Just shut up already, and let the Senate deal with it:
Matt Stoller: Chuck Hagel called [General Petraeus's] performance “a dirty trick on the American people… It’s not only a dirty trick, but it’s dishonest, it’s hypocritical, it’s dangerous and irresponsible.” Admiral Fallon was reported saying that he thinks Petreaus is ‘an ass-kissing little chickenshit” for the way he sucks up to politicians.’ There are a lot of rumors that David Petraeus wants to run for President. My question is, um, is their criticism a mistake as well?
Wes Clark: Well, I think for Chuck Hagel, who’s a sitting Senator who wants to criticize a General, that’s fine. That’s his right to do so. As far as Admiral Fallon was concerned, if he’s got a personal quarrel with Petraeus, you know, that’s between the two of them. Petraeus works for him, obviously he feels cut out and to some extent I’ve known situations like that, but, um, as for Moveon.org, it was a mistake.
Matt Stoller: But why can a sitting Senator criticize a General and millions of grassroots activists not do that? That’s really what Moveon is, it’s not like it’s an entity.
Wes Clark: Moveon’s an organization, and when it does that it distracts from the dialogue that the Senator’s trying to have.
Or not. You can sign the MoveOn petition:
“I will not be quiet, I will fight back, and I will keep speaking out until Congress forces an exit plan for this awful war.”
Hagel, by the way, voted to condemn MoveOn.
I guess that’s his right. He’s a Senator, after all.
Update: Hello!
“I commend MoveOn for their ad and for speaking truth to power,” said Stark. “Up is not down, the earth is not flat, and the surge is not working. General Petreaus betrayed his own reputation by standing with George Bush in opposition to the timely withdrawal of all of our brave men and women from Iraq. I thank MoveOn for their patriotic ad and call on Petreaus to help Bush end a war the President should have never started.” – California Congressman Pete Stark
Related posts:
- Sorry, National Review: Birther Crazies Aren’t Just “A Few Misguided Souls”
- Conservative Blogger Rick Moran Calls on the Right to Condemn “Crazies”, Sees Racism in Attacks on Obama
- I Wonder What Bart Stupak’s Donors Think About Financing Anti-Abortion Activists?
- Early Morning Swim
- With GM Bankruptcy Closing TN Plant, Will UAW Spend Against Anti-Labor Senators?
Spotlight
Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About Firedoglake
Advanced search
Jane!
Yeah, crazy like a loon alright.
{{{{{{{{{{JANE!!!!!}}}}}}}}}}
“Hagel, by the way, voted to condemn MoveOn.
I guess that’s his right. He’s a Senator, after all.”
Ouch ! That’s gonna leave a mark. (And singles.)
Anyway, signed their petition earlier today.
This video was posted on Youtube in January of 07. It makes the Petraeus/Betrayus link. It seems to have been out there a lot longer than anything Moveon has put out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6G5EZlSnJnU
note to self – say something inane first – *then* read.
Zed? Nope – nice post, Jane. Our elected officials are pathetic.
How does it distract from the dialogue? I don’t get it.
jayt @ 8
“Jane” is not inane!
jayt @ 8
Heh. My personal challenge is to read & say something ane enough for the zed. Doesn’t work at late night, though, that’s for sure ;-)
I *Used* to like Clark. So… only officials can crtisize a general! Congress better pass a law making it illegal for US citizens to critisize officials, especially the pure and noble military!
Signed the petition. Hopefully I’ll give a little dough tomorrow (payday) we’ll have to see after we pay bills.
yeah, but not for us little people to be critical of our betters.
And I’ve already signed the petition and added a little note of contempt for the Senatorial cowards.
raven @ 11
but my zed-claimer would have been.
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 10
How about because we are all babbling on about it instead of talking about the goddamn war? ps, go easy on me, I just popped a few dubloons for Move On.
DC wants citizens to STFU.
selise @ 16
How dare you! Have you ever worn the uniform, like Clark or Hagel?
The right wing’s tactic will backfire. More people are fed up with the war, and by putting Move on and Patreaus in the spotlight, people will feel that move on is onto something..
And I’ve been mispronouncing his name wrong the entire time. I’ve been pronouncing it PayTREE-us. That move-on ad didn’t make sense for a while until I heard his name on television.
If I don’t have the right to criticize the military, then I am not a citizen of the United States of America, where freedom rings.
brendan @ 19
Yea.
Gave MoveOn $100. before seeing the petition. Good on them and to hell with the pols who don’t get it. It is way past time to fight back.
I am SO tired of those lilly-livered cowards that are presumably representing us in congress. Good lord, we have so much work to do!
raven @ 19
raven, I know you’ve taken ration of grief over your stance on this, but wasn’t MoveOn TRYING to talk about the war in that ad, and didn’t they just get slapped, so to speak, by the Senate for it?
The Repugs were gonna attack ANYTHING said other than “Please, Mr. Bush, may I have another.”
The attack on MoveOn is an attack on ALL antiwar speech.
Pachacutec @ 19
Bingo. When they have to listen and pay attention to US, then they can’t play that they are doing the people’s work.
Well, how very special to be told by Wes Clark to STFU.
Perhaps I shall reply in kind, next time I receive one of his unbidden fundraising appeals.
One of them really is no better than another – politicians, that is. Apparently only SOME types of activism are warm and fuzzy enough for the timid Beltway. PATHETIC.
More coal in the firebox of the train to freedom. The picture gets clearer:
Hillary will fight for us.
Wes Clark….not so much.
Jim Webb…still a MI Complex tool; at least now we know who he is. And up until this vote I really thought well of him. No more Senator Webb yer jes another big talkin’ idiot ready to bend over and grab yer ankles for the first ReThug asks ya nice.
Obama…stick a fork in his chickenhawk ass.
We’ll just keep stoking the firebox as the train steams down the tracks headed for a much, much more progressive America.
‘Cause ya know what?
The people are getting the picture now and as long as we occupy Iraq there will be…
No peace at home.
None.
Wes Clark is a brilliant general/person, but a terrible politician. When he says crap like that, I think of Anchorman, the legend of Ron Burgundy, and the quote when his buddy, Champ, gets a little too emotional, and Brian Fantana says, “take it easy, Champ. Why don’t you sit this play out.” Gen. Clark, why don’t you stop pining for the VP and sit a play or two out for awhile. Free Speech is only guaranteed for Congresspersons, now? I mean, do the democrats have any clue?
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 10
Well we just have to remember how easily distracted congresscritters are. It’s not their fault they are distractable, let’s blame the “distraction”.
