(This is the second in a series: the first, How The Economy Worked In the Clinton Era, was about the Clinton economy)
The Bush team came into office faced with basically the same problem that Clinton had – how to pay for foreign goods. The Clintonian solution had been to sell intellectual property; to keep the dollar high; to offer equity investment options; to use labor arbitrage and to use the IMF, World Bank, WTO and other such organizations to keep commodity prices low. (All of this is gone over in more detail in the first article).
When Bush took power the wheels were coming off. The NASDAQ crash had finally occurred and the price of oil had begun to rise (though the price was still relatively low). A recession was clearly on the way and neither could nor should be stopped, the question was what sort of economy should come out of that recession.
Labor arbitrage presented a double edged sword, as it had in the nineties. On the one hand it was a source of deflationary pressure which could be used to keep inflation under control. On the other hand because labor costs were so much lower overseas pumping money into unprotected sectors of the economy – those subject to foreign competition, risked simply having the money and jobs created overseas.
In the 90’s this had been dealt with by time pressure and clustering. The problem with outsourcing and offshoring is that it isn’t suitable for quickly changing projects and services. When products aren’t relatively standardized, when they’re still bleeding edge, it isn’t price that sells them – it’s having the newest and best. Having the cheapest 486’s on the market does nothing for you if your competitor is selling Pentiums and the new killer app requires those Pentiums. Likewise in a rapidly changing field you need to be near a bewildering variety of small suppliers who are capable of quickly adapting to changing demands. Those suppliers tend to cluster geographically and feed off of each other. The knowledge and skill base grows so swiftly that those outside of the area have a hard time keeping up – there is great value to being near the center of the revolution.
The tech crash erased that option. The liberal solution would have been to try and find a new tech boom, which in the case of the Gore administration would almost certainly have either been a micro and alternative energy boom or a telecom boom.
The Bush solution was different. The decision was made to base the economy on the real estate market. Record low interest rates flooded money into the mortgage market and the housing market boomed. The Treasury department structured its bonds to encourage money to flow into the housing market (by dropping the 30 year bond, and by flipping most of their debt into short duration bonds they made the mortgage market about the only place people who required longer term income could go to get it.)
Money flowed into the housing market not only from the US but from overseas in huge floods. But it wasn’t enough. Housing wasn’t nearly as enticing as the possibility of buying the next Microsoft, Amazon or EBay while it was cheap. Tech stocks had always had the possibility of explosive growth – mortgage backed bonds were much more limited and with the possibility of currency devaluation, more risky than they appeared on the surface.
The solution to that was typically Bush. They played a game of chicken. They made a bet that the major exporting economies of the far east would simply lend the US the money, even knowing that it would most likely be repaid at cents on the dollar. They were correct; Japan, South Korea and China ponied up and bought enough dollars to keep the US dollar from collapsing. All three are export driven mercantilist economies, and China in particular, using the mercantilist route to industrialize, was willing to pay the price later for the jobs, technology transfer and production facility transfer now.
The next problem to be solved was the commodity problem. Commodity prices had spent thirty years declining, but that downward trend had swung to the upside, led by oil and the energy sector in general.
Oil drives inflation, because it can’t be easily substituted away from. In 2001 the Bush administration looked at the world and what they saw was that the only oil that could be easily brought into the market was Iraqi oil. Iraq had become the world’s swing producer – or it would be, if all that oil could actually be gotten onto the market. There were two ways to do this, remove the sanctions, or invade. The Bush administration didn’t trust Saddam with all the money which removing sanctions would give him. So they found an excuse to invade.
The invasion had a number of non-economic ideological bonuses for the primary foreign policy constituency in the administration, but economically it had two main benefits – the release of oil onto the market to drive prices down and undercut inflation; and a boost in jobs in a protected market – the military and the military/industrial/mercenary complex. Because of security concerns those are jobs, and money, both in the military and in the military industrial sector, which can’t be shipped overseas.
The money that flooded into the economy through the military and through military procurement of goods and services did have a stimulative effect. Unfortunately the failure to secure the oil fields and pipelines meant that the price of oil didn’t drop. In fact it increased and the net effect of the military stimulus was to increase oil demand and massively increase market volatility. Increased market volatility made the oil market a good place to park money for traders and investors and that’s what they did for much of the last 4 years.
The reason is that those traders and investors had a lot of excess cash, and not a lot of investment opportunities. The basic trend of the last twenty five years has been to tax the rich less and to tax investment income less than earned income. Bush pushed this to an extreme, passing a package of tax cuts aimed primarily at rich individuals and corporations. Because there were few productive investment opportunities as there was no new boom, corporations passed most of their profits on to their shareholders – so the wealthy kept more of their money than ever before and received a great deal of money from dividends.
But their problem was the same as the corporations which had passed them money – other than the protected sectors: real estate, healthcare and the military, there was nowhere to put their money. Although those sectors were experiencing reasonable growth returns on investment were generally quite low because there was too much money chasing the investment opportunities.
The growth economy in the world at the time was (and is) China, but China’s investment market was effectively closed, and investment possibilities there were extremely limited. So there was a great deal of money sloshing around, seeking high returns, with nowhere to get them.
That money seized on the commodity markets as a place to find returns, and money flooded into oil and other commodities, helping drive the prices up.
The end state of the Bush economy was commodity inflation, with production good deflation. The deflation was in goods that the US typically sells to the rest of the world, manufactured goods, and because of that decline in prices margins were shaved to the bone. Those decreasing margins made labor arbitrage to low cost domiciles such as China an obvious play – there was simply no reason pay inflated US wages.
But the basic nature of the real estate boom was that it was driven by oil. New subdivisions are created further out from metropolitan centers. Each push out, each new subdivision, created more commuters who had to have oil – or rather gas, to get to and from their jobs.
As long as property prices continued to increase that dynamic was sustainable. While a combination of labor arbitrage and anemic demand which made expanding capacity pointless had meant that wage growth under the Bush administration was virtually nonexistent for most Americans, increased spending had been funded through increases in housing prices, which Americans were able to borrow against at record low rates.
That meant that the Bush economy was driven primarily by rising real estate prices. It was sustained by them and they were required in order to maintain basic demand.
And with oil prices rising each new subdivision becomes more and more economically infeasible – the cost of commuting is to work becomes more than the expected value of the house can support.
More than that the rise in oil prices slowly strangles the economy. Because people cannot easily substitute away from oil, it drives out all other forms of spending.
Which means consumer spending. As oil (and natural gas) prices increase, consumer spending must drop unless housing prices are increasing enough to make up the difference.
The Bush Economy was really the housing boom. Many months during the Bush administration, if housing related jobs had been removed from the list, there would have been an absolute loss of jobs (not just less than the population growth rate, but actually fewer gross jobs.)
Its fate is tied to the housing boom, and the housing boom was squeezed out by increases in energy prices, which both increased inflation and thus forced the Fed to increase interest rates (and therefore mortgage rates); and made farther subdivisions uneconomical. When housing prices collapse, that will mean reduced consumer spending which will make margins even thinner, making the case for labor arbitrage even stronger. A real collapse in consumer spending could eventually also lead to the far East mercantile economies deciding that the benefit of lending Americans money to buy their goods (jobs and industry now) is outweighed by the cost of doing so in losing most of the value of the money they have effectively loaned to the US.
And that is how the Bush economy works, or rather, worked. What you're witnessing right now is most likely the collapse of the Bush economy. Both Congress and the Fed are trying to prop it up and keep it going till the next election, but odds are they aren't going to manage it, because odds are they can't reinflate the housing bubble. And without the housing bubble there is no Bush economy. Meanwhile the Saudis have signaled that they, at least, aren't willing to take losses just to prop up the US economy, and the Chinese are edging for the door and diversifying out of the dollar. This leaves the Fed in a classic bind - on the one hand they need to tighten to stop the dollar from deflating and inflation igniting. On the other hand, if they tighten right now they won't just tank the economy and the markets - they'll drive a stake through their hearts. (The odd thing is that doing so is probably the right thing to do, for all the pain it will cause. More on that another week.)
And the price of oil keeps rising.
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Ian!
zed
WOW!
WHEN oh when will we learn that we must free ourselves from dependence on oil?
Thank you Ian for another outstanding post.
Ok… I am on my 400th trip up and down the stairs because I am building my new home office and the tools are in the garage…. need a different drill bit…. down I go…. find the damn thing and back up I go….
Thanks Ian, boy were they really analyzing the US economy when I was in Europe this summer. Their International financial news had their panties in a wad.
Thanks for this Ian. Hope you will give us the benefit of your wisdom about the Saudis losing interest in holding dollars. That one might hurt.
What about the Dubai purchase?? How will that play out??
Ian,
You make the case: Why would anyone want to be the next U.S. president?
Hi Ian!
So… we are to conclude that Greenspan is right? That the Iraq attack was mostly about oil?
egregious @ 6
To something you asked the other day.
I went throug a terrible Big-D several years ago. Started on 09/12/2001.
The therapist is met with for a while told me, “the best revenge is Go. Make. A Better. Life.
Ian, I seem to remember Greenspan spouting adjustable rates good and people have to much tied up in their houses. Now he’s backpedaling and blaming it all on gov’t spending.
Why don’t other people see this? Why isn’t it on the news?
It was always about oil.
What kind of economy should the next president promote?
Only one problem with the Bush housing driven economy theory - The most recent boom started in 1997.
I meant 09/12/2001.
He said, I’m not coming home.
And, it was hell. But, it’s better now.
Let time pass.
Learn from what today give’s you.
Love to you.
It’s not easy. But strong people can make it throgh.
LS @ 7
Well, the thing is, every time the oilarchies want to buy something significant, some parties in the US say “you can’t buy that”. And they think “they why the heck am I holding all these US dollars if I can’t buy what I want?”
Hmmmm?
BTW, Snarkita, I left you an answer to your question end of last thread.
this really struck me, I had no idea it was ALL housing.
Some argue that we are headed for an economic depression. Assuming they are right, how best to right things?
egregious @ 6
If they’re really serious it means a dollar collapse. If they slowly diversify it means a year or two of a relentless decline in the dollar. Assuming it doesn’t cause a panic. That means increased inflation, since the US buys so much overseas. Which puts Bernanke in a real bind since on the one hand he wants to prop up the economy, otoh, having the dollar tank and inflation go through the roof is bad too.
“the housing boom was squeezed out by increases in energy prices, which both increased inflation and thus forced the Fed to increase interest rates (and therefore mortgage rates)”.
