(We are pleased to welcome Dan Gilgoff, author of The Jesus Machine: How James Dobson, Focus on the Family, and Evangelical America are Winning the Culture War. Dan Gilgoff is a contributing editor at US News and World Report, where he writes often about the intersection of religion and politics, and is also the political editor at BeliefNet.com. — JH)
Around our house, two kinds of media stories often provoke howls of outrage. Mrs. Peterr, the scientist in our house, goes nuts over the poor coverage of science stories by reporters who couldn’t tell a hypothesis from a hypodermic, and I similarly melt down when I see religiously-clueless reporters stumbling through a piece involving religion. In both cases, all too often the stories are filled with sweeping generalizations, mis-statements of facts, and just plain nonsense.
When it comes to covering religion and politics, the press could use more reporters like Dan Gilgoff. A lot more.
In The Jesus Machine, Gilgoff takes us on a tour of national politics in the last 30 years, looking at the construction, operation, and evolution of the political apparatus of the religious right. At the center of Gilgoff’s story is James Dobson and his Focus on the Family empire of radio broadcasting, his staff of counselors that take calls from listeners, his in-house publishing, his Colorado Springs headquarters, and much more. Without a doubt, Dobson’s blessing is the most widely sought-after endorsement in GOP circles. He has an audience of radio listeners in the millions, and in contrast to people like Falwell and Reed, Dobson is viewed not as a political animal by the evangelical community that adores him, but a wise counselor who is above the mess of politics.
For some of Gilgoff’s readers, a lot of this story will be new. Sure, you may know the names — Jerry Falwell, Gary Bauer, Ralph Reed, Tony Perkins, the Christian Coalition, the Moral Majority, the Family Research Council, just to name a few — but the way in which they interact (both cooperatively and competitively) will be eye-opening. For others who already follow the actions of the Religious Right, Gilgoff gives new insights on the work of Dobson and his colleagues, connecting the dots and opening up the behind-the-scenes stories in ways that have not been well examined until now.
What captured me in reading The Jesus Machine were the struggles within the evangelical community over the use of three different models for political action. As Gilgoff summarizes two of these midway through the book (speaking of pre-2000 activism by the religious right),
Falwell’s Moral Majority had succeeded in attracting the attention of the White House and the news media, but failed to build a true army of in-the-pews evangelical activists or get legislative results. Ralph Reed, meanwhile, had built such an army, only to subvert much of the Christian Right’s core agenda to practical politics and to his mission of expanding the movement.
The third approach — championed by Dobson and the people and organizations that follow him — emphasizes (1) bottom-up, grassroots style activism, (2) led by leaders who would not sell out their beliefs for political access and power, which (3) worked to elect like-minded evangelicals and (4) exerted pressure from both the inside and outside of the corridors of power. When push comes to show for Dobson, purity trumps practicality and compromise. Sure, carrots should be offered to GOP leaders to push the TheoCon agenda, but sticks need to be wielded against them (not just against the godless Democrats) to hold their feet to the fire.
The creation of “Values Action Teams” in Congress, led by such evangelicals as Tom DeLay, Tom Coburn, and Denny Hastert, plays a pivotal role in this story. After years of shouting from the outside, rightwing evangelical leaders finally began to learn the ins and outs of the political process, which made their efforts much more effective. When should leaders of the religious right speak out, and when should they hold their tongues? Who should be pressured, and who should be stroked? How should the message get delivered, and who should do it? It’s not that the religious right learned to compromise, but rather how to pick their battles better, how to coordinate their efforts, and even (at times) how to be a bit more patient.
Gilgoff takes his readers through supreme court nominations, proposed constitutional amendments, the Terri Schaivo mess, the fights over same-sex marriage, battles between the big business end of the GOP and the religious right, and all kinds of other political fights. It’s a story not just about DC and Colorado Springs, but also Ken Blackwell’s Ohio and other locations around the country. Gilgoff also spends a chapter giving a contrasting (and depressing) look at the Democratic party’s outreach to religious voters. One little statistic illustrates the difference quite well: “The Bush [2004] campaign had signed up three hundred thousand conservative religious volunteers by Election Day. [The Kerry team] worked with a national list of seven hundred.”
That’s a ratio of 428:1 — and any political organizer will tell you that’s not good, if you’re the 1.
By the end of the book, I found myself wondering about the relationship of Dobson and his crowd to mainstream religious figures, both inside and outside the GOP. In 2005, for instance, ordained Episcopal priest and former GOP senator Jack Danforth wrote an NYT op-ed which critiqued both his party and the Religious Right:
I do not fault religious people for political action. Since Moses confronted the pharaoh, faithful people have heard God’s call to political involvement. Nor has political action been unique to conservative Christians. Religious liberals have been politically active in support of gay rights and against nuclear weapons and the death penalty. In America, everyone has the right to try to influence political issues, regardless of his religious motivations.
The problem is not with people or churches that are politically active. It is with a party that has gone so far in adopting a sectarian agenda that it has become the political extension of a religious movement.
In 2006, Danforth expanded on this and wrote Faith and Politics: How the ‘Moral Values’ Debate Divides America and How to Move Forward Together. In a Washington Post story on the book’s debut, conservative Southern Baptist Convention leader Richard Land (a player in the Jesus Machine story) described Danforth as “what was wrong with the Republican Party and why they were a minority party.”
I’m not faulting The Jesus Machine for not looking at this aspect of the story of the evangelical right — every author has to draw the line somewhere about what goes into a given book. And who knows: perhaps there is half-written sequel to The Jesus Machine waiting to be finished . . .
All in all, The Jesus Machine is a fascinating book, no matter what your religious or political persuasion is. If you haven’t read it yet, you can check out some excerpts at thejesusmachine.com. There’s lots to dig into, and I’m glad to have author Dan Gilgoff join us here today at Firedoglake to do just that.
Welcome, Dan!
Related posts:
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Mark Klein, Author of Wiring Up the Big Brother Machine
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Frank Schaeffer: Crazy For God
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Matt Taibbi, The Great American Bubble Machine
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Max Blumenthal, Republican Gomorrah: Inside the Movement That Shattered the Party
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Eric Boehlert, Bloggers on the Bus: How the Internet Changed Politics and the Press





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Welcome to Firedoglake, Dan!
(As a sign of respect to the guest, we’d appreciate it if comments on other topics stayed on the prior thread. Thanks!)
Thanks very much for having me. Excited to be here.
Welcome, Dan, and thanks for being here today. And thank you, Peterr, for a great post.
It’s shocking to think anyone could listen to the oily Dobson and think him above the political.
Dobson preys on the elderly for support.
Jane Hamsher @ 4
I think that’s one of the problems Dobson’s facing at the moment: as he becomes more unabashedly political ( announcing last week that he won’t back Fred Thompson for president in 2008, for instance) it’s getting harder and harder for him to make the case that he’s above the political fray. It will be interesting to see whether that has the effect of curbing some of his political influence in this presidential cycle.
Count me in the Sam Harris camp where it concerns the acute threat of organized religiosity in general.
Jane Hamsher @ 4
Jane, I think it has to do with the origins of his radio broadcast. To a lot of his listeners, especially in his earlier years, Dobson was a kind of “Dear Abby” counselor-type with a strongly conservative bent to him. When you compare that with Falwell, Reed, and others, it’s easier to think of him as non-political.
Of course, it would be wrong to think that . . .
Hi Peterr and Dan Gilgoff
Thank you.
Dan, is there hope?
