A little over a week ago, I was startled by a headline on NewsNow* mentioning an Israeli air strike on Syria. No one seems to really know what happened. On September 6, Israel launched as many as 8 fighter jets and flew across Syria – possibly bombing … well, something. There are rumours and hints: Syria claims Israel violated their airspace and Syrian air forces drove them off, an early report from US sources claimed that Israel had bombed a Syrian shipment of weapons to Hezbollah and Israeli reports gave nothing away but said that air force officers were looking pleased with themselves. All in all, it is quite a mystery.
Now the Washington Post and the New York Times are running with the story but once again, their reporting appears more driven by White House leaks and spin than reality. This latest version of the story claims that there are North Koreans in Syria and they are helping the Syrians to build nuclear weapons capacity.
We do know that some of the most dangerous White House cadre are making statements which increase the fear factor:
At the end of August, John Bolton wrote a hawkish OpEd in the Wall Street Journal about the current negotiations with North Korea – ending with:
Finally, we need to learn the details of North Korean nuclear cooperation with other countries. We know that both Iran and Syria have long cooperated with North Korea on ballistic missile programs, and the prospect of cooperation on nuclear matters is not far-fetched. Whether and to what extent Iran, Syria or others might be “safe havens” for North Korea’s nuclear weapons development, or may have already participated with or benefited from it, must be made clear.
Then we have this report in the Jerusalem Post last week about a Washington Post report of a possible North Korean – Syrian nuclear cooperation:
The report was based on new intelligence the United States has gathered over the past six months, the bulk allegedly from Israel, which includes dramatic satellite imagery that has led some US officials to believe the facility could be used to produce material for nuclear weapons.
The new information, particularly images received in the past 30 days, has been restricted to just a few senior officials under the instructions of national security adviser Stephen J. Hadley, leaving many in the intelligence community unaware of it or uncertain of its significance, sources told the Washington Post on condition of anonymity.
And we have Condi Rice telling Fox when asked about Syria possibly building nuclear capacity:
It is our duty to take a stance on countries, and prevent the most dangerous people in the world from acquiring the most dangerous weapons in the world, and that is what we are doing everyday,” Rice said during an interview on FOX News.
When Bolton, Hadley and Rice are all involved … well, I start to worry.
Perhaps the best analysis of this mystery can be found in the quote from Joseph Cirincione, senior fellow and director for nuclear policy at the Center for American Progress, quoted on the Foreign Policy Passport blog:
The real story is how quickly the New York Times and the Washington Post snapped up the bait and ran exactly the story the officials wanted, thereby feeding a mini-media frenzy. It appears that nothing, not even a disastrous and unnecessary war, can break this Pavlovian response to an “intelligence scoop.”
But most chilling may be Christiane Amanpour’s CNN report:
Senior CNN correspondent Christiane Amanpour, citing Middle Eastern and Washington sources, said aircraft and possibly even ground forces, who may have directed the planes to their target, took part in the operation.
The attack left “a big hole in the desert,” the report said. CNN quoted U.S. government and military sources as saying they were “happy to have Israel convey to both Syria and Iran the message that they can get in and out and strike when necessary.”
Whatever happened on September 6th, I suspect we’re going to be hearing more about a “nuclear” Syria to go along with the warmongering towards Iran. Somehow Randy Newman seems like the most apt soundtrack these days.
Update: ” Israel boasted on Sunday it has recovered its “deterrent capability” after an air strike in Syria triggered warnings of retaliation and intense media speculation over the aim of the operation.”
*NewsNow is a great resource – h/t to markfromireland for first introducing me to it.
Related posts:
- How Can We Negotiate in Good Faith with the Iranians When We Play Dumb About Israel’s Nukes?
- Israel Gearing Up For Iran?
- John Kyl and Richard Perle: Nuclear Weapons Keep the World Safe, Except When People We Don’t Like Have Them
- Biden on Iran: ‘Some Real Doubt’ About The Electoral Outcome
- Thomas Fingar on the Politics of NIE/NIAs





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Good post.
Hi Siun!
I’m had trouble believing the N.Korean story last week. This administration has flip-flopped back and forth between claiming Syrian is the enemy, then Iran.
Thank you for this, Siun.
Happy Sunday Suin!
Hi Siun!
This morning on Fox News Sunday,
Robert Gates would not deny that Israel made some kind of air strike in Syria. Rough quote: “We don’t comment on other countries military actions”
Good morning all – the story is really odd given the hyper silence from Israel – which is noted each day in the Israeli press.
We are (if we haven’t already arrived) coming to the point of no return. All that’s missing is the triumphal return of Bibi. And that event is coming soon. The return of the Israeli war Messiah.
I said this earlier to OKK
I don’t understand why Syria would nuke Israel onaccaouta there’s that radiation thing, and, well, Syria is right next door.
Can’t stay long, but wanted to drop this link in.
Was Israeli Raid a Dry Run for Attack on Iran?
from CommonDreams.org by CommonDreams
The head of Israel’s airforce, Major-General Eliezer Shkedi, was visiting a base in the coastal city of Herziliya last week. For the 50-year-old general, also the head of Israel’s Iran Command, which would fight a war with Tehran if ordered, it was a morale-boosting affair, a meet-and-greet with pilots and navigators who had flown during […]
Elliott @ 9
Which way does the wind blow?
AP – Defense Secretary Robert Gates said Sunday he would recommend a veto of a Senate proposal that would give troops more rest between deployments in Iraq, branding it a dangerous “backdoor way” to draw down forces.
TexBetsy @ 11
dunno, which way?
Elliott @ 13
Haven’t been there in years. No idea.
TexBetsy @ 14
whichever way, it’d be an Ill Wind that blows
Thanks TexBetsy for adding that link … that is certainly one possibility and the US “government and military” comments quoted above sure point in that direction – as, I think, does the shut down of all info from the operation.
The two go hand in hand. Iran and Syria have a mutual defense pact. So if the US is going to hit Iran then Israel will hit Syria.
That is the end game of the neo-con fantasy.
-GSD
This claim of a North Korean-made nuclear weapons facility is ridiculous on its face. North Korea barely—if at all—detonated a single nuclear bomb, and then promptly agreed to dismantle their program.
Since the recorded yield of their explosion was so small, it seems unlikely North Korea is in a position to export their technology and expertise. I don’t think buying something as provocative as a nuclear weapons facility is going to be entered into lightly by any country, and North Korea has about as much credibility as a traveling monorail salesman.
Once again misinformation and propaganda comes from the White House and is uncritically parroted by the useless corporate media.
Hello, all.
Sure is a convenient pattern here: Oh hey, we don’t like this country! Gosh, this country must by trying to get nuclear weapons. That’s Dangerous! *stomp*
Lather, rinse, repeat.
peanutbutter @ 19
Can we just wash those countries out of our hair?
“You don’t need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows”
-Bob Dylan
There is also lots of the usual scare mongering and bad logic applied as usual.
So Syria develops one nuclear bomb and they are going to attack Israel?
Right. Israel has hundreds and the US, Israel’s staunchest ally has thousands.
So Syria will commit suicide by asking for a nuclear response?
It is all war mongering and it will work by the way.
-GSD
TexBetsy @ 20
Dunno about you, but I’ve got a big glop of administration stuck in my hair. How to wash that out? Shampoo doesn’t seem to be enough…
The first thing I did when I read that North Korea was helping Syria was laugh. It may or may not be true, but it’s just the whole “axis of evil” thingy. These people will jump on anything to scare the people.
And Mr. Lieberman has been quiet too.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 8
War & Terrorism= Faith-based initiatives.
