It seems like only yesterday I wanted to put my head through a wall when Hillary Clinton decided to pile on John Kerry on the eve of the 2006 election, just as the right wing was swarming him over his bad joke. It’s just such a basic, elemental principle at play here — you don’t help the right wing out by repeating their talking points, ever. Why was this so hard to grasp?
But here we are, almost a year later, and Hillary seems to have internalized that principle very well. Because when baited by Rudy Giuliani and offered the chance to frag MoveOn over their Petraeus ad, she thought the better of it:
Rudy Giuliani is dropping in the polls and is unable to defend his own support for George Bush’s failed war. Instead of distorting Senator Clinton’s record in the campaign’s first attack ad, the Mayor should tell voters why he thinks sticking with the Bush Iraq strategy makes sense. The country wants change and while Hillary Clinton is focused ending the war, Mayor Giuliani is playing politics.
Bravo. Hillary seizes the opportunity to pivot and attack — forcing Rudy into embracing George Bush and his horribly unpopular war. She sticks the landing.
Elizabeth Edwards? Not so much. You would think that she of all people should know about the asymmetrical intimidation problem that Paul Krugman talks about — the one where the media is afraid to go after Rudy Guiliani for claiming he’s a rescue worker, but they’ll try to demolish John Edwards over a haircut because they know that they’ll get hammered by the right wing noise machine for the former and pay no price for the latter.
But I guess not, because she decided instead to join with such leading moral barometers as Diaper Dave Vitter and John “McCarthy” McCain to attack MoveOn. So did John Kerry, whom one would expect to know better by this point in time. Granted, we really don’t expect much better from Joe Biden — somehow he continues to find the obvious quite elusive. So I guess we have to say it once again until everyone gets it — you never repeat right wing talking points to attack your own, ever. You never enter that echo chamber as a participant. Ever. You never give them a cudgel to beat the left with.
Just. Don’t. Do. It.
The quite simple fact of the matter is that last week’s carefully orchestrated dog-and-pony show just bought us several more Friedman Units of war, and all that cabbage on Petraeus’s chest had its desired effect — politicians were so afraid of criticising a military man they couldn’t say what needed to be said, namely that Petraeus is betraying the trust of the American public by using his credibility as a General to present George Bush’s politicized and inaccurate facts to Congress. The war is not going swimmingly, it’s a full on, four-flushing disaster and the entire country knows it. Rather than turning around and kicking MoveOn in an overweening desire to have the right wing pat them on the head, maybe everyone should remember that their failure to criticize Colin Powell for the very same reasons five years ago bought us this mess in the first place, and be thankful that someone is injecting some skepticism into the conversation this time around.
Much hand wringing has ensued in the wake of the ad, and Enron Ed and Karl Rove’s short term strategy to pillory MoveOn may have George Bush’s desired effect of driving all the Republicans to his defense. As Digby observed, it certainly hornswoggled the media into missing the real story. But what did they really buy along with those Friedman Units? In forcing all the Republicans to rally ’round George Bush, they’ve left them no room to run in 2008. Says Bill Schneider:
It probably contributed to the affect that I described earlier, which is that Republicans were expected to rally behind the president. This probably gave them a little more fire.
And as you indicated and as Candy said, that could be very damaging to Republicans in the long run because they feel like they’re forced to stick with this president and this policy and the political damage could be catastrophic.
I don’t expect useless DLC consultants who are advising Harry Reid to hump the leg of the GOP like a neutered terrier to understand it, but driving Republicans into the waiting arms of George Bush and making them take ownership of this war could be the best thing to happen to Democrats in 2008. That MoveOn plans to go straight at uber fraud Rudy Giuliani today for the same betrayal of trust he displayed when he decided to abandon his responsibilities on the Iraq Study Group is to their credit.
Nobody wants to deal with this messy war, but our representatives are not going to be allowed to punt this time around. Many are going to get banged up and bruised in the process but that’s just how it’s going to go down.
Good for MoveOn for being willing to say what needs to be said and take the hit. Democrats should take their cues from Hillary Clinton when asked about their efforts and seize the opportunity to wrap this war around the exposed necks of the GOP.
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Jane!
BADA BING!
Jane:
Edit: Elizabeth Edwards? Not so much. You would
thinksthink that… [Mod: Got it, and thanks]Morning Jane, gotta admit, I’m leaning more toward Hillary every day.
Typo alert ; )
“You would thinks that she of all people should know about the asymmetrical”
CNN just reported that the Iraqi Interior Ministry has just revoked Blackwater’s license to operate in Iraq. Anybody know anything?
Diane @ 4
This might help disabuse you of that:
http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/co….._on_israel
Well it really pains me to give any props to Hillary, but you’re absolutely right. She stuck the landing on that one.
It’s like someone has secretly poisoned most of the Democratic Party in Washington with that “fear gas” from Batman Begins. No matter how much rational evidence you present to them, they revert to reactionary, thoughtless behavior every time the Right shouts “Boo!”
We in our house are not fans of the DLC and are particulary wary of those with close connections to Harold Ford Jr. and his little bunch. Is there something we’re missing?
Sounds like time to donate to MoveON again. I am also glad to see Hillary starting to show the cajones we’ve always known she’s had.
Rover’s been a busy little bee, hasn’t he? There’s been an enhanced stench in the beltway since his ‘retirement’ announcement that can only be attributed to Rove.
As I posted yesterday on a thread at The Left Coaster:
My short answer to Timmy Russert asking for denouncement of the Moveon ad:
Well Tim, MoveOn is an organization of almost 4 million Americans expressing an understandable sense of outrage over the deceitful loss of American lives and treasure in a war that was never necessary and which should never have been fought. While I may not have chosen to use the language they did, as soon as the same people who for years, have continually accused Democrats and anyone opposed to this ill conceived war of being traitors, appeasers and even surrender monkeys, stop their own disgraceful behavior, I will try to work up enough outrage over this grassroots ad.
Why don’t we just stick it right back to the porky pundits when they demand we show outrage? New Rule: never eat your own.
In one more Freidman Unit (FU), Move On will look like geniuses. Everyone (not just Sean Penn) will know that Move On was right. Let them clutch at their pearls now. They will pay for it later. Move On will be vindicated.
HRC? No thanks. We will vote for this person in the ‘general’. If we have to. Now that’s a fine recommendation.
While I agree with Jane that Elizabeth Edwards should not give the right more ammunition to attack progressives, I do not think Elizabeth to needs to bend over to the left (FDL bloggers or anyone) when she disagrees with some strategy or “add”. There was a way for Edwards to simply say that she did not like it without giving them ammunition. How about “I did not agree with the add, but the add did not kill anyone” (Chris Matthews line “the add has not killed anyone”.
Great to witness Clinton “pivot and attack”.
I still like John Edwards stance on the war much better than Hillarys
MoveOn was right. Petraeus MUST be assumed to be betraying us because that’s precisely what his employers have obviously been doing big time, for many years now. He’s simply the latest mouthpiece for them. Absolutely nothing more.