Peterr @ 8
Reed I understand, but I didn’t realize people peceived a distinction between Falwell and Dobson.
Elliott @ 5
This actually hints at another of Dobson’s/Focus’s current problems: his radio audience has aged right along with him (Dobson is now in his 70s) and Dobson’s struggling to pick up younger listeners and followers.
Dan Gilgoff @ 12
Maybe he can get together with Bill O’Reilly and have a good cry.
Sorry that was almost OT. As you were.
Dan Gilgoff @ 12
Yeah, can’t we assume that that young preacher (son of an older one), Joel Something, with the megachurch in LA is more likely to inherit the young, fundamentalist families?
And what happens when he and others like him give marching orders a year from now?
I have to wonder what proportion of overtly “religious” people in the U.S. are covertly agnostic or atheistic. They nominally go along with all this dopey stuff via lip service simply as a result of life-long social/peer/family pressure, but really wouldn’t wanna live in a “Christian-Taliban” society.
Welcome, Dan! Very nice introduction, Peterr.
Peterr @ 8
Good point Peterr. As political as Dobson is at the moment, it’s important to point out that for a long time–though the 1980s and much of the ’90s, Dobson resisted please from many powerful conservative activists to get really involved with the Christian Right. And that’s why he’s so much more powerful than Christian Right leaders like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson were/are: he’s not seen by many evangelicals as the standard bearer of the Christian Right. Rather, he’s seen as a trusted family advisor who has helped listeners through some of the most intimate struggles of their lives, like raising children and confronting marital strife.
I’ve been following Dobson and Co for years, as they used to send out blanket mailings to the clergy in areas I served.
I was stunned, though, when my wife came in with the mail one day in 2001, right after our son was born. “What’s Focus on the Family?” she asked, holding up an envelope. Inside was a letter congratulating us on our newborn child, and urging us to take advantage of their expertise and advice.
New parents get inundated with solicitations from diaper companies, baby food suppliers, and all kinds of others in the Maternity-Industrial Complex. I didn’t realize that Focus on the Family was out buying and using the same mailing lists.
Oh, and we passed on their offer.
Is there any estimate to the amount of tax dollars being funneled to the “Evangelicals’? There is little or no auditing of the “faith based” programs and the money is fungible.
I have been doing a lot of traveling around the US over the past few years and the amount new church construction is amazing to me and very little of it is being done by “mainstream” denominations. It’s Bible Church or Life Family church etc. The other observation is that this new construction if ofter in areas where it is unlikely that the members would have the financial means to support the church. If the money isn’t diverted Federal dollars, I haven’t a clue where it is coming from.
Dan, I’d like you to address how the Religious Right has hijacked the churchly discourse of the nation, so that when one thinks of religious figures in America the default setting seems to be “Southern Baptist” or some suchness.
I can remember when the very Southern conservative churches that now have driven the new Religious Right were ostracized for their racism. It’s bitterly ironic to see them talking about morality and values — and to see the mainstream media swallowing it without question. (Of course, as Dan Rather’s lawsuit is emphasizing for those who still don’t get it, the corporate media and the GOP largely work in cahoots and have for years.)
What are your thoughts about churches and pastors from the progressives like The Episcopal Church in Pasadena, CA being in trouble for questioning the war?
Double standard?
This question always pops up with these politico/religio types: Do these people, generally speaking, believe what they say and write and preach? I suppose there is no way to grip an answer this.
Dan, welcome. Thanks to you and peterr for your work and you time here today.
I grew up in the same city where Dobson’s FOF started up (before they moved off to build their air wing).
Their illiberalism and perversion of Christ’s message repelled me (and still does).
What makes the true believers – the Dobson insiders – tick?
Do they really believe they are working Christ’s message and values in the world?
Or is it just all about power for them?
Dan, how does the Texas preacher, Rick Scarborough (Sp?) fit into the scheme of things?
BobbyG @ 15
It depends. Some are as cynical as you suggest, while others actually think of themselves as Calvin’s “Elect”, born without sin and able to enter Heaven no matter what, and thus able to do what they want to the rest of us.
Steve-AR @ 19
I don’t know — and have not seen — much on the faith-based funds and where they’ve gone. I do know that one big difference between parishes of mainline denominations and non-denominational churches is that the former send money off to support the work of the denomination, while the latter have no such denomination to support.
Jane Hamsher @ 11
Oh yeah, a huge distinction. Most Americans, even evangelicals, saw Falwell as a divisive figure. A poll in the 1990s found that a minority of American evangelicals–the very constituency he purported to speak for–had a favorable opinion of Falwell. The same poll found that Dobson had a 76-percent favorability rating among evangelical Americans. Most non-evangelicals, meanwhile, had never heard of him. So Dobson and Falwell, who of course died last May, were starkly different characters. Dobson, my book argues, has been much more politically successful as well.
Peterr @ 18
that’s similar to how I became aware of Focus on the Family
almost a creepy, sneaky marketing plan. insidious.
I really like the term “fellowship”. It seems to me this has come to mean ‘group-think’ as much as anything else. And I notice that politics is often a part of so called fellowship.
Phoenix Woman @ 25
I’d just like to see some data as to estimated proportions. “Some” is fairly obvious, but unhelpfully imprecise.
Peterr @ 26
That caused problems in the Southern Baptist Convention. The “mainstream” Baptist churches were still sending money for Mission work and social programs and the “Mega’s were keeping every dollar they got.
I was wondering if your book gave a side trip to the unique situation of Utah and the LDS Church in relationship to evangelical churches.
utahgirl
Dan, in doing your research for this book, I can imagine that some of what you discovered confirmed what you suspected about Dobson and the Religious Right. But there had to be surprises as well . . . what was the biggest surprise to you?
Steve-AR @ 19
Steve, I am dedicated to finding the exact number of billions. I comment here regularly on the buying of Bush’s base.
So far, the faith based initiative has not been overseen by any accounting agency of the government that I have been able to find.
The abuses of the billions requires investigative journalism. I am daunted but I am clear that this is a story of enormous proportions.
I think George Bush and most of the fundamentalists would have us believe the Middle East conflicts are religious wars. Are they?
demi @ 21
I think that the IRS has basically been asleep at the switch when it comes to enforcing its ban on partisan politicking among non-profits like churches, as I wrote about in a http://www.usatoday.com/printe…..62.art.htm. But it was interesting to see that in the case of that Episcopal Church in Pasadena, many coneservative evangelical organizations like the Family Research Council came to its defense, even though it is 180 degrees on the other side politically. And that’s because Family Research Council and other conservative evangelical orgs know that if the IRS starts enforcing its ban–which would mean revoking the tax exempt status of churches that engage in partisan politicking–a great many conservative evangelical churches would become vulnerable to the same penalties.
Good afternoon and welcome Dan Gilgoff . Did I hear you interviewed on radio a week or two ago?
demi @ 21
I was at a memorial last weekend. George Regas is Pastor Emeritus of All Saints in Pasadena,demi. He was one of the officiants. We chatted at the reception briefly – he’s a busy man, busier now that he’s retired than ever – and he was intrigued that the online community is interested in his case. I wonder if there is any interest in online fundraising for his legal fund?
It is appalling that they went after him and not any evangelicals. Pastor Regas has been vocal about politics and especially war being a moral issue, and therefore fair game for the pulpit, ever since Vietnam. But so have the evangelicals been busy electing their brethren to city councils, school boards, and now national offices, not to mention pimping their candidates in megachurches in oh, so many ways. I remember reading about phone trees on election day reminding everyone who to vote for and other such transgressions.