All the plans are at the PNAC website. The plan has been to take out Iraq, Iran, Syria from the very beginning.
http://www.newamericancentury.org/ If you have never read the defense strategies at the PNAC it is worth the time.
If you have never read the document written by
Richard Perle and David and Liv Wurmser for Netanyahu http://www.iasps.org/strat1.htm
“A Clean Break;A New Strategy for Securing the Realm” You should!
Securing the Northern Border
Syria challenges Israel on Lebanese soil. An effective approach, and one with which American can sympathize, would be if Israel seized the strategic initiative along its northern borders by engaging Hizballah, Syria, and Iran, as the principal agents of aggression in Lebanon, including by:
* striking Syria’s drug-money and counterfeiting infrastructure in Lebanon, all of which focuses on Razi Qanan.
* paralleling Syria’s behavior by establishing the precedent that Syrian territory is not immune to attacks emanating from Lebanon by Israeli proxy forces.
* striking Syrian military targets in Lebanon, and should that prove insufficient, striking at select targets in Syria proper.
After watching what the US just did in Iraq and what Israel did in Lebanon it is not hard to imagine why another country in the neighborhood would want nuclear weapons. Even though the “cakewalk” zealots are able to verify any of this.
When Israel sits in the shadows of the UN Non-proliferation treaty and continues to refuse to sign onto the NPT yet demands that their neighbors abide by UN resolutions, the hypocrisy is obvious.
Israel started the arms race in the middle east and many US and Israeli defense companies profit massively
I have followed every word Joseph Cirincione has been saying and writing long before the invasion. Thank you Mr. Cirincione for bringing us the truth.
GSD @ 22
As one with some Arabic blood, I have no problem saying this, and I hope no one else does either.
But the Syrian military couldn’t find it’s ass with both hands and a flashlight, and their ability to develop or maintain ANY kind of nuclear arsenal is laughable beyond description.
From the information now in hand, it could have been anything from an attack on an actual Syrian weapons site to literally “a big hole in the desert”.
Even if the latter, the Syrians will still act mysterious about it, and the warhawks will use the mystery as proof of their claims of imminent Syrian threat.
Scott Ritter spoke here in Phoenix last spring and will be here Oct 12th again. He is a Nuclear weapons spec*alists trained by the US military. He explained the process, to produce enough fissile material to create ONE bomb they would need clean uranium ore and 3000 centrifuges.
First Iran does NOT have access to clean uncontaminated ore, they have uranium ore in Iran but it is contaminated with an element that does NOT have a way to be removed. Iran has gone through the multi-step process and put the gas into the centrifuges but because of the contamination, it destroys the centrifuges.
Those who control the sale of clean uranium ore have prevented Iran and Korea from buying it. The ore they have access is not clean and it cannot be processed.
It is all spin and fake news.
~~~ModNote: Edited for content to clear filters.~~~
I wonder if the Israeli’s ever envisioned their nation playing the role of 1930’s Italy to America’s 1930’s Germany shtick.
-GSD
US to give Jordan $78 million to combat terrorism, take in refugees
snip
The money, which will be disbursed by Sept. 30, is in addition to $454 million in economic and military aid already appropriated this fiscal year for Jordan.
TexBetsy @ 11
Mutually Assured Destruction. Did nicely for years. Just get the kids to practice ducking under their desks. Worked for me. What’s the big deal?
Various facts:
North Korea doesn’t have the “bomb”. They had one nuclear test with a plutonium device and that was a fizzle. So they can’t give it to anyone.
Syria doesn’t have a nuclear program. A nuclear program is not the kind of thing you can store in someone’s garage.
If you go the uranium route, you need big complexes to mine uranium ore, to purify it, turn it into a gas. You need technical expertise and big, complex, and tricky to use cascades to concentrate fissile material to the high levels needed for a bomb. Then you need to pop said material into a bomb casing and put it on some kind of a delivery device.
If you go the plutonium route, you need a reactor (big complex) and both the uranium (big complex) and the heavy water (big complex) to produce plutonium. You need to separate this out and then comes a really difficult feat of engineering (the one where the North Koreans failed). You need to machine the plutonium and place the right explosives and timers around to create a controlled implosion. Screw up even a little and you get what the North Koreans got a fizzle.
Whatever the Israelis were shooting at in the Syrian desert wasn’t a nuclear program, at most it was a wish of a ghost of a suggestion of a thought of one. Talk about testosterone poisoning and paranoid fantasies, the Israelis, this Administration, and John Bolton have them bad.
GSD @ 31
Goooooooooaaaaaaaalllllllll!
Joseph Cirincione
http://www.theglobalist.com/StoryId.aspx?StoryId=6
043
http://www.theglobalist.com/St…..oryId=3217
This is a grea article
Iran and Israel’s Nuclear Weapons
By Joseph Cirincione | Friday, March 11, 2005
Despite all the attention given to Iran’s nuclear moves, the other side of that equation — Israel’s nuclear weapons — usually receives scant attention.The Carnegie Endowment’s Joe Cirincione argues that Israel has a great interest in a Middle East free of nuclear weapons. He also argues that President Bush now has an opportunity to cut the Gordian knot.
Global Icons
or quite some time now, Washington officials have been pressuring the International Atomic Energy Agency to find Iran’s nuclear power program in “material breach” of its treaty obligations not to develop nuclear weapons.
No nuclear plan — yet
The tough talk against Tehran has inadvertently put on the table a program that no one in Washington wants to discuss openly — Israel’s nuclear weapons program.
Even if democratic transformations sweep the Middle East, a new Iraq and a new Iran would still want nuclear weapons as long as Israel has them.
In fact, the world does well to remember that most Middle East weapons programs began as a response to Israel’s development of nuclear weapons. That program started in the early 1950s — and had secretly yielded a bomb by 1968.
ISRAEL STARTED THE ARMS RACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST
Oklahoma kiddo @ 12
Oh, please veto a bill to give troops rest periods. Please. And please let us tie vulnerable GOP senators to that odious veto. Go ahead.
Bob “Slow Bleed” Gates reporting for duty.
-GSD
I wonder if it was a MOAB, as the “big hole in the desert” descriptor fits. Especially since Russia tested its Father of All Bombs less than a week later, on September 11th.
Thanks, Siun. Whatever it was, it serves the cause of peace not one bit.
Iran and enrichment
http://www.worldpublicopinion……p;lb=hmpg1
Whatever else this story is, it’s entertaining to see Israeli Air Force commanders strutting about with newfound pride after the Lebanon debacle. They have exactly the same kind ego-driven inter-service rivalry that we do. Demonstrating some relevance after failing to demonstrate that Hezbollah could be fought from the air is probably a considerable driving force behind this story.
Suin said:
When Bolton, Hadley and Rice are all involved … well, I start to worry.
My first thought was the good, the bad and the ugly, but I couldn’t label Bolton good.
More bad news from the area, and we have no reason to believe anything this Administration says!
This, on top of news now that US will build a big military base in Iraq on the border with Iran.
I just read the Vanity Fair article about the White House “bunker” and recommend it. Many insiders speaking off the record.
The man, and Cheney, are nuts. Scary nuts.
So, apparently there’s a list of what countries can have nukes and what countries can’t. Who made that list? And how did Stalin and Mao get on the “can” side of the ledger? I mean, seriously, what leader today is worse than Stalin?
I wonder if Syria’s new nuclear program, and their urgent need for fissile material, will cause the Vice President to send Joe Wilson to Niger again. /s
Meanwhile in sunny Pakistan:
Thousands of people poured into the stadium in Peshawar to attend the funeral prayers for Jan, 69, a senior leader of Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam – a religious party which controls the province’s government.
