great example of the narrow vision of many military commanders…
I guess this is okay because Abizaid was retired at the time, and Petraeus wasn’t. Still doesn’t explain why 72 Senators with nothing better to do than pick their noses and whistle didn’t vote to condemn Abizaid’s successor, Fallon, for calling Petraeus an ass-kissing little chickenshit.”
I’m sure someone in a really loud, ugly scarf would be willing to explain it to me.
(h/t Americablog)
Updae: Democrats.com has more on Gathering of Eagles, another class bunch invited to the weep’n'pee.
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Jane!
The commander of U.S. military forces in the Middle East does not believe current tensions with Iran will lead to war and urges for greater emphasis on dialogue and diplomacy.
“This constant drum beat of conflict is what strikes me which is not helpful and not useful,” Adm. William Fallon said in an interview with Al-Jazeera television, which made a partial transcript available Sunday.
Jane!!!
Did you hear the Scott Pelli interview with Ahmendinijad? What an aggressive asshole Pelli came off as.
Even if Ahmendinijad is an asshole, he came across as more reasoned and less hysterical then Pelli. That interview was disgusting. Shame on 60 Minutes. They are now officially a part of the propaganda push to attack Iran.
nothing like some freeper bigotry for evening entertainment
SanderO @ 4
You didn’t believe Rather? Do you really think Sumner Redstone would run a fair and balanced outfit?
I hope Rather wins his suit and the suckers have to fess up to their lies in court… and pay big time. He’s gonna give the settlement to indy media. Good on him.
I don’t believe the MSM. For news I rely on others sources… especially Pacifica and DemocracyNow. Redstone admitted he is a partisan repuke.
A little early for an OT…but..
But Schumer’s good buddy:
(snip)
But in a series of private meetings arranged by chief of staff Josh Bolten prior to the nomination, Mukasey, 66, reassured top hard-liners, such as Federalist Society executive Leonard Leo and former A.G. Edwin Meese. According to three sources, who asked not to be named discussing the private meetings, Mukasey said that he saw “significant problems” with shutting down Guantánamo Bay and that he understood the need for the CIA to use some “enhanced” interrogation techniques against Qaeda suspects. Mukasey also signaled reluctance with naming a special prosecutor to investigate Bush-administration misconduct, according to one participant.
(snip)
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20…../newsweek/
As Jane would say “Just shoot me”.
*
Scott Adams, the creator of Dilbert, had this to say about the nutty decider yesterday at his blog:
Ahmadinejad believes his role is to pave the way for the coming of the Twelfth Imam. That’s a primitive apocalyptic belief! I thank Jesus I do not live in a country led by a man who believes in that sort of bullshit. Imagine how dangerous that would be, especially if that man had the launch codes for nuclear weapons.
I’ll really start worrying when the number of Bush supporters dwindles to that apocolyptic magic number of 144,000…
I think the Admiral ought to be called in front of the Congress to answer the questions that were so obviously way beyond Petraeus’ pay grade! No reason for him to talk from so far away. Even Petraeus told the Senators to ask Fallon. So they need to do that, don’t they.
What I can’t figure out is, why some people seemed to realize right after the Move on ad that this was a matter of freedom of political speech, but by the next day, all talk of freedom of speech seemed to have dissipated. Chris Matthews for instance, said on-air that for him it’s a matter of free speech issue, but I don’t believe I heard a word about free speech by the next day. While I’m sure someone had a little chat with Chris, and he was restrained from going the “wrong” route by either his corporate sponsors or the channel or media owners, or both, I can’t figure out who has that talk with Senators. I doubt that it’s their constituents, so who?
Ed*ard Teller @ 11
or when Lord Cheneymort starts walking around with a snake named Nagini wrapped around his neck… :)
So good, really good, to know that Joey the Liarman and his good friends have got their priorities straight. Goodness know what would happen if they paid any attention….
Any attention to this….
at all.
Perhaps take a look at this.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..65507.html
Oklahoma kiddo @ 2
As a twenty year Army vet, I find it refreshing to see some pushback to Darth Cheney’s evil designs, the current ‘bent spear’ fiasco should create a further blowback, personally, I think Darth was involved as opposed to it being a massive collapse in N security procedures…! God help us all!!!
completely OT
got a cap for giving through Act Blue
it says, IMPEACH CHENEY (in white) ? (in red)
why the question mark?
sort of ruins the cap for me
OT and on a more relaxing note . . . .
Quick!
What’s the microbrew capital of the world?
That is, which city has more microbreweries and brewpubs than any other city?
If you’re on the East Coast, you probably don’t know.
(Hint, it is in the state with the highest percentage of beer sold in the state being microbrew – 11%.)
Department of Useless Facts.
OT/ alert.
The NYT attacks MoveOn advertisement, calling it a
“low below” to a soldier.
low they name is nytimes
http://www.nytimes.com/reuters…..media.html
whooo boy…none of these people look any too happy I might add except Condi with a white suit …ahem…Karen Hughes looks ready for a dose of Z*l*ft…a bit worn around the edges.
BlueStateRedHead @ 19
they’re also saying that they accidentally undercharged MoveOn for the ad. Somebody made a few calls…
Oh this is hysterical… the new red scare… Call HUAC hearings pronto.
Ed*ard Teller @ 11
Didn’t Charles Manson have that ballpark number in mind, also?
Oh, wait, that was multiplication, not reduction.
Jebus doesn’t need to call the chosen home for Bush to flip the switch and get his End Times on. That’s what he has Cheney’s advice for.
I have to say I love that vid of HRC with Chris Wallace. Good job, Senator.
I wonder if that Angelwood person got the Preznit to sign her flag/ascot — a double violation of the Flag Code would really make her day!
Does anybody else remember hippies gettin’ busted for having the flag sewn on their (our) jeans? What has happened to America that people can wear the flag to the White House and no one sez, “Um, Angelwood, dear, that’s just not done, you know?”
Ignorant, ugly freepers, all of ‘em.
144,000 includes all the dead–we may be way over quota if Shrub’s gonna go.
I think it might be time to subpoena former members of the Office of Special Plans.
Sorry, OT, but, RIP Marcel Marceau!!! 8-(
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09…..ref=slogin
darkblack @ 22
Cheney for advice – surely you mean the burning shrub, not Jeebus…
Star Wars T-Shirts were all the rage!
CT,
I’ve probably asked before, but what did you do in the army?
CTuttle @ 27
he’s in heaven, training a new cohort of angels how to deal with the upcoming wave of Alaska politicians who didn’t know how to keep their mouths shut. naw, they’re not going the same place as the divine Marceau…
rwcole @ 25
but here’s a question.. what’s that number-on-the-forehead thing that’s supposed to happen to us after the whole armageddon thing begins? how’s that supposed to work? Homeland Security got all of the technology all worked out somehow?
A.Citizen @ 14
grrr
Here’s an interesting article.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new…..cer219.xml
MACKINAC ISLAND, Mich. — Republican presidential candidates can’t be any more clear: President Bush isn’t welcome on the campaign trail.
Competing to succeed him, top GOP candidates Rudy Giuliani, Mitt Romney, Fred Thompson and John McCain barely utter Bush’s name. They essentially ignore the lame-duck president, or give him only passing credit, as they rail against the status quo and promise to fix problems he hasn’t solved.
“We all know Americans want change,” said McCain, an Arizona senator, explaining the aversion to aligning with Bush. “I give him credit for a number of things but I think the fact is Americans are turning the page, including our Republican primary voters.”
They ain’t exactly fallin all over theirselves ta name airports after this political giant are they?
Clearly the Cheney-Bush-Rove gang have captured the Repbulican party through developing an extreme reactionary and militant wingnut base, and now the base has captured them. So I hope when Dems are on the teevee point this out very aggressively. After they are charged with being partisan for calling Cheney-Bush what it is (incompetent and criminal, extremist and dishonest, antidemocratic, etc., etc.), the Dems should emphasize that they are waging a very generous and selfless non-partisan crusade to save the GOP from itself. Which now means not voting for the GOP until it purges itself of the Cheney-Bush-Rove elelment.
Man, what a wreck the GOP has become. Schwarzenegger recently gave a speech to the the CA GOP trying to sell moderation. The interviews with the delegates I heard on the radio after the speech were hilarious -nothing but griping about how the Gube is advocating that the CA GOP abandon its core values. Now in TPM today I read Romney tried a similar tack with a GOP primary audience. One poor loney sane person clapped for a moment before being drowned out by the defeaning slence of everyone else. I hope that person takes a clue and goes independent.
Maybe I am a hopeless fool, but seems to me that this next election is a historic opportunity to make a read dent in the corrupt system. People are so disgusted, the the GOP hase become so insane, I think that voters can become energized by the House races. There, people can see themselves making a difference.
The presidential race is out of control, what with the primary system breaking down. So it’s foolish to count on that. But if can get people energized about making a difference in House races, can we have the odd situation of the presumptive bighots political celebs ridiing ont he coat tails of the congressional candidates? I hope so.
rwcole @ 26
This is true, 144,000 includes some that are already dead. How many is not known. Could be a lot, a few or a moderate amount, but certainly the number includes some dead. That’s why Jehova’s Witnesses pitch the new heaven and the new earth. The earth is to be transformed into an idyllic place for Witnesses to spend the afterlife (that is after the resurrection, of course).
