I started reading the full text of Dan Rather’s complaint against CBS to prepare for a post comparing the Democrats’ recent cave-in on the “General Betray Us” ad to CBS’s cave-in on the Bush Air National Guard story, and this one name kept cropping up again and again…
CBS News President Andrew Heyward and Senior Vice President Betsy West were involved intimately in the editing and vetting process of the Abu Ghraib story. However, for weeks, they refused to grant permission to air the story, continuously insisting that it lacked sufficient substantiation. As Mr. Rather and Ms. Mapes provided each requested verification, Mr. Heyward and Ms. West continued to “raise the goalposts,” insisting on additional substantiation.
Even after obtaining a dozen, now notorious photos, which made it impossible to deny the accuracy of the story, Mr. Heyward and Ms. West continued to delay the story for an additional three weeks.
They only gave the go-ahead to air the story when CBS was about to get scooped, and forbade any kind of on-air promotion or repeats of the report. Next Hurrah commenter scribe has some more perspective on this.
Mr. Heyward instructed Mr. Rather to concentrate on hurricane coverage, stating that he would personally supervise the vetting of the Bush TexANG story and Documents, as he had done with the Abu Ghraib story. [Danger, Will Robinson!] Further, he assured Mr. Rather that he would assign other senior CBS News personnel to vet the story, including Betsy West.
That Andy Heyward’s a real helpful guy.
For several days [after the Killian memos were questioned], Mr. Heyward and CBS News determined to stand by the story. Mr. Heyward and CBS public relations executive Gil Schwartz directed Mr. Rather to defend the story in response to media queries, using “talking points” prepared by Ms. Mapes.
Mr. Heyward also directed Mr. Rather not to respond to the accusations of bias made against him personally, assuring Mr. Rather that CBS would defend and stand by him. Relying on these assurances, Mr. Rather complied and did not respond to personal attacks on his journalistic integrity.
(…)
On September 20, 2004, Mr. Heyward and Mr. Schwartz decided that CBS should completely change its position and issue an apology for the Broadcast. Although Mr. Heyward himself had undertaken personal responsibility for the vetting of the story, he instructed Mr. Rather to read a public apology, written by Mr. Schwartz, for both Mr. Rather and CBS’s handling of the story. Despite his own personal feelings that no apology from him was warranted, Mr. Rather read the apology as instructed. Mr. Rather also, as instructed, did not publicly defend the story.
Niiiice.
Okay, one more:
At the time the Panel [to investigate what went wrong] was announced, CBS News President Andrew Heyward instructed the entire CBS News department to curtail any further investigation of the story underlying the Broadcast. Mr. Rather reminded Mr. Heyward that numerous leads remained open which should be investigated, and stated that if CBS News would not continue to investigate them he would personally retain a private investigator to pursue them. Mr. Heyward urged Mr. Rather to refrain from taking such action. He informed Mr. Rather that CBS News would retain a private investigator to thoroughly pursue all leads, and that all information uncovered by such investigator would be made available to Mr. Rather. In reliance on Mr. Heyward’s aforesaid promise, Mr. Rather did not retain any investigator.
Erik Rigler, the investigator hired by CBS, concluded that “the Killian Documents were probably authentic, and that the underlying facts in the Broadcast were certainly accurate.” This was not mentioned at all in the Panel report (which, ironically, also faulted Rather for supporting the memos’ authenticity for too long), and Rather was never given access to Rigler’s materials as promised. It is also worth noting that, per the complaint, Karl Rove managed Panel Chair Richard Thornburgh’s unsuccessful PA Senate campaign…
This whole sorry episode reeks of ratfuckery to me, with Viacom chairman and unabashed Bush supporter Sumner Redstone using Heyward as Rather’s minder and eventual hitman. Heyward’s actions went beyond simple incompetence and well into deliberate sabotage. His stalling of the Abu Ghraib story and forcing Rather (The Most Trusting Man On Earth) to take the fall for Heyward’s own questionable vetting were particularly heinous.
This also explains a question I’ve had for quite some time: Why didn’t Rather and CBS simply point out that even without the documents, the underlying story was still rock-solid? Dubya really did pull strings to get out of serving in a war he supported, and he really did quit his TANG commitment a year early.



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zed?
drat…the trifecta goes flitting away…
dos?
dakine the pork chop, potato and gravy king!!
’s ok, I can’t count either. Hey Eli!
Hey, LL!
I find a litigator rinse helps but does tend to leave tangles from time to time. *s*
Hi Eli… off to read the post.
I’m gonna read, too, Eli, and will be back later. Got a b*tch of a headache tonight.
the whole thing sucks
rather was suckered with a document typed in times roman, which didn’t exist in 1969
he was beautifully set up
he fell for the bait
i hope he wins his suit
feel better LouDou!
Hiya, Eureka!
Yeah, kind of a long one today…
Loo Hoo. @ 4
You just caught me on an off day – my fried chicken is far better than my pork chops.
In which case, I hope that Dan Rather will take Sumner Redstone et al. to the mat – not accept any sort of deal or payoff – but right down to the mat and get everything out. Rat Fornication Indeed.
I had a couple of friends who tried to join the National Guard (in 1965) to get out of going to ‘Nam. There was a waiting line for this ‘out’ a mile long they said. They got drafted. One of these guys never made it home. Of course George W. Bush didn’t face the ‘in-line problem’. Rather was right.
Thing is, Eli. Everyone knew at the time that Bush was a lilly-livered, chickenshit. They voted for him anyway. Everybody knew he didn’t serve his time in the Texas National Guard. If he had, he could simply have produced the paperwork. Why in the world did this work out this way.
That’s why I’m so pissed off at the democrats at the end of this miserable week.
Excellent post there Eli, and I agree with Jonathan. I hope Rather nails the suckers.
See you all in a little bit.
I am glad Rather is doing this. It will not be helpful to the Republicans in anyway.
I strongly believe that we have to take the corporate media down. They are poisoning our society. If we can put liberals in the majority in congress, we can pass laws that will break up the media conglomerates and return the airwaves to the people.
I honestly believe that our liberal revolution cannot happen unless we take them down. A large percentage of the population believes what they see on the TeeVee.
Jefferson Airplane:
LoudounLib @ 8
It’s no wonder when you count on the people you have supported and voted to to straighten things out and many don’t.
AZ Matt @ 17
I think it could provide a great opportunity to start examining how the media really operates hand-in-hand with the GOP. It could get very interesting.
Rob Zuber @ 18
I’ve been saying this for a while. Literally since my first post here, in fact.
Hi Eli!
Can’t be paranoid enough these dayd. This matches what I’ve always believed, though I’ve never had any hard evidence.
There is something rodent in the state of Redstone.
Hi Elliott!
Jonathan @ 9
No, the story used to falsify the docs was that a 69 IBM Selectric couldn’t do proper superscripts. But it could. That’s back when IBM was actually a pretty incredible company.
taking the corporate media down means taking down the whole power structure in this country
it’s not an isolated fight
I wasn’t watching television or aware of blogs when this story happened. This post puts a lot of bits and pieces I have read in perspective.
Any idea when the trial starts?
GordonM @ 25
I guess I read things incorrectly.
Maybe I did.
GordonM @ 25
The documents were poorly vetted, never fully authenticated, but as far as I know, never fully discredited either.
Jane Hamsher @ 21
Any documentation between the White House and CBS ought to be interesting. Edward R. Murrow will cry in heaven.
Thank God for Olbermann.
Wishing for a watershed moment…
Eureka Springs @ 29
The overall TANG story is what first made me aware of blogs. I remember being mesmerized by a long Kevin Drum post (well before the CBS story) on the subject back when he was CalPundit, and the comments, and all of Paul Lukasiak’s research.
Jane Hamsher @ 21
It is seriously important that this backstory get out along with the news about the suit, so that the case’s merit is common knowledge, and it is thus not seen as a harrassment or sour-grapes suit,
IMO.
Hugh @ 26
Nice Sumnery.
LoudounLib @ 8
suggested this to Suzanne when i didn’t realise her headache was migraine.
massage the area between the thumb and index finger.there will be soreness.gentley push/knead the soreness toward the joint.takes about 10/15 minutes.
hope this helps.
it works for me.
