In the effort to end the US occupation, the next battle may be over the Webb Amendment, which seeks to codify limits on the length of combat tours and requirements for an equal period of rest, recovery and retraining.
Webb’s effort is about the math of rotations, and just like the surge, it’s math has its own inexorable effect on the occupation forces. If you can impose these limits on tours and down time, you can force the President to maintain fewer troops than he might like and might even force him to withdraw the surge forces a little sooner. But that’s all.
Once the math works its way through the system to force a modest reduction, the withdrawal strategy is done, meaning we still wind up with about 100,000 or so troops in Iraq into 2009. That would still leave the next President to deal with the political and military risks of what to do with a very large occupation and whether/how to end it or change its mission.
The cloture vote on Webb’s Amendment got 56 votes last time, and the Democratic hope of salvaging something from Bush’s term lies in the Amendment getting at least 60 votes this time (although there may be a strategy for attaching the amendment to the Defense Appropriations Bill that does not require 60 votes). It says a lot that the Republicans would not allow an amendment that clearly supports the troops and their families to even get to a vote in the Senate.
The Administration is already practicing the arguments against this modest proposal, sending out Secretary Gates and Pentagon spokesmen, as well as neocon favorite Fred Kagan, to claim that such mandatory limits are unworkable. Their main argument? That it would require the Pentagon to keep track of every soldier, his or her specific dates relative to the limits, and the effect on the overall force levels of that soldier’s unit. There are two answers: (1) Yes, but so what? (2) Is Gates saying he can’t meet the promises he made to the troops last winter? Does George Bush now require that Gates betray his troops?
Astonishingly, the Pentagon is claiming that it does not have the ability to do such individual tracking and still maintain functioning combat units. I say astonishing, because 35 years ago, these same people did exactly that: they had to keep track of my individual dates — when I came in country, how long my tour was, what my R&R entitlements were — and the same information for every one of my buddies, as they rotated each of us in individually and rotated us out individually, as our respective tours began and ended.
Fresh troops were continually being cycled in to replace those who had finished their tours. New guys worked along side those who had been there for a few months or many months. We learned from the “short timers”, and we in turn passed on what we knew to others who followed. And the Army did this for all 500,000 plus troops in Vietnam. It’s not rocket science; it’s called accounting.
The rotation policy may well be structured differently now, but the suggestion that the Pentagon doesn’t know how to field an Army while honoring a commitment that our soldiers don’t have tours longer than 12 or 15 months (or whatever the number) and get an equal time off between tours is preposterous and insulting. But in the age of Bush, preposterous and insulting positions get repeated endlessly if left unchallenged, and then become national policy.
Photo of Secretary Gates: AFP/File/Hassan Ammar



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oh boy
But it’s too complicated.
It might require use of MS Excel.
Scarecrow, Great post. The pentagon has to handle rotations now and keep track of deployments so the response just didn’t make sense.
AndrewOG @ 2
Good morning everyone. Raven — you remember what I’m talking about?
You got to the Nam and you had a DEROS, Date Eligible to Return from Overseas. The company clerk kept track on paper. When you got short they notified Battalion, they issued orders and you got on the Freedom Bird back to the World.
It’s as though everyone forgot about the microprocessor “revolution” which began in the early 80’s… They could do this kind of recordkeeping with a Commodore 64! Jeez…
-MS
raven @ 5
And there were guys cycling in every month during your tour. The point is, the unit didn’t dissolve just because you/I left; it kept going as long as that unit was needed. Even the officers were cycling in/out.
wow, this administration is afraid to back down on anything.
I got a 30 “drop” to go to college. They processed it after I got accepted to Illinois and away I went. Please don’t ask how someone with a GED got accepted into a Big 10 University, it’s called “getting over”.
Scarecrow @ 7
Exactly, and when you were in a line outfit like you the officers only spent 6 months in the bush so they could “get their cards punched”.
i like webb’s amendment… but i don’t think it’s any substitute for congress taking serious action in support of withdrawal.
Looking for solid articles on the Blackwater situation in Iraq — not their history/politics — what’s really happening now.