Is the IRS infiltrated by what… Dominionsists? Evangelicals on a mission? Or are there similar cases I don’t know about on the “right” side of the church?
Dan,
To what extent, if any, has Roe v. Wade fueled the rise of people like Dobson?
Elliott @ 28
This is first-hand evidence of Focus on the Family’s stepped-up efforts to pick up new “constituents.” As Dobson gets older and nears the date when he will exit the scene, either through retirement or death, Focus knows it could face the same fate as groups like Christian Coalition, which basically fell apart as soon as Executive Director Ralph Reed left in 1997. So Focus is desperately trying to find new recruits and the way it’s doing that is not through its political activism, but by stressing what it calls its “nurturing side”–all of the resources and help it provides to parents. It’s easy to forget that, for all the attention Focus’s political activism receives, the organization is primarily in the business of helping parents raise kids. In fact, this apolitical work is the reason why Dobson and Focus are so politically potent, because they’re not seen by supporters as political shills.
Phoenix Woman @ 20
As the daughter of a Congregational Minister in the Northeast, I am clear that the religion of the right has nothing to do with the life my family has lived for fifty plus years.
My wise father is active today in keeping inquiring, intelligent, science-based, creative people involved in a community of the highest values.
Dan Gilgoff @ 40
When I first moved to Texas I listened to a morning radio (music) program that had a “focus on the family” minute of parenting advice every hour. Took me a long time to realize who Dobson is.
Dan Gilgoff @ 36
As Dan describes in the book, Focus on the Family has set up different subsidiaries — some on one side of the tax exempt line and others on the other side. They are indeed fearful of losing their own tax exempt status.
Just this past week, Dobson was cleared of endangering FOTF’s tax exempt status in a case that goes back to his endorsements during the 2004 election cycle.
In the last couple of years, it seems as if most of his speeches include a disclaimer “Now, I’m not speaking as head of FOTF. This is just my personal opinion, but I think you should vote like this . . .”
Mommybrain @ 38
Mommybrain: Very interesting to hear about your chat with Pastor Regas. Do you know if the IRS has come down one way or another in this case? Focus on the Family several weeks back was cleared by the IRS against a couple complaints alleging it had engaged in partisan politicking and Focus sent the news to tens of thousands of supporters as proof that it was playing by the rules. Interested to hear if anyone knows of new developments with the Pasadena case.
I have long been curious about how some of these non denominational churches work.. Looks as if it’s “Frank’s Church” and Frank can pretty much dip into the collection plate as he sees fit. Does anyone know how this works?
Dan,
Thanks your book and for spending time with us here.
One intriguing facet of the religious right are the youth movements, like Battlecry for a Generation (http://battlecry.com/) with their overtly fascist imagery and their overt commingling of political and religious imagery. Could you comment on where these youth groups fit into the politics of the religious right and also comment on how concerned we should be about them?
I think I read somewhere that three out of four adults in the U.S. described themselves as Christian.
I understand that the Evangelical Church’s membership has peaked and is now flat or headed downward- that would match up with what has been said about aging populations. Does anyone have any numbers on this?
I also hear that some supporters of the “movement” are moving away from the emphasis on abortion and gays and are more interested in sponsoring programs for the poor. Can anyone confirm this? If so- how big is the change?
What would “victory” in our “culture war” look like, assuming these people are “winning” it?
Follow the money…
Peterr @ 43
That’s right, Peterr. Dobson is always very careful to qualify any overtly partisan polital remarks as reflective only of his personal views, not those of Focus on the Family. And for the 2004 election cyle, Focus started a new sister organization, Focus on the Family Action, to which contributions are not tax-deductible, giving Focus Action the freedom to be more political. So when Dobson uses his hugely popular radio show–carried on something like 2,000 U.S. stations–to express politial views, those broadcasts are simply paid for by Focus on the Family Action. It’s an easy way around the IRS rules.
Dan Gilgoff @ 44
Today’s LA Times reports that case has been closed with no charges filed, but the IRS still apparently thinks the sermon was over the line. The church is not letting matters sit like that. Regas wants an apology from the IRS.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 47
But that includes many of us who are Christian but who are not members of the Christian right. I did a quick Facebook survey of my regional and alma mater network once.. among the younger group that patronizes Facebook, there seem to be nearly as many self-described “Christian Liberals” and “Christian Moderates” as there “Christian Conservatives”… also, one has to consider that not all of the Christian Conservatives are part of the Christian right political movement.
Peterr @ 52
Wow. They’re the MoveOn of churches.
rwcole @ 48
There are *some* evangelicals who are trying to push beyond abortion and gays into what they label “creation care” — aka environmentalism. As Dan notes, old school folks like Dobson see this as lying down with the devil (liberals) and letting a new holocaust (abortion) continue. So far, the old school folks are winning that battle.
Dan, I got the impression that the IRS had backed off somewhat. But let me ask a couple of people in the next few days and get back to you. This was a newsman’s service and many well-informed souls attended. Apparently, I wasn’t one of them. I’ll get your email from the mods.
Here’s a link from All Saint’s webpage:
All Saints Demands Correction and Apology from IRS.
demi @ 57
Occasionally, somebody in the Episcopal church actually stands up and says what most of us actually do seem to be believe in.. it’s rare, but it does happen every now and then… sort of like the Democratic Party :P
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D…..ted_States
Link to census findings on breakdown of US by religion. Interesting reading.
Peterr @ 52
Thanks for the update. While I’m not saying Regas went over the line (though the sermon in question did feature a theoretical dialogue between Jesus, George Bush, and John Kerry on the eve of the 2004 election–at least according to my recollection–which would certainly seem to be pushing the envelope on IRS rules) the fact that Regas’s church will not be reprimanded is a good time to note that in the last ten years, only a tiny handful of churches have seen thier tax-exempt statuses revoked because of over-the-line politicking. For all the attention cases like Pasadena have garnered, the IRS really hasn’t ever enforced this ban.
rwcole @ 59
No Religion/Atheist/Agnostic 8.4% 15.0%
105.7% growth in 11 years. That’s progress!
79.8 % of americans described themselves as christian at the last census in 01. That was a decrease from the 88.3% who said that they were christians in the previous census.
BobbyG @ 49
Victory has been incremental under Dobson’s leadership of the Christian Right, to be sure, but it looks like this: electing a president that moves the Supreme Court harder to the right that at any time in the last 25 years, passing 2 dozen state constitutional amendments to ban gay marriage–and, in many cases, any legal recognition whatsoever for gay couples–and passing the first federal curbs on abortion rights since Roe v. Wade, including the Partial Birth Abortion Ban act of 2003, which was just upheld by the Supreme Court. All of this progress illustrates one of key themes of my book: that the Christian Right under Dobson has become more realistic about what it can accomplish and has therefore been making more political and policy gains. Even the incremental gains I mentioned here are historic.
hey peterr and dan gilgoff
it’s time someone wrote about the mingling of the far right and christianity…
If you add the charismatics, evangelicals, baptists, and non- denominationlists together- you get about 27% of the population- these are the groups that the christian right is coming from. They are actually a pretty small percentage- and not all of em support the “movement politics”.
They are getting power out of proportion to their numbers- pretty smart.
BobbyG @ 61
Depends on how you define progress. Secularization is not my goal.
juslin @ 64
Dan, have you gotten reactions from your journalistic colleagues (either at US News or elsewhere) about your book?