When you get right down to it, who’s responsibility is it to make good decisions on how each of us vote?
Loo Hoo. @ 15
But that leads into the good news. Moveon has raised nearly $1 million since the vote to condemn them.
This has been masterful.
Moveon buys a full page ad at standby rates (cheap).
Rethugs do their outrage (more coverage).
Media goes along (now Moveon has reached 10,000 X the audience they paid for).
Dems do their inside-the-beltway calculations and condemn Moveon.
Moveon, as a result, raises nearly $1 million.
It has just been made clear that anybody claiming Moveon is “fringe leftwing” is actually “fringe rightwing”. Moveon has taken the mantle from the politicians. Moveon gets to set the agenda.
HOORAY for Moveon!!!
What is amazing is that the TANG story came out in 2004 and even though CBS didn’t pursue it, no other news source did either. OK, it really isn’t amazing. Look at Iraq, the whole Petraeus scam, all right there for the media to dismantle and expose. Yet they did almost no serious questioning of Petraeus or his “facts”.
may @ 38
You sound just like my mom, who used to be a reflexologist…
gosh this is so 2004
the spectre of being revealed for the awol clown that he is and suddenly every Republican is a gold star mutha
last time the swiftboats
now the invasion of moveon
ah the discovery process
even the bush media bubble will not be able to protect him
awol then
awol now
GordonM @ 40
The vote didn’t discredit MoveOn, it discredited the *Democrats*. It was still a very bad thing, and very dispiriting to realize just how little the Democratic party thinks of us.
GordonM at 40
yes
i gave to moveon yesterday
and today
and will give again tomorrow
katherine Graham Cracker @ 43
Hey, I remember you *from* Drum’s place…
Jonathan @ 9
YOU’RE WRONG! IT WAS INVENTED IN 1931LINKY
This typeface — Times New Roman — didn’t exist in the early 1970s.”
There are several problems with this theory. First, Times New Roman, as a typeface, was invented in 1931. Second, typewriters were indeed available with Times New Roman typefaces.
And third, this isn’t Times New Roman, at least not the Microsoft version. It’s close. But it’s not a match.
For example, the ‘8′ characters are decidedly different. The ‘4’s, as viewable on other memos, are completely different; one has an open top, the other is closed.
So yes, we have proven that two typefaces that look similar to each other are indeed, um, similar. At least when each document is shrunk to 400-500 pixels wide… and you ignore some of the characters.
“Documents back then didn’t have superscripted ‘th’ characters”
lolo @ 47
plus there were documents the other side had dated from that same time, and at least one had the superscript “th” but nobody paid that no nevermind after Rather was blasted out of the water.
lolo @ 47
Bush’s own *promotion memo* had superscript…
GordonM, trust me, so far this month, I have ONLY donated to MoveOn. (Okay, I’m a teacher without an August paycheck so I’ll donate to FDL again next check!) I am not giving to the DNC or any of them until they can lasso the troops to speak with one voice on the issue of Iraq. The Bush Dogs must be replaced. And I will contribute to those candidates willing to take them down, long as Howie approves of them. I know we have had some disappointments here and there, but overall, Howie has the goods.
Eli @ 42
this is an acupuncture point.
i am not a proffessional alternative
practitioner
but am a beneficiary of some alternative therapies.
“This whole sorry episode reeks of ratfuckery to me, with Viacom chairman and unabashed Bush supporter Sumner Redstone using Heyward as Rather’s minder and eventual hitman. “
1. Yep, Eli, you’ve hit the nail on the head. Tis exactly what happened.
2. The later years of Nam went down as I was in late jr. high-high school here in Dallas. Back in the day, it was VERY common knowledge amongst us stupid kids that the Texas guard units were a sham.
They were all called “The Champagne Brigades”…..true! In fact, I even have a VERY vague memory of an article from the old Dallas Times Herald ( now defunct…..but also once was Ivin’s newspaper) that wrote about the Tx. units and how they were indeed the ranks of the powerful and privileged. All very true.
3. To this very day, I get my ass VERY chapped when I think of that chicken-shit Bush who was too yellow to fight….and now he struts around like some cowboy legend. He can go right to hell.
4. Keep up the good work Eli.
Ghostman
Thanks, Ghostman.
GordonM @ 27
One Friday White House docu-dump during the “truthsquadding” of Rather’s TANG story had supposedly contemporaneous documents, intended to refute the documents CBS had. These also had superscript.
How this became a font war instead of a story about a War President who would neither serve in battle nor complete his cushy get-outta-war service: Americans deserve to be told.
Thanks to Dan Rather for helping tell it get told right.
Courage, sez Mary Mapes.
Amazing. Chile and Peru have more of a sense of justice than our nation does. Think George Bush will ever see the inside of a jail cell for his war crimes?
Chile’s supreme court has ruled that Alberto Fujimori, the former president of Peru, will be extradited to face charges of embezzlement and human rights abuses.
Fujimori was the leader of Peru between 1990 and 2000 and has been under house arrest on an international warrant since he arrived in Chile in November 2005.
Eureka Springs @ 37
LOL
1,605 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Eli and the Firepup Patriots:
Brother Eli, you win another people’s “medal of freedom” for this post…this is investigative analysis and reporting that would make ol’ I.F. Stone proud. This kind of analysis of the structure of the corporate media propaganda machine and it’s synergy with the administration of political power can only be done on the blogs and by intellects like yours.
I hope blogs like FDL can develop special sections like syndicated columns in the printed media or “special reports” on the talkin’ head media to allow folks like you to on a regular basis analyze stories like the Rather assassination and put the names and faces into larger context of other stories with the same political propose of the Rather torpedoing and the sheltering of the Abu Grab story.
Again, this is stuff that reads like “All The President’s Men” and is all over out there if folks with the chops you have can get it out. Keep up the people’s work there, Eli and…
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION ‘CUZ THE BASTARDS’LL BE COMIN’ AFTER YOU NEXT!!
may @ 51
Okay so someone PLEASE tell me – what’s the acupuncture point for painful neck spasms or a crick in the neck?
Whew! At least Blackwater can continue their killing in Iraq. What a relief! Via C&L:
A US embassy spokeswoman said the decision to allow Blackwater to resume work had been taken in consultation with the Iraqi government.
The spokeswoman, Mirembe Nantongo, said Blackwater operations would be limited to essential missions only outside Baghdad’s heavily-fortified Green Zone.
George Bush, the US president, has said he remains hopeful of convincing Iran to give up what he said was its nuclear “weapons programme” through diplomatic means.
The remarks come a day after Iran, responding to French comments about the possibility of war over its nuclear activities, said it would defend itself if Israel were to attack it.
Bush said: “I have consistently stated that I am hopeful we can convince the Iranian regime to give up any ambitions it has in developing a weapons programme and do so peacefully.”
He said he took Iranian threats toward Israel “very seriously” and added “Israel is our very firm and strong ally.”
Loo Hoo. @ 59
phew!
Thanks, Norske, you’re too kind. I just read *one* 32-page PDF, and Heyward’s name just kept jumping out at me every time something dodgy was happening.
An exhaustive LA Times investigation reveal that “Declassified papers show U.S. atrocities went far beyond My Lai.”
John Kerry began his testimony before the Fulbright Committee with:
Now fucking McCain is going to get up and say the Move On ad was an insult to the motherfucking officer corps. Take a look at how many enlisted troopers are in the SBVT. Fuck em.
Loo Hoo. @ 50
That is the strategy to get even. To get the most bang for the buck, look for liberal challengers in inexpensive media markets. Larry Kissel is an example.
For first time, Iran directly confronts Israel on alleged nuclear arms
Israel accused Iran of lying, while Tehran challenged the international community to send inspectors to probe of its arch-rival’s nuclear capabilities, in an unusually bitter and rare direct confrontation on Friday.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/906132.html
Well, this goes far toward explaining why CBS after dumping Rather hired Katie Couric, a safe bubblehead.
raven,
did you see any such atrocities?
i didn’t, although i saw some ARVN abuses
Mr. Rather is not doing this for the money.
