You're a smart woman. You of all people should know about the asymmetrical intimidation problem that Paul Krugman talks about -- the one where the media is afraid to go after Rudy Guiliani for claiming he's a rescue worker, but they'll try to demolish your husband over a haircut because they know that they'll get swarmed by the right wing noise machine for the former and pay no price for the latter. That's how it works.
So I was really disappointed today to read at Taylor Marsh's place that you had joined with Diaper Dave Vitter and John "McCarthy" McCain to attack MoveOn. We (and by that I mean the netroots) defend you when the MSM try to make your campaign a pinata over stupid, insignificant stuff. When they try to say your race should end because of your illness, but don't say squat about Fred Thompson's lymphoma. We're your first line of defense, the only messaging machine that progressives have.
So here's the rule. You never repeat right wing talking points to attack your own, ever. You never enter that echo chamber as a participant. Ever. You never give them a hammer to beat the left with. Just. Don't. Do. It.
I wrote about this last year when Hillary Clinton went after John Kerry for that stupid joke:
I can see we're going to have to set up some sort of "Democratic PR school" soon. They've become so accustomed to being George Bush's whipping posts they no longer recognize it when they have the advantage, and as the John Kerry incident demonstrates they are in sore need of a few remedial lessons on how to press it when they do.
First of all — I don't care if John Kerry was eating live babies on TV, one week out from an election you do not repeat GOP talking points. Ever. It makes you look like a big wuss who can't stand up to the Republicans, even when they're playing from an exceptionally weak hand on an issue you own. For all those anxious to be seen as the tough defenders of national security, huddling in a crouch position while they pummel you about the head and bleating "yes, yes, we deserve this" does not have the best optics.
Secondly — did I mention that the Democrats own the issue of Iraq? Even the WSJ acknowledges it is the #1 factor influencing people's votes this election. If the Republicans want to bring it up, that's a perfect opportunity to pivot and attack.
The war is a desperate mess. When offered the opportunity to cudgel your own side, you pivot and attack. How about, "glad you mentioned that...I think an ad is about as relevant to George Bush's growing collection of toe tags as a haircut is to the problems facing this country." Or, "thanks for the opportunity to discuss this, Chris. I personally would not choose the word "betrayal" to characterize General Petraeus's lack of judgment or skewing of the facts to perpetuate the war, but I do think we should be looking at the fact that this was the bloodiest summer ever in Iraq and asking ourselves if the assessment we're being given about the situation is realistic..."
There are any number of ways you can answer that question well and none of them involve attacking MoveOn. They're out there on the left so you can look "moderate." They're saying what needs to be said, opening the conversation up so John Edwards isn't considered the left-wing fringe loon that nobody should listen to. Understand that they have contributed a lot to the anti-war movement and that from a practical standpoint, the Edwards campaign needs the solid support of the base to get where he needs to go and everybody's feeling a bit played this week because nobody other than MoveOn seems to want to take on the carefully orchestrated dog-and-pony show that just bought us a few more Friedman Units of war. And we're not very happy when the people we defend turn around and start kicking them for it.
We love you. We want to love you.
Knock it off.
Login Here
Share This
Spotlight
Jane! FireDogLake!
Right on, Jane
Of all people the Edwards campaign should be aware of the RW media machine.
Jane!!!
Ok, good point, Jane– but how do we expand the “messaging machine” beyond the net? The way I see it, we can discipline people like Mrs. Edwards into following a consistent dialogue and line of attack, but how do we get the Corporate Media to change their ways?
I suppose you’re on the right track though– work on getting the Democrats/progressives to develop a more cogent concept of public relations and how to effectively use it, and then move on to reforming the media. But my puny mind is still wrapped around trying to figure out how to do both simultaneously.
Score!!!!
Great post Jane. Thank you!
Thank you Jane. We need Move On. What was it last night that I was reading from one of the Bill Moyers’ specials that Pumpkinhead lamely justified his lineups in the rush to war by saying “there was no opposition”? I think I will write Elizabeth a letter of my own. Civility does not work in DC anymore. (I am not sure that it ever did.)
