T

2!

hey

4?

Been a busy day. Have not read much about the plan.

I’m craving some pen p*orn, TRex.

Well said. The UK has a life expentancy greater than the US, a measure of the overall quality of health care, and treats its whole population, cradle to grave for the same percentage of GDP as medicare.

I’ll go 4th or 5th – glad you’re calling it what it is, Dinodog -A SCAM!

She learned all the wrong things from her efforts in ‘93 and ‘94…

If she doesn’t get the nomination, I swear I’m gonna convert from atheism to….well, something that believes in a Cloud-being. It will be proof that there is a god.

One would think the second attempt would be better…! I guess it’s more open…!!! 8-(

Anybody know how Obama’s and Edwards’s plans differ, and are they better? If so, how?

All I can say is thank the DLC gawds she showed her true corporate colors now.

What do they do to people in Mass. who cannot pay?

sheesh, hill. You’re advocating legalized extortion, not health CARE.

I’m “Sicko” Clintons.

bonkers @ 14

I’m “Sicko” Clintons.

T-shirt!

Eureka Springs @ 15

bonkers @ 14

I’m “Sicko” Clintons.

T-shirt!

and bumpersticker – the rethugs would buy them too

Maybe she’s trying what’s doable now with plans to improve it in the future. She can only do what can realistically be done and still win in the general election. One step at a time.

Okay, shoot!

Suzanne @ 16

Eureka Springs @ 15

T-shirt!

and bumpersticker – the rethugs would buy them too

707

Eureka Springs @ 12

All I can say is thank the DLC gawds she showed her true corporate colors now.

What do they do to people in Mass. who cannot pay?

You have to pay fines on top of your medical bills for seeking treatment without having insurance.

Suzanne @ 6

I’m craving some pen p*orn, TRex.

Try this.

As the names suggests, I live in Tokyo. The Japanese national health system is open to all, in fact they want everyone signed up, including people students and workers temporarily here from overseas. You have total choice of Dr. and treatment, even dental is covered. Contributions are scaled to income and ability to pay. The co-pay is minimal, even for perscription drugs. The sense of freedom and security knowing that you have access to healthcare should you need it is wonderful. I take out travellers insurance when I go home because I am terrified of getting sick of having an accident uninsured in the States.

Loo Hoo. @ 17

Maybe she’s trying what’s doable now with plans to improve it in the future. She can only do what can realistically be done and still win in the general election. One step at a time.

Okay, shoot!

From TRex’s first link:

“She said yesterday that it would not be a government scheme: ‘I know my Republican opponents will try to equate healthcare for all Americans with government-run healthcare. Don’t let them fool us again. This is not government-run.’”

I think she just lost me there.

Loo Hoo. @ 17

Maybe she’s trying what’s doable now with plans to improve it in the future. She can only do what can realistically be done and still win in the general election. One step at a time.

Okay, shoot!

then that should be clearly stated at the top of her policy.

burnspbesq @ 20

Suzanne @ 6

I’m craving some pen p*orn, TRex.

Try this.

drooling – got it in a blue burnsie?

Loo Hoo. @ 17

Maybe she’s trying what’s doable now with plans to improve it in the future. She can only do what can realistically be done and still win in the general election. One step at a time.

Okay, shoot!

Dearest, I applaud your optimism, but Hillary is, was, and always will be the Big Business Candidate. She’s consistently corporate.

She voted in favor of the bankruptcy bill.

Japandrew @ 21

As the names suggests, I live in Tokyo. The Japanese national health system is open to all, in fact they want everyone signed up, including people students and workers temporarily here from overseas. You have total choice of Dr. and treatment, even dental is covered. Contributions are scaled to income and ability to pay. The co-pay is minimal, even for perscription drugs. The sense of freedom and security knowing that you have access to healthcare should you need it is wonderful. I take out travellers insurance when I go home because I am terrified of getting sick of having an accident uninsured in the States.

DING!

Loo Hoo. @ 17

Maybe she’s trying what’s doable now with plans to improve it in the future. She can only do what can realistically be done and still win in the general election. One step at a time.

Okay, shoot!

Better yet – “OK – throw the dice against the wall.” Nothing but craps out there from all the leading contenders.

the bed cats are making demanding noises … they need a human-sized heating pad. I shall oblige them. Nighters, Firepups, be kind to each other.

Good night all.

I’ll debut the new news site tomorrow or Wednesday.

On my way to bed, and I wanted to say two things…

1. I saw this Hillary health “care” thing on CNN’s site this morning and thought, Oh, fer fuck’s sake. I remember reading somewhere that she was a Goldwater Republican at some point in her early life, and every now and then it peeks out again. BIG handout to the insurance industry, this plan. Big.

2. Addison is a brick solid 50 pounds if he’s an ounce.

I told him he had a fan club at firedoglake and he said “Lake? I like lakes. Can I lie on the boat?”

He’s a sweet dog, and very clever.

Anyone interested in a good laugh?

Republicans Can Win on Healthcare by Karl Rove, in tomorrow’s edition of the WSJ.

He knows Dems are out in front on this issue, so here he presents his cockamamy ideas that are nothing but more of the same crap, wrapped up in new TP.

Loo Hoo. @ 17

Maybe she’s trying what’s doable now with plans to improve it in the future. She can only do what can realistically be done and still win in the general election. One step at a time.

Okay, shoot!

Hiya Loo Hoo, how’re ya doin’ ?

I’ve said it before, the only way to make Universal Health Care work is to follow the Canadian model … take the Insurance companies out of the equation for essential Health services.

TexBetsy @ 29

Good night all.

I’ll debut the new news site tomorrow or Wednesday.

Cool, Ma’am! Sleep well!!!

Hmmmm….

Sounds like some shifty slight of hand going on…

TRex thank you for clarifying Hillary’s bold new plan to fix the health care situation….

But this feels like another train wreck waiting to happen if Ms. Clinton get the Dems prez nomination….

OK, I’ll stipulate that Clinton’s plan falls well short of solving the problem.

But can we please dispense with the silly notion that under a universal single-payer system, health care is “free?” The costs don’t magically disappear; they get funded in a different way (I believe it’s called an income tax).

Patrick, Addison is welcome to hang out on the mod tower, any time.

G’ nite NDFG & Betsy !

Suzanne @ 24

burnspbesq @ 20

Try this.

drooling – got it in a blue burnsie?

Actually I have both the blue and the rose ripples in my collection. Let me see if I can find a pic.

newdealfarmgrrrlll @ 28

the bed cats are making demanding noises … they need a human-sized heating pad. I shall oblige them. Nighters, Firepups, be kind to each other.

My kitties really appreciate it when I when I go to sleep, like I’m finally doing something sensible.

TRex @ 25

Loo Hoo. @ 17

Maybe she’s trying what’s doable now with plans to improve it in the future. She can only do what can realistically be done and still win in the general election. One step at a time.

Okay, shoot!

Dearest, I applaud your optimism, but Hillary is, was, and always will be the Big Business Candidate. She’s consistently corporate.

She voted in favor of the bankruptcy bill.

We could use a Hugh’s List of Hillary stances since she’s been in the Seante which have cost the little gal and guy. TRex’s item deserves to lead the list.

She voted in favor of a lot of corporate-friendly bills, though I don’t have specifics at hand.

burnspbesq @ 35

OK, I’ll stipulate that Clinton’s plan falls well short of solving the problem.

But can we please dispense with the silly notion that under a universal single-payer system, health care is “free?” The costs don’t magically disappear; they get funded in a different way (I believe it’s called an income tax).

But if you cut out the insurance industry profits and excessive executive compensation, you save the taxpayers a lot of money.

Hi everyone….. today I saw the urologist and booked for a boat load of tests over the next week. Yes I am insured…. My employer parent company is an insurance company… my ER visit will have a $100 copay and they will pay 80% of the remainder…. So what do you think…. ER visit, lab, CT scan, ultrasound and cystoscopy will probably run about 5-10K?

I want a system like they have in Canada or France.

When visiting friends in Vancouver BC, their daughter became ill and they called the on-call doctor service and a real MD made a house call. An exam was performed, injection of antibiotics and a RX for oral antibiotics dispensed. The MD returned in 3 days to do a follow up exam. It cost the family $8.00 Canadian. The family pays a total of $1000/yr (Canadian) for a family of 4. The premium is a sliding scale per income level. It is deducted like SSI and Medicare from income received.

The capitalist system is based upon people discovering a need, and satisfying it at a price determined by two free individuals negotiating at arms length.

With health care, you can’t negotiate at arm’s length. The profit motive must be divorced from health care to the greatest extent possible. It is fine by me if M.D.’s are rewarded enough to attract the brightest and most committed. But insurance companies have more in common with leeches than with doctors.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, … That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed…

For “life” I read “health.”

Blue Ripple Waterman 94

TRex @ 25

Loo Hoo. @ 17

Maybe she’s trying what’s doable now with plans to improve it in the future. She can only do what can realistically be done and still win in the general election. One step at a time.

Okay, shoot!

Dearest, I applaud your optimism, but Hillary is, was, and always will be the Big Business Candidate. She’s consistently corporate.

She voted in favor of the bankruptcy bill.

Actually, she didn’t vote on the bankruptcy bill, which is very weak on her part. Scroll down to the consumer section.

Petrocelli @ 32

Loo Hoo. @ 17

Maybe she’s trying what’s doable now with plans to improve it in the future. She can only do what can realistically be done and still win in the general election. One step at a time.

Okay, shoot!

Hiya Loo Hoo, how’re ya doin’ ?

I’ve said it before, the only way to make Universal Health Care work is to follow the Canadian model … take the Insurance companies out of the equation for essential Health services.

Nobody files for Bankruptcy for medical bills any where in the free world, but, here in the US of A! Evening, Mi Amigo!!!

Hillary did not vote for the bankruptcy bill. Nor did she vote against it. She did not vote on it.

What that means, I do not know, but it is not true that she voted for it.

burnspbesq @ 35

OK, I’ll stipulate that Clinton’s plan falls well short of solving the problem.

But can we please dispense with the silly notion that under a universal single-payer system, health care is “free?” The costs don’t magically disappear; they get funded in a different way (I believe it’s called an income tax).

Is there any way we can convince Clinton this is not the way to handle this health care crisis?

Is this plan set in cement?

How about having some of those unfortunate folks who have had the luck of falling between the cracks in the health care system in Massachusetts enlighten Hillary regarding the problems with this specific strategy?….

burnspbesq @ 38

Suzanne @ 24

drooling – got it in a blue burnsie?

Actually I have both the blue and the rose ripples in my collection. Let me see if I can find a pic.

Cool! Are they wood or what?

Hello pups! How’s everybody?

FunnyDiva

burnspbesq @ 44

Blue Ripple Waterman 94

(taking deep drag off cigarette) thanks burnsie, that was good

CTuttle @ 46

Petrocelli @ 32

Hiya Loo Hoo, how’re ya doin’ ?

I’ve said it before, the only way to make Universal Health Care work is to follow the Canadian model … take the Insurance companies out of the equation for essential Health services.

Nobody files for Bankruptcy for medical bills any where in the free world, but, here in the US of A! Evening, Mi Amigo!!!

Hey CT, how’s life in Paradise ?

Evenin’ all !!!

… forgot my manners …

Loo Hoo. @ 17

Maybe she’s trying what’s doable now with plans to improve it in the future. She can only do what can realistically be done and still win in the general election. One step at a time.

Okay, shoot!

In that case it’s bad strategy, of a kind that’s all too common among Dems these days. If you decide what you’d like to do and then look at what you think is politically possible and compromise with it before you even start negotiating with the other side, you’re wonking instead of inspiring.

(The classic example was the book Rahm Emmanuel had out before the election about Big Ideas for America, which from what I read was a collection of big, bold ideas, each followed by an explanation of why it wasn’t politically possible and what incremental measure we should do instead.)

BigMitch @ 43

The capitalist system is based upon people discovering a need, and satisfying it at a price determined by two free individuals negotiating at arms length.

With health care, you can’t negotiate at arm’s length. The profit motive must be divorced from health care to the greatest extent possible. It is fine by me if M.D.’s are rewarded enough to attract the brightest and most committed. But insurance companies have more in common with leeches than with doctors.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, … That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed…

For “life” I read “health.”

Yes. The idea that sick people are somehow shopping around for the best care at the right price and thereby containing costs is a grotesque fantasy.

abject funk @ 47

Hillary did not vote for the bankruptcy bill. Nor did she vote against it. She did not vote on it.

What that means, I do not know, but it is not true that she voted for it.

I stand corrected. Then just two of our current candidates voted for it, Biden and Obama.

Suzanne @ 36

Patrick, Addison is welcome to hang out on the mod tower, any time.

He’ll hang out anywhere the people are nice. I have often thought that life would be better if he just went everywhere with me.

We’re discussing this at my job.

OK, frealz, I am going to sleep.

Night all!

Petrocelli @ 32

Loo Hoo. @ 17

Maybe she’s trying what’s doable now with plans to improve it in the future. She can only do what can realistically be done and still win in the general election. One step at a time.

Okay, shoot!

Hiya Loo Hoo, how’re ya doin’ ?

I’ve said it before, the only way to make Universal Health Care work is to follow the Canadian model … take the Insurance companies out of the equation for essential Health services.

I absolutely and totally agree that healthcare should be run by the government for the people. I’m just suggesting that perhaps a middle ground for now should be acceptable to us so that we can move toward what we want in the future is possible. If we lose yet again, it may never be possible. In fact, if the republicans win again, our country may not make it. I think Hillary is looking toward winning the general election, while trying to hold on to the primary. Winning the primary is fine, but winning the general is what counts.

Clinton also voted against cloture, that is, she voted against the bill when it mattered.

Petrocelli @ 51

CTuttle @ 46

Nobody files for Bankruptcy for medical bills any where in the free world, but, here in the US of A! Evening, Mi Amigo!!!

Hey CT, how’s life in Paradise ?

Evenin’ all !!!

… forgot my manners …

Any Rx for my wife’s cracked rib…?!!!

Late Late Nite FDL: Hillary’s Health Care Sham

Pimp-Loan-a: the running of the sham bulls

BigMitch @ 43

The capitalist system is based upon people discovering a need, and satisfying it at a price determined by two free individuals negotiating at arms length.

With health care, you can’t negotiate at arm’s length. The profit motive must be divorced from health care to the greatest extent possible. It is fine by me if M.D.’s are rewarded enough to attract the brightest and most committed. But insurance companies have more in common with leeches than with doctors.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, … That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed…

For “life” I read “health.”

Almost a ding, but Doctors always have used and still use leeches in their work. And bleeding, an ancient art, is still practiced with the billing systems. But Doctors’ take of the percentage of money rolling into the medical industry is at an all-time low. The other leech and bleeding users in the system are outdoing the medical practitioners themselves more and more each month.

punaise @ 59

Late Late Nite FDL: Hillary’s Health Care Sham

Pimp-Loan-a: the running of the sham bulls

*groan*

deleted by commenter

I’d be interested to read John Edwards’ Health Plan, has he revealed it as yet ?

This plan of hers is gonna make me call up every Merkun I know and ask them to oppose HRC’s nomination.

I hope JE has a better plan and I’m really hoping that Gore runs !

burnspbesq @ 35

OK, I’ll stipulate that Clinton’s plan falls well short of solving the problem.

But can we please dispense with the silly notion that under a universal single-payer system, health care is “free?” The costs don’t magically disappear; they get funded in a different way (I believe it’s called an income tax).

Okay. Free from the corrupt influence of insurance companies. People living free from the threat that they could get an infected cut and end up in bankruptcy court. Free from advertisements for “restless leg syndrome” medicines. But not strictly speaking, free in an economic sense.

neurophius @ 41

burnspbesq @ 35

OK, I’ll stipulate that Clinton’s plan falls well short of solving the problem.

But can we please dispense with the silly notion that under a universal single-payer system, health care is “free?” The costs don’t magically disappear; they get funded in a different way (I believe it’s called an income tax).

But if you cut out the insurance industry profits and excessive executive compensation, you save the taxpayers a lot of money.

I’ll stipulate to that as well.

