Today I was reading an article in the NYT’s science section, about the possible biological/evolutionary underpinnings of morality, and these two paragraphs jumped out at me:
…Dr. [Jonathan] Haidt combed the literature of anthropology and psychology for ideas about morality throughout the world. He identified five components of morality that were common to most cultures. Some concerned the protection of individuals, others the ties that bind a group together.
Of the moral systems that protect individuals, one is concerned with preventing harm to the person and the other with reciprocity and fairness. Less familiar are the three systems that promote behaviors developed for strengthening the group. These are loyalty to the in-group, respect for authority and hierarchy, and a sense of purity or sanctity.
I was struck by just how perfectly the “individual” moral systems describe progressive values, while the “group” moral systems describe conservative values. Progressives believe in equal opportunity and protecting the rights of the individual against more powerful entities. Conservatives are absolutely loyal to their leaders and frequently use religion to claim the moral high ground.
And yet… and yet… Why is it that the GOP is the party of selfishness and corruption and id incarnate? Shouldn’t they be suppressing their individual egos for the good of the group? I can think of three possible explanations:
1) Their loyalty is to “the in-group,” not to society as a whole. They pledge their allegiance to the Republican party or the conservative movement, not to the United States of America. So they are fiercely loyal to their party, but care not a whit for their country. And the only demands their party makes on them are “Stay in control” and “Get what you can.”
2) While conservative and Republican leaders make a big deal about their religiosity, they use it solely to oppose individual freedoms and camouflage their own moral failings (see Swopa’s previous post). Loyalty and respect for authority are the only group-oriented “values” that they truly possess.
3) Haidt’s “group” moral systems are not actually moral, because they do not consider the morality of the group itself. The Nazis were the perfect embodiment of Haidt’s vision of group morality, and they were evil incarnate. The pro-group values are a measure of unity and efficacy, not morality, and they are less than worthless if not combined with pro-individual values.
Progressives may disagree on a lot, but the core values that we share are those of protecting the little guy, while conservatives are unified in their dedication to protecting the big guy. Progressives want to look out for you; conservatives just want to keep an eye on you.



326 Comments





Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About Firedoglake
Eli!
Eli!
Ann!
2?
Laura!
howdy Eli!
They’ve been informed downstairs; now back to read the post!
Howdy, LL!
Ann, you beat me upstairs ÅND down. Plus, I think I owe you a coke. Hi again Eli!
Eli, love your last paragraph. Boy, do the conservatives ever want to keep an eye on us — in so many ways!
Some argue that liberals or Progressives if you will, somehow took to heart what the New Testament teaches.
LoudounLib @ 10
I had to tie the title and the video together…
There’s also a difference between listening *to* your constituents and listening in on them.
Damn, Eli’s kicking butt around here lately. Nice post.
Thanks, Swopa!
Nicely done, Eli.
I love FDL.
Do we want to give to progressive candidates?
Focus your anger.
Get pissed.
Fight against the mold.
“I was struck by just how perfectly the ‘individual’ moral systems describe progressive values, while the ‘group’ moral systems describe conservative values.”
Herein lies the crux of the problem…! The chasm…!!! 8-)
Thanks, BigMitch!
I do love the Science News…
Jonathan @ 16
Or, as Mr. Tweedy in “Chicken Run” puts it, “Mrs. Tweedy, the chickens is revolting!”
“Less familiar are the three systems that promote behaviors developed for strengthening the group. These are loyalty to the in-group, respect for authority and hierarchy, and a sense of purity or sanctity.”
That reminds me of the authoritarian personality that John Dean describes in his book, Conservatives Without Conscience. Maybe not exactly the same thing, but similar.
Conyers ,Civil Rights, and Civil Liberties Commmittee hearing on C-Span 1 as we speak.
CTuttle @ 17
The ironic part goes both ways. The thing about the “individual” moral values is that they’re about how to treat *other* people, so they promote selflessness rather than selfishness.
Read John Dean’s “Conservatives Without Conscience.”
It looks like 25% of the population is hard-wired to be an authoritarian leader or follower (and in US political terms, Republican).
No coincidentally, look at Bush’s poll numbers.
In effect, if he dips below 25%, he is running negative to his natural starting point.
Toby Wollin @ 19
Right on!
neurophius @ 20
I actually did a quick search to see if Dean referenced Haidt’s research, but I didn’t see anything.
albert fall @ 23
Bingo
albert fall @ 23
Probably because he’s not being authoritarian enough…
I wish John Dean were lurking tonight, maybe he could make a comment!
Hey, Eli! Nicely put, sir.
Hey, Teddy! Thanks!
Of course, I am looking forward to the inevitable conservative hand-wringing about how I compared them to Nazis…
Eli @ 22
True, that’s why greed is a sin…!!! 8-)
I see repukes as simply selfish people. They care first about themselves, next about their family then the organization which brings and protects their wealth.
The philosophy of the party is unfettered free market let me make it and keep it and who needs to worry about the slackers approach to the world.
It is a Moore said they are the me me me people and the progressive seem to be the we approach.
Progessive see society like a ship with a crew.. all jobs are important to get there… some are cooks, some are nvaigators, some helmsman, etc, but all are in it together. Winger see themselves on a cruise ship and everyone working there is to serve them and make their time pleasurable and comfortable.
It’s not too complicated.
Me or We
albert fall @ 23
Alfred, have you seen any current polls on Death Cheney you could also share? Tanks!
John Dean is one of the very few people I look up to these days. Pardon him.
Eli @ 31
Well, after all, that is not an appropriate subject to discuss on this blog…
Eli @ 27
There’s always the 15% or so who follow Coulter, Limbaugh and assorted fauna and believe San Fran should be blown up for being too liberal, and openly advocate for most of the people here to be designated enemy combatants and dealt with accordingly. At least I hope that’s only 15%…
Eli, that’s real interesting!
All “groups” of life that live in herds or flocks, or whatever society, have a hierarchy. The lead male fights its way to the top using force or manipulation. The leader “appears” to lead to the necessities of life, i.e., food and water. Under the leader, are those that are comfortable at their level, because the leader lets them have perks, like eating first or drinking first. The females control procreation – they usually breed with the leaders. Once they have offspring, they sometimes (except in cardinals and swans, who partner for life) reject their partner in favor of raising their offspring, and the power positions change. The most powerful breeding females rule, because they are defending the young, and end up dominating the lead males. In any case, even in bees, they all protect the queen. What does it all mean? Democrats want to protect the “little guy”, Repubs want to fall in line behind the “big guy”, but in order to do that, they need to keep an eye on you, because they are always afraid the little guy will rise up and take their position in the hierarchy. They are always afraid.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 35
But, they didn’t…!!!
I like your post very much, Eli. I think that it might be helpful to distinguish between conservatives and what might be called authoritarians or totalitarians. The latter group being those folks who–whatever their place on the spectrum, seek to control others, both within and without of their group.
The reason I suggest this is, in keeping with LHP’s Sunday post, I hope we can keep a channel open between us progressives and our conservative non-authoritarian brethren, who are more apt to listen to us if they’re not feeling beat up and sneered at.
Not all conservatives are authoritarians–or vice-versa, for that matter!
i think b/c of the onslaught of rightwing media across the land most people have access to only winger opinion thus feeding this authoritarian streak…i dont understand how any reasonable adult would want to be watched 24/7…and willingly give up civil rights….ughhhhhh
SanderO @ 33
Or, as Martin Buber put it, “I and Thou” rather than “I and You”. The GOP/conservatives feel it is ok to betray the trust and beliefs of groups of people for the goal of getting those people to vote for them so that they stay in power and enrich themselves. They are using those people – so to a certain extent, they see them as things – what Buber felt was “I and You”. Liberal/Progressives look for people who have natural affinity for core beliefs that are shared among the group so that the whole group can move foreward – that is what Buber referred to as “I and Thou” – in that everyone looks at everyone else as equally cherished and appreciated.
SanderO @ 33
Well, yeah, that works too. Republicans are exploiters and looters and hypocritical moral scolds.
If all in my party were progressive; what would the world be like?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 44
Quieter??? *g*
Troll trash warning on 45
Laura Doty @ 40
This is true, to a degree. Kirk called me out for a similar generalization about Republicans. Unfortunately, principled Republicans and conservatives seem to be very hard to find these days. But they could just be laying low…
John Dean’s book is based on Bob Altmeyer’s The Authoratarians and it is required reading.
While I have no problem with the structure as posted, I think it also overlooks an important dimension: courage and fear.
It’s hard to deny that conservatism is a philosophy of fear: any change is viewed in terms of its worst possible outcomes, and opposed. Progressivism is a philosophy of courage: risk is seen as a necessary step to a reward.
The tribalism of conservatism is also fear-based: the Other is a threat. Progressivism demonstrates the courage to embrace the Other.
Finally conservative fear leads to disrespect by those in power towards those NOT in power: those not in power cannot be trusted to make decisions, fear suggests their decisions would be disastrous, hence those not in power must be stupid. Conservative fear suggests that those in a position of power must have achieved that power through merit, since the natural superiority of the individual is the only guarantee against the fear that one might make a disastrous mistake – a point of view that matches nicely with the sense of sanctity in the main article.