I hate this and want to start breaking things. But then I’ll have to clean it all up and feel as depressed and angry as I did with unbroken things.
We can talk, talk, talk ’till we turn blue about the war, but actions speak louder than words.
Just from this blog alone, the ad and the censure by the Senate seems to be generating quite a few donations to MoveOn.
That’s money that will be spent to get the progressive message out.
Democrats seem to think they’re giving Republicans enough rope to hang themselves, but so far the Republicans just keep looping it around Democrats’ necks.
I’m tired of it! I’d rather support a group like MoveOn than any of these lily-livered wankers in the House and Senate.
Isn’t nice that the repugs, and some dickhead dems are doing such great PR work for Moveon, A dollar to a donut they get more money now than they would have gotten if they did not run the betrayus ad, which was spot on to me, get down in the dirt with these motherf69king punkilicans.
It’s a total Dixie Chick slime attack.
We’ll all come out the other side of this one, too.
Arrrghhh!! I know the last thread was for being angry and depressed and this is the action thread but I can’t help it. I am so disgusted.
But I do feel better now that I acted. Signed the petition and made a donation to MoveOn. (The phone bill can wait – shhhh)
leinie @ 24
yes, and that’s why I revised my initial reaction to the ad to just that of the headline. I’m over it, FIDO as we say. I was just saying that’s how I perceived the remark about distracting from the dialogue. And knw what, I could be wrong.
I hope MoveOn uses all our money to take on the losers who would not support down time for our troops. Another Betrayal.
petition signed.
My Comment: – ‘One Word – “Primaries”.’
Joe Klein’s Conscience, answer to your question from downstairs re Casey’s office.
First tried the 800 # and only could leave messages, then got through on the 202 line. Staffer asked for my zip & would only say he would pass my comments along, not much reaction unfortunately.
Apparently only the select few who have been properly anointed (and know the secret handshake) can be critical of a lying, self-aggrandizing flack like General Petraeus. They are, of course, by and large to polite too do so. The netroots, ordinary Americans, and the groups they contribute to it goes without saying do not belong to this elite few and should therefore keep a respectful silence.
A.Citizen @ 29
I think you’ve grossly misinterpreted things here. Webb introduced S.759 on Iran, and sponsored yesterday’s amendment. He’s one of the last patriots left standing in the Senate. He votes for the symbolic shit, don’t ask me why — probably personal reasons having to do with his biography, but it’s less important than the substantive stuff. Clark, for all the arrogance of the statement this post illustrates, is one of those people, even if out of power, doing what he can to stop the war in Iran, and he opposed the invasion of Iraq. Hillary Clinton, on the other hand…
raven @ 24
ah, but you’re not a sitting senator, so it doesn’t count.
Pachacutec @ 18
There! typo fixed
Do you want to send a message to congress while signing this?
Yes:
Dear Congress, I’m sending MoveOn all the money I’ve been saving to donate to progressive candidates in close races.
They seem to be more in tune with the way I’d like to be represented. Their agressive, no-nonsense attack on the lies that the administration is spreading makes more sense to me than all the sham legislation that you cannot seem to pass.
Thank you and good night
brendan @ 20
Yeah, that meme’s been a workin’ for decades now. But…
I really think it’s past it’s sell by date now.
Especially, as it is certain, The MeatGrinder turns into a military disaster to equal the strategic and political disaster it already is.
Gonna be interesting to see ‘Yellow Streak’ Webb & Co. explain the ‘Khartoum Event’ next year.
As far as I’m concerned we ought to be looking for candidates who will take the pledge to:
Follow the the laws and regulations in the U.S. Constitution, the whole Constitution, and NOTHING BUT the Constitution.
Well Jane, I think moveon missed ever so slightly with their headline. Their headline became the shiny object, the attached message not so much. But I’m not a moveon member, so my opinion rates for nothing.
I hope moveon continues punching away with abandon. There are so many truly deserving targets.
Hugh @ 38
Fuck That In Spades.
Brisingamen @ 46
The constitution doesn’t have laws and regulations.
It’s got rights, and it spells out how to formulate laws and regulations.
Clark was on The Daily Show last nite. He made similar remarks. Like a typical Beltway type he was pretty clueless about the zeitgeist.
They’re all about a Friedman Unit behind the general population.
MoveOn is right. Jane is right.
Wolf is fixin to have Move On on.
Clark has formerly supported HRC hasn’t he?
OMG! weasel words from gen clark…just got in and see this post damn its sickening and now cnn is talking of this ad
et tu, Wes Clark?
“despicable” — Rethug word of the day, with Fainting Goat Dems chiming in.
CNN covering Moveon now. Exec Dir coming up.
SB_Gypsy @ 42
A-men.
Quoting the actual text, from the Baltimore Sun
“To express the sense of the Senate that General David H. Petraeus, Commanding General, Multi-National Force-Iraq, deserves the full support of the Senate and strongly condemn personal attacks on the honor and integrity of General Petraeus and all members of the United States Armed Forces.”
Where’s Waldo? Can you find the straw man?
answer: “and all members of the United States Armed Forces”
In other words, it implies that criticism of Petraeus is the same as criticism of ALL members of the armed forces. What a crock! The moveOn ad did no such thing as criticise ALL members of the armed forces.
In fact, an excellent analysis of the moveOn ad and the reactions to it comes from moveOn itself, here.
All that said, it’s arguable that the moveOn ad was a double edged sword. Sure it got the attention it intended to; but it also risked, by inflaming the opposition, losing some in the middle who may have some common ground with both the opposition as well as the causes of moveOn.
Here’s my message to the Senate Democrats (and Webb in particular) from the MoveOn petition:
I see all of this as part of the disease of our separate warrior culture that the volunteer military has created over the last 30 years. When every American was part of the fighting force of this nation nobody would dare say nobody has the right to criticize a commander (when not on the battlefield). There were robust protests by the people and investigations by Congress into military leadership failure during WWII.
But now we have a section of Americans who live to serve the military machinery. Anyone not part of that is considered, in essence, a DFH or worse, and openly called traitors by government officials. The military families also show their bias with claims that those who aren’t from military families don’t understand what it’s like.
It makes it all too easy to divide this country into the warriors and the tolerated civilians. Then those who wear, have worn or are using the uniform for political reasons feel secure in telling the rest of us to shut up. But you know what, screw that. The generals serve our needs, or are supposed to. The military fights for our nation, or is supposed to.