However …

I’ve spent enough time rummaging around in the financial information of pharmaceutical companies (we have a number of the big ones as clients, so we get to see the detail behind what gets filed with the SEC) to know that there is at least a small kernel of truth in their propaganda about how expensive research and clinical trials are and how small a percentage of compounds that they look at ever yield a drug that gets FDA approval. If you squeeze all of the return on investment out of the system, you won’t have any investment. And I’m not sure we want to see the new drug pipeline dry up completely. There are some diseases for which we could use better treatments.

I don’t mean to be a dick, but Obama voted against cloture and the bill itself. Biden voted for cloture and for the bill.

Again, not to be a jerk, but you are really wrong on some of your assertions, what gives?

(a translucent unspooked ectoplasmic aerial vehicle glides silently over the calming waters of The Lake. It reports via tachyon radio to Spook HQ that the eruptions appear to be over. A quick paradrop from the hovering ecto-dirigible and Al Da Spook is safely in the comfy hammock, large fire extinguisher in hand.)

Evening, Firepups!

My take on healthcare is that it’s not gonna happen except incrementally whether we like it or not. and it will be universal medicare because that system is in place and works after a fashion. Private insurance will take care of copays and extreme measures and boutique medicine, and Medicaid for those too financially bad off to pay copays.

After fifty years, we end up like canada or japan. and about bloody time.

“Is there anybody here who believes that this plan wasn’t conceived and dictated to Senator Clinton by passels of high-end lobbyists for the insurance industry?”

that she has always been a dedicated sold-out corporatist is unquestioned.
this plan reflects this as it does lip service to the health care issue/Crisis.

what was her plan, while 1st lady, that the insurance industry spent millions vilifying?

how do we oppose the insurance industry?

i know how to oppose hill:
Molly Ivins:
Not.
Backing.
Hillary.

Here is the link to John Edwards healthcare plan which he has had out for months.
http://johnedwards.com/issues/health-care/

burnspbesq @ 35

OK, I’ll stipulate that Clinton’s plan falls well short of solving the problem.

But can we please dispense with the silly notion that under a universal single-payer system, health care is “free?” The costs don’t magically disappear; they get funded in a different way (I believe it’s called an income tax).

Yes, burns, but ultimately the middle man has to be cut out of the equation. No sense in having insurance companies getting a cut and telling doctors how to determine what patients need. It will take some tax money, I think you’re right. But think of the cost for not providing government paid healthcare in terms of the many communicable diseases we are facing.

CTuttle @ 58

Petrocelli @ 51

Hey CT, how’s life in Paradise ?

Evenin’ all !!!

… forgot my manners …

Any Rx for my wife’s cracked rib…?!!!

Um … lots of TLC and Italian White Wine to numb the pain … *g*

burnspbesq @ 65

neurophius @ 41

But if you cut out the insurance industry profits and excessive executive compensation, you save the taxpayers a lot of money.

I’ll stipulate to that as well.

However …

I’ve spent enough time rummaging around in the financial information of pharmaceutical companies (we have a number of the big ones as clients, so we get to see the detail behind what gets filed with the SEC) to know that there is at least a small kernel of truth in their propaganda about how expensive research and clinical trials are and how small a percentage of compounds that they look at ever yield a drug that gets FDA approval. If you squeeze all of the return on investment out of the system, you won’t have any investment. And I’m not sure we want to see the new drug pipeline dry up completely. There are some diseases for which we could use better treatments.

But, Burns, howza about diverting the Ad budget into R&D instead???

katymine @ 69

Here is the link to John Edwards healthcare plan which he has had out for months.
http://johnedwards.com/issues/health-care/

Thanks !

Loo Hoo. @ 17

Maybe she’s trying what’s doable now with plans to improve it in the future. She can only do what can realistically be done and still win in the general election. One step at a time.

Okay, shoot!

This plan is a step, alright. A giant step backwards. We would be far better off keeping the status quo.

Seriously, requiring people to have health insurance? So, she proposes that we have a tax on simply being alive, and that money goes stright into the pockets of the very industry that is at the root of our health care problems?

MANDATORY health insurance? Not a chance in hell. No way. No how. They can toss my ass in prison.

One thing for sure, this proposal of Clinton’s, all by itself, is more than enough to fire me up and oppose her both for the Democratic nomination and, god forbid she’s on the ticket, as presidential candidate.

This is totally unacceptable. I am enraged. Clinton is wrong on so many other issues, but this takes the cake. And this is her signature issue?

She needs major pushback on this. Her proposal is immoral and will only make the situation worse.

abject funk @ 66

I don’t mean to be a dick, but Obama voted against cloture and the bill itself. Biden voted for cloture and for the bill.

Again, not to be a jerk, but you are really wrong on some of your assertions, what gives?

Dude, what the hell? I’m so embarrassed. I had a long discussion about this with someone who normally is spot-on and it was these figures that she trotted out for me.

That teaches me to listen to my friends I guess.

I gotta say that although my experiences with the Medical Industrial Complex this year have been totally unsatisfactoy, my 89-yo mom just had a recurrance of cancer after 17 years, She appears to be getting excellent care and followups – they got it once again – through Medicair down in Seattle. Fingers crossed, but she seems quite satisfied with the speed and thoroughness.

I suffered an injury almost six years ago while unemployed.. It caused me to lose everything but my home.. forced me to seek employment that is about 60 to 75 percent less per year than what I made when in full health.

I would have to lose my home in order to get the care I need now.. So I live with a disability but barely with a roof over my head..

Not to mention the decades of paying into insurance without ever making a claim.. all of that was for naught.

CTuttle @ 72

burnspbesq @ 65

I’ll stipulate to that as well.

However …

I’ve spent enough time rummaging around in the financial information of pharmaceutical companies (we have a number of the big ones as clients, so we get to see the detail behind what gets filed with the SEC) to know that there is at least a small kernel of truth in their propaganda about how expensive research and clinical trials are and how small a percentage of compounds that they look at ever yield a drug that gets FDA approval. If you squeeze all of the return on investment out of the system, you won’t have any investment. And I’m not sure we want to see the new drug pipeline dry up completely. There are some diseases for which we could use better treatments.

But, Burns, howza about diverting the Ad budget into R&D instead???

B-b-b-but how are you gonna know if c*alis is right for you ?!! *g*

Suzanne @ 50

burnspbesq @ 44

Blue Ripple Waterman 94

(taking deep drag off cigarette) thanks burnsie, that was good

Mmmmm … Wanna do it again?

TRex @ 75

abject funk @ 66

I don’t mean to be a dick, but Obama voted against cloture and the bill itself. Biden voted for cloture and for the bill.

Again, not to be a jerk, but you are really wrong on some of your assertions, what gives?

Dude, what the hell? I’m so embarrassed. I had a long discussion about this with someone who normally is spot-on and it was these figures that she trotted out for me.

That teaches me to listen to my friends I guess.

*sheesh* who can ya trust nowadays…?!!! *g*

ticktock @ 48

burnspbesq @ 35

OK, I’ll stipulate that Clinton’s plan falls well short of solving the problem.

But can we please dispense with the silly notion that under a universal single-payer system, health care is “free?” The costs don’t magically disappear; they get funded in a different way (I believe it’s called an income tax).

Is there any way we can convince Clinton this is not the way to handle this health care crisis?

Is this plan set in cement?

How about having some of those unfortunate folks who have had the luck of falling between the cracks in the health care system in Massachusetts enlighten Hillary regarding the problems with this specific strategy?….

I live in Massachusetts, and I’m not getting a kick out of these replies at all (anyone read Fark?) Ever since that fucker Romney and the deluded Mass legislature passed this law, I’ve been fuming about how stupid it is.

Thanks a fucking lot, Hillary. Your response to the crisis that 40 million people don’t have health insurance is to pass a law requiring them to buy it.

Man, if this plan works, why don’t we just pass a law that makes murder and rape illegal? Violent crime rates in major cities will drop to almost zero overnight, and think of the cost savings!

Someone needs to ask Hillary (many times) why her health care plan is substantially identical to a Republican’s. In fact, now that I think about it, lets list all the ways Hillary is substantially different than Romney in any respect.

Sorry for the language, but really. Thanks a fucking lot, Hillary. I already didn’t want you as the nominee, but I’ll move heaven and earth to deny you the nomination now.

Petrocelli @ 73

katymine @ 69

Here is the link to John Edwards healthcare plan which he has had out for months.
http://johnedwards.com/issues/health-care/

Thanks !

Edwards explained at a private house party that the plan is NOT a single payer system and his reason for not going straight to that system is that it would be a battle royal with the insurance companies and the Repugs too.

Choice between Public and Private Insurers: Health Care Markets will offer a choice between private insurers and a public insurance plan modeled after Medicare, but separate and apart from it. Families and individuals will choose the plan that works best for them. This American solution will reward the sector that offers the best care at the best price. Over time, the system may evolve toward a single-payer approach if individuals and businesses prefer the public plan.

abject funk @ 57

Clinton also voted against cloture, that is, she voted against the bill when it mattered.

I’m Missouri.

Hi Funny Diva, Suzanne, Betsy, everyone.
;-)

burnspbesq @ 79

Suzanne @ 50

(taking deep drag off cigarette) thanks burnsie, that was good

Mmmmm … Wanna do it again?

that was not as good as the blue one i must sadly report – it just doesn’t tickle my pickle.

Margot @ 84

Hi Funny Diva, Suzanne, Betsy, everyone.
;-)

Hey Margot!

Suzanne @ 85

burnspbesq @ 79

Mmmmm … Wanna do it again?

that was not as good as the blue one i must sadly report – it just doesn’t tickle my pickle.

“That Just Doesn’t Tickle My Pickle!” now there’s an instant t-shirt slogan…

Anyone here from Hawaii?

How about tell us about your state universal health care system?
AND yes they do have it.

Do any of these plans address the growing problem of people who are denied coverage because of actual or perceived “pre-existing” conditions, syndromes or maladies?

Loo Hoo. @ 83

abject funk @ 57

Clinton also voted against cloture, that is, she voted against the bill when it mattered.

I’m Missouri.

“I’m in a Show Me state of mind”

katymine @ 88

Anyone here from Hawaii?

How about tell us about your state universal health care system?
AND yes they do have it.

You’re right, but, there’s still significant gaps, yet, it is better than most…!!!

katymine @ 82

Petrocelli @ 73

Thanks !

Edwards explained at a private house party that the plan is NOT a single payer system and his reason for not going straight to that system is that it would be a battle royal with the insurance companies and the Repugs too.

Choice between Public and Private Insurers: Health Care Markets will offer a choice between private insurers and a public insurance plan modeled after Medicare, but separate and apart from it. Families and individuals will choose the plan that works best for them. This American solution will reward the sector that offers the best care at the best price. Over time, the system may evolve toward a single-payer approach if individuals and businesses prefer the public plan.

I’m Canadian and if I had a vote, it would be for John Edwards.

patrick @ 30

2. Addison is a brick solid 50 pounds if he’s an ounce.

Ha! Did I call it or what!? :-)

So what do I win? :-D

John Edwards on health care, today.

He will take away the President’s, Congress’, and all political appointees’ health care on July 20, 2009 if they haven’t enacted Universal Health Care by then.

He also sez the lesson Hillary learned from 1993 is: “If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em.”

peanutbutter @ 93

patrick @ 30

2. Addison is a brick solid 50 pounds if he’s an ounce.

Ha! Did I call it or what!? :-)

So what do I win? :-D

Um … a jar of Jif !

ET — good luck to your mom. I’m happy to hear that she appears to be getting excellent care and followups.

Didn’t know you were so up on health care policy, TRex. I’m impressed.

Nyceve is going to be posting on this tomorrow, she was on the conference call and is actually pretty impressed with the Clinton plan. Maybe you want to debate her?

Here is Edwards on Pre-existing conditions:

Require Fair Terms for Health Insurance: Edwards will require insurers to keep plans open to everyone and charge fair premiums, regardless of preexisting conditions, medical history, age, job, and other characteristics. No longer will insurance companies be able to game the system to cover only healthy people. Several states – including New Jersey, New York, and Washington – have led the way on similar community rating and guaranteed issue reforms. In addition, new national standards will ensure that all health insurance policies offer preventive and chronic care with minimal cost-sharing.

burnspbesq @ 65

neurophius @ 41

But if you cut out the insurance industry profits and excessive executive compensation, you save the taxpayers a lot of money.

I’ll stipulate to that as well.

However …

I’ve spent enough time rummaging around in the financial information of pharmaceutical companies (we have a number of the big ones as clients, so we get to see the detail behind what gets filed with the SEC) to know that there is at least a small kernel of truth in their propaganda about how expensive research and clinical trials are and how small a percentage of compounds that they look at ever yield a drug that gets FDA approval. If you squeeze all of the return on investment out of the system, you won’t have any investment. And I’m not sure we want to see the new drug pipeline dry up completely. There are some diseases for which we could use better treatments.

Yes, but this doesn’t apply at all for health insurance companies as you point out. Drug companies produce actual physical goods and services that are valuable to people, so we can cut them some slack on ‘profiteering’.

HMOs do nothing but push paper around. Doing a single payer system will allow us to fire about 90% of those people and fold the rest into a more efficient federal benefits system, with a few left around to administer private supplemental insurance plans.

I’d say, number one, lets get rid of those leeching fucker insurance companies. Then when the dust has settled, we can look into whether and how to address possible drug overprices.

Loo Hoo. @ 70

burnspbesq @ 35

OK, I’ll stipulate that Clinton’s plan falls well short of solving the problem.

But can we please dispense with the silly notion that under a universal single-payer system, health care is “free?” The costs don’t magically disappear; they get funded in a different way (I believe it’s called an income tax).

Yes, burns, but ultimately the middle man has to be cut out of the equation. No sense in having insurance companies getting a cut and telling doctors how to determine what patients need. It will take some tax money, I think you’re right. But think of the cost for not providing government paid healthcare in terms of the many communicable diseases we are facing.

I am so on your side on this issue. But I’m also a practicing tax lawyer, and a tax policy geek. I’ve seen, far too often, what happens when we obscure the true economic cost of something, either by funding it out of general tax revenues or by giving it an indirect subsidy in the form of a tax deduction. Maybe it’s a character flaw to want to be clear-eyed about cost. If so, then I am a flawed character.

Ed*ard Teller @ 89

Do any of these plans address the growing problem of people who are denied coverage because of actual or perceived “pre-existing” conditions, syndromes or maladies?

hillary’s supposedly does. however, what i would expect is that if her plan were to be adopted, then the PE people would have ‘coverage’ but when their expensive treatments came up, they would be huge copays and or deemed “experimental” and not covered. Complaints would have to go through “arbitration”, like we do in NAFTA. how well is that working out for us?

doctor visit in France: 22 Euros ($30)… of which 70% is reimbursed by the main health care system. the remainder is usually covered by supplemental mutual insurance coverage (not universal).

CTuttle @ 91

katymine @ 88

Anyone here from Hawaii?

How about tell us about your state universal health care system?
AND yes they do have it.

You’re right, but, there’s still significant gaps, yet, it is better than most…!!!

Ironically, it’s deficiencies are more on the delivery side, not the financial, there is a serious lack of providers on the outer isles that hinders the delivery of needed, timely services…!!!

falling off topic here;

i don’t remember where i found this:

Federal Prosecutor Arrested In Child Sex Sting

for as bad as things are at the DOJ, this goes beyond.

Prosecutors said Atchison flew from Pensacola, Fla., to Detroit on Sunday intending to have sex with the 5-year-old girl.

Jane Hamsher @ 97

Didn’t know you were so up on health care policy, TRex. I’m impressed.

Nyceve is going to be posting on this tomorrow, she was on the conference call and is actually pretty impressed with the Clinton plan. Maybe you want to debate her?

Jane’s up late tonight (waving)

Had a smoke and the comments lit up.

You’re the man TRex for setting stuff right and doing it instantaneously.

I’ve no business in the conversation other than trying to put the record right.

Mandatory health insurance? My wife and I pay $925 per month and we still ‘get’ to pay that much in copays every month for prescriptions, doctor visits, lab tests, etc.