If you mean by ’squeezed out’ that it ended, is this not rather due to the currently very shaky derivatives market, the fact that banks did not keep their loans on their books, the fact of years of criminal behaviour and fraud from appraisers and loan industry.
I must say that in all this discussion of the housing situation, I have hardly ever heard the increase in oil prices as an argument - although I personally have wondered for years how people can be so blind, and so willingly buy houses in the exburbs.
As long as investments and not work drive an economy it will always be some sort of inflated bubble which attracts investment, artificial value and then it deflates… one sector after the next.
But the guys who run things don’t work… they invest and so all they are interested in are these artificial market and investment “instruments”.
They’re nothing but blood suckers extracting wealth on the backs of labor.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 10
It was mostly about oil for some people, anyway. I don’t know that the neocon idiots with their “democracy” fetish cared about that, but I think it was important to Cheney and various others. And if Iraq didn’t have oil, Iraq would not have been invaded, for sure. Remember which ministry was the only one to get protected in the first few days after Baghdad fell.
And so. If the war in Iraq is about oil, can we then conclude our troops are dying and being wounded and maimed for life, for the price of a gallon of gasoline?
James Howard Kuntsler writes about the nexus of oil and the sub and exburbs. He’s an interesting read.
Elliott @ 21
The job gains weren’t all housing. But if you take them out gains in other sectors alone wouldn’t have been enough to offset job losses in various sectors (especially manufacturing).
Oklahoma kiddo @ 26
so THEY can make money when WE buy gas
Ian, for Americans seeking to protect their retirement funds from the Bushies’ economic explosion, might you have any specifics on how to transfer IRA assets to foreign-demoninated accounts (in overseas banks, if possible)?
This isn’t for me (I’m a direct action enviro…no assets to be seized), but for the folks I know who see the coming currency crash.
Oil is the lifeblood of America… without it we are in the tank. That’s a fact and one that no one wants to say.. no one on the right that is.
Great Piece
Thank you!
Ian Welsh @ 22
I don’t see any alternative other than high inflation, talking double digits, to wipe out our debts, but you have previously argued that deflation can work too. Would you mind explaining how that would work its way thru the system.
cahuenga @ 16
The bubble (not the boom) took off when Greenspan dropped interest rates through the floor and with the take-off of various types of CDOs etc… And that didn’t happen till the 2000’s.
The Clinton economy was not /based/ on the housing boom, the Bush economy was and is based on the bubble.
How can we expect a soft landing? We’re not talking about twenty-somethings’ bubblicious options in vaporware companies — we’re talking about people losing their homes. How can this end well?
is there anything china could do to help prop up the usa consumer temporarily (if they wanted to)?
since china, at the moment, depends so much on our consumption, i’d think they wouldn’t want to see everything go to hell in a hand basked until after the olympics next summer.
mulligatawny @ 23
The Fed pushed interest rates up to 5.25, primarily based on fears of inflation, and those fears were driven primarily by the price of oil. Oil demand is driven by continuing to push people out further and further so they have to drive more and more. The value of a house in the Exurbs is related to the cost of driving back and forth to where the work is, and it’s very rarely actually in the exurban tract wastelands.
Great post. My only quibble is that you make the ‘Bush economy’ sound like a plan. I think it was more a decentralized improvisation. I think Bush administration economic thinking did not extend at all beyond short run electoral calculations, and Cheney’s attitude that grabbing as much dough for his constituency was “our due.” The administration has most control over fiscal policy, and the fiscal policy had been self destructive, from the Bush adminstration’s point of view (at least, they would have seen that had they been rational).
The initial signals were that the recession that started in 2000-2001 was quite mild, a minor consequence of the stock market bubble. What made it not minor, and produced the worst recovery in the post-WWII economy was the the extreme inefficiency of the administration’s fiscal policies, at least as it worked as a remedy for recession. Some economist did a calculation that more than one dollar of government revenue stimulus was spent for every dollar lost due to the recession. This bizarre and self-defeating approach to fiscal policy produced a very slow meager recovery, which was then used as evidence of how bad the recession really was, and an excuse for more bad fiscal policy (more tax cuts for the wealthy sold as effective fiscal stimulus).
Of course the policy was very efficient at stuffing more dough into rich’s pockets, and I believe this is all they were thinking about.
I think monetary authorities improvised.
Your point about the glut of capital and lack of investment opportunities was absolutely true.
I am not sure about this:
“But the basic nature of the real estate boom was that it was driven by oil. New subdivisions are created further out from metropolitan centers. Each push out, each new subdivision, created more commuters who had to have oil – or rather gas, to get to and from their jobs.”
That sounds more like the real estate investment during the savings-and-loan scandal/bust of a few decades ago.
Anyway, I guess my main quibble is that I do not think there was enough coherent economic or financial thinking going on to label anything as the Bush ‘plan’ or ‘economy’. But I agree with your analysis of what acutally played out.
The rich want these absurd ROIs on their so called investments… which are not investments at all. They’re what used to be called “savings” for most people.. parked in a savings account. How quaint. They all want in to the market and the big ROIs.
Bushconomics is ruining us.
TeddySanFran @ 35
I doubt there will be a soft landing. However, the question is this - what money can the US find, borrow, beg or steal to inject into the economy? If they can steal/borrow enough from foreigners or the future, maybe they can pull it off. That’s what happened in the 2000’s, in essence.
One newer answer was to steal SS money (so called privatization, which would cause a stock market bubble) - but that failed.
The Saudis have a choice besides selling dollars. They can peg their oil price to Euros or a basket of currencies. As the dollar weakens against the new peg, inflation will flow through the US markets and weaken the dollar further. Some people think they won’t do that because of some relationship with the US that is more important. But with the disaster in the Middle East playing it’s horrid self out, that rationale will evaporate.
A very good analysis, IMHO, but let us not forget the kicker that made this strategy so irresistible to the Bushies. The oil price is set worldwide. We learned from the first Gulf War that just the threat of gunfire in the Middle East would create enough of a risk premium to double or triple oil prices all by itself. But for the Bush buddies who drill their oil domestically, that risk premium had no relevance, and they could continue to extract their oil at the same low price that preceded the risk premium. They had no increased risk, so all that extra money translated directly into pure profit REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THE WAR WENT WELL OR WENT BADLY! A guaranteed jackpot for the Bush buddies. The proof is the stunning magnitude of the record profits that were immediately logged by domestic producers even though no significant additional oil was coming from the Mideast, where the risk was located. I believe that with this heavy thumb on the cost-benefit scales, the choice the Bushies made to start the war was inevitable. And they don’t consider it a failure because that goal of instant guaranteed no-risk profit has been realized in spades. And will continue to be realized as long as we stay in the Middle East with armed forces.
selise @ 36
They can keep printing money and buying greenbacks. Most economists are betting that’s exactly what they’ll keep doing.
We’ll see. At some point they may figure the giant’s falling anyway. There are advantages to them long term to destroying the US, after all.
I think we are seeing in slo mo what would normally be a crash. IT is rather an enormous beast… the world economy and so it has a lot inertia… but the pace is picking up.
Soft landing? I doubt it. It will only get worse… and faster.
How damaging is it to the US economy if Iran stops using the dollar in their oil market?
We are to conclude that ‘labor arbitrage’ is a polite way of saying bye, bye to American jobs and an adjustment to a downward spiral of the standard of living for most in this country?
We’ve pretty much put most of america up to the highest bidder. Much of our premier real estate is owned by foreigners.
They’ll be picking up some bargains now.
Ian Welsh @ 28
Thanks Ian
One of the problems counting jobs lost in housing here in CA is most of the labor is from the from Mexico and there are no numbers. This to me is race to the bottom and with the Brits and EU seeing problems in Banking already I doubt it will be long before CW, Wash Mutal and few other go by-by.
jo6pac
Thanks again for bring this important subject to FDL
Clarification of jargon:
“more than one dollar of government revenue stimulus was spent for every dollar lost due to the recession.”
“revenue stimulus” includes money put into private economy throgh income tax cuts.
Ian Welsh @ 43
thanks…. i just wonder if we won’t see a change in china’s policy vis-a-vis us after the olympics.
I don’t know what I’m saying here exactly, but…if the Bush’s want a New World Order (per Poppy’s speech)…is there a chance that the dollar could become the Euro? In other words, could they change over to a kind of global currency? If not, fine. If so, then that would be playing right into their ultimate plan of one world government.
It’s outsourcing to drive wages in the USA down.
kirk murphy @ 30
I’m not a markets guy. But a good broker should be able to advise on how to do this. In general (and remember, you take advice some guy on the internet and it doesn’t work out, don’t come crying to me) I suggest that people should diversify out of the US dollar as much as they can. Remember - your earnings, your house, etc.. are in the dollar. If the US economy crashes you’re already screwed.
But this can vary greatly by individual circumstances - so don’t just do it, sit down with a good broker and figure it out.
The best thing people can do really, are:
1) cut expenses as much as they can.
2) make sure you’re in good relations with your family
3) Make sure you get along well with neighbours and friends.
Ian, the Bushies seem to have successfully bludegeoned Iran out of dollar-demoninated oil trades.
Couldn’t even the Bushies see the cost to the US economy of pushing the dollar out of oil trading?
Or do the Bushies have an ideological bias against the dollar as global reserve currency?
Of all the Bushies’ stupidities and self-inflicted wounds, this one puzzles the most.
Is it as bad as it looks, or I am just missing the point?
By the way…
The economic crash is one of the best hopes for a non capitalist economy rising up.
Capitalism is in its last throes.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 46
We’re in the last major period of labor arbitrge, I’d say. If the next Congress isn’t massively protectionist, the one after that one will be.
kirk murphy @ 54
They’re fools, fundamentally. They are in a death bet - the US going down hard hurts almost everyone in the world economy. So they’ve spent the last 6 years playing chicken with all the other major economic actors.
They don’t think the others will go, and figure Iran doesn’t matter that much.
We’ll see.
Labor arbitrage seems a fanciful way for corporate America to say to it’s workers, ‘look, either work for less money, be more productive, and get less benefits, or your job will be eliminated’. And as to unions? Don’t make us laugh.
masaccio @ 42
Iraq and Iran wanted to sell their oil for Euro, see what happens. So did Venezuela.
What we are seeing is the inevitable end of capitalism with all these bubbles and artificial markets which have little to do with production of good and services.
What do the people in the financial sector create? Schemes for extracting money for the economy for doing absolutely nothing.
What if we are already low income and already live in the same apt with our relatives? Will we end up super poor?
Also, if the economy crashes will it be like the great depression?
And will colleges still have scholarships?
“Protectionism”. What will that do to prices?
