Well, it’s been another week – and we’re still on the Residual Troops Watch. Another week with no word from the big three campaigns on their plans to leave residual troops in Iraq after/if they become president. Plans for ending the occupation are central to our choice of a candidate and yet Clinton, Obama and Edwards still refuse to answer: “How many, how long?”
Senator Dodd also has not answered but he gets props for working hard to move the Senate to refuse to give George another blank check and he still needs our help. Governor Richardson remains the only major candidate who has made his plans for Iraq crystal clear – all troops out, no residual forces.
Seems like the voters deserve a clear answer on this – and that some candidates really don’t want to give one. Wonder why that is….
Meanwhile back in the real world outside the Petraeus bubble, US supply lines look shakier than ever, devastated Iraqi families die and flee, Cholera is spreading across Iraqi governates, and Baghdad, like Falluja, has been “pacified” by turning this once vibrant city into a collection of virtual prison neighborhoods.
Iraqis entered the month of Ramadan with hope of one good development. US and Iraqi officials had promised to release detainees, held without trial or charges. While some releases are occurring, Azzaman notes that the numbers are very low compared to the total of 100,000 held:
With the advent of the holy month of Ramadan, many hoped U.S. and Iraqi authorities would settle the issue of tens of thousand of Iraqi prisoners.
U.S. troops hold 23,600 Iraqis almost all of them without trial. The U.S. has promised to release 50 of them every day throughout Ramadan.
But the U.S. is not the only authority with the right to jail Iraqis. Iraqi armed forces and police can also imprison Iraqis without trail and informed sources say there are more than 82,000 Iraqis in government jails.
Prisoners have become one of the thorniest issues blocking the path to reconciliation with government opponents, particularly the Sunnis demanding the immediate release of all those who have not been convicted of a crime.
But neither the U.S. nor the government is willing to heed the Sunni demand.
The government has only agreed to release 200 on the occasion of the holy month and the U.S. has accepted to free about 1,500.
Most of these prisoners are snatched from their families or haphazardly arrested during military campaigns or on checkpoints.
(snip)
The Justice Ministry is increasing the pressure on the Iraqi government, U.S. troops and Kurdish authorities to let a high judicial commission examine the files of all prisoners.
The ministry would like the commission to have the prerogative to set all the prisoners who have not been convicted free and expedite the trial of those accused of committing a crime.
Strange how all the benchmarks touted by Washington insiders skip such simple goalposts as basic legal protections for Iraqis.
The YouTube above is Rev Yearwood’s speech after his arraignment this week – it’s been circulating a lot but I wanted to make sure folks had a chance to see it. The Reverand and Iraq Vets against the War as well as many others will spend this week in DC demanding action from Congress. Let’s make sure that we add our voices to theirs with calls, faxes and emails even if we’re not actually there in person.
h/t Jerid
Related posts:
- Changing of the Guard: US Troops Withdraw from Iraqi Cities; Maliki Declares “Sovereignty Day”
- Remember Iraq or Ray Odierno is Still Wrong
- More Troops for Afghanistan? Faster Withdrawal from Iraq?
- Torture: Obama Heeded Maliki on Abuse Photos, Says McClatchy; What That Says for Our Occupation
- Maliki vs. Odierno: Who Blinks First?





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Zed!
boo
zed.
Oooh, accidental zed?
aaaaaand not EVEN close!
FunnyD
drat…’evening, Siun.
Evenin’ Siun!
Evening everybody!
So was anyone in DC yesterday? I’ve been watching the youtubes.
Siun @ 7
Jonathan and Kathyrn, who just posted Pixs in EPU land…!!!
Front runners. What exactly is your script for Middle East peace?
Siun @ 7
Yes, and gradually putting up pix. will continue with more tomorrow. Due to inability to sleep on a bus, am retiring for the evening. ***smooches*** to all.
http://www.ykosfdl.blogspot.com/
Siun, I just don’t believe any of them have any intention to withdraw…I’m sure you’re familiar with Brezenski’s The Grand Chessboard, where he talks about the strategic (oil) value of the Caspian basin, plus the close proximity of the ME. With a large field army forward-deployed in the area, the US is in the position to veto access to all of the above…this is an extremely powerful strategic position, and a position few American Presidents are likely to willingly resign, without extreme persuasion.
One person’s quagmire is another’s strategic placement.
Siun @ 7
I was there, and all I have to say is, it felt like democracy.
Thanks Siun.
It’s the “secret plan to end the Vietnam War”, part II.
Some people need to be reminded that Nixon almost lost in ‘68 when Humphrey made a late run and Nixon refused to clarify what his secret plan was.
What?
BTW, Kathryn in MA, great pics!
Haven’t seen much of Richardson but I’ve liked what I’ve seen. Seems buried in the pack right now..wonder if he has a chance.
There have been enough establishment type experts who have laid their cards on the table for both Democratic and Republican candidates to start laying out detailed plans. There is plenty of ‘cover’ to counter the corporate media nursery school story lines.
Here is the one from Col Patrick Lang, Vietnam veteran and Middle East foreign affairs and intelligence services veteran. These campaigns all have their chosen experts, so they all should be able to produce something this specific. Lang has appeared on CNN’s mainstream shows often.
http://turcopolier.typepad.com…..ogram.html
Thank you, Elliot and CTuttle!
Yay Kathryn! Jonathan! Bluejeansntshirt!
Looks wonderful from the videos … I got that People United buzz just from watching!
Care to tell any tales?
And is anyone doing any of this week’s lobbying?
I may be in DC and is so will join in…
and DRon – now, off to bed.
Kathryn in MA @ 20
Heh, must be sleepy…!!! Nite, Ma’am!!!
From Dennis4President.com:
The details of his plan — which vaguely suggests he will bring home all of the troops, but that there will be an international peacekeeping force — can be found here.
good night, Kathryn! sleep well.
Please fix links! 404 and 500 errors.
New game, CT
Don’t have time to track it down right now but I though Edwards had clarified his stand on this.
Am I wrong?
Chargers gettin the shit kicked out of em
Hate ta see poor Norv takin it on the chin- bein a Duck an all- too bad.
The next president needs to be aware that we need a complete over haul of our Middle East policies. Beginning with an even handed settlement of the Israeli-Palestinian situation.
Extremely moving and impressive video of the hiphop caucus reverend with the other iraq vets.
that’s pretty powerful stuff.
I assume edwards, obama, and hillary have not spoken out against his mistreatment.
on to tehran!!! on to damascus!!!
rwcole @ 16
Seems like Richardson’s chance is somewhat better than Kucinich’s chance which resembles the chance that a snowball has in hell. But its still a chance. /s
BigMitch @ 25
It’s a pitcher’s duel, two ancient masters squaring off, the last time they dueled was Game 1, WS ‘01!!!
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 29
They Betrayus too..
hackworth @ 30
Kucinich way ahead of the pack in blind taste tests. That is surveys where they ask Dems for positions on issues and match them with candidates.
BigMitch @ 33
Richardson and Kucinich are the two candidates who say bring all the troops home.
There are many things I like about a pitcher’s duel. One thing is it makes certain people comment that baseball is boring, and then I know never to pay attention to their opinion on anything.
Refresh your pages and all the links should now be fine. Apologies!
Kerry was great on Meet the Press this morning. McCain kept interrupting him. Kerry kept saying that we needed “leverage” in Iraq, and that we needed to “surge the diplomacy”.
Kerry was saying that the troops should be reduced over the next year.
On “This Week” the panel seemed to agree that the troop level would not go below 60,ooo.
If you have not seen the movie “No End in Sight” it is well worth it.
http://www.noendinsightmovie.com/
ploeg @ 13
I don’t know what year this is from, but the Dems should take note of this Nixon campaign commercial
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5fE2tXxBOw
Baseball is so boring I almost never read peoples comments who might discuss it.
But I am also a Kucinich supporter..)
BigMitch @ 22
The details of his plan — which vaguely suggests he will bring home all of the troops, but that there will be an international peacekeeping force — can be found here.
Strange that the only candidate to disclose a crystal clear progressive position on every issue of importance is the one we have written off as a can’t win no matter what candidate.
BigMitch @ 35
Particularly when it’s two future Hall-of-Famers on the mound…!!! 8-)
Good evening everyone! I was able to avoid the sunday yack fests and spent the day outside enjoying the not as hot weather. I was almost afraid to come to the lake and find out what wingnuttery has oozed up from the depths. As ever, I am grateful for the stout souls who keep track of the lunacy for us all.
Kucinich has become the perennial 1% of the vote candidate..I don’t pay any attention to him unless I need to be entertained.
Richardson has been working Iowa hard hopin for a pop up. If not- he’s done.