Scarecrow @ 12
Lot’s of recon by fire. H&I.
heads up firepups:
11 am – House Judiciary Committee hearing on FISA. Witnesses are Mike McConnell, Director of National Intelligence and
Kenneth Wainstein, Assistant Attorney General for National Security US DOJ.
scheduled to be on c-span3
details and week’s schedule here.
Caw, caw! Good morning, Scarecrow.
selise @ 14
Selise, Thanks for the reminder. Would it be too much to ask those testifying in front of Congress to tell the truth?
The Bushies can’t manage anything. It shouldn’t surprise you that the Pentagon can’t figure out how to do something it doesn’t feel like doing.
They farm it out, anyway. It’s disgusting how much of our war in Iraq and the (bullshit) war on terror is being fought with contractors. And in Iraq, they answer to no one – as disgustingly displayed by this latest Blackwater murder spree.
Good Morning !
I must say, Sunday when I heard Gates use “keeping track of individual soldiers would be hard” as an excuse, I was dumbfounded.
Each of those individuals isn’t worth at least that much attention? knowing where they were and how long they’d been there?
not to mention this is the computer age.
Thanks for dismissing that balderdash!
Elliott @ 18
Yea, and the “kid” at Kerry’s event is older than about half of them.
JPL @ 16
yes.
raven @ 19
and too young to order a glass of beer with their pizza.
AndrewOG @ 2
i think there may actually be an explanation…. tracking the troops has been outsourced to halliburton in a cost plus no bid contract.
Elliott @ 18
Keeping track of individual soldiers would be hard. Much easier to just bomb the shit of Iraq.
What a load. Remember how easy they said this occupation would be? It’s easy when they want to do it, hard when they don’t. I guess everybody does that.
Elliott @ 21
I got thrown in jail in Urbana two weeks after I came home for underage drinking. I was 19, 2 months short of my 20th. 13 months in Korea 11 in the Nam and busted for a beer. Gee, if there had been youtube I could have screamed “help help help” and all the civil libertarians would have come to my rescue!
The emphasis on unit solidarity is stronger today than it was in Viet Nam. Enlisted men are supposed to stay in the same unit for years, strengthening their relationships so they will fight together better. This means that units are sent to Iraq, rather than individuals.
When a unit loses a person to injury or death or sickness, there are four possibilities: a) the person is not replaced and the unit goes on, b) the person is replaced by someone with less time in Iraq than the rest of the unit, c) the person is replaced by someone in Iraq with more time than the unit, or d) the unit is disbanded.
If the person is not replaced, there is no effect on rotations, and the unit goes home after one year. If the new person has less time in Iraq than the rest of the unit, the person either goes home with the unit, or stays, just like in Viet Nam, only in another unit. If the person has more time, the person gets to go home, and is either replaced or not. If the unit is disbanded, there are plenty of people to spread around for b) and c). We will need a decision tree for d) which should be the least likely possibility, but they probably already have it.
There. That should be easy to translate into C or Lisp, and if they start now, the Pentagon can have it ready when the Webb Amendment passes.
So the solders are willing to lay down their lives, but the government isn’t willing to do a minimal amount of paperwork to support them? For shame.
masaccio @ 25
That makes it easier to do, as you well know.
raven @ 24
Aiyeei!
JF @ 20
yes.
i was very disappointed in last week’s hearings with petraeus – 3 hearings and in none of them was he asked to take an oath to tell the truth.
conyers will probably make them take the oath, but if they lie there’s not much he can do. pelosi is still sitting on his contempt requests… and doing nothing to build the case, etc.
selise @ 22
And cross-referenced to databases [outsourced to the same small number of firms] about their political allegiances and communications. In case they need to be taken care of, like that young guy from Minot. Or Tillman.
What would Bush do if tomorrow morning every Iraqi citizen came out into the street waving a white flag?
Liddy Dole is on the fence, give her a push
http://dole.senate.gov/
raven @ 24
you seem angry at the guy who was tasered… what’s up?
egregious @ 30
I wonder if there is a chip in dog tags now?
raven @ 34
you mean in the soldier?
selise @ 22
Believe it or not, EG & G (Difi’s hubby’s company) probably does take care of it. They have historically been a major purveyor of such support services…
selise @ 33
Not angry, I watched it and I don’t think the hysterics were anywhere near necessary. Earlier this morning someone was commenting on how this guy was “terrified”. I just don’t buy it, in my opinion he knew what he was doing and wanted it to happen. Terrified is walking or driving down a road in Iraq.
egregious @ 26 – that would make a great sound bite.