GordonM @ 27
I believe the document was false, based on this little bit of evidence. When it came out, the Bushies were extremely careful to not comment on the document, in a peculiar way that made me conclude that it was bait for a trap. (I don’t remember the details).
Jonathan @ 67
Nope. But I also think guys like McCain committed atrocities from the air that no one ever even thinks about.
This isn’t just another one of the many stories that were deep-sixed in the runup to the 2004 elections. The list is long, but this one truly does belong at the top of the heap. For it not only put the chill on the other news agencies (quite effectively), causing them to avoid any further investigation, but it also goes right to the heart of POTUS’s character (if there is one–I rather think not). Rather was swift-boated, given a swift kick, double-crossed, framed, hung out to dry, and left to twist in the wind by everyone from Karl Rove to, apparently, Mr. Times New Roman didn’t exist in 1969 (see above). Won’t somebody, please, take up the cudgels and bang this story til it reverberates up and down the country. Surely, surely, there must be someone who can weasel the truth out of whomever knows what went on, or at least provide enough corroborating evidence to once3 and for all put Bush, this story, and CBS to bed, once and for all.
Pleeeeeeeeeeeese
raven @ 70
But, then had atrocities heaped upon him, compliments of the Hanoi Hilton…! Why did he stray from the path…???
Eli @ 31
Dammit, I can’t find the link. The PI hired by CBS (not Rather) believed the docs to be authentic, but was really hired to find dirt on Rather and Mapes. CBS ignored the “authentic” part of the report.
When Rather finally did hire his own PI, that’s when he found out CBS was deliberately undermining him. Thus the lawsuit.
The “inauthentic” story, IIRC, was a Freeper comment (oh, there was no technology to do that in the 60s!) which was picked up by Drudge and thus entered the lizard brain of our post-Reagan media.
In the late 80s I was still maintaining late 60s / early 70s IBM office equipment that you couldn’t get replacment parts for. Heck, you could get 20x or more the original price for used (probably dead) equipment just for the scavange parts.
CTuttle @ 72
Faulty transponder.
1,605 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Eli and the Firepup Patriots:
“I just read one 32 page PDF…”
That’s all I.F. Stone would do…he would pour over the documents of little known hearings or federal department audits or inspector general reports. Get original source quotes and narratives and piece ‘em tagether. If ya go back and read his newsletters over time, they read like political novels and all the dialogue and analysis comes from public sources of the people’s representatives .
Again…see how much fun it was (lots a work though) and how important a narrative is there to publish if somebody with the wherewithal will do the work. The very large space that the passing of I.F Stone left is just waitin’ to be filled.
KEEP THE FAITH BUT DO THE WORK!!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 65
Israel has never denied having nuclear arms nor signed a treaty promising not to acquire them.
BigMitch @ 69
That’s in the Rather complaint as well. Bartlett refused to disavow the memos.
NorskeFlamethrower @ 75
Nice references to Stone in the biography of Bernard Fall I just finished.
OT..Two Headlines to torture fundie’s:
Clinics to grow human eggs
link
Guess who got a V.I.P. tour of the Capitol Thursday?
Porn star – no, make that former porn star – and big Hillary Clinton fan Jenna Jameson.
link
CT,
IMO, McCain ate some rat poison somewhere along the way.
BigMitch @ 76
True, compliments of the US, and, yes they were never signatories of the Non-Proliferation Treaty…
AP – Federal prosecutors are investigating whether employees of the private security firm Blackwater USA illegally smuggled into Iraq weapons that may have been sold on the black market and ended up in the hands of a U.S.-designated terrorist organization, officials said Friday.
Jonathan @ 80
and it shows
Jonathan @ 80
Is that why his jaw looks so weird these days? If you look at him, his left hand side (on the viewer’s right) looks all swollen up.
Karma’s a bitch, Dan.
They played you for a patsy — kinda ironic, innit?
Meanwhile…
Blackwater isn’t going anywhere.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq…..10,00.html
Here’s one reason why:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new…..world.html
The Elect have nooooo problem slang’n to the Preterite.
Jonathan @ 80
Heh, no remorse for Saint McCain, eh? ;-)
Oklahoma kiddo @ 82
Is this connected with the DPC hearings this morning?
CTuttle @ 72
I believe that McCain’s handlers saw how Bush got into office and decided to follow his gameplan by repeating those same talking points … McCain should realize that Americans have become wise to this charade …
GordonM @ 73
That’s in my post, actually. He “believed” the docs were authentic, but he was only “certain” that the story itself was authentic.
The innocent, non-ratfuck explanation for the WH refusal to disavow the docs is that they knew that Killian did write those memos, and weren’t sure if CBS had the real thing.
BigMitch @ 76
I realize that. And your point is?
CTuttle @ 81
What makes you think that Israel got its nuclear arms from someone else? Do you have evidence?
KestrelBrighteyes @ 58
i’m sorry
don’t know the answer to that one
if you seek professional answers
make sure the person is properly qualified.
proper acupuncturists train for (i think)seven years and have a recognised association.
the alternative therapies field is strewn with traps for young players(so to speak)sceptism and verification are the go.
i found also, that cost and efficacy were not the same.true healers are not in it for the money.
sorry to go off thread.
Eli @ 44
You’re not getting it. We now have a national advocacy group that can buy advertising on prime time. Yes, it would have been nice if the Dems had stepped up, but they didn’t. But the people have stepped up, and Moveon is now a force to be reckoned with.
The lack of campaign finance reform has been flipped on it’s head. The Supreme Court says money is free speech? Well then, listen to this assholes!
I don’t think he is asking for nearly enough money. He should add a zero for punative damages.
Jonathan @ 80
result of cancer treatment
Petrocelli @ 89
He’s long since lost his ‘Maverick’ appeal…!!!
How fortunate we are to be living in a time when all of this information can be shared!
I live on a secluded one-lane road that winds through the hills in Tennessee (though the road is paved now and we’re no longer on a well – civilization is coming slowly to my little valley). My closest neighbor works for the government in some intelligence capacity (I’m interviewed every few years for his security clearance – in fact, I spoke with one of the investigators today).
We got internet here in 1984. We got cable last year. I don’t even get a newspaper.
At times I feel like a blue island in a sea of red. Help! Send granola and protein smoothies!
*
And good luck to Dan Rather – he might want to avoid flying on small planes until this is all settled.
Toby Wollin @ 87
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200…..ater_probe
Jonathan @ 80
Too funny, I’m right now talking to my mom about rat poison for her infestation!
GordonM @ 93
Brilliant !!!
“Any dictator would admire the uniformity and obedience of the [U.S.] media.”
-Noam Chomsky
Just in case it hasn’t been posted
Oklahoma kiddo @ 90
There are some who like to accuse Israel of doing illegal things, when, in fact they are not illegal. This is one area where this occurs. Your comment seemed to place Iran and Israel on the same moral plane.
1,605 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Raven and the Firepup Patriots:
“Nice references to Stone in the biography of Bernard Fall I just finished.”
Great, brother Raven, who wrote it and when…now that the kids are out and my wife desperately wants me to find sompthin ta do besides walk the dog, I been readin’ again. I’ve been pleasantly surprised at the level of contemporary history writin’…I jest might lose some a this cynicism that’s been chasin me fer 26 years.
KEEP THE FAITH AND TEACH YER KIDS BEFORE THE BASTARDS GET OUR SOCIAL SECURITY!!
KestrelBrighteyes @ 97
How far are you from The Farm?
klyde @ 101
Had never seen that although am a great admirer of Chomsky. Thanks for the quote.
GordonM @ 93
Sure, MoveOn is great, but the fact remains that almost half of the Democrats betrayed the netroots to protect Bush’s pet liar.
And *all* of them except Feingold voted for Barbara Boxer’s bullshit “We must never accuse anyone in the military of lying” version.
KestrelBrighteyes @ 97
I hope your little valley is untouched largely by modern civilization and un-polluted. Sounds great.
CTuttle @ 96
For me, most Canadians and people around the world, when McCain backed the Iraq invasion, he lost all credibility there and then.