It would be dangerous to assume otherwise.
Just called Senator Reid’s office to thank him. (CHS’s blog this morning)
http://reid.senate.gov/contact/email_form.cfm
202-224-3542
Even Frank Rich, one of the most skeptical people in MSM, also smacks down the MoveOn.org ad:
(NYTimes link behind TimesSelect firewall.)
Question: Is Rudy still considered “Mayor Guilliani?”
The country wants change and while Hillary Clinton is focused ending the war, Mayor Giuliani is playing politics.
I just do not think that HRC will be evenhanded in her approach to the core problems facing us in the Middle East.
Diane @ 4
Please no! Her nomination would be the best thing that happens to the Repugs…
Biodun @ 18
uh, not so much.
OT..and re-post..but some thoughts about Right wing talking points and HRC:
Hillary Clinton: It Takes A Woman – and A Village
by eriposte
link
ccmask @ 19
For better or worse, Rudy will be “America’s Mayor” for as long as he lives.
To put it in the langauge of those who dream of cabbage-encrusted jackets, that’s called a shot across the bow.
It’s a warning that the next shot is directed at the bridge.
There are some fine candidates on the Blue America list already, and perhaps a few more progressive primary challengers may emerge to join them.
This dovetails in nicely with what I’ve been thinking recently. That is that the Dem really have to develop a much thicker skin. The right wing is always on the look out for molehills that they can make into mountains. The Democratic leadership has to be able to just shrug this shit off. Otherwise they will always be on the defensive and effectually neutered.
ccmask @ 19
Even after leaving office, the protocol is to address a former office holder by their highest rank, so yes, Rudy is still eligible to be addressed as Mayor. Just as Big Dog, Bush I, Ford, and Carter are all “Mr President” etc.
Is HRC divisive within the ranks of progressives and the left wing?
kudos to HRC.
i don’t think i can give up on calling the Ds in congress “cowards” when they capitulate to the Rs. luckily, i don’t think it matters what i say.
selise @ 22:
Thanks for that link. I’ll peruse that and see whether I can change my mind…*g*
Kathleen @ 15
I think again, the example that Kos used (can’t find it now) for his response can only help Elizabeth out in the long run.
Jane “Democrats should take their cues from Hillary Clinton when asked about their efforts and seize the opportunity to wrap this war around the exposed necks of the GOP.”
Horseshit. The Democrats who voted for the 2002 war resolution should take full responsibility for their votes, apologize(as Edwards has done) and explain the detailed reasoning for their vote and then move to the next step.
You cannot completely moveon with a person, candidate or community until the mistake is fully acknowledged. (otherwise always an undercurrent). Edwards has dealt with that undercurrent by acknowledging his very serious mistake.
I’m happy to see people getting behind the “betrayal of trust” theme that I tried to kick-start a year ago.
CC- I live in South Texas, not Fla. But you couldn’t have told that from our crazy summer weather. We had one 100 degree day all summer, more cloudy days than sunny, and 20 to 30 inches of rain. Last summer was hot and dry and the orchids that could live outside under the trees I had to spray or water everyday. This year I built a shade house and in the middle of the ongoing deluge I had to put plastic over the top so that my catts in pots could dry out! My Vandas of course were and are in heaven, since they grow in baskets with no medium.
Biodun @ 24
One can only hope at this point :)
Biodun @ 30
fair enough!
Jane, your post is right on. As a great admirer of Frank Rich, I was dissapointed in his column of yesterday. He, too, seems to have missed the importance of the MoveOn.org political advertisement. His worry that the ad was a distraction was, in my view, ill-placed. Rather, it focused attention on the fallibility of the reporting. A play on the General’s surname, to make a point on war and peace, seems to be something he could handle going through life with the nickname of “peaches”. He is a public figure, with a record of both good and bad judgments. Since he was put on a pedestal by Bush for his own purposes, it was essential that he be shown as a guy who puts his pants on, one leg at a time. It, also, was effective in that the General’s testimony, and Bush’s exploitation of it, did not get the usual free media pass.
Can you believe we are still on the add
Kathleen @ 32
Exactly. Cut the mincing and parsing and admit your errors.
Swopa @ 33
another goracle!
good sparring from HRC, too bad it is just rhetoric.
Anyone who says that a nuclear first strike against a country that poses no threat to the USA is an “option that is on the table”, perfectly echoing Darth Cheney’s own phrase, is not someone who is “focused on ending the war.”
as she was quoted somewhere recently, she is focussing on getting the military ready for the next war.
Oh gawd. One fine day I won’t have to hear two words. Bush and Clinton.
Gnome de Plume @ 34
Nice. I have mine in my trees. I have large trees and I run thin chains from tree to tree. Keeps them in the shade. I would love a greenhouse. Someday…
Kathleen @ 38
amazing amplification of one $70K ad!
Frank Rich is wrong. The General got his nick-name from his own subordinates. Move On picked it up. It is as natural as Bush and Shrub. After 8 years of Karl Rove’s zany hijinx, does Rich really believe that the public can’t handle a little nick name word game? There was a question mark after all and the body of the ad raises legitimate points. If you want someone to read something, you’ve got to get their attention.
Drop It and Move On. People are dying in another bogus war that can’t be won. Rich’s editorializing only emboldens the ignorant. What about free speech?
Smgumby @ 6
TPMmuckraker has something.
And, great post, Jane. Definitely needs to be said, repeatedly.
There are so many talented, non-triangulating Democrats out there.
O/t but maybe there’s a little connection -
On Wash Journo this morning there was a guy named Paul Waldman (Senior Fellow?) from Media Matters. Talked about the research they did on bias in MSM. Wasn’t able to give 100% attention to what he & callers said but he seemed to be very articulate with facts/figures/responses readily available. Never heard of him before but he certainly appeared to be the kind of representative for progressives that is almost nonexistent. More like this, please.
Every time a democrat learns this lesson, an angel gets its wings.
And another life can be saved from war, poverty and disease.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 9
No.
The bottom line: Can one distrust the DLC and at the same time trust a DLC Team Leader?
DeminNewJ @ 12
shi* I missed Russert’s comment?
Kathleen @ 32
Agreed. And look at the supplemental they just caved in on, as well.
They’ve partnered up with Bush on the war.
Enablers are as bad as the criminals. The enablers help the criminals to thrive and continue to wreak their death and destruction.
Every Dem enabler reasonably possible should be primaried and thrown out for what they’ve done.
OT..More Spine?
(snip)
TPM
Pachacutec @ 49
& environmental degradation! great comment, Pach!
hackworth @ 45
There was a funny cartoon about this in the San Francisco Chronicle last week (see center panel).
Waccamaw @ 48
Paul Waldman was part of a blog I read daily a few years back. Someone else will have to remember the name of the blog, but a lot of well known voices on the left came out or posted there. Laura Rozen was one.