Progressives, meanwhile, exhibit courage both by showing faith in democratic processes – trusting your neighbor to make good decisions rather than fearing bad ones – and by recognizing their own fallibility, and being willing to consider that they have made mistakes. This makes progressives appear less certain, in direct correlation to the degree that progressives are less self-deluded.
Conservatism is the philosophy of fear: progressivism is the philosophy of courage. Now if only we could get some courageous Democrats to take a stand on progressive issues, maybe we could get somewhere…
Melanie @ 49
John Dean’s book or Bob Altmeyer’s book?
moving on…. the world would be more diplomatic for sure…
Who’s game? Hmmm… Eli? It’s your party!!! 8-)
juslin @ 41
That is probably the single most important factor in everything we are all experiencing. The “afeared” leaders have put in place worker bees, happy to work for there perks, in order to survive, and will sell their souls in order to do so. Thank Goddess, that a lot of that has started to change with the internet, Democracy Now (kudos to Amy Goodman, because she was there first), Olbermann, Stewart, Colbert, and AirAmerica as examples. We’ve come a long way, and I think we are prevailing.
Eli @ 31
Bill Orally rode that one outta the barn; FDL has a lifetime exemption from Godwin’s law now.
Albatross @ 49
I’m sure there’s all kinds of dimensions that can be considered; this was just the one that crossed my transom today.
The fear element also explains the bullying and bluster and endless need to demonstrate toughness through violence and cruelty.
Eli @ 48
They’re likely to feel a tad shy these days! Kindness may bring them ’round!
neurophius @ 46
?
CTuttle @ 52
Eh?
My comment at 46 can be deleted now.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 57
It’s gone, the mods are on the job.
TeddySanFran @ 55
Is TRex gonna use OralB to floss his teeth tonite??? ;-)
As I read this paragraph, I couldn’t help but think about my theory on what’s wrong with the Democrats now. This theory came from the recent FISA vote that caused the Dems to capitulate without even trying to do their job, and ended up giving up our civil liberties even more than before. I couldn’t believe with the slim margins we have in the Congress, that 57 members could atually vote to betray their constituents like that. But my theory is that Dems lack party loyalty, party discipline, and unity of purpose. Until they somehow forge a better bond that includes these three qualities, I’m afraid we better prepare ourselves to lose a lot more. I’m just wondering if there isn’t some magic formula to produce the desire to forge that better bond. I thought it might be anger, with an underlying desire to fix what’s wrong with our political system, but there may be a number of tipping points.
Sorry to leave this promising discussion, but I’m off to the dojo to practice bringing mine attackers into harmony. Peace everyone.
newspaperbrat @ 34
I haven’t seen any recent Cheney polls, but about a year ago I think he was running 11%, just ahead of Satan and just behind the annoying guy in the Burger King mask.
Who’s looking out for you?
That’s easy.
The President.
Laura Doty @ 64
Kick *ss, Ma’am!!!
Ann in AZ @ 62
I really *wanted* to divvy the moral values up between Democratic and Republican, but I just couldn’t. Not without a lot of caveats and qualifiers on the Democratic side. Sad.
neurophius @ 61
*pout* We can hone our skills…!!! 8-(
I would describe myself as Bland-American.
albert fall @ 64
Dude, I want the Burger King as my president. And Subservient Chicken could be his VP.
Eli @ 55
You’re doubtless correct. Another dimension that comes to mind is the role of Projection in the conservative mind. What they fear in themselves, they project onto their opponents and criticize. The all-too-common hypocrisy of anti-gay conservatives being caught in homosexual relations is not so much hypocrisy as self-loathing combined with projection.
In the case of bullying and cruelty, a lot of that is in fact self-loathing and projection being inflicted on some hapless target – can anyone doubt after watching him that the person Bill O’Reilly hates the most is Bill O’Reilly? And Bush’s well-known bellicosity is no less a product of his own realization that, even as President of the United States, he remains an unlettered loser of the first caliber.
CTuttle @ 68
I didn’t even get to see it :’(
OT, but things seem to be heating up for the Alabama AG, who filed the complaint with the justice department that landed a former alabama governor in prison for 7 years. KKKarl was involved…as were two DOJ prosecutors.
twȝk @ 72
Didn’t miss a thing. Just a random piece of nasty behavior.
CTuttle @ 61
My understanding is that Lady Jane gets first swat at BigGiantHead; she was directly insulted, after all. But she was traveling today. The front-pagers are all chomping at the bit, as you can imagine.
Eli, they are like Nazis. They are paranoid and power driven, dellusional, driven by ideology, and will go to “any” lengths, including killing millions of innocent people and justifying it. Bush’s family background is “grounded” in Nazi sympathizing – Prescott Bush. It is what it is. Call it whatever you like. In the 1930’s it was called “Nazism”…now, same thing, different name. Screw sympathizer O’Lielly and his stupid, unwarranted characterization of Jane’s advice to the Dems to not repeat the Republican talking points. Jane is brave. Jane is the antithesis to a Nazi. These people act out of fear, like a very hungry dog (for oil) that is a fear-biter at the same time; it destroys anyone that rivals it.
twȝk @ 73
Dang, I had to stop and ask permission, and, *poof* there it went!!! (Note to self: Don’t mess with the Mods!) *g*
TeddySanFran @ 75
Not me; I suck at the attack stuff.
Great post Eli. Love this part!
Toby Wollin @ 74
ah, glad i missed it then, this topic is more interesting.
LS @ 76
They’re not Nazis, but they’re definitely on the same side of the authoritarian continuum.
TeddySanFran @ 76
That, I’ll put in the bank!!! 8-)
No, but I think it’s actually enough to say that the difference is between the Democratic Progressive’s “we” society and the Republican Conservative’s “me” society. I think that says it all.
Thanks, Betsy!
Eli @ 81
ooo, why is it I have going through my head that bit from “Dune” — “Fear is the mind-killer.”
TexBetsy @ 80
Howdy, Ma’am!!! Is Cassie bogged down with homework?
Eli @ 47
i don’t think there are very many principled politicians in general… but i do think the Rs have really suffered lately because more of their non-authoritarian pols have been rejected or have left the party (see Jeffords).
in our past, authoritarians have lived on the left side of the spectrum too… but now they sure do seem to have piled up on the far right. and the conservatives haven’t organized themselves to reject the ideology of the authoritarians in their midst. i hope they do that…
CTuttle @ 86
Yep. Just look at her facebook mood.
Toby Wollin @ 85
Conservatism is the little-death that brings total obliteration…
LS @ 76
And just think of what the nazis could have done with things like electronic surveillance! I’ll always remember my dear sweet neighbor, died a few years ago, who had concentration camp tattoos on his arm.
I don’t think Democrats should worry about Republican talking point and just say what they think.
TexBetsy @ 89
Hah, That I shall…!!!
I’m sorry, I forgot. What is the War on Terror about?
The starry-eyed (*_*)
Those who spy (@_@)
The money minded ($_$)
The sleepers (=_=)
The core percenters (%_%)
The unseeing (^_^)
The true believers ( _ )
The empty ciphers (0_0)
The evil pounders (#_#)
And the rest (&_&)
A Pictographic Rendition of Republicans Val-yahs. For your viewing pleasure.
Their loyalty isn’t so strong either: Look at the treatment of Craig. Look how Bush’s enablers write “I didn’t do it” tell-alls once they retire.
Litany of Fear *grins* One of the more interesting Dune tidbits i’ve ever known. Useful too, if you’ve the gumption to use it personaly.
thanks to repug rule fear is the mantra…FDR told us the ONLY thing to fear is FEAR itself!! how quickly we’ve forgotten and so here we are…in a word – fucked!!
Everythingseemssoneat @ 93
scaring you
Laura @ 40,
I agree. This area of Ohio is pretty religious, has some of the other things that Ian described, and for many years put great Democratic senators and congressmen in office.
Dayam, She doesn’t mince words…!!!
CTuttle @ 77
Actually, the best advice to self is: don’t mess with the trolls. We only make the moderators’ work harder when we swat. As satisfying as it can seem at the moment, engagement only taxes the mods, whom we adore.
When you’re in the mood to engage them, why not go over to LGF or Malkkkin’s joint and take them on directly? That’ll get yer dander up, the mental midgets will presume a non-existent homefield advantage, and the Lake remains placid.
You know you want to!~
TexBetsy- Who am I supposed to be scared of?
Eli @ 81
Exactly. They are not Nazis. That is an important point, but their behavior is tending that way. That is what I meant. The Nazis, of course, were able to go so much further due to the times and circumstances, and because they did, and we still remember it relatively recently in history; it will be recognized before it ever gets that far, but the tendency to think that way exists within our “leaders”. Personally, I think they are capable of anything, but that is just me.
Everythingseemssoneat @ 93
It’s more like the War On Insufficient Terror.
Everythingseemssoneat @ 102
the Qaeders
David W. Bartoo @ 94
This is really fun. Thanks for doing it.