Elliott @ 35
No, on the tags. I mean it has blood type but I just wondered if other important medical info was somehow stored.
g’morning scarecrow!
g’morning all firedogs
sorry to go off topic so soon but I have to get to work and I am thinking this needs some research;
ok, look at that…the whitehouse is determined to get this guy nominated
why is that?
he seems to us to be an acceptable choice doesn’t he…yet in meetings with the base he is telling them what they want to hear
so, what do they want to hear?
they want to hear that this ag will approve all the decisions that abut torure made concerning the war and concerning the fireings…approve them as precedents
that’s the ONLY way bush can nominate an ag…and this guy MUST have given the president guarantees
ESPECAILLY regarding the laws that were already broken
so, in confirmation, the questions have to be made directly;
1) have you discussed your position on previous decisions made by the ag, have you given any guarantees that programs would be allowed to continue?
2) welll, I don’t have a 2) or a b) or a 3) or a c( but some of you must
we need to make sure our critters are prepared with the right questions
Diane @ 38
Thanks. I’ve done radio and a little television, have a sense for what will get picked up and quoted in the final cut.
raven,
all they got to do is put the chip in the grunt
some place not likely to get blown away
Scarecrow @ 12
not sure what you are looking for…
but amy goodman is interviewing jeremy scahill this morning (and someone who, i think, represents the “industry”).
AndrewOG @ 2
Excellent post Scarecrow and great point Andrew.
“Too complicated” is more Bushshit! Just like the “bush shit” that we are in Iraq for the Iraqi people and not the oil. More evidence of the “bush shit” as Condi Rice tries to protect Blackwater’s ability to protect US officials and contractors and the billions being made.
CALL YOUR REPS TODAY DEMAND THAT THEY GET BEHIND SENATOR WEBB’S LEGISLATION IN REGARD TO TROOP ROTATION AND THE LEGISLATION DEMANDING THAT THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION BE REQUIRED TO COME BACK TO CONGRESS BEFORE THEY START ANOTHER UNNECESSARY WAR.
The argument that it is too difficult to manage troop rotations goes to the heart of the competancy issue and should be called on that.
If you cannot manage 300,000 troops you should not be in charge.
Period.
raven @ 37
well i disagree… both seem pretty terrifying to me. but, whatever you think of the guy, isn’t what the police did completely unjustified?
raven @ 24
And here I was in HS and college ROTC using a gov’t driver’s license as a fake ID. And I knew some guys using their rifle cards.
selise @ 43
Scahill wrote Blackwater
Someone just called into C-Spans Washington Journal about the taser event in Florida.
Raven I think some of the concern besides the obvious that the guy was simply asking a question, and Kerry immediately saying let me answer the question, is the accumulative events of over the top Police responses. Leg shackling “paster posters” in D.C., Reverend Yearwood, and the Florida student.
As GSD pointed out in a previous thread the police are looking more and more like “brown shirts”.
Not in my opinion but I know I’ll be in a distinct minority. . . again. I think the thing with the Rev in the congress last week was unjustified. When this cat started pulling away from the cops and waving his arms around wildly that was resisting arrest.
OT
Tony Blankley is leaving the Washington Times as editorial editor, he’ll write a weekly column for them, tho
He’s going to a PR firm and — wait for it — The Heritage Foundation.
Scarecrow @ 12
You might be interested in this from Al Jazeera. It includes some witness testimony of the shootout @ the end of article:
Iraq Ends US Security Firm Licence
Reading ME papers listed in watchingamerica.com, but it’s all background on Blackwater so far…
ccmask @ 31
Hi pups,
Wow! But what if every American Citizen came out waving a sign?
There is another boring and worthless analysis by Richard Cohen. This Beltway weenie does catapult the propaganda about those angry, MoveOn bloggers. Cohen does not approve of “sliming” Gen Betray-us. Has anyone writing for the Washington Post ever reported the total incompetence and failures, of all the Generals that have been winning the Iraq Genocide? Especially Betray-us.