Jonathan @ 30
Numerous jobs, Commo Chief and Combat Engineer Squad Leader were my primary official titles at various times…!!!
Blub @ 20
scoundrels
Blub
That’s the mark of the beast. If yer still around- you can pony up an take yer number- or say “Hell No”. If you refuse the mark well ya get another go at heaven.
Ed*ard Teller @ 28
Cheney’s in back, with the megaphone and the empty jerrycan…It’s not easy maintaining other people’s delusions.
;>)
Why can’t Hillary let go and be herself everywhere, like she did with Chris Wallace? Wow, that was funny. I don’t think I’ve ever seen her more natural.
I think that Shrub would have a better chance if he let himself get eaten by a Lion- just lookin after his eternal soul.
CT — Thanks!
Shrub,s competing with Thousands of christian martyrs- how’s he gonna stand out?
on the whole 144,000 thing, has anybody ever tried to count the number of shrub Cowboys or whatever that inner circle donor level club of his is called.. I wouldn’t put it past these people if they sold precisely 144,000 subscriptions :) Now THAT would be funy
BlueStateRedHead @ 19
Darth made a specific point about the “discounted” rate charged by the “liberal New York Times” iirc. Betcha Mary Matalin called Clark Hoyt, their new public editor, and gave him hell.
Jonathan @ 44
De nada, Sir!!! ;-)
Sorry I missed the discussion on the Jeebus machine. Here’s my contribution: Yesterday, I spent (nearly) the whole day praying. Today, the Yankees, and the Mets won, and the Red Sox lost.
Coincidence?
Actually, yes.
Well the Virgin Mary has one of them seats nailed down- an probably one fer St. Peter–then you’ve got all the other thousands of saints. I’d say that the seats are runnin low.
one thing i think about when i come on FDL, which i love, is how well FDLers (including me) do in trying to understand (like, really understand) the array of enemies
Blub @ 47
Bush Pioneers = Shrub Cowboy = Arbusto Caballero
Jonathan @ 17
i think the idea is to get people asking themselves that question.
anyway, i love my cap. and it goes great with my T-shirt.
yes, jane, i am also “out of touch with modern fashion”… but at least i know it. *g*
rwcole @ 51
hah.. well, we mainline Protestants stopped accepting new saints after about 1520 so we may have a few more seats for sale
There’s such a thing as “modern fashion”?
Why didn’t anyone SAY anything?
So what color of golf shorts and golf shirts should I be wearing? With or without alligators?
BigMitch @ 49
The Angels and Indians have clinched their divisions, and, the Cardiac Sox have clinched a playoff berth… Hmmm… will it be the WC, or the East title…??? ;-)
rwcole @ 51
Absolutely. Plus one each for St. Reagan and St. Dubya.
this post is a good segue to the previous thread…. and now we see em all in 1 place hehehehehe
Not to mention all the lovely gooper first ladies- they’ve gotta go to paradise- and they’ll need people to do their hair and nails.
Gawd! They even call themselves freepers.
About the link … wanna see something scary?
How ’bout something really scary?
Jonathan @ 51
I like to think of it as my personal mission…!!! 8-)
And Darth has been busy:
Newsweek Magazine reported Sunday that Vice President Richard Cheney may have considered a plan for Israeli missile strikes against an Iranian nuclear site in an effort to draw a military response from Iran, which could in turn spark a U.S. offensive against targets in the Islamic Republic.
Citing two unnamed sources the magazine called knowledgeable, the magazine quoted David Wurmser, until last month Cheney’s Middle East advisor, as having told a small group of people that “Cheney had been mulling the idea of pushing for limited Israeli missile strikes against the Iranian nuclear site at Natanz – and perhaps other sites – in order to provoke Tehran into lashing out.”
So, what are the odds that the almost hushed up attack on Syria was a scratched attempt at this. Thus, the lame explanations, including the so-called Korean evidence. I’d like to find out how many gallons of JP-4 each of the wingtanks recovered from Turkish territory normally holds, and which IDF squadrons were involved in the “raid.”
john in sacramento @ 61
Shooter, the Freeper-in-chief
TeddySanFran @ 25
IIRC, it was Abbie Hoffman who was busted for wearing a flag shirt, fought it on free speech grounds and won. As always, Abbie knew how to p*ss the powers that be off.
Elliott @ 33
***
A. Citizen & All: Maybe this is a dumb question, but if Congress had the four missing votes tomorrow to phase out the war, why would Bush be required (except after a long legal fight) to pay them any attention? Couldn’t/wouldn’t he just ignore their wishes, the way he’s done the subpoenas, etc.?
rwcole @ 59
Dang, think about all those trophies… Hmmm… Is any one of them born within the same generation as their husbands…???
john in sacramento @ 61
They borrowed the first guy from any typical GOP gathering in my neighborhood. They borrowed the second guy from satan.
rwcole @ 60
somehow I don’t think the nativist majority in the Pioneers’ membership will allow admission for their wives’ undocumented maids. The ladies who lunch will just have to make do.
Guy in the photo looks like Adolph- naw- couldn’t be!!
Ken Burns’ World War II documentary is coming on my PBS station here.
Ed*ard Teller @ 63
here’s a place to start learning. i spent a coupla hours this morning and came away unsure as ever.
rwcole @ 44
Just to be secure, in that event let’s bless the lion shit…Safety first in ecclesiastical matters, I say.
;>)
Blub
Yeah- and some of the best hair people are Gay—who the hell’s gonna dress the little darlings?
OMG, just saw the 60 minutes interview. How obnoxious was Steve croft?
“it’s an established fact that Iran weapons are killing US soldier….”
OH YEAH? SAY WHO?
THE CRIMINALS WHO TOLD US IT WAS AN “ESTABLISHED FACT” THAT SADDAM HAD WMDS? BLTS?
Give me a break.
What Bullshit. I was steamed.
And Iran interview on 60 minutes, JUST ONCE, I’D LIKE TO SEE SOMEONE QUESTION BUSH LIKE THAT.
My fav question: Can you tell us one thing you admire about Bush? Dear Leader must have some quality that even you admire…
rwcole @ 74
it may be all a moot point.. perhaps the ladies aren’t gonna be invited along for the ride after all.. I mean, presumably, there’s no need for a wide-stance-supporting closet up there?
TeddySanFran @ 72
Blub
True- no dicks in heaven.
Clusterfuck’s been readin bout heaven- tryin ta figure out how ta get ahead- wants ta know how many in heaven know his dad.
In heaven, goopers will get all the big houses with views.
and doesn’t this crowd look just like AMERICA….NOT!!!
why not a 2-million person march on Washington
what’s needed is an organizer
and some cooperation among lefty groups
My comment went bye bye,
Maybe it was the Bee Gees commercial on tv that disrupted it.
But,what I said was,
I’ve always been unsure.
That part of the world has always been wierd.
I don’t get any of it.
There.
jonathan@83
i’m down with that but i’m no organizer.. but a good follower lol
this was sent to me by one of my friends who was in israel at the time of the israel flyover=bombing…..i wrote him to find out what was being said, he was in israel when it happened…he is israeli but is a citizen here……just thought you all would like to know the perspective.
“I came back last night. Managed to go see a comedy show in Detroit last night (Artie Lange) and go to the Cleveland vs Bengals game today .
They were saying it may have been nuclear (well, people not the media). In any case it was definitely a SHOW of force saying “don’t fuck w/ us, we are not afraid!”
One more thing, they were saying it was odd N. Korea reacted, shows they may be involved.”
In a word, pathetic.
dakine01 @ 65
I remember he was on Ed Sullivan and they blacked out the bottom portion of the screen rather than show the shirt he wore (flag). Didn’t keep them from having some singing cowboy on with a flag/shirt a couple of weeks later.
Would it work to contact media and ask why no attention to established fact that Saudi Arabian money and people are responsible for killing Americans? Saudis are supporting Sunni insurgency. If the media are joining the war wagon by demonizing Iran, a good way to get their attention is to show they are doing bad, biased journalism, reporting selective facts, and misleading the country.
After they cave in to corporate and political masters and continue lying, then we can honestly charge them with dishonest journalism, after they have been Put On Notice.
The logical conclusion of the current warmonger set is that we declare war on countries in the region that are giving support to the Iraqi insurgency. So, we would start a war with all of Iraq’s neighbors.
That would delight some in the administration, but I am sure the voting public realizes that such a course is madness.
Jonathan @ 83
not one organizer. we already have that. what it takes is thousands of local organizers who will get the buses and get them filled with people.
there used to be joint answer / ufjp protests. i even organized buses for some of them (from MA to NYC and DC)… we never got 2 million people.
the thing to do, imo, is for more of us to organize in our communities. it would take a twenty thousand organizers bringing in a hundred people each to get to 2 million.
Read something quite remarkable and surprising earlier today, in a large-circulation weekly magazine.