Laura Doty @ 63
Didja Dojo yet?
Ann in AZ @ 62
on fisa -
but i do think the dems exhibited unity and loyalty – it just wasn’t to us… it was to their idea of what is necessary to win big in 2008.
also, please note, the dems (not all) a didn’t care about the “little guy” or fairness.
Something that always eludes me. If the Bush family had such strong ties to the Nazis (and I believe they did) during the runup to, and perhaps during the last war, why then this seemingly strong bond between the Bush Administration and Israel. I cannot figure it out.
Ann in AZ @ 83
I call “them” The YOYO People: You’re On Your Own. It seems to be their approach to government, climate change, foreign relations, old age, urban affairs, finance, etc.
TeddySanFran @ 101
I found my own little redstater via ICBM url :D
Oklahoma kiddo @ 108
And, just for balance, to the Saudis.
Nationalism seems to be something for all, but I see it as conservative and elitist. I am an American by birth by I have no affinity to a nation which is abusing it’s people, the land and the world at large. I have not a thread of patriotism in me.
I don’t even like the idea of USA as a leader in the world. What an abhorrent notion. First I see much that is exemplary as far as national qualities go. We are the illusion of freedom and human dignity.
David W. Bartoo @ 94
I love those!!!
TexBetsy- Why should I be afraid of the Qaeders?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 108
Expedience? I’d bet good money that all the pro-war, anti-Arab freaks at LGF who love to shout anti-semitism would go through the roof if their daughter or sister dated a Jewish guy.
Thomas H. Huxley
from Quotes of the Day
“Irrationally held truths may be more harmful than reasoned errors.”
Orcinus had an excellent series of posts on the authoritan mindset that some of you may find of interest (if you haven’t already also read it. Starts here: Tunnels and Bridges, Part I: Divide and Conquer (the list of posts can also be found on the left sidebar).
Oklahoma kiddo @ 108
Bush couldn’t care less about Israel. Smoke screen. It’s all a case of who the US can have influence with in the Middle East in terms of balance and keeping other groups off balance.
SanderO @ 113
I love the ideal of what America is supposed to be, but the reality of what it actually *is* just depresses the hell out of me.
TeddySanFran @ 102
Yes, Sir! I’ve dove in to their toxic swamp on occasion, I just hate the noxious ooze that soon emanates from my ‘puter and she gets mighty cranky afterwards…!!! 8-(
ironic that the high-dominance wing of the right wing authoritarian movement uses
as a means of control over their sheeple, but their personal code is much closer to:
“Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law”
no where have we heard that one before?
I must have missed something. What did O’Reilly say?
TexBetsy @ 112
Follow the money. Or, more accurately, that’s what the Bushies do. War profiteering.
well.. assuming shrub is following the Orwellian model, you’re supposed to scared for scared’s sake.. of anyone and everybody: your neighbors, anything or anybody different, change, the financial markets, AQ, faceless terrorists, Mexicans who want to steal your job and health insurance and, of course, you’re supposed to be scared of your government. Bushworld is about fear… nonspecific, all-pervasive, media-hyped fear.
Everythingseemssoneat @ 115
because fox news said you should
Eli @ 120
I agree completely.
Okie,
I don’t think the Israelis hold long grudges and are pragmatists in the sense that they can use America to get what they want. Bush is not spouting antisemitism.. is anything it is anti Arab rhetoric.. the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
The Bush family Nazi connection is hardly a well know fact and not something the MSM is going to expose to the light anyway
sporkovat @ 123
Well that’s sort of selective, isn’t it? The entire thing is: An it harm none, do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
Toby Wollin @ 119
And the whole “Bush Family banking with the Nazis” thin was strictly business. Shoot, I come from the area where IBM started and IBM not only had an office in Berlin from way before WWII, they also designed the punch card system that the Nazis used to take down information about all the people they were rounding up and sending to the death camps. That has been documented and is something that the Watson family tried to suppress for years.
Eli, this is one of those posts that demands time to settle. I’ve been chewing on that NYT article, and then went to play around in the moral foundations questionnaire at “YourMorals.org” website that the article pointed to.
I’ve only worked through two of their sections, but noticed one very interesting piece of data: at the time I took it, 212 self-identified liberals had done so, but only 28 conservatives.
Hmmm . . . is it because conservatives already know what is moral, and don’t have any curiousity about exploring what is and isn’t moral? Is it that they know what is moral and don’t care what anyone else thinks? It is because conservatives don’t read the science section of the NYT?
Like I said — lots to chew on here. Thanks for bringing it up!
i think this one can go either way (belong to conservatives and progressives).
the issue is – how big is your in-group?
do we work to extend it to include… well, everyone?
or are we content for our in-group to include just our small circle?
if our goal is a large in-group, that, i think, is progressive.
if we like having a small in-group and exclude the rest of humanity… well, i want nothing to do with it.
….
really interesting idea eli, thanks!
Peterr @ 131
Yes.
Ann in AZ @ 62
You’re assuming just because they say they’re Dems that they really are. How bout the possibility that they really are not progressives or liberals in hardly any way, and it’s just that the distinctions between the two Parties have been so blurred by purposeful media manipulation over the last few decades?
Personally, I think Russ Feingold should be considered a “centrist” Dem. If things were looked at in this way, distinguishing between Dems and Repubes would be much easier.
Almost makes one want to think this was all done on purpose, huh? Hmmm…..
If they are sanctified by group membership, then perhaps it doesn’t matter what they do as long as they don’t get caught?
I don’t get the disconnect between group loyalty and the personal ethics, either, but there you go.
It’s bidness…
Rove cynically exploited the religious rights for the votes and hatred of gays etc to get their votes.
What he and his bids wanted was our tax money in their corporate accounts and investment portfolios. The social security thingy was pretty blatant about that.
Let’s privatize!!!!!!!!!!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 57
Double ??
Peterr Yes to all the questions
This is what we’re supposed to be fearful of:
http://www.newspeakdictionary……tein_1.jpg
Emmanuel Goldstein….
TexBetsy- How can a citizen express their fear?
Great catch Eli.
hmmm loyalty to the in-group…doesn’t this describe the occupiers in the WH at this time?? or am i late to this point? seems to fit them to a T
selise @ 132
Thanks!
Again, I’m not convinced that loyalty is actually a moral virtue. Not unless the group itself is moral, and even then the morality stems from advancing the moral goals of the group, rather than mere membership in it.
Conservative hate science because they can’t underpin their greed with it and because science is a pursuit of knowledge for all mankind’s benefit… not just for them.
Loo Hoo. @ 137
Nope, I’m now the Troll!!! ;-)
juslin @ 142
Well, yeah. Loyalty is their most sacred value; integrity and competence aren’t even in the running.
tryggth @ 141
And to increase my crackpot index by quoting/replying to myself. There are stronger points of conflicts across that division than within it.
Loyalty has the notion of blind obedience… be careful of that attribute.
bonkers @ 134
I agree with that! Just look at the Moderate Republicans a.k.a the DLCers.
selise @ 132
Someone mentioned Dune already . . . this brings to mind Orson Scott Card’s hierarchy of alienness in his SF Speaker for the Dead.
LS @ 76
I love you, LS.
tryggth @ 147
Can you elaborate on that?
TexBetsy @ 112
I’ve wondered that. Consider this; if they eg- on the Isra*lis to attack Syria and Iran for real, Isra*el will get it bigtime. That opens up the neocon’s to control the M.E., without the I/P “problem” (their problem, not something I advocate obviously). The neocons, with their Saudi friends (who hate Isra*el), could then control the M.E. oil and get rid of the meddlesome “problem” of the I/P situation (Bush has done virtually nothing to work on peace there). Honestly, I don’t think the Bush administration has any good intentions regarding Isra*el. They have used sympathizers to achieve their agenda (Feith, Wolfowitz, Ledeen, etc.). No. They are thinking of something past that. I am cynical, but I think that Isra*el getting involved and trusting the “axis of evil” narrative is almost suicidal. That makes this “cabal” similar to the rulers of Germany during the 1930’s and 1940’s. Sorry to be so blunt, but I worry that Isra*el is being used.
Hi CTroll.
Sadly I see dems are quite disorganized, absent a vision of equity, equality and justice for all.
I’m not the least bit thrilled by the dems.
But the republicans are revolting.
Peterr @ 150
Howza’bout Orwell’s “Group-Think”???
For many on the right CONSCIENCE is not a very useful thing because it has science in it.
But seriously, I fear the essential ethos of BOTH political parties today extant assumes that they have perpetual tenure, as immortal beings.
Not unlike corporate ‘persons.’
TeddySanFran @ 110
Yup! I think you got that right!
BigMitch @ 21
With the sound off, you can identify republics by the size of the “hood ornament” they wear in their suit lapels.
If you could get the dims to agree on *something*, I wish it would be to outlaw the wearing of same for members of their party. That would make ID even easier. ;-)
Eli, SanderO
Thanks for the short answers to simple question above.
LS @ 153
Also, don’t the Jews have to be in Israel for the Rapture to occur?