Amen! There’s more than enough material to attack on the Bushie side of the ledger. Pivot and attack: it’s not just for dinner, anymore.
Strong medicine perhaps. But the view here is it is a necessary dose of reality. Do not bite the hand that treats you nice. Seriously, don’t do it.
Well said Jane. This is a hard lesson, because progressives want to sound so “reasonable” but when you’re dealing with the right wing, you can’t give them anything, ever. Reminder to self: listen to Jane.
John Edwards get my vote in Iowa because of his willingness to take on issues like the poor and blue-collar Amerika.
This disappoints me. what do you think OKK and Lahoma?
Jane, this is so true! Thanks to you and the other front-pagers for all that you do. (And thanks to the mods of course.)
The first to call the Surgin General “General Betrayus” were soldiers in the field. I remember reading it first at a link provided by Juan Cole’s site back at the end of winter or beginning of spring. It was inevitable, and is the kind of thing enlisted men and NCOs often create when frustrated.
I’d look for the link, but what with NCOs who write to the NYT dying and USAF crewmen involved in the Minot-Barksdale hijack derailment being hit, I’d rather not expose anybody new to these gangsters.
I hate to have to agree with Jane about somebody I’ve come to respect as much as Elizabeth Edwards on this, but you’re right, Jane.
Please remember, folks - MoveOn.Org was merely expressing a term in common usage over in Iraq by our highly abused service men and women.
So Jane, basically the gist of your post is that the merits and principles behind what “we” say are subordinate to the tactic turning up the dial on our own echo chamber? A bit of realpolitik for the campaign trail, then.. but as a tree hugging far left liberal myself, I was astonished at moveon for stooping to Ann Coulter’s level. Accusing a military officer of betrayal is tantamount to accusing him of treason, and regardless of whether he is a willing hostage of Bush’s tactic to hide behind his medals, you don’t shoot the hostage. Whatever happened to defeating the enemy without becoming like them?
And there are other Dems who need to get the same message.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 9
You beat me to it.
schwifty @ 14
Do you think he did NOT betray the troops? Ask the troops. Ask Patraeus’s boss.
Jim Clausen @ 11
We, that is Lahoma and I, think this is something that needed to be said. ;0)
Maybe it’s a money issue — my personal pittance that was allotted for the Edwards campaign this month went to MoveOn instead. I wonder if JRE’s campaign saw the dollars drop-off this week?
Nicely said, Jane. Being part of the Wurlitzer is always a mistake for anyone on our side. If MoveOn wasn’t on the spectrum, JRE would be the flaming radical. Is that the positioning Elizabeth seeks? I think not.
Just when I want to sit with EE and talk with her about this, I find myself without the proper words…
snip
Enter Jane. Precisely.
The fickle finger of fate flips fat frogs flat!
God damn it! What the hell is wrong with the Move on ad?
As far as Ms Edwards is concerned- if she wants to join the crowd of Dem bashers and if she wants to see the goopers in power for the time needed to totally finish their job of destroying this country then ya all know what? screw her! Not one red cent to her husbands campaign. NOT ONE RED CENT. AGAIN-What the hell is wrong with that ad?
No one but MoveOn could deliver that message. And no one but Jane could’ve taken Mrs. Edwards to woodshed.
Bravo.
Exactamundo. That said, I believe the politics on the right is so empty, out of touch, and reliant on falsehood, there is no need for ad hominem attacks. Petreus’ spin and selective political perspective may very well turn out to be a disaster if it forestalls any real formulation for redeployment, but the real burden for Dems and the left is to show how the heck we can get out of there, while acknowledging the seriousness of such a move, in a way that the populace can sign onto in no uncertain terms because in the US like most places our populace will always choose the devil we know, no matter how diabolic, to the devil we don’t. That’s what Bush is banking on, all the way to the bank and the end of his term.