The title is “The True Cost of Freedom.” Here are a couple of key excerpts.
(snip)
Care to guess the name of the magazine in which this appears this week?
Harpers? Nope.
The Atlantic? Nuh-uh.
The Nation, The New Republic, Mother Jones, Der Spiegel, Paris-Match? Non, nein, and nyet.
The Economist.
It’s somewhat tempting to go out and buy 535 copies and send one to every member of Congress. It would be more tempting if I thought any of them would read it and take it to heart.
selise,
i mispoke
not an organizer
a leader
whose words inspire
i’d drop everything and follow abraham lincoln
rwcole @ 74
’sides.. shrub’s a big believer in guest-worker programs, remember? Perhaps those of us libruls consigned to the other place will be able to get day passes from our immortal torments so that we can perform some of these personal services in those big mansions on the hill
so if you’re a member of a church that believes in the 144,000 thing, and that church has a membership of more than 144,000, wouldn’t one be a tad bit worried?
and big mitch-i have a bone to pick with you……
week of atonement, apologies posted by you, and yet you post things that were meant to be provacative….to provoke….after stating apologies for provoking………doesn’t mesh in my book……
Condi and Karen. That is a couple of scary looking chicks. I’d pay huge bucks not to be locked in a room with those two.
As I said last night:
The U.K.’s Sunday Times reports:
The attack was launched with American approval on September 6 after Washington was shown evidence the material was nuclear related, the well-placed sources say.
They confirmed that samples taken from Syria for testing had been identified as North Korean. This raised fears that Syria might have joined North Korea and Iran in seeking to acquire nuclear weapons.
Israeli special forces had been gathering intelligence for several months in Syria, according to Israeli sources. They located the nuclear material at a compound near Dayr az-Zwar in the north.
I am sure you will all join me in saying thank you to the State of Israel.
We got people who earned their way ta heaven by being beaten, whipped, and eaten by wild beasts- and shrub’s gonna try ta get in on the strength of killin a few hundred thousand Iraqis? Not enough shrubbery- not nearly enough.
uh, oh – time to go mow my
mushroom patch, uh – lawn…Iran’s just another word for nothing left to lose.
Iran?, Syria?, why not? We’re already in the neighborhood.
Jonathan @ 92
heh. if abraham lincoln were alive today all you would hear about would be his hair, his posture and his crazy wife.
it’s up to us…. which you proved yourself when you went to DC to protest just recently. you followed your conscience. no lincoln required.
Jonathan @ 83
I think it’s a great idea.
blub at 93 says-”’sides.. shrub’s a big believer in guest-worker programs, remember? Perhaps those of us libruls consigned to the other place will be able to get day passes so that we can perform some of these personal services in those big mansions on the hill”
bush is into guest worker programs, because the illnesses that they get won’t be claimable under us law………agricultural workers, lots of chemicals, exposure sets in, by then they are back in mexico….
The US has always had a manifest destiny to control the Middle East- or to have it control us- one or the other.
dmac @ 95
Don’t want to make this a thread about me, but I have been given to believe that a one liner about sports, is not verboten. It’s the blow-by-blow that so riles people. As to being pro-Israel and willing to provoke others, I make no apologies for that. This is politics, it’s in the hard core of what this blog is about, and I have a right to my opinion and to correct error as I see it.
rwcole @ 98
shrub believes his seat was inherited. Divine right of kings an’ all.
dmac @ 95
I was gonna say Say It Sister, but, I didn’t and then there he goes again, for then he RePosts Again.
Aw C’mon.
Could he just be pulling our leg?
(I’m tapping my foot.)
I don’t think SO.
BigMitch @ 97
Case in point, dmac….
I’ll pass, BigMitch, until I see some real evidence. At this point, it looks more like a botched attempt at getting the Iranians to shoot in our direction than anything else. Sorry, big fellah.
BigMitch @ 95
I am sure you will all join me in saying thank you to the State of Israel.
I’m sure we can all agree that thanks should wait until we see a public presentation and evaluation of what was seized. It should also wait until there is an explanation why an Israeli attack on Syria is in our country’s interest.
BigMitch @ 97
I am sure you will all join me in saying thank you to the State of Israel.
Mitch, much of that has already been debunked, South Korea, in particular said, in no uncertain terms, that the DPKR was not and could not have supplied Syria…
BigMitch @ 106
Of course you have the right to be yourself, but, you’ve posted this time and again, and I have yet to see anyone joining you. So?
demi @ 108
I hope you’re not commenting from a red state airport restroom.
big mitch——–
funny, my 95 which was posted right before your 97 which is what i was talking about, so, what do you say for it?
BigMitch @ 97
no.
selise at 102
today americans need a leader of lincoln’s quality to wake them out of complacency
Also seized were MoveOn.org contribution forms,
Hillary ‘08 bumper stickers, and Markos’ California driver’s license.
Ed*ard Teller @ 113
But, with a very narrow stance.
I’m a mom. Goes with my territory.
*g*
and mitch read my 86
now we’re beating a drum for israel to fight syria and iran????? as if there’s not enough warring going on…
BigMitch @ 97
I am sure you will all join me in saying thank you to the State of Israel.
On this one, if story is true, I would say we owe a much bigger thanks to Israel than to Bush-Cheney whose policies have led us too this pass.
Important to tell public what you see now IS the future with Bush-Cheney-Rove-Giuliani-Romney-Thmpson-McCain-PNAC view of the world.
No international governance, no multi- or bilateral negotiation. No multilateral non-proliferation policies or efforts. The US issues orders. Those who do not follow them are attacked. The world will see who is boss, who is the ruthless but responsible big daddy, hyperpower, world empire, and obey. That is their fantasy. The reality will be failure, hyperproliferation, and endless war and chaos, which will destroy the US.
If ya have enough war- then peace is inevitable.
CTuttle @ 111
I don’t know why anybody could still think any claim made by the shrubco propaganda chain might even conceivably be credible, verifiable or truthful
allan_in_upstate @ 117
perfect – except you forgot the love letters from Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to Barack Obama, from when they attended that madrasah together back in….
damn i hate dialup, when i comment, i can’t keep up…damn…….
CTuttle @ 111
Anyone have the links for the debunking? I would like to read them for myself.
rwcole @ 122
I guess. If rocks on a barren, blasted field could be said to be at peace.
dmac @ 114
Dmac, your 95 was posted but not read, when I posted 97. I thought you were talking about a sports comment I made.
It is funny that the Left (to the extent one can generalize about such a large mass movement) accuses Israel’s supporters of playing the anti-Semitism card whenever someone criticizes Israel, but if someone defends Israel he is ostracized and silenced.
Can we find things to agree on? Let’s start with this: It would be a bad thing for Syria to have atomic weapons.
Does anyone disagree?
BigMitch @ 97
I am sure you will all join me in saying thank you to the State of Israel.
And, as I replied last night, I can’t help noting that Israel introduced nuclear weapons in the middle east, making it inevitable that its neighbors will attempt to and eventually succeed in acquiring their own nuclear weapons, an eventuality that is in nobody’s best interest, especially not Israel’s.
rushing toward armeggeddan are we i see…we’re just itching to fight iran even tho we’re there covertly….the drumbeat is gathering steam as we speak..look for shit to jump off at the columbia speech and rally tomorrow…
Mitch,
Why. Do. You. Do. This?
Why?
Would it be a bad thing for Israel to have nukes?
I think it’s wrong for the Vice President to declare himself outside the Executive branch while at the same time the Executive branch declares itself above the law.
What’s good fer the nuke is good fer the nander.
juslin @ 130
in any normal reality, shrub and Iran-shrub should be best pals, collaborating in their messianic dreams of global conquest.
Gonna be nice ta see ol shrubber retired and sittin around makin a public nuisance of hisself.. I can hardly wait!!
Blub @ 123
One of the reasons I give the claim I quoted some credence (not buying it completely, but open to the possibility that it is true) is precisely because Bush-Cheney propaganda/bullshit generator has not been pushing this line.
Ed*ard Teller @ 99
I’m now going to follow my own advice, albeit a bit late…..
blub@135
ohh sooo true!!
The Democrats and Republicans sure love Israel.
big mitch, before reading the comments, i want to ask.
from where comes your stance on israel? relatives there? religious stance? what is the bone that you bite………
i’m asking because one of my friends is from there, born there, his family is there except for he and one of his brothers, and he wouldn’t be taking the provacative stance that you take, so, i am wondering from where it comes……….so, state it………..
because of you lately i have asked him a few things, and he says you are a poser…………someone who spouts off all pro-israeli things and doesn’t know squat about israel………….that’s what he said, don’[t take it out on me………
I like nukes. Someday I want to buy one ebay for decoration as a yard ornament.
the next president will face
american addiction to oil
the need to keep inflation and interest rates down
the need to keep americans sucking on the bottle
the need to get re-elected
BigMitch @ 128
Agreement or disagreement with this statement is entirely irrelevant. There’s no evidence there was anything going on in that vein over there. The story, as you quoted above, is so deeply a reich-wing dick-wagging TOLDJASO type of story, it defies belief that anyone remotely liberal could swallow that load of codswollop.