BTW, gang:
I hate to admit (and I risk being skewered here, my most beloved of places): The MoveOn ad has been a distraction. That’s what is still generating considerable ink across the ideological divide.
Exactly, Jane.
“Good for MoveOn for being willing to say what needs to be said and take the hit.”
Reminds me of why I always hit the FDL p*y p*l button first. MoveOn right after that.
Biodun @ 58
Time to pivot & attack Ghouliani with the help of Moveon!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 47
OKK, you don’t have to endorse her, or even agree with her on anything else, but isn’t it possible to admit that perhaps, just once, maybe Hillary did something good?
Pivot and attack. She refused Rudy’s bait, and threw Bush back in his face. Well done, and worth repeating by every democrat in every race in every state.
jane hampsher
you say this so well.
YES!!!
fight,
and fight back.
rolling over on your back may be good social strategy for dogs,
but it’s deadly for democrats.
Swopa @ 56
All three of those cartoons are hilarious!
Some do not consider HRC a very good Democrat. And will vote accordingly in the primary.
Mod:
Per my 3, can you please fix this:
(Jane might not still be at the Lake…)
1,601 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Hamsher and the Firepup Patriots:
“Democrats should take their cues from Hillary Clinton when asked about their efforts and seize the opportunity to wrap this war around the exposed necks of the GOP.”
What the fuck??!! Follow Mrs. Clinton’s cues in puttin’ the blame for this war on the GOP and let her and the rest of the corporate Democrats off the hook??? Jane, dear Jane, of all the people who should understand it’s you…if Mrs. Clinton wanned to she could get the Democratic leadership in BOTH houses of Congress to support rescinding the war authorization and immediately withdraw. She doesn’t, however, because she doesn’t want this war to end until there is partition of Iraq and a permanent US occupation of the oil fields in a rump Sunni state.
Come on Jane…Elizabeth Edwards made a mistake, take her to task for it but don’t leverage it into a Clinton campaign slogan.
KEEP THE FAITH, PASS THE AMMUNITION AND BECAREFUL WHAT YER SHOOTIN’ AT!!
Biodun @ 58
I don’t agree that it has been a distraction. I don’t think we’ve neglected the other issues that we constantly need to tend to. Perhaps it was an MSM distraction until OJ got himself arrested.
Steve-AR @ 54
Senator Leahy looks like god to me, and so does Helen Thomas.
Their actions and integrity are certainly what I imagine god (if there is such a force to be reckoned with) to be like.
Biodun @ 58
not sure i agree… but since reconsideration of previously held views is in the air today… *g*
i don’t watch much corporate news, so perhaps i’ve really got it wrong on that. to be fair i should defer to you and others who do monitor the MSM.
but, even if you’re right… isn’t it better than being distracted by OJ? at least it get the issue of dishonesty and iraq a mention? or is my lack of MSM exposure got my thinking screwed up?
Hehe! Good for her campaign. Because Republikan attacks these days are always meant to deflect from the real problem *cough* which is themselves.
You nicely tied everything together in that post.
“OKK, you don’t have to endorse her, or even agree with her on anything else, but isn’t it possible to admit that perhaps, just once, maybe Hillary did something good?”
Perhaps that’s true. And I’ve heard it said that no matter what, there is some good in everyone.
s/
Clinton and Obama will get the “symbolic gestures” right, while ceding the actual votes to the “can I have another please, Sir” strategists.
Edwards (John, not his wife) has taken a stronger stance, as he should, seeing as how he has no votes to count.
The problem with congresscritters running for President, as I see it, is that their objective is the White House, and Congressional Leadership is secondary.
Here’s a way to spin this back. President Bush gives everyone a nickname. Why can’t Move On? The President calls his brain Turd Blossom, fergodsakes. He calls Arlen Specter a Mealy Mouth Pain In The Ass, etc.
Yep, excellent pivot/spin/yaw/tilt/pitch on Hillary’s part. Perhaps she didn’t find the original ad as offensive as EE did given the latter’s military family background.
I wonder what would happen if moveon ran an ad that everyone agreed was offensive. Let’s say this hypothetical ad’s slogan read: “all republicans = child molesters.” This isn’t meant to be a comparison with the original ad, but a pure hypothetical.
In such a case, would it still be necessary to rotate/tumble/stop drop and roll and attack? Or would it then be tactically ok to distance oneself from it?
In other words, is there a hypothetical line that can be crossed where a democratic politician is justified in distancing himself from moveon? Or is somersault and attack an absolute?
54
Senator Leahy looks and acts like god to me, and so does Helen Thomas.
Both of these individuals actions and integrity are certainly what I imagine god (if there is such a force to be reckoned with) to be like.
. . . And we should never let Republikans get away from the real problem for a minute, which is themselves. And it would be nice, if pretty soon the Repugs found it a hopeless tactic to deflect onto moveon, Cindy Sheehan etc.
Gnome de Plume @ 67
Yep: It has been an MSM distraction. That’s what really counts, isn’t it? /snark
I do agree with the OJ. MSM will make as much football (pun intended) with it as possible.
(As an aside, it would be quite ironic if OJ did time with this one–rather than doing time for… oh well, never mind.)
This is not just George’s war. It belongs to all that voted to attack Iraq and kill men women and children.
Jane, please, please, give up “war”. It has not been such since Bush’s “Mission Accomplished!” which was when Saddam ad been ousted and his army routed.
It is much stronger to nail Bush/Cheney for the failed Occupation which succeeded the warfare.
selise @ 69:
I do have an open mind. Honestly…*g*
Oklahoma kiddo @ 72
Hillary’s voting record has done a great deal of good, and somehow I trust her completely on the health care issue. The I/P issue, Iran, Iraq…I have my questions.
Swopa @ 33
Eli Pariser of Move On was on teevee the other day (on Tweety’s show I think) and when asked what moveon means by Betrayus, he said “betrayal of trust”. I thought that was the best response of the segment, and it has really stuck with me. Now I know its origin.
petwrecker @ 73
another brilliant and snarky comment, Petwrecker!
I trust everyone remembers that the “Betrayus” tag came to us all from Petraeus’s soldiers in Iraq, and reminds their Republican buddies of the fact..
schwifty @ 76
…..Metalogues” in “Steps to an Ecology of Mind”
“Mad men see outlines and therefore they draw them.”
Daughter: But which does he mean? I don’t understand.
Father: Well, William Blake – that was his name – was a great artist and a very angry man. And sometimes he rolled up his ideas into little spitballs so that he could throw them at people.”
Generals are political animals by definition. They make the strategic decisions, which means they work closely with the civilian politicians. And when one, while on active duty, pens an op-ed intended to sway a presidential election he crosses the line from respected military voice to political hack. Petraeus was chosen to run the surge specifically because he agreed to use his military background to help sell Bush’s political aims. And then to let the White House PR office set up shop in his lap makes his political purpose even more blatant.
This is so simple, I wish the pearl clutchers would try and think through the obviousness. I don’t need anyone telling me what’s appropriate and not, war is about people dying.