Police put the figure at about 50,000.
Some mourners chanted “Death to Musharraf” – directing their anger at General Pervez Musharraf, the Pakistani president. Others chanted “Death to America”.
Anyone want to guess what will happen in Pakistan if the US bombs Iran?
-GSD
Mutually Assured Safety could work. Israel,
Pakistan, India SIGN THE NON-PROLIFERATION TREATY!
Mideast Nuclear Weapon Free Zone (MENWFZ)
http://www.fas.org/nuke/control/menwfz/index.html
cleter @ 37
That’s what I’m talking about! That’s the Webb bill, right?. If rethugs filibuster it or let it come to a vote and vote against it, its a lose-lose for Rethuglicans. Political suicide.
Kinda sucks to be a republican right now.
TexBetsy @ 10
And the B-52 Incident was Aug. 30.
It appears that the Israeli air force was engaged in a “dry run”, to check out Syrian and Iranian air defences along the “northern route Syrian variant” to bomb the Iranian nuclear facility at Natanz. see link http://web.mit.edu/ssp/Publica…..p_06-1.pdf
hackworth @ 48
The ads would fairly write themselves.
“Susan Collins* voted against giving our troops time home with their families. Susan Collins voted with George W. Bush and against our troops. Call Susan Collins and tell her to support our troops.”
Norm Coleman. Whoever.
CNN covering this right now….on This Week At War
World wide military spending.
Poor America, we need to pick up the pace.
-GSD
Lord, how I yearn for a rest from war.
Global wind patterns: how would you do, Saudi Arabia, if a nuclear bomb went off in Israel?
http://oceansjsu.com/105d/expe…..on/11.html
Israels weapons a threat to Peace
http://www.wagingpeace.org/articles/2002/03/00_ste
inbach_israeli-wmd.htm
Israels weapons threat to peace in the middle east
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/STE203A.html
cleter @ 51
Yes, it is the Webb bill. I hope they tie Collins, Coleman and whomever else to the veto.
Elliott @ 6
The fact that Gates can make such a ridiculous statement – and that remark goes unquestioned – speaks volumes about American undereducation and the state of the MSM. They do not misunderestimate the ignorance of the American public.
The Pro War crowd at C-span 1 is pushing hatred, spewing lies and are not spending any time addressing the facts on the ground in Iraq.
When you listen and watch people like this it makes you understand why people around the world are terrified by Americans.
These people are filled with hatred and bigotry.
Amazing that the MSM will make it appear that these crowds are as substantial as the anti-war crowds.
Speaking of war mongering, that odious Melaine Morgan and her band of wing nuts are on C-Span right now. They are showing her pro-war rally yesterday.
what a feisty little “ally” we have over there.
Is there another country in the world that can get away with such brazen flouting of international norms?
What a travesty to see the leading (D) candidates on bended knee before the Lobby-that-is-on-trial-for-Espionage.
For example, Barack Obama, pwned.
http://www.suntimes.com/news/s…..01.article
Clinton, of course, totally pwned. (a derogatory term for ‘totally under another’s control, basically without even knowing it’)
Wouldn’t it be nice to have a political party that conducted foreign policy with our own interests in mind, rather than the interests of a deranged and paranoid rightwing faction of a foreign country?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 54
Me too. I was so excited after the last election, thinking that we could soon begin to talk about other things beside war and scandals. When we take over January 09, imagine all the things that will come to light then? This could go on for years….
The Webb bill (which occupies the moral high ground, implements sound military policy, and garners the support of military families) is the best cudgel with which to beat the GOP about their pointy heads (metaphorically). Is there any hope Democrats will use it to good effect? Will they make the GOP really filibuster it, with phone book readings through the night? Will the Preznit really veto it?
Will we ever know if our leaders don’t seize this opportunity? It could lead to a tectonic shift in public opinion.
Has Robert gates ever served in the military?
Obama’s warmongering is sickening, he’s vying with Hillary Clinton to see who can act the most hawkish.
schwifty @ 41
Exactly, the Israeli political leadership is worse than awful. It is worse even than Bush and Cheney. And I’m not talking about just Olmert but the whole spectrum of Israeli politicians. They have not had a single thought among them original or otherwise in 40 years.
It was an Air Force man Dan Halutz who led the fiasco in Lebanon last year. This is all about vindication and strutting to show that Israel can achieve “victories” just like it could in the good old days. Stupid, bankrupt, and pathetic.
ccmask @ 62
Commander Jesus Camper reportedly won’t leave office without having dealt with the ‘Iranian question’.
Because he’s so damn resolute.
You can see this coming from a mile down the road.
-GSD
itwasntme @ 55
Looks like not so good. OTOH, Paraguay looks like the safest place in the world. Do you see a safer place from potential nookyular fallout? I don’t.
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 60
Too bad it doesn’t say pro-war though. It says Support the Troops as opossed to the other side, not supporting the troops. If you look in the crowd, there are many eligible aged men for military service.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 64
He was in the USAF, I believe.
eldodog @ 50
Thanks for that link…wow
Oklahoma kiddo @ 64
1967-69, Air Force Strategic Air Command, per wiki.
GSD @ 67
Because the neocons know dam well that they will never find anyone in the wh who is most agreeable as Bush.
“Commander Jesus Camper” — LOL
BBAK (Be back)
ccmask @ 69
You can’t support the troops if you don’t let them rest.
Nor can you support the troops if you don’t provide them the best medical and convalescent care.
Morgan and her kind are completely full of shite.
ccmask @ 73
i wish i could be as confident as you are that none of the D or R presidential candidates might consider attacking iran.
If there had been a huge explosion in an uninhabited, or unreported-upon, area, might it have been picked up by the seismic monitors that look for earthquake activity? I look at http://www.iris.edu/seismon pretty regularly (they picked up the mine explosion in Utah) and don’t recall seeing anything in that area in that time.
WASHINGTON, Sept. 15 — While scrutiny this week focused on the debate over troop strength, President Bush also used the occasion to turn up the pressure on Iran, using his speech on Thursday to stress the need to contain Iran as a major reason for the continued American presence in Iraq.
Mr. Bush’s language indicated that the debate, at least for now, might have tilted toward Mr. Cheney. By portraying the battle with Iran as one for supremacy in the Middle East, Mr. Bush turned up the language another, more bellicose, notch. “If we were to be driven out of Iraq, extremists of all strains would be emboldened,” Mr. Bush said. “Iran would benefit from the chaos and would be encouraged in its efforts to gain nuclear weapons and dominate the region.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09…..OYHFbsYPWu 1RA
TeddySanFran @ 72
Back then I am thinking that the only way to get into the AF was to sign up for four years.
GSD @ 67
‘Deciders don’t do roadmaps, baby’…
Re the B52 incident – did Cheney have a hand in countermanding established protocol like he did in standing down the the USAF on 9/11?
Are all “Deciders” megalomaniacs?
Text of a Democracy Now interview about Scott Ritter’s book, it is long but very interesting.
Target: Iran
Israel did prevent Saddam Hussein from getting nukes, didn’t they?
Iran having nukes would be bad, no?
Iran. Is that the fuse the fundies are trying to ignite?
Nobody was killed, am I right?
The more the crisis and chaos in the Middle East, the more it makes it easier to slip the oil out the back door…far less people will be looking.
Israel didn’t break any treaties by having a nuclear arsenal, correct?