There were too many objective experts with far more knowledge saying Saddam was not linked to 9/11 and BushCo did everything to lie America into this.
I’ll be leaving soon, and I hope someone else will pick up the task of presenting the truth about Israel, to combat lies and bias against that State.
OT..Toby Wollin..Was it you that asked about cell phones? EPU’d about five threads ago.
link
Dan Rather and Moveon. I think I was so disgusted yesterday with the stupid Dems voting alongside Republikans on Cornyns vanity legislation, after letting the f*ckers shelve habeas and the Webb ammdt. I haven’t had such a moment since HoJoe screwed us on Alito. So I am completely delighted by all below. Just goes to show once again inside the beltway, wannabes and courtiers (the press) are so out of touch:
Caw, caw!
KestrelBrighteyes @ 97
I’m sure his reputation’s estate would continue to pursue the case.
KEEP THE FAITH AND TEACH YER KIDS BEFORE THE BASTARDS GET OUR SOCIAL SECURITY!!
His wife. She put it down when he died to raise their girls. Bernard Fall
Oklahoma kiddo @ 98
and for transcripts and replay try here
thanks selise!
BigMitch @ 91
I remember reading credible sources, dead tree awhile back, that under Reagan numerous NBC was distributed throughout the ME, Biological and Chemical to Saddam and Nuclear to Israel…!!!
GordonM @ 73
Boston’s winning and the Yanks are losing, and I have to get ready to celebrate Yom Kippur, which coincidently is the anniversary of the sneak attack on Israel by the combined forces of several Arab armies.
raven @ 104
I’m thinking it’s like an hour and a half to two hours. I’ve been there a couple times (liberal homeschoolers used to visit the Farm School every now and then for parties with the kids and such, and we toured the Ecovillage for one of our classes), but it’s been awhile.
Why?
WTF???? They want our blood and saliva? Why?:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/n…..E_ID=57733
Loo Hoo. @ 99
McCain has invaded her home ?!! *g*
Dayim, I had really resolved not to do play by play. Suffice it to say, the Yankees are not losing anymore.
Steve-AR @ 110
Yes, Steve, that was me and thanks so much.
BigMitch @ 117
Keep em honest Big Mitch. L’CHAIM
LS @ 119
ABSOLUTELY NOT
WTF??? They are selling out the stockmarket to Dubai???? (I know, old news…but still):
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/s…..57749.html
BigMitch @ 69
And you are wrong. I don’t remember model numbers anymore, but by the late 60s you could program the keyboard of a popular piece of IBM office equipment. Not just the equipment itself, the friggin’ keyboard.
I still have (and use for bookmarks) things in the shape of 80 column cards that are made from magnetic recording material. I took them home when the last of that equipment was finally replaced (with ’80s stuff that made the AP clerk miserable).
KestrelBrighteyes @ 118
I’m down in Athens,Ga but I know a great young lady who was raised there. Some folks I knew in Champign moved there many moons ago.
BigMitch @ 102
I haven’t accused anyone of anything. I quoted something from Haaretz. But since you brought up “moral planes” are you prepared to posit that it is right for only one Middle Eastern country to have nuclear weapons? And if so, on what “moral plane” do ground your thinking?
GordonM @ 126
Good! Glad to know they are venal liars but not as macchiavellian as I feared.
GordonM @ 126
What I want to know is why the same guy who wasn’t satisfied with *photographs* of Abu Ghraib did such a half-assed job of vetting the Killian memos.
BigMitch @ 76
Sure they have. Just not credibly.
BigMitch @ 109
Big Mitch, I personally harbor no ill will to Israel, or anyone,(’cept the Yanks)and, would look at the evidence before passing judgement! My BS filter is well honed, and, I will call a spade, a spade…!!! *g*
Extra innings in the bronx.
Not okay for any signatories to nuclear non-proliferation treaty to violate it. Get it?
GordonM @ 131
You are mistaken. I hope.
BigMitch @ 134
all I know is that the sox will still be in first tomorrow.
In Texas now, if you order a drink in a bar or restaurant, they are “demanding” (according to some new law), that you give them your drivers’ license, no matter how old you are.
lolo @ 116
No, that wasn’t it. It must have been a link off of something in my RSS reader, but I can’t find it (and I havent’ spent much time surfing today, ’cause I’m moving).
LS @ 136
i’m 61
last year i got carded at O’Hare
Jonathan @ 138
It “used” to be flattering!!! Now…hmmmmmm
I am confident that Rather will win this suit.
In the night, last night, the overnight reporters on the ABC desk called it the “discredited” Rather report.
I got up and fired off an e-mail to ABC telling them exactly what you said, Eli, that Rather was Swiftboated. That the attacks on MoveOn were a travesty after the Republican attacks on Max Cleland and Kerry who had both clearly served in VN and that GWB and his appointees, none of whom had served, were the LAST people anyone should listen to on manners military.
I have to say I also sent a complaint yesterday about their use of the word “obnoxious” in re: the tasered student at FSU, that his questions were not obnoxious, etc. I noticed the next time I saw them do the story that they referred to the questions as “persistent” not obnoxious.
Anyway, I think the tides are turning and Rather will be seen as truthful in the end.
BigMitch @ 76
According to Wikipedia, regarding Israel’s nuclear capability:
“Israel is widely believed to be one of four nuclear-armed countries not recognized as a Nuclear Weapons State by the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), the other three being India, Pakistan and North Korea.[5] The International Atomic Energy Agency Director General Mohamed ElBaradei regards Israel as a state possessing nuclear weapons.[6] In a December 2006 interview, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said Iran aspires “to have a nuclear weapon as America, France, Israel and Russia.”
Which I interpret that Israel has never said, “No, we don’t have them”, nor do they admit to having them. It’s all very ambiguous.
bg @ 140
They’ll settle just like they did with Imus.
Eli, a few years back I can remember bemoaning the complete absence of investigative journalism – in the mold of Woodward and Bernstein. Where’d all the hungry journalists go?
Thanks for stepping up to the plate.
BigMitch @ 134
C’mon. When a lesser gov’t official let his lips get loose (not that long ago), the first official response was “no”. But everybody laughed, so they stopped denying it.
Toby Wollin @ 141
Here’s what ain’t ambiguous, at this bullshit chest thumping by what’s his name from Iran. . .good luck.
raven at 142
not sure — don’t know, but not sure — rather’s in it for the money only
bg @ 140
I really hope you’re right. If he has to prove that this was a deliberate ratfuck rather than just monumental incompetence, he might have a difficult time.
Jonathan @ 146
That ain’t what he said on larry.
The typeface on the TANG memo is exactly the same as that found on other documents relating to Bush’s National Guard service. In other words, the famous talking point about Rather being too foolish to notice that his memo was created on a modern wordprocessor with a Times-Roman font is false. See:
http://www.dod.mil/pubs/foi/bush_records/
and especially note “Documents Released on September 24, 2004″ under “other documents”. The memo on page 6 of that pdf uses a proportional font identical to the Rather mem
1,605 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen BigMitch:
“There are some who like to accuse Israel of doin’ illegal things, when in fact they are not illegal.”
Ya better putcher steel pot and flak jacket on, brother Mitch, ‘cuz there’s incomin’ into yer perimeter!
First of all, “some people like to accuse Israel of doin’ illegal things when in fact they are legal”…now what would some of those illegal things be? Bombing another country’s nuclear facilities on the rational that no one has the right to have nuclear capability in Isreal’s neighborhood? Bombing a sovereign country like Syria and not even acknowledging the bombing. Subsidizing settlers to confiscate and occupy land that belongs to someone else and then marchin’ troops in to destroy the legally elected government of that occupied territory. Carrying out an invasion of a neighboring sovereign country (Jordan) to commit genocide against refugees pushed out of their homeland that was subsequently occupied by Israeli settlers. How about attacking a United States navel vessel in international waters, killing an number of US sailors and then denying that it ever happened.
BigMitch, you are becoming a parody of yourself and in the process you are aiding in the anti-semitic stereotyping that is increasing due to the tragic historical irony that is contemporary Israel.