Kathleen @ 83
Check out her universal health
insurancecare. Semantics are everything.you never repeat right wing talking points to attack your own, ever.
Notwithstand the concept that you must choose your enemies wisely, because you may become them…
your point is an imperative.
The dems must learn from the repubs what has Worked for them. And use it.
Far too long have the Republicans been more affective because they actually know where their car keys are, while the Democrats are still looking around the house for the other shoe to put on before they can leave the house.
Gnome de Plume @ 67
Neither do I. Some might call it a distraction, but I welcome it as an event that crystallizes stances on the issue. Separate the wheat from the chaff
Biodun @ 82
of that i have no doubt. i’m just trying to follow your excellent lead… maybe not doing so well. too many questions in my mind…
what she said.
may we deserve the “spineless” mantra if we don’t stand up and tell these war crazed pimps their boondoggle is over
kdh22 @ 85
thanks kdh22, just calling a ghoul a ghoul!
petwrecker @ 87
Very clever, but the hypothetical stands. I’m not trolling: honest. Is there a line that can be crossed or isn’t there?
We will think Move On to have been portentious in six months – because they will have been. The ad is a good thing. Petrayus can’t fix the mess. It will be worse in a freidman unit.
Maybe I missed something, but was Hillary asked Directly about the ad? Because if not, then while she/front runner has gone after he/front runner and good on her, I am not sure she would not distance herself as others have, from the MoveOn.
So I wait to hear.
((((((Mods!)))))
is that true? the soldiers coined “betrayus” first?
that is argument number 1. Why isn’t anyone using that fact?
selise @ 40
Speaking of Gore (I know, it’s only an expression and you really weren’t talking of Gore,) nice to see he’s picked up another major award. Now he has an Oscar, an international emmy, and an Emmy (for his “current TV”.) Soon on to the Nobel Peace Prize, and then, God willing, the nomination for the Presidency of the US. Then on to the White House, hopefully with Dr. Howard Dean as his VP.
Schumer CSPAN 2
schwifty @ 95
of course. there’s lots of lines that shouldn’t be crossed… for example:
no lying
no hate speech
maunga @ 86
Yes. My point is that the thugs are screaming about the mean moveon hippies slandering a war hero. The “betrayal of trust” response neuters the thug argument.
Yeah, well if Kerry had won in 1004 then Hillary would not have had much of a shot at 2008 so that kind of makes sense in a sick way.
Its also not much of a suprise given that MoveOn put people in a position to take the attention away from what was being said and require that the Dems support a message that American generals are traitors (real tactful for a politician to do, and sure to get the soldiers home super fast). After general a,b,c Bush will just trot out x,y, and z.
I think if MoveOn was smart they would have taken out a full page ad and had the banner “Progress like in 2004?” and then bring up one simple item which is the 2004 Op-Ed.
OT:
I watched the Steak Fry speeches and still think there is only one candidate I believe.
1,601 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Biodun and the Firepup Patriots:
“…I have to admit, the Move On ad has been a distraction.”
Take my hand, citizen, it’s OK, you ken some out from behind the coffee table, those big bad anti-war progressives won’t make the Nazis mad at you…’cuz they’re laughin atcha.
The Move On ad has not been a distraction…it focuses attention on the war and the extent to which it diverts attention from what Petraeus and the fascists are saying depends on how much people like you are willin to let the corporate media and the MINORITY fascist Republicans divert your attention. “Many are going to get banged up and bruised but that’s just the way it’s gunna go down.” That means you too , citizen Biodun, you are part of the fascist opposition, don’t think for a moment that if you speak nicely to them, the fascists won’t be so hard on you…support your brothers and sisters and put the heat on the Democrats who shit in our nest and support this fascist war.
KEEP THE FAITH AND REMEMBER WHO THE FUCKIN’ ENEMY IS, GOD DAMMIT!!!
Kathleen @ 83
This is the woman who has taken much money from the pill industry. This is a woman who voted for the Iraq attack. This is an individual who does not have an even handed approach on the Israeli-Palestinian situation. This is a person who cannot seem to admit to a mistake. HRC? No thank you.
Perhaps we shall just have to disagree. I will not support HRC in the Democratic primary.
kdh22 @ 85
Not MUSLIM, but from “Arabic”, as does the word “alcohol”. An awful lotof the Englis language came from somewhere else.
You are joining te Republican demonising by saying “Muslim”. Actually “ghoul” is probably most used in Scotland, so watch out for putting we Jocks noses out of joint, or we shall force you to eat cold haggis with a black pudding chaser.
Just as an aside: I haven’t heard the proprietor endorse a candidacy here. Just pointing out some smart tactics.
schwifty @ 95
we don’t answer hypotheticals! s/
Steve-AR @ 54
Leahy threatened this when Gonzo resigned. Glad to see him sticking to his guns.
bg @ 97
In his own NYTimes ad, Rudy directly attacked Hillary for not denouncing the MoveOn.org ad in the NYTimes. Hillary’s response to Rudy’s ad is what Jane is talking about above.
Peterr @ 61
Well I share OKK’s disdain for Ms. Clinton, but I do wish someone with a little integrity would learn from her tactics. And as I said in an earlier post, I have to give her credit for taking the right approach to this. As much as I don’t like to give her credit for anything.
And I don’t think Jane’s post was anything even remotely like a Hillary endorsement. I just took it as an illustration of a good tactic. It just so happened Hillary was the one who used it.
oldtree @ 99
linky, anyone? This is the first time I’m hearing of this…
maunga @ 107
;~p
Thanks, Biodun.
OK, I give her credit. I was registering voters last week at our state fair. The Hillary buttons were the most popular. . .though I don’t get it, personally.
petwrecker @ 109
I know where the hypothetical ads are. They’re in the area around moveon, and east, west, south, and north somewhat.
I’ve already said what I think of the moveon headline so I won’t repeat it. On thing I think would be interesting would be to get a copy of Patreaus’s Bronze Star citation. The wingnuts keep calling him a hero and his Star has a V device which means it for “Valor”. As far as I can determine he was gut shot by a trainee on the range at Ft Campbell and broke his leg in a civilian sky diving incident. Maybe the Swift Boat Vets for Truth could look into it since they are such fucking experts on heroism and medal inflation.
ROFLMAO.
Brava Jane, bullseye, as per usual!
raven @ 117
I believe that I read somewhere that he had never been in combat. Is that likely?
Never too late to say {{{Jane}}}!
Biodun @ 113
Here is the link that I foune.link
I don’t have a link for the origin of Betrayus, but I have read that it came from soldiers–I just don’t remember where.
NorskeFlamethrower @ 105:
I swear I’m not part of the fascist opposition. I swear. I really do. But:
I did sleep at the Holiday Inn last night…
Shrub is like a subprime borrower
and as result of his bad behavior he is going to lose the house (senate whitehouse etc. and a lot of property throught the us as well )
No one is proud to be a gooper anymore
SufiLizard @ 111
Agreed.