I’ve been predicting a nuclear war with Iran here since last year. A couple of important deadlines – at least in my mind – have passed, probably because the military wasn’t ready or elements necessary found a way to keep from performing the mission required. But officers who have shown distaste for such an operation are probably being replaced as fast as feasible, and we’re drawing closer to the inevitable. Bush wants war with Iran before he steps down, and a non-nuclear set of attacks will not only be ineffectual, but will draw down the dwindling supplies of conventional cruise missiles and smart aerial ordinance to too low of an inventory for any possibility that might come up – like a hurried evacuation from Iraq, for instance, which would require massive conventional bombing to assure an evacuation corridor into Kuwait and/or Jordan.
If the new 2nd generation of enhanced-radiation nuclear weapons are ready, then this is going to happen very soon. They need to be able to keep the Iranians from usiing their coast militarily, and to secure the main Iranian oil assets close to the Gulf, otherwise the plan fails.
It is going to happen, folks. To quote Dr. Riki Ott who predicted that the Exxon Valdez grounding was “not a matter of if, but of when,” the evening the tanker hit Bligh Reef, I say the same on this upcoming disaster.
As to the Israelis’ role in this, I really don’t know. I even wonder whether they consulted with our DOD on the Syria raid(s) before they happened. They certainly didn’t inform the Turks, whose territory they overflew, in violation of all known military agreements between those two countries.
Constant Reader – while we don’t know precisely what the Israelis did, no one so far has assumed they dropped the big one or anything similar. I think the idea that this was a proof of concept mission demonstrating that Israel can fly over Syria (to the Turkish border where they apparently ditched some fuel canisters)and can do something (making a hole in the desert) is the point.
And the desire to keep this all hushhush adds to the worries. The floating of tales like “they were hitting Hezbollah supply lines” suggests that they don’t want a real discussion of this mission yet.
Both the Jerusalem Post and Haaretz are covering the attack pretty nonstop and are quite surprised at the level of silence around it.
BigMitch @ 86
yes. but…
1) no evidence of that
2) not as bad as expanding war in the ME
Sometimes a “demonstration” of military capability prevents war, isn’t it so?
Who designated Israel as the designated nuclear hitter in the Middle East?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 83
There’s a theory about certain personality types who need to be right, at all times…But malignant narcissism might be a closer ‘decider’ diagnosis.
May I put it this way? I trust the Iranian PM about as much as I trust Bibi.
BM
what are you trying to say? that neocon lunacy is fine if it is Israeli?
Ed*ard Teller @ 91
Is Turkey complaining?
Breaking CNN Headline News…
O J arrested
sporkovat @ 61
That espionage trial has yet to take place and if the I-lobby has its way the trial will not take place. The MSM has been happy to keep the American public in the dark in regard to the A*P*C Rosen/Franklin/Weismann investigation and the seven times delayed trial.
Larry Franklin
http://www.cicentre.com/Docume…..n_Case.htm
The indictment for the A*P*C Rosen/Weismann/Franklin investigation
http://www.globalsecurity.org/…..ug2005.htm
Israel wants the attack on Iran to take place before this goes to trial and Americans realize that A*P*C Rosen/Weismann Franklin’s illegal activities along with Israeli officials undermined National Security by putting us in a checkmate situation with Iran.
ET – one suggestion in the various articles on this mission (and I don’t have the link handy) was that Israel flew over Syria and bombed something as a nudge to the US, reminding Bush and friends that Israel can and will hit Iran by itself if the US doesn’t act.
There have been quotes in Haaretz from Israeli leaders saying a nuclear Iran is untenable and that they will hit Iran even if no one else will.
Cozumel @ 100
Thank you, Coz. We need a break from the wrestling match.
sona @ 98
Lunacy is always bad.
You don’t have to be a lunatic to think that Israel has enemies. There is a declared war going on between syria and israel.
The U.S. has not faced the sort or existential threats israel faces every day, and to compare their right wing to ours is, to borrow a term, lunacy.
Mitch – Turkey is complaining, Syria has said the attack will get a response and from what I know, no one appointed Israel as the Judge, Jury and Executioner of the Middle East.
newtonusr @ 103
Anytime ; )
katymine @ 84
Ritters book “Target Iran” is worth the read.
Siun @ 102
Doesn not compute. Israel would rather have the US hit Iran, and every indication from Washington is that they will do so. (I agree with ET, though I am doubtful of the nuclear component.) Why would Israel do anything to take on the burden of going to war with Iran, when the U.S. seems intent on doing so by itself?
Siun @ 92
I’m not a military expert, but I don’t think you’d hit a supply line with a big honkin’ bomb. You’d probably use lots of little bombs or missiles. If they used a BHB, it’s more likely to be some sort of fixed, well built facility.
BigMitch @ 86
No. Iran having nukes is largely inconsequential beyond the whole question of nuclear proliferation around the world. They have no way to deliver them anywhere beyond their nearest neighbors, making any nukes an expensive deterrent that can’t really be used.
Look at Pakistan and India, having nukes has caused both countries very tense moments without any noticeable benefit. Pakistan happens to be a much less stable country than Iran, not to mention it is probably the largest exporter of nuclear weapon technology in the world.
BigMitch @ 99
Is Turkey complaining?
Their ambassador to Israel complained rather sternly last Thursday. The Israelis overflew Turkey on their way in, dropping their wing tanks just inside Turkey. No notification was given, and as of the weekend, the Israelis haven’t commented on any overflight of Turkish territory.
Have you researched last summer’s Lebanon oil spill yet?
Siun @ 105
Are you seriously this naive? In international relations there are the strong, who do what they want, and the weak, who do what they must.
BM
No it is not lunacy to suggest that Israeli and US right wing neoconservatism is very interlinked. You have the the right to be dismissive of many who think that but equally those many have the right to think whatever seems rational to them. BTW, Israel is not the only country that is confronted with an existential threat on a daily basis.
Doesn not compute. Israel would rather have the US hit Iran, and every indication from Washington is that they will do so. (I agree with ET, though I am doubtful of the nuclear component.)
Wait for the “Remember the Maine” “Gulf of Tonkin” incident. Some nut will assault a US Navy ship, maybe an aircraft carrier, and that will be it.
BigMitch @ 86
Worse than the unstable coup leader in Pakistan having nukes? Worse than Stalin having nukes? Worse than Mao having nukes? Worse than apartheid South Africa having nukes?
No.
Mitch – Israeli leaders would love the US to attack Iran (and so we will) but Israel wants to make sure of it – and so leaders there have been quite explicit that even if Bush doesn’t have the guts they do. And they definitely frame it in testosterone talk …
Ed*ard Teller @ 111
Sounds rather pro forma to me.
Not yet.
BigMitch @ 94
No. Sometimes it spurs a dangerous destabilizing arms race.
I recognize who is “naive” and who is not.
BigMitch @ 99
The Israeli’s have a huge role in this.. Go look at the A*P*C website the I-Lobby has been pushing this for an attack on Iran for years. Bill Kristol, Ledeen, Marc Reuel Gerecht, Woolsey and many more of the radical pushers of the I-Lobby mixed up with the theo/defense cons have been pushing this for years.
Ariel Sharon was pushing the Bush administration hard before he fell into a coma, Israeli officials have been repeating unsubstantiated and inflammatory claims about Iran for years. Come on! you don’t know what Israels role is in this… Bull!
Did a little googling, and found this:
http://www.aina.org/news/20050104115532.htm
The article (from 2005) appears to mostly quote Bush Administration officials.
There are two people who have intel sources – Scott Ritter AND Larry Johnson. Both have stated that Iran WILL be attacked.