Ian Welsh @ 34
Um, I bought a home in San Luis Obispo, CA back in 1994 - IIRC, the 30 year fixed was hovering around 5 - 5.125 back then, a friend of mine got a 4.875 on a 30 fixed the same year.
Interest rates have been relatively low ever since.
Another do nothing industry is insurance and re insurance… they create nothing.
All these commission industries like mortgage and real estate brokers… create nothing.
It’s capitalism.. create wealth from nothing!
I would personally rather sum up the shrub economy more nastily–
cheap money
keep the currency cheap and worthless, keep debt — both consumer and corporate — cheap and interest rates low, all conspiring to encourage bad choices, bad investments and abandonment of all concept of fiscal discipline
It’s like bread and circus, with cheap money playing for role of “bread” and the various wars and fear-mongering epidemics the “circus”
SnarKassandra @ 61
Scholarships are usually paid for by endowments, so most should survive. University is an excellent place to park yourself in a recession or depression.
Don’t know if this’ll be a recession or depression. I’m guessing a stagflation period like the late 70’s (high inflation, high unemployment) but that’s just an educated guess.
Poor people are often reasonably well placed to stand work downs IF they aren’t marginally employed.
selise @ 51
It’s impossible to predict what they’ll do. They managed to get the head of Mattel to apologize to them for the quality control and design flaws in their toys, after Mattel blamed them for lead paint.
I think the Olympics could be used to provoke an international incident.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 62
Increase them. But you might have a job. Depends how it’s done, smart or stupid. Protectionism worked out ok for Argentina compared to the other options.
The sad thing is that we don’t need wealth creation for our country… we need an increasing standard of living. Who gives a rat’s about wealth creation? Oh I forgot.. republicans.
Ian,
If the U.S. starts suffering badly economically, what’s to prevent some president (current or future) from using our trump card, an overwhelming military, to deal with the problem?
(gulps)
Thanks, Ian.
Thanks also for your answer on retirement savings (and I totally agree with you about the core role of non-monetary factors).
The older folks I know looking at shifting funds are all looking at Norwegian currency (oil/gas), Swiss currency, and the Euro. They look for non-US banks because they fear their own government would seize private accounts (over a certain size) when fiscal crisis hits.
When I think of the Bushies trying to sell off Social Security to do exactly that, these older people make perfect sense.
TeddySanFran @ 68
Mattel apologizing was a big WOW for me.
If every potential qualifying college student applied for a scholarship, would there be enough scholarship money? The view here, is no.
People like car and truck mechanics will be OK right? Cause if people are getting poor they need to keep the car or truck longer and get it fixed more, right?
mulligatawny @ 60
Hi
They have already done so and that’s the fear that the rest follow. The Iranians have been working on setting up there own oil exchange so they don’t have to go through London or NY.
jo6pac
The other night here, someone said the FED could fail, i.e. go bankrupt. Is that scenario even possible?
Jonathan @ 70
It won’t work. See: Iraq. But they may try. Typically hegeomonic powers go to rest in a series of cataclysmic and massive wars.
My solution is a tax on capital. As Ian says, the problem was too much money chasing investments, and demand for high returns, as SanderO says. The administration saw to it that the most promising new technologies were stopped in their tracks. I’m speaking of the obvious ones, like stem cell research where we had a huge lead, and all of the gasoline alternatives, where we were at least competitive. Cheney’s foolish insistence on continuing our reliance on petroleum led us into a war so draining that we have no money to invest in the future industries.
Our stupid education policies insure we will not produce the brains we need to lead the world, and our smart people will emigrate. This point really bothers me. There are counties in Tennessee where only half the kids entering high school graduate. To deal with this, we are adopting the rote learning system that the Asian countries are dropping. As Phoenix Woman pointed out earlier today, kids don’t read books.
A tax on capital will enable a thoughtful new administration (wishful thinking?) to redirect that stupid rich money into useful investments, in infrastructure, education, and research.
China has the USA by the short hairs now… you’ll be seeing some interesting kabuki and kow tows from the suits.
kirk murphy @ 71
Petro currencies that aren’t just petro currencies, aren’t a bad place to park. But there will be a downturn eventually in a recession where oil prices will drop. They need to be ready for that.
Some say the Fed is the problem. What would getting rid of it do?
Jonathan what would the military do?
SnarKassandra @ 75
Good Trades people will always eat
jo6pac
46 Elliott says September 22nd, 2007 at 4:28 pm:
How damaging is it to the US economy if Iran stops using the dollar in their oil market?
—
It’s Ian Welsh’s post, and I would like to hear his opinion. But I cannot resist on this topic: in short term it would make no difference at all. There is not other currency than dollar that could be used to finance all the hedging (and hedging requires speculation on other side) needed for a well functioning market.
Over the long run, and I am talking several decades) if Euro was successful enough, it could start being used as a reserve currency to finance petroleum market, and that would produce similar situation as England experience in middle of 20th century. US Treasury would have less room to set terms of trade for T-bills.
But for short and medium term, it would mean that traders would pay for oil in another currency and then immediately trade that currency for dollars for hedging and investment purposes.
I think if there is interaction with devaluation of the dollar, well, if the US has been pursuing an irresponsible monetary policy, it would be just a coincidence that a move to another currency to peg and trade some of oil market caused some problems. If that hadn’t intervened to aggravate dollar problems, something else would have.
For conspiracy buffs, an Iran oil non-dollar bourse would account for 5% to 7% of world trade in oil. And losing that would put a minor dent in Bush US financial and oil trader constituency’s profits. But that is the only short term effect I can think of.
mulligatawny @ 76
Since they can print money, effectively, no. What could happen is they become powerless in a hyperinflation (Weimar republic) scenario or even a stagnation (Japan) scenario.
Jonathan @ 71
Isn’t that what W has already done? And broken it?
SanderO @ 80
Actually, I’d say that the USA has the USA by the shorthairs and shrub is on the trigger. We did this to ourselves… or shrubco did this to us.
masaccio @ 78
What I want is an end to capital flows between countries that aren’t used for trade or tourism (and maybe some FDI). Too big to go into in a comment, but that’s the real problem with the structure of the world economy today, imo.
The Fed is just prints money and controls the money supply and the cost of money.
The heat up the economy with lots of money and low rates and then cool it down by cutting the money supply and raising interest rates. That’s all they do.
What effect would protectionism have on Mexico? And NAFTA, CAFTA and the WTO.
Ian Welsh @ 81
Thanks Ian, I will pass that on.
(again, no responsibility on your end for results).
As you look at non-dollar currencies from relatively transparent economies, which currencies would you expect to continue to fare well against the dollar as our decline slips into (global?) recession?
89 Ian Welsh says September 22nd, 2007 at 4:40 pm
I want is an end to capital flows between countries that aren’t used for trade or tourism (and maybe some FDI)
—–
That kind of talk got Stiglitz booted out of the World Bank. Watch out!
SnarKassandra @ 83
I’m not sure.
What I know is (a) the U.S. can blow away any opposing military force not mixed in with the civilian population, and (b) every U.S. president knows it.
wesgpc @ 84
I’m not quite so sanguine. For Iran alone, I don’t think it’s a big deal. If OPEC as a group did it, I think it would be fairly devastating. I tend to think that oil is going to become much less fungible over the next decade and that it’s going to be less and less of a global market and more of direct deals between producers and users.
Don’t forget Peak Oil.
At some point the demand will outstrip the ability to pump and produce it. Then all we will see is super inflation of oil and a quickening collapse of the economy. No one will be able to afford driving a truck or a car. Or heating a McMansion. Air fare will be for the wealthy.
And nasty wars will be fought over the last bits of oil. The infrastructure is so addicted to oil weaning it off is no easy fix.
LS @ 82
Well. the Fed is essential for monetary policy management.. the problem is that shrub’s policies have largely immunized the economy against the effectiveness of the Fed… in other words, shrub has undermined the Federal Reserve, as much as he has devastated anything else he has touched. Had the Fed sought to impose fiscal discipline by tightening money supply prior to 9/11… leveraging off the Clinton era, there would’ve been a little pain, but we would’ve been a lot better off now.. so sure, they made a few mistakes.. but NOTHING compared to the catastrophic fiscal policies of the various shrub treasury departments and the economic catastrophe that’s been shrub all along.
I think it’s important to keep in mind, that setting that stage for longterm growth and prosperity is a very different thing from the short-term feel-good effects of cheap money for rich people — the abiding principle of shrub policy. Real prosperity comes out of monetary and fiscal policy discipline. Bubbles and busts come out of shrubpolicy.
How about if we pull out of Iraq suddenly, do protectionism, raise taxes significantly and adopt a temporary WPA program to fix infrastructure, institute environmental projects and mend our schools?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 98
I like that idea.
SanderO @ 96
..and that is the 10 trillion dollar question you can’t drill your way or tax cut your way out of…
It all begs the question, what will be the effect of doing nothing?
Kid you are dreaming.
I don’t know why FDR is so thoroughly hated in the US.
Ian,
I do not believe that a president (e.g., Gore) can, through tax or other policies, create a tech boom or revolution.
It takes basic science.
Plus a profit incentive.
I don’t think the US has the ability to stop OPEC nations from switching to a Euro peg, or more likely, a currency basket peg, by violence, or by moral suasion. Our only hope is that wesgpc is right, either for his reason or some other.
Ian, if economic collapse might be coming, does it make sense for people to pay down their debts in order to completely own things? If you own your house, the bank can’t foreclose.
In a period of hyperinflation it’s possible to stay ahead or stay even *if* you remain employed, but that becomes a strained assumption if everything goes blooey.
I am trying to shift into reducing debt, purchasing things that I own outright, and keeping an eagle eye on the market. What am I missing?
cahuenga at 64…”Interest rates have been relatively low ever since.”
And that’s the point. Mortgage rates have been low for many years, but in the 70’s the rate was around 7.5%, increasing to 15% in the 80’s.
The bonddad has a great post on his blog talking about the mortgage rates…
bonddad: Interest Rates Aren’t That High
http://bonddad.blogspot.com/20.....-high.html
If that link doesn’t work, try this
http://tinyurl.com/3aeqct
The emperor has no clothes. All the financial markets were based on trust and when everyone realizes that there is no there there… the trust evaporates.
This was all predicted.
The neolibrals wanted to control oil … crush opec and pump the shit out for themselves for the next 50 years while they figured out something new to run the world on besides oil.
Ian, do you sense any progress or improvement or hope in the alternative energy?