And if Hillary can do it, so can Biden, Obama, Edwards, Richardson, . . .
There are no royalties that you need to pay to use it, folks: just pivot and attack.
Twain @ 119
Nope. I think he was a field commander in both the 1st Gulf war and with the Pukin Buzzard (101st) in this debacle.
Kathleen @ 32
It’s not enough to admit a mistake when you’re running for President because it helps you. You need to show that you learned something from it.
Edwards hasn’t learned the fundamental lesson of the Iraq vote, because he is willing to talk about war with Iran. I have not been able to get any response from his campaign on what he meant when he said “Americans can be educated to come along with what needs to be done with Iran.” I think it means that bombing Iran is an acceptable option.
Rather than asking them to keep talking about their 2002 votes, we should be asking all the candidates why they are not demanding that the Congress take away Bush’s authority to start another war.
Biodun @ 123
Is it possible to sleep at a hotel/motel that isn’t part of the fascist opposition?
EvilDrPuma @ 128
That’s why I always do the tent camping thing.
That, and it’s affordable.
And, the back to nature thing.
(Although, there might be some mom/pop motels somewhere…
i for one was a bit surprised at elizabeth edwards comment re the moveon ad…particularly after the winger attack on her hubby’s haircut… now wingers saying even mrs edwards has attacked that ad… repeat… do not give wingers license to use your words to attack any progressive or liberal ideas… right on jane for saying what i’m trying to say..
No first Gulf War but here’s where the Bronze Star probably came from:
In 2003, Petraeus, then a major general, commanded the 101st Airborne Division during V Corps’s drive to Baghdad. In a campaign chronicled in detail by Rick Atkinson of the Washington Post’s book In the Company of Soldiers, Petraeus led his division through the battles of Karbala, Hilla, and Najaf (where he came under fire during an ambush by Iraqi paramilitary forces).
demi @ 129
Unfortunately, tent-camping at a professional meeting is a little tricky.
Helpless Dancer @ 121:
Thanks for the link. But where did groupnewsblog.net get its own info from?
bg @ 115
My grandmother told me so many times, “many wrongs do not make a right”. And my 99 year old auntie who is an ardent, life long FDR Demo, wouldn’t have a Hillary button in the house.
selise @ 44
No bad news. In fact, pandering to me instead of Dobsonites is newsworthy — even if it takes the predictable turn with the neocon-enabling press.
juslin @ 130
Folks, these candidates are going to bend over backward to prove they are not “anti-military”.
murtha’s talk this morning at the NPC is being replayed on c-span2 right now – just starting.
Helpless Dancer @ 121
I am sorry, but I cannot find a real link, but it was mentioned in Democratic Underground on June 18th.
Josh prob has the attribution!
EvilDrPuma @ 132
Ahhh, see your point. Fortunately, I’m not a professional.
Raven’s a great researcher. Might we find out if there are any hotel/motel chains that are not tied to facist pigs?
Here’s a link on the the “General Betraeus” theme.
Would Hillary be better than any Republican? Yes. And that’s not saying much.
EvilDrPuma @ 128:
You did get that Holiday Inn reference, didn’t you?
Headlines are suppose to attract attention, and MoveOn’s did that. Of course, the right used their classic faux indignation ploy to keep the attention fixed on the headline rather than flowing to the message of the ad. The problem for the left was to drag the attention forward. Kos did that ever so deftly in his interview on Hardball, but too many others got distracted. The point is that even by defending the ad, one plays into the Republican’s game. And, even a direct counter attack has the appearance of defensiveness. The proper tactic, the one that Kos used like a judo expert, is to ask, “Why are we talking about a mere headline when the subject at hand is whether or not to continue a war that is killing thousands, costing billions, and doing nothing for the American people.” Bang! Now we’re back on topic and the right has been spanked for getting us off topic.
Biodun @ 142
Apparently not.
demi @ 139
I don’t know about chain’s but there are a hell of a lot of motel’s that are owned by our Pakistani brethren!
MayDaze @ 46
Just read the first few paragraphs of the muckraker column, and all I can say is: OH, OH, Houston, we have a problem.
Either Iraq is a sovereign country with a rightfully elected government, or they’re not. Apparently, the US thinks they are only sovereign when it suits our own interests. And it doesn’t suit our interests for the Iraqis to throw out our hired thugs and marauders. We want them to be free to roam the streets to kill civilians at will, or rape and injure Iraqi citizens if they so desire. The Iraqis are free to kill Al Qaeda and throw them out, but they are not free enough to throw us out for the exact same things. Lovely.
BTW, good post, Jane. I agree.
EvilDrPuma..
From google, this Green Hotel link.
Well said, Jane. Sen. Levin also criticized MoveOn on CBS Face the Nation — he said the personal attack “has no place” in our discourse — no qualification.
Haven’t read all of the comments (just the first half) but I was wondering if Rudy has gotten his wrist slapped yet for using Patraues’s image in a campaign? As far as I know, because MoveOn is not running for president, it was okay for them. But what about (MaryLou) Rudy?
Somewhat OT If you want a capsulized view of what the candidates are each emphasizing, go to the CSPAN site and watch the speeches from the Harkin Steak Fry yesterday. I was there, and it was a record crowd of 18,000. They were all good, and trying to put their best foot forward. They have a lot in common, but the differences are telling.
The frontrunners clearly spent an obscene amount of money, on everything from plastic megaphones (HRC) and tambourines (Edwards) to bussing in supporters from Nebraska to increase their numbers.
Biodun @ 133
I really do not know. I have no problems believing it though. If he really did blow off securing the arms depots, I can understand why the troops might feel that way. The fact that huge explosive caches that just disappeared is well documented. Glory at your troops expense is the very worst thing a commander can do.
demi @ 147
Thanks. None in Vancouver, sad to say. That’ll be my destination in March.
“bussing in supporters from Nebraska to increase their numbers.”
who did that
and where is it written that the military command can not be critized? when one has charge over soldiers and can place them in harms way – of course they must be scrutinized criticised and brought up before congress if they make decisions that maybe wrong… they are not gods…..petraeus is a person who wants to give bushco what he wants and petraeus will be looking for his lucrative reward after retiring… he’s been a brownnoser for awhile in the words of a former boss of his.. cant remember the name
EvilDrPuma @ 152
Here’s a swell place in the San Juan’s, you could commute! Doe Bay
juslin @ 154
Admrial William Fallon.
And he’s Petraeus’ current boss.
katherine Graham Cracker @ 153
I saw the signs on two Edwards buses, but there were at least six buses there. I do not know whose they were.
EvilDrPuma @ 144
The Holiday Inn commercial.
Some of these commercials ususally end with the tagline: But I did sleep at the Holidy Inn last night.
katherine Graham Cracker @ 153
Now, theres trouble bustin in from outta state
And the d.a. cant get no relief
Gonna be a rumble out on the promenade
And the gamblin commissions hangin on by the skin of his teeth
Biodun @ 158
See, I wouldn’t know. I don’t remember the last time I watched anything but public TV.