I have resolved that it will happen. No one can say or do to stop it if the new WHIG (WH Iran Group) say BOMBS away. I am not sure that even the start of WWIII will wake up the Dancing with the Stars/American Idol zombie American populace.
sona @ 113
Asserting that they (american and Isareli neo-cons) are “intertwined” is not lunacy. What I meant to convey is that the role of each is properly evaluated differently from the other. U.S. Neocons are trying to establish a far off empire, and are dismissive of intelligence. Israeli hawks are concerned about real threats, and are technologically quite capable. See the difference?
Was OJ arrested for supplying clandestine nuclear material to Syria?
Israel: right or wrong. Don’t you just love it?
BigMitch @ 117
Not yet.
If you’d like, I could try to schedule a lunch or meeting with Rick Steiner, the guy who the Lebanese hired to assess the damages. Here’s his report to the Lebanese government. He teaches at UAA.
Ten Iraqis and one Frenchman were killed on the 1981 attack on the Osirak reactor. It was a light water reactor and may or may not have been related to a nuclear weapons program. This attack did not prevent the Iraqis from re-establishing a program which was dismantled after the First Gulf War. This did not prevent Bush, Cheney, and Rice et al from citing it as a reason to invade Iraq in 2003. Israel did obtain illegally heavy water from the British, an essential component for their reactor at Demona. I do not know if the aid they got from the French was illegal at the time or not.
Our attitude toward non-proliferation and the NPT is to say the least eclectic. We do not have a problem with Israel having 300 plus nuclear weapons. We have recently signed a deal with the Indians which will allow them to free up some of their reactors for nuclear weapons production. We turn a blind eye to the the Pakistanis building new facilities to stay abreast of our help to the Indians. But Bush thinks that Iran’s lackadaisical nuclear program, weapons related or not, is evil and terrible. If Iran wants to get a bomb, it very likely will. The price to stop them would be extraordinarily high. It would threaten the flow of oil and throw the world into a recession.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 125
No, not really.
For those who think the Israeli government has all the right answers, may I suggest reading former President’s Carter’s most recent book.
BM
No, I don’t see the difference given the continued existence of occupied territories beyond the mandated 1967 borders and dispossession of Palestinians, more semitic than most Israelis.
a rogue state having nukes is bad, right?
Israel has repeated bombed, attacked and invaded surrounding countries, countless crimes against peace, and has flouted dozens of U.N. resolutions, a very long list of which is here.
http://www.mediamonitors.net/m…..ouni1.html
Iran under the mullahs has attacked no one.
And who can be gullible or stupid enough to beleive the same neo-con idiots who trumpeted the threats from Iraqi nookular weapons when they try the very same thing against Iran?
and btw, they have shifted the talking points, didn’t you get Cheney’s memo? Now the casus belli is alleged attacks against US forces in Iraq.
So no, since the feisty little “ally” has not signed the NPT, they are not in violation. but so what?
http://globalresearch.ca/index…..p;aid=6783
It is way, way, way past time for occupation opponents in Congress (if any there truly be) to start telling the American public the whole truth about our actions in Iraq. Not about the actions of our military, but about the actions of all those profiting at their expense and enabled by their presence, at unbelievable cost to the people of that nation.
The despicably amoral scope of our Armed Forces-enforced “smash and grab” in Iraq is inescapable and horrifying and yet still publicly unspoken and unmentioned in the halls of Congress. All we hear is the year-old recycled rhetoric of those who can’t or won’t stop focusing on the “civil war” cover story that only serves to keep the true “Grand Theft Iraq” agenda quietly humming along in the background.
Kathleen – Mitch is well aware of all that but choses to ignore it because he, like so much of our leadership, sees loyalty to Israel as more important.
“Naive?” Mitch – sorry, I don’t see much point in trading barbs on this.
BigMitch @ 112
Cheney could not have said it better himself.
BigMitch @ 85
destroyed the plutonium program for sure. but accelerated the uranium program.
more importantly, one must consider if a nuclear israel was considered a threat that motivated the iraq nuclear programs as a deterent.
certainly, it does seem that iran’s nuclear weapons ambitions – if they do exsist, and that is not clear – may very likely be a rational defensive response to what is seen as threatening american and israeli behaviour.
i’d like to see negotiations for a nuclear free ME. that would be the ideal way, imo, to stop nuclear weapons proliferation (in iran and elsewhere).
Why would Iran or Syria with a bomb be worse than Pakistan with a bomb? What are the criteria for who can/can’t have nukes?
We didn’t bomb Stalin to keep him from getting the bomb. Why should we bomb the Iranians?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 125
My editing, to show what I see in much of the left wing blogosphere.
BigMitch @ 123
The Israelis have their own empire. It is just a lot smaller.
No one seems to understand. While it was right and just to give a homeland to the Jewish people in May, 1948, it is not right to give the Palestinians a homeland in 2007.
William F. Buckley said, years ago (hard to type – my hands are frozen from prepping silver salmon for the smokehouse) – “If anyone wants to know what it is like to NOT have a deterrent, ask Hirohito.”
BigMitch @ 137
The point being?
Let’s please separate our opinions of this particular Israeli government/administration and the State of Israel itself.
sona @ 130
sona, I just woke up and haven’t had coffee yet. For your information, the term “occupied” is a legal term, which has significance, for example, in the application of the Geneva Conventions. The territories of which you speak are disputed, but they are not “occupied” as that phrase is used in the law. Would that a leader would arise within these territories to make peace with Israel, and establish a homeland for the Palestinians. This has been my constant prayer.
If Saddam Hussein had bombed Israeli nuclear facilities in the 70s to prevent the introduction of nuclear weapons into the Middle east, would that have been ok?
Let’s give Big Mitch credit for showing up and making his points. I’d like to suggest people keep from getting rude and stay specific about perceived problems…
cleter @ 144
Was Israel threatening to use them on Iraq?
puppethead @ 110
#
No. Iran having nukes is largely inconsequential beyond the whole question of nuclear proliferation around the world. They have no way to deliver them anywhere beyond their nearest neighbors, making any nukes an expensive deterrent that can’t really be used.
Look at Pakistan and India, having nukes has caused both countries very tense moments without any noticeable benefit. Pakistan happens to be a much less stable country than Iran, not to mention it is probably the largest exporter of nuclear weapon technology in the world.
Israel having nukes is bad…YES!
Mordechai Vanunu one of my heroes
http://www.vanunu.freeserve.co.uk/
http://64.233.169.104/search?q…..-17_en.pdf Israeli nuclear capabilities and threat to middle east peace&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us
ISRAELI NUCLEAR CAPABILITIES AND THREAT TO PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST
Iranian, Iraqi, Syrian, Qatar,Oman, Saudi Arabia and other nations in the middle east have been writing to the UN for years demanding, begging the UN, the heads of the Iaea to put Israels massive stockpiles of nuclear, biological and chemical weapons under the radar instead of allowing Israel to operate in the shadows and intimidate their neighbors.
#Israel needs to start playing by the same rules that they demand their neighbors play by.
#Israel needs to sign the Nuclear non Proliferation treaty.
#The US and Israel need to sign an agreement that they will not pre-emptively attack Iran (look what they have witnessed the Bush administration do in Iraq and Israel do in Lebanon)
Israel and illegal sales to China out of Israels back door
http://www.nti.org/db/china/imisr.htm
“Under U.S. pressure, Israel backed out of a deal with China, potentially valued at $1 billion, in July of 2000. Under the deal, Israel would have outfitted three Chinese Il-76 planes with Phalcon radars. The United States believed the deal would tip the strategic balance against Taiwan. Chinese authorities responded harshly and demanded return of their deposit and compensation. In the Spring of 2002, Israel agreed to pay a reported $300 million to put an end to the dispute over the cancellation.
