Ooohh, it looks like MoveOn.org hit a nerve… and is going to keep on hitting it:
MoveOn will expand the buy for its “Giuliani: A Betrayal of Trust” TV ad. The buy will be run nationally on CNN to answer the former mayor’s release of his new ad today. Giuliani’s most recent ad, responding to the organization’s criticism, demonstrates that he can’t answer the basic charge leveled against him: that he betrayed the public’s trust when he went AWOL from the Iraq Study Group (ISG) to take on high-fee speaking engagements.
According to Newsday, Giuliani missed ISG meetings in favor of lucrative speaking opportunities. He was eventually asked to resign from the ISG. MoveOn released an ad yesterday highlighting this and calling on Republican voters to ask Giuliani, “Where were you when it counted?”
The ad, which was already slated to run in Iowa starting today, will now also run nationally on CNN.
It’s no accident that MoveOn’s recent ads have caused the GOP establishment (and hence, the corporate media) to pillory them as the worst people in the history of the universe. As George Lakoff wrote on Sunday:
Betrayal is a moral issue, and with respect to war, mass destruction, maiming, and death, it is a moral issue of the highest order. Betraying trust is a matter of deception that knowingly leads to significant harm.
Back in June, Jane memorably wrote that the GOP brand is built on “The presumption of extreme moral rectitude even in the absence of any kind of moral compass whatsoever.” Anything that draws the latter part of that sentence to the public’s attention is the metaphorical exhaust port in the GOP death star (remember the freakout over Larry Craig?).
Our side often fails to attack this vulnerability because, well, we’re the “reality-based community,” after all — we prefer arguments based on facts and logic, and we’re not comfortable with the arrogance implied in criticizing someone else’s morality. But as Drew Westen and other researchers increasingly are recognizing, not everyone thinks this way. And the sad truth is, the arguments that are the most persuasive to us personally may not be the best method to reach people who don’t think the same way.
I wrote at length last October about the power of the “betrayal of trust” theme, explaining how it simultaneously undermines the GOP brand identity and builds the foundation for a stronger Democratic brand identity:
To counter decades of GOP propaganda, Democrats need to symbolically deliver a “you’re not our strong daddy” message at every opportunity; a repeated “betrayal of trust” storyline achieves this goal. . . .
This, I think, is a message that lifts the Democratic narrative above everyday campaign sniping, and the casual cynicism of uninformed voters. It argues that the moral compass of the Republicans in Washington, DC has gone seriously astray, and we need Democrats to bring a sense of adult supervision and just plain common sense back to our government.
Everyone, regardless of party, understands that there are certain fundamental, moral obligations that a government owes its citizens. From Mark Foley’s page-stalking to Tom DeLay’s corruption to Iraq to Katrina, the Republicans in Washington, DC have forgotten this. But where they’ve failed to uphold those basic trusts, Democrats will. That should be our narrative.
In my previous two posts here, I’ve used an even simpler shorthand phrase to describe the GOP stance regarding Iraq: moral failure. The more that Republican politicians are forced to stand by policies that are recognized by the public as not just failures but moral failures, the more nervously they’ll start looking around for an excuse to jump ship — and, in so doing, help us to end the war.
Which is why Rudy and others of his ilk react to MoveOn.org’s “betrayal of trust” accusations like ghouls recognizing the first shafts of sunlight breaking into their previously impenetrable crypt. Because that’s exactly what they are.
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Rudy, rudy, wherefore art thou!
Rudy will beat Hillary.
Jonathan @ 2
I don’t think so. If Rudy gets the nomination, I think he’ll get buried under the whole 9/11 thing. NYCers are pissed at him.
Why?
Because Americans like an angry male more than an angry female.
Americans vote their emotions.
What if Americans like an angry woman more than an angry male in drag?
hah! #5
Jonathan @ 4
Perhaps, but an angry righteous mom trumps an irresponsible husband ever time. That’s Swopa’s point — or part of it.
PhilK @ 6
This is the sort of thing that makes elections so hard to predict.
Hi Swopa! Hello everybody!
Swopa @ 9
I have got to stop laughing out loud at work like this…
Swopa, have you found any info on how MoveOn has done financially since Betrayus? Back to read.
Let us hope that The Hill is not the choice of the Democratic Party. George Bush in a dress is clever but….
Not clever enough to hide the fact that she differs only on the margins from the Republicans. And before ya start…
Read her ‘Health Plan’ which is just: More of the Same.
It should be named ‘The Save the Health Insurance Industry Act” because that’s just what it is. You get to pay for mandatory health insurance.
Anybody remember what happened to car insurance prices when that happened in CA?
Moral Failure, Back to Common Sense, Sanctimonious (I know it’s a big word) Jerks, Failed Foreign Policy, Elitists. Bring out the quote from the new book from the guy with the Flock of Seagulls haircut that Bushie was not going to, “be there for the blacks because they were not there for me” then show clips from Katrina. Go to war. RUDY AWOL. Thompson Lazy. McCain Bad Judgment. Hammer it home. Again, again, and again. I am an Obama fan, but I am afraid that he is going to suffer simply because he talks above the fray.
Good point Swopa,
Terse framing and reiteration in the media is well suited for a passive audience that do not actively seek to be well informed.
Jonathan @ 2
Dude, Rudy is the only one I’m sure Hillary would beat. He’s the only one she’s already beaten. If he could beat her, he’d be a senator now.
If I were Rudy’s adviser, I’d tell him to keep presenting the angry button.
Anger trumps almost eveything else.
Ghouliani betrayed his wifes and betrayed the FDNY and the NYPD. Once a cheater, always a cheater. He’s a serial cheater. A serial betrayer.