Cohen is a loyal Bushie as proven by his reporting on something else. The Clinton “scandals”, Travelgate, Filegate and Whitewater. Remember these scandals, taxpayers funded $100 million dollars of investigations. This was ten times more than the 9-11 Commission spent. But Cohen, you are an idiot. They found no scandals despite spending all that money. But, Petraeus lost 190,000 weapons to insurgents which might be considered a scandal.
It is almost funny, that Cohen compares MoveOn to Joe MCarthy, the Commie hunting drunk. Cohen totally ignored the actual facts of the ad. He also ignores today’s McCarthys-Limbaugh, Beck, Scarborough, Novak and many more…
Cohen has not noticed that Republicans continue to compare dissent with disloyalty. We are seeing the effectiveness of MoveOn, and it feels good to fight back. I may even have to contribute to MoveOn.
raven @ 50
but he shouldn’t have been arrested in the first place! all he was doing was asking an uncomfortable question. when did that become illegal?
bluejeansntshirt @ 53
Both great ideas!
Kathleen @ 49
Equally worrisome is the indifference shown by many bystanders in the tasar incident as well as the D.C. ‘happening.’ Such avoidance reactions are suggestive of a social breakdown, not disimilar to what happen in Nazi Germany: ‘First they came for … and I did nothing … then they came for … and still I did nothing.
selise @ 55
Yes he did begin waving his arms. The question being what did he do in the first place? Ask a question. What did Rev. Yearwood do to have the Capitol Police respond the way they did?
mack @ 45
Wow. How’d the US manage to win WWII? Oh, that’s right. A Democrat was President.
David W. Bartoo @ 57
So you are suggesting that people in DC should have jumped in and tried to free Yearwood and Meyer?
Marie Roget @ 52
Heres’ a tidbit from Marie Roget’s article that popped put at me:
.
They also protect journalists, visiting foreign officials and thousands of construction projects.
.
No wonder the MSM isn’t all over the Private Military Contractor scandalence
Kathleen @ 58
In the Homeland we must protect against the citizenry. There will be no dissent.
Marie Roget @ 52
I’ve been poking around non-US media sites as well, and that’s the only piece I’ve seen so far that wasn’t a re-write or reprint of a US story (AP, NYT, etc.).
The manpower problem has been in the works since the fall of 2003, when it became clear we were in for an extended Occupation. I remember writing a Christmas that year to an old friend who is charge of this area at the Pentagon that I hoped he wouldn’t be taking the fall for the manpower mess (so far he hasn’t).
On another closely related topic, am I the only one here extremely apprehensive about an attack on Iran before the week is out? I recall something that flitted through blogistan a few weeks ago concerning a huge bet placed on oil futures for September 20. The Israeli raid on Syria, Sarkozy’s statement, the misplaced nuclear-tipped cruise missiles, and certain grumblings out of China and Russia are putting my teeth on edge.
On yet another topic. I continue to work my way through Hannah Arendt’s Origins of Totalitarianism. The parallels with current developments in the United States with respect to the abandonment of rule of law as the ultimate protection of the individual personality are astonishing and frightening.
Knut
Which is why we are pushing back so hard on the Department of Justice politicization.
Jonathan @ 42
Well, if they are RFIDing our troops, which I’ve never heard before, they may be in for a nasty surprise…
Mornin’ Scarecrow & ‘Pups
That the DoD cannot keep track of troop rotation is utter bullshit! But, of course, we all know that.
Scarecrow and Raven: thanks for your sacrifice! I admire both of you not only for your service but also for your brilliant minds and unadulterated honesty.
Raven, I imagine your stay in the clink in Urbana was a cakewalk compared to what you had recently been through.
Raven @ 50
Add one to the unpopular minority.
If you are going to do Civil Disobedience, do it right.
Yearwood did it right.
The kid didn’t.
raven you are to be commended for your coolth.
Many, feeling unjustly confronted by he police FOR DOING NOTHING WRONG, might lose sight of their responsibility to immediately cooperate with authority, as the Reverend, in fact did.