Since the cancellation of the Phalcon radar deal, Israel has assisted China in other areas including the development of the HQ-9/FT-2000, a surface-to-air missile, which would possibly use U.S. seeker technology. It has also assisted China in the area of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV). In July 2002, China deployed Israeli “Harpy” anti-radar drones in military exercises in Fujian Province.”
Oklahoma kiddo @ 139
Of course, you must mean another homeland, since Jordan is mostly Palistinean. But let’s agree to put that aside. Who would lead this homeland? Will their leader foreswear violence against Israel? Gaza was part of Egypt. Why don’t you condemn Egypt for forsaking it, and condemning the residents to the brutal lives they lead?
cleter @ 144
No, and it would also be an environmental crime. See Rick Steiner’s report (linked in #126 above) to the Lebanese government on the Mediterranean oil spill for a discussion of other environmental crimes commited by the IDF last year in the Hizbollah War.
Hugh @ 138 and OKK @ 139 – thank you – my point exactly @130.
Ritter – Target: Iran
That is the question…. Are Israel’s interests == American interests?
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TexBetsy @ 146
I don’t know. When did deterrence magically stop working? It seemed to work pretty well with the US and the USSR. Would pre-emptive strikes against the USSR have been better?
Ed*ard Teller @ 149
Saddam would have died then.
BigMitch @ 143
In other words, an occupation even one lasting 40 years is not an occupation unless BigMitch says it is.
BigMitch @ 137
hey mitch… could you take me to task for what i write (if it’s wrong) and not put me under some sweeping generalization? please?
Big Mitch I agree with this statement of yours
“U.S. Neocons are trying to establish a far off empire, and are dismissive of intelligence.”
BigMitch @ 148
A Palestinian Homeland has been undermined at every turn by a huge portion of the International community. Who is being naive?
What Betsy said…
Kathleen @ 155
More like they create and disseminate false intelligence
My comment @151 is stuck in moderation…. one day I am going to figure out the rules of what gets caught and what is ok…
~~~Refresh now, katymine.~~~
cleter @ 144
What do you mean by okay? It would have lead to the destruction of Israel, who relies on a nuclear detterrent to prevent her enemies from attacking her with vastly more ground forces than she can muster. (Maybe not, but Israel can’t take the chance.) Would it have been legal? According to the might-makes-right theory, I suppose so. According to the “war of aggressions are prohibited theory” no. Saddam did fine for 30 years without nukes, and waged wars of aggression vs. Iran and Kuwait. So the analogy is not a good one.
Did Japan’s pre-emptive strike against us work?
I seem to recall it backfiring on them somewhat.
Ed*ard Teller @ 145
good call ET, thanks.
it’s a difficult topic because 1) many of us have such strong feelings on the issue and 2) it’s such a very important part of usa foreign policy in the ME.
but the reasons that make the topic difficult to discuss also make it important to have.
TexBetsy @ 142
Actually the State of Israel like most of its neighbors has an inherent problem. They define themselves along ethnic and religious lines. They are Arab or Moslem or Jewish. The result is that those who do not fall into the majority category in how the state is defined are second class citizens. 20% of Israelis are not Jewish. What does that mean for them living in a “Jewish” state. It means that they are second class citizens in their own country. I have no problem with a state of Israel in which all citizens have equal rights but I do not support one in which some by the simple fact of being Jewish have more rights than others.
The Encyclopedia Britanica says, the people of Canaan (Palestine) were “fainthearted in the face of the Israelite tribes.” The conquest of Canaan by Joshua and the Israelites was swift and decisive.” Homes were razed, people were displaced and human was put to an end. Sound familiar?
BigMitch @ 112
Call people names like “naive,” whether front-pagers or commenters, does not advance the discussion, in my view.
“The movement of radical Shiite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr on Saturday withdrew its support for the embattled Iraqi government, delivering a fresh blow to the political process of the country.”
Light at the end of the tunnel- We’re kickin ass, Mission Accomplished, 1,000 points of light—
Ian Welsh up above with a superb post on Greenspan:
No Greenspan Doesn’t Get to Rehabilitate His Reputation
BM
Your defence of Israeli neo cons and parsing of semantics re occupation and touting Jordan as the be all and end all is just too sanctimonious and specious to convince anybody. Suffice it to say you have not convinced me and many others. Whatever legal definitions you care to cite in defence of your views, the world refers to Israel’s occupied territories and gated Bantustans and a plurality around the world would like to see a Palestine for Palestinians. That plurality also holds the L*kud party and the USA as being largely responsible for the present impasse.
~~~ModNote: Edited for content to clear filters.~~~
From NTI:
http://www.nti.org/e_research/…..index.html
No mention of any nuclear facilities that sound like they’re in the middle of the desert.
This is THE most important item to remember besides just how wrong it will be when Iran is attacked:
Attack Iran –> Economy goes to hell
Hugh @ 163
Non-Jews can serve in the army, be educated in their native language and Hebrew, go to college, vote, be elected to knesset (parliament), etc. What’s second class?
In the legal sense, according to the United Nations, the United States with its “Coalition” is not occupying Iraq either.
But we all know now, because even the U.N. is operating on this premise, that “might makes right,” and therefore the nuclear-weapons-armed might of the governments of Israel and America have the unchallenged and unchallengeable right – right? – to tell those “un-occupied” Arabs how they’re going to live.
BigMitch @ 112
Thank you Big Mitch, for that concise summary of neocon foreign policy.
Hugh @ 153
An “occupation” refers to a situation like the one we have in Iraq. Land is concquered from an existing country which claims a right to re-establish governmental duties in the territory. Gaza was concquered from Egypt which relinquished claim to the territory. The West Bank was concquered from Jordon which relinquished claim to it. Both countries have peace treaties with Israel.
Shorter version: Just because Hush says “occupied” doesn’t make it so. (If that is the level of debate you prefer, Hugh.)
Betsy – what’s said on paper is not true necessarily. And if you are Palestinian, you don’t get those ponies.
selise @ 154
Excuse me. I thought I was the one being accused of supporting Israel “right or wrong.” It was that, to which I responded.
katymine @ 169
You have to wonder if the Republicans in Congress have thought this through. There’s no way they look good supporting Bush on this one. Once people are waiting in line for gasoline there will be political repurcussions.
BigMitch @ 148
Ilan Pappe’s book, _The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine_, an excellent book, publication of which has led to his having to leave Israel and move to the UK, using newly declassified papers from David ben Gurien, makes it quite clear that while British troops were still occupying the Mandate, Jewish settlers under ben Gurien’s command, cleared over 160 Palestinian villages and urban neighborhoods in areas which were supposed to have been part of the Palestinian state upon the end of the Mandate. Thousands of village and community leaders were killed, hundreds of Christian Palestinian men – the leadership Israelis keep asking us for the Palestinians to now provide – were stood up against walls or led into blind alleys or empty farm fields, and shot in cold blood.
Before any Palestinians fired a round. And months before the so-called overwhelming intervention by the Arab League.
I could go on and on, but the point is that Big Mitch probably doesn’t know this. Sadly, as illustrated by his lack of curiosity about the biggest environmental catastrophe in recent history in the Eastern Medierranean, he feels more comfortable not knowing the true history of what happened at the beginnings of Israel. He’s certainly not alone in this, though.
BigMitch @ 117
Really? Were you a fly on the wall? Or is anything less than a military response unworthy of respect?