TeddySanFran @ 94

John Edwards on health care, today.

He will take away the President’s, Congress’, and all political appointees’ health care on July 20, 2009 if they haven’t enacted Universal Health Care by then.

He also sez the lesson Hillary learned from 1993 is: “If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em.”

LOL … I love it.

Happy Birthday TSF, I had lots of trouble with my Toobz and couldn’t be on Late Nite yesterday.

((((( TSF )))))

burnspbesq @ 100

Loo Hoo. @ 70

Yes, burns, but ultimately the middle man has to be cut out of the equation. No sense in having insurance companies getting a cut and telling doctors how to determine what patients need. It will take some tax money, I think you’re right. But think of the cost for not providing government paid healthcare in terms of the many communicable diseases we are facing.

I am so on your side on this issue. But I’m also a practicing tax lawyer, and a tax policy geek. I’ve seen, far too often, what happens when we obscure the true economic cost of something, either by funding it out of general tax revenues or by giving it an indirect subsidy in the form of a tax deduction. Maybe it’s a character flaw to want to be clear-eyed about cost. If so, then I am a flawed character.

we need more flawed characters like you then. LOTS more.

Suzanne @ 85

burnspbesq @ 79

Mmmmm … Wanna do it again?

that was not as good as the blue one i must sadly report – it just doesn’t tickle my pickle.

Sorry. You … naah, I am NOT going there.

yellowdog jim @ 104

falling off topic here;

i don’t remember where i found this:

Federal Prosecutor Arrested In Child Sex Sting

for as bad as things are at the DOJ, this goes beyond.

Prosecutors said Atchison flew from Pensacola, Fla., to Detroit on Sunday intending to have sex with the 5-year-old girl.

Please let it not be a democrat.

burnspbesq @ 110

Suzanne @ 85

that was not as good as the blue one i must sadly report – it just doesn’t tickle my pickle.

Sorry. You … naah, I am NOT going there.

Wise choice…!!!

burns,
I’ve done some research on this (a few years ago, I will say) and found that the countries with universal care did some hard bargaining with drug companies to get low priced meds.
So who do they make money off of? Us.
We can’t bargain? We have to buy retail? No. They can spread the cost more evenly among all the countries.

Five years ago, my husband got seriously ill and had to leave his job. COBRA got us a little further. But when COBRA ran out, the offer to continue our insurance was $64,000 per year.

We are shit out of luck on preexisting conditions. Now explain to me how Hillary is making health coverage mandatory.

althespook @ 111

yellowdog jim @ 104

falling off topic here;

i don’t remember where i found this:

Federal Prosecutor Arrested In Child Sex Sting

for as bad as things are at the DOJ, this goes beyond.

Please let it not be a democrat.

Nope, another Florida Rethug…!!!

Suzanne @ 105

Jane Hamsher @ 97

Didn’t know you were so up on health care policy, TRex. I’m impressed.

Nyceve is going to be posting on this tomorrow, she was on the conference call and is actually pretty impressed with the Clinton plan. Maybe you want to debate her?

Jane’s up late tonight (waving)

Maybe she’s up ’cause my 89-yo mom told me to tell her “We’re Victors!” when I talked to her on the phone this evening. She’s not a lurker, but she listens to AM 1090 in Seattle enough to know that my addiction to fdl makes a little bit of sense.

CTuttle @ 103

Ironically, it’s deficiencies are more on the delivery side, not the financial, there is a serious lack of providers on the outer isles that hinders the delivery of needed, timely services…!!!

I know, I did Case Management for the State of HI employees insurance plan. Skilled Nursing homes are worth more than diamonds and the national deficit combined.

The still advertise for nurses here in AZ.
Negotiation of services in HI and AK cannot be done due to the lack of providers and distances that are needed to travel for care.

Petrocelli @ 92

I’m Canadian and if I had a vote, it would be for John Edwards.

He’s ours and you can’t have him. Find your own solution for the Harper problem.

;-)

TJ @ 114

Five years ago, my husband got seriously ill and had to leave his job. COBRA got us a little further. But when COBRA ran out, the offer to continue our insurance was $64,000 per year.

We are shit out of luck on preexisting conditions. Now explain to me how Hillary is making health coverage mandatory.

What will be mandatory is the price they set that you have to pay – or go to jail.

Margot @ 113

burns,
I’ve done some research on this (a few years ago, I will say) and found that the countries with universal care did some hard bargaining with drug companies to get low priced meds.
So who do they make money off of? Us.
We can’t bargain? We have to buy retail? No. They can spread the cost more evenly among all the countries.

The Drug companies in Canada make a pretty penny, they even got Mulroney to resist cheaper generic drugs so their coffers would overflow.

Margot @ 113

burns,
I’ve done some research on this (a few years ago, I will say) and found that the countries with universal care did some hard bargaining with drug companies to get low priced meds.
So who do they make money off of? Us.
We can’t bargain? We have to buy retail? No. They can spread the cost more evenly among all the countries.

one of the greatest hindrances to modern pharmacology IIRC is the lack of a mathematical model of how proteins (which are almost all modern drugs) fold up. Right now a great deal of the cost of development lies in expensive supercomputer time which provides candidates which must be sythesized and tested, often leading to failures and repeat the cycle. In fact, many drug companies routinely scour the world for existing biochemicals to test because it is cheaper in the long run.

What I’m saying is that we need to push a research initiative to get academics to find a way to improve drug science at the ground floor. savings can then be passed on to everyone.

punaise @ 90

Loo Hoo. @ 83

I’m Missouri.

“I’m in a Show Me state of mind”

I think I’m going to Puke.

CTuttle @ 72

But, Burns, howza about diverting the Ad budget into R&D instead???

remember before they were ALLOWED to advertise to patients?
drugs were cheap.

what if we made big pharma outsource their clinical trials to the public sector, say, state universities?

you know? it’s like research.

Suzanne @ 105

Jane Hamsher @ 97

Didn’t know you were so up on health care policy, TRex. I’m impressed.

Nyceve is going to be posting on this tomorrow, she was on the conference call and is actually pretty impressed with the Clinton plan. Maybe you want to debate her?

Jane’s up late tonight (waving)

Hi Suzanne!

Just got back from dinner at Chateau Martmont with Howie, Rick Jacobs and a bunch of others. About half way through the dinner the guy who runs the place came over and said he wanted to introduce himself, he used to work for John Warner for 9 years.

Never been recognized for blogging before by anybody other than bloggers.

althespook @ 111

Please let it not be a democrat.

If he were, it would be out by now. FAUX isn’t giving it any space on the radio, and if they announce it on TV with a pic caption saying he’s a Dem….well

CTuttle @ 115

althespook @ 111

Please let it not be a democrat.

Nope, another Florida Rethug…!!!

Tank oo, Dog!

Ed*ard Teller @ 125

althespook @ 111

Please let it not be a democrat.

If he were, it would be out by now. FAUX isn’t giving it any space on the radio, and if they announce it on TV with a pic caption saying he’s a Dem….well

After all, we all know Mark Foley (D-FL) had inappropriate relationships with pages.

burnspbesq @ 118

Petrocelli @ 92

I’m Canadian and if I had a vote, it would be for John Edwards.

He’s ours and you can’t have him. Find your own solution for the Harper problem.

;-)

We’re going to keep stuffing him with Big Macs until he explodes !

If you’re not using Gore, would you mind if we had him ?

I’ll trade you Saskatchewan for Gore … *g*

That is way cool, Jane. Musta felt good to be recognized for all the good you have done and continue to do.

Petrocelli @ 128

burnspbesq @ 118

He’s ours and you can’t have him. Find your own solution for the Harper problem.

;-)

We’re going to keep stuffing him with Big Macs until he explodes !

If you’re not using Gore, would you mind if we had him ?

I’ll trade you Saskatchewan for Gore … *g*

Gore is worth British Columbia, Alberta and Saskatchewan at the very least. For Saskatchewan by itself you can have Kucinich.

Mitch – ours is “Big Wild Graft!”

seepeesate @ 74

Loo Hoo. @ 17

Maybe she’s trying what’s doable now with plans to improve it in the future. She can only do what can realistically be done and still win in the general election. One step at a time.

Okay, shoot!

This plan is a step, alright. A giant step backwards. We would be far better off keeping the status quo.

Seriously, requiring people to have health insurance? So, she proposes that we have a tax on simply being alive, and that money goes stright into the pockets of the very industry that is at the root of our health care problems?

MANDATORY health insurance? Not a chance in hell. No way. No how. They can toss my ass in prison.

One thing for sure, this proposal of Clinton’s, all by itself, is more than enough to fire me up and oppose her both for the Democratic nomination and, god forbid she’s on the ticket, as presidential candidate.

This is totally unacceptable. I am enraged. Clinton is wrong on so many other issues, but this takes the cake. And this is her signature issue?

She needs major pushback on this. Her proposal is immoral and will only make the situation worse.

We’re already paying for people with no insurance in the emergency rooms at about 10 times what it should cost. Hillary is suggesting insurance for everyone, including those with pre-existing conditions at a flat rate. There will be monies available for those who can’t afford the insurance. I heard today it will cost 92 billion per year. Not cheap, but fair. At this point in our medical nightmare, it may be a plan people can agree upon. I’m not suggesting her plan is the ultimate.

katymine @ 117

CTuttle @ 103

Ironically, it’s deficiencies are more on the delivery side, not the financial, there is a serious lack of providers on the outer isles that hinders the delivery of needed, timely services…!!!

I know, I did Case Management for the State of HI employees insurance plan. Skilled Nursing homes are worth more than diamonds and the national deficit combined.

The still advertise for nurses here in AZ.
Negotiation of services in HI and AK cannot be done due to the lack of providers and distances that are needed to travel for care.

Yes’m that would be the achilles heel…!!!

althespook @ 111

yellowdog jim @ 104

falling off topic here;

i don’t remember where i found this:

Federal Prosecutor Arrested In Child Sex Sting

for as bad as things are at the DOJ, this goes beyond.

Please let it not be a democrat.

A U.S. Justice Department official has been arrested on suspicion of traveling to Detroit over the weekend to have sex with a minor.

John David R. Atchison, 53, an assistant U.S. attorney from the northern district of Florida, was arraigned in U.S. District Court in Detroit Monday afternoon.

Would an assistant USA be a Democrat?

Mitch – Diane Benson will be on Channel 11 right now with her call for an ethics investigation in the US House of Don Young, and I’m hoping Channel 2. Later…

althespook @ 130

Petrocelli @ 128

We’re going to keep stuffing him with Big Macs until he explodes !

If you’re not using Gore, would you mind if we had him ?

I’ll trade you Saskatchewan for Gore … *g*

Gore is worth British Columbia, Alberta and Saskatchewan at the very least. For Saskatchewan by itself you can have Kucinich.

Done deal !!!

… and I’ll throw in Manitoba for good measure … *g*

RonD @ 134

althespook @ 111

Please let it not be a democrat.

A U.S. Justice Department official has been arrested on suspicion of traveling to Detroit over the weekend to have sex with a minor.

John David R. Atchison, 53, an assistant U.S. attorney from the northern district of Florida, was arraigned in U.S. District Court in Detroit Monday afternoon.

Would an assistant USA be a Democrat?

not under fredo he wouldn’t unless he grandfathered in and someone else has said it was a florida rethug.

althespook

one of the greatest hindrances to modern pharmacology IIRC is the lack of a mathematical model of how proteins (which are almost all modern drugs) fold up. Right now a great deal of the cost of development lies in expensive supercomputer time which provides candidates which must be sythesized and tested, often leading to failures and repeat the cycle. In fact, many drug companies routinely scour the world for existing biochemicals to test because it is cheaper in the long run.

What I’m saying is that we need to push a research initiative to get academics to find a way to improve drug science at the ground floor. savings can then be passed on to everyone.

Alfred, is this what that “Folding at Home” computer thing is? Older son downloaded it.
We have it running sometimes, and I thought it was for some medical research.

Loo Hoo. @ 83

abject funk @ 57

Clinton also voted against cloture, that is, she voted against the bill when it mattered.

I’m Missouri.

Loo Hoo, Google “Bankruptcy Bill Vote” and that top two results will be the actual vote on the bill, followed by the cloture vote. Hope that helps. I’d provide links, but I’m HTML idiot extraodinaire and hate to break things.

And yes, I know what “I’m from MIssouri” means. Perhaps the most pithy and politically useful state slogan ever. Stem cells only prove my point (in a good way, of course).

TeddySanFran @ 94

John Edwards on health care, today.

He will take away the President’s, Congress’, and all political appointees’ health care on July 20, 2009 if they haven’t enacted Universal Health Care by then.

He also sez the lesson Hillary learned from 1993 is: “If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em.”

Good luck on that getting passed by Congress; and that is the bottom line. Any change in health care has to get through Congress. Even Hillary’s weak attempt would be gutted by the current and the ‘09 Congress. The public has been brainwashed since LBJ’s time about “socialized medicine” and that is a huge problem.

Petrocelli @ 136

althespook @ 130

Gore is worth British Columbia, Alberta and Saskatchewan at the very least. For Saskatchewan by itself you can have Kucinich.

Done deal !!!

… and I’ll throw in Manitoba for good measure … *g*

You can keep Manitoba. We’re in a generous mood tonight. (Mr. Gore, line one? something about your being traded to Canada for three provinces and a lifetime supply of non-coors Molson?)

Eureka Springs @ 77

I suffered an injury almost six years ago while unemployed.. It caused me to lose everything but my home.. forced me to seek employment that is about 60 to 75 percent less per year than what I made when in full health.

I would have to lose my home in order to get the care I need now.. So I live with a disability but barely with a roof over my head..

Not to mention the decades of paying into insurance without ever making a claim.. all of that was for naught.

Sorry ES. This is so freaking wrong. So un-American. So inhumane. I am so sorry for you and the many others in your situation.

(((waving to Jane)))

All I can stand. Good night, all. The best of all possible tomorrows to you all.

althespook @ 130

Petrocelli @ 128

We’re going to keep stuffing him with Big Macs until he explodes !

If you’re not using Gore, would you mind if we had him ?

I’ll trade you Saskatchewan for Gore … *g*

Gore is worth British Columbia, Alberta and Saskatchewan at the very least. For Saskatchewan by itself you can have Kucinich.

That’s highway robbery! Alta, should be sufficient! New Foundland is enough for Dennis, and Quebec could go to Sarkozy…!!!

Margot @ 138

althespook

one of the greatest hindrances to modern pharmacology IIRC is the lack of a mathematical model of how proteins (which are almost all modern drugs) fold up. Right now a great deal of the cost of development lies in expensive supercomputer time which provides candidates which must be sythesized and tested, often leading to failures and repeat the cycle. In fact, many drug companies routinely scour the world for existing biochemicals to test because it is cheaper in the long run.

What I’m saying is that we need to push a research initiative to get academics to find a way to improve drug science at the ground floor. savings can then be passed on to everyone.

Alfred, is this what that “Folding at Home” computer thing is? Older son downloaded it.
We have it running sometimes, and I thought it was for some medical research.

yup. it is technically “grid computing” which is a networked version of parallel computing. Problem is, we have never solved the parallel computing puzzle either…but every little bit helps…

Ed*ard Teller @ 131

Mitch – ours is “Big Wild Graft!”

707

I think TRex and Jane could write a darn good letter to Ms. Clinton about the opportunities her new “plan” misses. They would speak for millions of un- and underinsured, and those for whom healthcare is a dream even when they have insurance and can pay the premiums.

TRex is absolutely right. The issue is universal healthcare. Not universal insurance or universal subsidies for the insurance industry. The latter would only be useful as a temporary subsidy to guide them to new work because the govt is mandating a new single payer system (like France’s, reportedly the best in the world). That temporary subsidy would put the Blue Crosses of the world on par with two-thirds of those who used to work in Canton, Ohio, whose jobs are now in what used to be called, Canton, China. It would recognize them for what they are: not the upstanding white knights of capitalism, just another industry relying on govt to scuttle its competition and subsidize its private profits.