That seems the one clear way to help to get around the ever rising oil prices.
mulligatawny @ 103
FDR changed the U.S. from a 19th-century country to a 20th-century country.
A country in which government took a much bigger role in the welfare of individuals.
toby martin @ 43
Forgive me, folks, for reposting this, but y’all are ignoring it just as studiously as the MSM has ignored it for all these years, and it is not only obviously true, but what it also reveals, IMO, is that this was the biggest successful heist in the history of the world, deliberately orchestrated by the criminal enterprise that is the Bush administration, and the heist was from the American consumer, not the Iraqis. (The Iraquis will get their version when the PSA’s are finalized.) Not to mention the guaranteed military profiteering bonanza to the Bush inner circle; don’t forget that the Bush family has been all about weapon profits for four long generations.
You can’t get blood from a stone.
We have a boat and plan to sail out of this shit hole.
Paul O’Neill said Bush had no interest in domestic policy and he was Bush’s first Treasury Secretary.
Jonathan @ 104
let’s be absolutely clear about this.. I do not believe that a “boom” or “bubble” is what we need now.. in fact, it is probably the last thing we did:– more inefficient consumption of capital and resources based on cheap, ubiquitous credit and loose money supply. We need a return to real productivity growth, broadly distributed through the population at large.. and to bring that about, we need to prepare as country to stomach a period of self-discipline and, yes, economic pain.. that is what an honest Democratic president should be preparing the country for. This means tight credit, tight monetary policy, an appreciating currency creating discipline in American industry, much higher investment in core infrastructure and, yes, in education, and, yes, many tax increases, especially on some categories of higher earners.. those who benefits from the organized thievery which was shrubco. And, yes, this will lead to a long recession.
Shrub was hell.. he hurt us that badly.. the next president is about rallying the country to pay for the injury he dealt this country.. so that things might just be better further down the road. Unfortunately, we have to pay the price for shrub’s excess… any Dem candidate that tells us there’s a way around this reality is lying to us.
I dunno but this all has the sound of the 4th reich. Same crap.
SanderO @ 102
Some argue that at one time “dreaming” is what made this country great. “Some people see things as they are and say why? I dream things that never were and say why not?” ;0)
Great post, Ian, so many things explained.
Blub has a good approach but the .. I want the american dream crowd won’t buy into it.
You’re supposed to go from rags to riches because you want it so bad.
TeddySanFran @ 116
and yet, we must wait until next week for the next chapter…
Jonathan @ 110
I took some seniors to the FDR memorial a few years ago, one older gentleman who worked in FDR’s work programs (what are they called) was so overcome with emotion he cried. This is still my very favorite memorial in DC. And in the future, it may well be FDR or else…
Jonathan @ 104
I really disagree with this. Look at stem cell research. There is a market, and plenty of money, but no one is doing basic research. If we had a competent government, we would have poured money into that research, and we would be the world leader.
And here’s a really easy one to understand: medical marijuana. There are about 30 cannanaboids present in marijuana. At least one of them is a very effective analgesic. The receptors are in the spinal column, so the pain doesn’t reach the brain. That research to find that one and figure out how it works was choked off by the fools in this administration. So when you need a pain-killer for most kinds of pain, you will get an opioid, which operates in the central nervous system, in the brain. It will be addictive, and it will depress CNS activity, which is how people die of heroin overdoses.
I have plenty more.
Blub at 133
The best investment the American People can make, imho, is in education.
Education, though, is so hamstrung, as some of the comments and posts here earlier today said.
I say we need a revolution of the proletariat, but now with the new warlords like Eric Prince and Blackwater militia.. it will be a nasty fight if the people assert their demands for work.
SanderO @ 117
You’re right, of course, but shrub burned up the American dream on the bonfire of his vanity, and now we have to figure out how to live with the fact that there is no more kinder and no more wood. Perhaps we should offer up rethug CEOs for burning.. that might divert the attention of an angry public for a while.
But they want to teach intelligent design, not science.
SanderO @ 123
When they come home they’ll be used to keep us in line.
jo6pac
Ian Welsh @ 89
Are you specifically referring to island tax havens and financially friendly dictatorships, or am I missing a dimension?
Ian Welsh @ 95
Agreed. Saudi Arabia has been talking about leaving dollar pricing and payment for oil for some time. And even some in Norway have talked about the same. I think it will take more than a decade for any significant move. There will be big risks for country relying on bilateral deals for oil -how will new system handle risks? How will world investment system create new system needed to hedge and invest oil money?
So, I am not worred about it at all because, I think 1) it will take far longer than a decade, 2) this talk is caused by grievances due to US manipulations required to maintain US fiscal and monetary policies that are not sustainable in the long run anyway, 3) such a move as you describe would only hurt us very hard precisely becaue we are maintaining unsustainable fiscal and monetary policies.
I guess point I want to get across is that in the long run, the US economy does not depend on what currency is used to pay for oil in any essential way.
I suspect a progressive who tells it like it is and becomes a populist will be taken out by the fascist right wing who live in gated communities and couldn’t give a hooey. They are insulated from this shit.
Hopefully some innovative people are going to start really developing systems and products inside the U.S. that get us energy independent and work on saving Mother Earth. Down the road, they are going to have to find away to penalize outsourcing or we are sunk. I believe in the young people.
We need Gore.
egregious @ 105
That’s about what I’d do. It might work out that all debts get inflated more or less away. But you can’t be sure.
It’s so good to be home and at my own computer. The economy is a living, breathing topic for me since my limited, fixed income depreciates noticeably every few months. Ouch! I have gold pins worth more than my savings account in dollars.
OT: And appropriate as well since Iraq is part of the Bush economic plan. Here is a notice especially for those of you living in these areas. If I want accurate information, I look to those living among the people rather than a military or politico.
AFSC Speaking Tour: 23 September – 1 October
Raed Jarrar and Noah Merrill
Los Angeles, Seattle, Portland, Eugene, San Francisco
*****
Nightmare Beyond Borders:
The Iraqi Displacement Crisis and What Can Be Done To Stop It
http://www.afsc.org/iraq/tour/default.htm
By any measure, Iraq is a humanitarian catastrophe. The complex crises facing Iraq and the region are no longer limited by Iraq’s borders, and continuing violence and instability daily seem to destroy the hopes for peace and security for the people of the region. Nightmare Beyond Borders is a five-city speaking tour offering a path forward from the displacement crisis resulting from war and occupation. With events in Los Angeles, Seattle, Portland, Eugene and San Francisco, you will get a clear vision on strategies to end the occupation and change U.S. policy in the region.
Background
The United Nations now calls the crisis in Iraq a humanitarian emergency. Four and a half years after the invasion and occupation security remains in steep decline. An estimated 4.7 million Iraqis have fled their home, with an additional 50,000 leaving each month. This vast population transfer, involving 17% of the Iraqi population, exists in a region that already is home to almost half the world’s refugees. The response of the United States government has been to embrace a “counter-insurgency” military strategy that will arm and assist tribe and militias that have pledged support for a war against al-Qaeda.
There’s a typo in the title.
Should be: How the Bush Economy Failed.
Thx ;-)
the next president will get a majority popular vote and electoral college vote and yet be, in short order, very unpopular
SanderO @ 128
And they said that I am too cynical. Wow!
Young people are text messaging and spending thousands of hours on video games… and cell phones. They don’t know from work or innovation… or creativity.
masaccio @ 121
I agree. The other things to look at are getting back into production of items for export. Only this time instead of steel or shoes, try solar panels.
I think there’s quite a few creative approaches to take, but we have some significant hurdles to overcome, like our disaster-economy oriented government that’s bent on creating 90% wealth in the hands of 1%…
SanderO @ 128
No they are not insulated from this. They are the one’s that have all their money invested in the markets. They are going to take a big hit. When Queen Judy can’t afford to buy those $58,000 purses; oh my, boo hoo.
SanderO @ 135
Hey!
That isn’t all young people!!!
SnarKassandra @ 134
No matter what age, you can be cynical some of the time.
SanderO @ 135
some of those skills are military handy tho
mulligatawny @ 118
I don’t think FDR is hated in the US. Though I could be wrong.
Cassie you are a great person… but look around you.. what do YOU see?
They can’t buy 2 $50K purses every year.. so they buy one every two years… suffer?
SanderO @ 136
Science is hard. It requires focus and discipline. Finance is easy: just ask Charles Ponzi, or Jeff Skilling and Ken Lay.
I know a lot of people in HS and after HS that have jobs and work hard.
If our economy was the reason to invade Iraq, is this why the Dems dont *really* want to leave?
“I don’t think FDR is hated in the US. Though I could be wrong.”
He is another ‘divider’, just one we like better, but some folks hate him with a great passion, even today.
Question:
If Mr. X, a Republican, can make a jillion dollars through stem cell research and application, why hasn’t he done so?
All shrub says is, he (the U.S.) won’t fund stem cell R&D.
Ian Welsh at 54
“I suggest that people should diversify out of the US dollar as much as they can.”
What do you suggest? Gold is at an all-time high, so is the Euro, and so is oil. Do you foresee these to go even higher? I’d hate to transfer my meager dollar savings into something that will be tanking with the dollar.
Jonathan @ 147
He can’t get the stem cells?
Cassie, I hope you are right, but I fear you are not seeing it all.
Cassie and all watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMcfrLYDm2U
Elliott @ 118
It reminds me of the Saturday cliffhangers at the movies my dad used to talk about…
Ian, a brilliant and fucking scary post. I read a good one on the same subject at groupnewsblog.net. I’m glad my wife is in her last throes of nursing school, and I’m a salesman. We could go anywhere in the world and have a job.
Kathy/Fozzetti @ 146
The old US adage - war is profitable. Or, we need a war to stimulate the economy. Who puts this stuff out there and even worse, why do fools believe it as truth?
masaccio @ 121
We’ve got time, what do you have?
Someone I know is losing their job in a firm in the NY area. The company has sold out to another company, closed down their European offices and scaling way back. That person comes from an affluent family that made the money (not inherited), and is used to living a life with all the perks. Mortgaged to the hilt right and left with two kids and one on the way. That person is very, very worried and frantically scrambling…those are the people that are invested in the markets and have a long way to fall.