TexBetsy @ 170
They can go to second class schools. They can have fewer and poorer public services. They can be criticized as they were during the Lebanon conflict last year as insufficiently patriotic. They can be threatened with being expelled. They can have less access to land for development since this is held in trust for Jewish development. And Israel has universal conscription so how many non-Jewish Israelis serve in the armed forces? And how many non-Jewish generals are there? And how many non-Jewish goverment ministers have there been? And how many non-Jewish prime ministers have there been? That is what second class means.
Hugh @ 179
And exactly what rights do Jews have in the Arab countries?
ET – great reference – thank you.
GordonM @ 179
Really? were you a fly on ther wall? Or is anything less than a military response unworthy of respect?
(sorry for the screw up. using my son’s notebook and the touchpad drives me psycho)
Cujo359 @ 176
I thought it back in the 70’s gas lines, when gas hit $4.00 and up across the country, I thought it when the gas pipeline broke to Arizona and there was NO fuel here for several weeks.
To me, it will have to be like the alcoholic that really has to hit rock bottom before they climb out of their haze to recovery. We all have been screaming intervention but no one is listening.
TexBetsy – Jews have established temples and rights in Iran, did in Iraq until the occupation when they became another population targeted (though Al Sadr’s people tried very hard to protect Baghdadi Jews), etc. For the most part, it was only after the theft of Palestine that Jews became a real target in Arabic countries. After all, Mohammed taught respect for all people of the Book.
Siun @ 182
I was hoping somebody else might respond. You can borrow my copy of _The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine_, Mitch.
GordonM @ 183
Turkey could go to the U.N. for example, and demand sanctions. Turkey could unilaterally impose economic sanctions: forbid the import of Israeli fruit. Sort of beyond my expertise, but there is plenty of options between a stern lecture, and a military response.
Siun @ 185
Approximately seven times as many Jews live in the greater Tehran area than live in Alaska, Mitch. Jews have served in many areas of government there, as Arabs do in Israel. The average Jewish female in Tehran is far better educated than the average Ethiopian Jew in Israel, and probably has better job prospects.
BigMitch @ 137
the cluster bombs dropped all over South Lebanon last summer days before the ceasefire had “made in the USA” stamped on them
maybe that has something to do with it?
At least 3 billion dollars of US taxpayer dollars a year have been tithed to Israel, maybe that has something to do with it?
BigMitch @ 173
I love these highly legalistic dodges. You could not have been bitten by a dog because dogs have four legs and what you were bitten by only had three. Neither Egypt nor Jordan exercised sovereignty over Gaza and the West Bank because this territory was part of the original British Palestine mandate. When partition occurred both Israel and a Palestinian state were envisioned. That Palestinians were never able to exercise sovereignty does not mean it wasn’t conferred on them just as it was conferred on Israel. So yes, Palestinian sovereign territory was seized by the Israelis in 1967 and yes, even under your tortured definition of occupation, it was occupied.
If this were any other country, this would not be an issue but it being Israel you will try to use every legal loophole to justify the unjustifiable.
BigMitch @ 148
It was not “right or just” that Israel was created by the UN, but understandable after the horrendous brutality suffered by Jews and millions of others (Poles, gypsies, etc) suffered under Hitlers rule.
But the crimes against humanity that the early Zi*onist subjected the Palestinian people to during the acquisition of land that (both legally and illegally) during the 30’s and 40’s in that part of the world needs to be acknowledged by Israel. ISRAEL EXISTS! But
Israel needs to abide by UN resolution 242, 338 and other UN resolutions that they are in violation of, get back to the 67 border, dismantle illegal settlements, share Jerusalem, share the water rights, give back the Golan Heights, and sign the Non-Proliferation treaty
I have read everything I could take in about the Palestinian Israeli issue. My favorite books were written by Prof Edward Said renowned scholar and activist, he is one of my heroes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Said
http://www.zmag.org/content/sh…..emID=10673
http://www.democracynow.org/ar…..26/1533258
Edward Said
http://64.233.169.104/search?q….._13-34.pdf edward Said on Palestinians&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=20&gl=us
~~~ModNote: Edited for content to clear filters.~~~
TexBetsy @ 180
And two wrongs are supposed to make a right? That is not a serious argument. In fact, it is no argument at all.
katymine @ 184
It didn’t work out too well for Ford. I’d guess that the lines were the thing that got Carter in the White House. The thing that got Carter out of the White House was probably the economic disruption that followed the $4.00/gal gasoline. Remember the inflation?
Of course, in both cases there were other causes (like Watergate, the hostage crisis), but IMHO, those were the big ones.
Ed*ard Teller @ 188
All true. Israel’s treatment of Sephardic Jews has been shameful, but it is being addressed, just as America’s treatment of blacks has been shameful, but hopefully we will make progress. Re: the situation of Jews in Iran: There was a vibrant Jewish community in Iran. It is threatened by the rise of the mullahs. Will the rise of the mullahs be unchecked? Who knows? Many — if not most — of the Persian Jews have relocated to Los Angeles.
In Iraq, Jews were the largest ethnic group in Baghdad in the 1930s. They are essentially gone now.
Israel and the US in violation of more UN resolutions than any other nations
S – Israeli UN Resolution Hypocrisy
by Stephen Lendman
July 31, 2006
Two nations stand out above all others as notorious serial abusers of UN resolutions – the US and Israel. Over the last half century, the US has used its Security Council veto many dozens of times to prevent any resolutions from passing condemning Israel for its abusive or hostile actions or that were inimical to Israeli interests. It’s also voted against dozens of others overwhelmingly supported by the rest of the world in the UN General Assembly. By its actions and with 6% of the world’s population, the US has thus arrogantly ignored the will of nearly all the other 94% to support its client state even when Israel had committed war crimes or crimes against humanity the rest of the world demanded it be held to account for. In the words of one UK observer using a baseball analogy: “Only the USA could have a World Series and not invite the rest of the world.”
http://www.zmag.org/content/sh…..emID=10673
BigMitch @ 187
What do you know about the political landscape in Turkey?
They just had a major change in their government, the Islamic faction has taken control over the secular. Another example of the meddling of the USA into the dynamics of the middle east have pushed governments farther and farther to the right/conservative.
In case anyone missed it, there’s a new thread upstairs.
Cujo359 @ 196
I know but continuing this discussion as long as it lasts
Hugh @ 190
This is the issue where some on the left turn right, get rigid, and go blind.
Gotta get ready to help prep Diane Benson for tomorrow’s press conference asking for the US House to open an investigation of Don Young’s illegal insertion of the Coconut Road earmarks for his wealthy developer friend/contributor.
Mitch, I’m using Kosher salt on the Silvers. I’ll have some for ya soon…
Ed*ard Teller @ 200
Diane is doing very well on ActBlue, in case you haven’t checked in recent days. Please tell her we say hello and best wishes.
TexBetsy @ 170
there’s lots…
1) wrt knesset – see Azmi Bishara
2) law of return for jews only
3) Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law, which prevents some palestinians married to israelis from living in israel.
4) land use
5) for more see The Unmasking of the Jewish and Democratic State
when i visited PHR-israel in tel aviv they described to me many of the issues of second class citizenship of non-jewish israelis.. especially with regard to social services (medical, educational,…)
The volunteer crew at Diane Benson for US Congress to egregious:
{{{{{HUGE HUGS!!}}}}}
BigMitch @ 94
A demonstration of military capability=preemptive war. Something most of us progressives find repulsive. It causes this. (scroll down to pictures. Note the small bodybags.)
