[FDL is pleased to welcome former Sen. Gary Hart to chat with us today. As always, please be polite and stay on topic. Any off-topic comments should be taken to the prior thread. With that, please give a big welcome to Sen. Hart. -- CHS]
Having run the gamut from long-time Senator from a western state to Presidential candidate to national security expert and policymaker to a professorship at the University of Colorado, former Sen. Gary Hart brings to the discussion table a wealth of real world experience. This is knowledge hard earned from watching mistakes and negotiations through years of service to the United States in a domestic and foreign policy context.
After yesterday’s votes, I was fairly disheartened at the failure to overcome cloture votes and at the continued political divide. In preparation for today’s discussion, I again picked up a copy of Sen. Hart’s The Courage Of Our Convictions, and wanted to share this passage — which gets to the heart of what we need, and what we don’t seem to have at the moment.
Had our government been less arrogant and more concerned with maintaining our traditional alliances, it might have listened to the doubts and questions being raised much more seriously and insightfully from foreign democratic capitals than from the cautious “opposition” Democratic Party in the United States….
Democratic insistence, supported by a less acquiescent press, in asking the “what if” question might possibly have forced an arrogant administration to address the potential of long-term occupation, a possibility assiduously resisted by the Bush neoconservatives….
For if even a remote possibility of resistance, insurgency, and long-term occupation were to be admitted, that would have changed everything. Attention and resources would have to be redirected from the genuine war on terrorism in Afghanistan; the cost to the taxpayer would not only soar, it would be virtually limitless; we could well see thousands of Americans dead and tens of thousands wounded; we might embitter the very people we came to democratize; we might further destablize an already unstable Middle East region and wider Arab world; we might drive an even deeper wedge between ourselves and the international community. Given these disastrous possibilities, better to assume the best, operate from a blissful assumption, and thus not contemplate, let alone discuss with the American people, less-than-rosy scenarios….
Now that this very nightmare scenario has come to pass, and we now confront all these extremely ugly realities, the American people rightly ask, “Why weren’t we told that even the slightest possibility existed that we would end up assuming the British imperial role of a half-century before?” “Why was this possibility not considered and planned for?” “Why was it not openly and honestly discussed?” “Were our super-confident leaders so swept up in the arrogance of power that they could entertain no doubt of their ability to dictate terms and dominate Iraqi behavior?” Most of all, “Where was the opposition party, the Democrats on whom the nation depended to ask the difficult and penetrating questions?” Where indeed….
…The truth is, we’ve lost the course. We have kicked open a hornets’ nest with consequences yet to be felt in America. We’ve weakened ourselves at home and in the world. We are less secure today than before this war began.
Who now has the courage to say this?
Sen. Hart goes on to discuss the core values of the Democratic party, or at least what those values have been over the last few decades, and advocates a return to the principles on which the party has successfully advocated for the little guy, for American values, and for a return to honor and away from hypocrisy in our domestic and foreign policies.
Things like a return to advocacy for the rule of law rather than for increasing the power of a unilateral chief executive and a submissive Congress. Or a return to principles of fundamental fairness, equity and integrity. Returning the Democratic Party to that of FDR, of JFK, of all the leaders of the past who challenged us to reach higher and farther and to lift up those below so that they might also reach for the heavens.
In his most recent book, The Shield and the Cloak, Sen. Hart cuts through the spin to the heart of what we must do to secure our nation and the world for generations to come:
Clearly, rooting out terrorist cells and networks is a challenge for security forces, but even those most often are special branches of police forces and intelligence services rather than large-scale military combat forces. This, the most clear and present danger to U.S. national security, requires intense information sharing, international collaboration of a high order, and collective political will.
The hard part is not in knowing what must be done and how to do it; the hard part is generating the political will to do what must be done.
With that, I want to welcome Sen. Hart, and to open the floor to questions and discussion about how we can all help to move our nation and our government forward in a more productive, more honest way, how to deal with the political and media spin, and how to cut through the heart of the issues we must face together.
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Zed & Welcome Gary Hart!
Welcome Senator
Welcome, Gary Hart!
Gary Hart online
Welcome Senator Hart. It is a great privilege to have you join us today.
Welcome, Gary Hart!
Welcome, Sen. Hart. So happy to have you hear today to talk with us. I wanted to start with a question about where we go from here. We know that Iraq is a mess, and that American security is seriously threatened by continued missteps there and elsewhere. But after watching the wrangling the last few days in the Senate, I have to say that I’m disheartened. How do we break this awful stalemate? Any ideas would be much appreciated.
welcome to FDL Senator Hart. thanks for joining us today.
Senator:
Do you think the proposed Senate resolution against the MoveOn.org ad is calling for a vote against the First Amendment of the US Constitution?
Welcome, Senator Hart, and what do you think we can and should do to get our Democratic Senators and Reps to take action?
Welcome Senator Hart.
How much different do you think the world would be today if we had elected President McGovern in 1972? (in my wildest fantasies)
Also, I’d love your thoughts on how the media impacts the Presidential races. Paul Krugman had a fantastic note on the superficiality of media political coverage today — on social commentary versus substantive coverage — and I would love your thoughts on what he says.
Greetings, Sen. Hart,
1. How do you feel about exclusion of Rep. Kucinich from some upcoming forums (fora) in early primary states?
2. Are you going to be actively supporting some really progressive Democratic candidates in the 2008 elections?
3. Have you read or do you intend to read Profs. Walt and Mearsheimer’s recent book?
Welcome Senator Hart.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 7
When the American people let their elected representatives know how strongly they feel about this, especially those representing the final decisive votes in Congress, a consensus end-the-war decision will be reached. Given Senate rules, Republicans must decide to end the war. It must be constantly repeated: 51 votes in the Senate is not enough.
Any thoughts on why even in the majority the Democratic Party has failed to mount any serious opposition to Bush and the Republicans’ policies from FISA to Iraq? And what they might do to begin to do so?
Welcome, Senator. I feel honored to be in your presence. Every time I see you on TV, I say to myself, “there’s a guy who should be president.”
Senator Hart: The consequences of history — It is too bad you lost your bid for the presidency. Over the years, your analysis and comments have gone straight to the subject core with concise, cogent truths. We have lost our way. The hollow military is here, now. Our future, at least militarily, is bankrupt. Morris Berman’s book, Dark Ages America reflects many of your thoughts as to where America is today. Please bring your voice to the upcoming election. We’ve never needed clarity more than now.
Biodun @ 9
This is simply politics–Republicans trying to capitalize with their “base”–on an ad they say is anti-military. I do believe it is important to distinguish the military, including commanding generals, from the White House.
Welcome, Senator Hart. Thanks for being here today.
BigMitch @ 17
You are very kind. Many thanks.
Senator Hart…is there any way you would consider running for President again?
Please?
Could you please briefly explain why this is so?
Were these same rules in effect when the Repubs were in the majority? I seem to recall a few Republican judicial appointments making it through on fewer than 60 votes.
How can the Democrats be more effective in making clear that it’s Republican blocking and not Democratic ineffectiveness that’s the problem?
And BTW, why don’t the Democrats make the Republicans actually filibuster, rather than caving as soon as someone says “you don’t have the votes to cut off debate”?
Hugh @ 16
It seems to me that a fair number of elected Democrats, including Sen. Kennedy, Speaker Pelosi, Majority Leader Reid, and others have been very outspoken, and have tried to take legislative action against Bush policies and practices. A particular hero in this is Congressman Henry Waxman who is methodically trying to bring the Bush administration to account on a number of fronts. But everything goes through the Great Media Filter.
Mauimom @ 23
Senate rules, once again, permit unlimited debate. To end debate “cloture” (close debate) must be invoked. It takes 60 votes to invoke cloture. Democrats do not have 60 votes. Republicans solidly lined up behind every Bush initiative for 6 years and got some conservative Democrats (aka Sen. Lieberman, etc) to support them, especially on the war. The Republican party is a party of enforced discipline. The Democratic party is not.
Sorry Christy. Hello Gary Hart. I posted on the wrong thread. Forgive me.
I have been reading about the effect of lowering the interest rate on China and Venezuela, just two countries which hold lots of debt dollars.
Venezuela is already starting to dump dollars. China is not happy about having our debt to them revalued downward. What do you think about this? How will it affect us here in the US?
Sen Hart, do you have any ideas on how to break our current Dem leadership away from the insular beltway groupthink?
Mr. Hart said:
This is simply politics–Republicans trying to capitalize with their “base”–on an ad they say is anti-military. I do believe it is important to distinguish the military, including commanding generals, from the White House.
With all due respect, I believe that it was Dubya whom had blurred the lines. Do you not feel that the ad represents an important free speech issue in a time of increasingly diminishing American civil liberties?
I understand that you are a graduate of the seminary. So, I assume you know the dilemma of the minister who wants to increase attendence at his Sunday services. If he gives a series of sermons on the importance of attending services, he only gets to speak to the people who have already decided to attend. On Easter, he gives a welcoming message, and nobody is rebuked for only attending once a year. All of which brings me to the problem of blogging that
How can we overcome MSM (mainstream media) complicity in keeping the populace at large ignorant and complacent?