Nice post.
Thank you for not putting your head througha wall.
ccmask @ 149
Here’s a little something from the TPM empire. And no, I don’t work for Josh. :)
Let’s step away from this for just a second to consider something which, for better or worse, is a driving issue in this conversation and that is GENDER. A lot of what Hillary does or does not do (i.e., she doesn’t apologize for her vote on Iraq; she takes money from industrial groups)stems from the fact that she is not a “nice” person. We want our female politicians to be “nice” – Nancy Pelosi is nice. Elizabeth Edwards is not only very nice, she also is carrying a halo as John Edwards’ wife, the mother of his children, and someone who is fighting cancer(can’t get much nicer than that). We want our women out there to be feisty, but also nice. Ann Coulter is feisty – but she is also very very much NOT nice. Hillary is someone who, as we used to say years ago, “saves green stamps” AND she is also not nice. She learned her lessons from what the GOP did to her and Bill Clinton during 8 years in the White House. She found out pretty quickly what “being nice” would get from them. So, perhaps we don’t like her and don’t find her palatable from a progressive standpoint, but she has earned her lumps and has survived. You may not like her, but you have to respect her – just the way we “respect” wild animals and poisonous creatures because they will not necessarily behave the way WE want them to. We want other things from our male politicians, but still, anyone who is “too nice” is going to be perceived as not being able to get anything done. John Kerry is someone who is much, much too nice. His piling on MoveOn about the ad was another one of his hand-wringing exercises in “I’m too well bred to do these things” stuff. When all is said and done, John is never ever going to be able to get his hands dirty and mix it up. Put him in a room with Hillary Clinton and I think we know who will walk out with a black eye and a bloody nose and it will not be the short person who wears black pants and colorful jackets. We all know that there are very few “nice” people in the GOP any more. Chaffee announced over the weekend that he’s taking his white gloves out of the party — too bad, because the party left him and his white gloves a long time ago. So, the question is always going to be – if the enemy is someone who fights dirty, lies, cheats, steals, and threatens to destroy our entire way of life – does it pay to be “nice”? The answer, whether it’s Hillary, or Harry Reid, of Leahy or whoever, is absolutely NOT. Being nice got the Democrats walked on and got us FISA. OK, it would be just swell for us all if Hillary would get up and say, “hey, I made a mistake and I’m sorry I voted that way.” But she knows if she does, then she is screwed – she will be seen as weak and female and someone who can be knocked around. And that would be absolutely the wrong move for someone who really has worked to be a good senator for New York (and as a resident, I think she has done a good job), and is also a terminally ambitious woman (horror of horrors) who wants to be president. John Edwards can get away with something like that because a) he’s a man, so apologizing gives him a slightly softer edge which as a male candidate works for him, and b) he’s no longer in the Senate. Hillary can NOT do that and remain a viable candidate. As a woman of the same generation as Hillary, I also understand that to be female and successful at what you do in this country, STILL, you must be twice as tough, twice as smart, and twice as fast on your feet as the average guy in order to just get the same thing. It’s not fair, it’s not NICE, but that is the way it is. My two cents.
Are the front runners interested in protecting Mother Earth?
Toby Wollin @ 163
Two words: paragraph break. Please.
edp@165
LMAO at your comment – i agree
I really dislike it when I hear someone say I’ll vote for HRC because she’s a woman. I dislike it when someone tells me I won’t vote for Hillary because she’s a woman.
When Hagel said this:
Maher: Isn’t a dirty trick on the American people when you send a military man out there to basically do a political sell-job?”
Hagel: It’s not only a dirty trick, but it’s dishonest, it’s hypocritical, it’s dangerous and irresponsible. The fact is this is not Petraeus’ policy, it’s the Bush’s policy. The military is — certainly very clear in the Constitution — is subservient to the elected public officials of this country.. but to put our military in a position that this administration has put them in is just wrong, and it’s dangerous.”
snip
…….did he mean it is dangerous because the military is speaking instead of the president and it can set a precedent that the military is in charge instead of the president?
My two cents.
Two words: paragraph break. Please.
Ha! I was going to say, more like a buck seventy-five.
I think Edwards will be our next president. I am so good at predicting presidents..I could make money in Vegas.That said..there are a lot of military bases in N.C. as well as Blackwater. Elizabeth comes from a military family. That said…Edwards did say he would not take war with Iran off the table. So he goes along with war for profit. I could not vote for him.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 72
As they say, even a broken clock is right twice a day!
MayDaze @ 162
Yes, I saw that yesterday. I was just wondering if it had come to anything. I’ll just keep watching over at TPM as I’m sure Josh will update. Thanks
Jane’s upstairs again with the new MoveOn.org ad!
murtha for president!!! watching him on cspan2 making points the nominees should be saying… imo
Citizen Biodun:
I ment “part of the ANTI-fascist opposition”…whether you like it or not. That’s the point, they aren’t gunna like you even if ya vote for ‘em so don’t piss in yer own shoes.
Waccarnaw at#48 Visit the mediamatters.org site if you’d like further info They have a lot of good people over there.
I’m with Norskeflamethrower#105. It brought attension to issues that would have otherwise been glossed over.
Per Drew Westen, its a good idea to get your opponet angry. In this case somewhere between a quarter to a third of the population. You get nowhere appeasing them, or using their frame as a basis for discussion. Dam but “The Political Brain” is not an easy read.I’m still only two thirds though it.
sporkovat @ 41
That’s what I’d be doing, too. The Wastrel in the White House has done such a good job of breaking the military, I would think it would take quite some concerted effort to rebuild it. I don’t mean “get ready to start another war” but “get ready to defend the country from attack.”
Well, Leahy’s first response to the AG nomination is pretty much what the doctor ordered: Bush took his time, so expect us to do the same; we need information before we proceed; the ball is in the WH’s court.
If he adds ‘we can’t confirm even the most qualified nominee until we know what needs to be fixed in DOJ, because the Senate needs to know he’s up to the job of fixing it’, it’ll be perfect.
the right always create a straw man from an organization and try to use that as a cudgel… i forget if it was bush sr. who used the a.c.l.u. as a club, as if “card carrying member of the a.c.l.u.” was some commie curse or something.. i remember the way the democrats squirmed around that label instead of attacking the root premise, “why would anyone not be proud to belong to an organization that protects our civil liberties?”
same here, why would anyone try to run from an organization that presents a position that the majority of the country agrees with? this is no fringe group (moveon was also in the majority for the issue that caused its creation- the clinton impeachment) the democrats need to ask why they’re running away from this- if someone is shooting at someone in your trenches, don’t whine about fire being drawn to your side, SHOOT BACK dammit.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 20
HRC will support war with Iran right off the bat.
Of course, we will be broke by then. So it really doesn’t matter.