Pivot and attack.
Words to live by in the world of progressive politics. Thanks, Jane.
billjpa @ 22
That is Joke Line and Lieberman’s job.
Back by popular demand, a comment I made Tuesday (ok not really, but because it is STILL applicable):
I just don’t understand all the self loathing and immolation over this freaking ad. Every word in it was true. Petraeus has been shilling for Bush in a dishonorable fashion, for a military man in his position, since he made an intentional and dishonest attempt to influence the 2004 election (who knows; he may actually have) by writing his “everything is peachy in Iraq” editorial supporting the Administration in the Washington Post. Could a couple of words have been phrased more delicately in the caption; probably, but every word in the ad is true; that is what is important.
Furthermore, the fact is, it was the Surgin General’s own fellow military officers and troops that coined the term “General Betrayus”. Jam that and the fact that every single word in the ad is true right back down anybody’s throat that makes a peep. These junk concerns are exactly why we always get rolled over. It is there; beat them over the head with it any way you can. Time to quit apologizing for being impolite to a bunch of traitors that are ruining our country; and Petraeus has been belligerently right with them the whole time. I have no symapthy. Democrats should stop beating themselves up for this junk; leave the self flaggellation to Republicans in airport stalls.
billjpa @ 22
I think the ad is like Colbert’s White House Correspondants gig.
” I am shocked, shocked , I tell you that there is gambling(truth) going on here. Round up the usual suspects”
and for EE, ” I think(Thought) we were going to have a beautiful friendship”
Jane, has any campaign ever approached you about being a consultant of some sort? Just curious. I’ve gotten to know Amanda Marcotte from pandagon since she lives close by and attended our first Central Texas Firepup picnic at my place. She has a wonderfully razor-sharp pen and wit and would have been so good for the Edwards campaign. (She was one of two bloggers that got “fired” because of the naughty things they wrote about The Church.) Where is all this caution coming from? Our candidates need people like you, me, Amanda and all of the thoughtful regulars here and at the other blog sites. Hopefully at least some important person from each of the “good” campaigns is reading “us.”
What is it going to take to wake them (and Pelosi and Reid) up? Sign me frustrated. And sad . . .
BAM
excellant jane, WHENEVER a republcian says ANYTHING about Iraq, “pivot and attack”
pheonix women had an INCREDIBLE line that can be used ANYWHERE Iraq is even referanced;
she then came up with something even better and more suscinct to which I will paraphrase and add my own signature personality to which democrats can happily plaguerize if they so choose;
these moronic republicans actually bought into “the flypaper strategy” when it was CLEARLY a “fertilizer strategy”
pivot and attack…man oh man I hope there are some democrats reading your post today
Never explain, never defend…ATTAAAACK!
words of wisdom by TRex
Jane–
Good post. I especially like your suggestions about better ways to respond. Very good wording!
Bob in HI
Democratic contenders for president need to heed the message. Don’t let the left down. Do not turn rightward.
You can rightly criticize Petraeus ad nauseum for misguiding, misleading, dissembling, etc. But betrayal is the language of treason for a person in uniform. Everyone here needs to take a step back and realize that they have wholly succumbed to the Bush tactic of hiding behind our service members.
Consider that while it is certainly beneficial for Bush to not take any bullets, that it is also beneficial for Bush that a military man be the one that takes them, with the shooter plain to see. We do ourselves no favors in the long run with these sort of tactics, and anyone who thinks this went down well overall in the armed services is kidding themselves. As of now, anyone in uniform that happens to agree with his chain of command has been accused by some crunchy hippies of treason.
Petraeus implements policy as per his chain of command, he does not originate it, to paraphrase Col. Lang. I doubt many here have given an iota of thought to the alternative.
petwrecker @ 21
*G*
Gnome, when I went to YKos2 I met several bloggers attached to campaigns. Specifically, I had some interesting conversation with Biden’s bloggers the night after the conference ended.