Gary Hart @ 25
You are right. The Democratic leadership should make Republicans filibuster, if nothing else to require Senators like Snow and Collins state whether they actually support tying up the Senate or not. But it does lead to the additional charge that “Democrats can’t seem to get anything done”, etc.
Then make them debate. Endlessly. Don’t move on to the next subject.
And then the Democrats can point to the Republicans and say that they’re so wedded to not letting anything through that they’re pulling these procedural stunts.
Clearly our comments crossed in the “mail.”
What are your thoughts on overcoming the cynical GOP position of pandering to their 29% base until after their primaries next June? I have heard that this is the Moderate GOP’s strategy. Too Bad several hundred more young Americans have to die in Iraq because the GOP has to cater to their out of touch base. Wow.
Gary Hart @19
First I wish to thank you for being here and speaking with us. @19 you state that this is an attempt to make criticism of the military anti-military.
My question: Is this the beginning of outlawing peace activists groups who are anti-military? Some have a very long history and will continue to be vocal and demonstrate. What do you suppose will be the consequences for people who oppose the military? I for one am one of those people and will commit civil disobedience rather than go against my conscience.
hackworth @ 28
Of course any individual or group should be free to say or write anything (not libelous) they wish. But as someone who has worked very hard for 30 years to get the Democrats back into the “security” business in a responsible way, ads like this are simply used by the right to convinced undecided, independent voters that Democrats are anti-military. Petraeus takes orders just like every soldier. On Huffington Post, before his testimony I urged him to state that he has advised the president to withdraw from Iraq and will resign if his advice is not accepted.
Welcome and glad to have you here Senator.
Can you comment on the economic mismanagement (fiscal and trade deficits, panicky cutting of interest rates)? It looks today like the world is repudiating the dollar, with the Canadian dollar at parity and the Euro at $1.41. In the last two days, the Saudis also renounced the dollar peg.
How do we restore an economic policy that keeps us strong enough to do the things you advocate in national security? What does it take for people to see that economic security is part of the national security equation?
By the way I was an envelope stuffer for McGovern in New Hampshire in 1972 and I never forgot the inspiring speech you gave us one of those cold winter mornings.
Sen. Hart, with the work you have done on national security, and with the Commission on National Security Policy for the 21st Century, in particular, you’ve had a fantastic window into the big picture of where our nation is — and where it ought to be — in terms of national security policy. What are the top things we ought to be doing? And, more importantly, why aren’t we doing them already?
IrishJim @ 33
Couldn’t agree more. It is stunningly cynical.
Welcome Senator Hart! Lived in Colorado for 14 years, still have some land up near Lake George. Two daughters (one at Univ of Colo) living in those beautiful mountains.
Will Colorado flip in the 2008 election?
Christy Hardin Smith @ 37
As an author, I’m tempted to say read The Fourth Power, The Shield & The Cloak, and the forthcoming Under the Eagle’s Wing. All answer your question in considerable detail.
In brief, redefine security to include energy, environment, livelihood, and other values. And create a global commons where security is internationalized.
Gary Hart @ 31
It’s very disappointing. The Republicans had the gang of 14 to break up a Democrat filibuster pre-2006. It just seems like a double standard for the Republicans plus Senator Lieberman to be able to obstruct Webb’s amendment, the reinstatement of habeas corpus, etc.
Welcome, Senator Hart! I am very concerned, in addition to all the domestic abuse of the constitution and our international treaties, about the fact that Bush is doing so much saber rattling regarding Iran. It appears to me as if he is trying to start a regional war in the Middle East. Yet we know that our armed forces are stretched to the breaking point, that we cannot even control events and violence in Iraq (which is one-third the size of Iran), and that Pakistan is already at the boiling point and might blow up if all of its neighbors were at war. What is your take on all this and what, if anything, can be done to avoid it? Do you think impeachment is a good idea, if only to keep the administration off center so it can’t keep up this crap? Or do you think it would push them into going whole hog with Iran as a protective measure (the people will not impeach a president in the middle of newly minted war, blah, blah, blah>)
Hello, Senator Hart! I’m with the “make them really filibuster” for days or weeks, crowd. It would begin to look pretty silly and the onus would land on the blockers.
Kathleen @ 39
Colorado is already “flipping”. We have a Democratic governor and both state houses and hope to elect another Democrat, Mark Udall, to the Senate. Colorado will once again lead the way.
Gary Hart @ 39
And an excellent topic for LTEs and calls to talk radio for pups to carry forward from this conversation.
Senator, I interviewed you years ago in Fargo for my book on political campaigning. Your ongoing common sense and progressive values are much appreciated. I hope President Edwards looks to your wisdom after the 2008 elections.
Senator, Here’s some advice I think you will welcome: If you quote a comment, please be sure to scroll to the bottom of the quoted comment, before typing your response. Otherwise, your comment is interspersed in the once you quote. Thanks.
Senator Hart, I’m a supporter and volunteer from your 1984 campaign. We also both worked hard to elect George McGovern in 1972. I sure wish things had turned out differently, both times.
On that note, what chance to you give the “change” candidates in our party’s primary next year? Are the Democrats going with “inevitability” as we did, finally, in 1984? And have you made a choice, yourself, yet?
Thanks for stopping by FireDogLake to chat — I hope you’ll visit again and often. And thank you for your service to our country.
Do I understand this correctly…Do you think we should create a standing UN military, and begin dissolving national military establishments?
Senator Hart,
Do you think the Democrats are just making a feeble attempt at reining in the Bush fiasco in Iraq, fully knowing it will fail, so that they can say “we tried” and hope to then capitalize in 2008 elections?
One final comment on closure:
I’m old enough to remember all the Southern Democrats [a couple of whom, like Byrd, are still around] and their filibusters of Civil Rights legislation. For a long time they were successful in blocking these bills, but, because opponents made them filibuster, they were tagged with the accurate meme of “obstructionists.”
This, in my opinion, is what the Democrats ought to be doing to the Republicans.
Such a move would accomplish two things:
** show the Republicans up for who they really are: obstructionists; and
** portray the Democrats as people of action, not the snivelling weaklings they look like now, as they cave and lose vote after vote.
Sen. Hart – Do you think the Telecom/NSA lawsuits should be litigated before they are simply ‘given’ retroactive immunity/indemnity for possible large-scale invasions of citizen privacy?
Shouldn’t the Telecoms have to show in evidence their ‘good faith efforts’ with the Government on behalf of their shareholders? – that before they simply acceded to the Government’s Request for our Telecom Info, they at least got covered legally by the Gov from liability by reviewing the Government’s legal rationale for clearly violating FISA?
Don’t we want to know if the Telecoms got their arms twisted by Bush, or if they just jumped-in willy-nilly?
Senator Hart, what do you think about the Bush administrations persistent efforts to undermine the UN. Iaea’s El Baradei told the world that the NIger Documents were false during the winter of 2002, he was ignored by the MSM and by the powers that be. El Baradei has been repeating for 4 years that there is no verifiable evidence that Iran has a nuclear “weapons” program, he has asked all sides to turn down the inflammatory rhetoric about the situation.
Why not support Iaea’s El Bardei’s efforts to deal with Iran through the inspection process?
Ann in AZ @ 42
As a Constitutional conservative, drastic measures such as impeachment should be reserved for national crises. The Republicans learned in the Clinton years that most Americans don’t want an impeachment process every presidency. Your Iran concern is well placed. I am concerned that V-P Cheney will manufacture a provocation, a la Gulf of Tonkin, and use it to justify a massive bombing of “nuclear” sites. Our ground forces are decimated and could not invade thereafter. But there would be massive upheaval in the Middle East
BigMitch @ 46
Have tried to, but I’m an old, pre-blog phogy.
Mauimom at 51 — I could be wrong, but I believe that Senate rules were changed since then to the sort of “gentleman’s agreement” non-filibuster cloture rules under which they operate now. I’d have to pull out my Senate Rules on specifics on that, though.
Senator:
Re your book, The Courage of Our Convictions:
What kind of response have you gotten from current Senate Dems (or House Reps) about your manfesto for the Democratic Party?
TexasEllen @ 44
Plus, we might get some good recipes. As far as looking silly goes, in the past, filibusters included reading the Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution. Imagine how silly Republicans would look reading e.g. “Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of Religion”
Senator Hart, thanks for your continued work, and for sparing the time to visit FDL.
One simple question: how do we get away from ’security theatre’ and policy based upon appearance and emotion towards a substantive assessment of risks and requirements? What needs to change in order to set the conversation about security on proper foundations?
Kathleen @ 52
Couldn’t agree more. The neo-cons are anti-internationalist, pro-unilateralists. And we’ve seen the results. I advocate strengthening the IAEA (INternational Atomic Energy Agency) substantially.
BigMitch @ 57
Right on, Tex.
What do the NeoCons have to gain from conflagration in the Middle East? Why would they push a war with Iran?
Senator Hart,
In your view is there an issue facing Americans over, say, the next 30 years that towers over all other issues?
radiofreewill @ 52
In addition to that, what do you think of Bush’s use of the states secret claim?