No moral integrity, whatsoever. And…he’s an egomaniac. He needs to get everybodies attention to consider himself human. He needs to go on a
medicationmeditation retreat to lose his ego and find himself, because he’s an illusion in his ownheadmind.loohoo@12
i dont know how well moveon has done this cycle but i squeezed out a donation from my pension to show my support for these ads…keep em coming i say!repugs and morals? uh uh – it does not compute
From The Hill: LINK
Swopa! Excellent post! Is there any morality left within the Gooper Party/Administration? Maybe, it’s a rhetorical question, but, it certainly needs to be asked…!!! *g*
Here’s another message to build on: Dishonor. True conservatives expect Republicans to be honorable people. For example, if there is a no confidence vote on Alberto Gonzales, they expect their party to vote for it, not against it, because it is the honorable thing to do. Republicans have robbed conservatives of their honor. Can you look up to a strong daddy who has no honor?
Ughhh, when I was a kid, if someone questioned my father’s honor, I’d take them on. (he was a man of the highest integrity, BTW) But it would drive me right up the wall if someone called him less than the most honest, most trustworthy person on the planet.
Let’s ping them. ;-)
cleter @ 16
Good Point!!! 8-)
cleter @ 16
Ding!
Great post, Swopa.
I love the smell of right-wing meltdown in the morning.
AZ Matt @ 20
Perfect. grant it, because the NYT also gave a discount to Gouliani. But there is more here: grant the hearing, get EVERYTHING out, don’t hold anything back, COMPLETE transparency. When it is completed, turn it back at Davis and say, “your turn–let’s see the goods from the Bushies”
Betrayal, is, some argue, the purist insult.
I had an interesting run-in with Rudy supporters, who had set up a tasteless pro-Rudy display on 9/11. My friend assailed them on his crappy record as mayor. I assailed them on the moral hypocracy of nominating a serial adulterer after impeaching Clinton–and the Rudy guys reluctantly admitted that impeaching Clinton was a mistake. His supporters were totally unprepared to be attacked from “the right” about Rudy’s morals. Rudy is not going to do well in the south.
CTuttle @ 23
You’re talking New York.
Not the entire nation.
portia.vz @ 22
Lack of fiscal responsibility should easy an easy one to hammer home.
LS @ 18
LS, I love it. That has to be the meme for Rudy. Get it out. There are elections to be won. No more high-road, no more fair dealings. Win the elections, crush them, then when in power, show the Bushies and their ilk how government is done.
When I lived in NYC during Ghouliani time, my car’s windshield and ignition was stolen. The next day, I put a note on my car with my phone number on it explaining the problem, because I could not move my car to the other side of the street (required in NYC, to clean the streets). I was a victim of crime. My car was immediately towed, it had snowed, so the inside of my car was filled with snow, and I had to take trains to somewhere the hell up at Fort Apache, the Bronx once I found out where they took it, (that cost $250), and then, I had to have my car “towed” somewhere to get fixed(I don’t remember what that cost, but it was a lot)…(fixing the car cost a lot)….That was when I packed up and got the hell outta there.
Jonathan @ 29
Ghouliani, in the South? The Bible Belt? Are you serious???
Jonathan @ 29
No, his serial infidelity, and his support for abortion rights will peel off the Republicans in the rest of the country. I’d say he’s their weakest candidate, not that they’ve got much in the field at this point.
Swopa- you said:
I’ve used an even simpler shorthand phrase to describe the GOP stance regarding Iraq: moral failure. (vs. betrayal of trust).
My view is that “betrayal..” is much stronger than “moral failure” because it resonates in a simpler and stronger way. “Moral failure” is a loaded phrase for many, something that might conjure up guilt about their own personal failings, esp. if they have been religion guilt-tripped (not that part for me, but I know friends…)
Everyone gets “betrayal”, because everyone has been betrayed in some form or other.
Rudy is an immoral, adulterous loser who has neither the temperment nor the experience to be president.
portia.vz @ 22
Yes Portia!! Let’s keep the focus on honor!
“How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world.” (Or a good concept).
I asked on a previous thread (but now can’t remember which one):
Does anyone have a physical mailing address for MoveOn?
I have a check written to send but don’t find such an address anywhere on their site. There’s a form for checks but nowhere to send it.
Thanks.
Loo Hoo. @ 12
I haven’t looked. I’m afraid they’ll hit me up if I ask directly.
AZ Matt @ 20
Bring it the fuck on!
i live in nj and pundits say ghouly has a lock on winning in my state… i dont believe that…
I’m thinking that a meme has been hit with “Betrayal.” There’s simply *so* many levels on which this works, I’m getting dizzy just sitting here at work contemplating them…
And the furious reaction on the right? Only strengthens that…
Jonathan @ 29
Uh, Jonathan dear, here in California your man Rudy is an embarrassing joke across our political spectrum.
Wait till Queen Judith wannabee catches him in some infidelity…cause you know it’s gonna happen sooner or later…he’s addicted….Shizzola will hit the fan, because she’s the Queen of Hearts, and you don’t mess with someone like that…she will eat him alive…I can’t wait.
CT at 33
Don’t know politics.
Go by feel.
My sense is that Ghoul plays MUCH better in the South than Hil.
FWIW, I know some well-educated folks in the South who will vote Dem but who hate Hil and who could vote for Ghoul.
newspaperbrat @ 43
We’ve especially had fun with the cross dressing part…
There’s not a republican candidate for president out there who isn’t laughable. Hillary or John or Barack could wax any of them.
twȝk @ 30
I have a friend who was raised Republican and it is very depressing for him when I tell him in advance how Republicans are going to vote. The AGAG no confidence vote is a perfect example. He is an independent now but he just could not believe that Republicans wouldn’t vote for it. It was definitely a matter of honor for him.
It’s really offensive.