TexBetsy @ 154
Ya like it! My new Nome de Plume…!!! *g*
LS… it’s all about oil and controlling the region eh?
CTuttle @ 162
Nome de Plume is pretty much taken.
Our owners a supposed to be more conscientious.
TexBetsy @ 164
How about Gnome de Plume?
TexBetsy @ 164
Nope — that’s Gnome de Plume.
Eli @ 166
DEFINITELY taken
SanderO @ 144
Not even their Dismal Science, Economics, works. Taxcuts do not produce more government revenue, no matter how many times a GOP sez it’s so.
If you want to win the pennant you have to be able to beat Toronto.
“You’re assuming just because they say they’re Dems that they really are.”
Heck, even Joe Lieberman is claiming to be a Democrat (again) now.
Toby at 50,
Altmeyer’s.
TexBetsy @ 164
I could use it over at LGF, they’d never figure it out!!! ;-)
David W. Bartoo @ 157
One of the reasons we will never see radical campaign finance or gerrymandering reform (i.e., viable public financing) is that incumbents are dedicated to preserving their incumbency above all else.
This is a thoughtful bunch of slackers no?
SanderO @ 163
Of course it is.
Eli: I’m going to go with your #1 explanation.
I think Republicans think of their party as a corporation, constantly watching the bottom line and cutting off any waste as they climb. They are loyal only to that bottom line. They don’t care if you have been with the company for 30 years, or in the party, (think Larry Craig)when your time is up, it’s up.
peanutbutter @ 129
The first version is the one Aleister Crowley was partial to. The second is the one propagated by Gardnerians and whatnot. *grins*
Just like any other type of self rule, the interpretation changes with each group and leader and person. Historically Crowley wasn’t such a good guy either, and that interpretation pretty much seals it.
My latest rant is term limits… serve one term or two and that’s it… there’s plenty of talent in the country.
Quosh incumbancy. Now and forever.
selise @ 109
But how can that (what I’ve bolded) be? The polls all say just the opposite. People want to be protected, but they don’t want to be spied on. I just don’t believe that. The people have already affirmed that they want oversight and believe that Dems need to smack this president down a peg or two, to prove to him that he cannot continue to break the laws. When they capitulated on FISA, even the MSM called them on it. How do you reconcile that? I can’t even rationalize it.
Jonathan @ 16
just a leetle teensy cultural difference for moy.
in Aust angry is pissed off
pissed is drunk.
SanderO @ 179
Something to be said for experience. What about 12 yrs tops?
BigMitch @ 170
:P Aarghhh!!!
this has been another enlightening heavy day… time to clean up the kitchen…hope to bbl but prob just lurk awhile and read posts and comments..bon nuit pups ;o)
selise @ 132
We all know the answer to this if we attended high school.
Ann in AZ @ 180
The two great American myths:
1) Democrats are committed to winning elections above all other considerations.
2) The news media is obsessed with profits and ratings above all other considerations.
Nothing to be said for experience… I would sooner trust many of the posters on FDL with their lack of experience than the creeps who stick around in DC.
juslin @ 184
Nite, Ma’am!
Nice post, Eli!
Where are the [Anthropology] “doctors” when you need them?
Anyway, here’s my take, using a slight reframing.
The “individual” moral system is typical of frontier societies and low population density systems. The “Respect for authority and hierarchy” alternative becomes more common in high density systems– you can see this even in baboon troops.
The “sense of purity or sanctity” group is not just societies with organized religions, but can also be seen in some frontier groups where purity & sanctity are ways of identifying in-group folks from others. The first examples that occur to me are purity requirements imposed on women (e.g. Taliban in Afghanistan).
The “loyalty to an in-group” reminds me of a number of social systems. I’m thinking, for example, of frontier America, where it was very important to belong to one of the local churches, because otherwise one had little or no social support. A classic example is the Mayflower compact and its role among the pilgrim settlers, and the distinction that quickly developed between the Plymouth Colony and the other First Comer encampments. I’m trying to think about what other in-groups might be illustrative.
Bob in HI
See you later juslin
Term limits will solve many problems like campaign finance and expensive elections. One term for senate.. 2 terms for congress critters. 10 yrs for supremes.
One term for president.
We’d be a lot better off.
SanderO @ 191
I agree.
BigMitch @ 21
Thanks!
I missed the “theatrics” that they’re now referring to. What happened?
Bob in HI
SanderO @ 187
One of the interesting things that the blogosphere has done is expose the worthlessness of credentials.
Yes, there are excellent liberal bloggers who have credentials (and lousy ones who don’t), but it is amazing how many uncredentialed bloggers there are who run rings around professional journalists, politicians, and consultants.
I don’t belong to anything… nothing whatsoever.
SanderO @ 187
As Obama likes to point out…no one has a more impressive resume in Warshington as Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfelled.
LS @ 192
I think I might agree.
SanderO @ 195
The human race?
Bob in HI
bonkers @ 196
Thank you. Now I am convinced.
bobschacht @ 189
Interesting context, Bob – thanks! I think that makes it pretty clear that these are social strategies that have been retroactively defined as moral virtues.
Oh Yes Eli @ 194… you don’t need government experience. Jane Hamsher is smart as whip. Imagine Redd as AG or some of the other geniuses here with no experience making leadership decisions in this nation? Just our headliners alone could be a great cabinet.
SanderO @ 195
I belong to many things. I’m definitely a joiner. Big on community.
SanderO @ 191
Unfortunately this would probably give rise to another example fo the law of Unintended side consequences. If there were no institutional memory as evidenced by long term incumbents, the power would come to reside with the lobbyists (who would not be going away) and the staff and bureaucracies.
So let’s go with the currently available “term limits” mechanism called elections.
ooo, why is it I have going through my head that bit from “Dune” — “Fear is the mind-killer.”eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeli
Nice post, I have used that mantra in my life from time to time to bring down the prison bars fear creates.
A question..does the fact that democrats are courting the same money sources as the repugs have anything to do with their less than courageous actions, as labor as a force is disappearing, once the bedrock of the democratic base.
SanderO @ 201
With TRex as secretary of ….. ?
Everythingseemssoneat @ 115
They’re not bland?
Good night. Loo Hoo.
lahoma
SanderO @ 201
I’m probably not the best example, but I can assure you that my background in no way qualifies me to be any kind of journalist or social/political commentator.
TexBetsy @ 197
I don’t particularly agree. If the campaign finance isn’t reformed, then all that will happen is simply that successors will be chosen by the ones paying plenty of money. And the successors, lacking experience, will be even more beholden to the money that got them in there in the first place.
The other scenario is that the politicos themselves agree on the rotation.
What you really need is the ability for anyone, not just the filthy rich or those able to attract the filthy rich donations, to run for office, and to give all those running for office an equal start with public campaign money and equal media time.
Dak…
I think there should be a law against for profit corporations and industries lobbying congress.
This needs to be enforced. We have become a government for industry. That was not the intention of our founding parents.
SanderO @ 191
Two terms for the Prez and Senate, 3 for Reps and ten years for the supremes would be sufficient!!!
dakine01 @ 203
You could introduce the State of California as Exhibit A. The Lobbyists OWN Sacramento, and the politicians of every stripe know it.
Maddy @ 204
I think so, and have posted on it a few times. I think the DLC is basically a front organization that allows Democrats to take corporate money and do corporate bidding, under the fig leaf of “centrism”.
“No, no, we haven’t sold out! It’s STRATEGY!”
Peterr @ 212
Exactly.
Eli @ 208
Well, obviously you can think and reason and that qualifies you a lot more than anyone in DC now. And I always enjoy your posts very much. Think you are pretty darn smart.
Trex…
He can take HHS.
Elections are corrupt. We need have plenty of talent and institutional memory around, and senate elections are staggered.
We have been failed by the elections system we have.
Peterr @ 212
That’s my understanding and the example I was thinking of.
Twain @ 215
Aw, shucks. Thank you very much.
Ann in AZ @ 180
not saying it’s true… just that it was their calculation.
come november, 2008, the more pissed off at bush we are, the bigger the gains for the Ds.
if, on the other hand, the Ds in congress are able to constrain bush and end the iraq occupation (or even impeach), then come november, 2008, there won’t be any bush to aggravate americans into giving the Ds such a big win.
… course, they don’t want us more pissed off at them than we are at bush… so we might be able to convince them to take some real action (just want to be clear that i don’t think the situation is hopeless)
TexBetsy @ 205
Why, the Department of ATTACK, of course! (Certainly not Department of Defense for TRex)
SanderO @ 216
Is there a Secretary Of Disco? ‘Cuz I’ll be happy to take that.
Peterr @ 220
Perfect!
Lobbying is a perversion of what it should be, what it once was.
This is dangerous and has ruined the nation, along with the rise of the corporation.
Hey then – I want Secretary of New Wave/Euro Trash! :)
unconventional conventionist @ 224
You might have to fight my girlfriend for it.
Great post…the last two lines of the post would be great in an ad.
dakine01 @ 203
Eli @ 225
YOU have a girlfriend? Is it serious? Shall I be crushed?!?!