I hope Elizabeth drops by for a mea culppa coffee. I know she has dropped by before. Has anybody let them know about this post?
schwifty @ 14
Swifty, I don’t buy it. The Betrayus meme came from Iraq, from the troops. They know what this guy is all about, and what he is about is ambition. General Petraeus wants to be President someday, and he is training for the job by being a willing tool for the current WH occupant. He has put himself in the political arena with self-serving moves like his op-ed just before the 2004 election, praising progress and predicting victory right before the election. If you think that is the proper role for a field commander, you are sorely mistaken. This general has been on the side of Team Bush, front and center, for the entire fiasco, with rosy projections about an Iraqi army that never has been what he said it was. He loses 190,000 assault rifles and calls it an accounting problem. What it is a troop problem. Allowing weapons to fall into the hands of the enemy is not a pro-troops move. That’s why he is Betrayus.
Well, at least MoveOn did not call the General a chickenshit little asskisser, you know, like his boss did.
Does anyone understand in the Clinton camp why a large block of the left has turned on her?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 40
They don’t care till the general.
Oilfieldguy @ 37
OFG,
I will Spotlight it to her campaign.I get 4 messages a week from them-(Iowa and Joe Trippi you know.)
TexBetsy @ 41
This ruffles my feathers even more.
Oilfieldguy @ 39
wow…that would be a great response as well, wouldn’t it?
“I’m glad you brought that up cris, while I would not have used the word betrayal myself it was certainly more appropriate then what his boss called him, don’t you think?”
Betsy, Biden’s bloggers? That is interesting. I want to hear more. When are you and I going to have lunch again? Is school in the way now?
schwifty @ 14
Petraeus is willing to advance himself politically by enabling the deaths of a lot of people. He is not noble, he is being political, and they are not stooping to Ann Coulter’s level to point that out — unless you are you equating her with the fellow men and women in uniform who gave Petraeus the name in the first place.
Bush sent him up there because he knew the media would be okay with going after a hack like Rumsfeld, but they’d be afraid to attack a military man. A cluster of ribbons on your chest does not make you immune to criticism if you’re acting Rumsfeld’s part now.
Gnome de Plume @ 45
Between school and Jewish holidays, things are pretty busy around. Give me two more weeks.
Very well said Jane! I haven’t read through the comments yet, but any chance Elizabeth Edwards is going to get this message?
I doubt many here have given an iota of thought to the alternative.
Interesting comment from someone who presumes to lecture us on why the choice of words matters.
TexBetsy @ 36
Biden has bloggers? They don’t seem to be getting him into a dialogue with the netroots.
Over the holidays of 1966-67, I was an enlisted man assigned to an aviation company at Ft. Lewis. After a night of drinking, some warrant officers and officers took down the photos in the company barracks of the entire chain of command, with the exception of President Johnson. They made a bonfire out behind the parking lot and burnt the photos.
The next day the CO started an investigation. For the next month, we enlisted men had to stand armed (!!) guard on the NEW chain-of-command pictures 24/7. The CO stated that this would continue until the culprits, assumed to be enlisted men, came forward. We didn’t budge. Finally, the CO must have heard the truth through some officer grapevine, and the guard duty stopped.
I imagine the term “Betrayus” is one of the gentler if most apt terms of endearment given to General
McClellan, uh, Napoleon, uh Arnold, uh…..Jim Clausen,
I remember when Jane wrote a wonderful post defending John Edwards decision to stay in the race despite his wifes health problems and reallt took the lumber to critics of that decision. Mrs. Edwards showed up on that thread and thanked Jane for the support. I was just wondering if she’ll again show up and thank Jane for contributing to her (and all other please hit me again Democrats) for the continuing education credits.
It really is a community service Lady Jane has performed here today. Anybody remember RR’s 11th commandment?