Let’s bring it up repeatedly. >-)
newspaperbrat @ 43
He’s not my man.
Jonathan @ 49
Well then, your gut’s man, anyway ;-)
Loo Hoo. @ 47
Ergo, Rover to the rescue!
Valley Girl @ 35
every one has been cheated and lied to as well.
no one likes it.
who was it said
we are going to push and push until we are stopped.
cheats and liars!
Speaking of Rove, what is the House Judiciary Committee doing about the no shows on their subpoenas?
Putting your disaster command post in the WTC (which had already been bombed)against the recommendation of experts, just so you could cheat on your wife…that is one desperate, cheating addicted, sick man.
Valerie Plame.
Poster child for GOP betrayal.
Hey Rudy, good idea. Let’s make 2008 about betrayal.
How will that play with all the old-line GOP limited government, keep the deficit down types?
Jonathan @ 29
He wouldn’t carry the city he was mayor of, in the general election. He is as close to unelectable as they get. He’s a freakin’ mayor.
Besides, we don’t have national primaries. First he has to convince rural Iowans. Then he has to convince the people who didn’t vote for McCain because McCain sired a mixed race child* to overlook his serial adultery and New Yorkiness. Think he can do that? Especially when those same GOP primary voters find out he’s pro-choice? To a sizeable number of GOP primary voters, Hillary and Rudy are practically the same. They are both despicable New Yorkers.
*rumor spread by Bush operatives in 2000.
You’re not my strong Daddy is too weak. “You’re my Daddy and you shouldn’t be trying to fuck me” is the message we ought to be sending!
get tough at 14 says-”I am an Obama fan, but I am afraid that he is going to suffer simply because he talks above the fray.”
that’s my problem with him………..he never gets in the fray…….always above it……..floating, like a metaphysicist at a physics convention………
Jonathan @ 45
Jonathan, don’t think that sample of yours is indicative. I think there are lots of Hill-loving D folks in the South. I’ve tried to change a few minds, but to no avail.
Too bad Eureka isn’t around to give his take from AK. irrc, he said it’s the same there.
As Naomi Klein points out in “Shock Doctrine” if you’re all about building “brand” and not an actual product, in this case POLICY, you have outsourced your product, and are at the mercy of the “market” if you are producing cheap goods.
Cheep goods be damned! Let the parties produce progessive policies, or else we shall continue sliding backwards in both our fortunes and morality.
cleter @ 36
Rudy is the perfect Republican: He threw his first wife, who was his COUSIN, under the bus so that he could marry Donna Hanover. He got a priest who was involved in sexual misconduct to get him a Vatican exemption (a la Henry VIII) and then marry them. THEN, he had at least one long-time mistress who was, I think, on the City payroll before he got involved with the current Mrs. Ghouliani and he used the construction of the emergency center (which he required to be built at the WTC, because it was within walking distance of his offices)to provide himself with a rather luxurious “love nest”.
Let’s see now:
Threw his cousin under the bus.
Used a pedophile priest to get him an annulment and marriage.
Cheated on Wife number 2 with at least one staffer.
Used government funds to build himself a love nest while hamstringing emergency services by placing the emergency center in a large public building that had already been attacked by terrorists once.
Announced his divorce at a news conference while Wife number 2 was still in residence.
So. Let’s see now: Personal corruption, financial corruption, and having the ability to throw a family member under the bus to get what he wants. Even George W. hasn’t thrown a family member under the bus as far as I know – so Rudy’s one up on GWB.
OT, I’m sure I’m not the first to comment that Sen. Gordon Smith (R-OR) is now a YES on Senate Amendment 2202 to restore habeas corpus. His poor phone guy was quite abrupt in slamming me into the constituent voicemail, but I’m sure he was getting clobbered.
THANKS, CHRISTY!
Swopa, this may be too detailed, but immediately after 9/11 the global “occupational-environmental medicine” elist run by Gary Greenburg (at Duke?) erupted with very prescient assessments of theknown risk to emergency workers/residnets – all quite predicatble.
Should that level of detail be useful in sending Rudi back to the beerahll, I’m happy to go digging for it.
(OTOH, since Rudy overrode local NYC public health MD’s when he “re-opened” toxic lower Manhattan, the point could be made without excursion into these particular weeds…)
portia.vz @ 48
Good case in point! By far the most the most complaints I’ve hear from the right is IRT to lack of fiscal conservatism.
dmac @ 58
I feel like I’m at a revival meeting whenever he speaks.
albert fall @ 55
It’s a classic Rove move: project your weaknesses on your opponent, then ridicule them for it. It’s projection 101. It isn’t genius. It’s high school politics. Get down in the gutter. Crush them. Then, when elections won, and majority solidified, get to work, and bring in the conservative moderates under the tent poles.
albert fall @ 55
Yup, and the lou dobbs, made in the US , crowd.
Valley Girl @ 59
I live in the south, and know Republicans who will not vote for Rudy. If he is the nominee, I expect there will be some right-wing version of Nader, who will siphon of GOP true-believers who can’t abide a marginally pro-choice New Yorker.
Spine, spine, spine!!
Does Reid have some finally, please, please
Kos says Halleluja
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…..183919/041
Toby Wollin @ 61
Toby, don’t forget that he had a spot for Judith in his home with wife#2 till there was a restraining order in place. What does that tell you about JUDITH, as well as the ghoul?
the fact that ghouly is running and is taken seriously shows how far down the slippery slope we’ve fallen into dare i say it – fascism cuz surely he is of that mindset – americans are really stupid imo… god it is so sad that dems are spineless and have become appeasers
Valley Girl at 59
I know some well-educated folks in the South.
People with law and dental degrees.
A woman with an MS in library science.
People who stood up for Blacks during the Civil Rights days.