And no, I’m not suggesting that. I am suggesting that our ‘myth’ that the authorities are always ‘right’ and ANYONE whom they target is GUILTY and deserving of whatever they choose to do to him or her is just fine. Do you have a problem with members of the public asking, simply asking, WHY someone is being assaulted by the police? Oh, that’s right that would be ‘interfering’ and a ‘crime’ itself.
Mack @45 – my reaction exactly. The really really sad thing is they are coming right out and SAYING they are that f’ing incompetent, and NOBODY is going to call them on that in either the Congress or the Beltway Media weenies.
We’re just too incompetent, we can’t count or do any of that pesky math, so we can’t do right by the troops.
Sickening.
Scarecrow’s New One on Blackwater Upstairs
raven @ 60
of course not!
there’s lots of nonviolent ways to respond and even intervene… from the easy to the extremely dangerous.
an easy example – chanting “SHAME!” at the police will sometimes bring them to their senses and it let’s other members of the public present know that that you find the police action wrong.
an extreme example – when police or even military show signs of getting out of control sometimes calmly stepping in front of their target and telling them that there is no need for violence can bring them to their senses.
i’m not saying anyone should have taken an extreme action. i give the example just to show the wide range of non-violent actions that are possible.
“Violence is the last sanctuary of the weak.” — Otpor
Sad. This is just sad. Where is the democratic spin about republicans not letting a bill to support the troops and their families come to a vote? Three years ago, the Rs were so concerned about judges getting an up or down vote, arent the troops just as important? Wheres the D Senator on the news, “I can think of nothing more pro-family than this measure, but the “Family Values” Party wont even let it come to a vote. What are they hiding from?”
I remember having a conversation several years ago with someone who said, “The problem with the Democrats is they have no dirty tricks department, Carville alone doesnt cut it.” Im beginning to think the problem isnt a lack of ditry tricks, but a lack of strategy all together.
David W. Bartoo @ 69
In the video of the Rev there were most certainly people questioning what happened.
ps
what’s coolth?
raven @ 60
Many at the Yearwood incident shouted out “he is a minister, take it easy what did he do?”. The students at Florida sat there watching saying nothing, some of them were smirking. When the student started yelling “help” I did hear what sounded like objections in the background.
The majority of Americans are no different than those who “did nothing” as millions were systematically slaughtered by the Hitler regime. How different are we? The direct result of our invasion is the tragedy that is taking place in Iraq.
Kathleen @ 75
Maybe because the incident was an over reaction by the police and the one in Florida wasn’t. Maybe.
Yes raven, some did question and they have my undying gratitude, but most did not. the question is; does intimidation work? What do you think?
Scarecrow has a new thread upstairs.
Peterr @ 63
BBC just interviewed Iraqi people who witnessed the incident. They said there was no shooting from the streets before the Blackwater mercenaries started shooting indiscriminately.
raven, in Florida, just what justified the intervention of the police at all. By what definasble, legally consistent reason did they decide the person in question was a ‘threat’ initially?
check this out;
ok, the floodgates have opened
so congress MUST jail meyers and whoever has defied subpoena, they have no choice
perris @ 81
Meyers, Josh Bolten, Rove have set the “standard” don’t show up. SHOWDOWN TIME
David W. Bartoo @ 80
I’ve watched and and read as much as I could. Many here have as well. Most feel it was an over reaction by the police. I don’t.
raven @ 83
let me just make sure i understand…
you think the police were right to try to attack/remove/arrest the guy in the first place – when all he had done was ask an uncomfortable question? is that right?
selise @ 84
Remove yes, it’s your interpretation that all he did was ask an uncomfortable question.
raven @ 85
what’s yours?
selise @ 86
Ugh, I don’t know what I can say. My view was that the dude went in looking for trouble. He was abusive to Kerry (if you know me you know I have my own issues with John). There was a set time frame and Kerry agreed to let him ask the question anyway. He went from the question, and it’s a stretch to call it a question, about the 2004 election to why he didn’t support impeaching Bush. They shut off his mic and he got more agitated. At that point the cops started to remove him. He then started flailing wildly and screaming “help help help” like a little girl at the beach. That is where it became resisting and an arrest. Should the haver tasered him? I don’t know, they could have busted his head with their clubs I guess.