BobbyG @ 61
That’s true, but the same chart shows growth in evangelical identification to be 326.4% over the same time period. This actually raises a very pertinent point for the 2008 election, which is that as Democrats try to win over culturally conservative evangelical voters, one of the fastest growing “religious” blocs on the left is that comprising agnostics and atheists. So how do the Democrats “get religion” without alienating all the liberal atheist voters, many of whom are scared to death of religion’s influence on public policy?
For most of the snake handlers- there is no victory without a reversal of Roe V Wade. That’s the primary battleground.
rwcole @ 65
What’s the old slogan? Something like “History is made by those who show up.”
If only a small group of folks go vote, it doesn’t take huge numbers to win and election.
TexBetsy @ 66
Relegation of religiosity to harmless fiddling would be beneficial progress for me.
my problem with those who claim to follow christ actually do not follow him but rather the words of their minister’s opinions regarding christ – if they would only examine scriptures for themselves we’d all be the better for it….imo jesus had many progressive sermons and ideas…
I was first “introduced” to Focus on the Family and the Dobsons in the mid ’80’s when my daughter’s school’s Parent-Teacher organization sponsored a series of family help films from FOTF. Much of what he and his wife said was good solid advice. It didn’t take long, though, to understand who he was and where he was coming from when he went off the deep end condemning abortion. I did not return to watch the rest of the series after that.
Many years later my daughter went to Colorado College – a VERY liberal liberal arts school in Colorado Springs where the Dobsons set up their empire. At that time many of the sutdents had bumper stickers on their cars that read: “Focus on Your Own Damn Family.” I knew then that Gnomette was at the right school.
Dan- that “evangelical” increase was from .1 to .5 percent- not much of an increase. I think you have to combine some categories to see what’s really going on- like baptists, charismatics, and evangelicals. If you do- then you see a decrease in membership.
Boston1775 @ 34
IMO, the “religious” right is the long term threat to this country. Their greed, however, can be their undoing. There is no way that the buildings and infrastructure is being funded or supported by the “collection plate”. Shut of the Federal dollars and they are SOL.
So how do the Democrats “get religion” without alienating all the liberal atheist voters, many of whom are scared to death of religion’s influence on public policy?
Hopefully they will attract Open Minded Atheists as well as Open Minded Christians.
So, maybe it’s a question of everyone opening their minds as well as their hearts.
Peterr @ 67
I have gotten reaction from colleagues, and many secular, left-leaning journalists have expresses horror at how well-organized and powerful Dobson’s machine has become. On the other hand, Dobson himself called after the book came out and said he thought I’d given him a fair shake. I wanted to write a straight down the middle book about an extraordinarly successful social-political movement and leave readers to decide if that success has been good or bad.
Dan Gilgoff @ 68
I loved the story in the book, Dan, about Jim Wallis talking to Harry Reid after the 2004 election: “If you’re looking for a few Bible version and instructions for how to clap are the right time during church, I’m not the person you need.”
It’s not that simple, as Jack Danforth (in the GOP) and the late senator Paul Simon (in the Democratic party) demonstrate.
hello dan, do you mention the influence of joyce meyer in your book?
The nation is about 25% fundie- they remain a political force only until the other 75% turn against em- this started to happen with the Shiavo story- and continued with stem cell research and Roe V Wade reversal attempts.
If the fundies go- they’ll take the goopers down with em- because while they are a minority of the general population- they represtent a MAJORITY of gooper voters. Goopers are scared shitless of em.
rwcole @ 69
But don’t the Dobsons of the U.S. thrive on Roe v. Wade?
There is no place where it would be so sure that if Jesus would reappear today that he would be crucified without delay than the US.
rwcole @ 80
Turn off the money spigot.
Jonathon- yep- it’s a paradox. The day Roe is overturned- the power of the christian right goes straight down the toilet- but if they ever quit working for it- they go down the toilet to…so they are required to work for their own demise…interesting isn’t it?
Steve-AR @ 75
Hmmm… I don’t believe Focus on the Family recieves any federal dollars. If so, it is a tiny portion of their budget. Even so, Focus’s $150 million dollar budget has flat-lined recently, leading to some recent layoffs. Will be very interestng to see if this is an aberration or whether donations continue to decline in the next few years.
rwcole @ 62
I am baffled by the lack of response to my regular comments. Does it help people to know that I am of no religious persuasion?
I am married to a Jew who is not religious.
The fact that I have lived in a religious household headed by a highly educated man and woman who toiled amid the doubts and fears of us all seems like it should ring a bell with people. But it doesn’t.
The fact that I am interested in spiritual values seems like it should ring a bell with people. But it hasn’t.
I am content to look elsewhere. It’s just that I thought I had found a community that might find what I have to offer as valuable.
I am clear that religion has been bought by the Bush administration. Many other rulers in history have done the same. It will take strength and intelligence to reclaim a separate space, apart from politics, for human beings to relate to the many creatures of our world with integrity and love.
Religion has never been politics, as I’ve experienced it. It has been an expression of the yearning to reach beyond the physical.
Maybe I’ve come to a political website and thought it was a different community. I’m fine with that.
mulligatawny @ 82
shrub would declare the dude a terrorist and throw ‘im into gitmo
is there a comprehensive list of who funded focus on the family to get it going?
Boston,
Sorry that you haven’t gotten any response. What did you say?
i work at a co filled with evangelicals; some are hardline rightwingers but many see themselves as decent people just looking for answers
if the d’s were to actually act like d’s — work for justice, peace, and support charity and aid to those less fortunate — i think we could take back the people now in the embrace of the jesus machine whose hearts are not evil, as well as working people everywhere
the others … well, there’s no hope for them
Boston 1775,
I’m surprised you feel that way. I always enjoy your comments, especially in the morning.
And tonight when you described yourself as the daughter of a minister, I thought to myself, “this doesn’t surprise me” given the gentleness of thought you reveal.
I’m sorry I didn’t speak out earlier.
your views and opinions are valued, stay here.
I’m a Presbyterian–and sometimes go to Methodist or Unitarian services. These people are NOT snakehandlers and support Clusterfuck in numbers below the national average. It’s a minority of the “christian” community who are in the Dobson camp.
i dont see how these repugs posing as christian leaders haven’t had their tax-free status looked into – their churches have become repug strongholds and i think boiler room centers…curious as to how this can be
rwcole @ 74
You’re certainly right about having to combine some of the denominations to get a semi-accurate read on total evangelical numbers. If you look at the numbers used by the Pew Research Center in the 2000 book “The Diminishing Divide,” you’ll see that as most other Christian denominations in the U.S.–Catholics and mainline Protestant traditions, for instance–have seen marked decreases in their membership numbers, evangelicals have seen slight growth in their numbers.
TexBetsy @ 66
Thanks TexBetsy. I’m sure there’s more than a few religious FDLers here, and I also think it’s important for the Democrats to embrace the full range of faiths represented in our country.. we’re supposed to be the party of diversity.. the other side is the party of enforced intolerance. We can be Christians, Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, agnostics, atheists, and possibly even Christianists (who I insist are NOT actually Christians if one defines Christianity as adherance to any one of the accepted and validated Christian catechistic traditions), whatever. They can only be one thing and their party requires them to profess their hatred of everything and everyone else.
quoting from above: i work with people who exactly look to dobson “as a trusted family advisor who has helped listeners through some of the most intimate struggles of their lives, like raising children and confronting marital strife.”
so, let’s work on how ****WE**** and democrats can help people and families:
– decent wages for workers
– health care
– old age care
– a humane society where all people are treated with respect
Just imagine if the Catholic Church were to lose its tax exempt status based on its anti-abortion, anti-gay etc. rhetoric. That tax bill would singlehandedly eliminate the federal deficit.
rwcole @ 89
rw, I keep following the money. The billions. The unaccounted for billions.