Yeah, let’s redirect people’s attention away from what Hillary stands for. People should be hammering her with pointed questions about specific plans for the Iraq war. For instance, we don’t have any idea what she means by ‘ending the war.’ No one asked in 2006. No one’s asking now. Hillary and George are cut from the same cloth. The Chimperor has no clothes. Time to uncloak the ascendant crypto-DLCer.
Not long ago we were hit endlessly with the fact that Gen. Petraeus “wrote the manual on counterterrorism”.
That is not the issue. The issue is whether Gen. Petraeus is following his own manual because that goes to the heart of the Betray-us slam.
Now I don’t have a copy of his manual nor the data on Iraq in hand so I cannot directly speak to the point of the degree to which he is following his own manual. Some reports suggest not even close.
Fine, let’s let the chips fall where they may. Someone with access needs to conduct a compare and contrast or the manual to the current policy. They variance would represent the degree of betrayal. Somehow, I expect that it would be considerable.
Actually I would have been surprised if Hillary took the bait and fell for the diversionary attack tactics that the extreme right wing used on the Moveon’s observation of Petraues’s blatant selling of this Iraq disaster.
That she used the Guiliani’s attack on her regarding Moveon’s recent ad to focus on his current vulnerable political situation and blind devotion to Bush’s quagmire in Iraq was a move that clearly indicates that Hillary is a force that is not easily reckoned with.
Even though I do not agree with some of her strategies there is no way that Ms. Clinton would not have reacted in this precise and calculated manner.
She has always been a very smart woman, that part I will always admire….
“you never repeat right wing talking points to attack your own, ever. “
It’s so great to see that what’s right, and what’s wrong are both trumped by political expediency these days.
It is a sad commentary that anyone would support a woman who is as unlikeable and deceitful as HRC. I know several people who knew her back in highschool and she hasn’t changed a bit since then. Always working a deal or angle no matter who it hurts or damages and she never looks back as she keeps stepping on bodies.
To think that this creature might some day actually hold the reigns to the most powerful country in the world is just horrifying. And don’t toss that Margaret Thatcher around, England isn’t the USA.
I’d love to wait for the day that someone really says something to her and watch her break out crying and sobbing. It’s happened before, it’ll happen again. Won’t that be something we can be proud to see, HRC with world leaders sniffling and sobbing.
What a shame.
Well said by one lesbian about another.
[Mod Note; that’s some mighty fine critical analysis you bring to the comments.]
raven @ 159
“Everything dies, baby.
And that’s a fact.
But maybe everything that dies,
Some day, comes back.
Put yer makeup on,
Fix yer hair up pretty.
And meet me tonight,
In Atlantic City.”
*G*
You just CAN’T miss that voice of his . .
Are you so easily fooled? It is a joke to think Hillary “learned” her lesson regarding the repetition of right wing talking points. She did so against Kerry with an eye on the future, knowing full well that it would make her look more moderate. She is not bashing MoveOn b/c she is courting the left and can get away with it. Do you so easily forget her repetition of right wing talking points in her debate performances (i.e. we are safer since 911, the blame for the Iraq war failure is on Iraqis, not Bush or the congress)? Are you all so easily fooled?
Here is what EE said according to the Des Moines Register: Someone who’s spent their life in the military doesn’t deserve “General Betray Us.”
Good rule of thumb: If it’s a rational, moral thing to say, it’s a “Republican talking point.”
If it’s sleazy, disgusting or a baseless charge, it’s part of the leftist fringe echo chamber, which, dear, despite your protests to the contrary, you belong.
dachoste says:
why would anyone try to run from an organization that presents a position that the majority of the country agrees with? this is no fringe group (moveon was also in the majority for the issue that caused its creation- the clinton impeachment) the democrats need to ask why they’re running away from this- if someone is shooting at someone in your trenches, don’t whine about fire being drawn to your side, SHOOT BACK dammit.
That is why the left will once again sabotage the Democrats in ‘08, because morons like this thinks if a majority of people don’t support the war, then they must support attacking a four-star general and calling him a traitor. Breathtaking in its wishfulness though.
Rudy Giuliani is not “embrassing” George Bush’s war in the sense that you phrase it.
He is merely defended and trying to defeat the PEOPLE that want to KILL US! They want to end our way of LIFE! If we just sit back and be pansies about it, you mind as well cash your flight to Barbados soon, since you will not have much time to live. Any form of allowing the Islamic Terrorists to win is a Victory for them. Why does Hillary Clinton not get that. No matter what, it does not matter who voted for the war, because they did it. They cannot take back that action. Anyone that says that they apologized for voting to allow combat troops into Iraq is playing the political game. Has everything in Iraq gone well? NO. This is war! Things do not just happen, especially when we are dealing with people and religion. This is a fight we must stay strong in. Iraq is now a battle field between Western Civilization and Islamic Terrorist. You cannot deny that. We are there. Let us fix the problem. When the tough gets going the going gets tough. Lets be strong. Vote NO for Hillary into the White House.
To Mike- I agree that the MoveOn ad was over the top (it isn’t going to win over anybody that isn’t already won over), however, to suggest that the Republicans never do anything or say anything about Dems that is sleazy, disgusting or baseless is way over the top (you aren’t going to win over anybody that isn’t already won over).
To Jane: While the MoveOn ad was correct in suggesting that the facts presented in a way to highlight the positive and not highlight the negative, you honestly believe that the purpose of the ad, which I presume would be to convince people to agree with them, was achieved? Whose minds do you think an ad like that changes? Being respectful isn’t a bow to republicans, it is a bow to civility and self-respect. The same message could be sent without the wording, and despite the cliche, not all publicity is good publicity.
dachoste says:
why would anyone try to run from an organization that presents a position that the majority of the country agrees with?
Are you kidding me? Where do you live? A majority of the country does not make the jump from thinking Petreaus painted a rosy picture of the situation in Iraq to thinking he has betrayed his country. Not in any poll I have seen and not by anyone I have spoken with, most of whom are very liberal. Although not making that jump might not be logical, it is an emotional jump that, I believe, most people in this country are not willing to make.
If people thinks that having a Justice Department that has been politicized is bad, then I would think that having a military that is vastly politicized is even more frightening. What we witness last week was a General who sat down in military uniform and gave a political report to the country….not a militry report. MoveOn with its collective wisdom was right to nip this new adventure right in the bud.
moveon.org’s shrill antics make it look even more like the loser angry left that it already does…
no one will vote for a leftist fascist who thinks that Americans, like the owners of Holiday Inn is the “enemy”
Holiday Inn employees don’t blow up innocent civilians, abuse their own children & dance when they kill other children
moveon and the loony left are the useful idiots of the 21st century…congrats…
a Holiday Inn woman room serivce team member and minority
This article is a basically useless piece of garbage, but is instructive in one respect:
It shows that the Left does not represent, nor does it understand, the American mainstream. Yes, Americans are furious at how mishandled the Iraq war is, and want a massive redirection. Yes, the American people are sick of a mostly failed “stay the course” strategy, and think Bush has been tone deaf and has not paid attention to the political mess, and that a military solution is not sufficient to win the war. They’re sick of the same Iraq mess, sick of seeing our soldiers come back in flag-draped coffins, and are sick of not seeing an end in sight. And they feel the administration has surrounded itself with and listened to cronies and yes-men, instead of the reality of events.