Gary Hart @ 24
Waxman, Leahy, and Conyers have all done something to expose the misdeeds and criminality of this Administration, but Pelosi and Reid have failed spectacularly and repeatedly to use the machinery of the House and Senate rules to force the issue on any issue. Instead we have seen a succession of cosmetic votes where Democrats can vote against a bill knowing it will still pass. Harry Reid has only made the Republicans carry through on a filibuster only once and even that was terminated after a single night. He caved completely on FISA and Pelosi structured the votes in the House so that the Democratic alternative had an impossible hurdle while the Bush approved version needed only a simple majority. Both Reid and Pelosi have been promising a showdown with Bush over Iraq but the showdown never comes and always seems to recede Friedman unit by Friedman unit. [Mod: Friedman unit = six months]
Their defense is that they don’t have the votes. Somehow I don’t think this would stop the Republicans if they found themselves in the position that Congressional Democrats find themselves in now. They would fight. Why can’t the Democrats?
Gary Hart @ 25
Any idea how the Repubican party enforces discipline? It’s hard not to conjecture the use of sinister tactics.
Thanks.
pseudonymous in nc @ 58
Excellent question. The U.S. Commission on National Security/21st Century, which I co-chaired (and which warned of terrorist attacks pre-9.11) tried to do exactly this. But no one, including the media, paid any attention.
Gary Hart @ 19
Welcome and thanks for spending time with us.
Normally I wouldn’t have an argument with this statement or sentiment however what we’ve seen this last six years is an upper level military leadership that has become totally politicized, so much so that when an experienced general like Shinseki told the absolute truth about what troop levels would be needed to support what the pentagon had planned, he was canned and replaced by someone who signalled he was on board with lying to the troops and the people.
The spectacle of Abazaid, Sanchez, and Miller lying through their teeth at the Abu Ghraib hearings was disgraceful as was the recent perjury by Rumsfeld and his tin soldiers regarding Pat Tillman’s murder.
This military has a long way to go before I place any trust in the leadership.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 56
Indeed, the number of Senators required to pass a cloture motion has declined. I think from 2/3 to 3/5, i.e. from 67 to 60.
bg @ 61
U.S. domination of the region. Security of oil supplies (Greenspan said so and immediately got slapped down). And, in their view, “peace in the MIddle East.”
Go figure.
Senator Hart “as a constitutional conservative, drastic measures such as impeachment, should be reserved for national crises”
A war based on a “pack of lies” that has created an enviroment for a genocide to take place, outing a CIA agent whose job was to uncover info about WMD’s, undermining our Judicial system etc. etc
How do you define “national crises”?
Why not give “Impeachment a chance”
ellwort at 66 — Follow the re-election campaign fundage. Rove was very effective while he was running WH political operations at making it go dry when someone stepped “out of line.”
Mr. Hart said:
On Huffington Post, before his testimony I urged him (Gen. Petraeus) to state that he has advised the president to withdraw from Iraq and will resign if his advice is not accepted.
Mr. Hart, I have always held you in high regard. I was taken aback by your remark. Thanks for clarifying your POV. What do you suppose motivated the General to do the exact opposite of what you advised?
Then do you agree with my premise that the Democrats are in dire need of three qualities that they do not yet possess:
Party loyalty
Party discipline
Unity of purpose
Until they develop these three qualities, they will be at a disadvantage against the Repugs.
Hugh @ 65:
Thanks. My point exactly.
The Dems would come off a LOT better if they “went down fighting” (i.e., lost a vote after forcing a filibuster) rather than this “folding their tents” and “gentlemanly agreement” crap they operate under now.
james @ 67
For better or worse, the majority of Americans, including me, disagree. Some senior military officers are “careerists,” but many, including those who have opposed the current war, have stood up in opposition and some have resigned in protest.
Any idea why the war in Iraq costs so much, about $9 billion a month? The Wolfowitz estimate was $10 to $20 billion total. Has anyone in the world ever made a $300 billion mistake in estimating the cost of something?
hackworth @ 72
I’ve never been successful at looking inside the soul of another human being.
This morning I read that Bin Laden is urging the Pakistanis to overthrow Musharrif (sp?), claiming he is an infidel. This cannot be a good thing. Pakistan already has functional nukes, has been the protector of the Taliban, etc. Just because we needed Pak help to launch the Afghanistan effort doesn’t mean that we will be happy with their internal gyrations. Pakistan is a much greater threat as the only Sunni state with nukes.
I would just like to say a warm hello to Senator Hart and thanks for all the support of Valerie and I in our fight as well as a sincere thanks for being so engaged in the fight to retake our democracy from those who would trash our system of governance. Joe Wilson
Sandman @ 76
Read Imperial Life in the Emerald City.
Joe Wilson @ 80
Welcome Joe!!!
Joe at 80 — Good to see you, as always. Do give your lovely wife a hello from me as well.
Greetings to Ambassador Wilson!
Sandman @ 77
That is hilarious, but oh so tragic. Why do these people think they can be successful against Iran when they have failed so spectacularly in Iraq? Truly, a conflagration is insane. So why would they go for it? We cannot control the Middle East.
well it’s a priviledge to have Senator Hart here at the lake, that is sure;
I think habeas protection is so important we should have forced an actual filibuster instead of simply allowing the republicans to declare it
If they want abolish our constitution they should at least loose sleep over it
Joe Wilson @ 79
And kindest regards to a great American couple and wonderful public servants who still fight to get America back on track.
Cynical Washington said of the Plame “outing,” What does it matter? Everybody leaks all the time?
It matters because the identification of Ms. Plame endangered her life and was a felony violation of the Intelligence Identification Protection Act.
Gary Hart @ 81
That was a featured FDL book club title.
Welcome Senator Hart.
a long look question;
How do you see the long term effect of the culture of corruption that is finally being addressed?
Do you foresee a long term negative impact for all politicians or just a backlash on the Republican party?
The immigration issue is big in Colorado.
Know people and contractors hiring undocumented workers there. How can these undocumented workers be protected? Many of these people are being taken advantage of.
Why don’t we fine the people who hire them more often, instead of always focusing on the little guys and gals.
How do you recommend dealing with this issue?
A double honor: being in the presence of Joe Wilson. The only guy in America who made me agree with something George H.W. Bush said, to wit, “a true American hero.”
Gary Hart @ 54
If you can not impeach the worst and most lawless President and VIce President in our history, what is the point of having the impeachment option in the Constitution at all. Also are you seriously saying that the country is not in and has not been in a Constitutional crisis for several years now in the face of Bush’s unitary executive?
Gary Hart @ 87
I’d add, endangered her co-workers lives…and all our lives. One pebble in the pond ripples outward.
Gary Hart @ 78
Well then, you’re no George Bush, sir.
;>)
Welcome Senator Hart
I was inspired by the speech you gave at the JFK Cracking the Case Conference in Bethesda 11/05.
A lot of us feel a sense of deja vu over the events of 9/11/01 — the massive discrepancies between the physical evidence and the official story; egregious mendacities on the part of government officials; a major news media eager to dismiss legitimate questions.
Do you share this sense of “repeating history” Eleven Twenty Two vis a vis Nine One One?
But, the american people WANT impeachment NOW. The TOWN that I work in just passed impeachment articles on to the state last week.
Do you still teach classes at Univ of Colorado? If so…which classes?
Senator Hart, why do you think it is that the Democrats haven’t taken an issue all the way to the mat and force the Republicans to filibuster for days/weeks/months?
Have the rules changed?
The Dems need to force “media moments” (like the closed session when they were in the minority) to force the truth out to the US electorate; for many of us, this just looks like gutlessness. Is it all gamesmanship, to take more seats and the presidency?
Sen. Hart,
Thank you for your continuing service to the U.S. Constitution!
A recent book by distinguished Professors Steven Walt and John Mearsheimer claims that you and your colleagues are subject to pressure from a lobbying group which primarily supports aims considered by most progressives to be quite regressive. Since publication of their book, the professors have been subject to attacks about their integrity, and colleges and other public speaking venues around the country have been heavily pressured to either force the professors to only appear in a debate format, or to not appear. Professors and University administrators who speak favorably about their book or present the gentlemen as speakers are under siege.
Do you have the courage to weigh in on this important issue, possibly by discussing whether or not you ever felt pressured by the lobby which is the subject of their book?
perris @ 86
AMEN! Where’s the outrage? This should be something that completely stops the work of the Senate until every Senator agrees to restore this basic constitutional right.
Bustednuckles @ 88
The late Arthur Schlesinger said that the US goes through periods of reform followed by periods of “consolidation” or absorption of those reforms. The periods of consolidation, or conservativism, virtually always lead to an era of corruption (a la Abramoff) and the cycle is repeated (Cycles of American History). I doubt we’ll ever stop the pendulum swing, certainly not without major changes in campaign finance.
Prairie Sunshine @ 93
Thank you Thank you Wilsons! We are right behind you.
Kathleen @ 90
Here, here. I find it sickening that we are a country of immigrants and we can’t make room for the next generation. Hearing stories from a friend who lived in Tucson, and sometimes visited Texas, it made my heart break to hear of a Mexican worker who was afraid to go to the hospital for an injury until the wound started to look like it had gangrene.