The teen boot camps.
The churches headed by “Frank”.
The “prison outreach programs”.
The abstinence programs.
The “drug abuse” programs.
The programs that cure homosexuality.
I am haunted by a little girl that I worked with for two years in my middle school who knew, clearly knew, that she wanted to be a boy.
She was sent to Texas.
For James Dobson to refer to Marianas Tom DeLay as ‘…one of America’s leading advocates of family values‘ – To paraphrase Mr. Bumble, “If purity supposes that, purity is an ass”.
Hopefully, Dobson will enjoy his fleeting temporal power…His works will be revealed, and judgement passed in due course.
Boston, you ask some good questions about the faith-based funding, and it has been discussed here at FDL from time to time in the past. (And will be again, I have no doubt.) There are folks who identify with a wide variety of religious traditions here at FDL, as well as those who espouse no religious faith at all. This is indeed a political website, which includes in its discussion of politics the role that religion plays in our current society.
Please keep sticking around.
dmac @ 88
The main funding source for Focus on the Family has always been Dobson’s radio listeners. It’s important to understand that millions of Dobson fans don’t merely listen to him on the radio. They call Focus on the Family to order one of its 4,000-plus resources–pamphlets, DVDs, books, etc.–on everything from how to discipline an out-of-control toddler to how to confront alcoholism. They’ll also call Focus to talk to a Christian therapist about a serious crisis in their personal lives. So Focus has a bond with its constituents that is sometimes hard for outsiders to grasp. The entire funding structure for Focus is based on that deep, and, in many cases, lifelong bond that turns constituents into donors.
Boston 1775,
FWIW, i love and am fascinated by nature, our planet and all its critters, babies, the universe, the unending search for reality
darkblack @ 99
Corruption is a great family value! We should all cultivate it at home all the time. Little Johnny should be taught to bribe his teachers and to pay others to do his homework for him… ’tis the lord’s way :)
oddmommy @ 97
Though it’s important to note that nonprofit orgs, including the Roman Catholic Church, are perfectly free to do advocacy on issues like abortion and gay marriage. What nonprofits are barred from doing, under IRS rules governing tax-exempt organizations, is advocating for or against a political party or candidate.
Boston- I’m very interested in the money as well. There at least two money issues:
1) How much money is going to the churches from the federal govt. and what is it buying (besides gooper votes)?
2) How much money is going to the guys who just go out and start a church and pass the plate. My guess is- if that story is ever told honestly- there would be a giant uproar in the nation of God.
Boston,
Some times people talk to me here. Sometimes they don’t.
Also, there are times when it’s running so rapidly that it’s like jumping onto a freeway, at full speed.
Sometimes comments get passed over, especially if people are following links and come back to the thread, they miss something.
Just go with the flow, hon. You’re good. And, there’s plenty of great folks here. You’re one of them.
My mom sends Dobson hundreds–she’s not alone.
Boston, the more of your self that you reveal here, the more responses I would expect to see. Being a fellow Bostonian who has lived away from Bean Town for more than 30 years now, you and I have lots we can talk about. Right now, however, we should stay on topic as we have a guest author whose work we are exploring.
Dan Gilgoff @ 101
This kind of relationship is also what differentiates Dobson from folks like Falwell, James Kennedy, and other religious right leaders. The trick they are facing is how to keep that going when Dobson leaves the scene (via retirement, illness, or death).
Dan Gilgoff @ 101
That’s interesting. Are the therapists’ licensed? If so, in what state? [For calls across state lines, the questions are more complex.]
In California the CA state leg has banned business/social contacts between patients(clients) and psychotherapists.
Criminal ban, IIRC.
I’d love to see Dobson’s empire get a lot of scrutiny over providing clinical services by phone – or “charging” for any form of phone therapy.
(And believe me when I assure you this ain’t professional jealousy: the Dobsonbots aren’t the people who’d want me for a shrink, and that’s fine by me.)
Dan Gilgoff @ 104
The condemnation of John Kerry by certain Catholic leaders during the 2004 election seems like it would meet that standard.
Blub @ 103
Exactly! But seriously, this explains why the Democrats been so successful in closing the gap among what the Democratic National Committee calls “values-first voters,” or those for whom their religion plays a major role in deciding their vote. The GOP advantage among these votes shrunk from roughly 30 points during the 2004 election to less than 10 points today. And the reason is GOP corruption scandals: Tom DeLay, Mark Foley, David Vitter, Larry Craig, even Ted Haggard. Many religious voters simply aren’t buying the GOP line that it is the morally superior party.
“Are the therapists licensed?”
[Apostrophes need love too, but not with the wrong word.]
Back from getting sand to embalm my crop of carrots for the winter. What a great discussion.
I sort of read Danforth’s Faith and Politics: How the ‘Moral Values’ Debate Divides America and How to Move Forward Together last year, and it got me to think more on this subject which has been important to me since I was a kid.
I see more evidence every day that, as with “peak oil,” we’re about to see “Peak Fungelical,” and their influence will begin to wane. I see over 2/3 of the fungelical kids I deal with leaving the faith soon after they get to college. OTOH, there are lots of right-wing faith groups on campuses attempting to replace their losses with new victims…
Boston1775 @ 41
As are many of us. . . . I’m really concerned about the Dems trying to court the so-called “values voters.” Howard Dean’s sidling up to Rick Warren. I’m a bit late to the chat but has his name been brought up and where does he fall in this mix?
Lots of people fall into the fundie churches because they have fallen victim to alcholism- drugs- brushes with the law- etc. They’re lookin for some help which they badly need and somethin to keep their kids straight. The political bullshit just comes along at no additional charge. They like the “drive through” nature of the salvation. It’s all pretty easy- even rock n roll music.
Yeah- soon to be Pope Benny led the charge against Kerry if I am remembering correctly.
Pope Benny feals more comfortable with fascist protestants for some reason.
kirk murphy @ 113
Yes, the therapists are licensed in Colorado. They provide callers with one free session over the phone and then refer them to an “approved” Christian therapist in their local area. All those therapists are also certified. Focus keeps a list of hundreds, if not thousands, of these certified therapists who are also trained as Christian counselors.
One place that FOTF finds new recruits is from military families. I first encountered it back in the mid 80’s. I can just imagine now that with the current deployments as well as the strong Christianist leadership from the top, the military is prime hunting ground for FOTF and similar groups to find new recruits.
kirk murphy @ 113
According to their website, they have more that 20 licensed counselors. They also make reference to counselor’s assistants, which I take to be unlicensed staff members who are fine at the level of answering questions like “Does Dr. Dobson have any publications on . . .?” If more serious issues come up from the callers, I suspect (but do not know for sure) that they quickly pass them along to the licensed people.
rwcole @ 116
Well, this is the charge that Focus’s critics make: that people come to it looking for help with intensely personal problems, say to deal with depression or becasue they want to confront and unfaithful spouse, and that Focus, while providing them with the help they need, tie such assistant to a right-wing political ideology. To be oversimplistic about it, the charge is that Focus constituents get hoodwinked. But it’s worth nothing that it’s not just liberals or secularists who take Focus to task. I talked to former Focus staffers who felt that Dobson was straying from Focus’s original mission of helping families by becoming so polital and who confronted him about the dangers they feld accompanied such a shift. I quote some of these people in my book.