KEEP THE FAITH AND LOOK AT THE TRUTH BEFORE YOU TRY AND DEFEND LIES!!
carolyn urban @ 143
Thank you, I’m very flattered. I, uh, assume you’re referring to 70s Woodward and not 00s Woodward…
Done for the evening; thanks for everyone being here.
Ghostman says:
September 21st, 2007 at 6:32 pm
“This whole sorry episode reeks of ratfuckery to me, with Viacom chairman and unabashed Bush supporter Sumner Redstone using Heyward as
Rather’s minder and eventual hitman
Anybody remember the Blogger who posted the whole typeface thing 10 minutes after the show aired? That’s when I knew the fix was in.
raven @ 142
Rather has an ego, but it’s professional, not monetary. I expect he’ll hang in there until he gets a public apology.
GordonM @ 154
I hope so.
NorskeFlamethrower @ 150
And, did you forget to mention Lebanon?
myers @ 153
Buckhead. Yes, the whole thing was remarkably fast and remarkably well-organized, and Buckhead was a conservative lawyer (and Powerline, or was it LGF, commenter), not any kind of document expert.
myers @ 153
who was the blogger?
BigMitch @ 91
You might want to read this from the Federation of Atomic Scientists. Israel got most its know how through the French.
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/nuke/
Eli:
Your habit of excellent reportage, provoking thoughtful response is wonderfully evident this evening. Rather delightful, altogether.
Thank you.
BigMitch @ 102
Well.
Moral plane != legal plane for all dimensions of planes.
I’m not taking a position on this, merely observing that your assertion is no more equivalent than the putative one you’re addressing…
klyde @ 101
And yet Americans actually believe they have a free press. I suppose there were some in the former Soviet Union that thought the same thing of Pravda and TASS. Sometimes you can fool all of the people.
raven @ 145
raven @ 145
What chestthumping?
David W. Bartoo @ 160
Thank *you*. This is probably the closest to actual reportage I’ve ever done.
Hugh @ 159
That’s a new wrinkle…
LOL. Yeah. It was a compliment, not a slap. Keep up the good work, badly needed.
Bluetoe @ 162
See my comment @ 40.
Eli @ 164
An excellent job!!!
Jonathan @ 107
It is *smiles*
I have a creek that flows right through my front yard, can hear it when I have my morning coffee on the front porch swing or when I sleep with the windows open at night. It’s all cattle and horse farms and fields and thick woods here. I’m an organic gardener, and I spend much more time with my dog and cats and birds than with humans. I can go weeks, especially in winter, without seeing anyone outside of family. I’ve watched redtail hawks take snakes and mice out of the field in front of my house, had wild turkey on the front porch eating the cat’s food, had deer sleeping in my back yard, eating off the apple tree (before a storm took it), and just laying still and watching when my son went out to feed the dog..and once when I was walking in the field that borders my land, stumbled upon two recently born fawns in the field – they were unafraid, one got up and walked right to me and stuck its nose in my hand. It brought tears to my eyes (and I was lucky enough to have had my camera with me at the time)
I am blessed *s*
Sorry for the OT, we’ll now return you to your regularly scheduled thread…
Rather’s attorneys, Sonnenschein Nath & Rosenthal is a first rate firm, and Martin Gold a superb lawyer. What we got here is a great reporter with a chip on his shoulder and subpoena power. I think this is going to be a lot of fun to watch. Hope CBS has something left in the liability reserve after the Imus settlement.
By the way, far as I can tell, they can subpoena and depose Bush and Cheney any time they want pursuant to Clinton v. Jones, 520 U.S. 681 (1997); Dan doesn’t need to wait until they leave office. “Who could have predicted” that the blowhard Republicans would rue the day they forced Bill Clinton to submit to a deposition in the ginned up fraudulent Paula Jones case? Heh heh. (this is a comment I previously posted at TNH)
raven @ 127
Let me know if you ever visit, maybe I can make a trip too.
My prayer tonight: Dear Mother Earth/Goddess: I’m still reeling from Gog and Magog…Gawd..please tell me “everything is gonna be alright”…..
I want the pre-raptured press corps to ask W about it. “Are we about to be raptured by U”?????? I want to be saved…really I do…from W. Thanks, Goddess. Me.
Kestrel at 169
Thanks much for the vivid picture.
Must be beautiful.
bmaz @ 170
Rather’s first book The Camera Never Blinks is really a interesting read. I read it many years ago – not sure it’s still in print but may be available used.
CTuttle @ 165 … That’s a new wrinkle…
________
The 4 words women dread most … *g*
Yes, Eli, despite my disagreeing with you in the comments a bit, this is an excellent post.
I’m just very buzzed over the popular reaction to the resolution censuring Moveon. I think we’re finally seeing a grassroots reaction in a language that even politicians can understand. They thought that money was theirs, just because they’re not Republicans. This is the dynamite we’ve been looking for. Money, well spent (on great ads) that sets the agenda.
Jonathan @ 138
Tennessee cards everyone now too.
But saliva and blood? Nuh uh.
Petrocelli @ 175
no that would be “we just bombed Iran”
may @ 158
like Eli says at 157. Buchead that was it.
Buckhead. Yes, the whole thing was remarkably fast and remarkably well-organized, and Buckhead was a conservative lawyer (and Powerline, or was it LGF, commenter), not any kind of document expert.
Petrocelli @ 175
Or, …is that a gray hair, I see?!!! *g*
Kestrel, I have three neighbors in my surrounding three miles and life in the woods is the only way to live, imo.. As Johnathon says, I found my exit.
Fortunately the turkeys have not discovered the cat food but the roadrunners have.
GordonM @ 176
Don’t get me wrong, I really do think the reaction is a wonderful thing, and I agree that it’s great to see MoveOn as a force. I’m just sickened by what cowardly shitheads our congressional representatives are.
Plus will they have to disavow any help (if any) MoveOn gives them now?
CTuttle @ 180
or “they cancelled the election?”
CTuttle @ 180
That’s 7 words, CT !!!
Men … rolling eyes … tee hee …
carolyn urban @ 183
Yeah, got that one in Florida in 2000…
I think many people are missing the beautiful significance of Rather’s lawsuit. A key issue in the suit will be the authenticity of the documents. What better fact witness to depose and examine on the authenticity, and veracity of information contained therein, of a person’s military records than the person himself? Bush. Under oath. And penalty of perjury. Can’t claim National security. Can’t claim he is too busy; when he spends most of his time on vacation, working out, sleeping and bicycling. Oh my. And, again, there is nothing stopping Rather from Issuing a subpoena to Bush to appear for this deposition now. the subpoena can be issued as soon as CBS files their answer to the complaint, which should be within 45 days.
The 4 words we all dread most:
Cheney has a plan.
carolyn urban @ 183
Now you’re giving me gray hairs …
carolyn urban @ 183
Sheer Fuckery right there! That’s not even funny… 8-(
bmaz @ 186
Oh absolutely. And what is the subject matter being authenticated? Ah yes.
It’s a beautiful thing.
James Moore ,over at Huffingtonpost, who also investigated the Bush departure from the military makes the point that the military still has the Bush file. If it was exculpatory, Cheerleader-in-Chief boy would release it. If Bush has nothing to hide, he should have it opened. Given all the revelations about Republicans in the past year or so, no telling what it might be. Maybe it is drinking or drugs but everybody already knows that about Bush.
bmaz @ 186
If they’re authentic, and Rather was fired over a lie, I want that to come out.
If they were fakes, I want to find out who forged them, who passed them, and why.
bmaz @ 186
this could be much fun
Petrocelli @ 188
Bar blond!
ChuckTaylor @ 191
That Moore piece is a goldmine.
Petrocelli @ 184
Fuzzy math…!!!
@ 165..IIRC Dimona was up and going by the late ’50’s. Early on they got “off the books” help and possibly nuclear material from Savannah River. The early Dimona reactor was said to be a near copy of the Savanna River reactor. (This is from reading many years ago..so it may be BS)
Somehow I got stuck in opera editing hell at 163. Washington accuses and threatens. Tehran reacts.
bmaz @ 186
Thank you bmaz for your insights, and thank you Eli for another great post !
Aging. Not for sissies.