Hugh @ 92
DING We really do not need to go back to Nixon’s “if the president does it, it’s not illegal”.
Re: impeachment.
Senator Hart may have a point here. (Impeachment should be reserved for Constitutional crisis.) His is an optimistic point of view, viz., “This too shall pass.”
I am not big on conspiracies, but one could almost conclude that the whole Clinton impeachment was intended to give impeachment a bad name, and thereby lay the foundation for the apparent immunity that W is enjoying. In support of this theory, I would point to the fact that Iran-Contra led to the use of the word impeachment, and it really ticked off those who worship St. Ronny.
Gary Hart @ 54
Senator Hart, thank you for being here today. I wanted to ask, don’t you think the “fallout” from this will be a bit more severe than “massive upheaval” in the Middle East? I would think that spiking oil prices (an inevitable outcome), could hammer this country’s already faltering economy into another Depression. What are your thoughts on this?
On war and related issues and Congressional oversight. There is major engagement drilling for oil by Chevron (and other companies) 100 miles or so north of Timbuktu in Mali (next to Niger). Yet on a PBS special last week, a group of US Soldiers in Timbuktu were interviewed as part of what they (the soldiers and PBS) identified as searching for Al Queda (it was strange because they don’t seem either to know French or Tuareg yet they claimed to be identifying potential threats). I know this part of the world quite well. How come we have U.S. soldiers protecting oil companies in Africa, claiming to be searching for terrorism. Shouldn’t this be part of the Congressional mandate for oversight? Ambassador Wilson if you have thoughts too I would be curious.
SB_Gypsy @ 95
If they want it that badly, they should let their elected representatives know it in force. I’m just back from lobbying Members of Congress for nuclear arms reduction and the subject never came up. So they are not hearing from the American people. It is not enough just to blog.
Senator Hart, I’m late to the party, but I’m thrilled to have the honor of communicating with you today.
I probably should just buy your book, but I was wondering if you could give a couple of bullet points on how we can reclaim the Democratic Party.
I’ve tried to get active in my county party, but there’s barely anything there to get active in. I ran for state legislature last year with predictable results considering the heavily Republican district in which I reside.
I’m a firm believer in reclaiming the party, but I’m not sure how to go about it. I’m not affluent enough to exert pressure through donations.
April 26, 1999
George H. W. Bush (Former President and Director of the CIA):
“[W]e need more protection for the methods we use to gather intelligence and more protection for our sources, particularly our human sources, people that are risking their lives for their country. Even though I’m a tranquil guy now at this stage of my life, I have nothing but contempt and anger for those who betray the trust by exposing the name of our sources. They are, in my view, the most insidious, of traitors.”
http://www.dkosopedia.com/wiki…..988_-_2002
peanutbutter @ 105
The evil consequences, including those you mention, are virtually endless. It would be a disaster.
Gary Hart @ 101
Let’s hope our nations pendulum has swung as far right (wrong) as it will ever go. Because there are 1 million dead Iraqi people, close to 4000 American soldiers dead, thousands injured, and 4 million Iraqi refugees that are the direct result of that pendulum swinging.
On top of it our national security has been undermined. Again thank you Joe and Valerie Plame/Wilson
Every Day.
Every day I email Pelosi and Reid and my rep and my senator.
Every day.
Sen Hart:
What has changed that has made America so complacent about the obvious injuries to our nation and our Constitution? (Shorter: Why are we acting so differently now than during Watergate and the End of Vietnam?)
SufiLizard @ 108
I love these opportunities to promote books.
May I suggest “The Courage of Our Convictions” to answer your question. Too many Dems have lost their courage because they have no convictions.
Gary Hart @ 111
Related: The dollar at an all time low against the Euro and the Saudi’s have suggested they may switch from the dollar. Isn’t this one of the key issues in the move to oust Saddam by GWB, that he was threatening to leave the dollar? Hmmm
SB_Gypsy @ 112
Demand that others do likewise.
Office of faith-based Initiatives. Warrantless surveillance. “Enemy combatant” status. A war based on lies. The Plame case. 9/11. The politicization of the military. The Unitary Executive theory. The OVP as the Fourth Branch of gov’t. The Downing Street Memo. Disregarding of lawful subpoenas.
Senator Hart, this is a Constitutional crises. No one is going to mistake an impeachment here for a Whitewater/Monica style witch-hunt.
Ambassador Wilson, a heartfelt salute from me to you and Ms. Wilson.
Gary Hart:
The evil consequences, including those you mention, are virtually endless. It would be a disaster.
AND yet??? These people continue to push and push. They cannot seriously be that stupid. But they will still do it??
What can be done to stop them from attacking Iran?
Gary Hart @54 in response to Ann @42:
With all due respect, you did not answer the question regarding impeachment. You stated that you are a constitutional conservative who believes that “impeachment should be reserved for national crises.”
Do you not think that where we are in this country, with habeas corpus restoration not able to get enough votes in the senate to pass or where a bill to give troops in a war zone more time off cannot pass and is voted against by the party that “supports the troops?”
Isn’t the bastardization of FISA and the illegal wiretapping of American citizens enough to constitute a national crisis?
Do you or do you not think impeachment is warranted in this country at this time under these circumstances?
It’s a yes or no answer.
Thank you for answering my question, it is an honor to have Senator Hart and Ambassador Wilson here today.
President Bush promised to help rebuild Lebanon, do you know if anything is being done there or is it one of Bush’s empty promises?
SB Gypsy — Sen. Hart may not be familiar with the fact that FDL and its readers do an enormous amount of activism in terms of phone calls, letters, faxes, face-to-face meetings with elected representatives and so on, on a lot of issues pretty much every week. He’s a little busy himself, ya know. *g*
dude @ 113
It will take quite a while for history to analyze our age. But a prophetic man called Neal Postman answered your question as early as the 1970s with a book called “Amusing Ourselves to Death” You should read it.
Gary Hart @ 115
You may, and it has moved to the very top of my list of books to get. I applaud your continued service to our nation. I wish we had more of you.
O.K. if we go with the can’t Impeach Cheney and Bush for lying about a war of choice, killing millions and undermining national security, why not lower level officials?
John Dean has written several articles about the impeachment of lower level officials in the Bush administration who have committed serious crimes, so that they can never ever roll back into a future administration.
Feith, Bolton, Fleisher, Wurmser, Libby where do we begin?
Senator Hart’s book which he just referenced:
The Courage of Our Convictions: A Manifesto for Democrats
Yes, I know, but I’m beginning to think, especially after the last election with what happened to Lamont, that the established democratic politicians in DC just don’t want to hear, and are getting angry that we speak up.
Thank you Senator Hart for visiting the Lake today! Great to see Ambassador Wilson, as well!
Sen. Hart: Any thoughts on Congressional oversight vis-a-vis U.S. troops supporting Oil drilling around the world (see my 107)?
James @ 120
Inquiring minds would like to know!
Sandman, if the Katrina fix is any indication, the Lebanese should not hold their breath until W comes thru.
Gary Hart @ 123
I shall. Thanks.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 122
Thank you Thank you CHS and FDL
james @ 119
Since you put it that way, No.
Your quarrel is with our fellow countrymen, too many of whom want “bread” instead of freedom. (See, The Brothers Karamazov.)
I wanted to add my admiration to Ambassador Wilson since he appears to be here.
I am one of many people who respect the service of you and your wife to our country.
Thank you.
Gary Hart @ 108
It is not the case that they are not being told. It is that they are not listening. Pelosi declared long ago that impeachment is off the table and with minor quibbles that continues to be her position. I believe Conyers recently was more forthcoming.
Haven’t several previous Generals given Bush advise that he didn’t want to hear, and hasn’t his reaction, without exception, been to fire them? I’m citing Shinseki, Abizaid, Zinni, Odom, Batiste, et al. Bush simply seems to tell them not to let the door hit them in the ass on the way out. This is a president who is way out of control!
Senator Hart;
What do you feel Bush would have to do to warrant impeachment?
Gary Hart @ 134
Yup: the intentional breaking of the middle class, and dumbing down of America for political ends. One of the people on The View even said she didn’t know if the world was flat or round; they pay such people to be on TV? What have we come to?!
David W. Bartoo @ 138
that’s simple enough to answer.
David W. Bartoo @ 137
If you wish to impeach him, impeach him.
Let’s either do it or move on.
Goodby to all. Thanks for the opportunity.
GH
Gary Hart @ 123
Now that was an excellent book!!!
Sen. Hart,
Since you have been trying to get the Dems back into the national security game, Where do you think the line should be drawn between national security and open government?
Gary Hart @ 67
Can this change. Will you be chairing or co-chairing another effort to deal with security appropriately?
One more question for the Senator;
Do you feel that there is any chance that the Bush administration could actually use our diplomatic corps in the future?
It seems they are all semi retired at this point.
Sen. Hart — Thank you so much for being here today. Really appreciate the discussion.
Ann in AZ @ 137
He is in total control. Control of the message: “I will listen to the Generals on the ground, not politicians in Washington.” Many, if not most, Americans listen and nod compacently, with no appreciation of the irony.