This was a fabulous post… It is all economics… Mr. Marx
I think that the only near-term relief is going to happen from things originating from outside of our country… namely the largely un-mentioned and quiet restructuring of Chinese and other east Asian supply chains that’s going on now. If we invest heavily in trade infrastructure, we may be able to capture some of the jobs created by the globalization of manufacturing from some of these countries… doing their more value-added work as their supply chains decentralize and production space shrinks (globalizes). What logistics experts call “collapsing space” — which in this case may entail the transfer of core production functions from places like South Korea and China — to locations closer to their markets. Recent Chinese proposals to build automotive factories on the US-Mexican border are a case in point. But do we have the scientists and engineers to staff these facilities, willing to work for less than hedge-fund/Wall Street salaries? Does our disintegrating national transportion and freight movement infrastructure have the ability to handle the increased and transformed container flows? Ya know, we don’t even have a port capable of handling the new generation of Hanjin superfreighters. God knows… heck, our bridges are falling down.
It is simply unimaginable what Bush (and, yes, Clinton) did to our great nation, with their booms and busts and bubbles and dotcoms/dotbombs. All economics comes back to fundamentals — fiscal and monetary discipline, sustainable, longterm, highly distributed/balanced/equitable productivity growth, infrastructure investment, education, and there’s NO way around these things… no magic wand for economic prosperity… no lotto.
FDR was a man for the times. He wasn’t perfect. But who is?
Ian Welsh @ 142
My mom was born in 1911. My parents lived through the great depression. To them, FDR was a saint, and my mother told me about the day he died…people gathered on the streets, crying. He was well loved by the working class.
OT
Hello Twisted,
I understand your team won today, congratulations!
wesgpc @ 126
I think it does matter a fair bit. The numbers I’ve seen are that it was worth about .5% GDP growth for a long period. Too much to go into right now, but I’ll see about tackling it in an article.
SnarKassandra @ 145
My kids did that. They are doing that through graduate school. Most the young people I know work hard and stay well informed. Sort of like Cassie.
MsQuaker..
It IS profitable for the MIC… and the MIC does employ many Americans and all that destroyed military shit needs to be replaced. But what a dumb way for people to produce things that simply get destroyed… Oh I forgot… planned obsolescence.
SnarKassandra @ 145
You know, when I was in HS, that was true (well mostly) as well, and adults back then STILL said the same thing: Lazy Kids! Don’t know how good they’ve got it.
I think this is more generational than actual, in other words… *g*
Nolo carborundum illigentimi est!
Jonathan @ 133
The only thing that might save the next Democratic president from being a Jimmy Carteresque one-termer is the long memory and insitutional strength of the blogosphere. I don’t think we’ll let President NextDem be blamed for the Bush economy failing, but TradMed and the GOPs will certainly try their best.
We could stop the war and spend money better.
AP - Ultimately, rising seas will likely swamp the first American settlement in Jamestown, Va., as well as the Florida launch pad that sent the first American into orbit, many climate scientists are predicting.
SanderO @ 156
Where is Karl?
Was he ahead of his time by 140 or so years?
Ian Welsh @ 162
I will look forward to that post!
Bluebird @ 149
I followed Peter Lynch and only invested what I could lose without hurting - which wasn’t much. Then I thought I was smarter than Peter Lynch and began breaking all the sound investing rules. I tanked with the dot.com boom. Should have listened to Peter Lynch - One Up on Wall Street.
I surely would replace Bush with Carter right now. If I could.
TeddySanFran @ 166
In other words, I think we’ve got our work cut out for us just as much then as we do now. If we recognize that, it should help, but if we sit back and assume all will be well, that will definitely blow up in our faces..
LS,
Most american believe that credit is as american as apple pie… it’s call in bidness “debt financing”. That’s what we are constantly told to do.. buy now pay later.
The financial sector and banks could not exist if this “credit” thing wasn’t the meme of america.
How about fractional lending as a lovely concept??
Peanutbutter says:
I think there’s quite a few creative approaches to take, but we have some significant hurdles to overcome, like our disaster-economy oriented government that’s bent on creating 90% wealth in the hands of 1%…
That’s why I advocate a tax on capital. It reduces the ability of the rich to direct the economy. They are either too stupid or too lazy to understand the science behind the research, so they try to get richer the old-fashioned way: taking from the government.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 171
Oh, Amen. Really, I’d take anyone else besides Boosh, but I think Carter’s very much underrated even by Dems.
SanderO @ 172
Agreed! What is fractional lending?
A comment and a suggestion.
The comment is that there is something precapitalist about the Bush attitude toward the economy. Not: Let’s produce things that people want. But: Let’s control the resources they need to live. Almost like a feudal rents approach to things. Note the global privatization of water rights…
The somewhat OT suggestion is to revive discussion of a Tobin tax on global currency movements, to make currencies a less attractive instrument for speculation. As many have suggested this could become a stable revenue source for international organizations such as the UN engaged in peace keeping/disaster relief etc. A key reason the UN is such a consistent disappointment is that it has no independent revenue flow and is always at the mercy of the members states. The US is worst in this regard: forcing the UN to do its bidding then turning around and trashing it for the inevitable failures.
SanderO @ 164
You got that right! Couldn’t say it better.
Sundance Channel: 9:00 CT - Cirque de soleil’s 90 minute performance “Love” - visual interpretation of the Beatles.
we don’t have credit cards.
These guys will slink away and we won’t have the focus to jail them… we’ll be trying to keep from drowning in debt.
The problems are structural and endemic to capitalism. Without more of a structured and planned economy with more regulation and control of the financial sector these bubbles and crashes will go on with out without peak oil or sub prime loans sharks.
Disagree with a tax on capital.
Hurts old, retired folks (baby boomers soon to be).
Advocate a system that taxes earned and investment income equally.
So as not to create the disparity between haves and have nots we have today.
And also so as not to foster investment bubbles.
Amazing post, Ian.
Have you read Naomi Klein’s new book yet? Pretty mind-blowing. Her whole theory of “disaster capitalism” is fascinating.
Banking is based on “fractional lending”
It means that a charted bank or financial lending institution can lend (or sell money) 10 times what they actually have on deposit.
I won’t go into what this actually does… But think about the profits inherit in such charters. And they get the money from the Fed or other banks.
Jane Hamsher @ 182
Saw Naomi Klein on Colbert the other night. She “got” him a coupla times. Not sure Stephen’s so clever with the ladies who are smart AND pretty.
SnarKassandra @ 98
Something like that is probably what will happen.
Ian Welsh @ 162
It does. Whatever is used as the currency of exchange, banks based in that currency can charge financial fees for the usage of that money. It’s a considerable amount of money.
And as a point of fact, Iraq’s going OFF the dollar was one of the precipitating factors to invade, I’m certain. It can’t possibly be coincidence. Oct 25 2000, Saddam announced the conversion in his country to Euros and asked for the supplies, etc, that Iraq got, to be delivered in Euros, not dollars.
TeddySanFran @ 185
This does not make Stephen unique.
Elliott @ 108
Yes. If it were up to me I’d do a massive buildout of alternative energy retrofitting houses for efficiency and generation and feedback into the web. It has a lot of plusses to it as a plan.
How does Canada fare in all this?
And Naomi Wolf seems to think we are at the doorstep with one foot in to fascism in her new book.
The Naomi’s seem to be some big thinkers… eh?
Jane and Christy… American Treasures!
Good post. Pithy.
What I don’t understand is why cities like Phoenix & Vegas are growing so quickly. It seems to me that when the energy crunch really starts to bite, property in those places, and the auto-dependent exurbs everywhere, will drop like a stone. We bought property in the inner city, with good access to public transport and local amenities. MrsCO works from home, and I bicycle to work. I’m hoping we will be somewhat insulated from the worst of it.
Jonathan @ 122
I agree, and I don’t think we can stress education more… No Child Left Behind (NCLB) is in many ways as bad as the war and th efear for America’s long-term economic security. America’s strength is our ability to cultivate values such as a hard-work, innovation/entrepreneurship/creativity and integrity ins children.. not to crank out rote-assembly-serfs (and, frankly, it doesn’t even do that well)… and yet that is exactly what NCLB has done to a generation. That needs to change… dumping NCLB needs to be an imperative.
The problem is the internal combustion engine… we have billions of them. The need to burn something.
Good government does good things. What we have is bad, very bad government. Radically change that, and things will get better, much better.
egregious @ 155
Here’s one more. There are a number of commodity chemicals that act on bodily functions. I know someone who was working on one of those. He could not get any funding, because there was no profit to be had in selling the stuff. It sounds like tin-foil hat stuff, but I know this person. He eventually quit research and went into something really profitable.
Twisted Martini @ 151
People who are good salesmen can always make a living, aye. And health care is going to keep growing, though at some point the rate will slow down.
TeddySanFran @ 185
I think that was Naomi Wolf.
We still have a slight lead in Space Exploration, which is very lucrative in the long run, as well as encouraging oil alternatives. I think the next President will have to raise taxes and splurge on research, biomedical and tech. Amazing things will be done on the space station if just stick with it.
PeteCO @ 192
I wouldn’t move there just because the water resources are, well, vague
With so many great women with great ideas… it’s a shame we have people like Cornyn and Sessions and the list goes on and on.
Give gals a chance!
Here is a diary at Kos comparing the economic situation to the calm before the storm, pointing out how unprepared people are, because they aren’t aware of the possibilities…or something like that:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo.....173021/409
SnarKassandra @ 180
You’re smart. Debit cards are far better. If the cash isn’t in my account the debit doesn’t work. This is real pay as you go. What’s amazing is what I thought I wanted and would have purchased with a credit card, I forgot about when I hit the next lure I thought I couldn’t live without. Practice Minimalism, I tell myself.
QuakerGirl @ 168
This is why I try not to give specific investment advice. I’m not a good trader. I think the Euro will go up, but I sure could be wrong. In general, however, diversify and don’t bet money you can’t afford to lose - some into Euros, some into a petrocurrency at the very least.
SanderO @ 200
Sander, FWIW, i and some people i know don’t care whether the candidate is M or F
Jonathan @ 182
There would be an exemption, I think just above the capital I have. Ha. Actually, I was thinking of $5mn, and the tax would be in the range of 2%. Of course, investment income taxes would have to rise as well.
toby martin @ 43
Jane Hamsher @ 181
I haven’t read it yet but I want to. The thesis makes intuitive sense to me - her examples strike true. I think she’s on to something.
PeteCO @ 192
This is my vision. All of the real estate taken up by asphalt can be converted to farming. Neighborhoods will be united by the need to grow food and save energy. The street will be come green. The garages will become places to store food. The car that has so insulated us from one another will be gone. Or transformed into a energy generating machine cause they get so fricking hot in the summer. We will begin to talk to our neighbors. Communities will be vibrant and productive again.