Who HATE Hillary.
While I believe Hillary could beat Guliani, I do not want her to be the nominee. I think Hillary might squeak past him. But Edwards would beat the crap out of him.
And remember? Who was it who said that the ghoul had volunteer workers continue searching for 9/11 bodies UNTIL the gold was found? Then discontinued the search immediately.
Jonathan @ 72
Why?
Jonathan @ 71
I’m asking out of ignorance, but is it because she’s not one of them?
Although I am uncomfortable using the kind of purely emotional argument that thugs so clearly prefer, the “betrayal of trust” theme really works for me because it is totally honest without injecting anger. It’s kind of like having a really nasty fight full of invective with your spouse before you actually talk about the real problem. And when you get to the real issue, you find that there is a lot of hurt behind the anger.
At the deepest level, I feel wounded and betrayed by my government.
Oh, and there definitely is a place for anger here too.
Loo Hoo. @ 69
It tells me that a) they are extremely well matched and b)they are probably the most self-centered and self-interested people to walk the earth. Judith has her own history of “under bus deposits” in terms of husbands, so the concept of “loyalty” and “fidelity” and “honor” is sort of completely lost with her.
Cleter at 75
Because they are good people. Honest.
They know a liar when they see one.
Like anyone here.
Loo Hoo. @ 64
I know. He gets a little preachy at times. He is a bit too hyper-articulate, especially more so with the head Bushie’s problems with strining nouns and verbs together. However, if given the chance, he could be one of the greats. Outside of the possibility that he had a threesome with two blondes in college caught on tape, I don’t see anything that could hurt him. I know someone who went to law school with him and played hoops with him. Obama did not set his sights on the WH then, and really did not think about it, at least to his close buddies, until that speach in ‘04. That’s the sort of person I want in the WH making the calls, not some person who has had her eyes set on the WH ever since her father said she couldn’t do it.
Good line.
I’m thinking of something like this:
“Al Gore trusted you in 2000 when he declined to contest a Republican victory.
In 2001, we trusted you to lead us against Osama Bin Laden and his terrorists.
We trusted you in 2002 when we entrusted Congress to a Republican majority.
John Kerry urged us to trust you in 2004 by not contesting the vote in Ohio.
But you have betrayed our trust. Instead of bringing us together, you drove us apart, pushing a “mandate” that you did not have.
Instead of fighting against Osama bin Laden and his terrorists, you led us into the invasion of Iraq, which had not threatened us, sending to their deaths more Americans than were killed at the World Trade Center in 2001. This invasion and occupation has resulted in the maiming and traumatizing of thousands more Americans, as well as thousands upon thousands of Iraqi casualties, most of whom were civilians.
And now, after making tax cuts for the rich, you want to leave us with the bill. You have betrayed us, and misled us, and it is time for you to pay the piper.”
Howzat? [Preview was my friend!]
Bob in HI
cleter @ 68
And, cleter, just to clear up any possible confusion, I was not trying to talk the pro-Hills into voting for Rudy;). Uh, and also, I am not pro-Hill, even tho I happen to be xx. (just an aside, you probably already know that).
AZ Matt @ 20
This is a non-starter. Just another R attempt to deflect people from recognizing the truth behind the “betrayal” framing.
I’ve heard explanations in several places that MoveOn got something called a stand-by rate, which, like a stand-by airline ticket, costs less because you do not get to know in advance what day your ad will run or on what page of the paper.
Davis is just embarassing himself with his lack of knowledge about how newspaper ad buys work. He’s been listening to too many hate radio half-truths and false assumptions. As soon as they start investigating this and acquaint themselves with some basic facts, the whole “unlawful rate change for political advertising” meme will melt away like the Wicked Witch in a rain shower.
Good Giuliani ad. I may have to give MoveOn a few more bucks. Since the betrayal meme has hit a nerve, let’s keep pushing it.
newtonusr @ 76
No. Because she is corrupt. And dishonest.
These are not stupid people.
unconventional conventionist @ 59
Yes, but being “all about” product without building your brand is just as self-defeating (especially if your competitor has spent decades attacking your brand). The failure of the Clinton health care proposal in ‘94 is a good example of that, IMO.
The solution is not to be “all about” one or the other, but to understand how to make both work together.
As a Democrat, I say I want Rudy to be the GOP nominee for prez.
cleter @ 72
I don’t understand how anyone in the GOP thinks they can “sell” Rudy – the guy has so much horrific moral baggage – he’s practically leaving a slime trail. The only thing they haven’t gotten him on is pedophilia and they don’t need to because he has his own pedophile priest as a long time personal advisor. The “ick” factor is huge with Rudy and I don’t care where people live, they are going to have to supress major gag reflex in order to vote for him either at the primary or general election levels.
All this business about HRC. I’m just aching to jump in.
albertfall at 55 says-”Hey Rudy, good idea. Let’s make 2008 about betrayal.
How will that play with all the old-line GOP limited government, keep the deficit down types?”
i was thinking that, too…….why in the world would rudy want to bring up his name and betrayal in the same sentence?
Canuck Stuck in Muck @ 57
Damn! Strong language, but the idea could work.
You’re my daddy and you’re not supposed to lie to me. I’m supposed to be able to trust you. But you betrayed my trust. Bad daddy! Shame on you!
Jonathan @ 83
Jonathan – all due respect, and I have family from the south, Haley Barbour is the Governor of Mississippi.
Across the board, the Republican party has betrayed America. They sold us out to the oil companies, every damn corporation in existence, the Saudis, Israel, Big Pharma, the Insurance Racket, the Credit Racket, you name it. The Republican party is a case study in betrayal. They are no more “American” than Osama. If they can get rich off the rest of us, sign them up. They are traitors to their core.