BigMitch @ 128
i think it’s a bad idea or syria to have atomic weapons. and iraq, and iran, and saudi arabia, and pakastian, and israel, and…. well, my list is very long… oh wow… it includes everyone!
rwcole @ 134
New keyboard! Aisle 65!
codswollop!
I find it very conceivable that many countries are considering acquiring nuclear weapons now that they have seen Cheney-Bush policies in action. If you are weak you are attacked. If can make serious trouble, Cheney-Bush will bluster impotently, and then fold like a broken card table. Compare North Korea and Iraq, and how Cheney-Bush handled the two. Iraq got destroyed. North Korea got lots of bluster and threats, but actions speak louder than words, and the actions were that Cheney-Bush stood by talking very big and doing nothing while North Korea went ahead and developed weapons.
Many regions in the world can see Cheney-Bush for what they are better than the US public. They can be played and rolled like patsies if you know what to do. That, besides their other faults, is another reason that their crowd endangers US national security.
The main reason I have doubts about the official story on Syria is that it would seem very hard to hide that kind of activity where is was supposedly taking place. Why not just sell Syrial a bomb? How could Syria hope to hide a nuclar weapons program in the desert, in an area that is being watched very carefully?
Jonathan @ 143
no.. sorry. Interests rates need to rise and stay highesh. No more shrubbish cheap money corporate welfare. We need a return to healthy, sustainable productivity growth even if we have to take some economic pain to get there. I’ll support any dem candidate who advocates getting us back to a rational economy. Unfortunately, none of them do.
rwcole @ 132
Israel has nukes. That is reality. Nothing is served by debating whether it is good or bad. Syria, does not yet have nukes. To the extent we can shape the future, it is worthwhile to think about what we want that future to look like. I, for one, don’t want it to include a nuclear armed Syrai.
Okay, I think Mitch is gonna repost that article until we BEG him to start talking baseball again.
Eureka Springs @ 142
I want to be the first in my neighborhood to have my own nuclear deterrent.
wesgpc @ 148
agree. it’s completely rational. doesn’t mean i have to like it… but if we want to undermine the motivation, we’re going to have to stop attacking other countries.
BigMitch @ 126
You are free to defend. A few facts would be useful. I would also add this: Would it be a good thing for Israel to have atomic weapons? Does anyone disagree?
As for Syria, except for one small research reactor, it has no nuclear program. When you consider the large industrial effort it takes to produce a nuclear weapon, the idea that Syria would develop a nuclear weapon in the next 10 to 20 years is ludicrous.
Lahoma suggests I turn on the pool lights and we go for a swim. And she indicates she feels like playing a game of chess after. She’ll probably beat me again.
Hugh @ 154
demi @ 151
Demi uncovers Big Mitch’s hidden agenda!
I would like llnks to good sources (which by definition means non-Cheney/Bush and non-Lik*d) supporting different sides of the Syria story.
i ask
who is your enemy
shrub
cheney
blue dogs
harry
i submit, it’s the times in which we live
what’s needed, are new, good, driving ideas
red, white, and barf
BigMitch @ 147
***
Is it just me, or does 99% of the knee-jerk pro-Israeli argument boil down to these two sentences?
We all know where the current administration stands on creating its own reality. Not a good sign, I don’t think.
The american flag, when printed on silk and wrapped around withered old gooper breasts is an unmistakable mark of patriotism.
selise @ 153
Exactly. No nukes, no respect. Acquiring nukes is like the rights of manhood in this “New American Century.”
BigMitch @ 148
So if Iran gets nukes, you would no doubt make for consistency’s sake the same assertion that “Nothing is served by debating whether it is good or bad.”
Oklahoma kiddo @ 155
I like Lahoma more and more each day..)
rwcole @ 161
Brain bleach, por favor.
wigwam @ 152
Me too. There is this neighbor of mine who is a real pain… I’d like to show him! Maybe we should join the NRA? They may be working that into their position as we speak. You know, nothing keeps the government goons in check like citizens armed with nukes.
I’m going to suggest that the various topics of this conversation stay in this thread and should not be brought forward to the next thread as EPU’s.
Thanks.
OT, and apologies if this has already come up, I didn’t read any comments yet, but I just wanted to throw this out there;
I just started watching tonight’s 60 minutes, with the interview with Ahmadinajad (sp) and had to stop after less than two minutes. The set up and line of questioning were so Fox-like that I thought I’d set the dvr wrong. Did anyone else have this reaction?
RBG @ 166
Great idea
Ed*ard Teller @ 11
Judaism, Christianity and Islam all promise the return of a key leader, but none of them say if they will appear alone, or with company. So, what if. . .
The world was stunned on New Year’s Day, 2008, at the second coming of Jesus, accompanied by Moses, and the Twelfth Imam, appearing hand in hand as equals in a religious center jointly used by a Christian congregation and a Jewish congregation. They issued a joint statement in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Arabic calling for a cessation of interfaith hostilities everywhere, claiming that they had been widely misunderstood. A round loaf of pita bread on the table in front of them was then shared by the three. The appearance took all leaders of organized religion by surprise, each one issuing a short ‘no comment,’ but promising a public statement tomorrow.”
Bob in HI
big mitch-”Don’t want to make this a thread about me, but I have been given to believe that a one liner about sports, is not verboten. It’s the blow-by-blow that so riles people. As to being pro-Israel and willing to provoke others, I make no apologies for that. This is politics, it’s in the hard core of what this blog is about, and I have a right to my opinion and to correct error as I see it.:”
bullhockey, you try to provoke, how does that fit it with yom kippur?
you are not helping the israeli cause my dear, because i got so pissed about the fight between you and kathleen, i forward your comments to an israeli and he is not impressed……….
funny how someone who has a direct cause to israel doesn’t appreciate your stance……….so, where does it come from? homeland? were you raised there? relatives? got some there? afficiando? got feelings? been there? i haven’t, but i trust his judgement, i’ve known him for years, he’s been raised there and goes back as often as i go three hours away to see my family……also well versed on palestinians…………so, where are you drawing your lines?
BigMitch @ 128
bigmitch – i don’t think you’ve every accused anyone here of anti-semitism, and i don’t think anyone has said you did. and no one here wants to ostracize or silence you!
i do want to disagree with you… strongly disagree. but that is all.
FYI, Siun is upstairs
If the neocons hold onto their influence, Iran and Syria will be attacked. Nothing can stop this… it may be a false flag operation or a steady stream of nuclear paranoia a la Iraq.
They’re still smarting from the hostage humiliation and have to settle the score.
wesgpc @ 167
I’ll give up my nukes when they pry them from my cold dead fingers. And, if nukes are outlawed, only outlaws will have nukes. You can’t trust the American to deliver your mail on time, why would you trust them with your nation’s survival — let’s privatize all nukes.
dmac @ 141
Well, if my “facts” are wrong, it doesn’t matter where I get them from. If they are right, so be it. My attitude about Israel should be evaluated on its merits not on my background.
Lest it be said that I am ashamed of who I am, I will tell you straight up. I am Jewish, and this informs my attitude toward everything, including social justice, politics, love of peace, and, of course, Israel. My religious views have waxed and waned over the course of a half century plus of being in this world. Whatever they are, for the most part, I don’t think that religious beliefs should inform political opinion. Specifically, I don’t think that the promise God made to Abraham is relevant to the discussion of how to resolve the problem in the mid-East. I am not on the extreme right of the Israeli political spectrum by any means. I have tried to keep myself informed, with varying degrees of success, and I am amazed when so many people that I admire, like a few FDL denizens, are woefully ill informed about Israel. Nor am I on the exteme left of Israeli politics, which to me seems like self-hatred. The one principle that guides my thoughts about Israel is that before I tell them to get tough with someone else, that is, before I tell them not to make concessions, I remind myself that I do not have to live with the consequences, i.e. continued warfare. And so I don’t.
The thing I re-posted today, was not supposed to be provocative. I saw that ET was posting on the issue, and I wanted to link to an article on the subject. Yes, I added a line of snark at the end, but we are grown-ups here, and I expect that you can take it.
In the nick of time Siun is upstairs with a New Thread.
OT: I got together a kos diary and I want to post it over there. I can’t find the publish button. Can anyone help me?
new thread
Micheal “faster please war crazy” Ledeen gets down on Iaea’s El Baradei
http://www.salon.com/opinion/g…..tt_ledeen/
General Abizaid on Iran
http://ap.google.com/article/A…..Kyj1HxPoJw
Ledeen ripping on Genearl Abizaid.
http://corner.nationalreview.c…..E3YzBmNjI=
ccmask @ 179
IIRC the publish button doesn’t appear until you have a title, some tags, and have previewed your work. Then it appears.
bobschacht @ 171
…but by the next day, none of the news channels carried the story. Blackwater, which had handled security and a messy cleanup for the earlier day’s event and ensuing riot, received a $100,000,000 bonus, and their owner, a medal of freedom from President Hillary Clinton.