BigMitch @ 22
The details of his plan — which vaguely suggests he will bring home all of the troops, but that there will be an international peacekeeping force — can be found here.
Kucinich convinced/pushed other Congress members to vote against the war resolution in Oct 2002
Kathleen @ 37
My bride went it see it last night while I watched football. She said, “you don’t need to see that, it’ll just make yo madder”!
I don’t know what year this is from, but the Dems should take note of this Nixon campaign commercial
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5fE2tXxBOw
************
wow. spectacular con job.
Hiya Siun.
Are any of these real criminals? What kind of stuff is illegal over there? If they didn’t have trials does that mean they didn’t have lawyers and plea bargains too?
Strange that the only candidate to disclose a crystal clear progressive position on every issue of importance is the one we have written off as a can’t win no matter what candidate.
weird eh? almost like it’s been…………scripted in advance…….
Can Halliburton jail Iraqis? How much do they charge?
SnarKassandra @ 47
Didn’t or don’t?
1,600 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON…
Citizen Siun and the Firepup Patriots:
Thanx you sister Siun, the video must be seen by everyone in the progressive community and all those who are wondering what we are to do…where do we put our energy…how do we end this terrible war…who do we trust to advance our cause and the cause of all common people.
Those who have been wringing their hands and condescendingly chastising Code Pink for the courage to stand up and tell truth to liars…those who are concerned about “Hip Hop” representatives getting arrested while tryin to witness a congressional hearing…those who are worried that those “crazy anti-war people” will become the symbol of democratic opposition…for all you people, watch this video and then watch a tape of the first three days of the 1968 Democratic Convention. This “hip hop” Reverend and those Code Pink people are carryin us on their shoulders…there is nuthin other than ending the war, no agenda, no presidential campaign, no senate hearings, no legislative initiatives, no congressional campaigns. There is nuthin’ but ending the war and making the Democratic Party responsible for doin it or we will break it down and rebuild it without the chickenshit “liberals” and the cocktail party “progressives” who are responsible for gettin us in this mess in the first place.
KEEPTHE FAITH AND DON’T BE DISTRACTED ANYMORE!!
madmommy @ 42
What happened to your ‘Aints??? My Broncos, squeaked by…!!! ;-)
john in sacramento @ 38
Wow! A powerful ad. Though looking back, knowing what we know now, gives it a different perspective from the one intended. But I was only 3 in 1968, so I don’t have any personal memories of that time.
Like — did they have a lawyer and a plea bargain after they got arrested? Or are they JUST in jail.
Gotta keep Iraqis in jail to keep em from indulging in Iraq’s two favorite pastimes- killin other Iraqis and leavin Iraq.
I heard this interview with Leon Panetta this morning that I think contained some interesting information. You can click on the hyperlink ‘KCBS In Depth: The Iraq War’ or the first two buttons from the left immediately below the description that appears on the page. The interview will also replay tonight at 7PM if you are live in SF Bay or Sacramento area in CA. You can use the middle button to download an mp3 file, which might be good to do soon since they seem to lag a couple of months in putting these interviews into the archives.
KCBS In Depth: The Iraq War
The guest is former White House Chief of Staff and Congressman Leon Panetta. (9/16; 27:10)
http://www.kcbs.com/pages/7747.php?
The two most interesting and damning bits are these
1) Panetta says Cheney-bush are moving the goalposts not only to kick the can to the next president, but to finagle a way to establish their Korea scenario. If the goalpost becomes incremental progress in maintaining security, and becomes the accepted definition of success, then groundwork laid for decades long occupation. Even with high levels of violence and suffering for both US troops and Iraqis
2) Panetta seems to say that Cheney-bush did LESS to further political reconciliation inside Iraq this summer than previously during occupation. Listen and see if you agree. If that is true, the question is, do Cheney-Bush want real reconciliation and political progress? I think at this point the sensible answer is no.
Listen and see if you agree with my take.
Now that Greenspan has mainstreamed the rather obvious point that to some extent the war was about oil it is time to start asking about the administrations’ intentions (and I think good reason to believe that it was 100% about oil and power projection for the Cheney faction -only question has ever been whether those people are really that stupid).
It is harder and harder to deny that there is a real possibility (which is becoming probability) that Cheney-Bush’s goal is force a long term large scale military occupation in Iraq for platform to launch more Middle East policy and humanitarian disasters. That is a major policy decision, a very stupid one, a very immoral one, that the voters of this country and Congress need to debate. It needs to be debated loudly and clearly. And if Cheney-Bush have used subterfuge and lies to force this policy on the US and Iraq, seems to me more evdidence of high crimes and misdemeanors. Same if they have intentionally been negligent in working on political reconciliation. Of course, they did work a lot on pressing for their darling little oil lawy, but that has gone nowhere. What else have they done?
Time to start talking big picture and asking big picture questions. Congress? Congress? hello… Congress?
madmommy @ 42
My opinion is that John Kerry on MTP gave a ppoor performance. “No one is talking about complete withdrawal.” Excuse me?
RonD @ 11
Excellent point. And of course feeding that which we dare not name is very high on the list of reasons why The MeatGrinder is supported by so many on both sides of the aisle.
CTuttle @ 52
God, just don’t go there! I could have suited up my granny’s bridge club and they could have done better. Coach is not a happy camper, and I would not have wanted to be on that plane comming back to NOLA.
nixon’s ad was crafted by some savvy media people.
probably antiwar ‘liberals’ who didn’t want to turn down a good buck (sheer speculation).
using the images of horror to decry ‘mismanagement’ and pretend it would [all go bye bye] be ’solved’ by new leadership.
SnarKassandra @ 54
No due process now or then.
BigMitch @ 57
Uh, what happened to; “Who shall be the last man to die…???” Hmmm…
“There was a time when the I/P issue rarely was brought up at fdl.”
Thompson could well have a secret plan to end the war- secret even from him- double secret.
Who is objecting to this? US or Maliki?
SnarKassandra @ 65
The Iraqi Justice ministry.
rwcole @ 64
didn’t the iraq war start before the terry schiavo fiasco/tragedy?
if so, he’s probably forgotten about it.
CTuttle @ 62
Kerry is dead to me. After he jumped on the slam MoveOn bandwagon, I lost all respect for him. You’d think that someone who had been slimed, more than once, would be more discerning than to use GOP talking points against progressives.
A little WH kicback at Greenspan:LINK
64 rwcole says
September 16th, 2007 at 6:40 pm
Thompson could well have a secret plan to end the war- secret even from him- double secret.
—-
Mr. rwcole, excuse me, but the Iraq war started four years ago, do you think Fuhgedaboudit Fred remembers what it is all about? I think not. Unlikely. Very unlikely.
This should piss ya’ll off.
Frank Rich:
Kathleen @ 37
Kathleen, I thought Kerry did a damn fine job against the Maverick and the Media Whore whose message is controlled by the WH.
Kerry was clear, concise and articulate, without the rambling excessive monologues that were a factor in his losing presidential bid. I was proud of him.
Great article by Ray McGovern
http://www.informationclearing…..e18406.htm
McCain To MoveOn: Get Out Of This Country
http://www.informationclearing…..e18394.htm
OT – Just happened to be cruising over the TV Guide….
UNC-Greensboro economic professor Bruce Caldwell discusses economist F.A.Hayek’s influential book (1944), “The Road to Serfdom.”
Don’t know crap about Bruce Caldwell, but I actually was checking out Hayek’s book on Friday. Part of discussion on class structure in this country, etc.
madmommy @ 68
Kerry lost the election to Bush. What more do you have to know to conclude that he’s a knucklehead? He re-negged on his promise to see that every vote was counted. What more do you have to know to conclude that he’s not a spokesman for mainstream Democrats? And he doesn’t have a plan for ending the war.
wesgpc @ 70
rwcole’s post read as snark to me.
Fred seems not to be able to remember much of anything, wonder if he has a microchip embedded in his neck in case he wanders off and can’t find his way home?
dang, some one beat me to the Thompson senility/memory lapse issue.
Speaking as a lifelong Democrat, I have to say that I am extremely enthusiastic about Fred Thompson’s candidacy, and applaud his strong work so far. I hope he keeps it up!
Hi makes Reagan look like Aristotle, Einstein, Confucious and Jeffeson all rolled up into one.
It’s a tossup for me – HBO tonight, ‘Snakes on a mf*cking Plane’ or something educational.
raven @ 71
Pissed off cause he is right that the dems are wimps?
BMitch we disagee again..oh well
SnarKassandra @ 79
And because “some” think the moveon headline was stupid.