Dan Gilgoff @ 118
reminds me of the 1956 movie “Invasion of the Body Snatchers”
dan at 77-”I have gotten reaction from colleagues, and many secular, left-leaning journalists have expresses horror at how well-organized and powerful Dobson’s machine has become. On the other hand, Dobson himself called after the book came out and said he thought I’d given him a fair shake. I wanted to write a straight down the middle book about an extraordinarly successful social-political movement and leave readers to decide if that success has been good or bad.”
good for you, being neutral takes effort……..now i’ll buy the book.
sacrablue @ 119
that’s an interesting issue. iirc there is some litigation out there on behalf of military personnel who have been subjected to proselytizing by their superiors.
As though the US military weren’t in enough trouble already.
Jonathan @ 122
the BuschCo administration is the living embodiment of the “Invasion of the Body Snatchers” — imo
christian wingers have been beating this drum now for years and its bearing fruition as we march ever onward toward fascism…. i think we in the left wing have let them get the “moral ground” by not combatting them and thinking that it would blow over… these people are very focussed and will not stop until we are a theocracy…imo
rwcole-”
Jonathon- yep- it’s a paradox. The day Roe is overturned- the power of the christian right goes straight down the toilet- but if they ever quit working for it- they go down the toilet to…so they are required to work for their own demise…interesting isn’t it?”
i have often pondered this paradox……..
Blub @ 103
‘Verily, thou speakerate true’
And indeed, why stop there…Let us steep the continent in moral equivalency as a lesson to the abject faithful – Of course, making available a ‘Redeemed out of Purgatory Free’ card for those quick-witted among the elect who straddle the line ‘twixt quaint absolutes such as Right and Wrong like Junior Bonner riding Sunshine.
;>)
I guess this is what I don’t understand. When I was growing up, attending neighborhood “good news clubs” and other youth groups, and all that, in the mainline Protestant evangelical tradition, I was ALWAYS taught that religion and politics are separate and must be kept that way, and that this is what the FAITH requires… that Christians may participate in politics but not in his capacity as a Christian. Maybe it’s an Episcopalian or Presbytarian thing.. I dunno. I don’t know when this conflation started.
What’s your take on the Bush Administration creating an office of Faith-Based Initiatives?
Peterr @ 120
That’s exactly right, Peterr. The whole phone answering operation is really amazing. There are three levels of Focus staffers who take constitents’ calls. The first level of answerers help callers who know what resource they want to order, mostly if they just listened to an author on Dobson’s daily radio broadcast and want to order his/her book. If callers need more assistance, they are transferred to Focus “correspondents,” who interview them about their interest or problem and suggest appropriate materials for them. Correspondents transfer callers who seem to be in real trouble to the therapist team. In 2005, Focus says it recieved about 50,000 phone calls–each month.
dmac @ 127
isn’t the paradox resolved if we assume the leaders like Dobson don’t really want (for selfish reasons they keep to themselves) a repeal of R v. W?
The good news is- the religious right will always be able to find somethin else that people are doin with their dicks that deserves severe discipline.
dan at 101-”The main funding source for Focus on the Family has always been Dobson’s radio listeners. It’s important to understand that millions of Dobson fans don’t merely listen to him on the radio. They call Focus on the Family to order one of its 4,000-plus resources–pamphlets, DVDs, books, etc.–on everything from how to discipline an out-of-control toddler to how to confront alcoholism. They’ll also call Focus to talk to a Christian therapist about a serious crisis in their personal lives. So Focus has a bond with its constituents that is sometimes hard for outsiders to grasp. The entire funding structure for Focus is based on that deep, and, in many cases, lifelong bond that turns constituents into donors.”
i heard that blackwater folk provided funds in the founding of focus on the family………sorry, can’t find the link, but it was wapo or latimes……..
Jonathon- no- it’s not resolved- it’s still the case that they more they move forward the more they slide back. It’s like physics- it’s independent of their wishes.
Thank you so much, Peterr and Dan Gilgoff,
dog requests tour of neighborhood
Is there another group within the community that provides the same service/s that FOTF provides? I ask this because the services are needed. What a pity that politics should be involved at all.
juslin @ 126
In researching the book, I was struck by how many historical moments there were in which the news media was writing the Christian Right’s epitaph–after the Moral Majoriy closed its doors in the late 1980s, then again after Christian Coalition collapsed in the late 1990s, and again after George W. Bush won the 2000 election on a platform of “compassionate conservatism” that departed from the Christian Right’s agenda. And each time the Christian Right has come back stronger than before. Now we may be at another of those “epitaph moments.” After all, the fronrunner of the the GOP presidential race is a pro-choice, pro-gay rights, thrice married New Yorker. And yet, given the size and success of the Christian Right machinery I describe in the book, I think that those who believe that this movement is dying out are fooling themselves.
jonathan-isn’t the paradox resolved if we assume the leaders like Dobson don’t really want (for selfish reasons they keep to themselves) a repeal of R v. W?
the paradox is that if it is repealed, they lose their hold…….that is their memory stone, the only thing they have to hold people…….gays is a non-issue, r v w is the lodestone……….i could expand, but we have a guest.
sort of on-topic – has anybody here been made aware of the crapola storm dilbert – Scott Adams – got himself into at his blog yesterday? He said this, which makes him on-topic:
Ahmadinejad believes his role is to pave the way for the coming of the Twelfth Imam. That’s a primitive apocalyptic belief! I thank Jesus I do not live in a country led by a man who believes in that sort of bullshit. Imagine how dangerous that would be, especially if that man had the launch codes for nuclear weapons.
but that’s not what got him in trouble.
Dan
What do you think the religious right will do this election? Which gooper will they embrace- and will they come out in the same numbers that they came out in for the 04 race?
If it hasn’t already been asked how closely do the 30% that support Bush no matter what overlap with the religious right represented by Dobson? Are they synonymous?
Dan,
i’ve thought for about 15 years that the U.S. has entered into a dark age
i’m not a historian, but it seems to me the rise of the religious right is perfectly in keeping with a dark age
Ed
No- I missed it- that’ll raise a little hell among the snakehandling afficianados.
Dan Gilgoff @ 77
Personally, I’d say you achieved your objective.
Have you gotten any reactions from the politicians you interviewed?
(Folks, if you haven’t seen the book, the list of people Dan interviewed for this book who were willing to be quoted on the record runs about seven pages. Truly in-depth reporting.)
Jeremy Scahill, author of a book on Blackwater, noted on Democracy Now that Blackwater founder Erik Prince “was in the first crop of interns to serve at the Family Research Council. They gave significant funding to James Dobson and his group Focus on the Family, which is now sort of the premier evangelical organizing network in this country, the ‘prayer warriors.’”
re Roe v Wade….I think, as Mr. Gilgoff noted above, the success of these people is in some degree due to their realizing that they have to focus on realistic goals. I think the conundrum about Roe which some have mentioned above is illusory. They don’t need to have it overturned. They just need to have it eviscerated, piece by piece — and Justice Roberts et al gave them a great start with last term’s abominable decision about so-called “partial birth” abortions.
The more the constitutional right to an abortion is chipped away, the more “God’s work” Dobson et al have to do by lobbying for increasing restrictions on abortion at the state level. And in Congress if the repubs get a majority again.
podcat @ 130
I don’t know that I have much of a personal take on it, other than that there is evidence both that faith-based social programs have had a fair deal of success and that funds doled out by Bush’s office of faith-based initiatives have gone disproportionately to conservative evangelical groups supportive of Bush’s policies, including Pat Robertson’s organizations. For me, the interesting political question about the office of faith based initatives is what happens if a Democrat is elected president: does the office survive or die? On the one hand, the office is supported my many Democratic lawmakers, even if they’ve criticize the way Bush has used it. On the other hand, many Democratic base voters want to see the office shut down. This is one one of those areas where the Democrats’ split loyalties between religious and atheistic voters might create trouble for them.