If Hillary wants the job, she better come up with a plan for voters, not a plan for corporate America. She’s supposed to be a Democrat. Insurance, drugs and mercenaries-R-us industries do not need govt handouts. But Americans do need universal, single payer health care system.

CTuttle @ 144

althespook @ 130

Gore is worth British Columbia, Alberta and Saskatchewan at the very least. For Saskatchewan by itself you can have Kucinich.

That’s highway robbery! Alta, should be sufficient! New Foundland is enough for Dennis, and Quebec could go to Sarkozy…!!!

Sorry, CT, but this is a closed CAFTA free trade deal between me and petrocelli. If you want to have your own deal, find your own canadian. or you can submit to “arbitration”. heh heh heh

Steve-AR @ 140

TeddySanFran @ 94

John Edwards on health care, today.

He will take away the President’s, Congress’, and all political appointees’ health care on July 20, 2009 if they haven’t enacted Universal Health Care by then.

He also sez the lesson Hillary learned from 1993 is: “If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em.”

Good luck on that getting passed by Congress; and that is the bottom line. Any change in health care has to get through Congress. Even Hillary’s weak attempt would be gutted by the current and the ‘09 Congress. The public has been brainwashed since LBJ’s time about “socialized medicine” and that is a huge problem.

This is why it needs to be accompanied by the mother of all ‘propaganda’ pushes, something that makes the push for war in Iraq look like nothing.

I believe it’s possible to do this if people are willing to do the heavy lifting. And the President needs to lead and to tell the repubs (and the dems)… vote with us, or be destroyed.

Eureka Springs @ 12

All I can say is thank the DLC gawds she showed her true corporate colors now.

What do they do to people in Mass. who cannot pay?

here in MA there are free (or partially state paid for) plans for people who make less than $30K (single, more for a family). i don’t see how this plan will work in the long run (too expensive)… but so far, it really is an improvement. and here in MA, we already had a rule that the insurance co.s can’t descriminate based on pre-existing conditions.

for anyone who’s curious, here’s the MA plan.

i benefited, even though i pay for my own insurance, because the state negotiated a bunch of plans. so i changed plans (within BSBC) and my cost when down a few dollars but now prescription drugs are covered (they weren’t in my old plan). i’m really happy about the change, because my doctor has just prescribed a medication for me that costs w/o insurance about $500/mo and with my new insurance $50/90 days.

As Japandrew notes, Japanese healthcare is nigh-universal, although pace TRex, it is not free. The insurance (?) payments are quite a substantial portion of our overall tax burden, although it’s true they are prorated to income. And yes, I also dread the chance of getting sick in the US with its medieval system of health care–best in the world if you’re a member of the royal court, of course.

I run BOINC on my computer when I am not here at the Lake. My computer works SETI, Enstein, Climate Predictor, and Rosetta projects. You can pick and choose what you want your system to work on in its down time from a list of programs.

Margot @ 113

burns,
I’ve done some research on this (a few years ago, I will say) and found that the countries with universal care did some hard bargaining with drug companies to get low priced meds.
So who do they make money off of? Us.
We can’t bargain? We have to buy retail? No. They can spread the cost more evenly among all the countries.

It’s going to be interesting to see how that plays out.

I wonder if the pharma companies didn’t push back as hard as they otherwise might have against other countries because they knew that they could make it up in the U.S. (not only the only major unregulated market, but also the biggest market).

When that “safety valve” goes away, what happens? In France, for example, allowing a significant increase in drug prices would be tantamount to political suicide.

Far more questions than answers, at least for now. I wouldn’t want to have my 401(k) heavily invested in drug stocks any time soon.

CTuttle @ 144

althespook @ 130

Gore is worth British Columbia, Alberta and Saskatchewan at the very least. For Saskatchewan by itself you can have Kucinich.

That’s highway robbery! Alta, should be sufficient! New Foundland is enough for Dennis, and Quebec could go to Sarkozy…!!!

Not to worry, once Bush’s real damage to America has been assessed, we’d be able
to buy back Western Canada in a fire sale and still keep Gore … *g*

Hillary is dead wrong to try to include a piece of the action for the insurance companies again. It backfired last time, and Paul Krugman explains how:

Some people, not all of them right-wingers, fear that a single-payer system would hurt innovation. But the main reason these proposals give private insurers a big role is the belief that the insurers must be appeased.

That belief is rooted in recent history. Bill Clinton’s health care plan failed in large part because of a dishonest but devastating lobbying and advertising campaign financed by the health insurance industry – remember Harry and Louise? And the lesson many people took from that defeat is that any future health care proposal must buy off the insurance lobby.

But I think that’s the wrong lesson. The Clinton plan actually preserved a big role for private insurers; the industry attacked it all the same. And the plan’s complexity, which was largely a result of attempts to placate interest groups, made it hard to sell to the public. So I would argue that good economics is also good politics: reformers will do best with a straightforward single-payer plan, which offers maximum savings and, unlike the Clinton plan, can easily be explained.

Click to see Krugman’s entire article.

althespook @ 148

CTuttle @ 144

That’s highway robbery! Alta, should be sufficient! New Foundland is enough for Dennis, and Quebec could go to Sarkozy…!!!

Sorry, CT, but this is a closed CAFTA free trade deal between me and petrocelli. If you want to have your own deal, find your own canadian. or you can submit to “arbitration”. heh heh heh

Hey, I’m an Ex-Canuck who served twenty in Uncle Sam’s service… I think I’m entitled to the table…!!! ;-)

yellowdog jim @ 123

CTuttle @ 72

But, Burns, howza about diverting the Ad budget into R&D instead???

remember before they were ALLOWED to advertise to patients?
drugs were cheap.

what if we made big pharma outsource their clinical trials to the public sector, say, state universities?

you know? it’s like research.

But if Big Pharma can no longer advertise, who will sponsor the network news every nite?

althespook @ 141

Petrocelli @ 136

Done deal !!!

… and I’ll throw in Manitoba for good measure … *g*

You can keep Manitoba. We’re in a generous mood tonight. (Mr. Gore, line one? something about your being traded to Canada for three provinces and a lifetime supply of non-coors Molson?)

LOL !!!

… non-coors Molson … priceless, AK !

TeddySanFran @ 157

yellowdog jim @ 123

remember before they were ALLOWED to advertise to patients?
drugs were cheap.

what if we made big pharma outsource their clinical trials to the public sector, say, state universities?

you know? it’s like research.

But if Big Pharma can no longer advertise, who will sponsor the network news every nite?

Remember when they actually used to report news…?

althespook — you’ve got mail.

Petrocelli @ 136

Done deal !!!

… and I’ll throw in Manitoba for good measure … *g*

ET, brass band, etc. : is it true you can man a tuba?

Take a look at Kucinich. I swear, this man has a lot more to offer than the media and the Democratic Party are willing to show.

His health care plan is what you are looking for. His plan for getting out of Iraq is what I am looking for….NOW!! He speaks clear and clean, and he isn’t a shill for lobbyists..as are ALL the rest.

althespook @ 148

CTuttle @ 144

That’s highway robbery! Alta, should be sufficient! New Foundland is enough for Dennis, and Quebec could go to Sarkozy…!!!

Sorry, CT, but this is a closed CAFTA free trade deal between me and petrocelli. If you want to have your own deal, find your own canadian. or you can submit to “arbitration”. heh heh heh

Hey Al. Any more details on the almost missing nukes?

I have really enjoyed (in a twisted way) the stuff you’ve been posting on that. Thanks!

CTuttle @ 115

althespook @ 111

Please let it not be a democrat.

Nope, another Florida Rethug…!!!

as i suspected, based on the extent that the DOJ has been hollowed out: all the democrats; all the civilized repugs; all the competent repugs … are long gone.
the repug vermin and a few don quixotes.
and fitz.

Petrocelli @ 154

CTuttle @ 144

That’s highway robbery! Alta, should be sufficient! New Foundland is enough for Dennis, and Quebec could go to Sarkozy…!!!

Not to worry, once Bush’s real damage to America has been assessed, we’d be able
to buy back Western Canada in a fire sale and still keep Gore … *g*

Nobel Prize, Oscar, Emmy, and, all? What kind of chicanery is that??? Hmmm? Some guys…!!!

Petrocelli @ 92

katymine @ 82

Edwards explained at a private house party that the plan is NOT a single payer system and his reason for not going straight to that system is that it would be a battle royal with the insurance companies and the Repugs too.

I’m Canadian and if I had a vote, it would be for John Edwards.

Petrocelli @ 120

Margot @ 113

burns,
I’ve done some research on this (a few years ago, I will say) and found that the countries with universal care did some hard bargaining with drug companies to get low priced meds.
So who do they make money off of? Us.
We can’t bargain? We have to buy retail? No. They can spread the cost more evenly among all the countries.

The Drug companies in Canada make a pretty penny, they even got Mulroney to resist cheaper generic drugs so their coffers would overflow.

same in Australia with Howard.

HulksHeroes @ 162

Take a look at Kucinich. I swear, this man has a lot more to offer than the media and the Democratic Party are willing to show.

His health care plan is what you are looking for. His plan for getting out of Iraq is what I am looking for….NOW!! He speaks clear and clean, and he isn’t a shill for lobbyists..as are ALL the rest.

I agree with you. Now how do we get more people on board?

GRRR @ 107

Mandatory health insurance? My wife and I pay $925 per month and we still ‘get’ to pay that much in copays every month for prescriptions, doctor visits, lab tests, etc.

Honestly, that’s the thing that disappoints me the most. Proposing a plan that focuses almost entirely on “the problem of the uninsured” reduces universal healthcare to a welfare program, which is the type of program that Republicans are best at fighting (through coded racist appeals about people getting something they don’t deserve, etc.)

I have health insurance, and I hate it. There are a lot of people like me. I don’t want a guarantee I can stay in this insurance-company hell, I want a way out. Not trying to be selfish, but if you want a movement to change healthcare, you’d better have something that appeals to us, not just a moral appeal to help the uninsured.

yellowdog jim @ 123

CTuttle @ 72

But, Burns, howza about diverting the Ad budget into R&D instead???

remember before they were ALLOWED to advertise to patients?
drugs were cheap.

what if we made big pharma outsource their clinical trials to the public sector, say, state universities?

you know? it’s like research.

On the subject of DTC advertising, you are preaching to the choir. A horrible idea. Give me 24 hours as Decider and a complaisant Congress, that’s on my to-do list.

On the other, hmmm … convince me that (1) universities can do it better and/or faster and/or cheaper and (2) it’s not inconsistent or incompatible with their primary mission.

CTuttle @ 156

althespook @ 148

Sorry, CT, but this is a closed CAFTA free trade deal between me and petrocelli. If you want to have your own deal, find your own canadian. or you can submit to “arbitration”. heh heh heh

Hey, I’m an Ex-Canuck who served twenty in Uncle Sam’s service… I think I’m entitled to the table…!!! ;-)

Sorry didn’t know. you can have nova scotia then.

TRex @ 19

Eureka Springs @ 12

All I can say is thank the DLC gawds she showed her true corporate colors now.

What do they do to people in Mass. who cannot pay?

You have to pay fines on top of your medical bills for seeking treatment without having insurance.

no one, to my knowledge, has been charged any fines yet. we have yet to see how this will shake out.

i do think it is a stupid plan. lots of corporate welfare for the insurance co.s… but there also are real benefits for us.

… was sorta hoping that MA’s plan would be the test case to prove that we need single payer.

Suzanne @ 129

That is way cool, Jane. Musta felt good to be recognized for all the good you have done and continue to do.

Maybe he saw me on O’Reilly.

I’ve been getting loads of hate mail and death threats all evening and I couldn’t find a link from any of the usual suspects. Looks like BillO did a whole segment on me.

http://www.newshounds.us/2007/….._words.php

I’m so proud.

What will happen to all the clerical staff that works for these insurance plans – you know based on the amount of paperwork ya have for any claim that there is a whole buttload of clerical staff.

clerical staff tends to be underpaid and overworked in most corporate environments (no link – just personal experiences) – where will all those jobs go if we do away with the insurance companies?

i am for single payer – but i worry about the little worker bees jobs.

burnspbesq @ 100

Loo Hoo. @ 70

Yes, burns, but ultimately the middle man has to be cut out of the equation. No sense in having insurance companies getting a cut and telling doctors how to determine what patients need. It will take some tax money, I think you’re right. But think of the cost for not providing government paid healthcare in terms of the many communicable diseases we are facing.

I am so on your side on this issue. But I’m also a practicing tax lawyer, and a tax policy geek. I’ve seen, far too often, what happens when we obscure the true economic cost of something, either by funding it out of general tax revenues or by giving it an indirect subsidy in the form of a tax deduction. Maybe it’s a character flaw to want to be clear-eyed about cost. If so, then I am a flawed character.

Oh, no! We should know what the hell we’re buying before we slam down the credit card??? Even if we don’t know the interest rate or what it will cost? *G*

And congratulations on getting the #100!

HulksHeroes @ 162

Take a look at Kucinich. I swear, this man has a lot more to offer than the media and the Democratic Party are willing to show.

His health care plan is what you are looking for. His plan for getting out of Iraq is what I am looking for….NOW!! He speaks clear and clean, and he isn’t a shill for lobbyists..as are ALL the rest.

He’s the real deal, and he wins in blind taste test, i.e. when they ask you your views, and match you to the candidate who shares them. Too bad he isn’t as handsome as Barack or Hillary. (And iffy on abortion.)

Petrocelli @ 128

burnspbesq @ 118

He’s ours and you can’t have him. Find your own solution for the Harper problem.

;-)

We’re going to keep stuffing him with Big Macs until he explodes !

If you’re not using Gore, would you mind if we had him ?

I’ll trade you Saskatchewan for Gore … *g*

Throw in a dozen of Tim’s’ best and you have yourself a deal.

Jane Hamsher @ 172

Suzanne @ 129

That is way cool, Jane. Musta felt good to be recognized for all the good you have done and continue to do.

Maybe he saw me on O’Reilly.

I’ve been getting loads of hate mail and death threats all evening and I couldn’t find a link from any of the usual suspects. Looks like BillO did a whole segment on me.

http://www.newshounds.us/2007/….._words.php

I’m so proud.

several of the trolls referred to the billo o piece.

Petrocelli @ 158

althespook @ 141

You can keep Manitoba. We’re in a generous mood tonight. (Mr. Gore, line one? something about your being traded to Canada for three provinces and a lifetime supply of non-coors Molson?)

LOL !!!

… non-coors Molson … priceless, AK !

lived in denver til 2005. know ALL about coors and the molson deal. i could DRINK beer then, and by the grace of my pancreas will be able to again by end of 2008.

This is why it needs to be accompanied by the mother of all ‘propaganda’ pushes, something that makes the push for war in Iraq look like nothing.

I believe it’s possible to do this if people are willing to do the heavy lifting. And the President needs to lead and to tell the repubs (and the dems)… vote with us, or be destroyed.

Without that, we are screwed. The push-back to any change will be “socialized medicine and rationed health care.” Any health care bill would turn out to be more welfare for the insurance industry. Any candidate who is making “noise” about change in health care funding is being dishonest. Without a major change in public opinion and a major change in Congress; it’s going to be Medi-Care drug plan x 10.

althespook @ 170

CTuttle @ 156

Hey, I’m an Ex-Canuck who served twenty in Uncle Sam’s service… I think I’m entitled to the table…!!! ;-)

Sorry didn’t know. you can have nova scotia then.

Heh, I could readily move into the family farm in Pugwash, NS! I just dread the change in climes…!!! ;-)

HulksHeroes @ 162

Take a look at Kucinich. I swear, this man has a lot more to offer than the media and the Democratic Party are willing to show.

His health care plan is what you are looking for. His plan for getting out of Iraq is what I am looking for….NOW!! He speaks clear and clean, and he isn’t a shill for lobbyists..as are ALL the rest.

And with that smokin’ hot wife, as Jon Stewart sez, dude’s gotta be swinging some serious pipe.

althespook @ 137

RonD @ 134

A U.S. Justice Department official has been arrested on suspicion of traveling to Detroit over the weekend to have sex with a minor.