CTuttle @ 145
Now you really need to move to Nova Scotia, where all that fur comes in handy.
Lakers… you can solve the nation’s problems. I have complete confidence in you.
I’m off to bed.
Fight on!
Peterr @ 220
How about Secretary of Snark ? We could use more of that in D.C., no?
SanderO @ 230
sleep well
ok kiddo at 109 says-”Something that always eludes me. If the Bush family had such strong ties to the Nazis (and I believe they did) during the runup to, and perhaps during the last war, why then this seemingly strong bond between the Bush Administration and Israel. I cannot figure it out.”
ok kiddo, once again you are confusing politics and money with philosophy……….ain’t no confusion there when you look at it right.
TexBetsy @ 229
‘Fraid so.
Um, why do you sound so surprised?
GordonM @ 228
I love Nova Scotia!!! Petite Riviere.
I want emptywheel on the supreme court.
SanderO @ 223
Exclude K Street by public financing of all elections and prohibit lobbying on federal property…!!!
Eli @ 234
Actually I figured you were married.
I am in an odd mood. We can blame it on a medication change I started today.
SanderO @ 223
When we get together with some of our friends, and we sent some of us to talk to Congress, that’s citizen participation.
When they get together with some of their friends, and they send some of them to talk to Congress, that’s special interest lobbying.
Of course, “they” say exactly the same thing about us, which begs the question: What’s the difference between citizen participation and lobbying?
GordonM @ 228
Dang, everyone’s a critic…!!! 8-)
CTuttle @ 237
Just rename K Street Liberal Lane and they’ll all leave.
Peterr @ 239
Oh I dunno. A thousand here, a thousand there…
Maybe another way to even the field would be to abolish all campaign financing entirely, money would come from taxes and airtime for all would be provided free and only six months would be permitted for campaigning for prez and a similar time for other offices and anyone who would circumvent this would be automatically disqualified..what do you think.
Boy I screwed that up@227 but you get the gist.
We have been upset because of comments of Rick Noriega since we contributed small donations to his campaign. Imagine how pissed off we would have been if we each gave him $5,000?
The whole thing just doesn’t seem right.
LS @ 235
Cape Breton is awesome scenery, and the International Gathering of the Clans is a must see opportunity in Pugwash, NS!!! 8-)
Peterr @ 239
Amateur versus professional.
No one who earns a salary for lobbying should be allowed direct contact with Congress, ever. Only citizens. Corporations should not be allowed to write bills, advise lawmakers, or pay for their trips or buy them presents. There simply shouldn’t be any professional lobbyists. Congresscritters can keep in touch with their constituents by traveling or by the toobz.
Make professional lobbying illegal.
who on FDL front page has dealt with the Noriega issue?
CTuttle @ 245
What are you talking about?
CTuttle @ 245
Do trolls have a clan?
Regarding the biological underpinnings of morality, I would also refer you to Robert D. Hare’s works. http://hare.org/
He wrote ‘Without Conscience’, which details the variances of the degrees of the emotions of conscience individuals have within our population as a whole. He has been working on psychopathology for a quarter century and devised a test held as expert testimony in courts of law for some time now. He has gone on to write other books as well.
Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., in his last book, ‘A Man Without A Country’, devoted a chapter to Psychopathic Personalities (’PP’s for short) as he found the phenomenon so signicantly consequential to our general social and cultural life.
John Dean was likewise inspired in his relatively recent ‘Conservatives Without Conscience’…
…Y’know, genetically speaking, one pattern’s as legitimate as another, sad to say. But evolution itself is another matter, and it’s a funny thing…
Hare’s work helped me understand the greater possibilities there are that may explain some of the more perplexing behaviorial strains in society when I really needed just such clues, and so he means a lot to me. I hope I’m not giving his work more weight than I ought, but I don’t think so. (It works for me…)
John Farwell
OKC, OK
TeddySanFran @ 246
That sounds good. What loopholes are we missing?
selise @ 219
Well, we really need some leverage against the Blue Dog Dems that were a large part of the problem with FISA. Therefore, I hope you’re right about them not wanting us mad at them. But I can’t imagine that someone like Jim Webb or Claire McCaskill would use such fuzzy logic that they would give up some soldier’s life just so that Dems here would continue to have an issue to get pissed about. And I doubt they’ll be intimidated by the chance that we’ll get too mad at them and they’ll lose their office. I seriously wonder how much the fact that they all had expected a vacation break and had plans and were confronted by this at the last minute.
TexBetsy @ 247
I expect this will be a BlueAmerica issue to be brought here by Howie Klein. I imagine Howie’s on it, although I have no firsthand knowledge of that.
Twain @ 249
Tree fort.
Nighters, Lahoma. I love your name. And I love the principled stands you and OKK have. Good work for America.
Get Tough @ 248
Not the Klan, the Clans; Caber-tossing, Tartans, and Bag-pipes!!! Yee-Haw!!!
TexBetsy @ 251
Don’t allow lobbyists and congressmembers to play golf together.
TexBetsy @ 238
Hi Betsy, hope the new meds are helpful…
CTuttle @ 256
Again, what the hell are you talking about?
PeterK @ 258
We’re just aiming for equally helpful but at 1/4 the price.
Hope someone is taking notes.
Sounds like a compelling and likely very popular ‘platform’ being erected here.
Eli, you inspired some profound and progressive thinking this evening, although that is kind of a habit of yours.
Get Tough @ 259
Here, have a looksy…
http://www.igc2007.ca/details/…..sYear=2007
CTuttle @ 262
What?
TeddySanFran @ 246
[snip]
Not so sure about this. What about, for instance, MoveOn. They lobby and at least some of them get paid for it.
CTuttle @ 256
I just love bag pipes.
My union has lobbyists. Met some of them in Chicago.
TexBetsy @ 247
TeddySanFran @ 253
I would think so too. Howie brought Noriega back to FDL on a Blue America thread on Sept 10 to talk about the blogger comments at the broadcasters convention, but that was before the campaign contribution stuff hit the news.
Iraq, Habeas Corpus, and other broader stories like the nomination of a new attorney general have been the big front page stories here in the last couple of days.
TexBetsy @ 251
Exceptional access by the MSM.
David W. Bartoo @ 261
It is? Excellent!
Kucinich is looking out for us but only the people are listening to him, not congress and they are not listening to 70% of the Amercan public.
We know these cops were not looking out for this students rights.
This is the best tape that I have seen
http://www.informationclearing…..e18418.htm
Amazing the cops tasered him after they had him down on the ground and he had begged “don’t taser me bro”.
Sure obvious the Florida Cops were not looking out for this students rights
Is Darkblack around tonight?
TexBetsy @ 266
That was a very nice union barbeque in Chicago. Food was excellent & plentiful.
ccmask @ 265
Skirling Bag-Pipes are certainly a thang to behold, stirs the blood…!!! ;-)
ccmask @ 272
Different union.
PeterK @ 264
It also would have the effect of making the so-called “idle rich” the only full time lobbyists. They could afford to work fulltime at petitioning Congress while living off their wealth, while ordinary folk could only do so in their off hours, when they take vacation time off of work, or make similar sacrifices.
ccmask @ 244
Yeah, I made that point somewhere earlier today, too.
TexBetsy @ 266
Right, another good example. I don’t think this question is so simple. Legislation is very complicated, and having someone stand up effectively for good legislation takes a lot of time and dedication, much more than most of us can afford. So lobbyists can do good things for us.
bobschacht @ 189
You’re beyond frontier groups there. That’s competitive behavior.
But the Mayflower group came out of Holland (too permissive) and England (persecuted). That’s an attitude they imported from a very different milieu.
I would say the individual system is prevalent not only in frontier groups, but anywhere that Mother Nature is a real and persistent threat (most Northern cultures). Fishermen are famous for this – you may hate the guy, but you’ll rescue him.
If this planet was threatened by an alien species, we’d unite in a split second. But most of mankind needs a threat simply to get out of bed in the morning (or, more importantly, to avoid considering their own personal problems). So they become the problem. Whatever your definition of they is (people with 3 letter names that begin with E? Why not?).
So move back to NS, CT, and your paranoia will be gone in an instant ;-).
finifinito @ 271
(((fini))) DB was on an earlier thread…!!! Any slugs for the Juke-box?
PeterK @ 264
Yeah. I think the issue is on what the politicians accept. Which should be nothing.
TexBetsy @ 274
Never mind *in my gilda radner voice*
CTuttle @ 279
What??
GordonM @ 278
I wish I could still believe that. More likely the Republicans would try to convince everyone that Democrats were all alien sympathizers and had to be locked up for the world’s safety.
Ann in AZ @ 252
i’ve thought alot about what happened wrt FISA in the house, not so much in senate…
and yeah, i agree that there’s a bunch of Ds in congress that aren’t so craven. but i definately think the house leadership is that craven… and here’s why.
peanutbutter @ 280
Good point! But would you make an exception for certain sandwiches?? :-)
CTuttle @ 279
What kind of slugs? 30 ought 6?