We must eliminate the volunteer military to heal this country. Standing armies separate from the average citizen are anti-democratic and poisonous to society.
IrishJim @ 50
Clark has formerly supported HRC hasn’t he?
if you mean “formally” I think the answer is yes.
the democrats in DC have proved themselves to be backstabbers and opportunists. I’m not giving them money ever again. I will not knock on one single door.
state democrats, yes. national dems. no way.
fuck ‘em
WTF!!! senate voted to condemn the moveon ad and…20 dems voted with repugs?!!! i’ll just be goddamned!!
The Republicans are fighting this ad tooth and nail, because General Betrayus wants to run for President someday.
Perhaps he’s a leading candidate for VP and this ad is doing serious damage, all before they even had a chance to roll out their new “Product Patraeus”.
Signed petition. Sent money. Thanks Jane.
Finally got through to Hutchison’s office – hope the busy signal means people like me were calling to complain, not to congratulate her on her votes.
I mentioned both the Boxer and Cornyn amendments, and that I can’t imagine anything any Republican could NOT support in the Boxer amendment. Polite young woman promised to pass on my message this time.
Diane @ 38
I’ve called his office before with not much satisfaction. Why is it that people who answer the phones appear to be completely oblivious to what is going on? Rarely can they ever explain why the Senator or House member voted a certain way.
brendan @ 19
There’s a term for a society where you have to “wear the uniform” before what you say counts.
Military dictatorship.
Just sayin’……
I’ve washed my hands of Clark.
This is great…
Naomi Wolf on Colbert:
http://movies.crooksandliars.com/colbert_wolf.mov
Yeah, I’m disgusted by this. I know there are some fellow Hoosiers here, do you think we could find a decent candidate to run against Bayh in a primary next time he’s up (2010, I believe)?
We might not have a shot in the primaries, but if we could find a good candidate to run on a third party we might actually siphon off enough Republican votes to give him a scare. Republicans only put up token opposition to Bayh so it’s not like too many people are really vested in their candidate.
The United States is based on the Declaration of Independance, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights, which guarantee and memorialize the Founder’s beliefs that the United States is a liberal democracy. The United States is a liberal democracy. Democrats are called liberals by Republicans, which is to mean that the word, “liberal” is pejorative. It is what this country is based on.
Those are the bedrock principles in which to fall back on when confronted with a question like Clark received. Instead of trying to split hairs, say
“MoveOn.org has a right, guaranteed in the First Amendment to the Constitution, to say anything they want (with certain restrictions, such as yelling Fire in a theatre, you know what I mean), and as a citizen of this liberal democracy I live in, I am also guaranteed that right, and I will exercise that right by saying that I do not agree with Moveon.org”
selise @ 42
And, of course, a sitting Senator who’s worn the uniform trumps just a regular sitting Senator. We need to straighten this out and just have all the Senators wear the uniform at the same time they serve. And since politics and parliamentarism are just obstacles to fully serving and protecting us out here who neither wear nor have worn the uniform, let’s just abolish the Senate.
Petraeus will never be able to run for President. Iraq will bury him.
I’m donating $ to Pete Stark. Here’s his website but I don’t see a donate button. Will keep looking since this kind of courage needs to be rewarded.
http://www.house.gov/stark/
jayt @ 58
if you mean “formally” I think the answer is yes.
Doh! Yes.
juslin @ 60
25 Dems — count’em — that’s why MoveOn got a particular amount from me…
puppethead @ 59
Interesting perspective.
I’ve asked this around here a few times but have never gotten any responses, and just heard Randi Rhodes talking about it today (who had on the fantastic Elizabeth de la Vega also), but what are some of things a Senator or Rep can do to throw a wrench in Iran plans?
There’s the whole filibuster thing a la Mike Gravel and Jimmy Stewart, and what’s stopping a Senator from starting a hunger strike on the Floor or something like that? That would certainly raise this issue to the top of the media abyss. What kinds of other things could a Congressperson do? Of course this is assuming that any of them care enough to get this drastic.
Drastic times call for drastic measures. These are drastic times.
chmoore @ 55
Yeah, well, I was a little on that side of the fence at first, but dammit, this compromise and try to keep the “center” happy has just f’in NOT WORKED. Nothing else gets their attention. Ya gotta whack”em over the head with a 2×4 to get their attention first, and that, MoveOn did. I don’t care if we lost some “centrists,” they’re the ones that have given up and turned tail and sold us down the river for all these years.
Said it here before (not that that means anything).
A person gets to be a 4-star general by demonstrating strong political savvy.
A 4-star general is required to make military decisions with an exquisite sense of political ramifications.
Petraeus is fair game for MoveOn.
MoveOn got $100 from me today.
bonkers @ 78
What I really wanna know is, what can I do to throw a wrench in these plans? Cause I can’t trust congress critters, really. I can’t make them do a damn thing they don’t want to do in the necessary timeframe for Iran.
peanutbutter @ 75
But wrong. The classic American mistake of not looking beyond the borders of the USA for experience or examples. Draft-fed armies have often served dictators, and “standing armies separate from the average citizen,” such as Britain’s, have often been no threat.
The Republicans are just mad that MoveOn’s ad is still being talked about long after the dog and pony show in Washington. MoveOn is getting twice the mileage out of this ad thanks to the rubber stamps on capital hill and Bush’s weak comments today. After voting against the Webb amendment and then for the condemnation of the ad, these out of touch legislators are exposing themselves as the fools we all know they are.
Too bad the body or the explanation below the headline of the Petraeus ad did’nt get any discussion in thr MSM much. But then we know which side of the issue they are on.
Redshift @ 56
Ooh, I like that.
Joe at #64: Maybe the people answering the DC Pol’s phones are in Bangalore?
brendan @ 21
Yes. Yes, I have.
Pachacutec @ 18
The chorus of a Don Henley song is running through my head right now:
I will not go quietly.
I will not lie down.
This is MY country and I want it back.