John David R. Atchison, 53, an assistant U.S. attorney from the northern district of Florida, was arraigned in U.S. District Court in Detroit Monday afternoon.

Would an assistant USA be a Democrat?

not under fredo he wouldn’t unless he grandfathered in and someone else has said it was a florida rethug.

as i undersatnd it it was monica golding’s job to keep democrats out.

pedophiles? maybe not so much.

Sparhawk,
I like the term Medical Security. It may be something people would not instantly be turned off by, anyway.

Redshift @ 168

GRRR @ 107

Mandatory health insurance? My wife and I pay $925 per month and we still ‘get’ to pay that much in copays every month for prescriptions, doctor visits, lab tests, etc.

Honestly, that’s the thing that disappoints me the most. Proposing a plan that focuses almost entirely on “the problem of the uninsured” reduces universal healthcare to a welfare program, which is the type of program that Republicans are best at fighting (through coded racist appeals about people getting something they don’t deserve, etc.)

I have health insurance, and I hate it. There are a lot of people like me. I don’t want a guarantee I can stay in this insurance-company hell, I want a way out. Not trying to be selfish, but if you want a movement to change healthcare, you’d better have something that appeals to us, not just a moral appeal to help the uninsured.

Medicare for all.

GRRR @ 107

Mandatory health insurance? My wife and I pay $925 per month and we still ‘get’ to pay that much in copays every month for prescriptions, doctor visits, lab tests, etc.

OMG! How can this be so?

Jane Hamsher @ 172

Suzanne @ 129

That is way cool, Jane. Musta felt good to be recognized for all the good you have done and continue to do.

Maybe he saw me on O’Reilly.

I’ve been getting loads of hate mail and death threats all evening and I couldn’t find a link from any of the usual suspects. Looks like BillO did a whole segment on me.

http://www.newshounds.us/2007/….._words.php

I’m so proud.

Now there’s a t-shirt I want:
“Bill O’Reilly hates me”

althespook @ 170

CTuttle @ 156

Hey, I’m an Ex-Canuck who served twenty in Uncle Sam’s service… I think I’m entitled to the table…!!! ;-)

Sorry didn’t know. you can have nova scotia then.

With cream cheese, a bagel, onion, and capers?

wigwam @ 163

althespook @ 148

Sorry, CT, but this is a closed CAFTA free trade deal between me and petrocelli. If you want to have your own deal, find your own canadian. or you can submit to “arbitration”. heh heh heh

Hey Al. Any more details on the almost missing nukes?

I have really enjoyed (in a twisted way) the stuff you’ve been posting on that. Thanks!

am waiting for developments. something is happening but no one will talk to me about it, saying its just too goddam hot. we’ll see.

peanutbutter @ 159

TeddySanFran @ 157

But if Big Pharma can no longer advertise, who will sponsor the network news every nite?

Remember when they actually used to report news…?

snark alert.
nostalgia snark.

Curious in Central Texas @ 160

althespook — you’ve got mail.

no find. which addy did you use?

Jane, perhaps KO will make BO WPITW for going sicing his dogs on you.

althespook @ 190

Curious in Central Texas @ 160

althespook — you’ve got mail.

no find. which addy did you use?

gmail

Suzanne @ 177

Jane Hamsher @ 172

Maybe he saw me on O’Reilly.

I’ve been getting loads of hate mail and death threats all evening and I couldn’t find a link from any of the usual suspects. Looks like BillO did a whole segment on me.

http://www.newshounds.us/2007/….._words.php

I’m so proud.

several of the trolls referred to the billo o piece.

Aah, ya’ll spoiled our fun!!! The Lake was eager to swat’em!!!

Redshift @ 168

Honestly, that’s the thing that disappoints me the most. Proposing a plan that focuses almost entirely on “the problem of the uninsured” reduces universal healthcare to a welfare program, which is the type of program that Republicans are best at fighting (through coded racist appeals about people getting something they don’t deserve, etc.)

I have health insurance, and I hate it. There are a lot of people like me. I don’t want a guarantee I can stay in this insurance-company hell, I want a way out. Not trying to be selfish, but if you want a movement to change healthcare, you’d better have something that appeals to us, not just a moral appeal to help the uninsured.

The major thing with a true single payer plan or government plan is PORTABILITY. Never again do I want to be trapped in a job because of Health Insurance.

If I moved to employer XX I have to wait 90 days before coverage kicks in. If I have a break in coverage more than 90 days, everything I have or imagined to be treated for will be considered pre-existing.

Portability…. THAT is my goal.

Jane Hamsher @ 97

Didn’t know you were so up on health care policy, TRex. I’m impressed.

Nyceve is going to be posting on this tomorrow, she was on the conference call and is actually pretty impressed with the Clinton plan. Maybe you want to debate her?

Eek! I just saw this comment for the first time.

Oh, lord, I don’t know about debating.

But, okay.

You know I’m a pathology geek, especially with regards to epidemic flus and catastrophic plagues. What’s happening in health care is of grave concern to me.

A society is only as healthy as its poorest part of town. Germs don’t care about your gated community.

TeddySanFran @ 157

yellowdog jim @ 123

remember before they were ALLOWED to advertise to patients?
drugs were cheap.

what if we made big pharma outsource their clinical trials to the public sector, say, state universities?

you know? it’s like research.

But if Big Pharma can no longer advertise, who will sponsor the network news every nite?

And if no one will sponsor the network news, will we be rid of it?

I think economists would call that a positive externality.

Curious in Central Texas @ 192

althespook @ 190

no find. which addy did you use?

gmail

the michaelkilgallen158 one? cause if it was alfredkelgarries it’s dead jim. spock took its tricorder and mccoy got the wallet.

burnspbesq @ 169

yellowdog jim @ 123

remember before they were ALLOWED to advertise to patients?
drugs were cheap.

what if we made big pharma outsource their clinical trials to the public sector, say, state universities?

you know? it’s like research.

On the subject of DTC advertising, you are preaching to the choir. A horrible idea. Give me 24 hours as Decider and a complaisant Congress, that’s on my to-do list.

On the other, hmmm … convince me that (1) universities can do it better and/or faster and/or cheaper and (2) it’s not inconsistent or incompatible with their primary mission.

may i suggest instead that:

1) patent lengths be drastically shortened? like to 2 years. everything goes to generics – fast.
2) create prizes for drug co. inventions/discovery (see stiglitz)
3) funding for nih (plus some reforms to budget and peer review).

the above will greatly diminish the incentives to advertise.

burnspbesq @ 176

Petrocelli @ 128

We’re going to keep stuffing him with Big Macs until he explodes !

If you’re not using Gore, would you mind if we had him ?

I’ll trade you Saskatchewan for Gore … *g*

Throw in a dozen of Tim’s’ best and you have yourself a deal.

Sorry, Harper needs those to get through the day … *g*

*gasp* Persi, you’re not a Femi-Nazi are ya? *g*

CTuttle @ 180

althespook @ 170

Sorry didn’t know. you can have nova scotia then.

Heh, I could readily move into the family farm in Pugwash, NS! I just dread the change in climes…!!! ;-)

Oh come on … you could drive to work in a Skidoo … *g*

TJ @ 114

Five years ago, my husband got seriously ill and had to leave his job. COBRA got us a little further. But when COBRA ran out, the offer to continue our insurance was $64,000 per year.

We are shit out of luck on preexisting conditions. Now explain to me how Hillary is making health coverage mandatory.

I just heard this briefly and have not done any research myself. On Air America, I heard that everyone would be able to buy the insurance, and pre-existing conditions, age, etc. would not be considered in the rates people pay. I do not know how insurance rates would work in terms of income in her plan.

I understand that we need a way to get to universal healthcare and eliminating insurance middlemen who profit by denying care, but I expect a plan that will create pressure in that direction. I’m willing to be proven wrong, but I feel from the summary info I’ve read that Hillary’s plan is more patching up the current system than giving people choices that will build that pressure. Edwards’ plan seems to do more in that direction, but again, I could just be reading my own bias into it.

Jane, about these threats…

Petrocelli @ 201

CTuttle @ 180

Heh, I could readily move into the family farm in Pugwash, NS! I just dread the change in climes…!!! ;-)

Oh come on … you could drive to work in a Skidoo … *g*

I’d have to!!! *g*

althespook @ 188

wigwam @ 163

Hey Al. Any more details on the almost missing nukes?

I have really enjoyed (in a twisted way) the stuff you’ve been posting on that. Thanks!

am waiting for developments. something is happening but no one will talk to me about it, saying its just too goddam hot. we’ll see.

Cool! This is like a serialized Clancy novel, but with reality reprecussions. Scary shit.

Jane Hamsher @ 172

Suzanne @ 129

That is way cool, Jane. Musta felt good to be recognized for all the good you have done and continue to do.

Maybe he saw me on O’Reilly.

I’ve been getting loads of hate mail and death threats all evening and I couldn’t find a link from any of the usual suspects. Looks like BillO did a whole segment on me.

http://www.newshounds.us/2007/….._words.php

I’m so proud.

Jane, I hope you’ve contacted the Feds about those hate mails and death threats.

Suzanne @ 191

Jane, perhaps KO will make BO WPITW for going sicing his dogs on you.

have we already noted KO’s emergency appendectomy tonight?

alison had to do his show.

How in the hell could this woman be the front-runner for the nomination. Are we a fucking glutton for punishment in this country or what. It’s like we are reading out of the book of sure disaster and following it to the letter.

Suzanne @ 174

What will happen to all the clerical staff that works for these insurance plans – you know based on the amount of paperwork ya have for any claim that there is a whole buttload of clerical staff.

clerical staff tends to be underpaid and overworked in most corporate environments (no link – just personal experiences) – where will all those jobs go if we do away with the insurance companies?

i am for single payer – but i worry about the little worker bees jobs.

Those jobs are going anyway — only question is whether they are going to Bangalore or disappearing altogether. I think we could fund some job training out of the cost savings ;-)

Suzanne @ 191

Jane, perhaps KO will make BO WPITW for going sicing his dogs on you.

I have just re-read Jane’s letter to Elizabeth, and I cannot find the Nazism or fascism Bill Orally claims to see there.

Maybe it’s me, or maybe it’s Orally.

PS Keith doesn’t return from appendix surgery until Wednesday. Hope this doesn’t get missed; his lady subs don’t do WPITW.

Jane Hamsher @ 172

Suzanne @ 129

That is way cool, Jane. Musta felt good to be recognized for all the good you have done and continue to do.

Maybe he saw me on O’Reilly.

I’ve been getting loads of hate mail and death threats all evening and I couldn’t find a link from any of the usual suspects. Looks like BillO did a whole segment on me.

http://www.newshounds.us/2007/….._words.php

I’m so proud.

congratulations!

“First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win.”
— Mahatma Gandhi

Petrocelli @ 207

Jane Hamsher @ 172

Maybe he saw me on O’Reilly.

I’ve been getting loads of hate mail and death threats all evening and I couldn’t find a link from any of the usual suspects. Looks like BillO did a whole segment on me.

http://www.newshounds.us/2007/….._words.php

I’m so proud.

Jane, I hope you’ve contacted the Feds about those hate mails and death threats.

If she needs bodyguards, I believe Blackwater has some newly available, just home from iraq…:(:)

wigwam @ 206

althespook @ 188

am waiting for developments. something is happening but no one will talk to me about it, saying its just too goddam hot. we’ll see.

Cool! This is like a serialized Clancy novel, but with reality reprecussions. Scary shit.

I need to figure out how to subscribe to Rationcinations to make sure I don’t miss an update.

Not reading comments.

Just a shout to TRex:

Nice work, hoss.

Stick it to the crapola machine that would continue the rapage and pilliging of our masses and their needs for healthcare.

Fuck Shilary.
Fuck the pharma.
Fuck the lobbyists with the stranglehold on our lives and our elected officials.

Way to shout it out, TRex, I was WAITING for some one in here to turn around, and pivot, and NAIL the bastards and bastardettes for their crap of mounded bullshit as they try and pass them selves off as an ELECTED REP of us progressives.

Time to play not nice, across the board, or give up our rights and ways of life we thought our nation was gonna defend.

Harumph.

TRex rocks, on this one. And he thumps tail LOUD!

Phreakin Bravo, Hoss!!

TJ @ 214

wigwam @ 206

Cool! This is like a serialized Clancy novel, but with reality reprecussions. Scary shit.

I need to figure out how to subscribe to Rationcinations to make sure I don’t miss an update.

use RSS. what feed reader are you addicted to? I’m codependent on Google Reader myself…

Jane Hamsher @ 172

Suzanne @ 129

That is way cool, Jane. Musta felt good to be recognized for all the good you have done and continue to do.

Maybe he saw me on O’Reilly.

I’ve been getting loads of hate mail and death threats all evening and I couldn’t find a link from any of the usual suspects. Looks like BillO did a whole segment on me.

http://www.newshounds.us/2007/….._words.php

I’m so proud.

Indeed, that is quite a badge of honor!

wigwam @ 206

althespook @ 188

am waiting for developments. something is happening but no one will talk to me about it, saying its just too goddam hot. we’ll see.

Cool! This is like a serialized Clancy novel, but with reality reprecussions. Scary shit.

Nothing seems to have occurred from this ’stand down’!!!

Now I am really pissed.

ET got me to watch the local news on the promise that our fav congressional candidate will be on. No show.

But what I did learn is that an outright fucking criminal is the D.A. in Anchorage. She was caught cheating in court, so they re-assigned her to the hinterlands. There, she changed her name and re-emerged. It is SOOOOOO fucking sickening.

Our Governor may be good looking, but that only counts for so much.

Please don’t vote for Hillary. My health depends on it.

the above will greatly diminish the incentives to advertise.

Making direct-to-consumer drug advertising illegal again will also disincentivize it, and much more quickly at that.

CTuttle @ 200

*gasp* Persi, you’re not a Femi-Nazi are ya? *g*

Why Chikka, I do believe I am. At least our brownshirts are designer-label.

Redshift @ 203

I understand that we need a way to get to universal healthcare and eliminating insurance middlemen who profit by denying care, but I expect a plan that will create pressure in that direction.

i think this is exactly right… and that is how i will be judging the plans… once i get around to reading them for myself.

yellowdog jim @ 208

Suzanne @ 191

Jane, perhaps KO will make BO WPITW for going sicing his dogs on you.

have we already noted KO’s emergency appendectomy tonight?

alison had to do his show.

banging head on keyboard – my subconscious musta blocked it out – even though i do like allison

CTuttle @ 217

wigwam @ 206

Cool! This is like a serialized Clancy novel, but with reality reprecussions. Scary shit.

Nothing seems to have occurred from this ’stand down’!!!

oh yes it did. that’s what they won’t talk to me about. SOMETHING got shaken out of the trees.

Eureka Springs @ 220

Please don’t vote for Hillary. My health depends on it.

I’ll promise you that for the Primary, beyond that I’ll renege!!!

althespook — did you get mail yet?

persiflage @ 222

CTuttle @ 200

*gasp* Persi, you’re not a Femi-Nazi are ya? *g*

Why Chikka, I do believe I am. At least our brownshirts are designer-label.

YSL? *g*

althespook @ 225

CTuttle @ 217

Nothing seems to have occurred from this ’stand down’!!!

oh yes it did. that’s what they won’t talk to me about. SOMETHING got shaken out of the trees.

couldn’t sleep, here i am again. So, was it Louisiana trees?

persiflage @ 222

CTuttle @ 200

*gasp* Persi, you’re not a Femi-Nazi are ya? *g*

Why Chikka, I do believe I am. At least our brownshirts are designer-label.

Country Road?

BigMitch @ 218

Now I am really pissed.

ET got me to watch the local news on the promise that our fav congressional candidate will be on. No show.

But what I did learn is that an outright fucking criminal is the D.A. in Anchorage. She was caught cheating in court, so they re-assigned her to the hinterlands. There, she changed her name and re-emerged. It is SOOOOOO fucking sickening.

Our Governor may be good looking, but that only counts for so much.

BigMitch, between you and TPM I’m getting the impression that Alaska politics are a wee mite dirty. Like the NYC sewer system is dirty. Is there any hope anything can be done about it?