CTuttle @ 273
and strikes fear into your enemies’ hearts
CTuttle @ 279
Here’s a song by Kip Adotta
PeterK @ 264
Oh, they could march around the Capitol, and go to hearings, and have die-ins, and wear pink, but no one-on-one meetings. Congressmen simply cannot be trusted alone with lobbyists.
Or maybe there could be “citizen association lobbyists” so I could pay MoveOn (as I do now) to lobby on my behalf, but company membership associations couldn’t have lobbyists. Of course, I’d like to get rid of companies too, so don’t get me started…
GordonM @ 278
The Puritans were too restrictive, GM, they were persecuted in England for their intolerance… Hawaii, was the recipient of their intolerance, they banned the hula and the Hawaiian language for generations…!!! 8-(
selise @ 284
I don’t think you can put Steny Hoyer among the craven Democrats. The craven Republicans maybe . . . *g*
I’m writing a book about why conservatism is dangerous for America. I look at the differences in liberal/conservative thinking and what in our makeup causes us to align with one position or the other. I’ve drawn on the work of Dr. Lakoff, Dr. Altemeyer, Thom Hartmann’s Hunter/Farmer theory and a number of peer-reviewed scientific papers, and I believe there is a strong argument that whether you are predominantly liberal or conservative is partially a matter of genetics, having to do with the different survival traits of hunter/gatherer societies and the later agricultural societies.
Our society is a farmer society, and we are so conditioned by our society to do as we are told that our ‘resistance muscles’ have atrophied. We need both kinds in our society to make it work, but where we get into trouble (and where we are now) is when we are confronted with a bad or criminal leadership. The farmer mentality, while necessary for society to work, makes it very difficult to challenge authority, and unfortunately, that is what we so desperately need right now.
TeddySanFran @ 289
Your in good company :D
finifinito @ 286
That ought to do the trick…!!! ;-)
Alicia @ 292
I don’t understand your point. What is the farmer mentality?
PeterK @ 285
Hmmm…haven’t some of those been the downfall of nations? :-D
Alicia @ 292
So is there a reason that aggression and amorality seem to go hand-in-hand?
I think it was the same union, TexB. Teamsters!
What ??
More charges dropped in the Haditha case.
http://www.nytimes.com/aponlin…..ref=slogin
I think that just leaves the ones for littering.
CTuttle @ 290
I was certainly not defending them – just pointing out that their behavior wasn’t frontier. They imported it. Like all the colonies, they brought contemporary European thinking and behavior to the new world. And learned damned near nothing from the experience.
twȝk @ 293
Careful there, Teddy, when you say you want to get rid of companies.
If you want to snail-mail something to FDL, it says up there at the top of the righthand sidebar to address it to “The Fire Dog Lake Company.”
;)
Loo Hoo. @ 298
Teamsters includes NEA/AFT?
Let’s Get Tanked?!? Oh man. You’re on probation man. Wow! Oy to the vey to the vey to the oy!
GordonM @ 301
Because of their intolerance…!!!
Peterr @ 302
Kobe draws a salary, but it’s strictly for tax purposes.
Hugh @ 291
oh, don’t i wish.
thank you for the good laugh!
Alicia @ 292
Alicia, that is dangerously close to implying that farmers are not sophisticated enough to engage in matters of the state, or critical reasoning. The most famous US farmer I can think of, Thomas Jefferson, didn’t have a problem with questioning authority, or any lack of sophistication. True, the middle “Red” States tend to vote Republican, but only so because Republicans before the Bushies meant Ford Republicans; First Term Reagan Republicans. They will continue to vote Republican because of the basic tenants of Republicanism: states’ rights, lessor taxes and small business rights. Now, we all know at the Lake that lessor taxes only means the 1 percenters to the Bushies, but you cannot fault the Red state farmers for voting Republican, nonetheless. It’s the same as any critical minded Democrat continuing to vote Democratic even if HRC is in the WH.
@ 62
Ann,
“Dems lack party loyalty, party discipline, and unity of purpose”
and maybe if they did the hat trick, they’d be neocons?
Seriously. Sara Taylor, anyone? Et cetera. I was astounded at the FISA-limbo dance but ‘politics makes strange bedfellows’ or some hidden agenda or some =individuals= voted their conscience or bias? Nfi!
Eli mentions selflessness; I say it doesn’t exist. Just like altruism. Every time you want to help someone, there’s the “I”. I want to help this person … fine. But extend to “WE must do A,B,C” is sliding right into that group moral thing.
I remember, about 30 years ago, reading of some tribe in the American southwest, studied by one of the 17th century explorers. They had royalty and commoners. But they had the rule that the royals had to marry commoners … for any important decision, there would be a tribal council. In which women were equal as men. Everyone had a say.
If they decided to go to war against a neighbouring tribe, so be it. The ones who wanted to war, went. The ones who preferred to ‘tend their garden’, stayed home.
And I’m still trying to figure out ‘core values’ for progressives. Like: [Albatross @ 49]
“Progressives, meanwhile, exhibit courage both by showing faith in democratic processes – trusting your neighbor to make good decisions rather than fearing bad ones”
Which sounds like a great theory to me. But makes me wonder why the ‘conventional wisdom’ reckons that repugs love their guns and progressives hate em. But I know there is no progressive consensus on that topic.
All I know for sure is, being on a repo blog site often reminds me of that scene in “Jurassic Park” when the raptors pounce on the prey.
Someone way back had a good line, let me check.
“Not all conservatives are authoritarians–or vice-versa, for that matter!” Yes! Laura D @ 40
A fair statement, to my mind. Conversely, Alan Greenspan spinning his so-called libertarian credentials makes me puke. Not all libertarians are libertarians! Despite what they proclaim. One who is a pro-war libertarian is a contradiction in terms.
Rats leaving a sinking ship and writing their apologia to absolve themselves of blame. I hope all their books sink to the remainder piles very quickly.
Although I admire the principles of the Constitution, I have a sneaking suspicion “we’d” all been better off sticking to the Articles of Confederation.
I got a slug for the jukebox: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLn45-7Pn2Y
Thats from some kids from Ft Wayne, IN. I’m loving it.
Eli @ 306
So what’s Leona’s pooch excuse…??? Hmm…
Freud said that people were the least moral in small groups. He observed that membership in a small group seemed to make people feel they were off the hook somewhat for following personal moral standards.
peanutbutter @ 118
thank you.
lightly @ 312
But mobs are highly moral.
Twain @ 295
The ‘farmer’ mentality is the set of traits that succesful memberws of an agricultural society need to survive, one of which is following directions (or authority) without attempting to question. Acceptance of nature as authority (a higher power which humans cannot change or interact with, but must only adapt to), meaning you plant in the spring and harvest in the fall, not getting a wild idea of your own and deciding to plant in the fall. If you miss any step in the process you will starve. The successful farmer must have patience and a capacity for boredom, and must sustain long-term goals without immediate gratification.
This personality is consistent with the authoritarian personality – one comfortable with being told what to do and respectful of an authority that cannot be challenged (nature).
This is not saying that all conservatives are farmers and all liberals are hunters – everyone has both sets of traits and uses them in different aspects of their lives, but a preponderance of ‘farmer’ traits, it seems to me, would lean one towards a conservative point of view.
John Bolton fanning the flames. Wants to attack Iran
http://rawstory.com//news/2007….._0918.html
TRex upstairs. http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..-in-place/
Get Tough @ 308
Alicia, that is dangerously close to implying that farmers are not sophisticated enough to engage in matters of the state, or critical reasoning. I am not talking about farmers literally.
Alicia @ 318
Okay, great points, by the way.
moose @ 309
Basically, I agree with you, but I’ll quibble with this. “Selfishness” to “selflessness” is a spectrum. Ayn Rand’s entire trick is to use the absolutist definition (can’t have any “I” in altruism, so no one is really altruistic), and then swap in the common definition (which is spectrum, with zero in the middle). Thereby saying that “selfishness” is not only expected, but moral. Bah.
GordonM @ 320
At this point, I think I would settle for “enlightened self-interest” as an enormous improvement over the status quo…
If progressives are so well intentioned, they should ask themselves why voters reject their narratives more often then not. A most instructive example is the 1972 George McGovern campaign which parallels today’s situation. McGovern was anti-war bring the boys home from Vietnam immediately. Nixon proposed peace with honor, this after years of a war that went nowhere. McGovern proposed increasing inheritance taxes for the very wealthy to confiscatory levels. Someone who died with a billion dollars got to leave his family around fifteen million. McGovern viewed the economy as the game of monopoly it is, and thought it a good idea for winners to return their winnings the bank when their game was over. One would think the overwhelming majority of voters would welcome the idea since his tax proposal impacted less than one half of one percent of the population. McGovern lost every state but Massachusetts.
Marx, who predicted capitalist countries would first adopt communism, also was mislead by the proletariat. It turned out they didn’t want to eliminate economic chains. They wanted the dream of losing theirs and putting them on someone else even though it is extremely unlikely their dream will come true. These people by playing Megabucks and Powerball prove odds in the neighborhood of one hundred forty million to one do not deter them. Democratic frontrunners know this history which makes them cautious about taking a position which diminishes the ego building effect of unbridled nationalism.