It all is jelousy of MoveOn.Org
Never before has 70K been spent
to such resounding and lasting extent
Solai @ 72
I’m right there with you. I just finished donating $10 to him. The link above is his .gov official site. You can donate to him at his main site: PeteStark.com
I just spotlighted this post, sent Pete money and signed the MoveOn petition using Pete Stark’s direct quote to hopefully shame some of his colleagues for their cowardice.
chmoore @ 55
Yeah, but the polls pretty well show that it didn’t. Nothing is going to turn people who’ve given up on Bush back into war supporters. Nobody but wingnuts believes The Left is a monolith that you either embrace entirely or run to the GOP, so people who were put off by the ad may be less likely to join MoveOn, but it’s not going to change their views.
sunsin @80:
Amen. Puppethead has evidently never hear of Germany or France.
repeat from last thread…. there were two amendments that condemned the moveon ad.
the boxer amendment: S.Amdt. 2947
the cornyn amendment: S.Amdt. 2934
only russ feingold voted against both.
brendan @ 40
I guess you’ve never read any Lakoff. This ’symbolic shit’ is all that really matters in the end. The battlefield progressives and ‘conservatives’ fight on is inside people’s heads. This vote, aside from it’s attempt to stifle free speech, is a major defeat for our side.
Characterising my comment here as arrogant is OK with me. But then you seem to be stuck in the Republican frame which says that criticism of authority is bad.
Right?
When I am in need of some criticism I’ll take it from somebody who knows what they’re talking about, thanks.
I’ve posted many times on my blog in support of Webb’s candidacy and past positions. I’ll just continue to call ‘em as I see ‘em.
Just like MoveOn did.
Thanks.
I watched the debate. It was disgraceful; dems looked like they were doing their best to appease a crying spoiled child by saying their child was to blame. I had to put it on mute.
EPU’d -
Thanks to the people downstairs who responded to my query re. address.
I was hoping someone planned to write a check and thus got such an e-mail which contained an address. Mentioned in an earlier thread today that I conduct no money transactions via the toobz and the only entity to whom I donate who has my e-mail address is the Lake…..and only because of the esteem in which I hold the people who started it.
SB_Gypsy @ 42
My thoughts exactly.
Gee, ya think Gen Clark’s been promised a Cabinet position in a Clinton WH? Nah, couldn’t be..
Sunsin @ 82,
Japan develops standing army, invades countries. Japan’s standing army disbanded, does not invade countries anymore.
Wasn’t Betray-Us appointed to his position by a politician? Wasn’t he confirmed to his position by politicians? As a political appointee, he is fair game. End of story. This is just a try to stir up the defeated GOP base stunt.
A.Citizen @ 90
Me too Webb is full of shit. His past positions huh, like Vietnam was a noble cause?
bg @ 71
That’s the best thing that’s come out of this.
He can kiss his little boy dream of being Commander in Chief buh-bye.
selise @ 89
Thanks Selise. Russ Feingold is one of the few people I truly respect.
sunsin @ 80
Nice cherry-pick. How about South American countries with militaries acting as police forces? Or how about Pakistan’s military, or Turkey’s deciding when and how long civilian governments stay in power? Britain may be a rare example of it working well, but in this country it seems to be increasingly bad for our nation. When even an intelligent Democrat like Wes Clark essentially tells non-military people to shut up, there’s something seriously wrong.
Seems to me that MoveOn should insult another Republican.
They can dish it out but they cannot take it.
How about:
“By the way, outing Valerie Plame was still treason, Cheney, and pardoning Scooter is still obstruction of justice, Bush.”
With say a picture of the Nuremberg war crimes tribunal, you know, something subtle.
Full page, NYT.
tejanarusa @ 78
As Jim Hightower said, “There are only two things in the middle of road: yellow lines and armadillos.”
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 65
As MSNBC’s Chris Matthews said “the add did not kill anyone”.
You have to wonder how this is being used to divide the Democrats. I smell a Turdblossom.
MoveOn guy stuttering on CNN. Little fascist boy is winning the argument with lock-step fuckery.
fascist boy says MoveOn speaks for a “marginalized left-wing group of Americans”.
And Wolfie gives him the last word, natch.
How’s this MoveOn: Bush’s latesPET is General PETraeus
puppethead @ 59
or maybe we don’t need such a big military that sucks up so much of our economic and cultural life?
A.Citzen @91:
Guilty as charged. I’ve never read Lakoff.
Republicans really won the “battlefield…inside people’s heads” with this one. Maybe in your head, but I suspect the battlefied people care about is the literal one in Iraq.
Grouch Potato @ 101
I wish I could afford to give to MoveOn. I was able to speak to Feingold at a MoveOn sponsored conference in Philly. He is truly a shining light.
albert fall @ 102
Nah, it needs to be a TV commercial with an instrumental version “Cool, Considerate Men” from “1776″ as a soundtrack.
Grouch Potato @ 100
and here we see why he deserves our respect.
After watching Wolf with Moveon and the other guy…It is so obvious, that if, as the other guy said, Moveon just represents a marginal, left wing group, why bother paying so much attention to what they think? Why would Congress spend the day condemning them. Boneheads. Moveon hit a nerve – they hit the truth, and that has just exposed everybody.
Kathleen @ 106
Ding ding ding.
Dobson says NO to Fred.
Kiss of death ; )
Get Tough @ 95
Ummm…. Japan has one of the largest military establishments in Asia. That they call it the “Self-Defence Force” doesn’t change that.
It would be better to say, “Japan develops military fed by a universal draft, and military runs wild and promotes reckless aggression, even murdering opposition politicians and business leaders whose sole offense is to point out that it would be easier to sell things to the Chinese if the Japanese weren’t attacking them. Japan is forced to abandon the draft, and does not invade countries any more.” Not exactly a cause and effect relationship, either, but closer to the truth.
albert fall @ 102
I think they’re ahead of you on this one; they’re already insulting Mitch McConnell and Giuliani. *g*
waccamaw-irish jim left you a link at 315 in the last thread……..
Cozumel @ 114
Dobson says NO to Fred.
Kiss of death ; )
awww, I feel just awful for the old boy.
They dont see that by ending the war, we are supporting our troops…by keeping them alive!
Just sent them $100, along with a note to my Senators and Rep saying I was sending my money to an organization that’s working to end the war, rather than wasting it on them.
Since a censure vote is essentially just legislation that doesn’t do anything, maybe all those Democrats just voted for it out of habit.
I can appreciate that the armed forces have a difficult duty, but they sure as heck don’t get a pass on being corrupt or immoral in my book if they act in such a manner just because of their prior service. I don’t like this trend I’m seeing lately of overglorification of the military. I’ve even heard things like “fulfilling their sacred duty”…it could be patriotic in certain circumstances, but it is NOT SACRED to go into impoverished countries with big guns and kill brown people in an unjust war (something our country seems to be making a habit of).
jayt @ 106
Check out this clip of Wolf Blitzer and Norman Finkelstein….years ago
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-8aTGnjHnI
raven:
That he thinks Vietnam was a noble cause is of far less importance than that he thinks Iraq is not, and that Iran is even less so. I attribute this wrongheaded — vile, really — historical perspective to his personal prejudices. I’m a big admirer in spite of his flaws. And I think that the qualities that make hims so admirable and impressive have nothing to do with his military background — though that gives him a certain platform to speak that others wouldn’t have in our culture today.