Jane, when I read the title I thought it was Elizabeth Edwards telling others to lay off MoveOn. And I thought to myself alright Elizabeth you tell’em! I was really surprised when I read your piece that she was joining with the NeoCons in the bashing of MoveOn over their ad on Petreaus. It does not seem like her to do that kind of behavior. Thank you for letting her know how that looks to the rest of us trying to be supportive of her husband in his bid for the Presidency.
After reading what Admiral Fallon said to General Petreaus’ face, I think MoveOn was actually soft on him.
SeamusD @ 38
I’d be more sympathetic to Swifty if the depressing pattern of former Bush shills recanting didn’t exist. Today we had Greenspan and in subtle way, Peter Pace. Before that we’ve had many including Powell, Paul O’Neill, etc. The ones who spoke out have been kicked to the curb. This is a group of thugs who do not have the best interest of the country and the troops at heart.
schwifty @ 14
I suggest that you take a deep breath and try to see this from another point of view.
Few people blame Petraeus for the overall mess in Iraq, clearly he’s trying to “do his job”–which includes keeping his boss happy. And just as clearly, he’s helped to cook the books on the results of the escalation, so is responsible at least to that degree.
The move.on add can hardly be compare to Coulter–read what is says! It is well-argued and supported with references, a far cry from the kind of screaming hyperbole that she puts out.
Furthermore, agree with the tactic of calling him “Betray Us” or not, it is playing into the repugs hands to complain about it. If you don’t like it, ignore it and concentrate on the underlying message of the ad. Don’t play into their game!
And Jane, where did you ever get such fine-tuned political antennae? I never cease to be impressed…
TexBetsy @ 47
Yes, I was surprised to see you on line today. Is Snarky feeling any better?
“They’re out there on the left so you can look ‘moderate.’ They’re saying what needs to be said, opening the conversation up so John Edwards isn’t considered the left-wing fringe loon that nobody should listen to.”
This is such an important point. And it should be so fucking obvious to someone like Edwards that it is, frankly, frightening that it apparently isn’t.
Have the Democrats learned nothing from the way that the Repubs and their right-wing wurlitzer have repeatedly beaten the living shit out of them for the last 13 years? For crying out loud!
BTW, there is a great post from Driftglass today related to this issue:
http://driftglass.blogspot.com.....ation.html
schwifty @ 34
This guy put himself in the path as Bush’s cover man, and Bush had to go through quite a few generals to find the one who would parrot his talking points rather than resign. Patraeus is a symbol for all that is wrong at the Pentagon. Political generals who sacrifice troops for ambition. He signed on top Team Bush, and he’s getting what he deserves for pimping for Chimpy. He is not well liked or respected in the Army, his boss, Admiral Fallon, called him an “ass kissing little chickenshit”. I agree.
There does exist a “vast right wing conspiracy (neo-cons, Grover Norquist, O’Reilly, Rush, Halliburton, Kissinger, etc.)”. They need no direct or accidental support from the wives of presidential candidates. Or presidential contenders, for that matter.
Ed*ard Teller @ 51
ET,
I was in HS and college ROTC in the late ’60s/early ’70s. The Army Officer’s Guide at that time still contained the following statement” “The Enlisted Man is a devious and conniving person and not to be trusted…”
PeterK @ 55
I read Digby.
I completely agree with Jane. We can’t stop the war unless we knock down the surrogates that Bush uses to advance his lies - whoever those surrogates may be.
Bush chose Petraeus to give a report to Congress precisely because Bush knew Petraeus would get a free pass from the media to reissue Bush’s bad faith claims about the war. Bush’s credibility was shot and he needed a new spokesman to deliver the same old propaganda.
With the ad, MoveOn knocked down Bush’s new spokesman - thus exposing Bush again as the man behind the curtain. I don’t think the Reblicans thought anyone on our side had the guts to do it.
It turns out, Move On had the guts. Thank goodness.
Mr. Sandman @ 4
Still wondering what can be done, and waiting for answers/suggestions/ideas. I see two major problems here:
1) The candidates so far aren’t proficient at mastering public relations/attack modes as they should be. Jane’s admonishment of Mrs. Edwards is part of the remedy for that.