I would love to see Rudy get the betrayal from Moveon wrt the emergency center. BTW, how deep are Move On’s pockets?
I, for one, really do not want to see a lame-ass Rudy v. Hillary Subway Series election, where everybody turns out because they hate the other nominee slightly more than their own.
From TPM:
Rudy was against the NRA before he was for them.
As an aside: Maybe MoveOn.org should spend some bucks going after Ari’s
AstroTurf.orgFreedomsWatch.org.As in, “Ari Fleischer betrayed a nation by revealing a CIA operative’s identity.”
Loo Hoo. @ 74
That’s from the firefighters video (about nine minutes in): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaCYEEO-58I
swopa, this is a great piece you wrote
I personally would like to see moveon expand the charges levelled at guiliani
for instance;
“betrayal…let’s see just how far juliani’s betrayal goes
he betrayed our national security when he refused to supply our first responders with the equiptment he knew they needed, when he insisted they use devices he knew would fail
even though other agencies decertified the faulty equiptment, guiliani refused…
and he betrayed us again when he insisted on building the terrorist control center where every single expert told him it should never ever be”
man, moveon could go on forever against guiliani
Rudy, Fred, and Newt MUST be held to account about their personal lives. MoveOn should air commercials about little Judi. I am sure family values conservatives will love her.
That was great, Bob @ 81!
Jonathan @ 84
Jonathan, well, I’m glad that some people in the South see through Hill. The part I don’t get is why they would vote for Rudy instead. He’s corrupt and dishonest. Probably beats Hill in that regard.
wow swag at 62, pretty cool……..
“betrayal of trust” is powerful language and implies a conscious, negative action.
“moral failure” sounds like the brakes went out accidentally.
The GOP is not going bananas over people who accuse them of immoral actions, or of failures.
The GOP is going bananas when MoveOn or anyone else uses words that connote knowledge and intention — betrayal of trust.
We shouldn’t let the Beltway boys (and girls) back us off of using this language.
It resonates, it outrages, and it probably elects.
Prof @ 102
Oh, I do like that! LOL “moral failure” sounds like the brakes went out accidentally.
You go, Swopa! Moral failure, indeed.
well this is good news, let’s hope reid makes it stick;
from here
Valley Girl @ 100
I spose it would be silly to point out these are not exactly statistically signficant samples.
Valley Girl @ 100
Valley Girl,
There are LOTS of smart — like really smart — folks all over the nation, including the South.
ccmask @ 93
They’re as deep as the support they get.
two off topics…….but they matter……… i do so want you to be informed………….
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WO…..index.html
the 265 mph winds is what got me…………..
more iraqi ministers have jumped on the ban blackwater bandwagon.
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WO…..index.html
I’ve lived in the north, the eaat, the west, the south and in between. I find a lot of narrow thinking, no matter the region.
Jonathan @ 45
Friends don’t let friends vote rethug…! (I just got back from an errand and I see Rachel and Allison, bestill thy heart…!!!) 8-)
raven,
I served (rode on helicopters) with guys from the South.
NO PROBLEM.
Valley Girl @ 103
Which they didn’t. They were cut.
Jonathan @ 112
ARVN’s?
Moral failure. I like it.
Not the moral failure, of course, the slogan.
Swopa, the power of this post is in the push to get this past MoveOn and past Rudy, aiming at the entire moral failure of the GOP.
“Alberto Gonzales betrayed the public’s trust in the Department of Justice, when he and your White House cronies forced aside prosecutors who would not inject politics into their prosecutions. He has resigned, but the Department of Justice continues to obstruct inquiries into its behavior. . .”
“Michael Chertoff, you betrayed the public’s trust when you scoffed at the scope of the Katrina disaster, when you stood aside for days while New Orleans suffered, and when you continue to obstruct legitimate oversight of your department. . . .”
You get the idea. This could be a great series of ads, and there’s a ton of material to work with in the GOP of today.
Veritas78 @ 92
Truth.
Jonathan @ 107
shhhh…. don’t tell anyone, but I live in the South.
That Newsday article Swopa quoted above could use some more comments on it. No registration required.
I liked this part of the article:
Stephen Hess, who has served as an adviser to presidents from both parties, said quitting the group is likely to pose a political problem for Giuliani. “Leaving that study group was not exactly an act of courage,” said Hess, particularly because the group’s recommendations ultimately diverged from Bush’s stick-it-out approach, which Giuliani has embraced.
When the group’s report came out last December, Giuliani offered a different reason why he quit, saying he didn’t think it was right for an active presidential candidate to take part in such an “apolitical” panel. Giuliani also took pains at the time to distance himself from some of the group’s findings.
At some point, Baker spoke to Giuliani to find out if he intended to continue his involvement with the group. “He basically said, if people can’t make the meetings, we’ve got to find people who can,” Panetta recalled.
Asked if he knew what Giuliani was doing instead of attending the meetings, Panetta joked, “I’m sure making a hell of a lot of money.”
1,602 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Swopa and the Firepup Patriots:
Betrayal of trust…maybe we ken leverage that into “Betrayal of trust, George Bush is Texas’s O.J. Simpson.”
Yeah, I like that…and Mrs. Clinton has goons, who’d a thunk it??!!!
KEEP THE FAITH AND WATCH OUT FOR THOSE RUNNAWAY BUS WHEELS!!
and loo hooo i left you a message in the last thread that jeremy what’s his name, schiff?, man it bugs me that i can’t remember his name, and a nail head gave a great report about blackwater on the lehrer report on pbs………..worth a listen…..i know you were wanting stuff about blackwater………..