Thank you for your time and service, Senator Hart.
Thank you, Senator Hart!
Thanks for being here with us, Senator Hart!
Thank you Senator.
Thank you, Senator Hart. Will be buying some books.
Thank you for your time and consideration of our many questions Senator Hart.
Wonder why Sen. Hart chose not to answer my question on troops protecting oil interests. Hmmm.
Well that was enlightening!
Guess I just don’t get it.
Was Nixon unfairly impeached?
But, thank you Senator for spending time with us.
Gary Hart @ 69
On 8/11/07 Iraq signed an agreement with Iran on building an oil pipeline.
http://www.rferl.org/featuresa…..20411.html
Also, there is the alliance of China, Russia and Iran, from the Asia Times 6/05: The endorsement of Tehran’s nuclear energy program by Moscow and Beijing reveals the primary impetus behind the China-Iran-Russia axis – to counter US unilateralism and global hegemonic intentions. For Beijing and Moscow, this means minimizing US influence in Asia, Central Asia and the Middle East. For the regime in Tehran, keeping the US at bay is a matter of survival.
Lastly, China is ranked #2 in Major Foreign Holders of Treasury Securities.
If the US attacks Iran, wouldn’t China’s retaliation be dumping US Treasury Securities that could cause a catastrophic US financial nuclear disaster? Why is the US saber-rattling when Iran has the backing of Russia and China?
Thank you Senator Hart, Christy and the Wilsons!!!
Sorry OT Senator Feingold is ripping on the Senate floor.
Thank You, Senator, for coming on this forum today.
I vote in Nevada and am active in the Democratic Party. They have some fine hard working volunteers. However, few are activists. I do volunteer at phone banks and go door to door. Also open my home to gatherings.
In frustration, I started house parties based on discussing issues. We divided into groups and aired our views. To put their concerns into action I made a list of Internet organizations where they could sign petitions, review poignant issues and call their senators and representative.
I hold their hand every step of the way. I send out e-mails letting them know an issue that needs a phone call from them. My concern is that I am the active force behind this activity. If I am indisposed the ball is dropped and sits there. Give me some suggestions on how to get people to be independent and self-motivated. I really need some inspiration myself at this point. I’m burning out.
Richmond at 154 — Perhaps because he didn’t know the answer? Or because he’s new to blogging and got hit with a lot of questions at one time? Occam’s razor and all…
RockPaperScizzors @ 156
You’ve got it. The whole thing is nuts, and this is without the Is*ael aspect and the idiots promoting war from that side.
BigMitch @ 147
Yes. Listen to the Generals who don’t disagree with you. Great example of Leadersheep.
Gary Hart @ 141
GIVE IMPEACHMENT A CHANCE!
Feingold rampant on CSPAN-2.
The admin has much to say about alQ in Iraq, but very little to say about the AQ sanctuary in Pakistan. War in Iraq is not making us safer. War in Iraq is playing into the hands of our enemies. It’s not just the Admin-Congress is complicit.
btw, for everyone’s convenience, I have both of Sen. Hart’s most recent books linked in the post above to the Amazon page that gets Jane a little server moolah if you order through there. ;-)
If I may say, it seemed to me that the good Senator got frustrated with the continuing questions re; impeachment. He made his views clear in my opinion.
Senator Hart, do you have any advice on how to raise our national discourse? We are so stuck. Miss Spears, Ms. Smith, Brangelina – good Christ, who cares?
See you in La Canada, Ambassador Wilson.
The Asia Times has been publishing on how unhappy China is with the de facto devaluation of the dollar through the interest rate adjustment. Venezuela has already started to dump dollars.
Gary Hart @ 141
Well, that was abrupt. He still did’nt answer the question.
Well, that was cool.
Clinton was impeached only because the Republics could. Bush is not impeached only because the Democrats won’t. It’s doubtful that the authors of the Constitution intended this.
Ambassador Wilson;
Don’t know if you are still here, but thank you for speaking to truth. Of late there are
few ‘profiles in courage,’ you and your wife represent the best of that tradition.
Helpless at 169 — Actually, he answered several questions on the same subject if you look through the whole chat. Continuing to ask someone the same/similar questions because you don’t like their answer is not the same as them not answering the question. Just for future reference…
bg @ 168
Interesting: Venezuala AND Saudi Arabia both contemplating switching from the dollar. Enemies and more enemies (both with oil!! Hmmmm). What are the dates for the major downturn of the stock market (for profit) again?
Kathleen @ 164
that’s All We Are Saying…
Gary Hart @ 115
Senator:
In this regard, I’d appreciate a response to my 57. Thanks. Just curious.
Can I/did I get an answer on #98? If so, I didn’t see it…..
re 95
the massive discrepancies between the physical evidence and the official story
egregious mendacities on the part of government officials
a major news media eager to dismiss legitimate questions
=
No comment.
I respect your silence on the subject, sir.
Thanks for join’n the Lake!
bg @ 169
Both nations will be comforted to know that the MBA Preznit thinks he got a ‘B’ in Econ 101. Actually, he got a ‘C-’, but few expect Bush to tell the truth any more.
QuakerGirl, don’t give up! If everyone was as active a citizen as you are, we wouldn’t be in this mess. Please rest if you need to, and know that the rest of us will keep things going while you do. (((QuakerGirl)))
Gary Hart @ 108
With respect, Senator, I’ve been writing and phoning my Senators and Congresswoman for months now, telling them I’m in favor of impeachment for Cheney, Bush and a good portion of the Cabinet. If the polls are correct so have many others.
I’m getting frustrated and frightened that we’re being dragged, kicking and screaming, into World War III with an order of “Great Depression” on the side…
Richmond @ 174
Iranian Oil Bourse–oil traded in Euros only. I think it might be related to what you find “interesting”. I am trying to understand the impact myself as a layman. Wikipedia has an entry.
Bustednuckles @ 167
Yes, but he also offered a rather bizarre rationale for opposing impeachment, that it should be reserved for a “Constitutional crises.” This is obviously going to beg the question-what does it take? Nobody was rude, and there is a huge amount of admiraton for Sen. Hart here, even from those of us who disagree with him vehemently on this issue.
Thanks for your time, but if this is the attitude of a former Senator and presidential candidate towards impeaching an imperial out of control president then I’m kind of glad Donna Rice was in that townhouse after the “Bring it on” challenge to the press.
If you want him impeached, impeach him??? I don’t see anywhere in the constitution where I can introduce my own articles of impeachment against this tyrant.
But the mindset that was displayed here explains a hell of a lot to me about why we are getting nowhere with those professional politicians in the moribund Democratic Party.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 173
But he managed to do an awful lot of book-pimping.
David W. Bartoo @ 155
Nixon wasn’t impeached, he resigned before they could impeach him.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 173
well said….
dude @ 162
Did you see the vote today? The Republicans hate the troops if the troops vote Democrat.
Actually, I have this sneaking suspicion, and it becomes more like an alarming suspicion from time to time, that the whole matter of impeaching Bill Clinton was done to give the country impeachment fatigue. I wonder if they didn’t bring such bogus charges that would not fly with the American people so that when they elected the next president, and he was a Repug, no one would have the nerve to bring him up on charges no matter how outrageous he acted. They may have done this simply because it would be too soon after the Clinton impeachment debacle and people didn’t want it to happen in consecutive presidencies.
RonD @ 184
I do not disagree with you, I merely stated he made his views clear.
Richmond @ 175
Military action against Iran will make oil cost more in either dollars or euros. Sounds like yet another gift to the Saudis and oil companies but not to the stock market.
james @ 184
Bingo.
james @ 184
Did anyone ask Senator Hart about the MoveOn ad and the reaction today in the Senate?
Mauimom at 185 — In my experience, that is what people who write books do. *g*
You gotta love it. I was just over at Kos where I was greeted by a Chevron ad. WTF?
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 188
Yes and I saw McClatchy’s graph on the Republican use of “filibuster” . Real Leadersheep.
Joe Klein’s Conscience at 193 — Yes, and he answered it.
There are so many book being published but far less is being recorded by the people. The Internet will carry only so much before they are drowned out by all the other noise. I see little out there that is the voice of the witness to history – we the people.
When I look back on the most powerful records from the past it is the Diary. No editors. No marketing tools. The diary of Anne Frank is a classic example. Women’s diaries at a time when they had no vote nor rights gives us in-depth insight into the life of women at that time. We are the witnesses to history.
Richmond @ 195
Greed knows no bounds.
Brantl @ 155
Right you are!
He was unfairly maligned?
dude @ 182
Well this begs the question. How does one of modest means invest in Euros? I heard somewhere (sorry no link) that Cheney moved a significant amount of money into Euros a while back — which seems to be akin to the referee betting on basketball games in which he officiated.
But maybe we should take a cue from Cheney and protect our own economic interests.
Ann in AZ @ 189
We can always do what Thomas Jefferson suggested. Or was it Madison?