Blub @ 193
What needs to be done here is decouple school funding from local property taxes. All schools -> same amount of money. Restrict the differentials between administrative and teaching salaries, throw out test based NCLB junk, and I think you’ll start seeing some real improvement. But right now the crippling factor is that poor neighborhoods have poor schools and the cycle just goes around and around and around and around and around…
James Howard Kunstler had a link on his site a few months ago comparing the difference between how the USA and the USSR are suited to deal with economic collapse.
USSR people were far better off.
We’re fucked. We lived a cushy life… eating tomatoes from CA and so forth. Foggedaboutit
Elliott @ 200
They have plenty of water. They just keep it here in Colorado.
The new Dem president has to re-impose fiscal and monetary discipline.. if the people get angry (and they will), throw them the carcasses of shrubco members and their enablers… that should distract ‘em for awhile. I think that should be our strategy, and, in some respects, perhaps the best we can hope for.. years of recession or slow economic growth/relatively high unemployment, combined with years of delightfully entertaining show trials of the thugs that brought us to this place.
Elliott @ 188
We’re a petro currency now. What I fear is that we will become a resource economy too much. Then when the resource booms end (and they always end) we’ll become Argentina. But a lot of people will make a lot of money in the meantime.
And the US really tanking will hurt us big time. Southern Ontario is already in a world of hurt from Detroit’s woes and the rising Canadian dollar.
LS @ 202
I have not read the link (yet), but what is being uttered from the democratic side does not impress me. There is a huge amount of cluelessness.
I think the adjustments of this economic scenario will be very painful, and I am afraid that a lot of them will cave (FDR or fascism). But that’s just me, intuitively.
It was Naomi Wolf, although Naomi Klein is both smart and pretty, too.
I wonder if there is a way to get some of the money back that has been stolen from us.
QuakerGirl @ 201
For years I didn’t even have a debit card for that reason. When my friends all ordered pizza if I didn’t have cash, I didn’t join in. Plenty upset at the time, but the next day I didn’t care.
But it’s hard to live in modern society without at least a debit card, and hard to travel without a credit card, so now I have both. I’m a lot less thrifty than I used to be too.
SanderO @ 184
Gotcha. Thank you! I try not to borrow, so I’m not very familiar with the terms….;>
marymccurnin @ 208
unfortunately, the topsoil’s usually stripped off these sites. used elsewhere instead of being buried under asphalt. topsoil’s a resource.
peanutbutter @ 187
I think you are confusing profits to financial sector with effect on economy overall. I have no dobut that many Bush cronys would be hurt hard by even by Iranian oil exchange denominated in Euros (which definitely would have minor economic effects). But profits for Bush cronys are not the same thing as US economy.
Here is an interview with one of main players in setting up Iran oil exchange, Chris Cook, discussing some issues involved. Cook thinks the scheme will only work if oil trades not denominated in any currency, but special securities designed for oil market.
Interview with Chris Cook, Originator of the Iranian Oil Bourse
Posted by Chris Vernon on August 20, 2006 - 2:20pm
http://www.theoildrum.com/stor.....71557/8571
I am looking forward to Ian’s post on oil market. I have no doubt that a sudden move of all OPEC or OPEC and Norway, would hurt the US economy in short and medium term. I just don’t think it could be sudden. And what are long run costs due to economic fundamentals, and how much due to transition costs? How much of cost would be attributable to unsustainable macro economic policies that US should not be pursuing anyway? Those are the important questions in my mind.
QuakerGirl @ 203
I’m with you. Practice detachment from “stuff”.
PeteCO @ 211
to the consternation of those downriver
peanutbutter at 208
i’m going to go out on a limb
the kids in hartford, ct, get a lot more money per capita than the kids in simsbury, ct
about 2 or 3: 1
yet the kids in simsbury, ct do vastly better on the SAT
imho, education is not all about money
nor is it about race
Naomi Klein is the author of “The Shock Doctrine”. I believe Wolf also has a book coming out, though I could be wrong.
Klein wrote “No Logo”. Another canuck. ;)
Elliott @ 219
unfortunately it’s not a topsoil turfy world
Bluebird @ 149
I just wanted to say that the Euro came out at $1.30 tanked to about $0.88 and has now rebounded to an all time high of $1.40, but I don’t think anyone would call that an unsound investment. I have no financial training of any kind.
marymccurnin @ 208
You should take a look at this;
I saw the author give a speech recently. Interesting, particularly what he had to say about peak oil.
Elliott @ 222
yeah! how did our water get into their canyon, anyway?
Ian Welsh @ 216
we do have a debit card. and i never travel much and my brother only travels with the military.
marymccurnin @ 216
I’m aiming for restitution, too.
Let’s make it so they can’t take it with them.
Elliott @ 219
We have all of the energy we need: Sunlight and water. Put the natural, nitrogen waste back into the ground to improve the soil and feed the bacteria that amends it. We have everything we need.
Naomi Klien tells us about the FEAR thingy
and Naomi Wolf tells us that we are seeing the signs of fascism…
I think that both Naomis are on to something.
I mentioned last week that a partial solution to the subprime problem would be to permit debtors in Chapter 13 to modify the terms of their mortgages. A bill has been introduced in the house to do that. “Congressman Brad Miller along with various cosponsors has introduced “The Emergency Home Ownership and Mortgage Equity Protection Act of 2007.”" From Atrios.
wesgpc @ 220
exactly, Goldman, Sach’s record profits are only doing good to someone other than their principals (and the luxury retailers those principals shop at, perhaps) if their financial advice is truly increasing the productivity of American industry. If they create no value in this way, it doesn’t matter what advisory and trading fees they manage to churn.
Ian Welsh @ 204
Ok, I should re-phrase this question. We are assuming the dollar is going to continue to go lower and lower in value. So already, anyone invested in dollars, is losing their assets. So what non-dollar assets won’t lose their value as fast as the dollar? Could investing in gold or Euros for the future, would they decrease in value as much as the dollar is losing today?
Elliott @ 230
Dang right!!!
There are many who have no choice but to buy groceries with plastic. I am worried about them.
punaise @ 226
Certain recent tragic events (or should I say, non-events) in SF have affected your mind, punaise.
GO, (San Jose) Giants!
http://web.minorleaguebaseball.....p?did=l110
when in doubt invest in chocolate.
Okay…that’s it…I’m joining a commune…DFH that I am *G*.
Ian Welsh @ 217
It’s harder to spend cash money than it is to swipe the card, that’s for sure.
Also, we have to remember all the information collected on us as to what we spend our money on when we spend our money the electronic way.
SnarKassandra @ 239
and that is GREAT advice :)
SnarKassandra @ 239
Not..a…bad..idea!!
LS can I come?
SnarKassandra @ 244
You betcha, I’m just down the road a bit.
Elliott @ 222
I was in Vegas last week for a conference. What pisses me off is seeing golf courses in the f*cking desert, knowing farmers on the Colorado plains don’t have enough water. I wouldn’t mind so much if it wasn’t wasted like that.
LS @ 245
or up the road…nevermind…:)
Elliott @ 230
yep. jail asset confiscation sounds good to me
Ian Welsh @ 197
Health care will slow down, but nurses are in ridiculously short supply, and the infrastructure to train new ones is totally inadequate.
I have spent my life in the printing business, which people look at strangely sometimes, but it a pretty global business, and specialised as well. I’m going to make sure my passports are up to date just in case.
And thanks Elliott, it was a great game. Penn State was a worthy foe.
Taxes are supposed to be a means to throw a little balance into the economy.
The rich will ALWAYS be getting richer and the poor will always be getting poorer.
This administration just kicked it up a notch and injected some steroids. They gave tax cuts to those who don’t need them… with the false claim that their investments create jobs.. hahahahahaha
Ian Welsh @ 189
could we contract for the build out and generation with the “defense” companies to wean them off weapons manufacturing?
masaccio @ 231
I don’t know nearly enough about bankruptcy in detail. Who qualifies for 13, who doesn’t?
southwest the road?
wesgpc @ 238
so long, Barry… (Not to start a baseball tangent!)
sorry.. jail PLUS asset confiscation.. the plus sign doesn’t show up. If the rest of America sees the kleptocrats behind bars and their shoddily kids in public schools then we might finally be able to get past this nightmare.
Cassie did you watch the You Tube link I posted?
selise @ 248
Yeah, and have the army deploy “nation building battalions” as “practice” and get some value out of all that variety of pentagon pork too. Plus it would be useful in various places as well.
SnarKassandra @ 252
South by southwest of the big A.
shoddily dressed kids.. I can’t type today
Car sales are way down. The exception being luxury car sales. These are up.
SnarKassandra @ 239
fixed your typo, Cassie *g*
Defense contracting is so profitable and wasteful… they don’t want to give up that cash cow and produce something like rail systems and so forth…
SanderO @ 254
yes.
Ian Welsh @ 86
Bernanke had a choice: whether to save our economy, or to salvage what he could for his bosses in the banks, hedge funds, and financial houses by cutting interest rates.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 259
can we confiscate those too? reissue the luxury SUVs to law enforcement or something.
SanderO @ 211
Only because they had nothing! I worried about my colleagues after the ruble crash of ‘98 cut the value of their currency by 75%. In fact very little changed. They had nothing before the crash, and nothing after it. We were able to keep imported surgical supplies going, but other than that the crash would have had little effect on them. They were stoic, and life was cheap.
I cannot wish total financial and emotional impoverishment upon our nation. Yes we would be better able to handle the crisis after this one, but at what human cost.
Luxury everything is doing well… mega yachts and 50,000 SF homes and you name it. They have more money than they can find things to spend it on.
Lovely ain’t it?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 238
That is me soon. My husband and I have not recovered financially from both of us being very sick at the same time-twice. We filed for bankruptcy and got sick again. We refied our house three times to pay off medical bills. Some days I get tired from worry. Also seems like no one wants to hire people over 50. Or we don’t know were to look. We don’t have far to fall. Maybe off the floor. The good news is that we are healthy. Apologies to those who have heard this story before but I am ever pissed.
The military will sign on to any adventure.
Makes for more promotions, more fun in the Pentagon.
SnarKassandra @ 239
HAHAHA! No kidding. That’s how Cadbury began. My problem is I might eat all my profits. {{{Dark Chocolate}}}
Okay…I’ve figured it out. The world isn’t going to end, because Jenna (not, not-Jenna) is getting married. She needs to produce an heir to W’s manhood. That could be years…or not…but it is at least years..before Jr, Jr., is produced and grows up. So, I predict a bumpy economic time, and then more of the same, or not. I say not more of the same….ever, ever, ever again.
marymccurnin @ 265
:( I wish it was better for you. I am sorry.
men vs. women
protein vs. chocolate
Blub @ 263
Now you’re starting to sound like a bunch of angry leftists. Confiscation, indeed. (snark)
SanderO @ 265
the Duke Cunningham example is the way to go.. identify the kleptocrats, prosecute them, thow ‘em and jail and take all their cool stuff away… only way we’ll redeem something from all of this:– to impart through the educational value of our actions an abject lesson for the next generation
e@267
It’s not that they had nothing, as much as they were more self sufficient and not reliant on all the infrastructure we are… such a big box stores and so forth. Our life style is not equipped to live like that. They were.