As for Rather: I’d like to see him kick some ass. That was a set up, you could smell it a mile away. He was an unpredictable part of the media who needed to be silenced.
Glad he’s back.
Sounds like Dan Rather is EXTREMELY pissed, and I don’t blame him one bit.
So have his attorneys started the discovery process yet?
Any chance this story will headline in any MSM venue for awhile?
(Okay, stop laughing, I just asked)
I want to hear more about this “Andy Heyward” guy. Anyone want to take odds on how closely he’s tied to Rove?
CTuttle @ 196
Reminds me of the old joke (Snarkassandra’s not here, is she?) …
Anyway, the one that goes: Why are women so bad at math?
Answer: (Hold thumb and finger about three inches apart) Becasue men keep telling them THIS is SIX inches!!
CTuttle @ 196
… or Fuzzy Navel … *g*
FWIW I heard Ms. Mapes speak at Seattle’s City Club a couple of years ago. She was very believable about the frame up.
Eli @ 182
Selise figured out they were cowardly shitheads before I did!
No, if the money keeps flowing, they’ll be Moveon’s bitches instead of the Rethugs bitches. But Howie will need some helpers and some lie-detectors, if we’re to find the real thing.
Ok, about to be epu’d as usual, just have to thank Punaise for the Airplane clip — haven’t heard “Lather” in years.
And did you read the comments – someone asked why Grace Slick was “painted brown?” Someone else had to explain that it was “a tan”, result of the then-popular practice of “lying out in the sun.” LOL, ROFL.
Now, back to being serious and reading the comments.
Hugh @ 187
Dub those words over this Aerosmith song..
carolyn urban @ 200
Not that I’m psychic or anything, but I thought the document was real and the cover- up was a fabrication …
LS @ 194
Hmmmm ?!!
bmaz @ 186
Bmaz, I can’t cite the statute, but, Bush is exempt until he leaves office to be subpoenaed for a Civil Suit! Sorry to rain on the parade…!!!
mui @ 198
W is my dadddie…he’s makin’ me saaaafer…shizzola, he’s gonna get us all keeelllleed. I’ll be raptuuuured..Whoopee!!!
Kestrel @ 169:
Beautiful prose, delightfully delicate touch,
quite superb! More, please.
Petrocelli @ 208
What made me suspicious was how fucking quick Rather went down. I mean, we’re talking ejected at 100mph. Fishy as hell.
I am so not comfortable with W driving this starship.
CTuttle @ 210
Wasn’t Paula Jones a civil suit?
BigMitch @ 102
Wouldn’t want to do that. Iran has a far better record on civil rights and such.
Hugh @ 215
Special Prosecutor ring a bell? Outside of that they’re exempt!!!
KestrelBrighteyes @ 201
I tried to find something on him on Google, but I couldn’t get anything more than CBS Official Biography type stuff. I’m not even sure where he ended up after resigning from CBS in late 2005. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was a right-wing think tank or something.
On the other hand, he might have just been Redstone’s errand boy. That might even be why he quit – maybe he had some vestigial conscience. Which would be great if it makes him feel all… talkative.
Is Iran holding people in what amounts to a walled off ghetto? If not, they are clearly not on the same moral plane.
bmaz @ 186
Yeah, but he can lie. Not as well as Cheney, but…
bmaz @ 186
Oh, Bmaz, you have got it so right. Love your other post, pointing out the effects of Jones v Clinton. After all, the Supremes made it clear that a mere lawsuit AGAINST the president shouldnt take up too much of his time…let alone one where the Prez is just a witness.
Heeheehee! This could be a lot of fun. I take back anything bad I’ve ever said about Rather.
(And I still think I remember Times Roman on my Selectric typewriter ball in the ’70’s. Guess I wouldn’t swear an oath on it, tho’.)
KestrelBrighteyes @ 169
waaah!half your luck!
GordonM @ 205
newscientist 15 september 2007
page 54
Wizard of Deception–article on
ways of recognising deception and other signs of ill-intent.
Paul Ekman
LS @ 214
Be sure and scream into your Surrealistic Pillow.
peanutbutter @ 213
I think Rather has concrete evidence that he was “squashed”, but I’m not sure at all that he has evidence that W was AWOL, although, since that is the underlying premise…I hope the hell he does.
Petrocelli @ 100
I’m sure I’m in the netherlands here, but I totally agree. You want free speech? Gag on it!
CTuttle @ 210
Eureka Springs @ 223
you can see my face print in mine.
Jonathan @ 193
There are two theories on the docs: 1) They are actually genuine in spite of all the noise to the contrary. Turns out this was the conclusion reached by CBS’s ex-FBI investigator that was working under Dick Thornburg in the big investigation; but that evidence was concealed and never included in the report. 2) That the docs were a plant engineered by Karl Rove and some associates. Rather has some evidence of links between Rove and the document chain.
The two theories are semi-inconsistent; it is possible both are true, but unlikely. For this reason, Rather will want to depose Rove very early on also. Cheney too. And Rumsfeld and General Richard Myers were integrally involved in convincing CBS to hammer Rather; so they will have to be deposed.
This is a cornocopia of fun.
tejanarusa @ 226
Positive! Remember it was Ken Starr who pleaded with the supremes, and, it was a very narrow decision, kinda like the Gore v. Bush, applicable this one time only…!!!
bmaz @ 228
I think your source for #1 is the one I read. Do you have a link?
CTuttle @ 210
No rain. See: Clinton v. Jones, 520 U.S. 681 (1997)
bmaz @ 186
bmaz,
Will CBS dish out a big whoppin $70 million to shut Rather up for boosh? Thank you for your constant input day after day, here and tnh.
lolo
Elliott @ 227
I’m sure my screams have been bouncing about in the ether…
bmaz @ 231
Yeah. I’m out of my depth here, but I seem to recall it all hinged on the offense taking place before Clinton became President.
Eli,
Thanks for laying this out so clearly. Rather clearly got screwed. CBS deserves the beating that it has taken since then. I hope this lawsuit will help revive Rather’s reputation.
Bob in HI
From wiki:
GordonM @ 230
Info here.
http://thenexthurrah.typepad.c…..etail.html
bobschacht @ 235
And destroy Redstone’s.
Eli @ 238
small pleasures *g*
Eli @ 44
Eli, bless you for your musings one and all.
This backlash at Moveon is a HUGE public OUTING of all that’s putrid about the Beltway.
It’s all serving a HUGE purpose to get progressives to an end goal.
It’s a huge step forward, and the boots and steps are getting bigger every time Teh Belt’s Lose The Way Of We The People.
This was a HUGE outing.
Teh Beltway now got NO WHERE TO RUN TO, AND NOWHERE TO HIDE.
So Said Martha & The Vandella’s!!
. . ;-)
Very interesting post Eli. I too always thought Rather went down awfully quick for a newsman of his stature. The bits and peices fit together quite nicely.
So much for that whole “liberal media” BS. Is there anyone with more than 2 functioning braincells that still buys that tired line?
BigMitch @ 102
How many Iranians are living in Israel?
Okay I need to log off here and get ready to drive into town to pick up the kid. I’m almost looking forward to him getting his driver’s license – notice I said “ALMOST”.
Jonathan @ 173
David W. Bartoo @ 212
Well thank y’all! I don’t want to go way off-topic here, but you (any of y’all) are welcome to visit my politics and religion chatroom at http://www.dockwave.com. You’re more likely to find me there during the week, feel free to say hello.
Be warned – quite often there be trolls of the ignorant neocon variety.
Eli @ 218
Ooooh, I’ve got tingles! Let’s hope for the best, shall we?
Goodnight y’all.
Redstone put the fix in.
In the meantime as reported on NPR, Several thousand square miles of ice have melted off the polar ice cap in the past year. The amount of lost ice is equal in size to California and Texas. The expert said it was the beginning of a death spiral.
What are the leaders of the first world nations concerned about? The oil and minerals that can accessed and extracted from the polar region and the rights to them. The world is a f**king insane asylum.
lolo @ 232
lolo – I don’t think there is a chance in hell that Rather will agree to settle before he has taken every deposition of everyone he wants to. He has already stated that he is ready to take it to trial. He does not have to settle, no matter how much money they offer him.
bmaz @ 237
teeheehee told you Gordon!
hackworth @ 241
Of course it is. This surprises you?