BigMitch @ 219

Now I am really pissed.

ET got me to watch the local news on the promise that our fav congressional candidate will be on. No show.

But what I did learn is that an outright fucking criminal is the D.A. in Anchorage. She was caught cheating in court, so they re-assigned her to the hinterlands. There, she changed her name and re-emerged. It is SOOOOOO fucking sickening.

Our Governor may be good looking, but that only counts for so much.

I thought Texas had the corner on the “Good Hair” politicians….. Oh you said good looking… Oh well…

I am sooooo excited that Jane got called to Asst. Principal O’Reilly’s office. You guys know what this means, don’t you? We’re goin’ UPTOWN!!

Bill has just brought us more free publicity than we could get if we payed a PR firm hundreds of thousands of dollars. I could just give him a great big wet sloppy kiss.

I’ve been jonesing for a good rumble.

*straps on armor and a helmet adorned with a giant spike*

Everybody grab your wooden stakes. We’re going over the wall.

Do you sons of bitches want to live forever?!

ATTACK!! ATTACK!! ATTAAAAAAAAAACK!!

*cough, cough*

Suzanne @ 204

Jane, about these threats…

ahem.
we get very protective of you Jane, just because.
we get very very protective, because you are not well.

we get …

you have to assure us you are exercising all due deliberate diligence that you are safe.

please, call the authorities.

don’t mean to be pushy here.
okay?

Hmmm… “Sorry I’m late for work, I was up late debating health care policy.” *g*

I should get to bed. ‘Night all.

CTuttle @ 226

Eureka Springs @ 220

Please don’t vote for Hillary. My health depends on it.

I’ll promise you that for the Primary, beyond that I’ll renege!!!

Then we’ll trade our Corporate repuke, for a Corporate Democrat.

TRex @ 233

I am sooooo excited that Jane got called to Asst. Principal O’Reilly’s office. You guys know what this means, don’t you? We’re goin’ UPTOWN!!

Bill has just brought us more free publicity than we could get if we payed a PR firm hundreds of thousands of dollars. I could just give him a great big wet sloppy kiss.

I’ve been jonesing for a good rumble.

*straps on armor and a helmet adorned with a giant spike*

Everybody grab your wooden stakes. We’re going over the wall.

Do you sons of bitches want to live forever?!

ATTACK!! ATTACK!! ATTAAAAAAAAAACK!!

*cough, cough*

strapping in the mod tower seat (with the 5pt restraint) let’s rock and roll, dood

Curious in Central Texas @ 226

althespook — did you get mail yet?

just did. will read and get back to you on gmail.

althespook @ 216

TJ @ 214

I need to figure out how to subscribe to Rationcinations to make sure I don’t miss an update.

use RSS. what feed reader are you addicted to? I’m codependent on Google Reader myself…

I just tried the My Yahoo feed, since I check that often. I’m not sure it will catch if you do an update rather than a new post though.

althespook @ 225

CTuttle @ 217

Nothing seems to have occurred from this ’stand down’!!!

oh yes it did. that’s what they won’t talk to me about. SOMETHING got shaken out of the trees.

Dayam, there ya go again! Where’s your minder? I need to talk to him again!!!

Loo Hoo. @ 17

Maybe she’s trying what’s doable now with plans to improve it in the future. She can only do what can realistically be done and still win in the general election. One step at a time.

Okay, shoot!

I, and MANY others don’t WANT her to win the primary OR the General Election!!

She’s POISON, like BushCo.

So I disagree wit ya, HEARTILY!!!!

yellowdog jim @ 233

Suzanne @ 204

Jane, about these threats…

ahem.
we get very protective of you Jane, just because.
we get very very protective, because you are not well.

we get …

you have to assure us you are exercising all due deliberate diligence that you are safe.

please, call the authorities.

don’t mean to be pushy here.
okay?

Let’s be PUSHY. If someone offs jane, I’m gonna be PISSED. Pissed spooks are NOT TEH GOOD THING. So please, Jane, CALL THE DAYAM COPS! (suz can you give her pointers…?)

althespook @ 148

CTuttle @ 144

That’s highway robbery! Alta, should be sufficient! New Foundland is enough for Dennis, and Quebec could go to Sarkozy…!!!

Sorry, CT, but this is a closed CAFTA free trade deal between me and petrocelli. If you want to have your own deal, find your own canadian. or you can submit to “arbitration”. heh heh heh

And by the way, CTuttle, aren’t there some tiny little islands in your parts that might sweeten the dealio?

TRex @ 233

I am sooooo excited that Jane got called to Asst. Principal O’Reilly’s office. You guys know what this means, don’t you? We’re goin’ UPTOWN!!

Bill has just brought us more free publicity than we could get if we payed a PR firm hundreds of thousands of dollars. I could just give him a great big wet sloppy kiss.

I’ve been jonesing for a good rumble.

*straps on armor and a helmet adorned with a giant spike*

Everybody grab your wooden stakes. We’re going over the wall.

Do you sons of bitches want to live forever?!

ATTACK!! ATTACK!! ATTAAAAAAAAAACK!!

*cough, cough*

It will be interesting to see if the site meter shows a BillO bounce!

TRex @ 233

I could just give him a great big wet sloppy kiss.

And if he kisses you back … ???

It’s filthy here, but that is not new. What is new is that it is impossible to deny anymore. The exciting part is that Ted Stevens is about to get his walking papers, and soon, he may be looking for parole papers. His son is in deep ca-ca, too, and it couldn’t happen to a bigger asshole.

I’m going to write Bill-O a big thank you note tomorrow for pumping us up on Technorati. We’ve already gone up two points just since the show aired. This is gonna be so sweeeeeet.

Jane appears to have gone to bed. Knowing Jane, I have faith in her abilities to do the right thing and protect herself at the same time.

TRex @ 233

I am sooooo excited that Jane got called to Asst. Principal O’Reilly’s office. You guys know what this means, don’t you? We’re goin’ UPTOWN!!

Bill has just brought us more free publicity than we could get if we payed a PR firm hundreds of thousands of dollars. I could just give him a great big wet sloppy kiss.

I’ve been jonesing for a good rumble.

*straps on armor and a helmet adorned with a giant spike*

Everybody grab your wooden stakes. We’re going over the wall.

Do you sons of bitches want to live forever?!

ATTACK!! ATTACK!! ATTAAAAAAAAAACK!!

*cough, cough*

*gigglesnorts*

TJ @ 238

althespook @ 216

use RSS. what feed reader are you addicted to? I’m codependent on Google Reader myself…

I just tried the My Yahoo feed, since I check that often. I’m not sure it will catch if you do an update rather than a new post though.

do you use iGoogle? or have a gmail account? cause google reader is really the best and I can walk you through it right here…

Burns:
Can you recommend a tax attorney? I seem to be in a bit of trouble (pokey-type) and live on disability. Is there a listing somewhere of names that I might go to for my area? I apologise for intruding…

Redshift @ 168

GRRR @ 107

Mandatory health insurance? My wife and I pay $925 per month and we still ‘get’ to pay that much in copays every month for prescriptions, doctor visits, lab tests, etc.

Honestly, that’s the thing that disappoints me the most. Proposing a plan that focuses almost entirely on “the problem of the uninsured” reduces universal healthcare to a welfare program, which is the type of program that Republicans are best at fighting (through coded racist appeals about people getting something they don’t deserve, etc.)

I have health insurance, and I hate it. There are a lot of people like me. I don’t want a guarantee I can stay in this insurance-company hell, I want a way out. Not trying to be selfish, but if you want a movement to change healthcare, you’d better have something that appeals to us, not just a moral appeal to help the uninsured.

there are benefits, i think, even for people like you:
1) you don’t have to worry about going over the plan max (if your plan has one).
2) you don’t have to be worried about being kicked off your plan
3) you can change plans, even if you have a pre-existing condition
4) you can move to another state and know that you can still get insurance.
5) you can get plans that have been negotiated for on your behalf – so you get more coverage for the same cost (see my comment above about getting prescription coverage – for less than i had been paying).

it’s not single payer, but it might be better than what we have now.

tbsa @ 236

CTuttle @ 226

I’ll promise you that for the Primary, beyond that I’ll renege!!!

Then we’ll trade our Corporate repuke, for a Corporate Democrat.

May not be the trade I want, but if that’s what’s on offer I’ll take it. We can hold a Democrat accountable in ways we can’t hold a Republican.

burnspbesq @ 243

TRex @ 233

I could just give him a great big wet sloppy kiss.

And if he kisses you back … ???

BRAIN BLEACH, aisle one, stat!

TRex, will your note be a Late Late Nite or do we have to wait until tomorrow to read it?

TRex @ 233

I am sooooo excited that Jane got called to Asst. Principal O’Reilly’s office. You guys know what this means, don’t you? We’re goin’ UPTOWN!!

Bill has just brought us more free publicity than we could get if we payed a PR firm hundreds of thousands of dollars. I could just give him a great big wet sloppy kiss.

I’ve been jonesing for a good rumble.

*straps on armor and a helmet adorned with a giant spike*

Everybody grab your wooden stakes. We’re going over the wall.

Do you sons of bitches want to live forever?!

ATTACK!! ATTACK!! ATTAAAAAAAAAACK!!

*cough, cough*

you do warm an old(er) dude’s heart.
thanks.

“Do you sons of bitches want to live forever?!”

tbsa @ 236

CTuttle @ 226

I’ll promise you that for the Primary, beyond that I’ll renege!!!

Then we’ll trade our Corporate repuke, for a Corporate Democrat.

Look, my vote in the primary will not be for Hill, however, I will pull her lever in the General if it should come to it!!!

althespook @ 249

TJ @ 238

I just tried the My Yahoo feed, since I check that often. I’m not sure it will catch if you do an update rather than a new post though.

do you use iGoogle? or have a gmail account? cause google reader is really the best and I can walk you through it right here…

I’ve never tried it, but I’ll check it out in the morning. For now, I better get some rest. I am just soooo addicted to FDL…

CTuttle @ 239

althespook @ 225

oh yes it did. that’s what they won’t talk to me about. SOMETHING got shaken out of the trees.

Dayam, there ya go again! Where’s your minder? I need to talk to him again!!!

[AK’s Minder]

Don’t Get Me Started. Or i’ll tell you about the buttered dog incident (proceeding from the Hot Baked Potatoe Incident).

[AK’s Minder]

TRex @ 233

I am sooooo excited that Jane got called to Asst. Principal O’Reilly’s office. You guys know what this means, don’t you? We’re goin’ UPTOWN!!

Bill has just brought us more free publicity than we could get if we payed a PR firm hundreds of thousands of dollars. I could just give him a great big wet sloppy kiss.

I’ve been jonesing for a good rumble.

*straps on armor and a helmet adorned with a giant spike*

Everybody grab your wooden stakes. We’re going over the wall.

Do you sons of bitches want to live forever?!

ATTACK!! ATTACK!! ATTAAAAAAAAAACK!!

*cough, cough*

ooo, let me see if i can borrow my brother’s trebuchet. (rummages in closet for work gloves & basket) and i’ll just run out to the back forty and harvest some cow patties for ammo (gotta hurry before the developers bulldoz back 40)

mhpcr @ 250

Burns:
Can you recommend a tax attorney? I seem to be in a bit of trouble (pokey-type) and live on disability. Is there a listing somewhere of names that I might go to for my area? I apologise for intruding…

Can you email me through Facebook?

burnspbesq @ 245

TRex @ 233

I could just give him a great big wet sloppy kiss.

And if he kisses you back … ???

we get it on film.

burnspbesq @ 252

tbsa @ 236

Then we’ll trade our Corporate repuke, for a Corporate Democrat.

May not be the trade I want, but if that’s what’s on offer I’ll take it. We can hold a Democrat accountable in ways we can’t hold a Republican.

I’m not saying I would rather have a puke in the White House again. But I surely don’t see us holding anyone accountable on the war or the subversion of our civil liberties or a host of other things.

Loo Hoo. @ 243

althespook @ 148

Sorry, CT, but this is a closed CAFTA free trade deal between me and petrocelli. If you want to have your own deal, find your own canadian. or you can submit to “arbitration”. heh heh heh

And by the way, CTuttle, aren’t there some tiny little islands in your parts that might sweeten the dealio?

Nope, all are spoken for! Ya need to head further south…!!!

TRex @ 247

I’m going to write Bill-O a big thank you note tomorrow for pumping us up on Technorati. We’ve already gone up two points just since the show aired. This is gonna be so sweeeeeet.

Now if you could get Colbert to bring it up on his show …

katymine @ 42

Hi everyone….. today I saw the urologist and booked for a boat load of tests over the next week. Yes I am insured…. My employer parent company is an insurance company… my ER visit will have a $100 copay and they will pay 80% of the remainder…. So what do you think…. ER visit, lab, CT scan, ultrasound and cystoscopy will probably run about 5-10K?

I want a system like they have in Canada or France.

When visiting friends in Vancouver BC, their daughter became ill and they called the on-call doctor service and a real MD made a house call. An exam was performed, injection of antibiotics and a RX for oral antibiotics dispensed. The MD returned in 3 days to do a follow up exam. It cost the family $8.00 Canadian. The family pays a total of $1000/yr (Canadian) for a family of 4. The premium is a sliding scale per income level. It is deducted like SSI and Medicare from income received.

Simple, neat, clean, and expedient for services rendered. What’s not to like.

Wonder if my Nova Scotian wife and ME the migra would get the same if we went up north?

Cuz man, Nova Scotia has GREAT music, and well, I’m TAHRED of this crapola here in USA.

Harumph.

I want to be Mr. moderate reasonable guy here tonight, before I end up doubtful on the HRC halth care proposal.

Switzerland is most like the HRC and other honest GOPer and DLC universal healthcare proposals (that keep private insurnace companies as major players). And, yes, I think Schwarzenegger’s might be about as good as HRC, as properly beefed up and monitored by an aggressive CA Democratic state legislature.

Switzerland’s system is not bad. But there are problems:
1) Switzerland is a land of highly regulated cartels that participate in a social contract. Can we get strong insurance regulation needed to stop the adverse selection and denial of coverage games, and marekting and admin costs of US insurance industry?

2) Will Democrats in congress be as aggressive in vigilant, as CA state Democratic party. I hate to say this, but I trust the CA state Democratic party to enforce something good out of Schwarzenegger’s moderate proposals, than I do the national Democratic party to not mess up or sell out fundamentally better Democratic plans. Hate to say that, but after thing like the bankruptcy bill, I don’t trust them, until we get 30 or so more new progressive Dems in congress.

3. Switzerland has second worst wealth inequality next to US, but not close in absolute terms. Income inequality is similar to Japan, France, Germany. More homogenous population with less low income people.

4. Guess which developed country has second highest per capita health care costs? Switzerland. By some measures, Switzerland has higher per capita income than US, so they can afford it. And even though it has second higher costs, they are way less.

But, my opinion is if you want to see a well run reasonably equitable national health care system that runs along moderate GOP/DLS/HRC lines, look at Switzerland.

Problem is in US, I think high probability of getting some bad bits of Swiss system and missing some of the good. Since I don;t think there is anything as strong a social compact here, and national Dems as currently constituted would sell out.

I think public tax subsidies for coverage run to 25% of Swiss expenditures, for folks who can’t get private insurance. How will US match up to that contribution?

Netherlands is just adopted something like HRC, but they have lots of gov support, subsidies, etc. for high risk patients.

Just innertub serach: Netherlands Switzerland health care system

and you will find lots of stuff.

Don’t forget to stock up on the brain bleach.

Bill Richardson had a good quote today:

(paraphrased)

Congress continues to refuse to do anything about the President breaking the FISA laws. It’s a sad day when the New England Patriots can get in more trouble for spying on innocent Americans than the President of the United States.

HulksHeroes @ 162

Take a look at Kucinich. I swear, this man has a lot more to offer than the media and the Democratic Party are willing to show.

His health care plan is what you are looking for. His plan for getting out of Iraq is what I am looking for….NOW!! He speaks clear and clean, and he isn’t a shill for lobbyists..as are ALL the rest.