I gotta watch a movie with wifey…
Great topic
Great people..
Great site…
See ya when the sun comes up.
Thanks Ian!
PLovering @ 261
Harsh as it would have been, I think he shouldn’t have lowered rates. But he’s scared of a great depression on his watch (with reason) and his own work tells him he must ease drastically.
PeteCO @ 272
..only from those who obtained such toys through crime, and, in particular, the members of shrubco and their corrupt rethug congressional enablers. The rest of the thugs, we’ll just tax heavily :)
I had this on the late late thread
September 22nd, 2007 at 2:03 am
Wigwam @ 345 The Saudis might unlink their money from ours Kuwait already did in May and the United Arab Emirates may be next.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com…..y/Business
Now what happens if the Arabs start pricing oil in Euros after they unlink their money from ours? If that happens then the price of oil goes up if the Europe goes up compared to the Dollar, and/or the price of oil goes up. We would then have two independent variables to deal with that could raise oil prices.
I wonder if this is what the Saudis are using to blackmail Bush into keeping troops in Iraq and prevent Iran from taking over? Bush has always treated the Saudis with a surprising amount of respect considering how many of them were on planes on 9/11.
marymccurnin @ 265
(((marymccurnin)))
This is why US healthcare pisses me off so much.
{{{{{{{Mary McC and the Mr.}}}}}}}
SnarKassandra @ 271
Check into local co-ops and community food programs. My friend does that and it works out great, she actually eats a lot better that we do. I’m so sorry for what you have been through. We are all one experience from disaster on some level. We need to work together and take care of each other.
Ian Welsh @ 275
yep.. and he doesn’t have much room at all to maneuver.
Oh he definitely intervened to help the banks etc. out. The poor mortgage instruments went south on them. No help for the needy though.
Mary McC,
Hope things get better.
Thank you all.
Just to add some balance, one hedge fund operated by David A. Stockman, a former Reagan budget director, lost 360 million dollars by buying Collins & Aikman, 13 million dollars were Stockman’s own money. Oh, and I think he was indicted for fraud.
LS @ 258
Please give me a bigger hint about location.
Blub @ 276
“The knell of capitalist private property sounds. The expropriators are expropriated”.
Karl Marx.
MWAHAHAHAHA!
masaccio @ 234
Please also consider that when you make 40K a year in household income, like in many of the bubble areas, a 400 to 600K house is not affordable. No mortgage adjustment will remedy this.
This is why I am against any interference in the markets at this point. You cannot expect the wound to heal before the pus has drained.
Maybe we should start FDL Progressive Victory Gardens.
Progressive Victory canning.
Progressive Victory sewing.
Progressive Victory ceramics.
Progressive Victory energy conservation.
Progressive Victory whatever we need to take care of ourselves and our planet.
Here’s what the next president faces:
A divided electorate.
A weak dollar.
The need to get re-elected.
A strong military.
A compliant press.
A complacent, but needy, populace.
Draw your own conclusion.
things come undone @ 278
In the big money world, no one loses money for a “friend”, ever. The Euro is the dollar of choice. Does this mean Bin Laden won?
SnarKassandra @ 13
Curious in Central Texas @ 287
Ummmm…15 minutes sort of south of the Saltlick? I hope you aren’t NSA, FBI, or whatever, but if you are you can land your black helicopter in my arena, there’s plenty of room. ;>
hiya PW !
Jonathan @ 293
A strong military? Perhaps a strong Blackwater but didn’t Boosh wreck the military?
Jonathan @ 290
Assuming a Democrat, (which I don’t), shouldn’t that be a hostile press?
PeteCO @ 247
Friends with medium size lawns use 30 to 60 THOUSAND gallons a MONTH to keep them green, here in ‘my’ temporary Utah high altitude town.
PW,
Have you found the exit?
mulligatawny @ 291
has anyone considered at all the possibility of a debt-to-equity swap program for lenders.. basically give them equity stakes in people’s investment properties (on a less than dollar-for-dollar basis) and stakes in the long-term equity upside/capital appreciation potential (by way of participation) on people’s homes in return for a 5-10 year deferral on any repossesssions? Government would underwrite the time, legal and transactions risks from the process.
So, to describe it VERY oversimplistically, if I have and live in a $150,000 home (today’s valuation) with $140,000 in debt (financed based off a previoushigher valuation), the $140,000 in debt becomes, say, $30,000 in equity to the lender, but the lender can’t evict the person. When the property is sold, the lender gets the first $30,000 plus, say, a capped 5% per year cumulative equity kicker based only on the appreciated value beyond $150,000.
Dunno if it we would, and it’ll be complicated, but if the subprime crisis gets a lot worse, it may be worth considering in some instances.
Snark has a point I should research dark chocalate. I think alternative energy is a good investment bet as long Bush keeps loosing the Iraq war and keeping oil prices at such high levels. Gold, silver also sound good so does getting my cash to Canada or another oil exporting country. By the way full discloseure I am invested in solar, wind, gold, and hybrid cars. It just the condo, the rest of my cash,…the value of everything is going doooown compared to Canada and Europe. (sob)
Snarky got the zed !!!!
Thank you so much, Ian!
mulligatawny @ 300
God, that pisses me off. Tuscon should be the model; native landscaping predominates, and it looks way cool. Denver Botannic Garden is leading the push here, and many are taking note. Drought tolerant plantings are more common than previously. I let our lawn turn brown so I could water tomatoes and peppers.
LS @ 244
Unless it’s Dove, where they replaced the chocolate with artificial flavor (in those small bars that you get at check out at least).
I have a PHD in Chocolate. I earned it by eating mountains of it.
marymccurnin @ 291
for the freezer - today i made 2 gal of tomato sauce, 1/2 gal of ratatouilli and 3 cups of pesto. tommorrow i’ll do the second batch of ratatouilli. veggies all from my organic CSA yesterday.
Dayam…batteries going dead…
Jane Hamsher @ 183
Jane, when will you have Naomi on for a book salon session?
marymccurnin @ 267
Marymccurnin - Take heart! Many of us are on that same slope for that same reason. None of this is your fault but you end up bearing the burden. There is a giant black granite heart on the front plaza of the Bank of America Building in San Francisco. It’s titled “The Banker’s Heart” - cold, impenetrable, unmovable and black to the core. You have your health and a warm heart. Thank you for sharing this reality in your life.
Jonathan @ 292
Actually, the electorate is suprisingly united - in feeling that all their elected officials have done them wrong.
A decimated military. Big (huge), but most of the $ has gone to boondoggles. The Osprey should’ve been cancelled years ago. But we’re taking it into combat.
Some of the owners of media will stick with their warped ideologies. Others (the better businesmen) will follow the money.
The American people are absolutely not complacent when they see their financial status eroding. At this point, administration defenders claiming “the economy is great” are getting no traction. Yeah, it hurts economically, but politically it’s the best news possible.
It’s the one issue where Americans get real and stop believing the hype.
I’ve been following polls for years. When you ask a question that has no personal impact, you get meaningless answers. Ask about money, you get answers that make the WSJ look stupid.
Bloomberg says some of those “Gated rich” are doing quite well. Time was, the top three or four people on the best paid list were always Goldman-Sachs Guys.
Goldman Sachs Group Inc., Wall Street’s most profitable securities firm, set aside $16.9 Billion to pay salaries, benefits & bonuses in the first nine months of the year, topping the record amount for all of last year.
Ian:
Truly excellent post!
Fundamental wealth creation - resources and what people do with them seems lost to America for the forseeable future; coupled to the deliberate loss of specialist and basic-knowledge skills base, future is depressing, indeed. Alternative energies development is one possibility, but …
Now that summer is over — let’s see how I did…
All but the political purge…(October for sure…)
Ian:
Truly excellent post!
Fundamental wealth creation - resources and what people do with them, seems lost to America’s future. Most depressing. Coupled to deliberate ‘loss’ of specialist knowledge and many basic skills-capacities suggests we face somewhat desperate future.
Ian Welsh @ 278
What happens if the economy goes into the toilet anyway?
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 317
It goes in worse than if he’d done nothing.
What I /think/ the most likely scenario is, currently, stagflation - high unemployment, high inflation 70’s redux.
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 317
..and It will. And when it does, Bernanke’s actions will only worsen the pain (by foreclosing on the scope of possible future interventions, through immunization).. but he doesn’t have a whole lot of choice now, does he? We now live in the void between the proverbial rock and hard place, and the rock is falling fast.
Oops, sorry about double comment, lost in ether.
Suggest D.C. be turned into giant methane generator and ‘hot-air’ could drive turbines.
Economy on last legs when necessities are made bubbles, food next - in competition with big Agro/ethanol.
Interesting times ahead?
Hey! Are we bushed yet?
Ian @ 318
I fear you are too optimistic.
But I sincerely hope you are right.
My concern is that there is too little investment in greatest resource, the minds of people.
If I’d known at the start of the millenium that we had an extra $600 billion to spend, I would have voted for a guy who would use that kind of money to jump start a capitalism based domestic alternative fuels technology that the US could be the leader in.
Oh, yeah. I did. The Supreme Court alleges that he lost.
To Ian’s point on Iraq oil looking at the start of the century, like a quick fix to the economy, I suspect he intuits correctly, but there will be no Bush insider who ever comes out and owns up to it.
Given the politics first nature of BushCo, I am sure cheap oil seemed like the key to the Thousand Year Reich/Permanent Republican Majority—control oil, fight brown people, wave the flag–that should keep the base in line.
albert fall @ 323
Yeah, that might have been the plan for the ‘responsible grown-ups’ in 2000. Too bad reality intervened. Otherwise I would now be Republican, joy riding my maxed out corvette down route 66, living off of my owernership society dividends….
Albert @ 323
I suspect Ian’s correct and so are you.
Maybe attacking Iran will improve the situation.
The shape of things to come in our deflating bubble is informed by the experience in Japan during the Asian economic crisis in 1997. The link shows the economic effect on the Nikkei for the six months following the onset of the crisis,
Preview of the next six months in the tech industry follows by adding the cycle latency of 10 yrs 2 mo….