BigMitch @ 35
memories of days with the wireless burbling away in the background,punctuated by enthusiastic yells and cries of “kill tha bludy ref,that bastard.mean’t nothing to me,just the grownups being their usual incomprehensible selves.footy in the winter,cricket in the summer.
it mean’t life was normal,time mooched forth and all was well.
this is not a sports column is it?
no.
really?
really!!(well, sort of.little bit squeezed in here and there.)
TILLMAN.
wesgpc @ 77
Be careful what you wish for! The GOP is praying for the second comming of Reagan, and they’re thinking Fred is it. There are plenty of stupid people out there who will eat him up with a spoon,never thinking for a moment that he’s not just an empty suit, but an empty head, as well.
No one has ever gone broke underestimating the stupidity of the general public.
Kathleen @ 80
What? You like the Red Sox??
Like all great pitcher’s duels, this one has its share of sparkling defensive gems, even if the only red sox run is unearned.
BigMitch @ 84
I flipped over from the Pats, game, they are already up 24-0. Looks as though the Sox need some extra cheering from me.
BTW, on the football pre-game, Costas announced that KO is in the hospital, emergency appendectomy. Have I been completely out of the loop? Hadn’t heard anything about it till tonight.
“Front-runners”. Is that what is meant by those having the most money in their war chest?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 87
I think it means the ones that the TV reporters like the best and have been pushing at us for months already.
Kerry didn’t lose to Bush. Kerry won the election. Ohio corruption threw the election to Bush.
ballot boxes secreted away during ‘terror alerts,’ oh my god the list is endless….
madmommy @ 86
That is sad, I’m hoping for a speedy recovery for KO!!!
madmommy @ 83
Maybe. But have you listened to Thompson? In statistics, Thompson is what you would call a very large extrapolation outside the historical sample. He seems to have no skills whatever. And he doesn’t even seem willing to memorize a script, and doesn’t bother with deliver. Both Reagaon and Bush II beat him by far there when they were candidates. I guess Thompson is one of those artistis who won’t work on spec.
But then, I agree it is worrisome. All except McCain are outside the historical sample of nothingness, and they have positive poll numbes. That is worrying.
Good nite all.
I hate baseball :0
The view here is that the Israeli government would be more than happy to see the Israeli-Palestinian problem not brought up.
Kerry on Meet the Press. See for yourselves
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032608/
Kerry also spent a good deal of time on the deaths and the op-ed piece written by the seven soldiers in the New York Times. Kerry also referred to the soldier Staff Sgt Jeremy Murphy who had been shot in the head.
ccmask @ 92
pretend it’s cricket!!! :-)
ccmask @ 92
Bye.
But you can stay and talk about other stuff.
Uhoh, sounds like Clemens is done for the nite…!!!
Transcript of the Yearwood ‘tube?
Someone above mentioned Edwards – Edwards made a big speech about Iraq but didn’t give specifics on residual forces.
We just want a simple answer.
Cassie – when the US troops and the Iraqi troops break into Iraqi houses in the middle of the night, they often grab all men in the house and haul them off to be detained. Large numbers (as you can see) have simply been held with no charges, no trial, no lawyer, no nothing – just held.
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 67
Now that is funny, Mabel! But Freddie should be called on anything he says that would involve recollection before Schaivo. Not that I think Freddie will be the republican candidate. It might well be Hagle.
SnarKassandra @ 88
DING!
SnarKassandra @ 79
If we don’t say anything we’re wimps. If we do, we’re shrill. Yes, I’m pissed.
CTuttle @ 90
Costas was sitting there, all alone, and the camera panned out the window as he said that the appendectomy was the reason KO wasn’t there. Then he said he was at some hospital in NYC, then the camera zoomed in on a building until there was a tiny picture of KO in a window. Then he said since Keith wasn’t willing to play hurt they would soldier on without him, and he would be questionable for next week.
ccmask – I like baseball but think it’s sorta rude to interrupt discussions to play sports blog esp as soon as a new post goes up. Perhaps I’m oldfashioned but there it is.
yes thompson is now on record as being unable to remember two years ago.
that could be used over and over and over again to ridicule his candidacy.
Don’t they know that Americans and people in other countries would all much rather see that people get trials and lawyers and get to have their rights?
wesgpc @ 91
I agree with you, it’s just that the bar is set so low nothing would surprise me anymore.
ccmask @ 92
what’s base ball?
Madmommy:
Kerry is dead to me. After he jumped on the slam MoveOn bandwagon, I lost all respect for him. You’d think that someone who had been slimed, more than once, would be more discerning than to use GOP talking points against progressives.
I so agree with you. If he doesn’t have something worthwhile and productive to say, he should remain silent. That was ugly, and fits beautifully with any hope the republicans have; divide the dems.
Siun @ 104
My humble apologies, Siun, I’ll refrain in the future!!! 8-(
no no
i didn’t mean it.
scrub that last question!!!
TILLMAN.
madmommy @ 103
Did they want him to go on TV from the hospital?????
Cassie – a large number of the folks being detained are being held by US forces … so I guess we can’t say America would be happier, eh?
Gore’s on the emmy show.
I don’t see how the Democrats can really shift the dynamic of this debate without pointing out something that is fundamental to the stalemate in Iraq, as far as I can tell:
The Iraqi people as a whole are not represented by the American Green Zone’s Iraqi Cabinet and Ministers, who are instead doing the bidding of their American occupiers and protectors.
An astonishingly-united 98% of Iraqis just polled think that an Iraq divided into sectarian partitions is a bad thing, and a significant majority want us to depart their land:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6983841.stm
Yet the White House and its apologists are being allowed to get away with saying that “the Iraqis want us there” – because the corrupt, appointed, former exiles holding the reins of power in the Iraqi Cabinet and heading up the Ministries financed by American cash “agree” with that statement when bribed or threatened into it by the Americans for the benefit of the media. [Witness al-Maliki saying we could leave one minute, and just before the dog and pony show last week, suddenly reversing and saying it was vital that we stay.]
So good faith Members of Congress seriously need to start respecting the perspective of the majority in the Iraqi parliament – whose members seem to be mightily opposed to the wholesale sell-off of their nation that is occurring under the “overwatch” of the American occupiers and their Iraqi puppets in the Green Zone. I’m starting to think that the only ally the people of Iraq now have is their parliament (minus the cabinet members), and our Congress is doing absolutely nothing to help that body represent the people. When Democrats pretend that the Iraqi people want us to stay, so the only way to make them take “responsibility” (for the violent chaos we have fostered) is to leave – it’s just laughable. That’s exactly what Iraqis want us to do, so naturally no one has any real intention of actually relinquishing our new-found Middle East colony by leaving. But this should be loudly pointed out – to force the occupiers to publicly deny it.
This may come down to a showdown at the United Nations next week, when Security Council Resolution 1546 – which ends our legal cover in Iraq as of 12/31/07 – may be up for discussion. The U.S. is once again – despite a majority vote by the Iraqi parliament to prevent it – going to try to end-run the parliament to get the Iraqi Green Zone puppets to ask the U.N. to allow the U.S. to remain as the de facto owner of that country. Our Congress ought to be preventing that by loudly demanding that the will of the Iraqi people be heeded, rather than the sectarian agendas of the corrupt Green Zone ministers who are now benefiting at the Iraqi nation’s expense while cooperating with the Americans overseeing Iraq’s dissolution:
http://globalresearch.ca/index…..p;aid=6783
madmommy @ 68
Kerry is Polonius in the play of Hamlet.
Siun @ 113
Not BUSH=America. US the people = AMERICA. WE would rather they have rights.
Siun @ 104
yeah I hear you. Man did you see Favre’s passing game today? (sorry, I’m a smartass)-
but your comment about the men just hauled off to jail in iraq- men and probably teenage boys- just to take no chances-just to sit and rot- it’s like the destruction/enslavement is well thought out i.e. indians on reservations.
i think the u.s.a. and israel planned this very carefully before it began.
raven @ 81
Some people do think the headline was stupid. And that’s a question on which reasonable people can differ. To the extent that we continue to snipe at each other on that subject, the bad guys have achieved their objective.
Eye on the ball, please.
Siun @ 99
And the best part is then we have to choose: keep them indefinitely against all Geneva Conventions as well as Constitutional edicts, or eventually let them out, at which point the are ripe for the picking by any extremist group you wish to choose. It is a sickening choice either way, brought to you daily by the all wrong, all the time, total fuck up Bush gang. GWB has been the best recruiter Al-Queida could ever hope for. Why should they attack us here, Bush is doing exactly what they want, and has for nearly 7 years.
So now it turns out that it was about the oil.
Alan Greenspan saying as much.
I am not shocked to hear this from him.He as much as anyone surely knows how monetary policy is tied into energy policy.
He sadly sold out on his credibility long ago.
For those of us who very early on came to this “hit me over the head with a hammer” painfully clear conclusion it only took four years for WashDC to admit as much.