raven @ 87 –
thanks for trying to explain, raven. got to say i still don’t understand. or if i do, i couldn’t disagree more…. and that we would disagree so very strongly on this is shocking to me.
oh, well….
selise @ 88
I am sorry and I know this is an unpopular interpretation to most people here. Maybe I should just shut up.
raven @ 89
no, please don’t!
if that’s what you think, i think it’s right for you to say so and to defend your position (’course, i’m gonna do the same *g*).
thank you again for trying to explain. i’m glad you didn’t “just shut up”
raven @ 37
Sure. How about just letting the kid be loud for a while, while everyone leaves the room, and he is just standing there. It’s somehow “better” that he was attacked by 5 people whose jobs is to attack people who don’t knuckle under when told to? The authorities, I use the term very loosely, made a mountain out of a mole hill. It would have been nice if Kerry had made a stink when the uniforms began to hassle the kid.
Update 12:15am 9/18. UF student Tyler Antar was there and e-mails his account of what happened. Looks like there was more to the story than meets the eye:
So I went to the John Kerry town hall forum this morning trying to get students registered to vote. I run a student government organization called Chomp the Vote. Anyway I went inside to watch the event. Senator Kerry took the podium and began delivering a speech about the Middle East, Iraq, dimplomacy, etc. Anyway, after he was done, a university ambassador asked Kerry a few premade questions. Once that was over, Senator Kerry announced he would take questions from the students. There were two
microphones placed on each side of the aisle. One on my side and the other on Andrew Meyer’s side. Senator Kerry began answering the student’s questions from each aisle. Eventually it was announced that there would only be a few more questions answered. Since Meyer and I were both in the back of each line, it did not seem likely that our questions would be answered.
However, while Senator Kerry was responding to a student’s question, all of a sudden Meyer rushed to the microphone with cops in pursuit. At that point no one knew what was going on. Could he have a gun, a bomb? Immediately, Meyer began yelling into the microphone that he had been waiting in line forever and that Senator Kerry should “spend time to answer everyone’s questions!” Senator Kerry tried to calm the student down by telling him that he would “stay here as long as it takes to get the questions answered.” The police approached Meyer who began taunting them by saying “what! are you going to taser me? are you going to arrest me?!” The police grabbed Meyer, but Senator Kerry asked the
police to let him go and that he would answer his question. Senator Kerry finished answering the other student’s question and then proceeded with Meyer. (*This entire scene is not in any video I can find so far. This is why 2 cops are seen right behind Meyer at the start of some videos*).
Meyer approached the microphone and began to talk about a book he had which stated that Kerry won the 2004 election because of disenfranchisement of black voters and faulty voter machines that produced “Bush” as the winner. He then posed another question about why President Bush had not been impeached. “President Clinton was impeached because of a bl*wjob, why not Bush?”. The third and strangest question he posed to Senator Kerry was asking him if he was part of the skull and bones society with Bush at
Yale. Meyer’s mic cut off after that, probably because he had mentioned the word “bl*wjob”. The cops grabbed him, but Meyer was able to get away several times. Eventually more cops were brought in to help subdue Meyer. Meyer continued to resist arrest, scream, curse; however he was enventually subdued by about six cops up around the entrance. As he is on the ground, he is told several times to put his hands around his back. He is also warned that he will be tasered if he does not comply. Eventually he is tasered twice. The video does not show whether he complied or not.
Senator Kerry was trying to answer his question to the audience, mostly the one about faulty voter machines. I am a die hard conservative Republican but I do respect Senator Kerry for trying to soothe the situation as best he could and trying not to escalate the situation. He DID intervene by letting the student at least present his question. I never received an opportunity to ask my question, but when Senator Kerry ended the show after the Meyer incident, he did come off stage to shake hands and give autographs. At that point, I was able to ask him my question, shake his hand, and get a autograph at the same time. Now why couldn’t Andrew Meyer do that?
I don’t know if this is relevant or not, but Andrew Meyer is a former sports writer for the school newspaper The Alligator. In his columns, he has been known to make ridiculous statements in order to gain attention for himself. Was today a publicity stunt?
[Mod: edited to clear filters]
Lame excuses from a lame party and Presnit. Hold their feet to the fire. America is behind the troops.
Enjoy.