Morris Sheppard @ 115
“moral failure” has a nice ring to it but it’s really not nearly as strong as it needs to be
this was not moral failure this was moral deception…they didn’t fail, they knew what they were doing and they made beleive they had a moral high ground so they could deceive
Valley Girl @ 118
Your secret is safe with me.
Valley Girl @ 118
like, Omigod!
newtonusr @ 91
Newt, can you clarify that? I’m not sure what you mean, because (I confess) I know next to zip about Haley Barbour)
I hope somebody gets some people from moveon to stop by and have a look at all the suggestions we make on this thread
especially I hope they got to read jane’s post on how a democrat needs to respond when asked about the add
that was a great post too
off to bed, c all L8tr
Valley Girl @ 118
Do you talk funny?
TrueBlueMajority @ 96
I heard it that the wives and families of the FDNY showed up and that’s when the yellow tape was cut and they were allowed to continue to look for their brothers.
ccmask @ 93
I google, and can’t seem to find out anything about their situation financially. I really want to know if the betrayus ad brought in good monies. I would guess it did, since Swopa points out that they will put up more ads, even nationally, on the ghoul.
Has Rudy the warhawk ever served in the military?
Morris Sheppard @ 123
Won’t you come with me to Alabamy
Let’s go see my dear old Mammy
She’s fryin’ eggs and boiling hammy
That’s what I like about the South
Now there you can make no mistakey
Where those nerves are never shaky
Ought to taste her layer cakey
That’s what I like about the South
She’s got baked ribs and candied yams
Those sugar-cured Virginia hams
Basement full of those berry jams
An’ that’s what I like about the South
Hot corn bread, black-eyed peas
You can eat as much as you please
‘Cause it’s never out of season
That’s what I like about the South
Aahhh, don’t take one, have two
There’s dark brown and chocolate too
Suits me, they must suit you
‘Cause that’s what I like about the South
Well it’s way, way down where the cane grows tall
Down where they say “Y’all”
Walk on in with that Southern drawl
‘Cause that’s what I like about the South
Down where they have those pretty queens
Keep a-dreamin’ those dreamy dreams
Well let’s sip that absinthe in New Orleans
That’s what I like about the South
Here come old Bob with all the news
Got the boxback coat with button shoes
But he’s all caught up with his union dues
An’ that’s what I like about the South
Here come old Roy down the street
Ho, can’t you hear those tappin’ feet
He would rather sleep than eat
An’ that’s what I like about the South
Now every time I pass your door
You act like you don’t want me no more
Why don’t you shake that head and sigh
And I’ll go walkin’ by
On, on, on and on and on
Honey, when you tell me that you love me
Then how come you close your eyes
Did I tell you ’bout the place called Doo-wah-diddy
It ain’t no town and it ain’t no city
It’s just awful small, but awful pretty
That’s Doo-wah-diddy
Well I didn’t come here to criticise
I’m not here to sympathise
But don’t tell me those no-good lies
That a lyin’ gal like you can devise
You love me like I love you
Send me fifty P-D-Q
Roses are red and violets are pink
If I don’t get all fifty, I don’t show
She’s got backbones and turnip greens
Ham hocks and butter beans
You, me and New Orleans
An’ that’s what I like about the South
still beating this dead horse… i dont have confidence the dems will take full control of the WH cuz they cave cave when criticism comes their way thus the claim of being spineless…
Morris Sheppard @ 123
omigod! you and Peterr just make me laugh out loud. ;)
course, fer sure, you both know my origins.
That’s right, thank you TrueBlueMajority @ 96.
raven,
I crossed paths with the ARVN.
Too big a discussion.
twȝk @ 128
hey now! ;-)
most chickenhawks have no military service…. but they are tough no? lmao…
Am I the only one who would be depressed by a Hillary/Rudy Subway Series?
The thought that the nominations could be sewn up by March, and that we would have to listen to the two of them for eight long months…oh, the sorrow.
Veritas78 @ 92
Ding!
twȝk @ 128
onoly when i has too.
Valley Girl @ 125
Former head of the RNC, big-big-BIG tobacco lobbyist . . .
There’s a lot more, but you can see where that story goes.
Valley Girl @ 124
Oh, there are few pols in this country more corrupt than Haley Barbour. Never questioning the intelligence of Southern voters, ever.
Jonathan @ 136
How do indentify an ARVN Rifle?
Never fired and only dropped once.
Valley Girl @ 118
And Rudi’s not everyone’s favorite.
Jimmy Carter is a smart man. And he is a peanut farmer from the South.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 131
You have to ask? He fought alongside Sgt. Cheney and Corporal Limbaugh at the Battle of Other Priorities. He helped raise the flag atop Mount Deferment. He’s a hero!
LoudounLib @ 137
:) Hi LL!
cleter @ 147
707
Oklahoma kiddo @ 146
and he served in the Navy in nuclear subs, too. Bright guy.
cleter@146
hahahahaha – good one
I’m from the south. I’m not a dumbass. I have college degrees and stuff.
Keep pointing out that Rudy wasn’t coming to the rescue of NYC when he was walking through the streets of Manhattan…he was running for his life, because he put his command center at Ground Zero!! Great judgment Rudy!
Cheating bonehead.
raven @ 144
Never paid attention to ARVN rifles, that I recall.
Saw various weapons U.S. soldiers had. Swedish K-gun (9 mm). AK-47. Grease guns. M-16s.
Toby Wollin @ 150
Annapolis Grad! Best Ex-Prez ever…!!! 8-)
Valley Girl @ 141
ok, good :)
I just saw a flash of the first lady on msnbc. I often wonder what kind of a relationship they share.
Looking at her, it is hard to imagine that she would be able to satisfy a man of his hungry character satisfied.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 131
bwwwaahhhhhh
ccmask @ 157
huh?