Truth can be so painful to face and admit to.
As for the American Occupation of Iraq anyone who still thinks it has nothing to do with oil,the control of Iraqi oil and greater ME schemes and dreams of the warmongering Americans how many more clues do you need?
As it is plain the DC DEMS and going along with the Americans First/ME Oil Is For USA way of thinking it is hardly surprising the oft mentioned “front-runner” Hillary Clinton is in full duck and dodge mode about a long,ongoing American Iraq Occupation.
Just what is her position? Exactly.Truthfully.
As for Barack and John I will likely support either of them before Hillary. Still hope Al Gore may run. He deserves to follow G.W.Bush most based on the rules of political payback.
This rot however has been going on with the American position/posture towards Israel and Arab Palestine for a long while. Those who just can not bring themselves to see or admit the Israelis are doing some truly bad things in Arab Palestine or do not deserve the title as “the good guys who are victims” what is happening in Iraq really should not surprise.
If you will not see Israel for what it is or is doing in Arab Palestine then it surely is going to be a long stretch to see that Americans invading/occupying Iraq over oil is some damn bad business.
Hitler and his Nazis and the Imperial Japanese of the WW2 era were fully seen as being wrong going with this sort of conduct.
They were considered to be war criminals for having done it in ways that caused many civilians to die whether based on ruthless air attacks,torture,garrison power abuse or sending innocents to certain death in gas chambers or worse.
We Americans are now in real danger on charges of being war criminals.
Americans. The ‘good guys’in ME today? Hardly.
Ah Cassie … I agree but it is our government and our military that rounds up those detainees – and our taxes that pay the bills.
We need to do more.
CTuttle @ 97
Que lastima.
SnarKassandra @ 112
Just sports snark, KO was the master of it in his former gig at ESPN. The Big Show with him and Dan Patrick was must see.
Siun @ 99
If Hills, Barack or Johnny give a direct answer, it will be a miracle. They all want to stay and help Big Oil steal the oil.
They especially fear Big Oil, Big Pharma, Insurance Co’s, A*P*C, GE, Dyncorp, Halliburton, Rupert Murdoch, etc.
I mean fear in the biblical sense. Like you fear god. My old baptist minister said fear means respect in the bible verses I questioned. I wonder why they just didn’t say respect in the first place.
If we don’t like the MSM’s candidates, then we should speak out in no uncertain terms.
Kirk Murphy I directed this towards you, not talking around an individual like they are not even here. Stop being childish and direct the question right at me or who ever you need to.
If the I/P issue is not dealt with nothing is resolved in the middle east. That conflict and how it influences the whole region and our foreign policy is woven into many issues.
“If that issue brings up anger confusion and resentment up for you, I’m sorry. I for one would like to see that conflict resolved.”
I know clearly what my intentions are which is to push for resolution and honest debate about this issue. (which is avoided in the MSM and on so called “progressive” blogs. And whether you want to deal with the fact that this issue permeates into many many other foreign policy issues…you can continue to get defensive and stick your head in the sand
To push for honest reporting in regard to the I/P issue. Those of us who have been involved with this issue ( 25 years for me) know that it has been shut down for debate in the MSM, and I don’t care what the bloggers here at FDL say, it has not been part of the dialogue and debate here at FDL for that long, but it is getting better and more civil.
Kathleen @ 127
sorry meant to link this to last thread
So Siun what do we DO?
Siun @ 104
Yes! Especially when it is a substantive post.
HRC. My unchoice candidate for prez. Followed closely by Obama. I do not trust either of these two to work tirelessly as did Carter for peace in the Middle East.
Mabel’s – we know that Israeli soldiers were in Abu Ghraib and operating/training in Kurdistan (and that the Kurdish Peshmerga have been used to “pacify” Baghdad) – and the methods used are frighteningly similar to those used by Israel against Palestinians so I think that’s a safe bet.
George really wants to have big balls like Sharon and crew.
And today is the anniversary of Sabra and Shatilla.
JPL @ 114
He got an Emmy for current tv.
Next hopefully a Nobel and then on to the job to which he was elected in 2000.
Siun @ 99
Can you imagine that happening in America? I do not understand why BushCo are not behind bars. Imagine your brother being raided, hauled off with no charges and no attorney, and imprisoned indefinately?!
Probably has been mentioned here in the last few days, but Steven Levitt references an interesting academic paper in the Freakonomics mold concerning the surge.
The paper is available here.
Per world financial markets, it appears the surge is a bust for the long term future of Iraq.
Which reminds me… how did the WSJ miss that whole Greenspan/Iraq/Oil thing? Didn’t they have a copy of the book?
peanutbutter @ 98
Lots of talk about when his leg was broken and arrest Bush, not Rev.
The people in the Middle East will not stand for residual occupation.
hackworth @ 125
the translation of the word fear in Hebrew can also be interpreted as awe. Makes a lot of Biblical verses more palatable.
Loo Hoo. @ 134
It happened to Padilla. And it happens to Foreigners in airports. And to Mexicans here.
Gore.
Loo Hoo. @ 134
Because so many people just don’t seem to give a shit about brown people halfway around the world. And the stick their heads in the sand and think it can never happen here, even though the mechanism is in place right now to do that very thing.
Siun @ 132
How do we know this?
Re Gore … I am impressed with his recent work but if he ran, I’d want him to answer the same questions … How many left, for how long?
This is not about endorsing anyone, it’s about demanding that all candidates answer the most fundamental question.
We deserve at least that.
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 89
Well, I actually agree with you on this, even though my previous note said that he lost the election. I’ve checked the math, and the chances that the exit polls would all be wrong in the same direction are astonomical. But it just means that Kerry’s reluctance to challenge the election is all the more disgraceful.
Siun @ 104
I’ve never said anything about this either. I’m here for politics and related scandals. Isn’t there a site related to FDL that was used during the Libby trial for comments that could perhaps be used for sports talk? Love you guys.
Fern – the presence of Israeli advisors at Abu Ghraib was widely reported, the activities in the North were reported by Seymour Hersh as well.
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 60
This advert should be instructive to all who think a Dem in the WH is all it will take to straighten out the mess in Iraq/Iran/Syria/Israel/Lebanon/Turkey…
Our ‘make it up as we go along, just so long s we can establish replacement bases for our former Saudi presence’ policy has further destabilized the region to the point that it may be difficult to get out.
In a sense Iraq has become a self-fulfilled prophecy.
In another sense, US policy has been the most effective aid to al Quaida’s strategic objectives.
madmommy @ 141
The mechanism is more that in place. It is no accident that prison guards were recruited for guard duty in Iraq.
My guess that the difference between American jails and Iraqi jails is only a matter of degree.
BigMitch @ 144
yes indeed. which throws me for a loop unless………(insert paranoid cynical thought here >_____________)
madmommy @ 141
That’s right. Halfway around the world, yes. They don’t even like the brown people in their own hemisphere. The Big Fat R’s on teevee fuel the racism.
Siun @ 146
I guess I missed this one.
Siun @ 132
Iraq similar to Sabra and Shatilla in that the ethnic tensions and hatred were understood and as Ariel Sharon provided an enviroment for the slaughter of Palestinians to take place, we have provided the same opportunity for the sectarian violence to take place in Iraq which we know has turned into a genocide.
When Kerry was talking about the “surge in diplomacy” that the Bush administration has had “ample” time to push for. Kerry brought up how there should be a huge focus on a MIDDLE EAST CONFERENCE ON IRAQ.
Fern @ 148
Exactly. The problem is in trying to get the wingnuts to understand that. It is an uphill battle.
hackworth @ 150
DON’T DISS BROWN PEOPLE. We have rights too! We are important!
All candidates should answer the same questions. Truthfully.
Fern @ 142
Really. How do we know this? (I didn’t and for the record, I sincerely doubt it. Like sincerely willing to bet against it.)
Fern @ 148
what was graners’ (abu ghraib)comment?
something along the lines of
the christian disapproving
but the corrections officer
loving to make a grown man piss on himself.
SnarKassandra @ 154
I don’t think anyone here is dissing brown people, just pointing out a mindset among a certain portion of the citizenry.
Siun @ 143
agreed.
Mitch,
The Silvers are in the smoker developing a pellicle under the fan and breeze. They’re huge, from Valdez. Should be done early Wednesday.
Preps for Diane Benson’s press conference tomorrow went well. If asked about residual troops in Iraq, she will have an answer, but that won’t be the reason for the conference.
DrFrankLives @ 157
Say what?
Anybody know this person?
152
Kathleen says
When Kerry was talking about the “surge in diplomacy” that the Bush administration has had “ample” time to push for. Kerry brought up how there should be a huge focus on a MIDDLE EAST CONFERENCE ON IRAQ.