David W. Bartoo @ 138
Senator Hart, please don’t give shrub any new ideas. It’s bad enough now, and you’re too articulate. If you answer this, please use nonspecific language. Thanks. *sigh*
Forgive me but: !!!IMPEACH NOW!!!
please forgive my bias.
Christy, thank you for setting this up, I really enjoy these “interviews” — if that’s the right word.
Well, the impeachment question certainly seems to have hit a nerve. Why is it that anyone who has spent any time inside the Beltway and received its benefits and prestige has such difficulty in questioning it in any fundamental way?
Why is it that Gary Hart after nearly 7 years of Bush’s disregard for the law and the Constitution, after all of the corruption, incompetence, cronyism, and criminality, after all of the disasters and mistakes still hasn’t noticed that Bush is not just a bad President but the worst in our history? Why as a “Constitutional conservative” would he not make the connection to the remedy which the Constitution prescribes for such cases?
In this does he not exemplify the business as usual attitude of the Democrats and the media in refusing to see what is immediately before his eyes?
The nation that owns the money that the oil is traded in gets a tiny cut of the action. Every gallon of oil makes our govt a bit of money. They don’t want to let go of that, so they bombed Iraq. Now that Iran is going to do the same, they’re talking about bombing Iran.
Simple.
Neil Postman…
Christy Hardin Smith @ 194
Yeah, but once, or maybe twice, would have been sufficient. After all, his books got a mention in the intro. It just makes it “appear” that that’s all he’s interested in.
Joe Wilson @ 80
Joe Wilson if you are still here, Bob Woodward is soon to visit our campus here in Athens Ohio. My question for him will be ” why did you actively try to undermine the investigation of the outing of Valerie Wilson/Plame by going on the MSM (Larry King live and another program and calling the investigation “much to do about nothing”(will quote his other comments).
Is this an appropriate question for Woodward? Any other suggestions?
CHS,
The more I think about it, the more I believe Reid should have forced a true filibuster on Webb. That was the best ground to fight on.
SufiLizard @ 201
Do you have a broker? You’d have to ask your financial advisor. Sadly, that horse might have left the barn already. To make good money in currency trading, you usually have to have big money.
Hugh @ 207
Can you really blame the media when they need to gear up for another OJ trial?
Crap, I missed this.
I worked on his ‘88 campaign staff (part 2)
Ann in AZ @ 189
Me, too, Ann.
Helpless Dancer @ 169
He all ready told us what he thinks. It is up to us, but not really. It is up to our REps.
I’m sorry, james — did you somehow miss the part at the very top of the post where I said to be polite? Asking pointed questions is one thing, not only allowed but encouraged. But namecalling is another thing altogether in a guest thread.
We work very hard to get people of a lot of different stripes and experiences to chat on this blog. We get them here to have a conversation. That sort of juvenile idiocy is not helpful. If you think it is easy to set something like this up, then you have another thing coming. It is disrespectful to the blog and to Jane, and I will not have it. Understood?
Hugh A 207:
Now, now,
We have been visited by greatness;
Let us bask in that truth.
Frankly, I was unimpressed.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 56
Hi Christy, the current rules allow the “gentleman’s agreement” on ending a filibuster by cloture but do not require it it. It is really up to Harry Reid. That was what he did when they had the all nighter. The problem was that he was doing it for show since he allowed the Senate to move on to other business after one night. If he chooses to do so he can hold all business until the Senate votes to end debate.
OT – The vote was 72-25 to condemn Move-On and the Betrayus ad. (TPM)
WRT impeachment, I for one would think the video of the president laughing and looking for WMD’s would suffice.
Mauimom @ 192
So when you all were considering voting for Gary Hart in that long ago election, were you aware that he was a “Constitutional conservative?”
Brantl @ 187
Uh, impeachment is like indigtment(sp), he definately WAS impeached. One of the articles of impeachment was not handing over documents that the Congress had supoenaed.
He resigned before they found him guilty.
Tom @ 214
Were you Donna’s driver?? *g*
Thanks for coming by, Senator!
Among the Democratic presidential candidates, do you have a sense that any or all of them feel that dramatic initiatives will be needed from day one to indicate a clean break from Bush policies? To make clear to our (now-nearly-former) partners that the US is serious about upholding its international commitments and responsibilities–including leadership responsibilities? Or do they primarily have the sense that they will come in in and change some things here and there?
Are any of them prepared to make statements analagous to Khruschev’s denunciation of Stalin? Should they be?
Sen Hart- You tell me and anyone that wants to listen just how you can continue to support the Democratic Party after the performance that they offered in the past month?
Thankyou sir.
McCain stirring it up about Iran. What an asshole. IAEA’s El Baradei has asked all sides to knock it off with the “inflammatory rhetoric”
McCain why do you insist as Lieberman does in stirring it up. Why not support El Baradei? Why are you undermining him?
QuakerGirl @ 198
I recently found a diary I kept on the war from November 2002 until November 2004 (I guess I gave up after the election) Anyway, lots of detail but my writing is so godawful I can’t bear to read It ! laughing
SB_Gypsy @ 206
I did not follow. Who “owns” Euros? Or did you mean who makes the market gets a cut (in this case, Iran)?
Richmond @ 221
I see a post coming about that.
Condemning the ad, So what? it’s still free speech.
Nothing to see here, move on.
*g*
I’m glad no one brought up Donna Rice and “Monkey Business” while Gary Hart was at the Lake…*g*
SB_Gypsy @ 224
Nixon resigned before there was even an impeachment trial.
egregious @ 180
Thank you, Egregious. I’m in Nevada at the moment and enjoying the beauty of the mountains but politically, I feel isolated. I solo here. Sometimes I think my dear Democrats here think my phone calls will do it for them as well. A bumper sticker is hard to find here. When I return to California, well, activism is in the air. I breathe it.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 173
I realize this. Although to me it seemed as if he considered Bush’s transgressions a purely political thing as opposed to a matter of law.
Actually, Nixon resigned the day after he qualified for his retirement package, so that they couldn’t take that away WHEN they handed down the guilty verdict. (I lived in DC during – and experienced Tricky Dick’s union busting and all the garbage on the streets in august when the garbagemen went on strike)
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 211
Wikipedia says the IOB hasn’t officially opened having put off 3 earlier announced opening dates. There’s still time!!!
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 212
I’m not talking about making money, I’m talking about stopping the loss.
With the value of the dollar plummeting, we’re all getting poorer without realizing it, but there will come a time in the not-to-distant future when the realization will smack us in the face.
And it looks like the dollar’s plunge is far from over (at least barring some drastic turnaround in world events.)
Maybe the Euro isn’t the best choice since it’s already so strong compared to the dollar, but finding a currency that will remain relatively stable will help ensure the “real” value of your money doesn’t decline with the dollar.
Kathleen @ 163
How the heck did he do that? The esteemed former Senator read our minds. See my way-late request #203 & take a 2nd look at his answer to you.
Sure is touchy tho. Left in a hurry.
Gee, and I just showered. Sorry guys.
Richmond @ 173
And news from the Carlyle Group: Carlyle Selling Stake to Abu Dhabi. The Carlyle Group, the District’s private-equity giant, announced that it is selling a 7.5 percent share of its general partnership to an investment group owned by the government of Abu Dhabi — one of a flurry of deals today involving Arab governments and U.S. and British financial assets. ..The deal is the latest in a series of transactions reshaping the private equity world, including the Chinese government’s recent $3 billion investment in the Blackstone Group, and Blackstone’s subsequent issuing of public stock…The Carlyle deal comes on the same day that the governments of two other Arab states, Dubai and Qatar, announced they are buying large shares of the Nasdaq and London Stock exchanges…”This deal raises serious questions that must be answered,” said U.S. Sen. Charles E. Schumer (D-NY), chairman of the Joint Economic Committee. “Those questions will include — should we allow foreign governments to take over our financial exchanges and how much control and influence should those foreign governments have?”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..451_2.html
Blackstone acquires stake in Chinese firm
Private equity firm cements its status as key player in China, after spending $600M for 20 percent stake in chemical firm.
http://money.cnn.com/2007/09/1…../index.htm
dude @ 182
The core effect of an Iranian oil bourse would be an accelerating devaluation in the American dollar, tied as it is to per-barrel petroleum pricing internationally.
If other countries follow, you have the makings of a ‘wheelbarrow economy’ in the U.S., as there is no currency fallback standard (gold, for example) to rely upon for balance.
Hussein in Iraq flirted with a bourse, and Iran has threatened one for years.
IMO, it is one of two reasons why the current U.S. government has designs on Iran…The other being revenge for the loss of American hegemony during the cultural revolution of 1979.
Well, not too far OT:
If there are any SoCal firedogs out there, Howie Klein will be the guest speaker at the Foothill Community Democrats’ meeting Thursday Sept, 27. “Politics and the New Media” (that’s us, folks) is his topic.
If you are interested, email me at crayon52 at gmail dot com.
Richmond @ 219
Would love to see the Dems who voted Yea. Linky?
I think there’s much frustration about impeachment because those in power in Congress feel no obligation to explain their stance against it. They want everyone to shut up and accept it as if they are the parents and we are the children.
Impeachment fatigue is a concept of the MSM.