Key: August 1997 [Japan/Nikkei] –> October 2007 [US/Nasdaq]
October 2007 down 10%;
November 2007 volatile but sideways;
December 2007 down another 10%
January 2008 volatile but sideways;
February 2008 down over 10%;
March 2008 dead cat bounce…
And then it gets worse. Until 2009.
Ian Welsh @ 318
well, if we’re going to have to live through the ’70s again while suffering through a stupid immoral war for empire…. can we, at least, get to have the impeachment too?
Upthread, several asked what kind of economy is next post-Bush post recession.
My money is on Bob Rubin and Robert Reich to put the middle class right. The job creation conundrum will at last create the necessary impetus for an alternative energy research boom. Add that to the attention to infrastructure and we may evolve our way out of the rusty scrapheap that the Bush economy created. The only thing is, Democrats still believe in the basic goodness of man, and there’s a significant population of evil embedded by Bushies into our governmental infrastructure. It’s high time we played rough with the cryptofascist movement affixed to the Republikaner party. I hate to think my father and the rest of the greatest generation fought and bled and gave up ten years of their lives only to see the fascist scourge regenerate in their own country.
Mike @ 328
It depends on how much more damage Bush’es
‘Leastest’ generation can manage.
If China decides it has had enough, how and where shall we find the mean$?
selise @ 327
Like I said before, we’ll need something to distract us from our misery. I think the solution will be trials.. lots of ‘em. For election fraud, treason, racketeering, war crimes, wide stancing, whatever. While we’re suffering from chronic underemployment, deferring essential healthcare etc, we can at least take heart knowing that shrub is spending his time in a cold cell somewhere… to the gods of justice, should they exist somewhere: please give us at least that much to look forward to :)
Blub @ 330 -
now that’s a plan i can get behind!
I came very late to this. The Iraq war was, of course, about oil but my view is that the Bush Administration’s planning for Iraqi oil was about as sophisticated and realistic as the rest of its ideas about post-war Iraq.
Most of the increased costs of crude oil can be explained in other ways up until early this summer. I think at that point there was a recalibration that started because of the weak dollar. It was only when the subprime fiasco hit that the second phase kicked in and this was money flowing out of the subprime area and into commodities. It is this wave that has pushed commodities like crude and gold to peak levels.
Sorry if any of this has been mentioned above.
Jonathan @ 104
Gore did. He was the rich uncle of the public Internet, the Senator who got funding for the transition of Internet technologies from earlier limited versions to publically available versions.
Guys, the “Internet” as we know it was a bunch of computers in a room in Kansas City 20 years ago. It grew 10 times a year from the beginning and a lot of very very smart people danced real fast to keep it working. They still are.
Blub @ 330
Hearings into what happened in the 20’s during the Great Depression were brutal. Destroyed business’s reputation for a generation.
mulligatawny @ 147
mulligatawny @ 147
FDR was hated as a traitor to his class in his day. And some Republicans excel at holding grudges.
Myrna @ 335
The vast majority of Americans loved him. It’s true the rich didn’t like him, but whatever. They aren’t going to like whoever has to clean up this mess either - unless, of course, the US gets what a lot of countries got instead of FDR.
What I want for the US can be summed as “another FDR” very succinctly.
Ian Welsh @ 281
Mary, maybe this could be useful:
“Try job-hunting web sites that are geared to older workers. Retirement-Jobs.com sponsors an age-friendly-employer certification program. H & R Block, Borders, Marriott, REI and Staples make the grade, as do regional employers that are committed to meaningful work, development opportunities, and competitive pay and benefits to workers 50 and older. Other age-targeted internet job boards include: SimplyHired.com/fiftyplus, RetiredBrains.com, SeniorJobBank.com and Seniors4Hire.org.”
I disagree with you Ian. The drop in home interest rates began in about 1983. Go look at the 10 year bond for the total history of it and you will see what I mean. The trend was sustained all through the Clinton years and would have continued with out the massive pressure that the republicans have put on forcing the market to change. The republicans are a bunch a rich people with lots of money to invest and the housing interests rates have been so flat for so long that they were going crazy. How can you buy low and sell high if it doesn’t change? Look at all of the attacks that have occurred on Fan/Mae and Freddy/Mac since Bush took office and the republicans had control of congress. The reason that China, Korea,Japan and others to a lessor degree bought our bonds was to use them for leverage in trade deals later on. Bush and company must have had a good laugh over this one. The other countries thought that we would get all shook up if they threatened to dump them on the market. Bush and company do not give a rip about long term threats as long as they could funnel the monies from the original bond sales to themselves. Iraq is just the cover story and an additional conduit for the money transfer. As far as discussions about the difficulty of replacing petroleum in our economy, I find this to be embarrassing and pathetic that a country that can do what we do in the area of technology development can’t solve this problem. Could it be that there is a clamp on technology because the rich do not want to lose the hold they have on us as petroleum addicts?
You give too much credit to the republican crooks in some places and don’t state the real facts in others. Good try though.
Impeach
Mark @ 338
Booms and bubbles are two different things. The difference matters.
Of course technology has been spiked quite deliberately. Energy’s one place, telecom is even more obvious. There are others. People who have money from the way things are done now never want new ways that will cut them out to arise.
And when that grips a country, the country goes into the dust bin. There are now very non defense related techs that America leads in - not even telecom and the internet, which the US invented. Certainly not energy.
The problem we have is that since 1971 the USD as the international reserve currency has not been backed by gold, but by paper. Saudi Arabia helped it in the short term by making the USD the currency for OPEC oil transactions, so in a sense, it was loosely backed by oil. In reality it just created demand for USD to buy oil and nothing prevented anyone from exchanging it for another currency with higher interest rates or which was appreciating in value.
As time went on and we exported our manufacturing base abroad, we became a nation who produced and exported only 2 things, weapons and dollars. Our currency had no place to go but down among countries who do not rely on exports to the US market. Fortunately oil prices remained somewhat stable which kept some pressure off.
Then the unthinkable happened, Saddam told the world in 2000 that all oil transactions with Iraq were to be priced in Euro. Chavez followed suit. As the Euro and Yen appreciated against the USD, OPEC realized they were being short changed, and the European oil producers were not too happy either, so oil prices were allowed to rise and Big Oil in America was thankful.
We invaded Iraq and assisted in a coup attempt against Chavez. Message to world, don’t mess with our dollar.
Yet our currency is worth nothing more than paper, maybe less. It can not last by brute force alone. What’s happening today is a crisis in the making that will lead to a New World Order, or at least a single global reserve currency, perhaps still the USD, but backed by something of value, which is OIL.
So China can still ship their products to us and receive our dollars. But instead of returning those dollars to us for treasury notes/bills/bonds that are in USD and at risk for depreciation, they can exchange them for oil certificates that allow them to buy oil at the current price in dollars at anytime in the future, and the prices are sure to increase in value as supplies run out, so it is a good investment.
How do we do this? We don’t have enough oil to do so. Oh, Iraq and Iran, lots of oil there. Wink Wink. Irans oil is located near the Saudi and Iraqi border, so we may just annex that and let Iraq and Saudi control it.
After all, didnt they say the world had to pay for their oil in Yen? Thats an act of war, an attack on our currency.
So we then let the Saudi’s and Iraqi’s issue oil certificates in exchange for dollars, for a fee that we pay them for being our bankers, just like we do with the Fed.
Now what to do about our debt. How do we print up more dollars without oil certificates to back them? Simple, we just get the Saudi’s and Iraqi’s to loan us adjustable rate oil certificates (we buy the oil at a price no lower than current or the market price when redeemed at maturity) at a fixed interest rate. They are then used to print the dollars we need in an amount equal to the current value of the certificate without causing inflation of the dollar, although it will cause inflation of oil prices. Big Oil and oil export nations applaud.
The number of oil certificates, fixed rate and adjustable rate need to be controlled based on proven and probable reserves of those countries authorized to issue them.
The world currency market is satisfied, Big Oil is happy, oil export nations are delighted, the dollar is stabilized, we can continue to consume without producing, gas might hit 10 dollars a gallon as oil prices hit 200 a barrel, but what the heck that is going to happen anyways. The next crisis is when the world starts running out of oil, in 30-50 years, but hey, leave that for the kids to solve.
Ian–
1) I wrote you at Agonist about the Iranian Oil Bourse (a question). After today’s reading, no need to answer.
2) What goes unsaid here is that if Bush was so eager to support his boom on Iraqi Oil, and given his bull-headedness, then he must be more determined than ever to make his Iraqi War gambit work. If that means warring on Iran just to make it work, why wouldn’t he?
3) The next President, it seems, is going to inherit a failing, oil-based dollar and economy. You are advocating a deliberate course away from oil toward something exportable in the 21st Century (like solar panels, etc). At the same time, you seem to be envisioning a Fed tempted to print money (temporizing) while there may be a 10 year churning over the reliance on Euros over Dollars. What is your opinion on the window of opportunity to a) stabilize the downward economy and b) turn the economy around? Can it be done in a 4 yr or 8 yr Presidential term of office realistically?
4) You’re really good an explaining economy in a macro sense. Can you outline what your intellectual opposition might say about your thesis here? (Can you summarize how you might be criticized by other economic schools?) What I mean is this: you proposed that Clinton favored labor arbitrage and Bush relied on housing. Is that a commonly accepted view by economists, or is it contentious? IANAE.
Mark at 338 - “The drop in home interest rates began in about 1983. “
Maybe, but they were still high in 1987 when we bought a house with 9% mortgage rate.
Bonddad has a great post on his blog that shows several charts concerning mortgage rates since 1970.
Interest Rates Aren’t That High
http://bonddad.blogspot.com/20.....-high.html
Bluebird @ 343
True about 87. They started their drop at about 19%. By 87 they were down to less then half. Big money likes 8 or 9% when they buy and sell in the money markets. When the fed pushed rates for the cost of funds index and the overnight bank exchange down for about a year and a half the housing boom really got it’s legs. Rates today compared to 87 are wonderful. Look at the big push in variable rate loan products in the last several years and the recent increase in the rates which is leading to the mortgage default problem. Any thought that this may have been planned? With rates the way they are on fixed rate loans today and Fan/Mae and Freddy/Mac do not do variable, isn’t it surprising that some consumers are losing their homes? Cheap houses on the market to buy low and sell high. Banks eat the difference and pass it on to us then scream to the federal government for bail out help and the fed uses our tax dollars to to do this. We pay no matter what and the rich got their opportunity to buy low and sell high. Shocking.