That was a super Kung Fu kick in the ass for McCain and the Media Whore who specializes in disseminating Big D*ck’s propaganda.
wesgpc @ 56 – Sounds to me like Leon Panetta has nailed it (going by your summary rather than the recording). Good for him for telling the truth (or part of it, if he didn’t mention the oil). And of course, Panetta was a member of the Iraq Study Group, so he has some in-depth knowledge and context backing up his assessment.
And I second your motion: Congress?? Hello, Congress…? You’re wanted on the American airwaves, to tell the American people the truth about the inhumane, savage and unconscionable American colony of Iraq that Thomas Jefferson (among other wise and patriotic Americans) did his damnedest to ensure would never come to pass.
Referring to Jane Hamsher. Sorry.
BigMitch @ 156
I’m willing to bet there are a few (hundreds?) sources which confirm this.
Ed*ard Teller @ 162
Cool.
ante up on that bet, Mitch!
http://www.uruknet.info/pic.ph…..ghraib.jpg
I think they don’t want us to play whack-a-troll here.
DrFrankLives @ 166
This is Jane Hamsher’s blog. She can say whatever the hell she wants to.
Fern @ 142
Seymour Hersh has written about Israeli soldiers in the Kurdish region.
Here is a BBC report about an Israeli soldiers in northern Iraq
http://www.informationclearing…..e15033.htm
Here is an article about an “alleged” Israeli soldier at Abu Gharib
http://www.commondreams.org/he…..704-03.htm
DrFrankLives @ 157
I admire Elizabeth Edwards. I think she would be a great First Lady, hell, she’d be a great President. But she was flat wrong to attack the MoveOn ad. You do not use GOP talking points to slam a progressive group. Never. Ever. Especially when the “Betray-us” take originated with the troops serving under him when he extended their tour from 12 months to 15.
It’s so weird. Folks resent being occupied. Imagine.
burnspbesq @ 163
new around here
Mistaking the various contributors for one another is a common mistake from new folks who are not careful readers.
siun jane christy trex pach …
Having read the Liz post in question I would assume DrFrank is both new and not a particularly careful reader.
Israeli’s involved in Iraq (teh google is a wonderful thing – at least if you actually want to learn)
Guardian
Guardian – Israel trains Assasination Squads
MSNBC – US uses Israeli tactics
BBC: Israelis Train Kurdish Forces:
The BBC has obtained evidence that Israelis have been giving military training to Kurds in northern Iraq.
There’s lots more….
In defense of Dr. Frank one of the easiest ways to get elected in our country is to make up stuff and lie, ask the current president how that worked out for him. I think that the troops need to be pulled back in order for a political solution to occur but to do more at this point is difficult. Personally I’m more afraid of the Saudis than I am of Iran.
burnspbesq @ 163
Obviously, he knows little of the respect that Jane has for Ms. Edwards.
Siun @ 175
Dear god. That ought to help fan the flames in the ME. Are all these people crazy – well…..
Aaargh….!!!!
Dr Frank Lives – if you would like to participate in the discussion, feel free but if you just want to troll, stop now. And trollish behavior does not reflect well on the candidate you apparently support.
Siun, Do you have any links where the Israelis were involved in the torture that occurred in prisons besides commondreams?
CTuttle @ 178
FTFY
RonD @ 11
The “cakewalk” zealots are hoping that the Iranian/US question is checkmate.
RevDeb @ 170
I think Jane was 100 percent on that Liz Edwards piece. I liked it and Jane is right. I’m damn proud of Jane for doing that. FWIW, of the big three, I prefer Edwards, but what’s right is right. Don’t help the rethugs make a sidebar into the real issue. It’s BS.
the iraqui ‘reservation.’
the thought just occurred to me when Siun mentioned the vast number of imprisoned men.
I’m sure somebody has written about it in depth and far more thoughtfully.
the invasion. the takeover. the reallocation of liberties, land, etc..
we will leave when the oil is gone.
betcha.
Siun @ 176
Was this comment intended for me?
madmommy @ 183
*g*
Siun @ 174
I have heard good things about this Googles thing, too. Thought I might give it a try.
We were discussing Israelis at Abu Gharaib. Found a CNN site with this quote:
Although Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski told the BBC in an interview that no Israelis were working at Abu Ghraib, …
Well, what would she know? She didn’t even get a Medal of Freedom.
DrFrankLives @ 161
Hmmm … are you new around here?
May I take you aside and explain a couple of things?
The folks who hang out here have evolved a couple of rules that we try to live by. We find that they enable us to have a generally civil discourse around here, despite the fact that all of us have deeply and passionately held views, and sometimes disagree quite vehemently about things.
We don’t talk to each other like that. If you must attack, attack positions, not people.
We especially don’t talk about Jane like that. She’s given us this wonderful place to hang out and exchange ideas. She is smart, funny, passionate, beautiful, and has cool dogs. We do not bite the hand that feeds us.
OK?
Kathleen @ 182
What I just can’t figure is why a group of people who have been dead, flat wrong, every time, on everything, continue to put forth more insanity and the MSM just laps it up without question. **boggles**
Oklahoma kiddo @ 173
Never understood that, myself…
Actually not Fern but I find it helpful to look up things myself rather than simply relying on anyone’s interpretation.
madmommy @ 181
ooooooh, we wouldn’t want this to turn into a sports blog.
http://www.democracynow.org/ar…../22/148253
Tuesday, June 22nd, 2004
Seymour Hersh: Israeli Agents Operating in Iraq, Iran and Syria
BigMitch @ 194
Who said anything about sports…?!!! ;-)
the world of google:
Israel seeks pipeline for Iraqi oil
US discusses plan to pump fuel to its regional ally and solve energy headache at a stroke
Ed Vuillamy in Washington
Sunday April 20, 2003
The Observer
Plans to build a pipeline to siphon oil from newly conquered Iraq to Israel are being discussed between Washington, Tel Aviv and potential future government figures in Baghdad.
The plan envisages the reconstruction of an old pipeline, inactive since the end of the British mandate in Palestine in 1948, when the flow from Iraq’s northern oilfields to Palestine was re-directed to Syria.
Now, its resurrection would transform economic power in the region, bringing revenue to the new US-dominated Iraq, cutting out Syria and solving Israel’s energy crisis at a stroke.
Fun facts to know and tell. In ‘92 a soldier in Tennessee tripped, discharging his weapon, shooting Petraeus in the chest. The surgeon who removed the bullet, was the ever cuddly kitty butcher, Bill Frist.
Weird, huh.
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 195
Imagine! I am just shocked.
Siun, Yes, one brief story from the march. At the Capitol I chatted with a pleasant woman in a sun hat who agreed with me that 9-11 must be reinvestigated. She told me she was there for her husband who came from Viet Nam a different man than when he left. He couldn’t shake his demons and they separated. She gave me a poem she had written and I started to tear up.
I will demonstrate again, and it will be for the lady on the bench and the husband she “lost”.
We can make a difference people. We must.
madmommy @ 171
So that’s where it originated! We were discussing this today at Americablog and going round and round with someone about dissing someone’s family name.
And how did you happen upon this tidbit?
More funding for the war seems to be on track, the most I believe may happen is that a lot of the troops may get pulled off the streets and be confined to their bases.
Everyone talks extensively about coming to a politcal settlement in Iraq, but I doubt that few may mean it….less security and more confusion makes for an easy escape for Mr.oil.
Kathleen @ 193
Actually we have Israeli agents here in the USA. If Israieli agents were part of Abu Gharaib I think that is important news.
Oilfieldguy @ 196
No kidding? Bizarre.
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 195
Sounds like win-win-win.
CTuttle @ 196
Someone is trying to turn us sports fans into second-class citizens, and quarantine us away from the Serious People.
“Now we see the violence inherent in the system.
“HELP! I’m being re-PRESSED!”
[P.S. to LooHoo: you do know I’m kidding, right?]
More Seymour Hersh
http://www.newyorker.com/archi…..628fa_fact
Plan B
As June 30th approaches, Israel looks to the Kurds.
by Seymour M. Hersh June 28, 2004
In July, 2003, two months after President Bush declared victory in Iraq, the war, far from winding down, reached a critical point. Israel, which had been among the war’s most enthusiastic supporters, began warning the Administration that the American-led occupation would face a heightened insurgency—a campaign of bombings and assassinations—later that summer. Israeli intelligence assets in Iraq were reporting that the insurgents had the support of Iranian intelligence operatives and other foreign fighters, who were crossing the unprotected border between Iran and Iraq at will. The Israelis urged the United States to seal the nine-hundred-mile-long border, at whatever cost
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 118
ok, how about some evidence to support this inflammatory assertion, agreed to be a “safe bet”?