BigMitch @ 150
No but it is good to ask why Israel, Pakistan and India have yet to sign the Non-Proliferation treaty?
BigMitch @ 150
If I lived in Syria or Iran and watched what the US did in Iraq, or what Israel has done in Lebanon. I would want nukes just like the U.S. and Israel.
wigwam @ 182
Check-check & check. I still can’t though….I’ll keep trying. Thanks wigwam.
eureka at i dunno-”
I like nukes. Someday I want to buy one ebay for decoration as a yard ornament.”
we could spend hours talking…….
yea, i’m an artist, i’m completely sure i could make a sculpture outta that……….yep……..
selise @ 102
selise, why is it that no one seems to hear this? And, if they do, it just seems not to penetrate? Waiting for a ‘leader,’ when considering the people who gather here, well, I just don’t get it. I have never witnessed a group of people better suited to dare to speak up, stand up and become the ‘leaders we have been waiting for.’ Is it modesty? What do you think? Certainly, the idea is scary, but things are going to become MUCH more scary if everybody just waits for the magnificent ‘leader on the white horse who will lead us to the promised land.’
Actually you can get an unarmed nuke fer yer yard- even the fuckin airforce can’t tell the difference.
Kathleen @ 181
Per the reviews here , even the warmonger Kenneth Pollack agrees with Abazaid. Per Publisher’s Weekly:
Havin nukes doesn’t do ya any good unless people know that you’ll use em. Sometimes ya just have ta wipe out a little pissant country so people’ll take ya seriously.
BigMitch @ 177
Mitch, your problem is that you refuse to acknowledge what the entire world knows to be true-that Israel is occupying Palestinian land in defiance of numerous UN resolutions and world opinion. They have made the Palestinian people prisoners in their own land with even separate roads. It is unjust, and deserves to be called what it is, apartheid.
wesgpc @ 158
Here ya go…
“Quite a few analysts believe the story about a secret Syrian nuclear facility makes little sense…Syria has been on an Israel/US schmoozing drive of recent…the Dayr az-Zaw site is right on the border with pro-West Turkey, an absurd place for an ultra-secret nuclear facility…South Korea dismisses the idea that North Korea is helping Syria with a clandestine nuclear plan, saying there’s not a shred of evidence. According to the Jerusalem Post, “A week after the attack, the US announced its intention to give Pyongyang $25 million worth of heavy fuel oil in return for Pynogyang’s good faith in their nuclear activities.” The Post also reports that members of the Israeli military have recommended renewing discussion about giving the Golan Heights back to Syria. These things would never occur if North Korea were supplying nuclear materials or parts to Syria.”
David W. Bartoo @ 188 –
i don’t know…. i do know that i have learned not to trust people who say they want to lead… so, maybe i’m not the best person to ask.
ccmask @ 186
Okay, then look around for any error messages. I think that Kos has it set up so that the PUBLISH button doesn’t appear until you’ve corrected all errors. IIRC, error messages are in small red font somewhere near the top. (I recall getting really frustrated with that stuff a few times.)
SeamusD @ 192
The entire world does not agree on this. The UN resolutions that you speak of require Israel to repair to “secure borders.” Until someone steps forward and tells Israel what borders it is willing to guarentee security behind, Israel is not in violation. Of course, I may be the first person to ever explain to you the legal basis for the Israel position, and so you may have trouble accepting it. Palestinians want a separate homeland, as I understand it, and Israel wants them to have one. So what is wrong with having separate roads? Sorry, you can’t have it both ways. Israel was criticized for occupying S. Lebanon, and then criticized for withdrawing from it “unilaterally.” It is the same with Gaza. If the Israelis withdraw there will be no government able to prevent an attack on Israel in the territories. Yet, I gather you would have Israel withdraw. International law is not a suicide pact.
BigMitch @ 177
I hope you don’t include me on the list of “ill informed.” If anything, Mitch, I’ve offered you links to authoritative articles and books which counter fully some of your arguments. Most were written by prominent Israelis or Jews from other countries. You’ve yet to respond to a single invitation from me.
You’ve made similar statements in the past. You’ve somehow failed to realize that there’s a patently illogical aspect to your statement, and probably a racist subtext. Lebanon, for instance has suffered from the impact of the creation of Israel since 1947. Indeed, it would be one of the wealthiest nations in the Mediterannean were it not for continued destabilization caused and exacerbated by its LARGER neighbor, Israel. Syria hasn’t helped, but Israel is the main culprit.
From time to time, you talk of innocent citizens of Israel’s neighbors as if they are others or some kind of untermenschen and seem to heartily embrace collective punishment, particularly in references to your comments on the Gaza Strip.
That’s false. You’ve been putting the “thank Israel” tag on your repeated posting of the UK-Times article since its first appearance, IIRC…
STATEMENT
by H.E. Reza Aghazadeh
Vice-President of
the Islamic Republic of Iran and
President of the Atomic Energy Organization Of Iran
Iran called for a nuclear free zone in 1974
“As the Middle East is among the most strategic areas of the globe, the world community has
been witness to Iran’s call in 1974, for the first time, to establish a nuclear weapon free zone
in the Middle East. Israel, however, the only non-adherent party has so far not been
cooperative in this regard. It has consistently shrugged off this essential international call for
safety and peace by turning its back on world public opinion and by refusing to even allow the
Agency to inspect its nuclear installations. Such an arrogant attitude is certainly not conducive
and will most probably lead to an apprehensive paradigm with unexpected consequences in
the region. It, therefore, goes without saying that adherence to NPT by all the regional
member states is an essential preliminary step towards the establishment of Nuclear
Weapon Free Zone in the Middle East”
http://64.233.167.104/custom?q…..6/iran.pdf Israels nuclear program&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us&client=google-coop-np
Many nations in that region of the world have been begging Israel to sign onto the same Non-proliferation agreements that they signed. Israel continues sign on.
———————————————-
http://64.233.167.104/custom?q…..-17_en.pdf Israels nuclear capabilities threat to peace&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=google-coop-np
Israeli Nuclear Capabilities and Threat
Text of letter received on 22 May 2006 from the
Ambassador of the Sultanate of Oman
On behalf of the Arab States that are members of the International Atomic Energy Agency (the
Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, the United Arab Emirates, the Republic of Tunisia, the Republic of
Algeria, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, the Republic of Sudan, the State of Qatar, the Syrian Arab
Republic, the Republic of Iraq, the Sultanate of Oman (observer), the State of Kuwait, the Republic of
Lebanon, the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, the Kingdom of Morocco, the Arab Republic of Egypt, the
Republic of Yemen and Palestine (observer)), I have the honour to forward to you the request of those
countries kindly to include an item entitled “Israeli nuclear capabilities and threat” in the agenda of the
fiftieth session (2006) of the Agency’s General Conference.”
BigMitch @ 196 -
have you ever been to the west bank or gaza? stayed with palestinian families? seen how they have to live? seen how they are treated?
have you ever visted or worked with israeli human rights organizations? like physicians for human rights or rabbis for human rights or the israeli committee against house demolitions?
big mitch at 177-Well, if my “facts” are wrong, it doesn’t matter where I get them from. If they are right, so be it. My attitude about Israel should be evaluated on its merits not on my background.
Lest it be said that I am ashamed of who I am, I will tell you straight up. I am Jewish, and this informs my attitude toward everything, including social justice, politics, love of peace, and, of course, Israel. My religious views have waxed and waned over the course of a half century plus of being in this world. Whatever they are, for the most part, I don’t think that religious beliefs should inform political opinion. Specifically, I don’t think that the promise God made to Abraham is relevant to the discussion of how to resolve the problem in the mid-East. I am not on the extreme right of the Israeli political spectrum by any means. I have tried to keep myself informed, with varying degrees of success, and I am amazed when so many people that I admire, like a few FDL denizens, are woefully ill informed about Israel. Nor am I on the exteme left of Israeli politics, which to me seems like self-hatred. The one principle that guides my thoughts about Israel is that before I tell them to get tough with someone else, that is, before I tell them not to make concessions, I remind myself that I do not have to live with the consequences, i.e. continued warfare. And so I don’t.
The thing I re-posted today, was not supposed to be provocative. I saw that ET was posting on the issue, and I wanted to link to an article on the subject. Yes, I added a line of snark at the end, but we are grown-ups here, and I expect that you can take it.”
you didn’t anwer my freakin’ question, did you? 172 and 141…..
you posted an atonement, then violated it by provoking a response, i see nothing wrong in calling you out about that…….
and i see nothing wrong in finally calling you out about my friend who is an israeli and differs with you…….
i asked where your adamance came from, you didn’t answer, where does it come from? you keep stating it, seems right that you should say what it is based on, same as any other opinion on firedoglake, what are you basing it on?
BigMitch @ 196
When you are trying to take your desperately ill child to the hospital and the road you need is blocked by an IDF checkpoint that won’t allow you to pass because you don’t have a pass, and your child dies, what excuse do you offer, Mitch. This happens all to often. That’s why it is wrong.
“Still doesn’t explain why 72 Senators with nothing better to do than pick their noses and whistle didn’t vote to condemn Abizaid’s successor, Fallon, for calling Petraeus an ass-kissing little chickenshit.”