GordonM @ 234
SCOTUS ruled in Nixon v. Fitzgerald (1982) the the President has absolute immunity from civil lawsuits over actions taken in his official capacity. In Clinton v. Jones the court ruled the the President didn’t have any special privilege to be free from civil suits. The Jones affair was not an official capacity.
The President has no immunity to criminal indictment.
IANAL
I remember thinking the same as Peanutbutter @ 213: that Rather went down rather quickly.
This in contrast to Bush’s staying power in the wake of revelations of Bush’s own reliance on inauthentic documents “proving” a sale of Niger yellowcake to Saddam’s Iraq.
Amb Wilson called Bush out on it, and we the blogosphere have shown if not proved that Bush knew or should have known these casus belli documents were forgeries–yet, Bush’s reign on the TV continues. His show has not been cancelled. Yet.
Mr. Rather should not have apologized for doing his job. Nevertheless, bmaz’s comment that Rather now has subpoena power over Bush may be a reasonable compensation in the long term to offset the horrible short term damage to his reputation that CBS enabled with its betrayal to principles of journalistic independence. Looking forward to the Dan Rather Showdown.
bmaz @ 242
I hope he doesn’t settle till hell freezes over. His reputation was sullied, and he is at a point in his life where he can do what ever he wants, when he wants to. My burgeoning paranoia makes me want to tell him to watch his back, though.
GordonM @ 234
There is an argument to be made there; but only slightly. That really involved the fact that Clinton was the one being sued. Bush is just a witness. I think he is subject to being deposed.
I hope so. I can’t wait! Off to watch Bill be back later for late nite.
bmaz @ 248
Rather can bend over backwards to be accommodating, sending nessisary transcribers to wherever needed. A depo can be done anywhere, right?
bmaz @ 248
Well, trust a lawyer to say that!
“I think he is subject to being deposed”
gosh, I wish that meant something other that what I understand that to mean- the usual being, asked to give testimony or respond to lawyer questions.
Eli, do you think this Rather business will go down in history as part of the republican conspiracy to win the 2004 election?
lol, Valley Girl @254.
All in good time.
madmommy @ 250
Wh, yes. Yes it can. The Federal Rules are very accommodating to having the deposition sited wherever necessary to get the deponent under oath and on the record.
pdaly @ 253
I’m guessing you transposed the numbers, but that’s a gorgeous bit of timing there ;-)
Valley Girl @ 254
There’s deposed, and DEPOSED, I suppose . . .
Both meanings are good, but I prefer the one that says he gets permanently removed from of the room with no corners.
carolyn urban @ 259
Would love to see the Republican party indicted under RICO.
Well a girl can dream?
peanutbutter @ 258
well, looks okay to me
carolyn urban @ 259
Excellent correction.
Valley Girl @ 262
At the time you commented, you were comment #253. 254 doesn’t yet exist.
Peterr @ 257
sweet dreamin’, Peterr
?
Yeah, we sure can. Kind of pitiful when your dreams are filled with War Crime Tribunals, International Court at the Hague, Impeachment, Imprisonment and the like.
Bill Maher’s opening tonite:
On Patraeus: The Senate voted on the Batrayus ad and then braided each others hair and ate oreo cookies.
The 11% approval for Democrats sent a chill where their spine’s used to be.
The Iranian guy cannot lay a wreath at 911 because that would be a political statement. And that’s Rudy’s job.
When bloggers reach orgasm they yell out OMG OMG.
Bush isn’t afraid of horses….it’s just that back in college one beat him in a debate.
OK, I stand corrected for private actions, but, Official Acts are taboo…
“The court explained that the President, like other officials, is subject to the same laws that apply to all citizens, that no case had been found in which an official was granted immunity from suit for his unofficial acts, and that the rationale for official immunity is inapposite where only personal, private conduct by a President is at issue.”
Loo Hoo. @ 252
I guess it depends on the outcome. If this was a premeditated ratfuck, absolutely. If this was an emergency scramble aided and abetted by CBS, then it’s just another dirty trick to silence and discredit a critic and his inconvenient narrative.
bmaz @ 257
Yes, I learned that from a John Grisham novel :0)
bmaz @ 228
The first theory cannot be correct– the documents as Rather had them were frauds not in content but in format (the evidence of the typefaces, etc.) The contents of the documents, and the document forms, however, were factual.
I look forward to a trial opening up this whole can of worms. It would be great to see the real truth about Bush’s TANG disservice laid out in all its self-indulgent glory.
However, the tale does illustrate an important Rovian insight: The Executive can move swiftly, but Congress and the Courts move slowly. Even if all of Rather’s accusations turn out to be factually correct, and Bush is revealed as having been AWOL, it is too late. Based on suppression of evidence and obstruction of Justice, Bush has been able to serve two terms as President, f**king up our country to a scandalous degree, steering billions of dollars to his friends, and putting a financial squeeze on millions of poor and middle class Americans, starting an unjustified war of choice that has cost thousands of American lives and tens of thousands of Iraqi lives, and resulting in the maiming and traumatizing of thousands of American servicepersonnel, for which he should spend the rest of his life in hard labor, but its still too late to undo the damage.
Bob in HI
ccmask @ 264
This is hilarious – thanks
Eli, ’strue I’ve become completely cynical, but I’m convinced everything that has gone on since 2000 has been a premeditated ratfuck.
Your welcome Twain. Good evening all.
Peanutbutter,
Yes, I saw and responded to VallyGirl’s “deposed” post.
I had refreshed the screen just before that.
MoveitOn upstairs
bobschacht @ 271
I don’t think there’s any way this would get Dubya removed from office, even if the whole thing were magically wrapped up tomorrow.
But maybe it’ll keep his smirking face off of the $20 bill 30-40 years from now…
carolyn urban @ 273
Bush holds all their FCC licenses in his vault. Just in case they slip.
bobschacht @ 271
It may be too late to remove Bush from office before 2009, but if this all pans out and comes to light as a huge Rovian mess . . . the backlash will be a poltical tsunami. It won’t undo the past, but it will make the future of the Republican party unrecognizable.
carolyn urban @ 273
The fact that Heyward was the one who vetted the memos seems highly suspect to me, and is actually the reason I think it’s more likely that the memos were deliberate forgeries. But with accurate content to make it less obvious.
Does this mean that Bush is still eligible to serve? And will he be sent against his will?
CTuttle @ 265
No worries mate. I have been doing this a while. Rather has absolutely killer lawyers and they have gamed this out very well prior to filing the suit. They have done a ton of legwork already and have been getting statements and locking down as much evidence as they can ahead of time. They are loaded for bear. I am not saying they will win; only fools do that, but they are ready to rock and roll.
Peterr @ 279
It depends on the scope. If it can be palmed off as a low-level rogue operative, it will be contained.
Now, if someone blew the lid off of electoral cheating that year…
lolo @ 246
No, I saw a post that went into a lot more depth than TNH. And it baffles me, because I haven’t spent much time on the web today.
bobschacht @ 271
Bob – Not so fast. The typeface on the TANG memo is exactly the same as that found on other documents relating to Bush’s National Guard service. In other words, the famous talking point about Rather being too foolish to notice that his memo was created on a modern wordprocessor with a Times-Roman font is false. See:
http://www.dod.mil/pubs/foi/bush_records/
and especially note “Documents Released on September 24, 2004″ under “other documents”. The memo on page 6 of that pdf uses a proportional font identical to the Rather memo.
GordonM @ 284
There are two different threads at TNH
Oklahoma kiddo @ 82
Heh, I smell the stench of Abramoff! *G*
why didn’t dan make this stand sooner rather than right now??? same with greenspan…they speak after the fact…they both have more money than god and speaking out at the time would’ve been more effective imo
Marshall @ 94
I posted a comment yesterday saying the same thing, except I said Rather should have sued for $600 million.
ChuckTaylor @ 191
I believe there are at least three aspects to the Bush TANG story, each one of which has a possible paper trail.