Notwithstanding the self-righteous badgering of Big MItch’s viewpoint that has gone on here all day, it seems folks are much more willing to settle for unsubstantiated accusations when Israel is the target.
Our [Democratic] Congress in action:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…..21536/1025
Siun @ 193
On the other hand, if someone has information at her fingertips, I am going to ask for it before I go tearing around the web – especially if it is support for an assertion made in a comment.
They don’t answer “How many…for how long?” because they don’t know.
The decision to pull the trigger was SO fucked and SO otic, and the results of it are going to be so unfathomably shitty that anyone with a modicum of intelligence knows that NO plan is going to “work”.
All the bets are off, at this point, and it’s a question of:
“Is continuing to sacrifice hundreds of our troops, and billions of our dollars, just to string this misery out (and INCIDENTALLY, give the assholes who created it time to get the fuck out of Dodge) worse than ending our direct part in it? Which “ending” will allow all of the fallout from this loon-crusade to unspinnably kick in….”
From the viewpoint of the corpo-fascists and testosterone-addled petro pirates who’ve taken over the ship of state, the specter of Iraq disintegrating into various faction-fifes, with the high probability of long-term sectarian strife turning oil “futures” into a back-alley crapshoot, has to be shit-their-pants scary.
On top of that, factor in Iran’s enhanced power, and it aint hard to see why these Machiavelli shitbirds will do practically anything to try to sustain this mayhem opera.
The lake my family lives next to will ice up soon. Let’s all snuggle up together while Siun is here, and break ice together, to help solve problems, and concentrate on that.
Did Fox just censor Sally Field talking about the mothers waiting for their sons and daughters to come home from war and harm’s way?
She was accepting her award for Brothers and Sisters and all of a sudden the audio cut out for a few seconds.
Fox…the Pravda Network. Silencing America’s voices.
Wordsmith @ 199
Oh boy, now you’re gonna tax the mommy brain. I know I read it either here or at C&L or maybe Kos, since they are my main points for news and comment. Can anyone help me oout here with an actual link? pretty please????
Siun @ 191
Agreed that’s why I try to back up what ever conclusions I have come to with the reading that I have done.
Woops. That happened in ‘91. I knew I shoulda checked that date. My memory ain’t what it used to be. More stuff in muh haid after all.
Very strange . . . on the Emmys Sally Field just tried to make a statement, ‘If the mothers ruled the world . . . .” and then it went silent. Could it be that Fox which is hosting is censoring political speech? No, not Faux. No one could have anticipated.
Mitch: You are ignoring the second part of Karpinski’s statement which was that she met an Israeli doing interrogations at a secret facility in Iraq.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/…..rael.iraq/
I used to be a sports editor. The “real” reporters called us the toy section.
Wordsmith @ 201
That’s ancient knowledge in these here parts…!!! One of the Main Posters referred to it, 2-3 weeks ago…
Kathleen @ 205
We should have listened to them.
Ed*ard Teller @ 211
That is where you live? Cool!
Ed*ard Teller @ 209
Wow, and I was doing the happy dance because the thermometer dipped below 70 for the first time in months!
Oilfieldguy @ 196
I read that the other day, and thought “Did Frist do the surgery by video?”
Siun, the questions I want to ask Gore are:
Why couldn’t you carry your own home state?
AND:
How the fuck could you pick Joe Lieberman for your running mate?
(Also: Have you grown any
fire in your belly, or are you going to do a “John Kerry” and bend over and spread your cheeks for the republicans and the conservatives…again?)
burnspbesq @ 206
Oilfieldguy @ 216
Now, that’s cute.
bluejeansntshirt @ 198
Now that’s a wonderful account – Thank you for sharing it. I find demonstrations are important at least as a way to stand up and say no to the powers that be. They may not “work” but they work to energize and recommit us to the task ahead – and they remind us of what democracy looks like!
BigMitch @ 218
And not have listened to them and the neo, theo, oil cons before the illegal invasion.
Fern @ 210
I used to do that more until one of the commenters got on my case for never looking anything up myself.
Prairie Sunshine @ 212
Glad I wasn’t the only one who noticed. Wonder if anyone will mention it in the newspaper coverage tomorrow. On second thought, nah. Won’t happen.
Ed*ard Teller @ 223
Don’t you wonder if he used the kitten scissors and the kitten anesthesia?
Siun @ 215
Yes, but not neccessarily for Americans, and not alleged to have the abuses inherent in Abu Gharaib.
Listen, friends, and Red Sox fans. Israel is in the mid-East. It makes sense that they have agents in all mid-Eastern countries. That they would be training Kurds, should come as a shock to no-one. And it sounds to me like a good thing. We want the Kurds to be able to defend themselves, and our NATO allies, Turkey, are on the wrong side of this issue. Sounds like the Israelis are doing the right thing at the right time. I am sure you will join me in thanking them in your prayers.
SnarKassandra @ 219
Come on up with Texas Betsy when you can. That’s my son in the picture. He has a lot of friends who could show you how great, spectacular and funny Alaska is.
Ed*ard Teller @ 221
Post op, Petro’s eyes followed the balloon and they knew he would be ok. Removing organs from kittens proved worthy practice for the enterprising Frist.
Ed*ard Teller @ 232
It’s so cold up there!
RevDeb @ 214
Delurk By Al Da Spook:
All “live” shows have a five to fifteen second tape delay for “janet jackson moments” and the odd “fuck”. this can allow for the kind of censorship you are referring to. All broadcast networks do it but not cable, which is why bobovich novakula got canned on cnn for his little on air tantrum.
am working on ravings post due to pipeline posting here. NOW we know why hunt dived into kurdistan…and AHMED CHALABI rises to the surface yet again like an unflushed turd. (I don’t like the man, can you tell?)
oddmommy @ 206
‘thinking’ israel and the u.s.a. discussed strategically how to proceed in iraq once the decision to invade was set in stone in inflamatory?
I’d think it’s just common sense that allies would plan such things.
especially in light of Israel wanting a share of Iraq’s oil.
There is plenty of substantiated proof of Israeli involvement in Iraq right on this thread.
if criticism of Israel seems like ’self righteous badgering’ of another poster I’d just like to say there are far bigger issues at play here; such as the insane butchery of iraq and the coming (potential) butchery of iran.
RevDeb @ 227
Field said something like, “If mothers ruled the world, there’d be no g——-d wars” — which I’m editing so that this comment doesn’t go into moderation. Blame the FCC, not Fox, on this one.
And it’s Mukasey who likely will bring back some SDNY people, if he can get them.
Bloody sports fan *g*
althespook @ 235
Yes, I am aware of the tape delay to avoid swearing or wardrobe malfunctions on live teevee—but I haven’t seen political speech censored before.
James Spader beats out Gandolfini?
I don’t think so.
Who’s counting the ballots? Rove?
BigMitch @ 231
Thanks Mitch but if they were at Abu Gharaib I think that would be different. Go Sox
hehe.. fox/opinion dynamics has shrub’s JAR back up to 37%… are people brain dead or has faux news finally figured out how to subvert their polling contractor?
SnarKassandra @ 232
The thing I miss the most is actual seasons. I do not miss trying to figure out which snow-covered lump is my car. I drove a Subaru Justy-white. Bad choice, but when I bought it I lived in Cali and moved to Telluride a year later. The kiddos have never seen real snow, though it did snow here Christmas when the big kid was 3. A dusting of course, but he still talks about it with amazement.
I find it Kafkaesque that the arguments we made before the invasion as to why it was a bad idea are now being endorsed as why we can’t leave by the very people who ridiculed our arguments.
Gordian knot?
DrFrankLives @ 164
Far as I can tell, Jane admires Elizabeth and vice versa. I agree with Jane that Elizabeth should not have dissed the MoveOn Betrayus ad. The American soldiers are the clever ones who came up with the moniker. And Betrayus is behaving as a whore for W.
althespook @ 233
Evening Al!!
Siun @ 227
todays Australian newspaper(morloch owned)states
‘about 4000 to 6000 protesters gathered outside the whitehouse’.
is that right?
Blub @ 242
Bounced a dead cat off Condi’s ass.
Prairie Sunshine @ 240
I don’t have HBO but I like Spader.
Oilfieldguy @ 243
Mobius strip.
Prairie Sunshine @ 240
No kidding!
Don’t you wonder if he used the kitten scissors and the kitten anesthesia?
pish posh. Kittens don’t need anesthesia, just tape to hold their little paws down.
Bill Frist.
Mitch – I will locate the links but I can’t get everything right now. Meanwhile, your assertion that it’s a good thing ™ that Israel is training the Kurds is simply wrong. Israel’s track record for human rights abuses is horrific … and given that the Kurds are not so hot on that score themselves, it’s not such a great combination.