I don’t understand the point of this comment. Again we’re heading towards that Nader 2000 “they’re all the same” meme. It serves, most of all, the Republicans’ interests.
selise @ 194
selise, I agree with you that those who loudly proclaim that They are leaders is very good reason to never, ever, allow them near power.
But I disagree that you are not the one to ask precisely because you Are a natural leader, you educate, you encourage and you understand. As do LHP, Jonathan, Hugh, Christy, Jane, kirk murphy, Scarecrow, Eli, C Tuttle, Oklahoma Kiddo and most everyone else whose words resonate with the needs of our time, the desire for peace and understanding,
tolerance and hope that human destiny is not to be decided by the least-evolved and most-vile amongst us. Those who become leaders through necessity are not narcisistic little souls. No one here seeks cheap personal aggrandizement, merely a better world. selise,
I place you high on that list. You work for the betterment of all, every day and all of us appreciate that you do so.
Again I remind people that ascribing Nazi-linked terms like “untermenschen” to Israel or Israeli actions is bound to cause pain to Jews on its face. It’s hate speech. You can say anything you need to say without doing this.
The Iaea just had their 51st conference
http://www.iaea.org/About/Poli…..html#day-5
Looking for some articles that I read quite some years ago about how President Kennedy was the last US President to push Israel to open up to inspections.
larry birnbaum @ 204
I’ll let the term other stand then. Sorry if the use offended you, Larry. My point is that Mitch falls into the common practice of identifying a whole country – Syria, for instance – with its leaders in descriptions seemingly meant to engender disdain or worse toward all the inhabitants of the polity.
larry birnbaum @ 202
The Democrats can’t act spinelessly and expect us not to notice or berate them for it. We’re being honest which is more than you can say about them. And yes, we do distinguish between their cowardice and the Republicans’ criminality. But if the Democrats throw away the 2008 election it will be their own fault.
big mitch at 277-Well, if my “facts” are wrong, it doesn’t matter where I get them from. If they are right, so be it. My attitude about Israel should be evaluated on its merits not on my background.
Lest it be said that I am ashamed of who I am, I will tell you straight up. I am Jewish, and this informs my attitude toward everything, including social justice, politics, love of peace, and, of course, Israel. My religious views have waxed and waned over the course of a half century plus of being in this world. Whatever they are, for the most part, I don’t think that religious beliefs should inform political opinion. Specifically, I don’t think that the promise God made to Abraham is relevant to the discussion of how to resolve the problem in the mid-East. I am not on the extreme right of the Israeli political spectrum by any means. I have tried to keep myself informed, with varying degrees of success, and I am amazed when so many people that I admire, like a few FDL denizens, are woefully ill informed about Israel. Nor am I on the exteme left of Israeli politics, which to me seems like self-hatred. The one principle that guides my thoughts about Israel is that before I tell them to get tough with someone else, that is, before I tell them not to make concessions, I remind myself that I do not have to live with the consequences, i.e. continued warfare. And so I don’t.
The thing I re-posted today, was not supposed to be provocative. I saw that ET was posting on the issue, and I wanted to link to an article on the subject. Yes, I added a line of snark at the end, but we are grown-ups here, and I expect that you can take it.”
i can take it, but is it the truth? is it what people are working for? according to my israeli friend, you are not working for what he wants……
and you posting a snarky comment about an israeli post during yom kippur, which you made a point of recognizing, and made a post about recognizing things you shouldn’[t have done, makes me doubt the sincerity of anything you post.
Friends of Sabeel-New England presents . . .
“The Apartheid Paradigm in Palestine-Israel:
Issues of Justice and Equality”
October 26 – 27, 2007
Old South Church, 645 Boylston St., Boston
Friday—2:30 PM—10:00 PM
Saturday—8:00 AM—4:30 PM
Keynote Address: Archbishop Desmond Tutu
http://www.fosna.org/BostonConferenceOct2007.htm
selise @ 90
Kind of a wild idea here –
How’s about everybody walks — like a pilgrimage where participants make the trek all the way and arrive en masse, converging from all corners of the nation. Home-bodys could host the anti-imperial walkers along the way if they want to participate and join the effort to reclaim their government. The movement to restore democratic openness would be embraced by rural, suburban, and city dwellers by providing hospitality and messaging support where ever folks are coming from. With a network of walkers and safe houses in place, the movement could become continuous and robust. Kind of like a national block party. Better yet, a national walk party (and save the gas)! Might even grab a news cycle and a blog post or two. An opportunity to take Direct Action, if you will.
Long live bloggers, mods, commenters, and trolls. We love our planet, don’t we!
Seems like Mitch has abandoned the field again. He just left a post on the next thread saying he’s off to watch MTP or something. If you are still here, Mitch, we would appreciate a response.
dmac,
My friend Mitch has left to go watch MTP on Tivo. I doubt he’ll revisit the late comments here, but hope he somehow does.
neokneme @ 210
It is long overdue for civil disobedience in large numbers
big mitch-The entire world does not agree on this. The UN resolutions that you speak of require Israel to repair to “secure borders.” Until someone steps forward and tells Israel what borders it is willing to guarentee security behind, Israel is not in violation. Of course, I may be the first person to ever explain to you the legal basis for the Israel position, and so you may have trouble accepting it. Palestinians want a separate homeland, as I understand it, and Israel wants them to have one. So what is wrong with having separate roads? Sorry, you can’t have it both ways. Israel was criticized for occupying S. Lebanon, and then criticized for withdrawing from it “unilaterally.” It is the same with Gaza. If the Israelis withdraw there will be no government able to prevent an attack on Israel in the territories. Yet, I gather you would have Israel withdraw. International law is not a suicide pact.
you are oh so full of shit…………israelis do NOT agree with what this man is saying…………….he is an american with idealogical leanings without the backing of real israelis……no FUCKING way…..and i don’t cuss……..
Great website about the I/P issue
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
Rabbi Lerner
http://www.tikkun.org/
dmac @ 208
Your statement reflects the perpective of an evolved person. If you will forgive me, it
reflects a very spiritual, human, sensibility.
Ed*ard Teller @ 197
I’ve read everything you have referred me to. However, I don’t always but the rest of my life on pause to do so. As a generalization, I find it unpursuasive. Example: There was an oil spill in Lebanon. The point? War is hell. Who was responsible for that war? You have your view, and I have mine. The report of your friend from UAA did not help to resolve that question.
Bullshit. Israel is not the main culprit in the Lebanese civil war. C’mon, friend, you can’t be serious.
There are consequences when a state of war exists. Those who cause the war are responsible. You can’t refuse to make peace, and then claim that any consequences of the war are “collective punishment.” Apparently, under the laws of war, it is okay to completely destroy the infrastructure of the enemy. Israel doesn’t do this, and I am not saying they should. But the charge of collective punishment is reserved for Israel and made by people who have had too much anti-Israel kool-aid.
Carefull, buddy. Don’t attack my integrity, unless you are sure you are on solid ground.
Sorry if I wasn’t clear. I re-posted the comment, complete with snarky tag-line, because I saw that this was an area of interest to ET.
EDWARD teller-My friend Mitch has left to go watch MTP on Tivo. I doubt he’ll revisit the late comments here, but hope he somehow does.
what a bunch of fucking bullshit………my israeli friend was just writing me about what mitch says, and called bullshit on it……figures…….oh well……….i know the truth of it, and that’s what matters…………week of atonement, and eggin’ people on, that’s what bothered me……fuckin’ hypocrite……….
David W. Bartoo @ 203 –
you give me waaay too much credit. we’re all just pitching in where we can. but thanks for the kind words… *g*
Below are the four key U.N. Resolutions relating to Palestine and Israel cited in When the Rain Returns, Toward Justice and Reconciliation in Palestine and Israel, by an International Quaker Working Party on Israel and Palestine. Please search the U.N. for more extensive resources.
General Assembly U.N. Resolutions
http://www.tamejavi.com/israel…..utions.htm
SeamusD @ 211
Well, I was going to leave, but I checked back to see if anyone had answered me. I am not a cut and runner, though I think immediate withdrawal from Iraq is a good idea.
neokneme @ 210
dmac @ 218
dmac, a lot of well meaning people disagree. Your israeli friend and I seem to disagree, assuming you are representing his views correctly. So what? Does he tell you that all Israelis agree with him. If so, don’t trust him.
Mitch,
Tell you what. Rabbi Yossi Greenburg finances trips to Israel and the Occupied Territories of the West Bank of the Jordan River (and the Gaza Strip, back when the settlers were there) through his organization. Why don’t you see if he’ll organize a trip for you and me to go over there for two or three weeks in the spring? The catch – you and I get to pick the itinerary.
selise @ 219
selise, I suspect that all those who do the real work of improving the world are ‘just pitching in.’ I’ve no doubt that Paine, Jefferson, Madison and Franklin felt the same way. Certainly Ghandi and MLK did.
wigwam @ 190
Pollack, who authored a pre-war book he described as “the case for invading Iraq,” appeared on the Oprah Winfrey show in Oct. 2002 uncritically touting the false intelligence about Iraq:
“POLLACK: What we know for a fact from a number of defectors who’ve come out of Iraq over the years is that Saddam Hussein is absolutely determined to acquire nuclear weapons and is building them as fast as he can.”