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 9
They’re just trying to ‘maintain the fiction’ that government works for the people.
All this chatter about accountability and other lofty fables detracts from his provocative dancing until the next scheduled convenient distraction can be readied.
… Shhhh
;>)
SufiLizard @ 122
I thought that too. In addition, most professional politicians hate any kind of controversy, any little bit and run from it. You would have thought MoveOn had insulted God Almighty.
I really think pols lose a great deal of perspective while attending all those cocktail parties.
grrrrrrrrrr dems are really pussies….i’m not about to support none of these fuckers! juslin’s had it up to HERE!!!!!!
Well, I’m pleased to see that my two Senators, Akaka and Inouye, voted against this bit of chicanery! They also voted for the Webb amendment!!! 8-)
Nate @ 87
It would be nice if Stark got a surge of donations. Enough so that it got noticed.
And, I hope KO sees his quote.
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 103
And dead skunks.
—
Signed and donated.
It’s our duty to criticize the people whose salaries we’re paying.
puppethead @ 100
It only takes one example to disprove what has been put forth as a general rule.
And how do you know that a draft would be better? What makes you think that it would not just put more bodies into the service of people who seem increasingly unbalanced? Look how long it took to get out of Vietnam. Frankly, the success of the draft in getting people to turn against that war is nothing to boast about.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I also believe in the history of the US, a draft-fed military is the exception rather than the rule. Were all those years without a draft detrimental to the health of democracy in the US?
There is an odd idea floating around that “service” is by itself pure and purifying. Thus, if you got everyone to “serve,” the situation would somehow improve. But it all depends on what they serve. Far, far better for you to stop fetishizing “serving” and ask just what your contributions are being used for.
I mean, weile renmin fuwu (serve the people) sounded good during the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution in China, but it hasn’t aged well…..
got a link to stark’s press release? would love to highlight it on skippy.
Signed the MoveOn petition. Added my own message; since the instructions say it will be sent to my reps, I worded it a little differently (mine are all Repubs right now, sigh).
I said there was no reason Republicans couldn’t stop the Prez’s destruction of our civil liberties and stop his horrendously wrong war, and asked them to do their constitutional duty.
I must admit to using some words in all caps, in hopes of attracting the attention of the person skimming just to categorize and see which virtual pile to put it in.
And, now, I’ve got to get out of here. FDL is always making me late!!!*g*
As I watched this unfold, I keep thinking about Steve Gilliard and his motto …… “always fight back”
I wish the Democratic party understood this.
My Democratic senator even voted for it and I am embarrassed by his actions (and yes, I called his office about it).
Our other senator is a South Dakota version of Norm Coleman and did as expected …he is a good little Bush protector.
Frank Probst @ 120
Just sent them $100, along with a note to my Senators and Rep saying I was sending my money to an organization that’s working to end the war, rather than wasting it on them.
Which would work even if one can’t afford an actual donation to MoveOn, btw.
Pachacutec @ 114
The ad divided “the Democrats”? They weren’t divided already? The ad just clarified this state of affairs.
A World Without Armies (website)
Demilitarizing, one nation at a time.
Jane
I share your outrage. The D’s are so fucking stupid and played into the R’s trap and the debate is about MoveOn and not the war. Sign me up for any challenges to Ds you help to inspire. Love you
-James Madison,
from Political Observations, April 20, 1795
Get Tough @ 28
So, what are we gonna do when/if Hillary makes him her
bitchVP nominee.brendan @ 110
Which ‘people’ are you talking about?
The citizens of our country are clear on this. ‘Betrayus’ lied. Bush is a proven liar. Google some polls and you will see I am right.
Yes, Republicans won this one because Democrats gave away the opportunity to expose ‘Betrayus’ and that which supports him.
For nothing.
Of course people care about is the real one in Iraq. The question is why are we still there when the vast majority of Americans want us out of there now. The biggest reason is both parties are wholly owned and operated by the MI Complex. Webb was Sec. of Navy. You don’t get to be that unless you are part and parcel of the MI Complex. I thought he’d seen the light. Apparently not he is still their creature.
Read Lakoff he is not perfect but he’s really got some insight into how you must play the political game. If you want to win.
Signed the petition and donated. Take that, Weasel Cornyn.
Laura Doty @ 138
Does it start here by any chance?
Yeah. I’ve come to the conclusion that we have to support the organizations that are fighting to end the war, not the Congress. Concentrate the power and let them have it. More full-page ads with real information that the media won’t cover. Bombard them. USA today is the most read newspaper countrywide, I think. That is one way of getting real truth to the people who aren’t hearing it on Teeveee.
This makes me so mad!!
I met General Clark at a fundraiser for Charlie Brown and thought he actually believed in democracy.
I was dismayed when he endorsed Hillary.
Now, I realize he is one of “them” after all.
Cripes.
And good on Pete Stark!!!
Ann in AZ @ 141
and that does appear to be the plan
sunsin @ 118
Ummm..the whole point was that the United States developed the military complex after WWII, and in doing so propogated the business of war.
Japan did not have a standing army before 1856, developed one in 30 years, fought Russia, won, and then proceeded to build up its military complex to the point that the State Shinto faction overcame the Shrine Shinto faction, and developed their war machine in the midst of WWI, maintaining such into the 30s, and before Pearl Harbor, occupied most of what is considered Asia. The standing army was disbanded in the Constitution, as everyone knows, and was replaced with the “self-defense force”. And for anyone that knows anything about Japan, English translations of Japanese words often are inopposite of their true meaning, almost ironic, if you will, e.g. the Liberal Democratic Party, or LDP, which, except for a brief stint in 1992, has been in power since 1953, the year Japan’s Constitution was ratified. The LDP ain’t liberal, it ain’t democratic, and it ain’t a party, but we like to call it the LDP all the same. Ironically, the “Self-Defense” force is preciously that, and despite Abe’s efforts to the contrary, it looks as though it is going to stay that way. The main opposition party to the LDP has argued successfully that the “Self-Defense Force” must remain as such, and any attempts at building up the military complex otherwise must be avoided, per the Constitution.