What we’re seeing – and the links above point to this – is that the US has adopted the worst of the Israeli abuses as SOP for Iraq.
And now reap the harvest.
JPL @ 240
Yes, that would be different. But if Janet Karpenski says they weren’t there, (1) She would know, and (2) She is not going to lie for Bush.
Mabel’s Wig Shack:
‘thinking’ israel and the u.s.a. discussed strategically how to proceed in iraq once the decision to invade was set in stone in inflamatory?
I’d think it’s just common sense that allies would plan such things.
especially in light of Israel wanting a share of Iraq’s oil.
There is plenty of substantiated proof of Israeli involvement in Iraq right on this thread.
if criticism of Israel seems like ’self righteous badgering’ of another poster I’d just like to say there are far bigger issues at play here; such as the insane butchery of iraq and the coming (potential) butchery of iran. T
This is hard hitting commentary. I agree with your position. Nailed it.
I will never forget General Antonio Taguba’s testimony with the Senate in regard to Abu Gharib and “third country nationals”
SENATOR AKAKA: “General Taguba, in your report you reference the lack of supervision over U.S. civilian contractor personnel, third country nationals and local contractors within the detention facility at Abu Ghraib. During your investigation, did you determine how many civilian contract personnel were working there? Who supervised these individuals? And can you describe what you observed in terms of type of access these individuals had to the detainee areas?”
GEN. TAGUBA: “Sir, we did not make a determination of how many civilian contractors were assigned to the 205th MI Brigade and operating at Abu Ghraib. I personally interviewed a translator and I also personally interviewed an interrogator, both civilians, contractors. There was also a statement, and substantiated by the witnesses that we interviewed, of another translator, a third-country national in fact, that was involved. And there was another third- country national who was acting as a translator for the interrogators that was involved in one of the interrogation incidents where dogs were used. Their supervision, sir, from the best that we could determine or discern from the information that we gathered, was they were under the supervision of the Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center, the JIDC, who is then under the supervision of one, a lieutenant colonel, who was also supervised by the brigade commander, the MI brigade commander. That was the chain, sir.”
Third country nationals, eh? So what third country are we talking about? Britain? Canada, perhaps? I guess we can probably rule out Monaco.
The only translator identified in the Taguba report is John Israel, supposedly a “contract translator” employed by the Titan Corp. Mr. Israel is furthermore described as not having a security clearance, an unusual condition for someone in his position – unless, of course, he’s not an American, in which case it would be perfectly understandable.
Justin Raimando writes about this
http://www.etherzone.com/2004/raim051204.shtml
Oklahoma kiddo @ 172
OKK, you state the obvious beautifully! Hi to Lahoma.
todays Australian newspaper(morloch owned)states
‘about 4000 to 6000 protesters gathered outside the whitehouse’.
***************
although many people claim that 100,000 citizens marched in a procession spanning hours it’s probably a safe bet to say there were only ‘two or three hundred antiwar’ protestors in washington yesterday.
*cough*
Hate the Iraqi Arabs do ya, BigMitch @ 203? Figure they need to be “dominated” by the U.S. for their own good, in order [for the Iraqi Kurds] to “win”?
You and Dick Cheney and George Bush, and their corporate raider pals, appear to be of a mind. But next time, please do us all a favor and carry out your illegal and uncivilized privatizing piracy on your own dime and with your own army. Appreciate it.
BigMitch @ 187
Karpinski wasn’t even allowed into the blocks where the “fun” stuff was going on. Instead, she was blamed for the whole thing. Try again.
Israel supported the apartheid government of South Africa when much of the world was condeming institutionalized racism.
At least that’s what I recall.
Which is pretty strange considering the history of many Israeli families…
snarkassie,
Madmommy’s right. It is only cold half the year here. The rest of the time it can be warm. Every few years it can get hot. That seems to be happening more and more – the hot part. But if you want to see Alaska before the ruin goes to the next level, better get up here soon, kassie and pups.
may at 245
Many more than reported. I don’t know how to estimate crowd size but I’d just call it massive.
Kathleen, a quick thank you for all of the links you have provided. I am following them and have learned a lot. Much of this is new for me and confusing.
Gore’s Emmy.
If folks have not seen the CNN special on Afghanistan, it is on again now and it is worth a viewing.
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 236
that’s not what you said above. You said the US and Israel “carefully planned” something — not quite clear what — in advance, not that the equally amorphous “how to proceed” was discussed with Israel “once the decision was made to invade.”
At first it sounded like you were saying Israel “carefully planned” the arrests of Iraqis and possibly the atrocities at Abu Graib. I didn’t see anything cited to support either of those propositions.
I don’t like vague accusations supported by irrelevant citations. You are talking about some of the most historically and politically complex situations on this planet.
RevDeb @ 265
One more thing actor Fred Thompson doesn’t have….
seems a taste for masochism in poltical junkies is not limited to goopers.
pow wow @ 258
Excuse me but I thought that an independent Iraq, determining their own fate, would be a good thing. They are going to want to sell their oil. Israel wants to buy it. What is wrong with that?
I suppose you would rather starve Israel to death. Sorry, I can’t join you on that.
The old Iraq has been destroyed. I opposed the war before it started. I think Bush, and Cheney should be impeached, and thrown into jail. The war and the occupation is illegal, uncivilized, ill-conceived, and poorly prosecuted. But we are where we are, and we have to get to peace. A necessary step towards where we want to be is for Iraqis to be getting oil revenues. Do you really have a problem with that? ‘Cause if you do, you are the imperialist, not I.
BigMitch @ 229
So based on your conclusion and if I follow it ,it is acceptable for foreign governments to be in other countries training soldiers. It would be o.k. in your book for Saudi Arabia to be training people here in the states.
Just thinking today about something probably already mentioned, but Siun’s post earlier about Isreal bombing runs in Syria got me wondering. Increasingly, I think the saber rattling of the US and Isreal with Syria and Iran is not about WMD, but about Kurdistan and its oil.
It sure looks like maneuvering to buttress the Kurds in light of their populations in Syria, Iran, and of course Turkey.
kirk murphy @ 269
word
Heros of Sept. 15.
These guys took one for the team and were arrested during the die-in in front of the Capitol.
Oddmommy – follow the links I provided above, and Google Israel training Iraq or Israel Iraq …
then see what you think.
This is not an unreported fact – and the reports are from reputable sources.
We have looked to Israel for “guidance” on how to run an occupation – it has clearly worked so well for them.
I’d also recommend a reading of Robert Fisk’s Pity the Nation for a full description of Israeli tactics – they will be very familiar to anyone who watches US actions in Iraq carefully.
Teddy is upstairs
pow wow @ 259
People can disagree but I think statements such as this serve no purpose. Big Mitch was being sarcastic which probably is uncalled for also but to bring up bush and cheney and the crew reminds me of my republican brothers retorts.
kirk murphy @ 269
well, there was the peculiar case of the last president…
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 118
I stand by this.
I’m quite sure that after the decision to ‘take out saddam’ was made that israel had a big voice in what happened next regarding the colonizing and oppression of Iraq and theft of their natural resources.
do I have proof? only the proof of what has happened since; that Israel wants iraqui oil and is involved militarily in iraq (refer to links on this thread posted by others).
kirk murphy @ 270
goes with the territory
humor
bouncing like a nut off condis’ backside is the antidote.
(i am NOT jealous.my backside could bounce nuts too.and no,i’m not going to show anyone.)
bluejeansntshirt @ 274
bluejeans, thanks for the youtube — good stuff!
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 259
Great site in regard to the I/P issue
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
Conference coming up
http://www.fosna.org/BostonConferenceOct2007.htm
“The Apartheid Paradigm in Palestine-Israel:
Issues of Justice and Equality”
October 26 – 27, 2007
Old South Church, 645 Boylston St., Boston
Friday—2:30 PM—10:00 PM
Saturday—8:00 AM—4:30 PM
Keynote Address: Archbishop Desmond Tutu
Panelists:
Naim Ateek * Anat Biletzki * Diana Buttu * Noam Chomsky
John Dugard * Farid Esack * Noura Erekat * Jeff Halper
Donald Wagner * David Wildman
Blub @ 278
what’s the text msg for ROFL/707/ding?
GordonM @ 258
do you have that link cannot find it
[P.S. to LooHoo: you do know I’m kidding, right?]
Course I do, Burns. And I have a dad and two brothers who come over for a family event and immediately turn on the tv to watch one sporting event or another. Here I’ve spent hours preparing-say-potato salad, baked beans, and burgers, and they freaking watch the games! Conversation between innings. I do not get it, but love those guys big time. My daughter is watching either a Charger or Padre game right now, and I hear cheers and boos coming from her bedroom.