Thanks ET. Happy to help. She needs to show early money to demonstrate she is the serious candidate this time around as well as last year.
When is the primary? That affects fundraising efforts.
BigMitch @ 173
but mitch, the people living there did not relinquish their claim to their own land.. and certainly egypt and jordon had no right to so on their behalf.
it is not an occupation of one country by another… that i will grant. but it is an occupation of a people by a country. that is no less an occupation for the people who live there than the type of occupation you describe.
If America Knew
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
http://interfaithpeaceinitiative.com/events.htm
The Apartheid Paradigm in Palestine-Israel:
Highlighting Issues of Justice and Equality
A Sabeel Conference October 26 and 27, 2007
Boston’s Old South Church
Keynote Address:
Archbishop Desmond Tutu
seems the other team fled the field once it became cluttered with facts and links.
sporkovat @ 208
There was improvement, no one was called an “anti-semite” for their views or linking facts. And the conversation was not shut down which has happened at FDL
sporkovat @ 207
in defense of mitch, it’s hard to feel like the only person when there is a group arguing against you.
i hope this is a conversation we can continue… even if it’s only a bit at a time.
Not the first time Israel has pre-emptively attacked Syria
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/…..index.html
selise @ 210
While I understand that it may be difficult for Mitch or anyone arguing alone. But please I have been attacked here at FDL weeks (several times in very offensive ways) for not only bringing up the I/P issue but numerous times after I apologized for what was determined by some to be offensive, so please…
Kathleen @ 211 -
i don’t think mitch was attacked… so, while i have sympathy for him, i don’t think anyone did anything wrong.
attacks are a different matter. don’t like ‘em.
selise @ 212
Call it an intervention …..
Go Here for another view
http://www.joshualandis.com/blog/
jo6pac
I should think if Syria wanted nuclear weapons they’d want to go to a country with more experience in the technology of mass (read, indiscriminant) destruction, such as, say, Israel.
selise @ 213
Oh c’mon selise. You are an angel. We have all been wrong. I made a mistake over Bill Richardson and got corrected throughout the thread (even after acknowledging I was wrong), until I cried uncle. We all have to put up with being wrong from time to time. Please don’t beat yourself up over corrrecting something, especially when you are so polite.
For Mitch
http://www.tikkun.org/
jo6pac
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article18
381.htm
Debate Essential To Arab-Israeli Peace
By Amy Goodman
09/14/07 “Seattle Post-Intelligencer” — – I sat down with former President Carter last week at the Carter Center in Atlanta. The center was hosting a conference of human-rights defenders, people at the front lines confronting repressive regimes around the globe. After a quarter-century of humanitarian work through the Carter Center, monitoring elections, working to eradicate neglected tropical diseases and focusing on the poor, Jimmy Carter now finds himself at the center of the storm in the Israel-Palestine conflict.
After more than three decades of work on the Middle East, Carter released a book titled “Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid.” The book’s title alone has created a furor. But Carter is undeterred:
“The word ‘apartheid’ is exactly accurate.
mui @ 216
after i get over the ego thing, i like to think that being proven wrong is a good thing… gives me a chance to learn.
p.s. i’m not beating myself up… just trying to practice empathy…
jo6pac @ 218
really like Tikkun. Was able to march and have a converstions with Rabbi Lerner at one of the anti-invasion marches…
selise @ 220
Okay practice away. Well even having the ego driven down from time to time, personally speaking, is not a bad thing for me. We constantly learn to be mensches.
I’ve been tag-teamed on here as well, s’all right.
respect for those who valiantly espouse their POV, especially without resorting to smears.
and it is true the Mods sometimes get highly active on threads with certain 3rd rail subject matter.
great stuff came out…the Israeli ‘New Historians’ have really added to the dialog about that country’s founding.
the earlier quote from Scott Ritter, I hadn’t seen it, it was an eye-opener.
Kathleen @ 221
As an Atheist myself it people like the Rabbi that gives me some hope, that the we might make out of this mess alive.
jo6pac
Thanks Kathleen, Hugh, Sporkovac, Selise, for a find demonstration of the use of fact and knowledge wrt the most pressing problem facing the world brought on by myth, belief, deception, ignorance, misinformation, propaganda, and downright lies. You all do good work.
BigMitch, TexBetsy please go to your local libraries and obtain copies of:
Beyond Chutzpah by Norman G. Finkelstein (ISBN 0-520-24598-9)
and
The Great War for Civilization, The Conquest of the Middle East by Robert Fisk (ISBN 1-84115-007-X)
If your atrguements can stand up to the facts presented within these two books, then those facts will withstand anything presented here. Otherwise, all you are doing is propaganda put out by an agenda detrimental to the actual wellbeing and interests of two countries – your choice.
BigMitch @ 173
An “occupation” refers to a situation like the one we have in Iraq. Land is concquered from an existing country which claims a right to re-establish governmental duties in the territory. Gaza was concquered from Egypt which relinquished claim to the territory. The West Bank was concquered from Jordon which relinquished claim to it. Both countries have peace treaties with Israel.
Shorter version: Just because Hush says “occupied” doesn’t make it so. (If that is the level of debate you prefer, Hugh.)
I completely agree with this. oh and Ariel Sharon is a man of peace too. And Palestinians like walls! It’s a fact!
It sounds to me like another case where Israel doesn’t have to play by the rules that everyone else does. Just imagine if the situation were reversed and Syria had bombed some secret military facility inside Israel. Methinks the USA wouldn’t be so silent then.
it’s the old principle of moral reciprocity that apologists for state terror would like to revoke.
a bedrock principle of most of the worlds religions.
instead, they would substitute some variation of “the strong do what they want.”
Oh- that explains a lot. I mean, why would we take out Iran and leave Syria?
And, what the hell, let’s fuck with Mexico, too.
Murky issue lurks in Syria
http://djysrv.blogspot.com/200…..rt_16.html
Too much disinformation
Nice link. That is the prevailing wind pattern for the summer in the northern hemisphere. In the winter wind patterns generally reverse so that the west coast gets storms usually from the south etc. Over land masses weather is modulated by mountains and the proximity of water and other factors.
Historically one can see the wind in the change of seasons as it influenced trading in the Indian Ocean where one sailed out of port 6 months of the year, and back towards home the other six months.
The people I know who sail the Persian Gulf as ship captains say that for a large part of the year the wind blows down the rift mountains in Iraq that made the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, at a cross angle to the Straits of Hormuz. Meaning – away from Israel towards Syria and Iraq.
My guess (and only a guess) is that Israel would use conventional big hole in the desert type of weapons, where Cheney would be very tempted to show off what bad boys we are by using ‘limited tactical nukes’: his rational might be that he would be immitating FDR and paving the way for 50 more years of American enforced peace. Of course the rational is the same that brought us ‘the people of Iraq will greet us with flowers’, and miscalculates how many others have nukes now. I’ll stop guessing now.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 25
He might’ve only signed on originally for the Iraq war.
If so then his back-stabbing is yet to arrive. But, Bushies do not fail to stab when the time is right. Just ask KKKarl.
newtonusr @ 103
Unless he’s dyed his hair blonde I really don’t care.
Ya know, with the B-52 and 6 nukes aboard we’ve wondered if they were headed to the ME, but we don’t know specifically where or for what purpose?
I wonder if what the Israelis did was a practice run to get ready for an attack on Iran with some nukes we would provide.
But, now that’s been derailed, so what happens next? It would seem things are on hold and as long as US nuke security is maintained and Adm. Fallon says “No”, then we might be safe from a WW V.
Geez, I can hardly write “WW” since I’m so used to writing “www.”.