The problem isn’t defining differences between progressives and Republicans. They’re obvious. The problem is understanding why selfishness does so well with the electorate. I’ll give you a hint. We are literally crazy and the craziness makes us suicidal. I believe I know the cause of the disease, but I don’t know what to do about it.
If republicans are the more selfish group, why is it that they way outspend democrats on giving to charity???
Progressives may disagree on a lot, but the core values that we share are those of protecting the little guy, while conservatives are unified in their dedication to protecting the big guy.
Sorry, totally disagree with that statement. Progressives want the government to control every aspect of your life. They want to regulate what is proper speech. They want to tell you how to raise your kid and what type of punishment that kid may receive. Republicans on the other hand want to keep the federal government out of everything and leave it up to the states.
Their loyalty is to “the in-group,” not to society as a whole. They pledge their allegiance to the Republican party or the conservative movement, not to the United States of America.
Riiight… We aren’t the group that viciously attacks our members (Lieberman and that congressman who just reported that the surge was working)for being out of lock-step with the nazi’s in Moveon.org. We aren’t the group that leaks national security secrets to the press just to try to make the republicans look bad. That looks like to me that democrats are the ones who put politics above what is best for America.
Republicans are the corrupt ones???
How’s cold cash Jefferson doing??? How about Feinstein being on the committee that gave her husband’s company military contracts? How about all those democrats arrested in NJ for bribery??? Here are a “few” other corrupt democrats:
William Jefferson Clinton- Impeached by the House of Representatives over allegations of perjury and obstruction of justice, but acquitted by the Senate. Scandals include Whitewater – Travelgate Gennifer Flowersgate – Filegate – Vince Fostergate – Whitewater Billing Recordsgate – Paula Jonesgate- Lincoln Bedroomgate – Donations from Convicted Drug and Weapons Dealersgate – Lippogate – Chinagate – The Lewinsky Affair – Perjury and Jobs for Lewinskygate – Kathleen Willeygate – Web Hubbell Prison Phone Callgate – Selling Military Technology to the Chinesegate – Jaunita Broaddrick Gate – Lootergate – Pardongate
Edward Moore Kennedy – Democrat – U. S. Senator from Massachusetts. Pleaded guilty to leaving the scene of an accident, after his car plunged off a bridge on Chappaquiddick Island killing passenger Mary Jo Kopechne.
Barney Frank – Democrat – U.S. Representative from Massachusetts from 1981 to present. Admitted to having paid Stephen L. Gobie, a male prostitute, for sex and subsequently hiring Gobie as his personal assistant. Gobie used the congressman’s Washington apartment for prostitution. A move to expel Frank from the House of Representatives failed and a motion to censure him failed.
DNC – The Federal Election Commission imposed $719,000 in fines against participants in the 1996 Democratic Party fundraising scandals involving contributions from China, Korea and other foreign sources. The Federal Election Commission said it decided to drop cases against contributors of more than $3 million in illegal DNC contributions because the respondents left the country or the corporations are defunct.
Sandy Berger – Democrat – National Security Advisor during the Clinton Administration. Berger became the focus of a criminal investigation after removing highly classified terrorism documents and handwritten notes from the National Archives during preparations for the Sept. 11 commission hearings.
Robert Torricelli – Democrat – Withdrew from the 2002 Senate race with less than 30 days before the election because of controversy over personal gifts he took from a major campaign donor and questions about campaign donations from 1996.
James McGreevey – Democrat – New Jersey Governor . Admitted to having a gay affair. Resigned after allegations of sexual harassment, rumors of being blackmailed on top of fundraising investigations and indictments.
Jesse Jackson – Democrat – Democratic candidate for President. Admitted to having an extramarital affair and fathering a illegitimate child.
Gary Condit – Democrat – US Democratic Congressman from California. Condit had an affair with an intern. Condit, covered up the affair and lied to police after she went missing. No charges were ever filed against Condit. Her remains were discovered in a Washington DC park..
Sowande Ajumoke Omokunde – Democrat – the son of newly elected U.S. Rep. Gwen Moore, was booked on charges of criminal damage to property for allegedly slashing tires on 20 vans and cars rented by the Republican Party for use in Election Day voter turnout efforts.
Daniel David Rostenkowski – Democrat – U.S. Representative from Illinois from 1959 to 1995. Indicted on 17 felony charges- pleaded guilty to two counts of misuse of public funds and sentenced to seventeen months in federal prison.
Melvin Jay Reynolds – U.S. Representative from Illinois from 1993 to 1995. Convicted on sexual misconduct and obstruction of justice charges and sentenced to five years in prison.
Charles Coles Diggs, Jr. – Democrat – U.S. Representative from Michigan from 1955 to 1980. Convicted on eleven counts of mail fraud and filing false payroll forms- sentenced to three years in prison.
George Rogers – Democrat – Massachusetts State House of Representatives from 1965 to 1970. M000ember of Massachusetts State Senate from 1975 to 1978. Convicted of bribery in 1978 and sentenced to two years in prison.
Don Siegelman – Democrat Governor Alabama – indicted in a bid-rigging scheme involving a maternity-care program. The charges accused Siegelman and his former chief of staff of helping Tuscaloosa physician Phillip Bobo rig bids. Siegelman was accused of moving $550,000 from the state education budget to the State Fire College in Tuscaloosa so Bobo could use the money to pay off a competitor for a state contract for maternity care.
John Murtha, Jr. – Democrat – U.S. Representative from Pennsylvania. Implicated in the Abscam sting, in which FBI agents impersonating Arab businessmen offered bribes to political figures; Murtha was cited as an unindicted co-conspirator
Gerry Eastman Studds – Democrat – U.S. Representative from Massachusetts from 1973 to 1997. The first openly gay member of Congress. Censured by the House of Representatives for having sexual relations with a teenage House page.
James C. Green – Democrat – North Carolina State House of Representatives from 1961 to 1977. Charged with accepting a bribe from an undercover FBI agent, but was acquitted. Convicted of tax evasion in 1997.
Frederick Richmond – Democrat – U.S. Representative from New York from 1975 to 1982. Arrested in Washington, D.C., in 1978 for soliciting sex from a minor and from an undercover police officer – pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor. Also – charged with tax evasion, marijuana possession, and improper payments to a federal employee – pleaded guilty.
Raymond Lederer – Democrat – U.S. Representative from Pennsylvania from 1977 to 1981. Implicated in the Abscam sting – convicted of bribery and sentenced to three years in prison and fined $20,000.
Harrison Arlington Williams, Jr. – Democrat – U.S. Senator from New Jersey from 1959 to 1970. Implicated in the Abscam sting. Allegedly accepted an 18% interest in a titanium mine. Convicted of nine counts of bribery, conspiracy, receiving an unlawful gratuity, conflict of interest, and interstate travel in aid of racketeering. Sentenced to three years in prison and fined $50,000.
Frank Thompson, Jr. – Democrat – U.S. Representative from New Jersey from 1955 to 1980. Implicated in the Abscam sting, convicted on bribery and conspiracy charges. Sentenced to three years in prison
Michael Joseph Myers – Democrat – U.S. Representative from Pennsylvania from 1976 to 1980. Implicated in the Abscam sting – convicted of bribery and conspiracy; sentenced to three years in prison and fined $20,000; expelled from the House of Representatives on October 2, 1980.
John Michael Murphy – Democrat – U.S. Representative from New York from 1963 to 1981. Implicated in the Abscam sting. Convicted of conspiracy, conflict of interest, and accepting an illegal gratuity. Sentenced to three years in prison and fined $20,000.
John Wilson Jenrette, Jr – Democrat – U.S. Representative from South Carolina from 1975 to 1980. Implicated in the Abscam sting. Convicted on bribery and conspiracy charges and sentenced to prison
Neil Goldschmidt – Democrat – Oregon governor. Admitted to having an illegal sexual relationship with a 14-year-old teenager while he was serving as Mayor of Portland.
Alcee Lamar Hastings – Democrat – U.S. Representative from Florida. Impeached and removed from office as federal judge in 1989 over bribery charges.
Marion Barry – Democrat – mayor of Washington, D.C., from 1979 to 1991 and again from 1995 to 1999. Convicted of cocaine possession after being caught on videotape smoking crack cocaine. Sentenced to six months in prison.
Mario Biaggi – Democrat – U.S. Representative from New York from 1969 to 1988. Indicted on federal charges that he had accepted bribes in return for influence on federal contracts.Convicted of obstructing justice and accepting illegal gratuities. Tried in 1988 on federal racketeering charges and convicted on 15 felony counts.
Lee Alexander – Democrat – Mayor of Syracuse, N.Y. from 1970 to 1985. Was indicted over a $1.5 million kickback scandal. Pleaded guilty to racketeering and tax evasion charges. Served six years in prison.
Bill Campbell – Democrat – Mayor of Atlanta. Indicted and charged with fraud over claims he accepted improper payments from contractors seeking city contracts.