The reason: Starting wars is outlawed in the Constitution, and any armed forces outside of the “self-defense” forces, would precipitate a cause for war. So, instead of maintaining a standing army in the United States, why not eliminate, as General/President Eisenhower said, the military complex.
jayt – if you are still here, i left you a reply in a previous thread (on tomorrow’s hearing with jeremy scahill)
I signed the MoveOn petition and made a contribution too. Screw you, gooper thugs.
RonD @ 140
Well, that war stuff sounds pretty good to Bush…you gotta problem with that? ;)
brendan @ 137
That’s closer to the mark I think. Anyone who is surprised by these moveon votes simply hasn’t been following the many senate votes so far.
The Executive Director of MoveOn.org will be on Tucker “Fuc-ker” Carlson tonight. David Schuster is sitting in for Fuc-er.
sunsin @132
Great answer. Praising the draft as something democratic is a perverse argument I’m amazed ostensible liberals get suckered into making at this late date. Your interlocutor needs to get a clue: the draft has always been a Plan B for Iraq.
Elliott @ 149
I thought Joe Biden was auditioning for that role….I guess they’ll have to arm wrestle for it or something.
albert fall @ 102
Nice…
A.Citizen @ 142
Lakoff praised the ad, if I’m not mistaken.
How many phone calls ya think the Rethugs ginned up. Bet those Red State Dem Senators were targeted, bigtime.
just signed the petition and donated $$
nuff said
leinie @ 155
He’s auditioning for Secretary of State.
Elliott @ 149
Vote for Obama.
OT-Cafferty talking about Dubai trying to buy a 20% stake in the NASDAQ.
Prairie Sunshine @ 158
This reminds me of Rove talk, circa October 2006.
I signed the petition. I’ll float them some cash tonight from home.
And I added comments:
With all of the problems going on in this country and that we’ve caused in the rest of the world, the US Senate is worried about an advertisement that ran one day in a newspaper? And this after the defeat of cloture on amendments regarding habeus restoration and troop rest?
I’m ashamed that the one thing that my elected representatives seem to agree with, en masse, is that an average American like me can’t disagree with my government without being scolded. American citizens created the ad and paid for it to be run via an organization created by American citizens.
I watched Senator Chuck Hagel express on a nationally broadcast cable show that he felt that what Petraeus did was dishonest. Why is Senator Hagel’s right to free speech more important than that of the millions of Americans that feel they are being lied to by their president and his general?
When will Senator Hagel, one of my senators from Nebraska, be voting to censure himself? Never, I hope, because it’s the duty of every American to speak out when they feel that their government is doing the wrong thing in their name.
General Wesley Clark has been tiptoeing back out into the public eye he wants to be HRC’s running mate
. Clark was whacked a while back
Link fixed by MOD
In think the thing that pissed them off what the term General Betray Us.
The content was fine… but that play on words did nothing. Even if the ad DID use the word betrayed in it.
Amazing how they dissed 4million MoveOn members as not having the right to opine.
Swift boating is fine…
Destroying Dan Rather.. Yea
And Max Cleland? Crush the bug
This censure vote against Move On is wrong, unfair and another hit on our civil liberties and the constitution. No question. But, I would like to know where in the hell we ever got the idea that our party would stand united on anything. The democrats never have, at least in my memory, and never will. It is a party of extremely diverse positions and ideologies. And that’s okay with me. Sure, they should stand strong on issues like this, but in the political atmosphere we’re in, it ain’t going to happen. Us against them, win at all costs.
The fact is, we would not have control of the house and senate, if it were not for the blue dogs and conservative senators from the more conservative states. These, conservative, senators probably felt they had to vote for this or they could lose their seats. The only thing the democrats can agree on is win at all costs. But, we will never agree on how to do it. Clearly, a losing battle to try to make them.
I think it is a mistake for our party leaders not to reach out, to the republican rank and file, the moderates and to the old school conservative leaders, to find some answers and get something done to stop the damage President Bush has caused. It is not going to happen with name calling and accusations, all the time. Why is it that we are in gridlock?
I believe time is beyond short, we must get beyond the childishness of; “you’re a boo boo head”, “no you’re a boo boo head…”
Pressure the corporate media to stop promoting the politics of division. I think that is what is really dividing our country.
No way we are going to make any real progress in this country until we all accept the fact that everyone else, is not going to agree with everything we want or think. Geez, I often think we do act spoiled little kids. If we don’t get our way we take our marbles and go home.
Get beyond, “us against them” it ain’t working.
Let’s try to identify the real problems, and work toward healing this country, for all of our sakes. Yup, that means republicans too.
Fuck you, General Clark.
That ad spoke for 70% of the American people if I recall..
Well, I wonder if the silver lining in this stupid travesty is that now the Dems can beat Goopers over the head with the same “how can you argue with the military?” when someone in uniform steps up to call BS again on this occupation?
Is this a stupid thing to think?
Elliott @ 144
Right now they are working on Central America. Two nations–Costa Rica and Panama–already are demilitarized. They just sponsored a women’s conference in April to help jump start plans for the other nations of the region. Helping countries figure out–and fund–ways to integrate the military into productive civilian jobs is the key.
Idealistic WRT our own country? No doubt. But change begins with ideas. And ideals.
I just left Ablog – everyone over there is sending in donations to MoveOn.
Great way to reverse the resolution with double our adds back. Be generous – now’s the time to put your $ where your mouth is!
We don’t need a distraction and MoveOn caused one. Now MoveOn’s act has allowed the repugs to make noises.
brendan @ 137
The ad divided “the Democrats”? They weren’t divided already? The ad just clarified this state of affairs.
Spot on. The ad demonstrated that the Dems in Congress are a bunch of triangulating weenies who need increased pressure from MoveOn to keep them honest.
Ann in AZ @ 141
I have always thought HRC would take on General Clark. I also think he would be a great running mate. I really believe General Clark believes in diplomacy. I think he would be a huge asset dealing with Iran and the middle east. He is stepping more lightly about these issues, although he has always pushed for diplomacy with Iraq and Iran.
He did not support the invasion
sunsin @ 132
I don’t believe I was clear. My notion of eliminating the volunteer military does not mean to replace it with a standing drafted military. In my opinion step one of any military action should be to raise the army needed for the fight. That was historically how it happened in this country until the late 20th Century. If our president needs to go to the public to justify the war it’s less likely to happen for dubious reasons.
Our country is too militarized and our permanent soldier families are becoming increasingly separate from the average American. It’s bad for our democracy. We can maintain a big enough fighting force through the National Guard to protect our physical borders, but our military footprint around the world is a legacy of the Cold War and serves corporate interests and the military-industrial complex, not our nation.