I love Kuchinich, but could he win the primary? If he did, could he win the election? If he did, could he get anything through congress?

It would be really cool if the answers to all three were yes!

At my last DFA meeting there are the comments I heard about Hillary….[AND I didn’t make them either… mine is … wouldn’t spit on her if her ass was on fire]

1. Wouldn’t even voter for her if she was a man…
2. She is George Bush in a skirt…
3. NO way, she belongs to the Fellowship, haven’t we had enough God pushed into our government?
4. Will not voter for her in the primary AND will not work for her campaign, will just sit this one out.

yellowdog jim @ 261

burnspbesq @ 245

And if he kisses you back … ???

we get it on film.

I like the way your mind works.

burnspbesq @ 245

TRex @ 233

I could just give him a great big wet sloppy kiss.

And if he kisses you back … ???

bite his lips off?

CTuttle and burnspbesq

Quite the fashion followers aren’t you? I personally am a very modern femi-Nazi so my brown shirt comes from Sass and Bide

katymine @ 269

At my last DFA meeting there are the comments I heard about Hillary….[AND I didn’t make them either… mine is … wouldn’t spit on her if her ass was on fire]

1. Wouldn’t even voter for her if she was a man…
2. She is George Bush in a skirt…
3. NO way, she belongs to the Fellowship, haven’t we had enough God pushed into our government?
4. Will not voter for her in the primary AND will not work for her campaign, will just sit this one out.

Does this mean no on the condi coin toss too?

althespook @ 231

BigMitch @ 218

Now I am really pissed.

ET got me to watch the local news on the promise that our fav congressional candidate will be on. No show.

But what I did learn is that an outright fucking criminal is the D.A. in Anchorage. She was caught cheating in court, so they re-assigned her to the hinterlands. There, she changed her name and re-emerged. It is SOOOOOO fucking sickening.

Our Governor may be good looking, but that only counts for so much.

BigMitch, between you and TPM I’m getting the impression that Alaska politics are a wee mite dirty. Like the NYC sewer system is dirty. Is there any hope anything can be done about it?

Yes, there’s hope, but it is going to be a lot of work. That’s the way it should be. There’s so much denial up here regarding the layers and layers of corruption over the years. The Repukes are taking it lately, as they fully deserve – they’ll fill a cell block with ‘em before it’s over. The Dems have been out of power for so long – except in small polities like blue legislative districts – that they’ve forgotten how to build a political movement. The Diane Benson campaign is trying to teach them how this might be done by conveying a positive image of individual and collective empowerment, and by healing the racial, social and urban/rural divides, exacerbation of which which have been the basic toolkit for the Repukes since the late 80s.

Not to sound like a broken record but…we need a soundtrack.

katymine @ 271

At my last DFA meeting there are the comments I heard about Hillary….[AND I didn’t make them either… mine is … wouldn’t spit on her if her ass was on fire]

1. Wouldn’t even voter for her if she was a man…
2. She is George Bush in a skirt…
3. NO way, she belongs to the Fellowship, haven’t we had enough God pushed into our government?
4. Will not voter for her in the primary AND will not work for her campaign, will just sit this one out.

Please do not sit this out … get a list of points against her and support another candidate by sending this out to as many people as you can in Iowa, New Hampshire, etc. and ask them to keep forwarding it.

America needs more of your involvement.

althespook @213 — I just read that to the person I’m with and we’re laughing our asses of.

Long day today, going to sleep now. But BillO really made my day.

Suzanne @ 254

TRex, will your note be a Late Late Nite or do we have to wait until tomorrow to read it?

Oh, I think we should let Jane fire the first shot across old Bill-O’s bow in the morning. I’ll swoop in for the kill once she’s torpedoed his hull and he’s taking on water.

Suzanne @ 275

Not to sound like a broken record but…we need a soundtrack.

MJQ

TRex @ 278

Suzanne @ 254

TRex, will your note be a Late Late Nite or do we have to wait until tomorrow to read it?

Oh, I think we should let Jane fire the first shot across old Bill-O’s bow in the morning. I’ll swoop in for the kill once she’s torpedoed his hull and he’s taking on water.

dang – let me just be up front and say that i don’t do patiently waiting well – but this is jane’s place and i’ll do my best to wait for her to take billo down

Ok…. I need to get my beauty sleep so I can survive all the tests…. do you think I need to study?

ticktock @ 34

Hmmmm….

Sounds like some shifty slight of hand going on…

TRex thank you for clarifying Hillary’s bold new plan to fix the health care situation….

But this feels like another train wreck waiting to happen if Ms. Clinton get the Dems prez nomination….

ReElect President Gore & VP John Edwards 2008!

Hillary will just have to get over it.

althespook @ 87

Suzanne @ 85

that was not as good as the blue one i must sadly report – it just doesn’t tickle my pickle.

“That Just Doesn’t Tickle My Pickle!” now there’s an instant t-shirt slogan…

I know I’m new in here, still . . but Suz, you got a pickle???

I was kewl with yer lil doggie, the hamlet thing in Felton, the KPIG link.

But . . . are ya sayin now I gotta call ya Chazanne, instead of Suzanne?

I’m confused, as always . . . gender inarticulate as it were . . .

persiflage @ 274

CTuttle and burnspbesq

Quite the fashion followers aren’t you? I personally am a very modern femi-Nazi so my brown shirt comes from Sass and Bide

Does that size fit ya??? ;-)

katymine @ 282

Ok…. I need to get my beauty sleep so I can survive all the tests…. do you think I need to study?

Good luck to you.

newspaperbrat @ 284

ticktock @ 34

Hmmmm….

Sounds like some shifty slight of hand going on…

TRex thank you for clarifying Hillary’s bold new plan to fix the health care situation….

But this feels like another train wreck waiting to happen if Ms. Clinton get the Dems prez nomination….

ReElect President Gore & VP John Edwards 2008!

Hillary will just have to get over it.

((((( NPB )))))

How’s it goin’, eh ?

CTuttle @ 285

persiflage @ 274

CTuttle and burnspbesq

Quite the fashion followers aren’t you? I personally am a very modern femi-Nazi so my brown shirt comes from Sass and Bide

Does that size fit ya??? ;-)

Only if I breath in permanently.

katymine @ 281

Ok…. I need to get my beauty sleep so I can survive all the tests…. do you think I need to study?

It’s like the LSAT: if you don’t know it by now, you ain’t learning it by tomorrow morning.

Hope it goes well.

kaytmine, positive warm thoughts for the test.. sleep well (and they usually tell ya if they have homework to do ahead of time)

BigMitch @ 269

Bill Richardson had a good quote today:

(paraphrased)

Congress continues to refuse to do anything about the President breaking the FISA laws. It’s a sad day when the New England Patriots can get in more trouble for spying on innocent Americans than the President of the United States.

Also today, Bill Richardson addressed the SEIU: “Thank you, AFSCME!” At the SEIU’s meeting. Oops

persiflage @ 274

CTuttle and burnspbesq

Quite the fashion followers aren’t you? I personally am a very modern femi-Nazi so my brown shirt comes from Sass and Bide

aye caramba !

… my new home page …

jane hamsher @ 277

althespook @213 — I just read that to the person I’m with and we’re laughing our asses of.

Long day today, going to sleep now. But BillO really made my day.

DOES

HAPPY

DANCE!

(made jane laugh!)

Jane, if you read this tomorrow, NDFG and I have a nice surprise in store for you and your cringing bank account in about a month. Stay toobed for further bulletins…

*stay toobed for further updates* the new information slogan of the internet age!

G’nite, Jane and Katy, and any others I missed!!!

European Observatory on Health Systems and Policies

Check out the ‘At-a-glance HiT summaries’

Switzerland doesn’t have a summary, so you will have to slog through the ‘HiT country profiles’ which are long a boring.

Almost all other European and Commonwealth countries have an at-a-glance summary. they have some for central asia now too, if you are curious.

http://www.euro.who.int/observ…..20020525_1

—–

About them:
The Observatory is a partnership between the World Health Organization Regional Office for Europe, the Governments of Belgium, Finland, Greece, Norway, Slovenia, Spain and Sweden, the Veneto Region of Italy, the European Investment Bank, the Open Society Institute, the World Bank, the London School of Economics and Political Science (LSE), and the London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine (LSHTM).
—
So, they are pretty objective and pushing some ideological line (like OECD health stuff).
As you can see, Soros funds some of it.

For all my friends who are still up.Two Sleepy People

Petrocelli @ 293

persiflage @ 274

CTuttle and burnspbesq

Quite the fashion followers aren’t you? I personally am a very modern femi-Nazi so my brown shirt comes from Sass and Bide

aye caramba !

… my new home page …

That’s a bit more fashion-forward than my trusty Drizabone.

Thanks everyone…. because they have given me the range of a SUPER severe bladder infection to bladder cancer….. will keep you posted…

demi @ 297

For all my friends who are still up.Two Sleepy People

Hi Demi!

TRex @ 233

I am sooooo excited that Jane got called to Asst. Principal O’Reilly’s office. You guys know what this means, don’t you? We’re goin’ UPTOWN!!

Bill has just brought us more free publicity than we could get if we payed a PR firm hundreds of thousands of dollars. I could just give him a great big wet sloppy kiss.

I’ve been jonesing for a good rumble.

*straps on armor and a helmet adorned with a giant spike*

Everybody grab your wooden stakes. We’re going over the wall.

Do you sons of bitches want to live forever?!

ATTACK!! ATTACK!! ATTAAAAAAAAAACK!!

*cough, cough*

Too good; too funny; too scary!

(taking off kevlar vest and putting away autographed LB dirk and settling in)

Suzanne @ 276

Not to sound like a broken record but…we need a soundtrack.

Garbage, “Vow”

I came to cut you up
I came to drag you down
I came around to tear your little world apart,
I came to shut you up,
I came to knock you down,
I came around to tear your little world apart,
And break your soul apart…

My favorite pissed-off, revenge-plotting, don’t-fuck-with-me song, EVAR!!!1!1!!!11

Hi Burns

Re 296:
Meant to say
So, they are pretty objective and NOT pushing some ideological line (like OECD health stuff).
—
At least they don’t push as hard as some international organizations. The OECD wants everyone to be like DLC and HRC.
—

OReilly? Firedoglake? What the… I will look for that news!

burnspbesq @ 297

Petrocelli @ 293

aye caramba !

… my new home page …

That’s a bit more fashion-forward than my trusty Drizabone.

The Drizabone will keep you drier though, especially with your Akubra clamped to your head.

Jane Hamsher @ 97

Didn’t know you were so up on health care policy, TRex. I’m impressed.

Nyceve is going to be posting on this tomorrow, she was on the conference call and is actually pretty impressed with the Clinton plan. Maybe you want to debate her?

What’s to debate Jane? Shilary is a front for pharma and big med.

With NO coverage for ALL, much less CARE for all!?!?!?!?

There IS no debate!!

TRex CALLED it!

Lemme know when FDL comes out for a PROGRESSIVE stand on healthcare, foreign policy, and domestic rehab!!!

When will you give Kucinich three hours of air time, like Ed Schultz did last week?

And support REAL progressives?

It’s nice what you do, but, it’s not progressive across the board, Jane. It’s just not.

And I appreciate what you DO do, but it’s just short, like the Dem’s in Congress are short.

When will you come out and annouce yer particulars with respect to progressive and centrist issues?

neurophius @ 41

burnspbesq @ 35

OK, I’ll stipulate that Clinton’s plan falls well short of solving the problem.

But can we please dispense with the silly notion that under a universal single-payer system, health care is “free?” The costs don’t magically disappear; they get funded in a different way (I believe it’s called an income tax).

But if you cut out the insurance industry profits and excessive executive compensation, you save the taxpayers a lot of money.

Not to mention administrative costs go way down. Workman’s comp premiums should go down. Auto insurance (medical liability) should go down. Taxes should not go up much, as govt. is already paying something like 60% of all medical costs already, with nowhere near full coverage.

Suzanne @ 301

(taking off kevlar vest and putting away autographed LB dirk and settling in)

‘LB’?

lorena, ct.

One more quarter into the jukebox and then I’m off to bed. Happy Tuesday to all.

I think I may have played this once before, but it still knocks me out.

AK and JD

Suzanne @ 308

lorena, ct.

You’re evil!!! :P

For the record,

The day Bill O’dildo on the phone in the shower to his worried assistant ‘Reilly took on Jane Hamsher and the pups might mark the beginning of the end of his sleazy sleaze empire. No promises, but I feel it in the air.

I caught him a bit in my 3/4-ton pickup truck with the NRA sticker next to the Diane Benson sticker, on the way out of Anchorage this late morning. He was ranting about how non-partisan he is. Uh-huh. He’s so frigging desperate. I’ve heard him seem to be this end-of-the-road show before, but there’s a new urgency.

I’m so proud of Jane, I’m misting up.

CT, you are just now figuring that out?

Suzanne @ 314

CT, you are just now figuring that out?

Some are slower than others…!!!

Hey Suzanne,
How’s the weather up there?
Any bites on the cottage?
Thanks to Burns for the AK…nice to go to sleep to.

Al Gore on Jay Leno.

Those who don’t like Hilary’s plan can relax.

David Brooks likes it.

That means it’s DOA.

Jay Leno: His secret to winning the emmy? They actually counted the votes this time.

Is this the hate speech?

—–
Note to Elizabeth Edwards: Lay Off MoveOn
By Jane Hamsher on Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 01:06 pm

We love you. We want to love you.
Knock it off.
—–

burnspbesq @ 318

Those who don’t like Hilary’s plan can relax.

David Brooks likes it.

That means it’s DOA.

Oh boy, if the wingnuts side with HRC to split the nomination …

Suzanne @ 314

CT, you are just now figuring that out?

In tribute, Ma’am…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xphpdgQSOQ

Can you email me through Facebook?

I don’t know how to do that…been meaning to have an area student come for tutoring…perhaps Suzanne could give you my email? Juggling several financial storms, but a friendly port in one would be appreciated. Any helpful word…

wesgpc @ 320

Is this the hate speech?

—–
Note to Elizabeth Edwards: Lay Off MoveOn
By Jane Hamsher on Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 01:06 pm

We love you. We want to love you.
Knock it off.
—–

Any posts about ACLU supporting Craig, that I might have missed ?

Suzanne @ 310

lorena, ct.

LOL … did LB get to Harry Reid as well ?!!

Dudes and Dudettes – I just got home and have no idea what has occurred. Can I get a rundown, please?

mhpcr, burnsie, i’ll send ya an introduction email while we wait for more trolls… but if i get busy, it may be a few…

Suzanne @ 300

(taking off kevlar vest and putting away autographed LB dirk and settling in)

autographed LB dirk? I know what a dirk is, but “autographed LB”?

Finally got around to reading Krugman’s article linked to above. It’s a must read.

mh, please send me an email at ten67x at gmail dot com please… for some reason, your email bounced back

althespook @ 328

Suzanne @ 300

(taking off kevlar vest and putting away autographed LB dirk and settling in)

autographed LB dirk? I know what a dirk is, but “autographed LB”?

Hmmm… Not as slow as I thought, Lorena Bobbitt, AK!!!

Petrocelli @ 323

Suzanne @ 310

lorena, ct.

LOL … did LB get to Harry Reid as well ?!!

pet, please see kaytmine @297. am sending good thoughts there.

testing

That’s all for me folks! I’m bidding Ya’ll another fond adieu! Aloha Oe!!!

demi, nibbles but no bites and certainly nothing on the hook – yet

is anybody still here? I got kicked off…

CTuttle @ 334

That’s all for me folks! I’m bidding Ya’ll another fond adieu! Aloha Oe!!!

Night CT.

got real quiet there, huh, al

althespook @ 332

Petrocelli @ 323

LOL … did LB get to Harry Reid as well ?!!

pet, please see kaytmine @297. am sending good thoughts there.

((((( katymine )))))

just a little server hiccup, al – maybe it is feeding time

336 comments and nobody had a positive thing to say about HRC’s plan. Including me.

But it seems to me that the plan is not so different from Schwarzennegger’s program that people were so agog about just a few days ago.