Frank Ballance – Democrat – Congressman North Carolina. Pleaded guilty to one charge of conspiracy to commit mail fraud and money laundering related to mishandling of money by his charitable foundation.
Hazel O’Leary – Democrat – Secretary of Energy during the Clinton Administration – O’leary took trips all over the world as Secretary with as many 50 staff members and at times rented a plane, which was used by Madonna during her concert tours.
Lafayette Thomas – Democrat – Candidate for Tennessee State House of Representatives in 1954. Sheriff of Davidson County, from 1972 to 1990. Indicted in federal court on 54 counts of abusing his power as sheriff. Pleaded guilty to theft and mail fraud; sentenced to five years in prison.
Mary Rose Oakar – Democrat – U.S. Representative from Ohio from 1977 to 1993. Pleaded guilty to two misdemeanor charges of funneling $16,000 through fake donors.
David Giles – Democrat – candidate for U.S. Representative from Washington in 1986 and 1990. Convicted in June 2000 of child rape.
Gary Siplin – Democrat state senator Florida- found guilty of third-degree grand theft of $5,000 or more, a felony, and using services of employees for his candidacy.
Edward Mezvinsky – Democrat – U.S. Representative from Iowa from 1973 to 1977. Indicted on 56 federal fraud charges.
Lena Swanson – Democrat – Member of Washington State Senate in 1997. Pleaded guilty to charges of soliciting unlawful payments from veterans and former prisoners of war.
Abraham J. Hirschfeld – Democrat – candidate in Democratic primary for U.S. Senator from New York in 1974 and 1976. Offered Paula Jones $1 million to drop her sexual harassment lawsuit against President Bill Clinton. Convicted in 2000 of trying to hire a hit man to kill his business partner.
Henry Cisneros – Democrat – U.S. Secretary of Housing and Urban Development from 1993 to 1997. Pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor charge of lying to the FBI.
James A. Traficant Jr. – Member of House of Representatives from Ohio. Expelled from Congress after being convicted of corruption charges. Sentenced today to eight years in prison for accepting bribes and kickbacks.
John Doug Hays – Democrat – member of Kentucky State Senate from 1980 to 1982 Found guilty of mail fraud for submitting false campaign reports stemming from an unsuccessful run for judge. He was sentenced to six months in prison to be followed by six months of home confinement and three years of probation.
Henry J. Cianfrani – Democrat – Pennsylvania State Senate from 1967 to 1976. Convicted on federal charges of racketeering and mail fraud for padding his Senate payroll. Sentenced to five years in federal prison.
David Hall – Democrat – Governor of Oklahoma from 1971 to 1975. Indicted on extortion and conspiracy charges. Convicted and sentenced to three years in prison.
John A. Celona – Democrat – A former state senator was charged with the three counts of mail fraud. Federal prosecutors accused him of defrauding the state and collecting hundreds of thousands of dollars from CVS Corp. and others while serving in the legislature. Celona has agreed to plead guilty to taking money from the CVS pharmacy chain and other companies that had interest in legislation. Under the deal, Celona agreed to cooperate with investigators. He faces up to five years in federal prison on each of the three counts and a $250,000 fine
Allan Turner Howe – Democrat – U.S. Representative from Utah from 1975 to 1977. Arrested for soliciting a policewoman posing as a prostitute.
Jerry Cosentino – Democrat – Illinois State Treasurer. Pleaded guilty to bank fraud – fined $5,000 and sentenced to nine months home confinement.
Joseph Waggonner Jr. – Democrat – U.S. Representative from Louisiana from 1961 to 19 79. Arrested in Washington, D.C. for soliciting a policewoman posing as a prostitute
Albert G. Bustamante – Democrat – U.S. Representative from Texas from 1985 to 1993. Convicted in 1993 on racketeering and bribery charges and sentenced to prison.
Lawrence Jack Smith – Democrat – U.S. Representative from Florida from 1983 to 1993. Sentenced to three months in federal prison for tax evasion.
David Lee Walters – Democrat – Governor of Oklahoma from 1991 to 1995. Pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor election law violation.
James Guy Tucker, Jr. – Democrat – Governor of Arkansas from 1992 to 1996. Resigned in July 1996 after conviction on federal fraud charges as part of the Whitewater investigation.
Walter Rayford Tucker – Democrat – Mayor of Compton, California from 1991 to 1992; U.S. Representative from California from 1993 to 1995. Sentenced to 27 months in prison for extortion and tax evasion.
William McCuen – Democrat – Secretary of State of Arkansas from 1985 to 1995. Admitted accepting kickbacks from two supporters he gave jobs, and not paying taxes on the money. Admitted to conspiring with a political consultant to split $53,560 embezzled from the state in a sham transaction. He was indicted on corruption charges. Pleaded guilty to felony counts tax evasion and accepting a kickback. Sentenced to 17 years in prison.
Walter Fauntroy – Democrat – Delegate to U.S. Congress from the District of Columbia from 1971 to 1991. Charged in federal court with making false statements on financial disclosure forms. Pleaded guilty to one felony count and sentenced to probation.
Carroll Hubbard, Jr. – Democrat – Kentucky State Senate from 1968 to 1975 and U.S. Representative from Kentucky from 1975 to 1993. Pleaded guilty to conspiring to defraud the Federal Elections Commission and to theft of government property; sentenced to three years in prison.
Joseph Kolter – Democrat – member of Pennsylvania State House of Representatives from 1969 to 1982 and U.S. Representative from Pennsylvania from 1983 to 1993. Indicted by a Federal grand jury on five felony charges of embezzlement at the U.S. House post office. Pleaded guilty.
Webster Hubbell – Democrat – Chief Justice of Arkansas State Supreme Court in 1983. Pleaded guilty to federal mail fraud and tax evasion charges – sentenced to 21 months in prison.
Nicholas Mavroules – Democrat – U.S. Representative from Massachusetts from 1979 to 1993. Pleaded guilty to charges of tax fraud and accepting gratuities while in office.
Carl Christopher Perkins – Democrat – Kentucky State House of Representatives from 1981 to 1984 and U.S. Representative from Kentucky from 1985 to 1993. Pleaded guilty to bank fraud in connection with the House banking scandal. Perkins wrote overdrafts totaling about $300,000. Pleaded guilty to charges of filing false statements with the Federal Election Commission and false financial disclosure reports. Sentenced to 21 months in prison.
Richard Hanna – Democrat – U.S. Representative from California from 1963 to 1974. Received payments of about $200,000 from a Korean businessman in what became known as the “Koreagate” influence buying scandal. Pleaded guilty and sentenced to federal prison.
Angelo Errichetti – Democrat – New Jersey State Senator was sentenced to six years in prison and fined $40,000 for his involvement in Abscam.
Daniel Baugh Brewster – Democrat – U.S. Senator from Maryland. Indicted on charges of accepting illegal gratuity while in Senate.
Thomas Joseph Dodd – Democrat – U.S. Senator from Connecticut. Censured by the Senate for financial improprieties, having diverted $116,000 in campaign and testimonial funds to his own use
Edward Fretwell Prichard, Jr. – Democrat – Delegate to Democratic National Convention from Kentucky. Convicted of vote fraud in federal court in connection with ballot-box stuffing. Served five months in prison.
Jerry Springer – Democrat – Resigned from Cincinnati City Council in 1974 after admitting to paying a prostitute with a personal check, which was found in a police raid on a massage parlor.
Guy Hamilton Jones, Sr. – Democrat -Arkansas State Senate. Convicted on federal tax charges and expelled from the Arkansas Senate.
Daniel Flood – Democrat – U.S. Representative from Pennsylvania from 1945 to 1947, 1949 to 1953 and 1955 to 1980. Pleaded guilty to a conspiracy charge involving payoffs and sentenced to probation.
Otto Kerner, Jr – Democrat – Governor of Illinois from 1961 to 1968. While serving as Governor, he and another official made a gain of over $300,000 in a stock deal. Convicted on 17 counts of bribery, conspiracy, perjury, and related charges. Sentenced to three years in federal prison and fined $50,000.
George Crockett, Jr. – Democrat – U.S. Representative from Michigan. Served four months in federal prison for contempt of court following his defense of a Communist leader on trial for advocating the overthrow of the government.
Cornelius Edward Gallagher – Democrat – U.S. Representative from New Jersey from 1959 to 1973. Indicted on federal charges of income tax evasion, conspiracy, and perjury
Mark B. Jimenez – Democrat fundraiser – sentenced to 27 months in prison on charges of tax evasion and conspiracy to defraud the United States and commit election financing offenses.
Bobby Lee Rush – Democrat – U.S. Representative from Illinois. As a Black Panther, spent six months in prison on a weapons charge.
Bolley ”Bo” Johnson – Democrat – Former Florida House Speaker – received a two-year term for tax evasion.
Roger L. Green – Democrat – Brooklyn Democrat Assemblyman. Pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor for accepting travel reimbursement for trips he did not pay for and was sentenced to fines and probation.
Gloria Davis – Democrat – Bronx assemblywoman. Pleaded guilty to second-degree bribe-taking.