Dobson panned Thompson- and Freddie been countin on them southern snakehandlers- now he’s fucked…Where’s Dobson gonna send em? Not RUDEE- the lapsed catholic- or Romney- the beelzebub hobnobbin Mormon…I don’t see where they go.
oddmommy @ 147
agree
Oklahoma kiddo @ 29
I’ve become very wary of people who say they want to come and “fellowship” with me. Chick Tracts are sure to follow.
Dan, thank you for your research. I confess I don’t yet have your book – but I look forward to buying it, reading it, and learning from it.
Again, thanks to you and peterr.
Now back to canning peaches….
If I’m a dem- I trash the office of faith based initiatives- it’s a federal fund to elect goopers.
Oops- I meant- “If I’m a dem prez”
Peterr wrote,
Then @4 Jane Hamsher wrote on September 23rd, 2007 at 2:07 pm,
About 20 years ago, while unemployed, I used to listen to Dobson’s radio program Focus on the Family on a regular basis. I don’t remember the show as being overtly political. I was an evangelical in the Jim Wallis sense (i.e., socially progressive). Some time since then, Dobson got more political.
The problem for Christian progressives is that there’s no popular progressive equivalent to Dobson’s Focus on the Family and Chuck Swindoll’s Insight for Living, which I also listened to on a regular basis 20 years ago. If Jim Wallis and Rabbi Lerner (Network of Spiritual Progressives) had had such a program, that’s what I’d listen to now– if I had the time. And wasn’t busy trying to figure out how to impeach Bush and Cheney! :-)
I wonder what Gilgoff thinks about the evolution of the political involvement of Dobson and Swindoll over the past 20 years.
Bob in HI
rwcole @ 141
For the GOP-presidential race, that’s the question of the hour. For me, the big question is whether Dobson will support Mitt Romney, a Mormon. Dobson has already said he won’t support Giuliani, Thompson, or McCain… and I find it hard to believe he’d waste his support on a long shot candidate like Mike Huckabee (unless, of course, Huckabee really breaks out in coming weeks). So that means, for the primary, Dobson’s choices would appear to be either endorsing Romney or keeping mum. And I find both outcomes unlikely, so I’m on the edge of my seat.
Re: faith based initiatives, I had thought the White House instituted a system similar to “Focus on the Family”, but on a national scale.
Dan,
Would you consider reporting the Christian Right’s growing domination in the U.S. military. By the time my husband retired in 1998, their influnce was becoming obvious. We were no longer invited to social gatherings because we weren’t members of the latest greatest mega-church. From what I’ve read, things have gotten much worse since then. Someone need to get this story into MSM on a regular basis or this country is doomed.
Dan
Seems to me that the problem extends into the general election. If Dobson holds his nose and supports either Rudy or Freddie—that’s it- he will never again be able to claim to be motivated by purely spiritual principles.
Dan Gilgoff @ 156
now THERE’s a conundrum. Good luck with that, Mr. Dobson.
[giggling evilly]
wonder, but not much, how many on the religious right embrace the beauty this heathen does in the religious works of Bach, Byrd, Gibbon, Palestrina, et al
What I find particularly interesting is the relationship between the fundies and the neocons.
rwcole @ 149
True, here’s Morning Joe’s take on Ghouliani and the Moveon ad…
“Come on. This really shouldn’t be that hard. The White House is the Democrats’ to lose.
The president and his war are overwhelmingly unpopular.
The social issues that used to pull conservatives to the polls (guns, gays and God) are now so overshadowed by Mr. Bush’s war that a pro-choice, pro-gun control, pro-gay New York mayor is running away with the GOP primary.
Add in the fact that Republican senators are getting caught in bathroom stalls and whorehouses and one wonders what the Democrats could possibly do to give George Bush the upper hand with swing voters.
Oh yeah. They could attack a highly decorated general. “
again and again i maintain that lefties have no consistent media outlet…with us its hit or miss..fundies have all sorts of ways to get their point across – radio, christian tv stations, fauz news channel and all manner of paid outlets…
oddmommy @ 160
unless they have somebody waiting in the wings. Jeb?
Wasn’t most of Bach written as liturgical music? You’ll hear a lot of it at church- if you go to a maistream one.
bobschacht @ 155
You’re exactly right, Bob. A related problem for liberals is that their main organizing machinery–the labor movement–has shrunk hugely in the last several decades at the same time that evangelical churches have been growing and as more and more churches have been politicized by conservative activists. So the national Christian Right machinery that I spend my book describing no longer has a serious counterpart on the left.
Religion should be found in the whorehouse- it’s natural home.
Jane Hamsher @ 11
I was one. Twenty years ago, Falwell was over the edge and I couldn’t listen to him, but Dobson was reasonable and interesting.
Bob in HI
Do not be premature in writing the epitaph of the Christian Right. Talk2Action tracks them pretty well and the beast is alive and well.
rwcole @ 158
As Dan relates in the book, back in 1998, Dobson very directly and pointedly threatened to bolt the GOP at a speech in Phoenix. The reaction in DC was fearful and teary-eyed, and a long, late-night session between Dobson and several members of Congress and their wives managed to get him to back down on his threat.
I don’t see Dobson “holding his nose” anytime soon. That’s precisely what he attacked the GOP and other leaders like Ralph Reed of doing.
rwcole @ 158
Bingo. And if Giuliani or Thompson is the nominee and wind up winning without Dobson’s support, then the emperor has no clothes. Of course, if Giuliani or Thompson end up losing the general election and Dobson withholds support, his hand could be strengthened for future elections.
Dan- yep– Nice completion to the analysis..
To put it another way- if Dobson is pretty sure that the goopers are goin ta lose- it’s best if he’s not on that train- then he can always say “Well if you’d had ME…..”
Many scientists believe in a “cosmic force” which they cannot define. Cosmic force? That’s the kind of ontology that works for me.
Of course there’s Pat Robertson- who will probably endorse a goat or a martian.
juslin @ 164
It’s interesting though that when the Democrats bought ads on Christian radio in the 2006 cycle, they did seem to succceed to some degree in increasing support among evangelicals and churchgoers. Which raises a good question: have any of the Democratic candidates bought ads on Christian radio yet, particularly in Iowa or South Carolina? If so, I haven’t heard about it…
Oklahoma kiddo @ 174
Do they believe in Jedi as well?
Why don’t the fundies write in “Jesus”- they know he liveth- and he’d be a better president than Bush..How could they vote for anyone else?
rwcole @ 175
he could always run himself.. on a platform of offing the Venezuelan president… solicitation of murder being Soooo Christian an’ all…
Dan Gilgoff @ 17
This is right on, Dan. What you’re talking about is several decades of building credibility and building an audience, before going out on political limbs.
Progressive alternatives such as Sojourners have a much smaller base to build on, and not so much “home penetration.” That right, Dan?
Bob in HI
150 graduates of Pat Robertson’s Regent University law school ended up working for the Bush Administration, so Robertson must not be as crazy as you make him out to be….that or there are quite a few people in the administration willing to hire graduates of a religion-based law school.
dan gilgoff@176
i live in the nyc metro area and and i havent heard any dems on the christian stations here in my area – not even on the black gospel stations that i listen to often
Jonathan @ 161
Good question. At least Palestrina’s work was indirectly, by way of the Council of Trent, the product of somebody Dobson would warmly embrace – Savonarola.