One concerns the fact that he jumped the line in order to get into the TANG.
Two, the very likelihood that he was grounded before completing his training (probably due to drugs or alcohol).
Three, that he went AWOL for nearly a year.
bobschacht @ 271
No Bob. In 1969 IBM office equipment was absolutely capable of producing those docs.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 98
This would likely go hand in hand with the increase of the drug smuggling issues posted above a few comments . . .
Can you say that?
Iran/Contra?
Deju vu, all over again, Yogi.
The Abramoff intestigations, and Mr. K are at the core of it all . . . . guns, drugs, oil, and profits and pressures . . .
What a piece of fiction someone is gonna write about it all . . . oh, it’s real. ;-)
Steve-AR @ 197
Some nuclear material went missing from Pennsylvania when Milton Shapp was governor early 1970s.
dreamcatcher @ 289
I think 1 and 3 are pretty well documented, but 2 has only been inferred to this point. Would love to see that one proved.
juslin @ 288
I know it seems like a long time, but it takes time to gather evidence, get your ducks in a row, and most of all, to decide that it is worth putting up with all the ruckus a major, high-profile lawsuit will bring to your life as a plaintiff. It’s not really that long in legal time-terms. *g*
Elliott @ 124
It looks like this was a test to see how far they coud go, before anyone showed they knew their rights and insisted on exercising them.
Eli – He had completed his initial training, but was unable to become certified on other aircraft that he was supposed to because he was indeed grounded. Bush was mandatorily grounded because he refused to submit for the required yearly flight physical pilots must complete. there was nothing physically wrong with him; the only credible reason to date is that he could not pass the drug test that was part of the physical. That is speculation, but the only good explanation so far. But he was absolutely grounded. This should have been prosecuted as dereliction of duty if you ask me….
bmaz @ 296
Right; it’s inferred but not documented.
The person that I would like to know more about?
Buckhead.
Now he’s a lawyer so he won’t be easy to trip up, and he’s smart, he knows fonts and stuff so you might not learn anything from him, but I’d like to know.
Who tipped Buckhead off?
It won’t be Karl. Rove will be at least two steps removed. But moving backwards from Buckhead will reveal who contacted him, then go to that person and see what THEIR motives were. So for example it could be a Redstone plant with in CBS. It doesn’t have to be a White House connection. Just someone who wants to mess up this story so that Rather will be hurt instead of the President. An Andrew Heyward underling could easily tip off an old buddy, like deep throat. “Follow the kearning”.
That info would be VERY interesting.
But the second you mention anything like this, lots of people (including liberals) will say, “tin foil hat time!” when I hear this I always like to point out, “What about Enron? We now know that companies did act together to plunder the energy markets. So please don’t tell me that people wouldn’t act together to try and keep Bush in power; whether or not they were specifically coordinating.”
Technically a conspiracy is a bit different from people acting together to reach the same goals without necessarily coordinating.
You have a right wing noise machine consisting of blogs, Drudge, and the money losing Washington Times that will push these stories.
When they get to corporate news organizations, there is a “buzz” so that they just HAVE to cover it. Now is that all a conspiracy? No, but it acts like one in some ways.
I’m interested in this lawsuit.
BigMitch @ 109
Lesse, their masses suffer from the same types of right wing, fundamentalist, 1% ownership, Military Industrial Complex, and domination of the masses leadership as USA does.
In fact, those components of Isreal The State are heavy hitters within OUR own facist like and similar despots.
Other than that, what are you talking about?
mui @ 111
I was please to see that email myself, today. *G*
bmaz @ 296
Eli @ 297
It is documented that his flight status was revoked; it is mandatory without a physical. I am sure I saw a document evidencing this. I will go look…..
bmaz @ 301
I’m not disputing that. I’m saying that we’re *inferring* that a failed drug test was the reason. We do not have a document saying Lt. Bush failed a drug test.
Eli – Here is WaPo article discussing the documentation on revocation of flight status.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..4Sep8.html
LS @ 136
Why?
Eli @ 301
Oh. My bad. Yeah, there is none of that. I think there was no drug test because he never submitted to the physical. to my knowledge there were no drug tests involved, he just didn’t take any. If there were, they have done a real good job at burying it. Really though, when would he have taken a drug test since the only time he was around after that was for free dental care?
bmaz @ 305
No argument here. It’s a great big unexplained hole that smells like Dodgy.
I’m a veteran with fifteen years service active duty, reserves, and even the national guard.
George W. Bush got out of Vietnam because of his daddy.
My cousin Jerry might be alive today if the Boy Decider had been grown up enough to serve his tour like other people.
At this point I have nothing but contempt for Republicans.
GordonM @ 290
What’s your source on that, please?
Bob in HI
bmaz @ 285
Thanks for the link and evidence. At the time, I was trying to follow the back story as closely as I was then capable of. The lack of push-back from CBS was quite surprising.
What is so mystifying is why that evidence was suppressed for so long. It makes the conspiracy against Rather at CBS even more stark.
It also makes Rather’s lawsuits, and the prospect of public trials that might draw this evidence out in court, a delightful prospect.
Bob in HI
Bob- I left you some info at 285 above; although not on the IBM. There are several comments upthread on this by both Gordon M and others. I have seen the info on the IBM indeed being able to do this back then, but can’t remember where. this doesn’t prove they were not forgeries, but it clearly establishes that they are not definitively forgeries. Don’t know if you have read much on this yet, but Rather has apparently discovered that CBS’s own investigator, working under Dick Thornburg, concluded the TANG documents were actually genuine; but CBS and Thornburg omitted this info from their report and concealed if.
The brightest spot in this entire lawsuit is that it may bring the entire story back into the media spotlight. Sure, CBS won’t touch it, but the others might in order to embarrass CBS, and no one is trying to shield Bush any longer. You know if this turns out to be newsworthy, KO will pick it up.
Maybe Katie Couric should link to this story. It could mark her big break with CBS. What’s she got to lose?
pdaly @ 312
Probably keeping her perky littly yap shut about it was part of the deal that got her her job.
Rather made the same mistake MoveON made with the Betrayus ad. Neither trusted their audience to reach the right conclusion based on the facts. According to the colonel’s secretary who said she didn’t type the notes, the facts they contained were accurate. The colonel toyed with the idea of bringing Bush up on charges, but he didn’t. She also said the colonel sometimes typed notes to the file himself and this could be one instance, but she wasn’t sure.
Rather’s mistake was to vouch for documents he could not authenticate. MoveOn did a similar thing. It name called when there were more than ample facts to challenge Petraeus without the name calling. Petraeus has long been a shill for an administration that rids itself of critics like the General who said before the war started that we’d need seven hundred thousand troops. The facts were enough. We didn’t need name calling.
Contrast this with Bill O’Reilly the other day on the radio. He couldn’t understand Hillary’s and Obama’s refusal to censure MoveOn. That seemed downright unpatriotic to him. He made it clear it was his opinion and he was acting more in sorrow than in anger. Crocodile tears, sure. But it was effective and there was no reason to put our people in that position.
Dear Firedoglake,
Why is your site designed so painfully inefficient that the reader needs to go through the prior page again when reading a story. It works, page one flows to page two, page two flows to page three….
raven @ 145
Israel and the right wing radicals have been “chest thumping” for years in regard to Iran. Ariel Sharon (before he was in a coma), Micheal Ledeen, Bolton, Bill Kristol, Cheney etc have all been repeating unsubstantiated claims about Iran for years now.
Juan Cole has interpreted what the Iranian President Ahminijad actually said about Israel and you can read his interpretation at his website “Informed Comment”
He did not say that “Israel should be wiped off the map”. This is the neo-cons cherry picking and misrepresenting again.
Bush will never see a court room. Why do you think they {he] stacked the courts. It wasn’t for abortion! He and Darth are covered. They have screwed the system so completely, the Dems are starting to go along with them. Waxman could use some help, but who is it? They will start their war, declare martial law, and stay until Jeb can take over. Remember this next Nov.
“Bush will never see a court room.”
That is one fate we all will face, even if it is not on this mortal plane.
Who knows, in Texas there may be a law against fake cowboys…