2) How to reform the Corporate Media so that we can expand the “message machine,” as Jane puts it. I think this is crucial; we can have a candidate that says and does all the right things in interviews, press releases, and so on, but still face a Corporate Media that sits on its hands and does nothing.
The way I see it, do #1 first, then concentrate on #2. But as I said, how to do both simultaneously?
I have no problem whatsoever blasting a member of my party, if necessary.
This also equates somewhat to Digby’s coming out announcement when she said something to the effect after the 2000 election the media joined with the right wing and told the rest of us Bush is President and we should get over it…to which Digby responed, “I have never gotten over it.”
Waving to Jane and all the firepups…gotta go do laundry…yuckk
Col Ted Westhuling accused Betrayus of worse in his “suicide” note questioning the corruption and human rights abuses - I am sullied no more and given Betrayus’s tactics of bombing residential neighborhoods and “pacification” such as in Fallujah where thug police “arrest” anyone they feel like and the residents cannot drive to hospitals and have trouble even getting food, I’d say Betrayus got off light in the MoveOn ad. And our candidates - and their spokespeople like Elizabeth - should start owning up to the real horror that is this occupation.
Well said Jane - well said!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 59
Myself, I always prefer to call it a “vast right wing industry” (thanks to Mark Shields). Seems a bit more apt, no?
SeamusD @ 38
The foxhole etymology of Betrayus is totally irrelevant in the face of a full page in the NYTimes that was then rolled up, chambered, and fired back at us by the wingnuts. I am not disputing that Petraeus is not incompetent to some degree, self-serving in the extreme, politically ambitious, and so on. But there are a thousand ways to say that without resorting to the LANGUAGE OF TREASON, which is precisely what Elizabeth Edwards said. And in fact, the narrative around here doesn’t seem to worry as much about the merits of the ad so much as the tactical campaign value of nibbling the hand that feeds you.
So allow me to turn the tables. Why was it necessary to invoke treachery and treason to knock the bark off of Petraeus? THAT to me is the relevant point, and I don’t think it should be superceded by worrying over whether moveon’s feelings are hurt.
TexasEllen @ 8
When I marched in the demonstration in DeeCee today, my sign said
Glad some of us can remember these advertising slogans.
Gnome, Snarky is doing much better. I, on the other hand, am having lots of leg pain and trying hard to distract myself.
—
The Biden folks were bloggers and his advance team. The AFL CIO debate was two days after YKos, and they were sticking around to work on his participation and interviews around that.
Great post Jane!
Why is it that when anyone left of center says anything controversial (and in this case, I too, believe Petraeus is an enabler of death) that Democrats are expected to apologize, denounce, or distance themselves from it? I don’t hear the Republicans apologizing for anything, ever! Screw ‘em! I’m tired of this crap. Attack back!
I met Elizabeth Edwards and she is at least as classy and warm in person as she is on teevee. But, I have repeatedly asked Edwards’ campaign, and her, about what it meant when Edwards told the Herzliya conference in Israel that “Americans can be educated to come along with what needs to be done with Iran.” I have yet to get any answer beyond Elizabeth saying that she was sure he would not use any weapons that I would find unacceptable. Meaning, nuclear, I suppose.
I really like the guy on domestic policy, but I would like to know that he has learned something from the Iraq vote, and would not get us into another war. The silence in response to three separate inquiries from someone who self-identifies as an Iowa precinct captain says to me that they don’t think I’ll like the answer.
Jane Hamsher @ 61
Oh don’t be so modest!
schwifty @ 68
Do you think the MoveOn ad would have gotten ANY attention if they had been nice and polite and bland?
We can all answer that with a resounding NO.
Yes, never respond to the substance of an issue. We libs need to pivot and dodge because arguing the merits is too dangerous and tends to reveal our real thinking. Stick to revealing only our thoughtful, diverse and nuanced positions by repeating the daily Democratic talking points.