If we, the people are pissed at some elected official we want them held accountable. Why no?
There is more than ample reason to hold some impeachment trials and if they didn’t dick around and got on with it we would have a government which DID something. Getting rid of crooks is DOING something very vital.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 217
I don’t believe I ever directed any rude, name-calling at Hart. I expressed my opinions about impeachment, and when he was finished telling us why we should suck it up and bite the bullet and pointedly left the comments are, I believe I responded to another commenter’s remark about pimping books.
If that is what you are referring to then I don’t see where anything I said was rude. I and others here greatly appreciate your time and effort in putting these things together, but when a prominent former presidential candidate, who lost the nomination due to Democratus erectus, tells us we should impeach this guy ourselves and dances around the issue while putting himself forward as a voice of virtue and prudence….sorry, he had a shot at saving our country from the first Bush which would have saved us from this current monster.
I don’t mean to be confrontational but when someone puts himself in the crosshairs is there a set code of conduct by which we should conduct ourselves? I didn’t come right out and ask about Donna Rice, did I?
[CHS notes: No, but I believe the words pimp and whore did come up. Think of it this way — is this the sort of conversation you’d have with your grandma or some other person with whom you are polite? All I’m asking is for some politeness during guest threads. Not too much to ask, I don’t think — you can be as confrontational on the issues as you like. Just watch the namecalling and the rudeness. This isn’t up for debate with me — we enforce this regularly in every guest thread across the board. And we are able to get guests for chat for precisely that reason. This isn’t some barroom brawl, it is a discussion. Please treat it as such.]
Former Senator Hart recommended a lot of books, love that. Will make a list.
Richmond @ 219
You’re kidding me!? waa
I can’t believe we have to free our free speech now.
gd
Badwater at 242 — I think there is so much frustration because they are looking at the political reality as it is numbers-wise and sentiment-wise at the moment. And people who support impeachment are coming at the issue from the emotional and angry end of what ought to be. There is a disconnect in the conversation there, a very real one, on both ends.
But that doesn’t mean that asking the same question over and over again is going to bridge that gap, either. And for a guest who only had an hour to give us today, it was a bit of badgering on a question he’d already asked and answered several times, frankly.
Mommybrain @ 214
Great minds think alike.
BigMitch @ 105
The government is broken.
All three branches.
TERM LIMITS
Oh oh, my comment @ 230 awaiting moderation. I think I know why.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 246
Yes, I agree with you.
dude @ 228
The European Union prints Euros. They will be getting the cut.
SB_Gypsy @ 222
As I recall, he resigned when the house judiciary committee voted articles of impeachment out but before the entire house voted on them.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 216
Excellent rules, and they were generally followed. I was nice and I’ve never liked the guy, even before the Monkey Business monkey business, which was caused by his version of “bring ‘em on.”
He has a right to promote his book, and because he’s been out there doing that, he fell into the modality he’s used to. But I felt he avoided some important questions – I’m not including my unanswered questions in that category – at this very important time when, somehow even though nobody in the world with their heads screwed on correctly wants a war with Iran, but people very similar to Sen. Hart aren’t going to fucking stop it.
BTW, I only asked my questions about Kucenich exclusion, supporting progressive candidates in 2008, and the lobby which cannot be named, because I knew he wouldn’t answer them.
Elliott @ 244
As a Constitutional conservative, drastic measures such as impeachment should be reserved for national crises. The Republicans learned in the Clinton years that most Americans don’t want an impeachment process every presidency. Your Iran concern is well placed. I am concerned that V-P Cheney will manufacture a provocation, a la Gulf of Tonkin, and use it to justify a massive bombing of “nuclear” sites. Our ground forces are decimated and could not invade thereafter. But there would be massive upheaval in the Middle East
Gary Hart @ 54
This is not a national crisis?
The Republicans set the bar very very low–and it’s an egregious double standard not to apply that same metric to George W. Bush.
He didn’t just lie about a personal matter; he lied about the reasons for going to war.
And if you can’t impeach a guy who unilaterally appoints himself “The Decider,” invents or applies ’signing statements’ and the ‘unitary executive’ to betray the meaning and spirit of the law—
–and is the first guy to use preemptive wars based on fear and propganda lies since Germany in the 1930s, rather than employ sober, democratic, Legislative Branch Declarations of War–
–then who CAN you impeach? Under what circumstances could the violations be more egregious?
I’m sorry, Senator Hart, but these are the plain facts. If impeachment is to be used in rare cases, our current Prznt and situation is at the top of the list. At some it’s an obligation–and capitulation to The Usurper is not an option.
i believe that usa americans such as miss south carolina et al are getting the government they deserve. unfortunately, we’re going down with the ship too. whatever you do, don’t follow the masses.
BigMitch @ 251
That’s correct.
New thread
BigMitch @ 252
You are correct.
Senator Hart —
Will you please weigh in on a subject that has torn apart the FDL community, and divided such natural allies as Hillary Clinton and Chuck Shumer on one side, and John Kerry on the other.
Yankees or Red Sox?
(Sorry.)
Christy Hardin Smith @ 245
Christy – I’m trying to analyze what Sen. Hart was saying about the whole “I was in DC and talking to these people and the [impeachment] topic did not even come up” thing. Is he saying that there are not enough of us contacting them? Not enough of us making noise or protesting? That we are not effective? I’m just trying to figure out what the issue is..I realize that for him, impeachment is this huge weapon in terms of the Constitution and government – that in his opinion, we have to literally be there with masses of people at the gates of the Capital and White House with pitchforks and guns threatening to bring down the government – but I also think that what has happened over the past 7 years has to be terms genuine threats to the constitution. But is he saying we are not loud enough or there are not enough of us?
SufiLizard @ 236
I’ve been putting all my cash in Gold. It won’t make you more money, but it will retain the value of the money you already earned.
BigMitch, one of the most puzzling things to me is that Clinton took a pass on nosing around Iran/Contra. That was taken as a great weakness by the bad guys and IMHO made inevitable everything that happened to him thereafter.
coyne @ 255
LOL!
Christy;
If politics is ‘the art of the possible,’
why do you suppose so much destructive
’stuff’ is possible while what we all, presumably, care about is not?
I would far rather see my nation behaving as a genuine leader in solving the world’s problems that being one of the major problems.
I’m sorry if you think my behavior unwise, as this is your ‘house’ I shall try to behave with greater decorum in future.
BigMitch @ 259
Back away from that scorecard and head back to the dugout…
SanderO @ 247
NOOOOOOO! Term limits are for lazy people. If you don’t like someone vote them out.
Give voting a chance.
New Thread upstairs
darkblack @ 238
U. S. effectively controls the world oil-market as the dollar has become the “fiat” international trading currency. Today U.S. currency accounts for approximately two-thirds of all official exchange reserves. More than four-fifths of all foreign exchange transactions and half of all the world exports are denominated in dollars and U.S. currency accounts for about two-thirds of all official exchange reserves. The fact that billions of dollars worth of oil is priced in dollars ensures the world domination of the dollar. It allows the U.S. to act as the world’s central bank, printing currency acceptable everywhere. The dollar has become an oil-backed, not gold-backed, currency.
http://www.thirdworldtraveler……_euro.html
ET – you’re a god.
CHS@217:
I see you don’t mind putting something out about calling me rude, but my response and the reasoning behind what i said has been moderated out apparently.
Someone above made a comment about free speech?
I would appreciate it if you would put my response to your post up for people to read for themselves.
Transparency works both ways no matter which party the person represents, at least it should.
bg @ 119
Gary,
I think that the reason that the Cheneypeople keep pushing this is that we have a psychopath for a leader. His followers are echoing this condition. Asking why they do it is the wrong question. When people are insane they do crazy things.
Hitler brought Germany crashing to the ground. To these people, what they are doing is righteous and necessary, and this is why Cheney needs to be impeached.
Bush needs to be impeached because he has willingly endorsed and stubbornly refused not only to change the policy but instead to push it to the extreme of nuking Iran.
Tula upstairs. It’s a beauty.
Gary Hart didn’t even answer my question about Dem response to his book. And there was some Monkey Business with my now deleted comment @ 230…
ET at 253 — I figured that. Sometimes not getting a question answered tells you as much or more as getting one.
Elliott @ 227
That’s what makes your diary so valuable. It is intended to be informal and immediate impressions. Remember, Anne Frank’s diary was seriously edited for publication. Her ideas stayed intact but grammar and sentence structure was improved. Personally, I prefer the original of any writer. There is a purity to it.
Richmond @ 253
I know how you feel, I was that way yesterday. But maybe after stepping away and taking some time for yourself, you’ll see that we really are making a difference, a real difference!
newtonusr @ 270
Snark? – mortal enough to blush. and to get wet on the way to my car to head off to work. later, pups.
Elliott @ 244
Just for the record, my response to CHS@217 was completely moderated out….this place isn’t as free as you think.
David at 265 — I have absolutely no idea to what you are referring…
Christy Hardin Smith @ 245
That’s a false argument. Democrats didn’t have the votes or even the public with them when they started their investigations into Richard Nixon. But only 4 months later Nixon was gone. If we accept this “we don’t have the votes” argument, we will never get anywhere. And what’s more, it is not an excuse not to fight. The Beltway disconnect is not based on an argument. It is based on a business as usual attitude. It is based on a go along to get along Washington culture. It is based on endless rationalizations for why nothing can be done.