Valley Girl @ 118
me too, but “I’m not from around here”
I talk funny. That’s what my kids in school tell me. I speak “Californian” though my native state is Oklahoma. When they tell me this, it makes me laugh, and the kids too.
I think it’s important to remain bland.
1,602 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizens Jonathan and Raven:
I went on one “civic action” project with the ARVN. Was the scariest 18 hours a my life and if I weren’t a good Midwestern Scandinavian, I woulda come out a full blown “gook-hater”…lucky though I got ta help take care a some NVA prisoners in our hospital compound, now THERE are some folks that I wish pulled our guard duty. The folks I got to meet at the Leprosarium once a month washed out the confusion too.
Are you OK out there , Jonathan?
KEEP THE FAITH AND TAKE CARE OF EACH OTHER!!
dmac @ 109
Thank you, dmac. I feel so badly for China. Doesn’t look like Blackwater will get the boot in Iraq, though, does it?
Al-Dabbagh said the ban will remain in effect while the incident is investigated and there is no intention of revoking Blackwater’s license indefinitely. He added, “We do need them to respect the law and the regulation here in Iraq.”
ccmask @ 157
I think she is a “mother” figure. I think she is his best friend and fan and believes in him. I can’t imagine any “intimacy” going on in the WH, even if that were still in the cards for them. I can’t imagine anyone having an “intimate” encounter in the WH…unless you are Gannon or Monica and Bill. It would have to be in a closet. I don’t see Laura getting in the closet with W.
Leprosarium. Now there’s a word you don’t see every day.
cleter @ 159
Well, to me he looks like he would be very hard to satisy sexually. I didn’t want to come right out and say it. And she looks like such a bore. But I have no trouble picturing him with Condi. It makes more sense.
Everythingseemssoneat @ 162
Ah! Someone finally explained why Kucinich is not a front-runner.
The Dems have been the battered wife for so long that the Rethug vicious husband can’t believe that wifey has fought back. The cops (the media) usually help to hold the Dem wife down but they’ve apparently taken a bribe.
Seems like Mitch McConnell is in a bit of a hard spot, what with his Kentucky constituents turning against the President and the President’s war that Mitch keeps on defending. From the Lexington Herald-Leader:
I’d love to see a MoveOn-style ad aimed at Mitch. Says the Herald-Leader, “It is simply too soon to tell whether poll results indicate that McConnell is in serious political trouble.” Maybe so, but those are NOT good numbers for a Senate party leader under any circumstances, and with a little “betrayal of trust” push, they’d go even further downhill pretty fast.
LS @ 165
Laura…and W…
Gah…my eyes…it burns!
LS @ 165
“Intimacy”. Ye gadds. Spare me the visual. ;0)
Oklahoma kiddo @ 161
That’s funny. I was really taken aback when a friend (also from CA) told me, after I came back from a visit to CA, that I had gotten back my California accent! What? People in CA don’t have accents!
Norske at 163
incoming, bro
Everythingseemssoneat @ 162
Well, it may be important to remain bland, but some say being non-commital might be more important. Maybe after I talk to a consultant I’ll make up my mind.
NorskeFlamethrower @ 163
Someone said “we’re killin the wrong. . .” well you know. I almost had a shootout with and ARVN Lt at the Can Tho Ferry.
Sorry for the visual. Bartender, give everyone a pint of brain bleach on me.
ccmask @ 167
Am I to understand that this kind of conversation is okay, but if I mention sports I upset some people. Are you serious?
1,602 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Cleter and the Firepup Patriots:
There are lots a words from that experience that are best kept back in that experience…the Leprosarium experience was special though, took me a long time to understand that it was that and a couple other relationships that allowed me to survive.
KEEP THE FAITH AND BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR!!
I thought that the “Betrayal of trust” message was a distraction and now I think maybe I was wrong. It certainly seems to be a “go anywhere, do anything” mantra that you can repeat against the repugnancy that is the GOP and the right (am I redundant?) whether it is Petraeus being a Bush tool or Giuliani being ummm whatever it is he is.
Any way I think that it is a convoluted phrase – betrayal of trust. I also think that “moral failure” is no better. They are abstract phrases. I mean betrayal is real but of trust? Unless your lover slept with someone else that has little concreteness to it.
But still it seems to have been effective. And why is that? I wonder if it hits the right on a plane where they do not know how to play.
It is obviously something that requires a response but the usual “oh yeah you are unamerican and a poopie head too” that we usually get from them just doesn’t operate in the same universe.
Could it be the Move On has hit the nerve in a place that can’t be rubbed out – that the right simply does not have the political vocabulary to deal with it?
laura aint thinking about boosh lol..when she squeezed the twins out she was done…
ccmask @ 177
Put it on Dark Black’s extensive tab…!!! ;-)
BigMitch @ 178
All depends on who is here.
ccmask @ 177
two pints. After conjuring the specter of Laura and W, you then had to bring up W and Condi. That’s two ghastly images.
cleter @ 152
This is getting truly off topic, but one of the things that I grew to learn living in the South is that there are Southerners who have an eloquent command of language. I can’t really explain it very well, but I do think that some of the very best orators come from the South.
If things continue as they have today (Move-on’s smackback and Reid’s pulling the compromise promise), I might just have to start having hope again. Too soon to tell, really.
GordonM @ 175
Ah, Mr. Miyagi sez ya get squashed like a grape…!!! ;-)
Valley Girl @ 185
Foghorn Leghorn was from down cheer.
paulo @ 179
I think that over the last 20 years, the Right has come to believe that words like “trust” and “honor” and “values” can only be uttered with power by a republican. To have that thrown in their face, and to have it stick . . . it leaves them speechless.
“But those are OUR words . . .”
Loo Hoo. @ 164
Why do we feel bad about China?