But the American people do NOT want a precipitous, Vietnam-style withdrawal that would make the situation far worse than it already is, either. And they feel that slandering our military generals because they don’t vehemently disagree with the President is absolutely inappropriate and unwarranted.
ALL OF THIS is mainstream America’s position, and the far LEFT and the far RIGHT both don’t get it. By the way, try to guess my politics, based on this post. You probably can’t, because I’m not feeding you partisan Kool Aid; this is just the truth.
moveon.org’s shrill antics make it look even more like the loser angry left that it already does…
no one will vote for a leftist fascist who thinks that Americans, including the owners of Holiday Inn, are the “enemy”
Holiday Inn owners or employees don’t blow up innocent civilians, abuse their own children & dance when they kill other children
moveon and the loony left are the useful idiots of the 21st century…congrats…
Candace
a pre-law student AND a Holiday Inn room serivce team member and minority
white guilt is so ugly when it goes berserk in the form of moveon and the rest of the hate america extremist left
Democrats are such a joke. Let me get this straight. The Democrats, including both Clinton’s made the same speeches about Saddam and then voted almost unanimously to authorize war. Then things got tough and public polls changed. Some surprise, Democrats changed their view along with the polls. Many with the nerve to actually act like they were against it from the beginning. I guess they were against it before they were for it before they were against it. That sounds about right. Now we have a 4 star General who was confirmed by every Democrat to manage the war being called a liar and traitor by Democrats and MoveOn. Many of these same Democrats haven’t spent 1 second in Iraq yet they know more than a 4 star general who is there 24/7. Talk about egos. What ever happened to being able to disagree without being disagreeable. Clinton, the liberals and MoveOn are a disgrace for implying Petreus would lie about Iraq without a shred of evidence to support their accusation. It proves their absolute lack of understanding about the military to think a 4 star general is nothing more than a puppet for the President.It shouldn’t be a partisan issue to demand an apology or at least condemnation of the ad. Any rational person would see that attacking Petreus is totallyinappropriate. I guess simply saying the ad was disgraceful is too tough for Hillary and the other Democrat candidates.Democrats feel they’re strong enough to runthe country during these times of radical Islam yet they can’t even stand up and condemn an ad that so clearly crosses every line of dignity.I repeatDemocrats are ajoke.
Thanks Rob–Good job!
All I can say is that the fringe left are truly a bizarre group.
I remember when HRC endorsed the war because she knew from her days in the WH that Saddam had weapons of MD and we needed a regime change. Did Bill lie to her about Iraq?
You go Rob! Woot!
Biodun @ 1
Lordy – what a stupido you are, and NOT esteemed blog author. You can’t even spell your name right. Hampsher? LOL – how about Hampshire?
Obviously, the Hampshers are the poor and ignorant relations of the Hampshires. Get a life and please go back to school. You might even learn how to spell your name!
What a hypocrite. Sean Hannity with nice hair.
SufiLizard @ 8
Hee hee hee. Accusing republicans of succumbing to fear gas… Democrats idea of international policy is to spread soc*al*sm and avoid confronting terrorists because they might get upset and attack us.
Moveon.Org and Media Matters only have cache on the far left blogs. Once their propaganda ad about Gen. Petraeus hit The New York Times it was inevitable that it would back fire. Why Jane Hamsher figured Elizabeth Edwards needed a scolding for speaking out against the ad is as benighted as the ad itself. Maybe Jane should go back to promoting how 911 was a Bush/Israel conspiracy as proffered by David Ray Griffin and Loose Change
The Center is coming – the Right and the Left must be watered down.
How is it that Gen Petraeus was a good, stable choice in February when he was confirmed, but a lying traitor last week? Are you trying to say that the Dems are that bad a judge of character that they didn’t see that when they unanimously confirmed him?
MoveOn’s ad was disgusting and the silence from the left is deafening.
Looks like Jane is to the left of Frank Rich. That is all I need to say. You should keep at it. Jane, was the surge a failure in June?
Her Assholiness will never be POTUS!
Few coments above on how horrible the MoveOn add was. As horrible as calling abortion supporters baby killers. Maybe as horrible as 30 years of demonizing liberals. How bout as horrible as labeling anyone critisizing the leadership as hating the troops? Give me some kind of scale here.
As far as belittling the scope of the audience of FDL and MMFA. I can’t speak about the audience here though I believe it is very respectable. MMFA is the top site for its class. That being a media watch dog. Come on over and we’ll politly hand you your fundament.
The Moveon nuts are going to drive the center away from the Dems and the smart people know it. They are noisy, they spit out lots of cash but they only wield so many votes. In the end, they are not only stupid extremists but wrong for America and the Democrats.
The right is fearful of dissent.
It’s scares the living hell out of them.
Their ultimate dream is to control ideas at the barrel of a gun.
Refusal to conform to the authority is a big-time problem for the Riech-wing.
HRC totally blew her Sista Soulja moment.
One need to remember how the military brass sucked up to Rumsfield and his (disastrous) handling of the Iraq war.
But that was so very, very long ago and is now ancient history, right?
Petraeus is a good man, but Bush owns him.
The Reich-wing can count on Americas having a historical memory of a few days.
Ms Hamsher represents the worst of what is going on… instead of disagreeing on policy, she condones attacking the character of Gen Petraeus. He has served over 30 years in the military and has been deployed 4 years away from family since 9/11. I’m sure if there was any support for MOVEON in the military, its now dissipated.
Denounce the two parties! Abolish ear marks, infighting, non public service, lies, deceit, special interest pandering, kick backs, payoffs, and ego-centricity! Term limits, political party abolishment! Let the common man stand up and tell us what he will do for us and let the AMERICAN people decide. No more lobbyists, no free lunches, no fund raisers, no moveon.org influence (what’s that Hillary?). It’s time for the common man to take back the reins! Wake up people! Your country is being given away to Mexico, China, Canada. Ask a Canadian Truck Driver what he is doing next time you see one on our interstates running east or west. Per NAFTA, they are supposed to bring product in, and take our product back! Ask them why then are they underbidding American Trucking Companies and running our products around our country. Now we are letting in Mexican Trucking Companies? Ask Ted (Hiccup) Kennedy how he can criticize when he left a defenseless woman to die at the bottom of the Salty Marsh. What happened to Mr. Reed’s questionable land deal in the Vegas area? Excuse me Mr. Edwards (Greentree Lending), foreclosed on any of those “poor” Americans that you care so much for? Hey Hillary, next time you need a pap, go to Canada Eh!
arguments like this one are the reason why people hate politics and politicians. “ignore what you think is right and follow the party line.” congratulations, you’ve managed to parody yourself quite well.
The left and the right are about to go good night.
As has happened since the dawn of history, the center will rule and the left and right be the fool.