At least France was honest about it and named their expeditionary forces the French Foreign Legion. We pretend it’s for our defense.
Swopa’s upstairs
Laura Doty @ 170
and action,
that’s wonderful!
The latest from Swopa in the new thread.
Quiz: Can You Find What Matters In The Pictures Below?
Get Tough @ 148
Have you heard of Major General Smedley Butler? Here’s a great article about him.
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0711-27.htm
He was a WWI General and wrote “War is a Racket.” The business of war has been around a long time.
selise @ 149
He ripped on Washington Journal this morning.
Well , I guess Madison was kind of a wuss, what with all those restrictions on the Executive he wrote into the Constitution…a MAN would’ve just inaugurated a Unitary Executive, and been done with it…
/s
just donated $10.07 to stark. added the .07 to let him know it’s from blogtopia, and yes, i coined that phrase!
be sure to add a message at the bottom of stark’s contribution page, specifically thanking him for standing up for the moveon ad.
Well, I am certainly feeling more unified by the uniter. How ’bout you?
-
While we fight, they rob us blind.
Kathleen @ 174
that’s not how i remember it. he sure seemed pretty excited by the invasion. here’s good analysis from fair.
Here’s my message to the Senate included in the petition:
I’ve had it up to here with your “Sense of the Senate” resolution. I piss on your sense of the Senate.
And I meant it.
Wow, Senator Feinstein’s people don’t like it when you refer to her and her husband as war profiteers. Oh well, at the risk of putting this nation’s most populated state at a disadvantage by unseating a woman who has worked her way up the committee ladder, she’s lost one constituent for good.
I couldn’t get through on Feinstein’s DC line so I went regional (San Fran office) and spoke there.
RonD @ 182
In this day and age, everyone of the Founders would be considered liberals, even those who were Christian and not self-professed deists. When I hear the “republican” argument of “stict constructionists” and “the founders believed…” to bolster their arguments, it makes me want to…
a citizen at 91 says in part-”Characterising my comment here as arrogant is OK with me. But then you seem to be stuck in the Republican frame which says that criticism of authority is bad.
Right?
When I am in need of some criticism I’ll take it from somebody who knows what they’re talking about, thanks.”
whoaaaaaaa buddy……..
i think he meant CLARK’s arrogance, not yours…………..
go back and read it again………..the punctuation defined the comment………wasn’t directed toward you.
jess @ 172
Yea the sound of screeching weasels,
the noises they are making only secure their reputation as blooviating sycophants.
brendan @ 154
You are assuming that I think the draft is right. It can be assumed that I believe if there was not a standing army for the Bushies to use, we would not be in Iraq right now.
puppethead @ 176
Ding!
Re: Pete Stark:
Rep. Pete Stark (D-CA) will give his first-ever public remarks on becoming the first openly nontheistic member of US Congress. Stark, a senior member of the influential Ways & Means Committee, a strong advocate for religious liberty and church-state separation, and a veteran of the US Air Force, will deliver the 15th annual Alexander Lincoln memorial ‘Harvard Humanist of the Year’ lecture. September 20 at 7:30 p.m., Emerson Hall, Room 105.
Done with pleasure. Although the occasion is not pleasurable. I am absolutely furious that Democrats let Reputhuglicans can two crucial pieces of legislation yesterday, and screwed moveon.org the next day. What’s next? The formal swiftboating of all Cindy Sheehan?
I wonder how many moveon.org members some Democrats have in their states. The number is pretty large in CT. And if they think we are dirty hippies and not the base, they are sorely mistaken.
Any time you lose a battle because and only 25 of your allies (out of 51) stay with you, you’ve screwed up somewhere. It’s time to stop denying this tactical error and to start learning from it.
We went into this with advantages in terms of facts, morality, and public opinion. MoveOn had an excellent fact-based ad. But they added the distraction of an ad hominem attack on Petraeus. IMHO he deserves a much harsher attack on his character, but that attack gave the other side a chance to neutralize our advantages and turn the debate into a shouting match where their advantage in terms of shrill editorials and congressmen was decisive. Unless, we were fully prepared for such a battle (e.g., with evidence Petraeus had bedded a dead girl or a live boy), we should never have opened that front for them.
But all that is 20-20 hindsight. It was a tactical error, but MoveOn has my fullest support. They were in their fighting. God bless ‘em.
brendan @ 125
That’s certainly your right. It matters to me.
Get Tough @ 193
Ding! Ding! Ding!
dmac @ 190
Whoops!
My bad.
Don’t, don’t make me listen to McCain! I can’t take it anymore!
Eli Pariser is on Tucker … hosted by Schuster
Brisingamen @ 111
Props to you for reminding me about ‘Cool Considerate Men’ – main lyric of the song is “To the right, ever to the right..” sung by the wonderful Paul Hecht in the original broadway album.
Anyway, on to more important matters. Two things to help keep our sanity after these inexplicable few days:
1) Tomorrow is the Iraq Moratorium. To counter this anti-MoveOn crap, wear a black ribbon or a black arm band on your nice business suit tomorrow. Conventional wisdoms assumes only MoveOn and dirty f#*!ing hippies are against the war. Show your co-workers, your neighbors that anti-war activists are upstanding citizens like you (or that you are a dirty F#&*ing hippie in disguise).
2) Watch Olbermann tonight. He is back – sans appendix, with a special comment, wherein he is expected to take dead aim and verbally piss on the Senate’s MoveOn circle jerk. Go Keith!
Go ahead, liberal loonies. Sign the petition and get your phone tapped and your taxes audited. You will deserve it.
Man, Pete Stark represents a district across the bay from me, but I wish he was our Congressman.
The balls to actually SAY he is an atheist, and now this?
He’s unafraid, I like that…
The “you kids go and play while we grownups fix this” mentality is so ingrained in Washington that even progressive heroes like Gen. Clark are susceptible to it.
MoveOn represents a considerable portion of the electorate. Their mailing list is larger than the constituency of some Senators. They have every right to represent their opinion.
Gary Ruppert –
And YOUR phone isn’t tapped? hahahahahaha What a dunderhead!
Psssstttt! Maybe you got mommy’s phone tapped already! She will put you to bed with no supper!
Shell @ 205
It is not tapped, and even if it was, I have nothing to hide, unlike you hippy terrorists. I am a patriot.
added to the moveon petition:
How dare the US Congress move to censure free speech. What is wrong with you people? Have you no concept of what the US Constitution is; what the US is supposed to stand for; what American values are?