Tula’s upstairs with more Workers’ Benefits.
She benefits us all.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 274
{{{{Redd!}}}} I’ll try to e-mail you on what you brought up earlier when I get some time much later. Thanks.
ET@252:
I followed those rules and was as respectful as anyone else. Read my comments and point out where I was rude to Hart.
In addition, my response to Christy’s chiding was completely moderated out.
This ain’t free speech.
Hugh at 279 — I’m not saying it’s a good argument — I’m saying that’s where the disconnect is. In every conversation that I’ve ever had about the issue, that’s how it breaks down. It is what we are dealing with, like it or not.
Hugh @ 278
Hugh – I sort of sympathize with the former Senator here. He has had his public moments and highs and lows. It’s his choice to focus on his personal passions and leave us to ours.
Toby Wollin @ 261
What Hart was saying was that it is our fault and not the politicians’ for impeachment not happening. It’s a typical reversal of blame strategy. Politicians can’t be expected to discharge their Constitutional duties except under heavy pressure from their constituents.
james @ 281
My own comment @ 230 was moderated out of existence as well. I’m somewhat disappointed. Donna Rice and Monkey business: I said it was a good thing no one brought it up while Gary Hart was still at the Lake. Ironic that the first (and only) time I was censored at FDL was on the day when the Senate voted to condemn the MoveOn.org ad.
Christy @ 280
Well, my question, piling on, as it were, about impeachment seemed to impel the good Senator’s leave taking. I thought you were calling all of us (we know who we are) on hammering a guest.
Mommybrain @ 263
Two reasons, IMO. The first was the altruistic: Clinton truly believed he could “heal America’s wounds” by moving on; Second, a bunch of Iran/Contra operations, i.e.,weapons going to Central America and cocaine coming back, were run out of Arkansas, specifically the Mena airport, and it is possible that as Governor of Arkansas, Clinton had knowledge of this, and was thus compromised.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 283
I didn’t mean to make that sound like a criticism of you but of the Democrats that try to sell that line. But I see all of these defenses for inaction that we have seen not as arguments but as dodges.
Ads don’t kill our troops. Lack of rest and training does.
Ok, I’m not sure if anyone is here still, but I feel bad stepping on Tula’s post to rant.
God dammit to f’n hell, I can’t believe this moronic Cornyn vote ever got brought up, and then gets over 60 votes. Then is the same f’n breath, the Boxer/Durbin gets filibustered on party lines.
What the fuck is going on?? Either (a) our leaders have absolutely no idea how to play politics in a way to keep from getting wedged or (b) They dont realize the first freaking thing about building a coalition is to prevent wedging (c) They are more afraid of the “left” than the right.
AAAARRRRGGGHHHH. I am fucking fuming. Time and time again these amateurs get rolled.
More and better democrats. I rededicate myself towards that goal. Maybe with a 75% majority we will actually get “equal time”.
? for christy. do you think we can solve our problems with out facing the truth about our own party? ie john murtha upgraded to one of the most corrupt on crew’s list. do you think surface issues are enough to overcome the damage?
RonD @ 289
Gary Webb: Dark Alliance.
Hugh @ 287
In my opinion he was saying something we’ve all heard many times before, to wit: You don’t have the votes! Furthermore, you are not likely to get enough votes. Therefore, you’re just spinning your wheels, wasting energy.
I’m not sure if I heard much in the way of suggestion as to a better way of using that energy. Hmmm. Wonder if anyone will make a list of the positive suggestions evident in this post’s comments? Especially, which of them came from Gary Hart.
Ed*ard Teller @ 283
ET if you do not feel like you have been treated fairly send in an overview of the discussion or lack of to FAIR http://www.fair.org/index.php,
I really think that “most” of the FDL blogger folks try to be fair, even though I do not always agree with their conclusions about issues and sometimes people get testy when they are questioned. From my understanding they are under some pressure (receiving letters etc) on certain issues and topics.
There have been websites and blogs attacked so severely over the last five years when they have tried to deal with particular issues that face our nation these sites have been shut down by these attacks.
Ask why and stay open!
newtonusr @ 284
Gary Hart’s reputation derives from what are supposed to be his well considered views. I have no problem with him having different interests from mine. It just seems to me discordant with his image for thoughtfulness that he dismisses so lightly what is the core question of the Bush Presidency: To impeach or not to impeach. It is not just another question. It is the question.
This is the Republican response to the good Senator’s … whatever:
And if pigs had wings….
Because you would have squawked to high heaven, and gotten in the way of the plan, which was to re-establish the Empire, after all.
It was a known possibility, even, per Deadeye Dick on CSPAN in 1994, a likely one. The availability of endless war, together with the legalism that the President’s powers are at a zenith in time of war, made the massive power grab we now see into The Dream Within Reach.
We’re Republicans and corporate Democrats. We’re neither open, nor honest. We just take money and countries for our own profit and kill or destroy anyone who even thinks about getting in the way.
Those “superconfident leaders” don’t care. If they’d won overwhelmingly and Iraq had gone back to a quiescent peace, they’d have gone on to the next war, because the existence of a continuous state of war, facilitating the Presidential power grab was the first prime objective of their policy. Expansion of the Empire, their second, also facilitated by the same continuous state of war.
Them? They’re the party of women, gays and coloreds. Those people don’t count, and no one serious listens to their party.
Any questions?
Biodun @ 288
You could almost say, we are seeing a microcosm of what happened to the MSM. Can’t say anything that might be taken as insulting or insensitive to the “powers that be” lest they won’t come and speak to you again.
Hugh @ 281:
In this morning’s WaPo there was an article about having to “reschedule” a book party for that idiot Greenspan [the party having been scheduled so that it would conflict with Yom Kipper]. Hosts of said party: Jim Lehrer & Don Graham.
SanderO @ 248
We already have them; they’re called elections. Somebody has to remain, if only to reveal where the light switches, etc., are. You know, things like procedures, tactics, strategies, where is stuff, etc.
scribe @ 300
Scribe
This is great! I take your screen name seriously.
Hugh @ 296
Truth!!!
james @ 280 and Biodun @ 289 – Please note that both of your comments that you reference as having been censored actually are posted above – you may need to refresh the whole page, and not just the comments, to see them. Here they are:
james @ 243
Biodun @ 230
[Well said, scribe @ 300.]
Christy Hardin Smith @ 276
Bless you, Christy.
Grouch Potato @ 294
How about (d) They are not really Democrats and they are there to destroy the Party from within?
I was saying this throughout the 90s with the Clinton and friends. After the events of the last few years especially, with J. Low LieberME! and the Blur Dog Coalition amoung several others, can it be any more obvious?!?
They are not on our side. They are there to serve their Conglomerate masters, and throw us just enough bones to keep Liberals, the majority of the country, pacified enough to keep voting-in the mega-Corporate candidates. Keep the status quo, and make sure there’s no repeat of the 50s and 60s upheavals.
RockPaperScizzors @ 270
Up above it was suggested that a stabile currency was essential and the US and Euro are rationally traded and float. We complain a lot about the Chinese having a fixed currency and not allowing it to float. DOes that mean if an oil exchange were demonimated in strictly controlled Chinese currency, there would be problems valuing oil in a floating market and therefore international monetary chaos?
Hugh @ 299
good point
james @ 244
The words “pimp” and “whore” came up in a totally different context in response to something someone else said and by that time the distinguished adulterer had left the site.
Any way you want to cut it to defend your argument and your criticism of what I said, you’re wrong. I was nothing but deferential to Hart and if you think what I said about pimp and whore being the middle names given to senators when they get elected take a good look at Lieberman, Biden, Clinton, and the entire GOP membership of that body.
Hart defeated the Democrats in 88 just as much as Clinton did in 2000 with his behavior albeit the Supremes hijacked that election.
Richmond @ 174
Don’t forget: the stock market (DOW) represents corporations which make money from foreign labor, so the American economy might crash without the stock market going down so far or fast.
Ever since the beginning of the outsourcing of jobs began there has been a splitting of the markets from the American economy.
dude @ 182
If Euros (or something else) is to be used for international trade of oil, then there would be less real economic activity underlying the dollar and thus much less need for dollars.
This doesn’t necessarily impact the American economy until those dollars start finding their way back here and inflating the supply of dollars actually here in America, floating around our economy.
How does an economy get rid of unneeded cash? What are the side-effects of their presence and of the process of getting rid of them?
Ann in AZ @ 189
I feel certain that’s what happened. They’ve known for a long time the kind of mayhem and chaos they were going to inflict on the world and they planned it very carefully — not Shrub of course.
scribe @ 300
Yeah, why do Republicans hate America?
QuakerGirl @ 159
Just a thought (I hope you see it) but perhaps just asking one or two of your regulars to back you up, because you need the help. Don’t expect them to hit the ground running immediately, but coach them. Sometimes people don’t step forward, but wait to be asked.