..just watched the University of Florida police-torturing-progressive-for-fun-on-national-TV video.. it’s one of the scariest things I’ve seen in this country. Beyond disgusting.
Valley Grrrrl,
Many, many good Southern writers.
This from a guy in the midwest.
raven @ 183
Heh, Basically, and whose thread you’re on…!!! ;-)
BigMitch @ 178
I don’t think it’s sports. I think it’s when you mention…uh…the place where Ben Hur happened. Where Baby You-know-who was born.
By the way, Florida beat the crap out of Tennessee.
Hey, lookit! Harry Reid might be, y’know, leading or something:
Citizen Jonathan:
Talk to me, brother Jon…where you at?
paulo @ 179
I think you’ve hit it. It is precisely because all of them are in bed with each other that “betrayal of trust” works. Their relationships to each other are ones of shallow lust or worship.
NorskeFlamethrower @ 195
Connecticut, bro.
Later guys.
Jonathan @ 191
Agreed. I didn’t want to try to explain more, bec. I really can’t do the topic justice.
Not strong daddy. Creepy groping uncle.
Jonathan @ 191
One of my faves would be Thomas Lanier Williams III.
CTuttle @ 192
Sounds like what Isaiah Thomas was trying to say. Ooops, sounds like I am talking sports.
Doctor Robotnik @ 200
707!!!
BigMitch @ 202
Too True, Bro…!!!
I’m way late in this thread, but the other key word I’ve been throwing in my LTE’s, letters to my congress critters, and in online comments is “INCOMPETENCE.”
Betrayal and Incompetence hit a raw nerve with everyone no matter their partisan leanings. They can be used to address any and every issue of the Bush regime from Katrina to the war to fiscal issues, etc. I know plenty of conservatives back in the midwest who did the unthinkable in 04 and voted for, gasp, a Democrat, even though it was Kerry. There are so many more voters that will join them in 08. It is going to be UGLY for Republicans next fall.
That includes who the poster is, and the time of day.
For instance, I understand that during Late Nite, comments such as ccmask’s are not only permitted, they’re mandatory.
Lest we forget, and I’m from Chicago:
Oklahoma kiddo @ 201
Thanks, OKK.
I’m ignorant.
But I’ll check him out.
New Eli thread upstairs!
twȝk @ 156
Don’t understand why a southern accent is funny but a New York accent isn’t. People from Wisconsin have an accent and lord know Boston does, so why is the south funny?
Loo Hoo. @ 129
Have been a committed MoveOn junkie since early on and delighted with their work and considerable following – and if I were to hazard a guess I’d wage their recent campaigns have increased their numbers and fund raising. IIRC the founders are a husband and wife team who originated from the east bay – Berkeley/Oakland.
cleter at 147 says-”You have to ask? He fought alongside Sgt. Cheney and Corporal Limbaugh at the Battle of Other Priorities. He helped raise the flag atop Mount Deferment. He’s a hero!”
mt deferment………..perfect
AZ Matt @ 20
Twain @ 210
I’m not sure what you mean by your question. But, if you mean why is it subject of mockery or humor, I think part of it is that it’s much easier to give a rude imitation of a generic Southern accent than is true for other accents. The Southern accent is probably seen as “all the same”, where ever. (Though that’s actually not true in my experience.) Pretty easy to give a generic imitation of Valley Girl speak, too! ;)
Twain @ 210
I dunno, I had a southern accent but moved to Michigan for school. Since, I’ve always associated a southern accent with social conservatives even tho I know those with a southern accent represent greater diversity than what the social conservatives represent.
Bush Betrayed America.
I like that.
Bush Betrayed the troops
Bush Betrayed the Constitution
Bush Betrayed the Justice Department
Bush Betrayed the Congress.
Now to swing that to the Rethugs, because Bush is not running. Or maybe the Neocons
Nancy Pelosi announced there would be no subpoenas from the judiciary committee. If she has the votes to get them she doesn’t have the energy or the sense of duty to do so.
[shrugs] What the fuck can I say? DINO. To some degree it’s significantly true.
It’s really sad. I miss a functioning government.
Swopa! Yeah! Not ready to make nice!
Twain @ 210
Someone from Boston knows the difference between a Boston Brahmin accent and working class accent (think of the Family Guy episode with “chowda”). One of them is funny. Same in NY. If you’re from the Bronx, a NJ accent is funny. And vice versa.
So, to a northerner, any southern accent is funny. But beyond that, think about, oh, why is it that Boss Hogg had the strongest accent in the show? Accents are easy to make fun of, and southern accents have been associated with all the worst parts of the south (and not just by northerners).
Swopa: Sorry for my off topic above. Like I said before, I had just seen a clip of Laura and it hit me how different she was from her husband. Didn’t mean to make it a sex scandal.
In a more on topic, did you see this today?
snip
In his broadside against MoveOn.org, Rudy Giuliani calls himself the “worst nightmare” of MoveOn liberals. But he wasn’t always as aggressive with progressives. In fact, he ran, thrice, as a Liberal. A Republican-Liberal. Two parties, two ballot lines. Picture it, New York 1, 1993…
“They can send me a signal and vote for me on the liberal line.”
That line, from Giuliani in 1993, can easily be twisted into a negative ad today.
PS: There is a video of him saying it at the link.
Swopa @ 39
I sent them $500 today and told them to keep up the good work.
dmac @ 58
I like it when a candidate talks in the abstract about their ideals, but then they have to show their work, they have to back it up with specifics which proves they are all in.
betrayal as meme yes, but drop the part about how they “forgot.” they didn’t forget. they did it on purpose. it was conscious, knowing, thoughtful betrayal. you’re either a fool or a knave and giving them a “we forgot” out allows them the lesser of the two. they are knaves. roll tape.