You have the nerve to sit there and sign on that Americans have no business criticizing a political hack General that only serves his political masters and political ambition instead of serving the American people and the soldiers he is supposed to lead. HOW DARE YOU!!!! You are a disgrace to the US, everyone of you that signed on to this crap ‘Sense of the Senate’. I spit on you for the founding fathers that surely would be as disgusted at you as I am.
.
They need to make another ad that tweaks congress.
“We sincerely apologize for ridiculing Petreaus by calling him Betrayus. We really meant to call him His Grand Betrayus.”
Or something to that effect :) Then they could end their ad “We here-by condemn congress.”
:D
Come on, people, use your heads.
Fact: Clark did not say that the MoveOn add should not be allowed, he said it was a bad idea.
An equivalent, or even worse, statement by Hagel is not a bad idea for Democrats, though it might be a bad idea for Hagel. Personally I don’t give a damn what happens to Hagel.
Why was the MoveOn add a bad idea? As Clark (and others) have said, it distracted from the coverage of the actual issues. For example, have you seen Hagel’s statements mentioned even once in the MSM? Of course not. Why? Because all the Beltway types were too busy complaining about MoveOn. The MoveOn add provided the MSM the perfect excuse not to look at Petraeus’ veracity.
Should things be this way? Of course not. But don’t get PO-ed at Clark for trying to work in the real world. (Go ahead and get PO-ed at the Dem Senators who voted for the MoveOn condemnation BS.)
Is this making money for MoveOn? Probably. So what? If they’re just going to play the GOPer game, then I for one don’t want them to have any more resources than they already have. The add was not an unconscionable attack on a serving general–in Petraeus’ case the very idea is laughable, but it was a complete betrayal of everyone who have ever donated to MoveOn in the hopes that the organization would fight for what matters in Iraq: getting the hell out.
For example, have you seen Hagel’s statements mentioned even once in the MSM?
are you serious? Hagel was completely irrelevant before he announced his retirement. now….FEGEDABOWDIT…who cares what he says. certainly not republicans or the MSM…foolish and ridiculous democrats maybe.
.
excellent! Wes Clark has always been a toady. How undemocratic can you get?! He must think that it is an Imperial Senate not a Senate in a democratic republic.
Where is Wayne Morse when we need him? He said loud and clear in our constitutional democracy it is the people who make foreign policy, not the president!
Great idea to come up with response ads:
(1) “We misspoke when we said Petraeus Betrayed us. What we meant to say was that we agree with Admiral Fallon that Petraeus is ‘an ass-kissing little chickenshit’.”
(2) Now that Petraeus has betrayed us the Senate has screwed us.
(3) To the Senate of the United States of America, please read your Constitution. You are betraying the First Amendment.
That the Senate would waste it’s time on such a Resolution is a farce. That 22 Democrats, including my Senator, Diane Feinstein, would vote for the resolution, is disgusting.
I can only quote the final words of Leaflet #4 of White Rose, a non-violent resistance movement in Munich in 1942-43:
“We will not be silent. We are your bad conscience. The White Rose will not leave you in peace.”
And Congress, you can take that “…not leave you in peace” bit to the bank, cuz I’m gonna be on your ass like white on rice.
I’ve already sent my eyeful to Bill Nelson and Mel Martinez. Worthless bastards.
Pachacutec @ 18
So true. This is my first post, but have been lurking for months. I just signed the petition and gave a little too. Thanks to all of you for the education I’ve received here at the lake. Feels good to dip my toes in!
Good God, the arrogance. General Clark is NOT ready for primetime.
We find ourselves in a very dangerous period in our history when the military is worshipped to the point that criticism is vilified by political “leaders.”
Incredible.
Run the clock back 56 years and we find the opposite, when the President (Harry Truman) finally canned MacArthur. The people were enraged and Truman knew his act was political suicide. He did it because it was right. Then we had real honest to God leaders.
I could support this so much more if you weren’t all such a bunch of man hating bitches.
Whatever, I signed the petition.
End the Iraq Occupation. Redeploy the troops.
Unfortunately, MoveOn.org does not allow ex-pats to sign, since—not living in the States—we don’t have a USAian zip code. I wanted to sign, with this comment, but am prevented from doing so (unless I lie and invent a zip code):
Come on, MoveOn! The war affects the entire planet, nor are all USAians are in the USA, so why the hell is the petition restricted to people (who do not want to lie) with a USA zip code!?
Okay, I’m going to run (slightly) against the tide. (MoveOn got my 50 bucks just before they ran the ad.)
First, once this fool amendment was up for a vote, the Dems were in a no-win position. I’m disappointed, but I won’t beat up on any of them for making a judgment as to what would or would not play at home. The ad headline was, after all, over the top. I reserve my fury for Reid, who should have had more sense than to allow the thing onto the floor.
I love it that MoveOn bounced back so quick with those McConnell and Giuliani ads, and got smarter about the tagline (”betrayal of trust” expunges the ambiguity about whether “treason” was implied, and retroactively clarifies the Petraeus headline too.)
I don’t agree with Wes Clark’s take. But he’s not saying Senators have the right to criticize generals, and citizens don’t. He’s talking about tactics, not rights. His claim is just that the Wurlitzer is prepared to overlook the harshness of an assertion by a Senator, which it will not overlook when it comes from a progressive organization. I think he’s right that, given the realities of the playing field, the language of ordinary folks on our side has a finer line to walk between being provocative and being offensive than the language of ordinary folks on their side. He’s wrong in thinking that this means liberals would be wise always to keep well to the tame side of that line, but that’s a matter of poor political instinct on his part, not of disrespect for free speech.
Wow. Talk about cherry picking and using General Clark for pinata de’jour for the day. Did you all read the whole interview? Here let me cherry pick also:
………………..I think you totally misrepresented the whole interview
Wes Clark disagreed with the name calling tactic and he is RIGHT!
TACTICAL ERROR!!! Nothing but Repub CHUM.
Jane this post stinks but I still love ya.
Tinksrival–
How is that any better exactly? He is still saying let the Senators do the heavy lifting, but he ignores the fact that Senate isn’t doing shit other than asking “how high” when the Republicans and the White House tell them they’d better jump.
And, by the way General Clark, fuck you very much, you egotistical aerial-bombing-loving political lightweight. He was Patreaus before Patreaus was cool.
RonD @ 140
Thank you for posting this quote, RonD.