May @ 246
Even the Post said that 10,000 were present. Although, from that article, you’d have thought as many pro-war, counter-demonstrators were there.
Having been there, I’d say at least 10,000. I didn’t see any counter-demons, but I didn’t go near the Mall.
Ed*ard Teller @ 283
sorry.. couldn’t resist
JPL – Mitch’s only sarcasm was in expecting us all to pray for them. He is quite a fan of Israeli interventionism – and also a fan of the heat he gets as a result.
Siun @ 288
does this mean (and I’m asking not ’snarking’) that Mitch’s position on the war in Iraq is essentially Republican?
can we tie any of this back to the difficulty the 3 leading (D)’s have in simply saying they will or won’t pull American troops out?
do they expect to have their cake and eat it too?
anyone advocating some half-baked faux withdrawal plan is beyond the pale, unsupportable. It was a disasterous criminal invasion based on lies, and American soldiers don’t have any business killing and dying there. Plus, the situation is broken beyond repair.
Unlike the (R)’s the (D) candidates are probably smart enough to know this at some level.
Maybe there is some influential Lobby, adept with both carrots and sticks, that has decreed to American Presidential candidates what is and is not acceptable rhetoric?
and if an American Presidential candidate feels they can’t stand up to this, they don’t deserve support of anyone who sees what a disaster neo-con policymaking is.
the ‘Big Tent’ isn’t big enough to include a genuine anti-war Left and apologists for state terror in the Middle East.
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 279
ok, so you are saying you don’t NEED proof to make these sweeping accusations against a nation, other than your understanding of what it “wants” and your inferences from what it did after the fact (assuming even that has been proved).
Jeez, sounds sort of like the proof the bushies had for WMD in Iraq.
pow wow @ 207
There are plenty of respectable establishment voices saying things that are labled ‘lefty-blog’ or hippie-sh*t ‘anti-war’ extremist stuff in media and the corrupt, goofball, political establishment.
Below is Larry Diamong from the Hoover Institution, who has studied the political dynamics of emerging democracies. He says if US wants a good outcome then: no permanent bases, no permanent garrison, no US-crony capitalism in the oil law, US quits trying to control things and hands it over to international and multilateral efforts.
And below also is Col Pat Lang -no liberal at all that I can see- calling out the neocons on the new attempt to smear the IAEA.
Why are the Democrats afraid to go there? Why the self-censorship, or passivity, on part of establishment Dems? Cowardice? Complicity?
Answer is getting as many new progressive faces in next Congress as possible. Things are getting spooky wrt to non-movement to stop the madness among the political elite.
Larry Diamong-Hoover institution
http://www.stanford.edu/~ldiamond/iraq.html
A New Campaign Against the IAEA
http://turcopolier.typepad.com…..aign-.html
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 289
More Republicans than you can imagine were against the invasion.
Siun, if you’re still here, I thank you for all of the obvious work and care you put into your writings, I appreciate all of the time and energy you put into the live threads, and I always look forward to seeing you here. Thanks again.
oddmommy @ 291
actually no. it doesn’t. but i dont think you’re trying to hear what I have said.
Pro Israel (based on the 67 border) Pro-Palestine (with a shared Jerusalem)
Spokovat – until they answer the question, how can we know what Clinton, Obama and Edwards plan. They have been asked – by Richardson at the debates, their staffs have received numerous requests for answers from Chris Bowers, Ian Welsh, myself and others … no response. nada. nothing. But we are supposed to believe the “end the war” spin but ignore the residual troops …
RonD @ 294
Doubles on that, Siun. Thanks also for your passion/compassion…you good person.
RonD – thank you and thanks for your participation! I really appreciate your comments.
RonD @ 295
ditto. And to all of the people who link to these stories (Kathleen) It is so helpful. Thanks!
Loo Hoo – Glad you are here as well. I really enjoy the discussions we have here Sunday nights and appreciate the engaged conversation.
At the risk of ‘piling on:’ Siun I too appreciate your essays/columns/threads——
blush – thanks all! It’s enjoyable to pull these posts together when we have such a good gang of people to discuss them.
Now everyone – go upstairs and wish Teddy a Happy Birthday!
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 295
Plenty of proof that Israel via the I-lobby had plenty of influence (by no means the only) on the decision to invade Iraq.
The New Pentagon Papers
By Karen Kwiatkowski
Salon
Wednesday 10 March 2004
A high-ranking military officer reveals how Defense Department extremists suppressed information and twisted the truth to drive the country to war.
http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view
.cgi/7/3853
The Men from JINSA
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20020902/vest
http://www.counterpunch.org/ch…..62004.html
Labor Day
September 6, 2004
Dual Loyalties
The Bush Neocons and Israel
By KATHLEEN and BILL CHRISTISON
Former CIA political analysts
D
wesgpc @ 292
Great links thanks. There really seems to be a military “coup” going on
Flynt Leverett who is a middle east expert who quit the Bush administration because he disagreed with their foreign policy. He is at the New America foundation. I try to read everything he has to say about the middle east
http://www.newamerica.net/publications/2007
http://www.newamerica.net/pres…..n_and_iraq
Kathleen @ 304
sounds about right!!!
BigMitch @ 270:
This is what you flippantly called a “win-win-win” @ 203, BigMitch, to which I was responding, as I made clear:
Is that (very out-dated article) discussing a state of affairs that you would describe as an “independent Iraq, determing their own fate”? Who’s “they” when you refer to Iraq? As I have noted above @ 115, there is an obvious and growing chasm between the Iraqi Arab & Kurdish people and their so-called government in the Green Zone. By choosing to overlook that vital fact, you join those in Washington who’d prefer to “win” (the black gold prize) without addressing justice in Iraq for those to whom that nation actually belongs by right and by international law. My comment didn’t have a blessed thing to do with Israel – any more than it had to do with any other nation on earth that will be purchasing oil in the future from those who are selling it (if ever given the chance as a free people and as an independent nation).
I responded to the concept that you seemingly endorsed with your comment @ 203. If you were too brief by not condemning an (obviously-implied) U.S.-established and dominated client state in Iraq as outlined in the article, I’m glad you clarified.
[JPL @ 277 - I must have missed the sarcasm - and I didn’t want that comment, if serious, to go unchallenged. That article’s subject and focus, as excerpted, pretty well encapsulates the Bush/Cheney approach to the world. So others apparently focused on the same end, never mind the means to that end, line right up with Bush and Cheney as far as I’m concerned, and if we join the Democrats in Washington in being cowed into silence when confronted by them, they’ll just keep on keeping on.]
305 Kathleen says: September 16th, 2007 at 8:38 pm
re Flynt Leverett:
thanks for links.
Siun- Thanks from me too.
I’ve been reading the thread, but not commenting this eve. But, your posts are informative and thought-provoking.
I guess I’m old-fashioned too. I agree that it is very rude to start making OT comments near the beginning of comments on a thread. And disrespectful. And, especially on a serious post.
And, comments that are not only off-topic, but totally totally off topic. Course, it is a good way to learn where particular commenters’ priorities lie.
siun…
no answer is the sound of triangulation for me.
I remember prior to the MCA being enacted the (D)’s were all wobbly and noncommital, and I was all worked up about how terrible it was from reading FDL and other sites, I repeatedly called and wrote to Senator Obama, and his staff all said that ‘the Senator has no position yet’, or hasn’t read it, or some such bullshit.
Good luck trying to make them go on the record on tough subjects. They are waiting for their pollsters or consultants to decide what is safe to say on all of the dire crises we face, and that’s not leadership.
Also thanks to Siun, whom I owe a waffle breakfast, Bush still above 25%.
oooh waffles! I had forgotten!
and Sporkovat – I have never found Sen Obama’s office here in Chicago very responsive – the same goes for the DC office. Constituent services seems not to be a strong suit (a bit shocking in the city that made “constituent services” – so to speak- the currency of party loyalty). And before he decided or at least announced his run, he was amazingly unwilling to take stands at a big public meeting … he just repeated “freshman senator, in minority” in the way the Ds now repeat “no veto proof majority.” It was no impressive when he had a packed auditorium just ready for some good progressive talk from their adored new Senator.
I’d love to see him live up to his community organizer, opponent of the war slogans – that would be a great campaign to back. Sadly, we aren’t getting that Obama it seems.
Seems to me I heard Senator Dodd say he wants all troops out, and he has a plan to get them out in 6 months from the time the plan goes into effect. I remember him talking with KO about it (perhaps just before Duh-bya’s last speech…)
the vid is here
People power! Excellent I like that. Seems like some of our finest orators our not in Congress or running for election and that’s too bad.
OK, that link didn’t work, try this