Kenneth Pollack believes he is US GO 1 in the A*p*c espionage investigation.
i know i am epu’d’
i am pissed……..i give up, for how long, maybe not for long…..this israeli/palelestinian shit just makes me scream….i know people directly in it, and they don’t agree with what is posted here…how do i know that? cuz i asked them………i’ve finally realized that people like big mitch and kathleen just want to be right…..but don’t know shit about what they’re talkin’ about…and according to my friends, they don’t know shit……that it is wasted breath to comment otherwise…….oh kow tow to the holy ‘right’…..they are so omnipotent…………..they’re half right and half wrong, which is the teller of the two?
time will tell……..
wigwam @ 190
Kenneth Pollack pushed hard for the invasion of Iraq. He is supposedly US Go 1 in the A*P*C espionage investigation
Ed*ard Teller @ 224
Hopefully, Mitch will take you up on that.
It would benefit all of us to hear what you both would learn.
kathleen @ 220
The most relevenat of these is #242 which was re-affirmed unanimously by #338. The former:
(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;
(ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force; The phrase which I highlighted is intended to require Israel to withdraw only when there are recognized boundaries that they can withdraw to, and within which they can be secure and independent. Since the Palestinians have refused to even recognize Israel’s right to exist, it has been impossible for Israel to comply. Israel has repeatedly called for enforcement of the creation of secure borders through negotiation. The Palestinians have obtained numerous concessions, but have given nothing. Israel subsequently withdrew from all captured Egyptian lands and made a peace treaty. Israel unilaterally withdrew from Lebanon, but was criticized for doing so. Israel has made a peace treaty with Jordan, and there are no occupied lands that Jordan claims sovereignty over. There is a small area that is in dispute between Lebanon, Syria and Israel which occupies it. Israel doesn’t know with whom to negotiate regarding this small, mostly uninhabited area. The WEst Bank and Gaza are the main sticking points. The Palestinians were offered a homeland in these areas at Camp David (the U.S. was represented by Clinton, the Palestinians by Arafat, and the Israelis by Sharon.) True to his reputation for never missing an opportunity to miss an opportunity, Arafat declined.
Ed*ard Teller @ 224
Why didn’t you ask me this this morning? I had lunch with him today.
Ed*ard Teller @ 224
sounds like a great trip. If you go in the spring I would love you to meet a dear friend Art Gish who will be going over to live with the Palestinians for the (I believe the 15th time), Art is amazing
http://mideastchristians.virtu…..apples.htm
big mitch at 223 says-”dmac, a lot of well meaning people disagree. Your israeli friend and I seem to disagree, assuming you are representing his views correctly. So what? Does he tell you that all Israelis agree with him. If so, don’t trust him.”
you STILL haven’t stated where you draw your opinions frrom…….i think that matters a little bit………..
dmac @ 227 –
if you’ve learned things from your israeli friend that you think are important, why not share them here? maybe help us learn new stuff too?
David W. Bartoo @ 216
I hope you realize that dmac’s post was a quote of mine at #177 to which he added the last five lines.
BigMitch @ 231
Well, call Yossi sometime soon, and ask. He might really enjoy this. We could live blog for fdl – especially if we can take in a football match or two in the Occupied Territories or Tel Aviv, eh? Mitch and ET live blogging sports from Israel might transform fdl…
We could do serious stuff too.
Ed and Mitch. My friends Art (years spent with Palestinians and in Israel) and Peggy Gish ( 4 years in Iraq, both before and after invasion) have spent time with Mordechai Vanunu. How great would it be to meet him?
http://www.vanunu.freeserve.co.uk/
kathleen @ 236
Dr. Vanunu would be on my TO DO list.
Bookmarking this thread.
dmac @ 233
I think if you re-read 177 your question will be answered. If you mean what newspapers do I read, etc., I try to link them when I state the facts that I rely on to form my opinions. I guess I don’t understand what your question is. I am not a religious fanatic, but I do acknowledge an emotional bond to Israel. I try to divorce my political thinking from my emotions. What more can I say?
kathleen @ 236
As far as I am concerned Mordechai Vanunu is a traitor to his country. I know you regard him highly, and it should not surprise you that we disagree about this too.
Ed*ard Teller @ 237
oh wow! please do it guys, that would be so great!
BigMitch @ 240
All the more reason to meet the guy. If you’re right, I’m sure it will be evident when we sit down and have some tea and bread with him.
Ed*ard Teller @ 237
Goshdammit! Can’t we agree on anything??? If we go, we will have to take in a game with the Modin Miracles! (baseball!)
Footnote: The Modin Miracles are coached by Art Shamsky who played on the “Miracle Mets.” Their colors are blue and orange. They had 75 draft choices when the league formed, and they used the last to “draft” Sandy Koufax! Shamsky explained, thus: “He’s rested.” Modin, the city where they play, is the site of the Chanukah story. The letters on the Dreidel stand for “A great miracle happened there.”
big mitch at 223 says-”dmac, a lot of well meaning people disagree. Your israeli friend and I seem to disagree, assuming you are representing his views correctly. Your israeli friend and I seem to disagree, assuming you are representing his views correctly.So what? Does he tell you that all Israelis agree with him. If so, don’t trust him.”
how arrogant of you……………let’s break it down, shall we?
=========
, a lot of well meaning people disagree.
=============
who?????????????
========
Your israeli friend and I seem to disagree, assuming you are representing his views correctly.
============
how dare you insinuate anyting else, shows what an asshole you are.
================
So what?
=========
ah, gimme a break…..
=======
Does he tell you that all Israelis agree with him. If so, don’t trust him
=======
yeah, right……..all israelis agree with YOU????????????
that’s what i want to know, where are you coming from, got relatives there? got some kind of investment there? or just talkin’ outta your ass…….so, tell us mitch what is it?
Big Mitch at #243 – I do baseball too. I coached both Little League and soccer for years. Miss it, sometimes.
Big Mitch @ 235
Mitch, I’ve never doubted that the same
thing I said to dmac applies equally to you. I hope you realize that. I respect your viewpoint, as well as the energy with which you express it. But, I also hope you might take journey with Ed*ard; I would truly welcome the insights that you both would bring back.
BigMitch @ 240
So are the NYT reporters James Risen and Eric Lichtblau traitors for exposing the NSA warrantless wiretapping program just as Vanunu was convicted for outing Israel’s nuclear weapons program? These are people who tell inconvenient truths. The real traitors are the Jonathan Pollards of this world.
BigMitch @ 217
When population A chooses to build its national home where population B lives, they have only four options:
1) assimilate population B — not attempted in I/P.
2) anihilate population B, but genocide is a crime against humanity.
3) expel population B, but ethnic cleansing is a crime against humanity.
4) subjugate poplulation B, but apartheid is a crime against humanity.
Or some combination of the above.
Isreal’s hands are not clean: http://www.truthdig.com/report….._to_peace/
BigMitch @ 223
Yes, let’s break it down.
A lot of well meaning people disagree ….
Meaning: The israeli political spectrum is wide and diverse.
Your israeli friend and I seem to disagree …
Meaning: you have said the he thinks I am full of shit.
Assuming you have represented his views correctly …
Meaning: I haven’t said anything that controversial to incur the kind of wrath you attribute to him.
So what?
Meaning: Reasonable people can differ on things. It’s okay.
Does he tell you all Israli’s disagree with him?
Meaning: All Israelis wouldn’t agree that the sun comes up in the East.
If so don’t trust him.
Meaning: This one you can figure out.
To me the most surprising aspect of the fact that you have a friend who disagrees with me is that you have a friend. It is surprising, because you have called me an asshole just for defending my views.
I have never said that all israelis agree with me. On the contrary, I acknowledged the opposite. I’ve explained where I am coming from. You want a flame war. Sorry, can’t accomodate you on that one.
and mitch i am a she, not a he……..
and what do you base your attachment for israel on? you way didn’t answer that……..
kinda matters, i think…….
and you also didn’t answer that during your atonement week you instigtated a provocation about israel, all the while you were atoning and all……..
I don’t believe we ever ‘convince’ people to change their minds. Or even that their minds should be changed. It is our personal efforts that open our own minds but it is also our friends who may allow us to feel enhanced and safe in the process.
kathleen @ 226
Per the wikipedia:
Apparently, he is research director at the Saban Center for Mideast Studies, where Martin Indyk is director. That center is funded by billionaire Haim Saban, who is quoted as saying: “I’m a one-issue guy, and Israel is my issue.” IIRC, he is also Hillary’s biggest contributor.
Hugh @ 247
It does make a difference that the NSA WArrantless wiretapping program was illegal, doesn’t it? I don’t buy into the assertion that it is necessary for national security, but some would say the same about Israel’s nuke program.
Jonathon Pollard is a traitor. I hope you don’t believe in collective punishment against Jews because of him.