Jane wrote: When offered the opportunity to cudgel your own side, you pivot and attack.
The people who are shreiking about the Petraeus ad are the same shills who failed to denounce Ann Coulter when she smeared the 9/11 widows for ‘enjoying martrhood’.
MoveOn could have sent Petraeus flowers, and the wingnuts woud have shrieked that MoveOn is unAmerican. The wingnuts were desparate to use anything — ANYTHING — they could puff up to distract from the rank hypocrisy of a US General shilling to cover Bush’s ass on 9/11.
The wingnuts would have gone into a rabid frenzy if MoveOn had dropped a gum wrapper.
This isn’t about the ad. It’s about the intensity of wingnut desparation, aggressiveness, and the fact that they’re used to getting what they want via intimidation. Their ideas cannot win on the merits; they always have to intimidate, lie, cheat, or steal in order to ‘win’. Which makes their victories Phyrric.
Stand your ground. Always. Always. Always.
Damn, Jane. You hit the bullseye with this post.
We needed to hear from Adm. Fallon in tandem w/Petraeus & Crocker, not those two alone. That we didn’t fortells much.
As for E. Edwards’ reaction to the MovOn ad- dealt & passed.
Elizabeth- don’t ever again be thought to be on the bandwagon created by the GWB administration. It leads ultimately to the same place they will end up…
Why is it I don’t hear any in my party questioning the motives of DLC?
Mauimom @ 69
Mauimom, how did that go?
Here’s some substance for ya:
dakine01 @ 74
I thought the Move On ad was stupid at the time and got my ass handed to me on the Lake and I still think it was stupid.
schwifty @ 68
You seem to miss the point here. First of all, I don’t think move.on’s feelings are hurt. Quite the contrary, the attention they are getting is an enormous lever and opportunity for them, and I hope they can make good use of it. It’s very hard, if not impossible, to “knock the bark off Petraeus” in any useful way without media exposure. Secondly, the fuss on FDL is to large extent about the dems playing into the rethug game by agreeing (publicly, I mean) that the ad is insulting, etc. If you think that it is (and certainly left wing people differ on that), OK, but don’t make a public point of it. Rather, use the opportunity to drive home the important arguments re Iraq.
Oilfieldguy @ 39
“;-)))))
Too right!
I don’t quite agree with Jane. I think there is away to disagree without repeating the Republicans “talking points” or “spin”. Somewhere in between what Hillary did with Kerry’s comment (attacking Kerry and looking like a fool doing it) and now Elizabeth Edwards in regard to Move on’s add.
Elizabeth could simply say “I did not like it, but ” as Chris Matthews said “no one has died due to this add”. Somewhere in between bending over to the left (the really right” Ha) and repeating the Republicans over the top spin, which as Jane has said (and I agree with) gives them ammunition to spend more time on this add.
I love almost everything Elizabeth Edwards has to say. Did you ever hear her one hour interview with Diane Rehm. If you have not all ready fallen in love with her..listen and you will.
http://www.wamu.org/programs/dr/06/10/02.php#11424
Jane, WHAT A POST! So right that when the other side only knows attack, you can only survive by becoming a better attacker. Especially when your opponents JUST CAN’T TAKE IT. No fucking mercy, they never had any for us or anybody else that refused to blindly follow their dictates.
Edwards is my preferred candidate, I think he’s got the right stuff and maybe even a soul to boot, and I absolutely LOVE Elizabeth, but she made a serious mistake here, and needed to have it pointed out to her. If she is the woman I believe her to be, she will be grateful for the education.
To Schwifty, if you perceive Petraeus as a “hostage,” then he is certainly the most willing hostage since they invented the Stockholm syndrome. If he chooses to corrupt his military role by playing and spinning in the political and PR arena, he deserves to take the legitimate hits, and this one was very legitimate, IMO. And I think his boss, Admiral Fallon, probably understands him a lot better than you do. I’m just sayin’.