Suzanne @ 338

got real quiet there, huh, al

couldn’t get comment to post, then couldn’t refresh comments, then couldn’t get to server. sent you mail on fb and kept trying till got back on.

are the billo’s DOS attacking the server or sumpin?

BigMitch @ 341

336 comments and nobody had a positive thing to say about HRC’s plan. Including me.

But it seems to me that the plan is not so different from Schwarzennegger’s program that people were so agog about just a few days ago.

that’s because Der Governator’s plan got presented to us in a very positive light. once you get up to speed on its specifics, it stinks just as badly as HRC’s does.

Any word on whether he’ll veto “Teh Kweyah’s” Marriage Bill?

“Kalifornia” indeed.

seems to be working fine now, al – not a dos or anything else that nefarious (not that i would not put it past the trolls based on prior attacks)

Suzanne @ 344

seems to be working fine now, al – not a dos or anything else that nefarious (not that i would not put it past the trolls based on prior attacks)

okay thanks. remember, Paranoia Is My Business! (TM, SM)

Nighty night.

For those keeping score at home:

Kurdish Authorities Move Ahead With Implementing Article 140 To Allow Them To Annex Kirkuk Province And Its Oil Fields.

No word on the pipeline yet…

thanks for the update, al

test

I got a better one. Try this link for all you ever wanted to know about the us occupation of Iraq.

Y’see, i realized after reading the Kirkuk piece that a base was missing, namely in the haditha governorate to protect Teh Pipeline. So I tried to find it.

Up jumped JRC and then Global Security. I am now officially addicted to global security dot com. dayam.

newtonusr @ 349

test

we’ve been having spot outages tonight NewtonUser. It’s the billo crowd hexing the servers…

Petrocelli @ 288

newspaperbrat @ 284

ReElect President Gore & VP John Edwards 2008!

Hillary will just have to get over it.

((((( NPB )))))

How’s it goin’, eh ?

Its going pretty well all things considered – looking forward to a nice long SF weekend. Had a good day driving around the Monterey peninsula on errands today sporting my brand new blood red bumper sticker with bright white capital letters that read:

BUSH DESERVES A
THIRD TERM: PRISON

Best reception came from picketing carpenter union members who faithfully demonstrate daily at the most visited guard house to fabled Pebble Beach, bless ‘em.

And how’s life treating you dear Petro?

Thanks Alfred. I just got to the point in the thread where Jane describes “it”.

i’m back.
i couldn’t reload.

Step Away From The Salad.

yellowdog jim @ 354

i’m back.
i couldn’t reload.

that makes three of us.

i got the backstage crew working on it folks

a little thank you for the backstage crew.

althespook @ 356

yellowdog jim @ 354

i’m back.
i couldn’t reload.

that makes three of us.

suzanne, et al:
it’s all cool here now.
our blessings to the FDL tech support team.
thanks.
y’all are heroes.

yellowdog jim @ 359

althespook @ 356

that makes three of us.

suzanne, et al:
it’s all cool here now.
our blessings to the FDL tech support team.
thanks.
y’all are heroes.

what ydj said, double.

98hoaigvs;cklmnzv;n

oops, head just hit keyboard. time to go sleepy spook.

Be excellent to each other!

(poof)

BigMitch @ 341

336 comments and nobody had a positive thing to say about HRC’s plan. Including me.

But it seems to me that the plan is not so different from Schwarzennegger’s program that people were so agog about just a few days ago.

i think i liked hillary’s health care insurance plan better
than i liked the atomic bomb being dropped on hiroshima.

i didn’t like it as much as i like the movie repo man.

hillary’s plan had no suspense and no laughs that weren’t derision.
it’s sense of irony was more like hiroshima.

that’s as positive as i can get.

i was going to say it was
“better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick”,
but
that was too close to call.

nite alfred

BigMitch @ 329

Finally got around to reading Krugman’s article linked to above. It’s a must read.

Thanks. I was afraid nobody was going to read it. And it really nails the point that Trex made about why it is so wrong to cater to the insurance companies. They stabbed Hillary in the back last time, and she learned nothing from that experience..

newtonusr @ 363

nite alfred

as Batman said

yellowdog jim @ 365

newtonusr @ 363

nite alfred

as Batman said

Walked into that one.

test

wigwam @ 364

BigMitch @ 329

Finally got around to reading Krugman’s article linked to above. It’s a must read.

Thanks. I was afraid nobody was going to read it. And it really nails the point that Trex made about why it is so wrong to cater to the insurance companies. They stabbed Hillary in the back last time, and she learned nothing from that experience..

so, how do we stop the insurance companies?
who slays the dragon?

you funny yellowdog jim – tanks ;~)

newspaperbrat @ 369

you funny yellowdog jim – tanks ;~)

And YOU made my evening.

i thank you.

yellowdog jim @ 368

wigwam @ 364

Thanks. I was afraid nobody was going to read it. And it really nails the point that Trex made about why it is so wrong to cater to the insurance companies. They stabbed Hillary in the back last time, and she learned nothing from that experience..

so, how do we stop the insurance companies?
who slays the dragon?

Our dedication to ReElecting President Gore & VP Edwards should do the trick – who better to slay that nefarious pack of dragons?

Nite, Al. Monty Python reruns on PBS kept me going through this difficult technological time. My love to Dad.

I’m gonna bail for the nite too… tech crew is working on the problem and hopefully, it will be fixed soon

newspaperbrat @ 371

yellowdog jim @ 368

so, how do we stop the insurance companies?
who slays the dragon?

Our dedication to ReElecting President Gore & VP Edwards should do the trick – who better to slay that nefarious pack of dragons?

Gore/Edwards ‘08
works for me.
Gore/Anybody.
i’d take
Edwards/Richardson, too.

if only we had the choice.
just us.

i want us to nationalize the health insurance and the pharma industries.

it seems impossible.

now i too shall go offline and pass into the astral repose.

G’d evening, firepups.
I’m watching Naomi Klein on Democracy Now! talk about her new book, Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Shock Capitalism.

This is absolutely fearful stuff that the Bush White House has been trying to do with/to us. This is the militant fascism of Milton Friedman and his Neo-con students. If you read this book, you will understand the entire Bush-Cheney program. And I mean entire. And it is truly, truly evil. Yeah, you suspected that already. But this exposes the whole plan.

New Orleans, and the destruction of Iraq, were not a matter of simple incompetence. They were both part of the same plan, the same M.O.

Nixon wanted to do it, but he couldn’t do it here at home, so he exported it to Chile. The whole Pinochet regime thing was a grand Milton Friedman experiment. The trial run.

And they still have more than a year left in office– unless we impeach them.

Bob in HI

Suzanne @ 373

I’m gonna bail for the nite too… tech crew is working on the problem and hopefully, it will be fixed soon

As always you lead by doing Suze – am off to dreamtime as well. Tanks for all you do to keep da lake waters smooth and welcoming especially to us Mac folk who all too often face frustration when the comment numbers move up into the 300 range.

(((((SUZE!)))))

and (((((late late firepups one & all!)))))

Massachusetts healthcare reform. THe state mandates all people must purchase health care if your employer does not provide.

Another great deal for Americans, if you cannot afford it you must buy it. All the major health entities as listed as 501 c3’s with tax exempt status, listed as public charities with the states AG’s public charirty division. They have no tax status, are considered not for profit, and make considerable money, ie profit. If yOu want to know why healthcare cost soar, look at the lack of tax incentives and disincentives, for the tax exempt healthcare insurers and providers. The taxpayer, the citizen, the insured or uinsured gets “f’d” again. It is like rubbing salt in a wound. We know healtcare premiums and costs are high, but now you are responsible for that cost, and if you don’t get insurance there are tax consequences for the citizen, patient.
So understand this, the taxed get further taxed, by the government for failure to get health insurance, while the insurers, providers and government all have tax exempt, not for profit status? Anybody want to by some swampland in the desert of Iraq…………

A small clarification: The system in Germany is patient funded just as Social Security is in the US. A percentage of your wages (I think it’s over 10% at the moment) is withheld from your pay. That amount is matched by your employer and sent to the provider of your choice. You are then insured by that provider with the same benefits as all other insured people. Those benefits are regulated by law. The government does mix into the process pretty heavily, mostly by turning down incessant requests by the insurance companies to raise the rates or lower the benefits. I’m sure it’s not the best of all possible systems, but it does supply a measure of security, and it beats the shit out of the chaos that the U.S. has

Bush has read how many books? I’d love to see him answer a few questions about what he supposedly read. Not that I think the Press has the guts to expose the Chimp.
But come on history is not going to compare Bush’s intelect favorably to any U.S President despite all the effort going into this, no really Bush is smart spin. The only reason for this Bush is smart PR move is the fact that Bush fears how he will be compared to Bill Clinton and Al Gore in the brains department by history.
After all nothing stinks like failure and stupidity by everone in the administration will be blamed for those failure’s. Witness Rummy and Greenspan saying it wasn’t me.

Steve Bohn @ 379

A small clarification: The system in Germany is patient funded just as Social Security is in the US. A percentage of your wages (I think it’s over 10% at the moment) is withheld from your pay. That amount is matched by your employer and sent to the provider of your choice. You are then insured by that provider with the same benefits as all other insured people. Those benefits are regulated by law. The government does mix into the process pretty heavily, mostly by turning down incessant requests by the insurance companies to raise the rates or lower the benefits. I’m sure it’s not the best of all possible systems, but it does supply a measure of security, and it beats the shit out of the chaos that the U.S. has

Hey Mod, where is the rest of my comment????

Hilary had better hope that the early primary schedule sews up the presidency for her before voters start paying attention. Has James Carville gone mad?
Its still the economy stupid! Now James just what is the number one cause of bankrupcy in 2006 hmm? perhaps HEALTHCARE YOU MORONhttp://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6895896/
Now James poor folk don’t file for bankrupcy they disappear wait it out and marry someone with better credit. Its the middle class who files for bankrupcy, you know the voters you and Hilary are trying to Triangleate.
I predict Hilary is going to have a huge problem in the later primary states. Especialy when voters get more educated on her postions on healthcare and leaving troops in Iraq.

Attention: A twentyone year old kid got excited while asking John Kerry a series of questions. He wanted to know why Kerry didn’t do more to fight for the presidency when some say he actually won the election.

He wanted to know why he wasn’t supporting the Impeachment of George Bush.

HE WAS ARRESTED, HANDCUFFED, AND WHILE SCREAMING, “WHAT HAVE I DONE? WHAT HAVE I DONE?”

HE WAS TASERED.

This kid is a journalism student at the University of Florida. He was dragged off the floor for apparently ASKING QUESTIONS ANY OF US WOULD ASK, handcuffed, tasered and put in jail.

Here is the story in the Miami Herald.

Do. not. miss. the. video. link.

Do. not. miss. John. Kerry. answering. the. kid’s. question. AS. IF. NOTHING. IS. HAPPENING.

The kid is scared to death, and John Kerry seems to pretend that nothing is happening.

This kid was terrified.

Boston1775 @ 384

Attention: A twentyone year old kid got excited while asking John Kerry a series of questions. He wanted to know why Kerry didn’t do more to fight for the presidency when some say he actually won the election.

He wanted to know why he wasn’t supporting the Impeachment of George Bush.

HE WAS ARRESTED, HANDCUFFED, AND WHILE SCREAMING, “WHAT HAVE I DONE? WHAT HAVE I DONE?”

HE WAS TASERED.

This kid is a journalism student at the University of Florida. He was dragged off the floor for apparently ASKING QUESTIONS ANY OF US WOULD ASK, handcuffed, tasered and put in jail.

Here is the story in the Miami Herald.

Do. not. miss. the. video. link.

Do. not. miss. John. Kerry. answering. the. kid’s. question. AS. IF. NOTHING. IS. HAPPENING.

The kid is scared to death, and John Kerry seems to pretend that nothing is happening.

This kid was terrified.

You watched that and determined the “kid was terrified”?

things: Sho’ nuf, that’s true. and so saddening in so many ways and on so many levels…Declaration of Independence: we mututally pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honour. signed. It’s been a time.

Good morning Everybody,

I am still in shock at the arrest of Andrew Meyer, 21, a University of Florida student of journalism and communication.

Please go to his website and watch the longer video. He is shown asking the full questions and he is shown after he is arrested, tasered and taken out of the auditorium. Please listen to John Kerry.

I am absolutely flabbergasted at my own Senator.

Maybe there is a reasonable explanation.

I want one.

raven,

Go to Andrew Meyer’s website, scroll down to the first NBC video which is over six minutes long.

This kid was asking great questions.

How could this happen in America?

And yes, the kid is justifiably terrified.

I am too.

TeddySanFran had a post a while back about Arnold not wanting to sign a bill passed in Cailforna that would allow gay marriage because a voter referendum passed by payed petition getters was against it.
So now he claims that despite the years the people are still against gay marriage?
Now as a former petition signature getter I would like to expose Arnold to some facts about the biz.
Petition signature getters are poor often homeless (I was almost homless). People sign those petitions despite what ever issue crazed rightwing antitax millionare’s want put on the ballot.
Because they want to help the poor people who get paid by the signature.
Back before 9/11’s fear politics voter apathy meant that if an issue got on the ballot the hardcore GOPers could carry many a strange issue especially in low turnout elections or with the help of a media hype storm.
So when Arnold claims a mandate from the people I wonder just how many voters did vote for that issue as a percentage of the total voters. I wonder how thick the media coverage was for and against?
My guess is Arnold is claiming a Bush style election mandate for stopping gay marriage. Just like Bush claimed he had a mandate to reform social security. Now why do GOPers keep declaring victory on issues they haven’t won yet?

Good morning all, 56 and foggy in Fabulous Blue Ridge, Ga.
A bit foggy internally, as my Boyfriend stayed over.

God, I’m sad.
Have to go to work.

Boston1775 @ 388

raven,

Go to Andrew Meyer’s website, scroll down to the first NBC video which is over six minutes long.

This kid was asking great questions.

How could this happen in America?

And yes, the kid is justifiably terrified.

I am too.

So when the cops had to push him out toward the exit and he started scearming “help help help” it was because he was terrified? Terrified of what, being arrested?

something is up with my computer’s speakers, and the kids aren’t up yet. What did Andrew Meyer say?
If John Kerry giving him any help?

raven @ 392

Boston1775 @ 388

raven,

Go to Andrew Meyer’s website, scroll down to the first NBC video which is over six minutes long.

This kid was asking great questions.

How could this happen in America?

And yes, the kid is justifiably terrified.

I am too.

So when the cops had to push him out toward the exit and he started scearming “help help help” it was because he was terrified? Terrified of what, being arrested?

The cops HAD to push him?
I don’t understand.
A kid like this is our future. That was journalism.

If the cops HAD to push him, I’m not living in America anymore.

I wish I could stay to talk, I am incredibly upset by this, but I have to leave for work.

I hope I can catch you later, raven.

I want an explanation from Kerry the great antiwar protestor. I would like the kid to speak at the Lake especially if the media buries the story.
Worst case scenerio the kid is rude, snotty and who asks hard questions, if Kerry can’t handle a little democracy and answer the questions then its good he didn’t become president.
Maybe the campus police over reacted but Kerry as a former war protestor should have stuck up for the kid.
“I hope I die before I ever get old” the Who
I think getting old has nothing to do with turning into a John Kerry its about forgeting who you are and where you came from. Its about rationalizing too many of the bad things we all do.
I hope I’m wrong I want John to visit this kid, bail him out, drop the charges or at least answer the question.

MR. Bill @ 393

something is up with my computer’s speakers, and the kids aren’t up yet. What did Andrew Meyer say?
If John Kerry giving him any help?

He started by asking why Kerry didn’t contest voter fraud in the 2004 election. The book he has in his hand is apparently about that. They had a 2 minute time limit. He went on for some time and you can hear Kerry ask him what the question was. Meyer somehow went into a rant about Iraq. The mic was turned off so he started yelling. Again you can hear Kerry say,”Let me try to answer his question”. The cops, at least one a woman, are moving him toward the back when he stats screaming “help help help”. It then degenerates into a scuffle and as he continues to resist they taser him.