I finally put up my diary wrt the Everglades. Any help with recommendations will not be turned away. Thanks.
wigwam @ 248
There are other possibilities. For example, you could buy the land of population B for fair compensation. This was done to a large degree. One could imagine that they people of population B could choose to leave for a variety of reasons, such as the urgings and promises of Countries C, D,and E. One need’t imagine this. You could look at the history of the British Mandate.
Of course, your premise is flawed. “When population A chooses to build its national home where population B lives” The Jewish homeland has been Israel since biblical times, and they have lived in exile since 70 C.E. Notwithstanding the above, there has been a major Jewish presence is the Holy land since that time.
As you know, after WWII there was a major re-alignment of national borders and the creation of new states. Yes, I believe the history of the holocaust and the history of Israel are intertwined. You are free to disagree.
Israel’s hands are not completely clean. A nation with two millenia of history rarely has a completely clean record. Even the state of Israel, with only 59 years has blood on its hands. But nobody is blameless in this mess. Israel does have a very good record, which cannot be said about every other state in the area.
BigMitch @ 252
A little paranoid there, BigMitch. As for the warrantless wiretapping, while I certainly think the program was illegal, there has never been an official finding to that effect.
For his part, Vanunu did no more than state what was already known although never officially admitted by the Israeli government. For that he was kidnapped and put in prison for years. Yet earlier this year, in a slip of the tongue, Prime Minister Olmert admitted as much. His office later issued a retraction. He was not put in prison last I heard.
So, Mitch, if we can con Yossi into taking us to Israel/Palestine for three weeks, where will we go? Can we somehow get some fdl feedback – in a civil thread – on how to rationally do this?
you still didn’t answer the bond to israel question-so, how come the bond to israel, not such a hard question for someone who has such philosophies tied up in it…….got people from there? gonna live there?….thought not…….kinda like the neocons supporting a war when they have nothing tied up in it?
i’m goin to bed, i so hope people see this thread so they can see your israeli politikin’ as the empty thing it is……….
there are israeli supportists, who truly care about the state of israel, but i don’t think you’re one of them……….i think you just like a fight, no matter what it is………and i still want an answer about why you troll out the israeli argument, where does it come from? are you from there? have relatives there? gonna go there?
people from there don’;t appreciate you arguments. in fact, it hurts what they’re tryin’ to do…..the peaceful ones anyway.
Hugh, don’t confuse snark with paranoia.
You state: “For his part, Vanunu did no more than state what was already known…” I am not prepared to argue this point, but I am not sure you are correct, either. I thought he gave away details of the program.
wigwam @ 248
True, they’re not. This wasn’t Mitch’s claim however. And unless Wigwam really is a Native American, neither are his. As to how badly the Israelis behaved compared with, say, how badly we did, or how badly the Indians and Pakistanis did (and do), or how badly the Sudanese are behaving in Darfur right now, I think the record is clear.
Ed*ard Teller @ 256
How ythe fuck shoud I know. I can’t even watch TIVO-MTP. Now my son is serving dinner, and I am going. For. Real.
larry birnbaum @ 260
True. But such qualifications on conduct by the Israeli government and their military in numerous events since the formation of that state, and in the period between the end of the mandate and the formation of the state need to be compared to similar actions by similarly educated and Eurocentric populations, IMHO.
BigMitch @ 261
I’ll take my cue – ETette goes back to college in Washington state in the morning. Peace.
[RBG edit]…..he used to come in with ot/tell em big mitch sent ya…blogwhore and pissed people off….and now enters in with israeli bullshit which even israelis don’t agree with……..geeeeeeeeeeez…………cmon……..
so why the israeli connection? that’s what gives me the disingenuous feeling here………..got relatives there? family there? answer it, how hard is that?
dmac @ 264
perhaps now is a good time for a reminder that we do not personally attack other commenters – the message yes, but not the person.
BigMitch @ 255
That mythology has been refuted by Israeli scholars, e.g.:
* Simha Flapan, The Birth of Israel: Myths and Realities (New York, Pantheon Books, 1987)
* Avi Shalaim “The New History of 1948 and the Palestinian Nakba” Miftah.org, March 18, 2004.
Americans have long ago given up their virgin-birth myths about what happened to the American Indians. Why are supporters of Israel so tied to this nonsense the the Palestinians simply got up and walked away from their homes. Even if that were true, to refuse war refugees of a certain ethnicity the right to return to their homes is yet another form of ethnic cleansing.
ok, take out the [RBG Edit] and the rest is a sound comment on the message,,,,,,,,,
[RBG Note; it’s been done. And let’s leave it at that for the evening please.]
Here’s a song of hope that Mitch can convince his Rabbi to finance this trip. The conclusion of my memoriam to Rachel Corrie, performed in 2005 in London, after the same Rabbi helped keeping us from doing it here in Anchorage in 2004.
I just now posted it on my garage band site, because by doing so I’m going to get about 200 or more hate messages a day on my campus e-mail than I already do, but, hey – I like Mitch!
Here are the lyrics:
7. Chorale with soprano solo; Rachel’s Words (edited by Philip Munger)
Feel sick to my stomach a lot
from being doted on all the time,
very sweetly,
by people who are facing doom.
You can always hear the tanks and bulldozers
passing by.
I have had bad nightmares about tanks and bulldozers
outside our house
and you and me inside.
Tanks and bulldozers destroyed 25 greenhouses
the livelihoods for 300 people.
Then the bulldozers come and take out
people’s vegetable farms and gardens.
This happens every day.
I think that I should at least mention that
I am also discovering a degree of strength
and of basic ability for humans to remain human
in the direst circumstances.
I think the word is dignity.
I wish you could meet these people.
Maybe, hopefully, someday
you will.
BigMitch @ 258
Vanunu had photographs of the warheads and of Israel’s nuclear center at Dimona. It wasn’t the details that drove the Israelis crazy. It was the fact that Vanunu had evidence that the Israelis had such weapons, something they had denied but which the CIA had known since the 60s and almost everyone else by the 70s.
What sets Israel apart as a nuclear power is that it is the only one which continues to deny that it possesses them. The more interesting question is why do they continue to do so. My view is that such an admission would blow out of the water the carefully nutured image of Israel being just one step away from being driven into the sea. The reality is that Israel’s neighbors can not threaten its destruction but it can certainly threaten theirs.
{{{{{rbg!!!}}}}}
Ed*ard Teller @ 270
It’s mutual, my friend. I will personally moderate the live blogging of any sporting event you and Mitch attend together.
larry birnbaum @ 260
Like most educated Americans, I acknowledge the atrocities upon which this nation was founded. For reasons I don’t understand a large percentage of American supporters of Israel are in a state of denial and still blame the victims.
Israel neither denies nor confirms that it has nukes, Hugh.
RBG @ 271
RBG, From a distance, I hope. *s*
I prefer to stay on topic, because here news seems only to improve. Corporate media starting to pitch the Newt Wave, the next big thing. I guess I-fugedaboudit Fred is not doing the trick. Broder enthuses about Newt, which is a very good sign.
——
09.23.07 — 8:44PM // link
The Gingrich Groundswell
From David Broder:
In the years since I first met him in 1974, I have learned that it’s wise to take Newt Gingrich seriously. He has many character flaws, and his language is often exaggerated and imprudent. But if there is any politician of the current generation who has earned the label “visionary,” it is probably the Georgia Republican and former speaker of the House.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/053963.php
RBG @ 271
it’s now monday morning, and i don’t know if any of you will see this… but i just want to say thanks to RBG, ET and Mitch…. for hanging in there and being willing to continue the conversation. much admiration and respect from this corner of the commentor pond.
Have any of the Israeli discussants here yet read John Mersheimer and Stephen Walt’s newly published book, “The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy?” Farrar, Staus and Giroux. Just came out about two weeks ago.
It is a book which should be discussed, but only after people have seriously read it. I have perhaps 150 pages to go, and need to go back and connect footnotes to text.
The authors have, one might say, stirred up a hornet’s nest, which was their intent afterall. They raise the fundamental question, using standard American Foreign Policy 101 methods, are the national interests of the United States and Israel the same, similar or identical — and they answer that in the negative. During the Cold War, they propose, US had stronger national interests parallel with those of Israel — but subsequently there has been a great shift, and the need now is to debate the question clearly within the National Interest framework. That’s precisely what the book does. If people could commit to staying on topic, and within the parameters of the book — it would be a healthy FDL effort, for one of their recommendations is fostering more open discourse, and in fact it is the only one in which they seem to have much faith.
Anyone else reading this book?
thanks rpg, i had already ‘turned myself in’ to someone, a moderator, to let someone know that i had crossed a line with a bad word and an unfair comment meant to sting about his blog..which actually looks like it takes a lot of work, so that was unfair………
and that i should be admonished for it…….
which i rightly was……..
the rest of what i said, stands.
wigwam @ 272
The only thing I really blame the Palestinians for is holding onto their victimhood and revanchist fantasies — to the point where some of them end up blowing themselves and other people up randomly in cafes — rather than doing the things that would actually lead them to self-determination.