Peterr @ 171
So much of Dobson’s modern influence can be traced to this very moment. The GOP was so nervous that Dobson would bolt the party that it set up these Values Action Teams in the Senate and House to coordinate Republican congressional strategy directly with the Christian Right. It is these Values Action Teams that bear so much of the responsibility for recent Christian Right victories, including the 2005 Terri Schiavo intervention, limiting AIDS funding abroad to abstinence-only programs, and passage of the Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003.
Dan Gilgoff @ 172
I concur. For Dobson to retain his cachet for future dabblings in politics, the least risky course would be to remove his imprimatur from the current crop of candidates using some ostentatious display of public tsk-tsking, and then regroup.
New Jane thread upstairs!
“150 graduates of Pat Robertson’s Regent University law school ended up working for the Bush Administration, so Robertson must not be as crazy as you make him out to be.”
I don’t see how the premise of this argument supports the conclusion..
The fact that 150 grads joined this loser administration might be taken to be evidence of his inanity.
Dan Gilgoff @ 101
Do these “constituents” also have a relationship with a local church? If so, isn’t God double-dipping — the collection plate and the radio pleas?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 174
Einstein wrote an equation to describe the operation of the universe, but it didn’t balance.
So he pulled out of, let’s say, thin air a “cosmological constant” to create the balance.
Subsequently, he was beset by doubts and said his greatest mistake was coming up with the cosmological constant.
Some recent thinkers have come to the conclusion he might have been right after all.
Ed*ard Teller @ 183
‘cept that the mad monk would’ve insisted that Dobson be turned into kinder…
podcat @ 181
I wouldn’t credit Robertson, so much as Ashcroft’s desire and Miz Taylor’s actions for that fiasco…!!!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 29
ISTM that the same idea can be applied to the FDL “fellowship”. Please explain the difference to me, sociologically speaking.
Bob in HI
juslin @ 182
If you’re going to hear them on those stations, I’d guess that you won’t hear them until after the primaries are over. The GOP candidates might use those stations for a primary campaign, but not the democrats.
podcat @ 181
being hired into the shrub Justice Department is a recommendation of one’s mental stability? gosh.. have you been listening to the same hearings I have?
Dan Gilgoff @ 104
But the American bishops’ statements about John Kerry’s taking communion while not opposing abortion? These were deemed not over the line, since the bishops were talking about religion and not politics?
Blub @ 190
they’ll warmly embrace soon enough, eh?
Dan, many many thanks, both for your fine book and for your visit here at the FDL Book Salon. Feel free to stick around as long as you’d like.
Well, I would suppose that any administration concerned about qualified workers wouldn’t hire someone based on religion, but the fact that so many people were hired from a religion-based law school has to show that there’s some “you scratch my back, I’ll scratch yours” action going on.
bobschacht @ 192
I was speaking of “fellowship” in the context of this post. Specifically, religious fellowship in this instance.
TeddySanFran @ 195
Right. There’s no way the IRS is going to say “sorry, Archbishop Burke, you can’t talk publicly about whether someone is eligible to take communion at your Roman Catholic altar, or whether someone can call himself a good Catholic or not.”
Dan Gilgoff @ 138
Given Dobson’s equivocation on the GOP frontrunners, what are the odds he’ll go third-party should a sinner be nominated?
TeddySanFran @ 188
Many listeners do have a relationship with a local church, and I remember that Focus execs stressed during interviews that they encourage listeners to give to their local church before giving to Focus. When Jerry Falwell began organizing the modern Christian Right in the late 1970s, he met great resistence among evangelical pastors who doubted that their flocks would support both their local church and Christian Right political groups. So Paul Weyrich, the co-founder of Falwell’s Moral Majority, actually commissioned a poll of churchgoers to find out whether they would give both to church and to the Christian Right. When the poll results came back showing that they would, the Christian Right was born.
I’ve got to go — BBQ pork steaks are waiting to hit the grill — but I’ve really enjoyed the discussion today!
It’s certainly true that the Catholic Church tried to dis Kerry and give the election to Clusterfuck- strange since Kerry’s a catholic and Clusterfuck’s a Demon Methodist.
i’ve come to the conclusion that fundies are determined to maintain power and if that means supporting a repug sinner for pres – ehhhhhhh so be it… its power they’re after not christ ok
podcat @ 198
Do you mean to imply that a ‘religion-based law school’ might be a party to some ethical hanky-panky in order to grasp the levers of power more efficaciously?
‘Shocked…SHOCKED, I say!’
;>)
Most fundie leaders oversee a vast and very secular kingdom on earth. Part of that leadership role is that they CANNOT have it begin to crumble- and that’s very visible and more urgent than the distant call of God.
TeddySanFran @ 195
Great point, Teddy. In that case, the bishops could make the case that they weren’t encouraging Catholics to oppose Kerry, they were simply denying him the Eucharist, so weren’t engaging in partisan polics. It’s a fine line, and this goes to my contention that the IRS doesn’t enforce its own ban, even though that ban generates so much media attention.
Thanks to Peterr and to Dan for such a great conversation.
Peterr @ 203
Thanks so much, Peterr. Really enjoyed it. Bon appetit!
Thanks guys- good stuff.
“The creation of ‘Values Action Teams’ in Congress, led by such evangelicals as Tom DeLay, Tom Coburn, and Denny Hastert, plays a pivotal role in this story.”
DeLay and Hastert on values teams? Teaming up to find out how much value their corruption could produce?
Why the use of Denny? A personal friend? He was always referred to as Dennis Hastert (R- IL) or Speaker of the House or Mr. Speaker. Denny? Something doesn’t smell right here.
bobschacht @ 180
The problem with this is that they aren’t as progressive on the issues of gays and choice as real progressives are. Therefore they do not garner the support of people like me. There is no true voice of progressive religion. In a way it’s an oxymoron because liberals and progressives are quite ok with people staying out of the bedroom issues. Wallis isn’t really one of us so he couldn’t possibly be our voice. Lerner is too focussed on himself and his own ego for the rest of us so that we don’t look to him for leadership either.
It’s a tough one that will probably never have an answer. But we’re still out there in our own parallel universe fighting the good fight.
dan, if you’re still here-
any mention of joyce meyer in your book?
excellent thread dan and peterr – i hope it leads to more scrutiny on these fundy pimps
thanks, Dan and Peterr!
dmac @ 214
No mention of Joyce Meyer, but let me know what I should know about her. That’s gonna be it from me. Really enjoyed all the great questions and comments.
Thank you Dan.
dan or peterr-how do i write dan? cuz he definitely needs to know about joyce meyer…..she was blacklisted by the dobsons, etal, and built an empire…..lots of influence…….straight talkin’ baptist…….lots of lambs in her fold….
juslin @ 64
Someone already has. Jim Wallis, “God’s Politics: How the Right gets it Wrong, and the Left doesn’t get it.” Wallis is a Progressive evangelical and a member of the Spiritual Progressives Network.
Bob in HI
bobschacht @ 220
you’re welcome to email me: author@thejesusmachine.com
recondite @ 212
Always?
Sometimes he’s “Denny Hastert,” other times “Dennis Hastert,” and still others “J. Dennis Hastert,” with or without a title.
In fact, the official House of Representatives website has a pull-down menu, to let you find specific representatives by name. The listing for Hastert is “Hastert, Denny, Illinois, 14th.”
If it’s good enough for the Clerk of the House, it’s good enough for me.